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Mikhael

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  • How an anti-Semitic US law helped bring about Israel's creation
    • Emory Riddle June 2, 2018, 8:59 am
      Always the victim. The only victim

      You wish. To your dismay, never again a victim, Giles/Uncle99b/oldjoe5.

  • 'NY Times' covers up Israel's killing of nonviolent protesters along the Gaza border
    • Mooser May 30, 2018, 8:11 pm
      ” Now that the aims of Zionism are a reality,” “Mikhael”

      Now the “aims of Zionism are a reality”? Thanks, “Mikhael”, from the first I’ve always thought: “Those mamzers have it in for us.” Thanks for confirming.

      The aims of modern political Zionism became a reality a little over 70 years ago, on 5 Iyyar 5708, when the Jewish People regained sovereignty in its ancestral homeland and when the era of Jewish victimhood ceased. It's weird that you think the cessation of victim status for the Jewish People means that someone has it in for you. Since in all likelihood you don't have that much longer to live, you should be comforted by the fact that you won't have that much longer to suffer through the daily reality of a strong and vibrant sovereign Jewish nation-state existing in the historical national homeland of the Jews.

    • Keith April 23, 2018, 1:00 am
      Get some therapy! If you must be a Judeocentric, EGOCENTRIC justifier of murder, at least be succinct

      I'd suggest that you get some therapy, but you've made it clear that you can't imagine any situation when an Israeli citizen (Jewish or otherwise) has any right to defend his or her life when threatened by someone who claims to be acting on behalf of Palestinian Arab rights. Since you are so obviously a sociopath, therapy will be useless to you. Nevertheless, I'll explain again, for the benefit of any unpoisoned minds who may read this.
      "Murder" refers to an intentional homicide when there is no clear threat to one's self or others. A killing in self-defense, or in order to protect others' lives, is not definable as murder. It's very obvious to unbiased people that the IDF and Israel Border Poilce personnel stationed at Israel's border with the Hamas-controlled quasi-state entity in Gaza had a reasonable fear for their lives or grievous bodily injury last months when tens of thousands of people attempted to storm the border fence. Most of those killed were members of the Hamas terror gang and this was confirmed by the explicit admission of the official spokesmen of the Hamas terror gang regime, and they were killed when they were attempting to inflict death or bodily harm by blunt force truma (the harmless tones) or 3rd-degree burns (Molotov cocktails). The IDF and Israel Border Police don't have a moral obligations to lay down their arms when rocks are being thrown at them or when firebombs are being aimed at them and to accept blunt force trauma or 3rd-degree burns; but they do have a moral right to protect their own physical safety , and to use lethal force when necessary. Of course their own physical safety is secondary to the physical safety of the Israeli citizens they are sworn to protect. Their first duty is not to allow the border fence that separates Israel from the Hamas-controlled quasi-state entity to be breached. Many of the Gazans who were shot were engaged in attempting to tear down the border fence. Of course, this could have been avoided if they had the sense to stay away from the border. Israel does not have a moral duty to allow who knows how many terror gang members to enter its territory from the quasi state entity in Gaza and cause mayhem such as suicide bombing attacks and kidnapings in Israeli cities.

      Read what Chomsky said

      Why should I credit Chomsky, a defender of totalitarian regimes? Chomsky is no more a moral authority than Trotsky was.

      The white man’s burden was/is to vilify his victims in order to justify his crimes.

      It's weird that you assume I am Ashkenazi. I am a Jew and an Israeli citizen and like more than half of my fellow citizens, I am of of Mizrahi/Sefaradi heritage (although my mother is Ashkenazi). But why are you so obsessed with who is Ashkenazi and in what way is it relevant? There really is no difference between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim/Sefaradim in Israel. Our national identity is the same -- Jewish.

      The Ashkenazi man’s burden additionally makes the writer ramble endlessly and incoherently

      Rambling? You're the one who can't focus and is bringing up a non sequitur and generalizing about a group of people whose ancestors were part of the Jewish Diaspora in Central and Eastern Europe.

      in order for the victimizer to claim victimhood

      Claim victimhood? Oh, no, no, no, no. You've got it bassackwards. One thing any self-respecting Israeli (whether he is of Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sefaradi, or whatever background in the Diaspora) won't do is ever, ever, ever, willingly assume the mantle of "victim." The whole point in being independent in our land again is that we are NOT VICTIMS. Now that the aims of Zionism are a reality, the era where Jews were victims has permanently ended. We dance on the faces of those who want us to be victims. Victimhood is just not cool.

    • Keith April 21, 2018, 1:04 am
      MIKHAEL- “Jews enjoy safety because we enjoy our independence in our homeland and we are not scattered and defenseless.”

      The notion that Israel contributes to Jewish security is Zionist BS. Pray, tell us how? Murdering Palestinians protesting the blockade of Gaza makes Jews more secure?

      Hi again, stupid. I'll try yet again to break it down again for you step by step in a way very simple minds like yours might be able to comprehend (unfortunately though, you're also far too hateful to absorb and learn anything even when I am kindly explaining things in a way that other stupid people may be able to understand). Point number 1. The blockade against Gaza makes Israel and its citizens safer. Point number 2. The majority of Israeli citizens are Jews, thus the blockade makes Jews safer. Point number 3. The reason the IDF blockade on Gaza makes Israeli citizens and residents and visitors (Jews and non-Jews) safer is that Gaza is a quasi state entity controlled by a hostile regime that has made outright genocidal threats against Israel and Jews. Point number 4.The threats made against Israel by Hamas and Israeli civilians are not mere empty rhetoric, they have a long history of terror operations against, including suicide bombs in Israel going back decades and rocket and mortar attacks from the Gaza enclave that they control and which they have admitted is not in any way occupied by Israel. Point number 5. The IDF blockade makes it more difficult for Hamas (and other terror gangs operating in Gaza) to obtain rockets and mortars and other types of war materiel to kill Israelis with. It is not 100% effective, as all blockades can be circumvented through various means, but it definitely curtails the amount and the quality of rockets and other type of weaponry Hamas can obtain. This is a good thing. Point number 6 An end to the Israeli blockade would enable Hamas (and other affiliate terror gangs operating in Gaza) to obtain more and higher-quality rockets and missiles and mortars and guns to kill Israelis with. Point number 7 The protests are intended to create pressure on Israel to ease up or end the blockade so that more weapons and rockets and missiles can be brought into Gaza to kill Israelis with. Point number 8 The IDF soldiers and Border Police (including Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel) are tasked with protecting the border and enforcing the blockade. Point number 9 the throngs who have been provoked by Hamas to mass at the border have attempted to cut down the fence, which prevents armed terrorists from Gaza from entering Israel and have thrown firebombs and stones at the IDF/Border Police troops who guard the border and protecting their fellow citizens. Point number 10. Incendiary devices like Molotov cocktails can cause serious injury or death.Point number 11 Throwing an incendiary device like a Molotov cocktail is not a peaceful protest and is intended to cause serious injury or death. Point number 12 An armed soldier guarding a border and enforcing a blockade which is meant to prevent armed terrorists from entering his or her country and preventing a fanatic terror gang regime from obtaining higher-quantity and higher-quality weapons has an absolute moral right to protect himself or herself from someone heaving a rock that can seriously injure and sometimes kill people or a Molotov cocktail that can burn or kill. Point number 13 An armed soldier who sees someone who has hurled or is about to hurl a Molotov cocktail, or a rock, has a right to shoot such a person; there is no obligation to take the risk of possibly burning to death or even having their nose broken by a rock.

      According to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have to be slaughtered before they (ineffectually) respond with bottle rockets?

      Fajrs, Grads al Quds and even Qassams are not bottle rockets. Bottle rockets don't severely damage buildings and cause roofs to collapse and kill people. You usually have to get in to very close range to potentially hurt someone with a "bottle rocket". (Like the so-called peaceful protesters at the fence aiming "bottle rocket"-type devices directly at the faces of IDF/Border Guard personnel just yards away have recently been doing.) But the aforementioned Qassams, al Quds, Grads, and Fajrs have destroyed buildings and killed and maimed dozens of Israelis. Those are not "bottle rockets". Things like "bottle rockets," however, are currently being used now to try to wound or blind IDF soldiers at the borders while claiming peaceful protest in order to increase pressure on OIsrael to end the blockade on Gaza so Hamas can get more Fajrs and Grads and Khaibars and who knows what else. And of course it's normal for an IDF soldier/Border Police who observes someone aiming a "bottle rocket" directly at him to assume that the person aiming it wants to injure or kill him and has the has a right and duty to use means to protect himself, including lethal force. Any military or police officer has the same right, anywhere in the world. If you go up to your friendly Seattle cop and shoot bottle rockets at him or her from close range you should assume that you will be shot. (Again, for the record, I don't encourage you to try this, the cop may actually be hurt and they might miss you and hurt an innocent bystander and we would not either of those two things to happen.)

      The kill ratio says it all, who is the victim and who the victimizer?

      Oh, I agree that we Israelis, as a society, are definitely not victims. Victims don't defend themselves. There's nothing noble about being a victim. There are definitely innocent Palestinian Arab civilians who are victimized, because the terror gang regime that controls Gaza insists on siting its rocket launchers, arsenals and terror operatives where they live.

      But you don’t care at all about the Palestinians

      It is unfortunate that despite best efforts, Israel, when it is forced to confront Hamas and take steps to minimize and eradicate rockets and other weapons, cannot 100% prevent civilian casualties when engaging an enemy in a densely populated civilian area. I have suggested several times now that you encourage Hamas and the other terror gangs to relocate their operatives and their weapons stockpiles to some of the empty areas in Gaza (there are still many such areas despite the propaganda that there is not) and then the IDF can eliminate them without endangering civilian life or limb.

      just about the few Jews who died as a result of the ineffectual retaliation.

      As I have demonstrated several times already, many of the Israeli citizens (as well as non-citizens temporarily residing in Israel) who have been killed or severely wounded by hostile action from Gaza have been non-Jews. They are my fellow citizens (and in the case of Thai workers and others who have been killed by Hamas rocket and mortar fire, guests of my country) and our army has the same duty to protect them as it does for the Jewish citizens of Israel.

      Why don’t you spend some time in Gaza to establish your tikkun olam bonafides?

      What does "tiqun olam" have to do with it? That is a Mishnaic (disucssed in the tractate of "Gittin" regarding divorces) and later a Qabalastic concept that has to do with prayer and holy acts and prayer to restore "God's" essence to the world after the shattered shards of divine luminescence were lost in the firmament of creation. I am an atheist-leaning agnostic and I certainly don't believe in such nonsense. It has nothing to do with what later movements in Judaism have distorted it into. However, I always try to do my small part to make the world a better place in the way the the modern Jewish movements have distorted the ancient concept of "tiqqun olam" , although there's only so much one person can do. I do my recycling and am kind to my neighbors and people I meet, evenfor a New Yorker, I donate to charities to the extent I am able (I have three kids to support and NYC is an expensive town), I ride my bicycle and try to reduce my carbon footprint. And I am not filled with bile against people because of their national identity, country of origin, their religion or lack thereof, as you clearly are against one very specific group.

      Hateful freaks? ... Am I attempting to justify murder?

      Umm...yes. You clearly dismiss Israeli fatalities as a result of Hamas rockets and mortars (not to mention suicide bombings and other outrages committed by Hamas over the years) as "the few Jews who died as a result of the ineffectual retaliation". What can that possibly mean other than that you think Hamas has a natural right to kill a few Jews (never mind that not all of their victims in Israel have been Jews -- also let's not forget they've killed plenty of their rivals in Gaza as well) and themilitary of the Jewish State has no right to take steps to prevent them form killing more Israeli citizens (whether Jews or non-Jews). I asked you before to try a thought experiment and play pretend, under what circumstances would you concede that Israel ever has a right to use force against Hamas?

      I have nothing but contempt for you.

      Well, that is exactly the kind of comment a Jew-hating freak would make.

    • guyn April 20, 2018, 11:51 pm
      When forced into confrontation with Hamas and other terror gangs, the IDF…

      More often than not, Israel initiates the confrontations.

      https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/infographic-who-violates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians

      https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/

      Propagandists like Abunimah push the narrative that Israel violated ceasefires with Hamas, and dupes like you lick it up, but Hamas never agreed to any ceasefire with Israel for Israel to violate. What Hamas has agreed to at times and which they, as radical Islamist fundamentalist zealots, deem "halal" when it comes to dealings with Jewish infidels is merely a tahadiya (‏تهدئة‎), which is not a cease fire or a long-term truce. The word translates to a "calming down". So many of the alleged Israeli violations occurred after incidents in which gangs like Islamic Jihad or Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which are affiliated fanatic Jew-hating terror gangs operating out of Hamas-controlled Gaza, launched rockets at Israel. Hamas (and Western propagandists like the American, Abunimah) will then accuse Israel of a "cease fire violation" because, after all, it wasn't technically Hamas that initiated attacks (just an affiliated gang that operates with Hamas's permission out of the territory that Hamas controls) when Israel takes steps aimed at reducing the ability of these terror gangs to launch additional rockets and uncritical, unthinking people like you lap it up. Also, many of the so-called Israeli "violations" during tahidiya periods were actions against Hamas gang members outside Gaza. Hamas claims that they undertook an obligation not to launch rockets from Gaza at Israeli cities (although Islamic Jihad and al Aqsa Martyr Brigades regard themselves as exempt and Hamas does little to rein them in), but they still reserve the right to continue their "armed resistance" elsewhere. So when Israel has actionable intelligence about a Hamas (or an affiliated terror gang) cell from the "West Bank" (to use a name applied by the Hashemites for that region) planning an attack and takes steps to neutralize such threats, propagandists for Hamas cite this as an Israeli "cease fire violation". One other neat little self-serving thing about a tahadiya under Hamas's interpretation of Islamic law (ignored by dupes like you) is that the Muslim party to a tahadiya "cease fire" has the exclusive unilateral right to announce the end of the tahadiya (when it's convenient for them) without it being considered a "violation," but if the non-Muslim party does so, it's "no fairsies" and a violation of the tahadiya.

      “how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets?”

      Same thing for Hamas: how many deaths, how many shooting of Palestinians are they required to suffer before it is allowed to respond?

      The sole purpose of Hamas (and affiliate terror gangs) firing rockets and mortars at Israeli population centers from Gaza is to murder and maim Israel civilians and cause mayhem to the Israeli economy, and because these rockets only relatively infrequently actually manage to kill or severely wound Israeli civilians (dozens have been killed, scores have been severely wounded, including people needing amputations and being blinded, thousands have been less severely wounded (burns, lesions) and hundreds of thousands have been traumatized (since scores of Israeli civilians have actually been killed and maimed and burned and blinded by the Hamas rockets and mortars),not to mention the billions of dollars of damage inflicted on the Israeli economy through property damage and the cost of developing, maintaining and using our largely effective Iron Dome Defense system), it would seem as if the relatively low number of Israelis killed is not enough to satisfy your and the average Mondoweiss fellow traveler's blood lust, however, we Israelis don't dismiss or disregard our casualties, and we are NOT SORRY that we haven't accommodated the desires of Hamas/Islamic Jihad/al Aqsa Martyr Brigades and the likes of guyn for more dead Israelis. We take comfort that our blockade on Gaza has been somewhat effective (not completely) in preventing Hamas from obtaining war materiel in higher quantities and of higher quality (Hamas has succeeded in acquiring better and more sophisticated rockets like Fajrs and Grads and they probably have Khaibars, as opposed to the primitive Qassam types, which have longer range and do more damage and they have put them to use) that will make it easier for them to endanger the lives of our citizens. IYou prefer otherwise. You prefer that we lift the blockade completely in order for Hamas to obtain more and better rockets so that they can more easily kill Israelis. While it's patently obvious that you think more dead people in Israel (especially if they are Jews, although as I've shown repeatedly, these indiscriminate attacks have also claimed the lives of my Arab fellow citizens of Israel as well as non-Jewish residents or guest workers in Israel) is a desirable outcome, try a little empathy and try to understand why an Israeli citizen with close family members who live very close to Gaza might not agree with that proposition.
      Unlike Hamas rockets launched toward Israel, which have a sole aim to kill or maim, or at the very least cause panic in our society and damage to our economy, the purpose of Israeli attacks on Gaza is to target Hamas rocket-launching sites and command centers and to prevent that regime (and its affiliate proxies) from launching rockets at Israeli population centers. A good way for Hamas to guarantee the safety of the civilians it claims to "protect" would be to disarm and forswear any and all military confrontation with Israel; then there would be no need for Israel to take steps at eliminating (or at the very least reducing) Hamas's rocket stockpile and the terror gang members and commanders who use this arsenal against Israel. If they won't repudiate violence and insist on confrontation, a good way to protect innocent civilian lives in Gaza would be for Hamas to move all of its launchers and the terror gang personnel who operate the rocket launchers, as well as the higher-level commanders who tell them when to launch the rockets, as well as the political operatives in Hamas who decide policy, to uninhabited areas (despite the fact that Gaza is densely populated, there are still open areas), far enough away from innocent civilians so as not to cause risk to life or limb, that way the IDF can efficiently eradicate these rockets and assist these Hamas members to attain their fervent wish to become martyrs. That way no civilians will be harmed. Or Hamas can announce that they are looking forward to peaceful and neighborly relations, an end to military confrontation and a renunciation of calls for the slaughter of Jews as contrary to the principles of Islam and and a recognition of a Jewish state in the ancestral homeland of the Jews, EreṢ Yisrae'el and then the two parties can proceed to iron out the details of borders and trade relations and all that good stuff. It's sad though that brainwashed freaks like you, living in Canada facilitate Palestinian Arab intransigence and encourage them to continue with a war against Israel that they'll never win. I'm an optimist though, so I believe that in 50, 100, 150 years or so there's a chance they'll moderate their position.

    • guyn April 20, 2018, 5:55 pm

      “You are a moral simpleton and your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”

      Not for the rest of humanity, but for the Palestinians from whom you stole the territory.

      Thank you for openly admitting your hatred and bigotry and saying that Jews and Jews alone are required to forfeit their safety and security in order to demonstrate a concern for Palestinian Arabs, including those in Gaza who live in a self-governing quasi-state entity that is not ruled by Israel and which you yet seem to think was "stolen" by Israel. You just said it yourself. We Israeli Jews don't have a right to safety and security.

      By the way, you have said you are an Israeli but you bear an uncanny resemblance with a guy from Montréal with the same first name, a converted Jews who worked at McGill University. Purely coincidental, indeed.

      By the way, you should know that "Guy" (גיא) is also a common Hebrew given name in Israel. It means "valley" Are you by any chance related to my pal Guy Nissim? His initials were also "guyn" when I think of it. What a great guy is GUY. But in this case, it's purely coincidental. Anywa, you're only off by a few hundred miles. My Sephardic/Mizrahi Israeli father (17 generations of his family were born in EreṢ Yisra'el, in Ṣfat (Safed) and in Jerusalem) was offered a post-doc fellowship at McGill but ultimately accepted one at MIT (so I like to joke that I'm almost Canadian), and my (Hungarian-Ashkenazi immigrant background) Israeli mother did her Master's at Northeastern University. That's how I came to be born in Boston (and I was raised mostly in NYC and Israel, with a short sojourn in Nebraska) . I've visited Montreal twice (I liked it!), once as a kid and once in my early 20s. I even spent one night in a dorm room on the McGill campus, I think, because it was summer break it was temporarily converted into budget hostel lodging. But that was back in 1992 and I haven't been back since. I live in NYC (I earn more money in NYC than I can earn in Israel and I have an American daughter from one marriage that I help support as well as Israeli daughters living in Israel from another marriage that I help support). The income I would earn in Israel wouldn't enable me to support my daughterr in the USA. Additionally, my octogenarian mother doesn't want to move back to Israel after spending decades in the US, and as my many of my siblings are in back in Israel, she also relies on me to be a part-time caregiver.

    • Keith April 20, 2018, 5:18 pm

      MIKHAEL- “… your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”
      Have you gone mad? Safety and security? Currently, Jews are perhaps the safest minority on the face of the planet. It is only Zionist ideological propaganda which claims otherwise.

      Jews enjoy safety because we enjoy our independence in our homeland and we are not scattered and defenseless. You have a problem with this. You prefer Jews who are unable to defend themselves. To people like you, that is the natural and correct state of affairs.

      . Over the last ten years, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have been killed by Israel? How many Israelis have been killed by Gazan bottle rockets?

      So far, none have been killed directly by "Gazan bottle rockets," but dozens of Israeli citizens (including my fellow Israeli citizens who belong to the Arab minority in Israel) have been killed by rockets of the Qassam, Fajr and Grad varieties, as well as mortars fired by the terror gang maniacs from Gaza aimed at Israeli population centers. (One is too many.) When forced into confrontation with Hamas and other terror gangs, the IDF has reduced the number of rockets in Hamas's (and associated terror gangs') arsenals, while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum. There is no such thing, however, as urban warfare in a densely populated civilian area (the terrain Israel is forced to operate in against Hamas) in which there will not be civilian casualties. It would be a good thing if, next time, Hamas and the other terror gangs would remove themselves from civilian neighborhoods so that IDF can eradicate them more efficiently without risking innocent civilian lives. Do you think you can convince them to take that step?.

      What is the kill ratio?

      Just out of curiosity, according to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets? Do you think that Israel would have a right to take steps against Hamas (and other terror gangs) , if, theoretically, it would be possible to guarantee that not one single Palestinian Arab would be harmed? Because basically what I am seeing you and other morally deformed specimens say here is that hamas (and other terror gangs) have a right to shoot rockets into Iserael as much as they want in the name of "protest" and "self-defense" and because they only once in a while manage to kill or maim an Israeli citizen, and because we know that if Israel takes military steps to reduce or eradicate rocket-launching sites by bombing those sites in Gaza there is a high probability that some civilians who are in proximity will eventually be harmed or killed, Israel has to just shrug and tolerate rockets launched at it from Gaza and console itself that only once in a while will Hamas actually manage to kill someone. Additionally, you are saying that Israel must end the blockade on Gaza, and let the Hamas regime in power there import whatever war materiel it wants unhindered, because that means they can upgrade their ability to kill Israelis (which is what has happened during the truces, actually, they upgraded from relatively crude Qassams to Grads and Fajrs, all of which they put to use to kill Israelis).

      Yet you talk of safety and security for Jews (but not for the Palestinians).

      No. I'm talking of safety and security for the citizens and legal residents of Israel (whether they are Jews or Arabs or others). It's a given that Jews collectively will not be in danger as long as Israel exists, however. The best way to guarantee the safety and security of innocent Palestinian Arabs in Gaza is for the government in charge of that quasi-state entity to not fire rockets into the territory of a neighboring state and not join the radicalized elements of the population to mass themselves at the border with a neighboring state and try to cut the border fence while chanting "Death to the Jews" and acting a threatening manner towards IDF and Israeli Border Police personnel. You mentioned "bottle rockets" before, and this is where Hamas has actually used "bottle rockets." Shooting bottle rockets from several yards away directly at the face of armed police or military personnel is likely to get someone killed anywhere in the world. I would suggest to you,if you don't believe me, that you attempt such an experiment by aiming and shooting a "bottle rocket" at your friendly neighborhood cop and see what happens. But I wouldn't want him or her to get hurt (bottle rockets fired at close range can cause serious injury and burns) and when he/she shoots at you there is a danger that an innocent bystander might also be shot. (I'm not that concerned about what happens to you.) So, for the record, I actually don't encourage you to try this.

      Have you ever read Nazi propaganda? Even during the height of the Holocaust, the Nazis claimed that Germans were facing an existential threat from international Jewry.

      Another fail and so damn unoriginal. Of course, Israel doesn't make a claim that Palestinian Arab terror is threat to the existence of our state. The hostile Hamas terror-gang regime that governs the quasi-state entity in Gaza does however represent a threat to the lives and physical well-being of Israeli citizens (including non-Jewish citizens of Israel). Hamas rockets don't discriminate -- when a Grad rocket scores a direct hit on a house and collapses a roof on someone or when the shrapnel flies everywhere, these "bottle rockets" don't know if it's a Jew or an Arab victim. Also, remind me about the years of terror attacks Germany had to endure from Jews, remind me about the Jewish enclave next to Germany that launches thousands of rockets at German cities.
      It was BS of course, but your claims of a threat to Jews are eerily similar.
      And of course it should go without saying, were it not for the fact that I'm engaging with a deranged and stupid person, that unlike Nazi Germany, which sought to biologically exterminate every single last Jew everywhere on the planet on the grounds of their racial theories (including people who were descended from Jewish grandparents who had been baptized into the Jesus-cult and didn't even know they were Jews) Israel has never sought to exterminate the various Arabic-speaking non-Jews who have assumed a "Palestinian" national identity in recent decades and has repeatedly sought territorial compromise with them, so that they may enjoy a form of statehood and self-governance in one part of EreṢ Yisra'el (which foreigners named "Palestine," a name which was never traditionally used by Arabs for the entire country until recent times).

      The notion that militarily powerful Israel is facing a threat to its safety and security from demonstrators protesting the immoral blockade of Gaza

      Let's pretend that you are capable of thinking and let's try to do a thought experiment. Let's imagine that the IDF brass on orders from the defense minister and chief of staff and the PM simply ordered all of its soldiers to stand down and not to engage with any of the tens of thousands of people who had been instigated to amass themselves at the border. with wire cutters and incendiary devices. Just step back and lower all weapons. When they cut through the fence and start showering IDF troops with stones and Molotov cocktails, since we are pretending to live in a strange moral universe where your warped Mondo morality applies, the only options the IDF should have is to run away crying or let themselves be burned to death or stoned to death. Because, ya know, it's just mean if an IDF soldier with a sniper rifle wounds or kills an "unarmed protester" who is trying to kill him or his friends. And so, let's imagine that the fence gets knocked down, the IDF soldiers piss their pants and run when they see the crowd. Then what? Freedom for Gaza and the residents of the Strip will shower all the citizens of Israel with love and friendship? Everybody will live happily ever after, right? I know you're not very bright, but you're not that stupid as to actually believe that, are you? Convince me that will be the result and I will try to convince all the people I know in the IDF to stand down or not serve.

      therefore, had to murder many and seriously injure hundreds more (planned in advance) is morally reprehensible and harkens back to a dark time

      Yes, Hamas planned this in advance and was warned that Israel will protect its border and that IDF soldiers will value their own lives before the lives of anyone who is threatening threatening their lives or safety. That is right, moral and just and it is the operating principle of any country and any military or police personnel anywhere in the world, not just Israel. It is morally reprehensible that you think an IDF soldier or MAGAVnik (border police) -- whether a Jewish soldier/border police or an Arab Muslim or a Muslim Circassian soldier or a Christian soldier or a Druze soldier in the IDF/MAGAV has no right to protect himself or herself or his or her friends when a lunatic hurls a Molotov cocktail at them by using lethal means (if necessary) to protect himself or herself against someone who is attempting to use potentially lethal means against him or her. Heaved rocks and incendiary devices are not means of peaceful protest.

      is a fitting description based upon your total support, not just for Israel per se, but for the horrible acts of the Jewish state

      I totally support Israel's right to exist and I am totally confident that it will exist as a Jewish nation-state until such time as all nation-states cease to exist. Hateful freaks like you have a problem with Jews living in their own independent polity in their own historical national homeland; but that's your problem. Unfortunately, hateful freaks like you help encourage intransigence among the Palestinian Arabs and prevent a possible compromise that could enable them to obtain a sovereign state of their own (the first Palestinian Arab state -- ever!) in some parts of the former British Mandate of Palestine between the Jordan iver and the Mediterranean Sea in which they constitute the majority.

    • Keith April 18, 2018, 8:22 pm
      MIKHAEL- ” It would have been a pleasure to have the privilege to serve at the same time my daughters are in uniform.”

      Your uncritical loyalty to your one and only fatherland is duly noted.

      Another attribution without evidence. Like all Israeli citizens, including my non-Jewish fellow citizens, I enjoy and freely exercise the right of freedom of speech to criticize my government on matters of policy and conscience on many issues.

      Israel uber alles

      You'd never catch me saying that Israel is above all else and you have no evidence of me expressing such sentiments. Like your earlier empty allegation that I don't care about human beings who are not Jewish, this assertion is devoid of evidence. You are a moral simpleton and your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity. But it never works that way, not even for Jews. I am of course, proud of Israel's humanitarian efforts throughout the globe:
      http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Aid/Pages/Israel_humanitarian_aid.aspx
      https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/world/middleeast/israel-syria-humanitarian-aid.html
      I have encouraged my daughters to volunteer for search-and-rescue training when they get drafted into the IDF next year; in addition to the fact that Israel is in an earthquake zone and is due for a major temblor, IDF teams have recently contributed to earthquake relief in Mexico, as they have in Nepal and Haiti and Turkey and Armenia in the past.
      http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Israeli-trained-volunteers-aid-rescue-efforts-following-Mexico-earthquake-505602
      Most of the beneficiaries have been non-Jews.

    • Keith April 19, 2018, 3:17 pm
      MIKHAEL- “There is nothing illegal or inhumane about the blockade Israel has imposed on Gaza….”

      Of course there is. The ongoing occupation of Gaza ...

      Whatever Israeli "occupation" of Gaza existed ended completely in 2005, and the very word "occupation" connotes that it had been a sovereign state prior to Israeli control in 1967 (it wasn't, but was under Egyptian occupation preceding 1967).

      the total control of Gaza’s borders

      It's right, natural and normal for a state to blockade enemy territory under the control of a hostile, armed regime during a state of war and it's right, natural and normal for a state at war to deny residents of the enemy territory access to its borders and to prevent (to the extent possible) war materiel from reaching the enemy territory. But that's not occupation. Gaza is a territory under the control of the Hamas regime (do you deny that? -- because Hamas doesn't deny that) and the Hamas terror gang regime is at war with Israel (do you deny that? -- Hamas doesn't deny that). And as Hamas spokespeople have confirmed, Israel does not occupy Gaza.
      The Israeli "occupation" that Hamas seeks to end is the occupation of so-called "Palestine" which they define as every centimeter of territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. They know that Israel doesn't occupy Gaza though, which they regard as liberated.
      When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,” Zahhar said
      http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=449619

      The European Parliament has made a motion for a resolution calling for the end of this inhumane blockade. I quote and link parts of the resolution

      Quoting a resolution from the European Parliament is a failure to provide evidence that the blockade of enemy territory is illegal. What makes you think the European Parliament has any moral or legal jurisdiction in this matter?

    • Mooser April 17, 2018, 11:47 am
      Why, “Keith”, how can you say that? “Mikhael” is a moral paragon.

      “At 45, and having been married three times (I wound up marrying every woman I was intimate with), and taking care of an octogenarian mother and paying money to my teen twins in Israel and my American college-age daughter, doesn’t leave me time for any “companions”.”

      No matter how many times Moser brings up the subject, he's still never adequately been able to explain why he thinks my admission of having been married and divorced and paying child support is somehow an admission of a moral failing. Most people I know think working hard and taking financial responsibility for children is the right thing to do. I wonder why that seems so bizarre to Moser. At any rate, I'm proud to say that my eldest from my first marriage (who is not Jewish per the Orthodox-Jewish definition, as my first wife isn't Jewish) has finished college in three years and returned from her first trip to Israel, where she met her sisters and many cousins. She loved the country and the people and is contemplating living there after grad school. And next year my twin girls will be soldiers. In theory I could still do IDF miluim(reserves), except the IDF has cut back the upper age limit for reservists to 41 (I'm 48) --it used to be until 54. It would have been a pleasure to have the privilege to serve at the same time my daughters are in uniform. If I hadn't spent so many years away from Israel or had at least returned annually to do my reserve duty, they'd let me volunteer for reserves past age 48, but I haven't done miluim in about almost 20 years.

    • Keith April 17, 2018, 12:51 am
      The demonstration was primarily about ending an illegal and inhumane blockade.

      There is nothing illegal or inhumane about the blockade Israel has imposed on Gaza, which is a territory governed by a quasi-state entity at war with Israel. It is normal, natural and just for one state to prevent a hostile regime from acquiring the means to do harm to its citizens. Luckily for the residents of Gaza, Israel does in fact permit necessary humanitarian aid to enter the entity and still supplies electricity to the Hamas-controlled territory even though the Fatah-controlled PA wasn't making timely payments.

      But you don’t care about your fellow human beings who aren’t Jewish

      This of course is an assertion without any evidence. As an Israeli citizen, I am of course concerned with the well-being and safety of my fellow citizens of Israel, nearly 25% of whom are not Jewish. Many Israeli citizens murdered by terrorist maniacs from Gaza and the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas in the West Bank have of course been non-Jews. Additionally, a demonstration of concern for safety of all other humans never means forgoing the safety and security of one's own national group, except when it comes to Jews, apparently.

      Unarmed protesters acting in a “threatening manner?”

      Heaving rocks is use of a weapon. Tossing a Molotov cocktail is use of a weapon. Shooting fireworks is using a weapon. I would tell you to try tossing a Molotov cocktail at your friendly, local police officer and see what happens if you don't believe me, but I wouldn't want the officer to be hurt and I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders to be harmed when you get shot.

      Is your intellectual and moral integrity of so little importance to you?

      I take comfort that generations from now, if this website is archived in the distant future, Jews in Israel will know that in the early 21st century that there were proud Jews who weren't afraid to speak out against immoral and stupid Jew-hating freaks like you.

    • Mooser April 16, 2018, 6:09 pm
      Here you go , “Mikhael”

      I'd suggest you go up to Bellingham and launch bottle rockets or Roman candles at Canadian Border Services Officers to see what happens, but I wouldn't want any of them to get hurt.

    • Ossinev March 30, 2018, 5:01 pm
      @Mikhael

      “It’s a quasi-state entity that is de jure and de facto in a state of war with Israel”

      WTF is a “quasi – state entity”. Please define because it sounds as if you are taking the Mickey.

      "Quasi" means having some, but not all of the features of. A "state" is a political or territorial unit that in the context of this discussion refers to a unified and sovereign country. An "entity" is a thing that exists. Thus, a "quasi-state entity" is a thing that exists that has some, but not all, of the attributes of an independent and sovereign state. You should try to work this out yourself the next time.

      On the other hand “De jure”. Way to go. It`s so reassuring to know that you believe that Gaza has the legal right to be at war with Israel

      Israel has a legal right to be at war with the terror gang regime that controls Gaza.

      “The terror gang known as Hamas”. Now that one did ring a few bells. I`m thinking Stern Terror Gang,Haganah Terror Gang and Irgun Terror Gang.

      Do you mean LeHI and ESeL? The groups you mentioned never existed by those names. (Irgun simply means organization). LeHI and ESeL were Palestinian-Jewish paramilitary groups that used unconventional tactics against the British armed forces and police as well as Palestinian-Arab paramilitary groups. They were disbanded and have ceased to exist for 70+ years. Unlike the Hamas terror gang regime that controls Gaza, LeHI and ESeL never governed any territory.

      ” Area A of the West Bank, which is entirely under the security jurisdiction of the Fatah-led portion of the PA”

      Confess to being a bit confused on this one blossom. If it is “entirely under Palestinian security force “jurisdiction” why then was the PA policeman Auda who shot Livnat tried in an Israeli Army Military Court. Please do explain.

      PA Police Officer Naef Fahd Bani Audeh was arrested and served a sentence in a PA prison and was subsequently released. He was later apprehended by Israel's General Security Services after there was a warrant for his arrest in Israel. It's not clear whether he was arrested in Area A, B or C. But Israel justifiably reserves the right to arrest terror and murder suspects if they aren't extraditable without asking permission. Israel didn't ask for Argentina's permission before arresting Eichmann on Argentinian soil, after all. Nevertheless, Bani Audeh was acquitted by an Israeli court of intentional homicide and only convicted of reckless endangerment and disruption of court proceedings, and then he was subsequently released after receiving a sentence of time served.

      “but I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened”

      Is your “in principle” the same as your “de jure and de facto ” . Will be fascinated to know.

      These are simple words that people of basic intelligence should be able to understand. My principle is that a PA policeman who can demonstrate that an Israeli civilian not only unlawfully disregarded an order to halt and entered PA-controlled territory without proper security clearance between the PA and the IDF (which is the protocol for Jewish worshipers who want to go to Joseph's Tomb in Shekhem, a protocol which Mr Livnat disregarded), but who can demonstrate a reasonable fear for his own safety, has the same right to defend himself using lethal force as IDF does. I wasn't a witness to what actually transpired and therefore I can't determine if Bani Audeh and the other PA police actually had a legitimate fear for their own safety, but we know that the PA policemen's narratives about the incident changed many times. The accused were ultimately acquitted even by an Israeli court because the prosecution couldn't establish that they intended to kill Ben Yosef Livnat.

    • Mooser March 30, 2018, 4:48 pm
      “And if Moser travels from Kitsap County to British Colombia…/…lethal force.”

      Idiot. The Washington/Canadian border has been a smuggling route for centuries now. Sometimes people are apprehended, and returned to jurisdiction. All without a lot of “lethal force”.

      Poor old Moosie still can't read. The matter under discussion was not a peaceful interdiction of smugglers (which Israel routinely does) but of people acting in a threatening manner and ignoring a lawful order to stop. Like what happened to Canadian citizen Jamison Chiildress when he attempted to cross illegally into Washington State, ignored a lawful order to halt, and sprayed a chemical at US Border Patrol agents.

      https://globalnews.ca/news/1893270/us-border-patrol-agent-fatally-shoots-man-near-town-on-us-canada-border/
      Canadian Border Services Officers would be justified in using lethal foce if a US citizen threatens them in a similar manner. And Israeli Border Police or IDF personnel who have Molotov cocktails or fireworks aimed at them are justified to do the same.
      Here is an account of one of the Gaza protesters who admitted to shooting fireworks at IDF soldiers and was merely wounded in his hand by rubber bullets.

      We were at the border yesterday and met an 18-year-old Palestinian, Hamada Zaza (ph). His hand was covered in a bandage from a rubber bullet wound. He said he shot fireworks toward soldiers. And I asked him why he was there.

      https://www.npr.org/2018/04/02/598756584/israel-rejects-conducting-investigation-into-gaza-border-violence

      I was actually dismayed at hearing this interview. Unfortunately, because this threat wasn't permanently neutralized and this individual received a mere rubber bullet injury to his hand, he might yet succeed into coming into my country to kill my fellow citizens.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius March 30, 2018, 4:24 pm
      “I didn’t fail because I undertook no obligation to demonstrate this to you to your satisfaction. ”

      That’s because you can’t. Israel has never declared its borders. You cannot produce a map of those borders. Nobody can.

      Borders are determined and defined between and among states when those states respect and recognize their neighbors' borders. Many sovereign states modify and alter their borders with neighbors through mutual negotiations and agreement; Israel has peace treaties with two neighboring states, Egypt and Jordan. The borders between Israel and Egypt hand Israel and Jordan have been defined. And Israel has applied Israeli law to the Golan Heights and has de facto and de jure incorporated it into Israel even though there is not yet any treaty with Syria (and there won't be for the foreseeable future). So Israel has also unilaterally defined its borders with Syria, in the absence of negotiation and agreement with that state (what there is of it), although it is possible that in the unlikely event that peace in Syria prevails and a government forms there that looks towards peace with Israel, perhaps Israel's borders with Syria can be negotiated and modified, just as many sovereign states modify and alter their borders through negotiation, e.g., Nigeria and Cameroon (https://www.un.org/press/en/2006/afr1397.doc.htmhttps://www.un.org/press/en/2006/afr1397.doc.htm). When it comes to Israel's borders with the Palestinian Authority, there is no Palestinian state yet that Israel has been able to reach an agreement with over the final disposition of borders, just two quasi-state entities. When and if an agreement is reached, then Israel can have mutually agreed-upon borders with a neighboring state capable of controlling its borders. Until that happens, however, Israel will unilaterally take action to define its security border with the hostile quasi-state entity in Gaza governed by the Hamas terror gang. Israel does not accept the contention of the Hamas terror gang that rules the quasi-state entity in Gaza that all of the Land of Israel between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is a Muslim Waqf and that people from Gaza have a right to come into Israeli-held territory to harm the citizens of Israel.

      “Hamas itself has declared that Gaza is not occupied.”

      Really? Got a link. And are they now the unimpeachable source of international law? Can I quote you on that, ‘mikhael’?

      Sure, since you missed it the first time, I'll show you the link a second time and if you ask me again, I'll show it to you a third and a fourth time.
      Here is the quote again, here is the link again:

      “Against whom could we demonstrate in the Gaza Strip? When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,” Zahhar said
      http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=449619<

      I 'm always glad to help!

      “And are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter?”

      No, “Mikhael”, I think you’re the one who decides these things. Who needs the UN when you’ve got ‘Mikhael’?

      No, not just me. The UN has no more moral credibility because it's an organization the "Human Rights" Council of which routinely has the worst violators of human rights (e.g., Qadhafi's Libya, Syria) as members, whose "peacekeepers" are known the world over for running child sex rings and spreading cholera. The UN, with its , bloated bureaucracy and organizations, is mostly only effective and reliable at passing anti-Israel resolutions. So I'll ask again, are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter? Can you demonstrate why you think that the UN is a neutral arbiter that is effectively accomplishing the goals set out in its charter?

      The rest of your post is another confusing word salad but this bit:

      ” (it doesn’t seem as if he was threatening the PA policeman who shot him, although the throngs massing in Gaza are a physical threat to the IDF)”

      Throngs eh? And is it any wonder that sorry gang get their backsides handed to them any time they’re up against an even halfway decent rival eh? Physically threatened by people not even they claim are armed?

      It's sad that simple English sentences expressing simple ideas is a "word salad" for you. The word "throngs" is a word of Old English derivation referring to large and densely packed crowds. Since upwards of 30,000 people from Gaza were instigated to mass at the border with Israel on the first day of their assault, throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at Israel's defense forces and attempting to take down the security barrier and enter my country and threaten my fellow citizens, the word "throngs" is an apt description.

      “I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened.”

      In principle eh? And of course you’d not need the slightest shred of evidence that the person was a ‘threat’? You’d just take it on their word, as you do here?

      If an Israeli civilian (Jewish or otherwise) ignores an order to halt given by Palestinian Authority ("PA") security and intrudes without permission into areas in Area A of the West Bank that the Oslo Accords designate as falling under PA security jurisdiction and if said Israeli civilian gives PA police reasonable reason to believe that their lives may be threatened or that he may incur serious bodily harm (e.g, if the Israeli civilian throws rocks at the PA policeman, throws an incendiary device such as a Molotov cocktail, or aims fireworks at the PA police -- all of which have been documented incidents committed by the so-called "protesters" along the border between Israel and the quasi-state entity controlled by Hamas) then PA security personnel have reasonable grounds to assume that such a person is a threat and should be entitled to protect himself by using deadly force, if necessary.

      You’d just take it on their word, as you do here?

      Of course I don't "just take it on their word" and I don't do that with IDF soldiers either. As an IDF veteran, I know for a fact that IDF personnel who are involved in shooting incidents (deadly or otherwise) don't have their accounts taken at face value.
      What's so hard to understand? But why do you accept at face value that none of the people attempting incursions into Israeli territory intended to cause harm to IDF personnel or any Israeli civilians they encounter if somehow the IDF would permit them to swarm from Gaza into our country, when even Hamas has acknowledged that many of the so-called "peaceful protesters" are from Hamas's armed wing ?

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius March 30, 2018, 3:14 pm

      So, “MIkhael” I see you have failed to a) show me Israel’s declared, legally recognised borders on a map and b) answer my question as to whether those who choose to squat and carry arms on the wrong side of those borders are legitimate targets

      I didn't fail because I undertook no obligation to demonstrate this to you to your satisfaction. But since you insist, I'll repeat again. Israel has a de facto border with the Hamas-led portion of the Palestinian Authority, which governs the Gaza Strip. It's a quasi-state entity that is de jure and de facto in a state of war with Israel. The citizens under its authority have been instigated to mass at the border with Israel , a sovereign state, and threaten to tear down the border fence between Israel and the territory governed by Hamas, which Israel has relinquished control over since 2005.

      Snigger. That’s the clumsiest word salad since ‘weapons of mass destruction mobile chemical laboratories.’

      I'm sorry for you that you have reading comprehension issues.

      It is not a ‘quasi-state entity. It is a part of occupied Palestine, and recognised as such by the UN. You don’t get to create parallel realities so that you can get a warm fuzzy feeling about the killing of civilians

      Hamas itself has declared that Gaza is not occupied. I wonder why the UN wasn't paying attention. And are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter? Because, you know, it doesn't.
      "Against whom could we demonstrate in the Gaza Strip? When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable," Zahhar said
      http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=449619

      ” any of its citizens who approach the border with Israel and ignore orders to stop are assumed to have hostile intent. ”

      The half million ‘civilians’ and squatters on the occupied West Bank are all legitimate targets then

      The terror gang known as Hamas,which governs a portion of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in a quasi-state entity in Gaza, views all Israelis, whether they are military personnel based in the disputed territories or within territories governed by the State of Israel from 1949-1967, or civilians living in the disputed territories of the West Bank or in territories governed by the State of Israel in its 1949-1967, as legitimate targets at all times and in all places. The Fatah-led portion of the PA, which also governs a portion of the Palestinian Authority in a quasi-state entity in an area that was named the "West Bank" by the Hashemite Monarchy after it took control of that territory in 1949 (which Israel took control of in 1967), entered into an internationally binding agreement with Israel that leaves the presence of Israeli civilians in the disputed area as an unresolved matter to be left for final status negotiations. They have sometimes declared that they intend to abrogate the agreement, but they still seem to be aware (for now) that would be a two-way street with bad consequences for them. Under the agreement, Israeli civilians are confined to Area C and if they enter Area A of the West Bank, which is entirely under the security jurisdiction of the Fatah-led portion of the PA, they are subject to its laws and their lives could be forfeit if they are deemed to threaten the lives of PA police.
      That is what happened to Ben Yosef Livnat when he allegedly ignored the order of a Palestinian Authority policeman to halt and proceeded against orders to visit a site deemed holy (Joseph's Tomb in Shekhem/Nablus) by many religious Jews that lay inside Area A, which again, is under security and civil jurisdiction of Palestinian Authority police. There are conflicting accounts of whether Mr Livnat was cooperating with the order to stop given by PA police when he was was shot, so the shooting may or may not have been justified (it doesn't seem as if he was threatening the PA policeman who shot him, although the throngs massing in Gaza are a physical threat to the IDF), but I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html

    • Mooser March 30, 2018, 1:13 pm

      “people attempting to storm a border fence of a country”

      Did they? “Storm the border fence”, that is?

      No. The IDF is there to prevent that from happening. This is a good thing. The border police and soldiers of Israel don't have a moral duty to wait until citizens of a hostile foreign entity which has announced its intent on numerous occasions to destroy Israel tear down the border fence protecting the citizens of Israel, a sovereign state, and the Hamas-governed PA portion of Gaza, a quasi-state entity existing within armistice lines agreed to between Egypt and Israel in 1949 and from which Israel completely withdrew in 2005 and makes no territorial claims. However, the border guards and soldiers who defend the citizens of Israel have a moral right to use lethal force (if necessary) to prevent hostile foreigners from storming the border and entering the sovereign territory of Israel and endangering its citizens so.
      And if Moser travels from Kitsap County to British Colombia and gives good reason (like ignoring warnings to not cross the border) then the Royal Canadian Mountain Police would be justified in using lethal force.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius March 30, 2018, 1:12 pm
      @Mikhael,

      “Borders” you say? Can you show me those declared, internationally recognised ‘borders’ on a map

      In the case of Gaza, in August 2005 Israel has withdrawn to the armistice lines that existed between Egypt and Israel between 1949-1967. The Hamas-led branch of the Palestinian Authority has governed the Gaza Strip since 2007 and asserts sovereignty there and Israel has relinquished all territorial claims on Gaza. Since the Hamas-governed quasi-state entity that is known as the Gaza Strip portion of the PA is de facto and de jure in a state of war with Israel, any of its citizens who approach the border with Israel and ignore orders to stop are assumed to have hostile intent. But even when two countries are officially at peace and have open borders, military and border guards have a right and a duty to protect themselves and the citizens of the country they are sworn to protect from people anybody attempting to cross a border illegally.

    • eljay March 30, 2018, 10:46 am So just to be clear: If oppressed Jews were to gather peacefully in large numbers to assert their (human) rights, it would be perfectly acceptable for their oppressor to deliberately shoot and kill some Jews

      This "demonstration" is more about throngs of people attempting to storm a border fence of a country that is not theirs while chanting violent slogans, but the answer to your bizarro world scenario is that if thousands (or hundreds, or dozens, or even one) Jew(s) (or Albanian(s), or Mongolian(s), or Fijian(s)) gather(s) at the border fence of another country (e.g., Canada) and attempt(s) to storm it and threaten(s) the lives of the security personnel guarding the other country, then YES the security personnel or armed forces guarding the border of the country that the so-called "protester(s)" (are)(is) attempting to enter illegally have the absolute moral and legal fright to consider their own lives to be at immediate risk and take necessary steps to protect their own lives, including lethal force, and (2) take into consideration that those throngs (or even a lone individual) gathering at the border fence intend(s) to cause harm to the civilian citizens of the country that the border guards are protecting

  • Palestinian legislators are 'dragged out' of Knesset as Pence promises embassy will move in 2019
    • Mooser January 23, 2018, 11:00 pm
      “Mikhael”, let’s not forget to mention that by getting themselves ejected, the Palestinian MKs missed Pence’s speech, with all its possibilities, negotiating points, and willingness to compromise.

      There are no Palestinian Members of Knesset. Palestinians have their own Parliament in Ramallah. All the MKs are citizens of Israel. The MKs who were ejected for displaying signs in clear violation of Knesset rules can watch Pence's full speech on YouTube if they are really interested.
      There they can see where Pence clearly stated that the US is "not taking a position on any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem or the resolution of contested borders". That's a matter for the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority government either to agree on or disagree on; but I don't see how you think opposition party Knesset members who are neither part of the current Israeli government or the government of the Palestinian Authority need to be won over in a compromise by a third party (the United States).

    • John O January 24, 2018, 3:23 am
      @Mikhael. Thanks for the correction. Mind you, it’s an easy mistake to make when being elected and getting ejected go hand in hand when you’re an MK.

      The typo would seem to be hophmi's, but from context
      that seems to be the word he intended to use.
      The Knesset can be a raucous place and both Jewish and Arab MKs can often be kicked out of a session when they get rowdy. Oren Hazan, who is an obnoxious loudmouth, has already been kicked out on several occasions over the past few years for his antics. It's not as if these disciplinary measures are used selectively only against Arab MKs.

    • John O January 23, 2018, 5:00 pm
      People who stand for election invariably want to be elected; it kinda goes with the territory. But what has that to do with Knesset rules prohibiting displaying signs? Is wanting to be elected a PR move?

      It seems kind of obvious that hophmi meant to write "wanted to be
      ejected " and not "elected". The "L" key is close to the "J" key on the keyboard; it's an easy typo to make.

      And he's right of course.

      Knesset rules of procedure clearly prohibit these kinds of theatrics:

      https://www.knesset.gov.il/rules/eng/ChapterC6.pdf

      Rules of
      conduct in the
      Knesset
      Plenum
      41. (a) A Member of the Knesset shall comply with the instructions of the
      Chairman of the sitting.
      (e) A Member of the Knesset shall not exhibit any object in the
      Knesset plenum, and shall not make use of an object or caption for
      the purpose of expressing his position.

      Jewish MKs will also routinely be ejected from Knesset debates by Knesset ushers when they run afoul of these rules and/or refuse to comply with the Chairman's instructions about how to conduct themselves.

    • The astonishing moment caused Andrea Mitchell, NBC diplomatic correspondent, to remark on the discrimination of Israeli democracy: “Can you imagine Capitol Police dragging members of the congressional black caucus off the House floor

      I can imagine it if members of the Congressional Black Caucus jeered throughout a foreign dignitary's address to Congress.
      Jewish MKs are of course routinely ejected from Knesset by the Speaker when they refuse to abide by rules of order, including this Jewish MK ousted at the behest of an Arab MK when he interrupted her:

      https://www.timesofisrael.com/mk-denounces-intermarriage-is-ousted-from-knesset-meeting/

      https://www.haaretz.com/1.4782275

      https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/mk-thrown-out-of-knesset-for-taunting-arab-lawmaker-with-candy-bar/

  • Stop talking about Ahed Tamimi's hair
    • Jane Porter January 8, 2018, 11:26 am
      Strange western ethnocentrism to note that though being a Palestinian they are so surprised that that her looks is European or American

      Sounds like you must be referring to the average, ignorant Mondoweiss commenter for whom the Palestinian Arabs are all pigeonholed as "brown people" who are victimized by "white Zionists"

  • Why liberal Zionists have nothing to say about Ahed Tamimi's slap and arrest
    • Jack Green December 30, 2017, 6:19 pm
      Maghlawatan

      Israel is a success.
      Israelis are the 11th happiest people on earth

      Maghlawatan December 31, 2017, 12:07 pm
      Morons. But most of all it is not Jewish.

      Says an Irish goy who doesn't even have superficial understanding of anything about Jewishness in any of its forms, whether ethnic, national, cultural or religious, but what can we expect from someone who regularly spouts seafóid?

    • Mooser December 31, 2017, 12:38 pm
      “Israel is a success.”

      In that case, you can guarantee that Israel will need less and less support and contributions from the Jews outside Israel?

      It doesn't, nor has it for decades.

      The Jews from abroad back Israel financially and through standing up to anti-Israel hatred are benefiting themselves. Good for them!

  • Zionism didn't have to turn out so badly for Palestinians, says Roger Cohen
    • Talk-hack January 11, 2018, 5:43 pm
      Mikhael: “Ummm, no. Not at all like “Christian”. When we speak of a “Christian” we can only mean someone who believes in or follows one of the various varieties of the Jesus-cult.”
      Who are you to define that Christians are not a people, if Jews are?

      Christians themselves don't claim to be a national community. If we are discussing the descendants of the major historical Jewish communities of the Diaspora, i.e., the Ashkenazim of Central and Eastern Europe, many of whom later migrated to the New World, the Sefaradim of Spain who eventually spread throughout the Maghreb, the Balkans and the Levant, and whose descendants also migrated to the New World, and the Mizrahim who lived in North Africa and the Levant (often intermixing with Sefaradim who settled there) and Mesopatamia, we are discussing people of the same far-flung ethnos and who share common ancestral origins in Eres Yisra'el, the historical homeland of the Jewish nation. This is quite different from a Norwegian Lutheran whose ancestors converted from Nordic religion in the Middle Ages and a Filipino Catholic, who both practice some variety of the mutated Jewish Jesus cult from the 2nd Temple era Judea that begat "Christianity" and later spread around the world.

      That’s just the difference between a patrilineal and a matrilineal ‘descent systems’. And Jews just follow their cult.

      Some Jews so. I do not. I don't believe in Judaism, or any religion. The correct definition for a non-believing agnostic such as me is "Jew." And Classical Rabbinic Judaism (aka "Orthodox" Judaism) believes in matrilineal descent for defining Jewish identity. Karaite Judaism, which also goes back over 1,000 years, does not; neither does Reform Judaism.

      Mikhael: “When we speak of a Jew, we mean someone who traces his/her descent to Eres Yisra’el of antiquity and who has a distinct national heritage, kinship with other Jews and a national language (Hebrew).”
      Yep. Without any offical prove that she or he actually is. LOL.

      Eres Yisra'el has never been devoid of a Jewish population. I can trace 17 generations of my own ancestors to Upper Galilee and Jerusalem, There are ample historical records of constant Jewish migration and resettlement in the Jewish national homeland over two millennia, centuries before long before local Arabic-speaking non-Jews decided that they were a Palestinian nation. Moreover, there have been numerous genetic studies that have amply demonstrated the interconnectedness of Jews from the major Diaspora Jewish communities that show they are a distinct population group with a high degree of consanguinity to each other; these studies also demonstrate the relatedness of Jews to other modern populations in the Levant region, e.g., Syrians and Lebanese, This is only doubted by people who seek to deny the Jewish ancestral connection to their homeland.

      Mikhael: ““Jewish” is the national identity of the State of Israel. Israel is a Jewish nation-state. The state recognizes the distinct national identities of citizens …”
      Talk-hack sez: Exactöy Jewish is not a citizenship. It’s only a ‘nationality WITHIN citizenship’. Nobody can become Jewish by acquiring citizenship in Israel.

      And what of it? Are you suggesting that Israel should deny the unique cultural and national identities of its non-Jewish citizens, the way that Turkey refused to acknowledge its Kurdish citizens as having their own unique culture and persisted in categorizing them as "Mountain Turks" and denied them the right to teach their children in their own language for fear of separatism? And if a non-Jew acquires citizenship in Israel, whether they are born to one of national minority communities in Israel that hold Israeli citizenship (e.g., Druze Arabs, Muslim or Christian Arabs, Circassians) or if they are foreigners who become naturalized Israeli citizens by means of various routes (e.g., marriage to an Israeli citizen of any religion or nationality, having some skill that allows them to get permanent residency and eventually apply for naturalization), the fact they don't become Jewish by acquiring Israeli citizenship (which would be a denial of their own identity) doesn't preclude them from enjoying any of the same rights that Jewish citizens of Israel have.

      So Jews are not a state nation as much as you need to twist these concepts and distract from this fact.

      You are very confused and inarticulate. Let me break it down into simple concepts for your simple mind. No, "Jews" (wherever they may live) are not a "state nation" but Israel is a "a Jewish nation-state". If we compare it to other ethnic nation-states, for example, Greece, the analogy would be thus. "Armenians are not a state nation, but the ic Republic of Armenia is a nation-state for Armenians". That means people of Armenian ethnicity living in say, California or Syria or France or Argentina do not constitute a "state nation" (how can they, they live outside the borders of the nation-state of Armenia) just as Jews in those places do not constitute a "state nation" but people of such heritage are entitled not only ,legally but morally, to move to their ancestral home whether it be Armenia or Israel) and claim citizenship rights. This is right, normal, natural and just in both cases, but what is right, normal, natural and just for Armenians or Greeks or other Diaspora communities is condemned by withered minds as racist when it comes to Jews.

      Jewish” is not a nation state identity, not a citizenship. That’s at the core of Israel’s Apartheid.

      The above is bullshit. Israeli is a citizenship.The word "Israeli" in English is Yisra'eli in Hebrew. When the word Yisra'eli is used in classical Jewish sources, it is basically synonymous with the word Yehudi and 'Ibri, which are translated into English as “Jew” and “Hebrew”. They all basically mean the same thing -- a Jew. Additionally, in Western languages, when these terms were used by Jews and non-Jews alike, the word "Israelite" (which is the English translation of the Hebrew Yisra'eli) or Israelitische in German, basically was just a way of saying "Jew" So functionally speaking, classifying Israel's non-Jewish citizens as “Israelis” is using traditionally Jewish terminology that refers to Jews and includes them in a shared civic identity with Israeli Jews without imposing a Jewish identity on them that they would reject. As it is, though, many of Israel's non-Jewish citizens resent being called Israelis and have started to refer to themselves as Palestinians, I can imagine what would happen if Israel started to insist that they were Jews.

    • eljay January 11, 2018, 10:40 am
      || Mikhael: For the vast majority of people who identify as Jews today, Jewish identity is a national and ethnic identity … ||
      That’s nice. But the fact remains that it’s a religion-based identity acquired by:
      – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
      – being descended from someone who underwent a religious-conversion to Judaism

      Your ignorance-based opinion is not a fact.

      || … Incorrect. There are many secular, non-believing, atheist and/or agnostic Jews (such as yours truly) who do not believe in Judaism. … ||

      That’s nice. But the fact remains that it’s a religion-based identity acquired by:
      – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
      – being descended from someone who underwent a religious-conversion to Judaism.

      It's a national identity, and the vast majority of people (with a handful of exceptions) who have this national identity come by it through descent from the Jews of antiquity who lived in Eres Yisra'el, which is the common ancestral homeland of the Jewish nation. While it is certainly true that over the centuries many goyyim adopted Judaism and married into Jewish families, it's not as if Jews of Germany were ethnic Germans whose ancestors adopted Judaism and the Jews of Iraq were ethnic Arabs whose ancestors adopted Judaism and the only thing that binds them is a putative shared "religion". The fact is that they can both truthfully claim descent from Jews of antiquity who lived in the Jewish homeland, which by the way has never been empty of Jews.

      || … My paternal grandfather was from a Mizrahi Jewish family originating from today’s Syria (Aleppo and Damascus) and my great grandparents (my father’s paternal grandparents) moved to Jerusalem at the end of the 19th century. … ||

      And catalan is Bulgarian, hails from Spain (he guesses) and lives in New Mexico. Like I said: Some Jews can truthfully claim that geographic Palestine is their ancestral homeland. The rest can only fancifully make the claim. Too bad for you that you don’t like it.

      If "Catalan" (is he a commenter here?) is a Sefaradi Jew from Bulgaria ("Katalan" is a Sephardic-Jewish surname, although not so common) then that means he is descended from Sefaradi Jews whose ancestors were expelled from Spain in 1492. After the Expulsion of Jews from Spain, Sefaradi Jews scattered all over the place, but the vast bulk of them settled in the Ottoman Empire (including some of my ancestors who re-settled in the ancestral Jewish homeland when it was under Ottoman control). Many Sefaradim also settled in the Ottoman-controlled Balkan states, including in the areas that would eventually become independent Greece, Bulgaria, and the areas that once were part of the former Yugoslavia. In regard to the Sefaradi Jews in Bulgaria, they were never ethnically speaking "Bulgarians" (although they acquired Bulgarian citizenship) but they lived a separate lifestyle and preserved the Spanish-Jewish idiom (Ladino, which is replete with vocabulary from Hebrew, the national language of the Jews) for many centuries. They also were never "Spaniards". The earliest evidence of Jews settling in Spain is from the Roman era, however, the bulk of the ancestors of Sefaradi Jews only went to Spain with the Moorish invasions. But it's not as if Sefaradi Jews are descended in the main from indigenous Iberian converts to Judaism. They are Jews who have the same heritage and descent stemming from the Jews of antiquity who lived in geographic Eres Yisra'el, the historic Jewish homeland, and all people whose lineage stems from the historical Diaspora communities can truthfully claim this descent. Too bad for you that you're too stupid to understand this.

      Like I said: It was envisioned and established and has been operating since it inception as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

      Incorrect. It was envisioned as a Jewish state, with a Jewish national culture, just as other ethnic nation-states (e.g., Armenia, Greece) are envisioned as Armenian or Greek states. If such states accord citizens who belong to national minority communities the same civic rights under law as its citizens who belong to the dominant national group , then they are not supremacist states. There are of course allegations that states like Greece and Armenia fail to meet their obligations towards their citizens who belong to minority communities (and in the case of Armenia today there is some evidence of this towards Azeris, most of whom fled Armenia after Armenian independence in the early 1990s) the definition of Armenia as an Armenian state for Armenians doesn't in and of itself make it a "supremacist" state or an Apartheid state; neither does the definition of Israel as a Jewish state render it a supremacist state or an Apartheid state.

      Since Jewish does not exclusively refer to "religion" and is a national identity that can encompasses people of no religion and even adherents of other religions, and since Israel is not governed by religious clerics (like Iran , for instance) Israel cannot be accurately described as "religion-supremacist", as every citizen in Israel enjoys religious freedom under the law (and freedom FROM religion)

      Since non-Jewish citizens of Israel have rights under Israeli law that non-Israeli citizen Jews do not have, It is inaccurate to define Israel as "primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews." The anti-Israel fanatic Knesset member Haneen Zouabi, who is from an Arab Muslim family, certainly has the same rights that I do as an Israeli citizen (even though she openly states that she wants to tear down the Israeli state that pays her handsome Knesset salary), she also enjoys more rights under Israeli law than Jews who are not Israeli citizens (e.g., the soon-to-be-dead Mooser) have. You have failed to substantiate your allegation that Israel is a Jewish state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

    • Talk hack January 10, 2018, 8:57 am
      Mikhael: ““Jewish” is primarily an ethnic-based, national identity that can exist independently of “religion”.”

      ROFL. Like “Christian”, right? Another primarily an ethnic-based, national identity that can exist independently of “religion”.

      Ummm, no. Not at all like "Christian". When we speak of a "Christian" we can only mean someone who believes in or follows one of the various varieties of the Jesus-cult. When we speak of a Jew, we mean someone who traces his/her descent to Eres Yisra'el of antiquity and who has a distinct national heritage, kinship with other Jews and a national language (Hebrew).

      But you are right about one thing. “Jewish” is not a nation state identity, not a citizenship. That’s at the core of Israel’s Apartheid.

      "Jewish" is the national identity of the State of Israel. Israel is a Jewish nation-state. The state recognizes the distinct national identities of citizens who belong to minority groups and who would take umbrage as being classed as "Jewish". That's why there are non-Jewish Israeli citizens who have every right that Jewish Israeli citizens have who are officially classified in the Population Registry as having Arab nationality.

      MikhaeL: “Excommunication” is a religious concept.”

      So is conversion. Can someone convert to Judaism and can become am member ot this “primarily an ethnic-based, national identity that can exist independently of “religion”.”?

      Sure. But it's relatively rare.

      Mikhael: “The last time that a geopolitical entity known as “Palestine” existed was on May 15, 1948.”

      Oh no. It never stopped existing despite the Zionist effort to destroy this “geopolitical entity” which was nothing else than a (dependant) state under mandate. It was redeclared in 1988 within 1967 lins.

      There was never an independent, sovereign state known as Palestine. Oh, no. Now, I happen to be a proponent of the establishment of the first-ever Palestinian Arab state in history, but there are going to be many border adjustments. There's just no way that Israel is going to accept the Armistice Lines that existed between Jordan and Israel in 1949 as the future border between an as-yet non-existent "State of Palestine" and Israel.

      Mikhael: “Excluding very recent converts to the Jewish religion, who are very few, nearly every Jew alive today traces his or her ancestral lineage to people who once lived in the ancient Jewish polities that formerly existed in the Land of Israel. ”

      ROFL. Of course. Every Jew can prove that she or he is a descendant and that any Nonjew – especially Palestian Nonjews – isn’t, right?

      You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Let's review again. I wrote (it's right up there, but I'm repeating again, with bold for emphasis):
      "Excluding very recent converts to the Jewish religion, who are very few, nearly every Jew alive today traces his or her ancestral lineage to people who once lived in the ancient Jewish polities that formerly existed in the Land of Israel"

      Now, since I clearly wrote excluding very recent converts" and nearly every Jew I don't understand how you can possibly think that I stated "Every Jew can prove that she or he is a descendant". "Nearly" does not mean "every". But if we exclude very recent converts like Ivanka Trump, or in the rare cases where a convert marries another convert, the children of such converts, then yes, pretty much every Jew who traces his or descent to the historical Jewish communities of the Diaspora can trace his or lineage lineage to people who once lived in Eres Yisra'el. Because you are a dullard and have poor reading comprehension, I feel it necessary to stress that I am not stating that people from the major Jewish Diaspora communities are solely descended from the Jews of antiquity who lived in the Land of Israel.
      Mikhael: “in a very real sense ,the Land of Israel is the national and ancestral homeland …”

      that any Nonjew – especially Palestian Nonjews – isn’t, right

      It's quite likely that there are many non-Jews throughout the world who have Jewish descent as many Jews left the Jewish fold and converted to Christianity or Islam. So yes, that means there are Christians in Poland and Muslims in Morocco who trace their descent to Jews who once lived in the Land of Israel because great great great grampaw converted out and married a shiksa. It's also quite likely that some of the Arabic-speaking population that has recently adopted a "Palestinian" national identity are also in part descended from the Jews of antiquity. Who said otherwise? And who cares?

      Yep. The keyword is “ancestral”. So what rights to Palestinians Nonjews have to return to their proven homenland in this loony Zionist narrative?

      The Arabic-speaking non-Jews who have developed a Palestinian national identity in recent decades have the right to national self-determination and to create a Palestinian Arab state in the part of the country where they constitute a majority. If and when such a state arises, then the so-called " Palestinian refugees" should have the right of return to that Palestinian state, which will likely arise on a sizable chunk of formerly Jordanian-controlled "West Bank" with border adjustments. They don't have the right and will never have a right to demand a "return" to Israel itself, but compensation can be an issue to discuss (as well as compensation for Jewish-owned property).

      Mikhael: “The modern State of Israel has never existed as religion-supremacist “Jewish State” but since 1948 it has been a Jewish parliamentary liberal democracy with guaranteed equal rights to all citizens whether they are of Jewish national origins or not. ”
      Yep, except those Nonjews it keeps expelled and denationalized

      The Arabs who fled the territory that would become part of the State of Israel during Israel's independence war were not "denationalized" -- they never had Israeli citizenship to begin with. The ones who stayed were given Israeli citizenship and enjoy all the benefits of being citizens of a liberal democracy.

      This right was explicitely removed from one of Israel’s “Basic Law’s”.

      Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are guaranteed the same rights to Human Dignity and Liberty that are enumerated in Israel's Basic Law as Jewish citizens of Israel. Nowhere in Israel's Basic Law is it stated that these rights are reserved "only for Jewish citizens of the state". You've failed again.

      And don’t forget that all citizens of Israel are equal. But Israel’s “nationals” (aka Jews) are more equal then equal and have more rights.

      Wrong again. It's not only Jews that are "nationals" of Israel. There are several different recognized "nationalities" in Israel that have citizenship. And your saying thatr Jews are "more equal" than non-Jewish citizens is unsubstantiated.

      In fact only Jews have the rights that every citizen would have in a true liberal democracy. Israel has even perverted the term “citizen”. Guess which Germany regime also differentiated between nationals and citizens to privilige the former.

      You cannot name one single right that I, as a Jewish citizen of Israel, have under Israeli law that a non-Jewish citizen of Israel does not have and cannot have under Israeli law because he or she is a non-Jew. Name just one. And don't give me that bullshit Adalah list of so-called discriminatory laws (which, by the way does not list one right that Jewish citizens have that are denied to non-Jewish citizens of Israel).

      To me Israel is simply an Apartheid state, because it has to keep Nonjews expelled to maintain a regime that is dominated by Jews. That amounts to the Crime of Apartheid as defined in international law.

      Newsflash. There are almost 2 million non-Jewish citizens of Israel who live, work, and love in Israel, who serve not only in Knesset, but in the Supreme Court, in Cabinet Ministries, in the diplomatic corps, and as brigadier generals in the IDF. None of this would be possible under an Apartheid system. But you're an idiot and your mind is made up. Facts confuse you.

    • eljay January 9, 2018, 7:05 pm
      || Mikhael: He’s an old fart who’ll be dead soon with no issue. He’s in his 60s … Let’s say he manages to reach his 100s through healthy habits … “Mooser” will be dead in a few decades’ time at the most … ||

      When someone threatens suggests that a person will be dead “soon”, 40 years is not the time-frame that usually comes to mind.

      Guy: You’ll be dead soon.
      Other guy: What?
      Guy: You’ll be dead soon. In the dark, without witnesses and cameras.
      Other guy: What the hell? Are you threatening me?
      Guy: What? No, no, not at all. I was just saying that in approximately 40 years you’ll die of natural causes late at night in a quiet hospital room. What else could I have possibly meant?

      I have the feeling he's got far less than 40 years. In any case, he'll most likely be dead soon.

    • eljay January 9, 2018, 9:21 pm
      || Mikhael: … “Jewish” is primarily an ethnic-based, national identity that can exist independently of “religion”. … ||

      Jewish is a religion-based identity that is acquired:
      – by undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
      – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

      For the vast majority of people who identify as Jews today, Jewish identity is a national and ethnic identity that is primarily acquired through descent from the Hebrews and Israelites of antiquity who lived in the Jewish kingdoms that used to exist in Eres Yisra'el. Since at one point these ancient Hebrews believed in polytheism, and eventually over a period of time they adopted Israelite religion, which would eventually evolve into what we now describe as Rabbinic Judaism, in that sense they are descended from people who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism. Most Jews living today (excepting very recent converts like Ivanka Trump) can accurately claim descent from people who lived in Eres Yisra'el in antiquity (and of course in more recent times as well, as our homeland was never devoid of Jews). Because you are a simpleton, I must stress that I am not claiming that most Jews are solely descended from peoples who lived in Eres Yisra'el in antiquity, of course some of the ancestors of modern Jews were from among the populations of the host countries that Jews lived in the Diaspora (and other peoples) .

      The Jewish identity exists because of Judaism. No Judaism, no Jewish.

      Incorrect. There are many secular, non-believing, atheist and/or agnostic Jews (such as yours truly) who do not believe in Judaism. There are also many Jews who follow other religious systems. They are all Jews and many also embrace their Jewish identity while they reject Jewish religion. That said, classical Rabbinic Judaism is a good system to preserve Jewish national and cultural identity in the Diaspora and that was its function in often hostile environments. For a Hebrew-speaking Israeli citizen like me who spends much of the year in the Jewish homeland, the rites and rituals and beliefs of Judaism are irrelevant and unnecessary.

      Some Jews can truthfully claim that geographic Palestine is their ancestral homeland.

      Since "geographic Palestine" ceased to exist when the British Mandate of Palestine ceased to exist, I don't know of any Jews who would claim "Palestine" as their homeland. I suppose that my late father, who received Palestinian citizenship when he was born in 1932 during the Mandate era, might have described himself and his family as coming from "Palestine" (even though his parents, born in Jerusalem as he was, but when the country was under Ottoman rule, were not from "Palestine" until the British dubbed the country as such.

      The rest can only fancifully make the claim. Too bad for you that you don’t like it.

      My paternal grandfather was from a Mizrahi Jewish family originating from today's Syria (Aleppo and Damascus) and my great grandparents (my father's paternal grandparents) moved to Jerusalem at the end of the 19th century. On my father's maternal side, the family had been living in Galilee (and later Jerusalem) since at least the 1500s. Like most Spanish Jews (Sefaradim), they migrated to the Ottoman Empire, in my paternal grandmother's family My mother's side are Ashkenazi Jews from Central Europe, and they only immigrated to Israel after WW2. But my mother's Ashkenazi family from Hungary can accurately claim roots in the Land of Israel just as much as my Mizrahi side of the family. Both sides of the family weer ethnic Jews who traced their lineage to Eres Yisra'el in antiquity. In one part of my father's family they never left the Levant region (and the part of the family that lived in Damascus actually moved back and forth between the Land of Israel and Damascus over the centuries, this was common in Damascene-Jewish families, as it was so close, ultimately permanently resettling in Jerusalem in the 1870s), but the Ashkenazi side of the family has just as much connection to the country as the side that had lived in the region of for centuries. The ancestral connection of all major historical Jewish communities to each other stemming from roots in the Levant has been repeatedly demonstrated through numerous genetic studies. Too bad for you if you're too stupid to understand this.

      || … The modern State of Israel has never existed as religion-supremacist “Jewish State” … ||

      It was envisioned and established and has been operating since it inception as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

      Incorrect. It was envisioned as a Jewish state, with a Jewish national culture, and with absolute freedom of religion (and freedom FROM religion) and equal rights for all citizens of the state whatever their ethnicity or national background, Jewish or otherwise. Non-Jewish Israeli citizens have rights as Israeli citizens that Jews from abroad who are not Israeli citizens do not have, and will not have, unless and until they claim Israeli citizenship under Israel's Law of Return.

    • Mooser January 9, 2018, 6:19 pm
      Yup, tell yourself that Zionism and Judaism will better off after about 80% of all Jews are gone “Mikhael”.

      Only an an addled old fart who will be dead soon could construe my words as suggesting that.

      The demographic trend is for American Jews to be an overwhelmingly Orthodox community, whether haredi or "modern Orthodox". Non-affiliated Jews mostly intermarry and have no interest in passing on Jewish culture and identity to the next generation. This is a normal and natural thing in an open and pluralistic society that was denied to the ancestors of American Jews. And that's fine. But the Orthodox cohort will remain and has a large natural growth rate. More importantly, they're an overwhelmingly pro-Zionist community.

      Secular Jews will also still exist in large numbers in Israel.

    • Mooser December 27, 2017, 5:10 pm
      “There were a few factors that made the clash between Palestinian aspirations and Zionist aspirations inevitable”

      You mean the “Zionist aspiration” to take Palestine and the “Palestinian aspiration” to simply live where they were living, and their “aspiration” to go on living?

      I think he might have meant that there was the Zionist aspiration to create a Jewish nation-state in Eres Yisra'el, or at least a very small part of it, coexisting next to an additional Palestinian Arab nation-state (the second) per the Jewish Agency's acceptance of Resolution 181 and the Arab nationalist aspiration to have an exclusively Arab state (not a "Palestinian" state at that time though) in all of the former British Mandate of Palestine west of the Jordan River (excluding the parts of Mandate Palestine that became Transjordan) and ethnically cleanse the country of all of its Jewish inhabitants. We can't forget that all the Jews who lived in the areas of the former British Mandate that fell to Arab forces between 1948-1949 were expelled by the Arab Legion, including those whose families had lived there continuously for many centuries (mostly in Jerusalem's Old City, including my father's aunt and cousins), whereas tens of thousands of Arabs went on "to simply live" in the areas of the erstwhile British Mandate of Palestine that came to be part of the State of Israel after the signing of the Armistice Agreement as Israeli citizens.

    • January 9, 2018, 3:27 pm

      “Jewish people” are people all over the world – citizens of homelands all over the world – who have chosen to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish

      "Jewish" is primarily an ethnic-based, national identity that can exist independently of "religion". I will never believe in "god" (so-called) or follow the dictates of any religious dogma, yet I will always be a Jew, that is my national identity and millions of other secular Jews in Israel as well as those who live outside the Jewish national homeland, feel as I do. Our Jewish national identity is not "religion-based."

      AFAIK, Mooser hasn’t decided to stop being Jewish and you haven’t managed to excommunicate him

      "Excommunication" is a religious concept. I have no religious sentiment and we were not discussing religion, so this concept has no relevance here. I have no idea of and care less about "Mooser's" religious inclinations (although it is very obvious that he is extremely ignorant of Classical Rabbinical Judaism). He may or may not regard himself as a Jew but it's very clear from everything he has posted that he has disaffiliated himself from the Jewish People. It's not my business.

      || … It is of course your right as a free individual who li

      ves outside the Jewish homeland … ||
      Geographic Palestine is not the homeland of every person in the world who has chosen to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish

      The last time that a geopolitical entity known as "Palestine" existed was on May 15, 1948.
      Excluding very recent converts to the Jewish religion, who are very few, nearly every Jew alive today traces his or her ancestral lineage to people who once lived in the ancient Jewish polities that formerly existed in the Land of Israel. Ina very real sense ,the Land of Israel is the national and ancestral homeland of most Jews.

      Countries all over the world are the homelands of their Jewish – and non-Jewish – citizens

      I don't necessarily disagree. One thing does not exclude the other, however. If they wish, Jews in Canada and the USA and Australia who were born or raised in or immigrated to can claim those countries as their homeland and they can can also truthfully state that the Land of Israel is their ancestral homeland (because it's where their ancestors originally came from). And because Jews are fortunate to live in the age of Zionism, and are no longer victims, like their ancestors who lived in the Diaspora in places like Iraq and Germany and Tsarist Russia and the USSR once were, Jews in places like Canada, the USA, Australia can also reject those places as a "homeland" and fulfill their legal and more importantly, moral right to move to the national Jewish homeland in the State of Israel, and not live in the Diaspora. Jews have that right and will enjoy that right just as if a Canadian citizen of Armenian heritage wants to move to Armenia, the land where his ancestors once lived, so his children can grow up in a society that is based on Armenian culture. Too bad for you that you don't like it.

      Of course: As long as there exist sufficient – and sufficiently influential – Jewish supremacists to ensure the existence of Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”, Israel will continue to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”

      The modern State of Israel has never existed as religion-supremacist "Jewish State" but since 1948 it has been a Jewish parliamentary liberal democracy with guaranteed equal rights to all citizens whether they are of Jewish national origins or not. I will grant that there are many elements in the society that the society was were religion-based (Muslim as well as Jewish) but they are unlikely to succeed in converting Israel into a theocracy.

      At some point – maybe a Thousand Years from now, maybe less – sufficient Jewish supremacists will not exist and neither will religion-supremacist “Jewish State"

      At some point maybe all nations will cease to exist. Perhaps in less than a hundred years all of humanity will be replaced by AI or we'll all be destroyed by a rogue comet or a plague. But considering that modern Israel as a religion-supremacist state has never existed, it would have to come into being as such in order for it to cease to exist.

    • eljay January 8, 2018, 2:39 pm
      || Mikhael:

      Mooser …

      … You’ll be dead soon … ||

      Whoa. Looks like Larry Derfner isn’t the only guy Mooser needs to watch out for.

      He's an old fart who'll be dead soon with no issue. He's in his 60s, I'm in my late 40s. Let's say he manages to reach his 100s through healthy habits, and I get hit by a bus (I ride my bike a lot on NYC and in Israel so it's not inconceivable). But as I already have offspring (of course there's no guarantee they'll have children or live long lives), it is highly likely (although not inevitable) that I will have Hebrew-speaking progeny living in an Israeli-Jewish state a century from now, while "Mooser" will be dead in a few decades' time at the most, with no descendants, Jewish or otherwise.

    • Mooser January 8, 2018, 2:56 pm
      “You’ll be dead soon and all that will remain of you will be some ones and zeroes.”

      Which Zionism will inherit? There is the fundamental absurdity of Zionism, they keep insisting that the fewer Jews there are, the more powerful Jews will be

      The demographic trend is for Israel to have the world's largest Jewish population. That is only natural and normal.

      That’s it, “Mikhael” you keep telling us who you will exclude from Judaism

      I never mentioned "Judaism" in any of its forms. That's a religious system that has no pertinence to this discussion; why are you referring to it?
      You, however, have excluded yourself from the Jewish People, which is a national group that exists independently of the religious systems grouped under the name of "Judaism" and I have had nothing to do with that. It is of course your right as a free individual who lives outside the Jewish homeland to disaffiliate from the Jewish People and in fact it is a normal and natural thing for people who live in a free Western society to assimilate and reject their ancestral ethnic and national heritage. They shouldn't claim, however, as you do, that as they disaffiliate from their ancestral roots that their rejection of Jewish Peoplehood means something significant to the future of the State of Israel.

      Disparaging “Mikhael” as if Zionism needed any Jewish support, now that the Zionist Christians and Evangelicals support the project

      You didn't say anything disparaging or insulting to me.
      For Zionism to survive, it doesn't need Evangelical Christian support nor does it really need Diaspora Jewish support, but of course it needs Jewish support in Israel and it will survive as long as the vast majority of Israeli citizens are Hebrew-speaking Jews who love their homeland and desire that the State of Israel will continue to have a Jewish national character. This of course is the case. The fact that there are many people of Jewish heritage living in the Diaspora who reject Zionism and who don't support Israel (the vast majority of American Jews who don't support Israel are merely indifferent and aren't "anti" Israel, freaks like you and the other people of Jewish heritage on this blog are a minority) has no consequence. Seriously, you're just not that important.
      Factually speaking, however, the demographic trend over the next few decades is for US Jews (and other Jewish communities in Diaspora countries in the Western world) to be a majority-Orthodox group as non-Orthodox Jews marry out, and, even in cases where they try to pass on a sense of Jewishness to offspring, their children and grandchildren will cease identifying as Jews. So be it. Orthodox Jews are mostly very pro-Zionist and have close kin in Israel, even among the rank-and-file of ostensibly "anti-Zionist" groups like Satmar which reject political Zionism on theological grounds there's a lot of concern for Israel's security.

    • Mooser December 29, 2017, 3:07 pm

      Thatr’s right “Mikhail”! Now that we have embraced serial monogamy, all the demographic and social trends will be short-circuited!

      The demographic trend is for people like you (secular American Jews) to go extinct. Secular Jews have a future in Israel, of course, but the Jewish future in North America belongs to the Orthodox. The vast majority of Orthodox Jews have family in Israel and support Israel.
      You'll be dead soon and all that will remain of you will be some ones and zeroes.

    • Annie Robbins December 27, 2017, 1:34 pm
      we know, we know about the eternal victims

      But the era of Jewish victimhood is eternally over, because Israel exists. That's what Zionism is all about.
      Those who are dismayed at this fact have been having a collective shit fit ever since Jews stopped being victims and will have to continue to stomp their little feet because Jews won't ever go back to being victims.

  • Saving the daughters of Israel from the annihilation of intermarriage
    • Sibiriak November 29, 2016, 12:20 pm

      Mikhael refers to citizenship — “the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them–while your quote refers to nationality , so there is no necessary contradiction.

      The problem remains that within Israel there is discrimination based on nationality (as defined in Israeli law).

      That's an unsubstantiated allegation. There's no legal discrimination against Israeli citizens of non-Jewish nationality. Which is to say that there is no right under Israeli law that Israeli citizens designated of Jewish "le'om" have that is denied to Israeli citizens of non-Jewish "le'om". There is, of course unofficial discrimination, but I am not sure that calling re-designating every citizen ("ezraḤ") as of Israel as having Israeli nationality would solve the problem of unofficial discrimination. However, Israeli citizens who feel that they are discriminated for any reason have recourse to redress these issues, through many venues including the court system. There are anti-discrimination laws in effect.

    • Mooser November 29, 2016, 12:59 pm
      “Mikhael” You are simply trying to evade the question posed at 12:45 pm.

      You mean this question? “When will women ever be able to claim sole ownership of their own bodies, every part?

      No evasion. In Israel, the answer is today, yesterday and (hopefully) tomorrow. There's no law in Israel that outlaws the rights of women to marry whom they please (well, I suppose excepting incest or minors or people deemed to be mentally non-capable) and women have the right to terminate pregnancies in Israel. Women in Israel have more control over their own bodies than they do in the US (where some states place onerous obstacles to abortion, and soon will ban it completely) or Ireland, which already bans abortions

    • talknic November 29, 2016, 9:21 am
      Poor poor Mikhael’s cup of Ziopoop runneth over

      http://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/

      Residents cannot identify themselves as Israelis in the national registry because the move could have far-reaching consequences for the country’s Jewish character, the Israeli Supreme Court wrote

      You're still demonstrating that you don't understand what you read. Try reading again what I wrote:
      "However, as I’ve noted before, the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them.” Not "nationality," but "citizen." And it's the best solution, really.

      ” I am technically an “expat from” Israel, as were my parents”

      But you were born in the US. So you’re spouting crap

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate
      An expatriate (often shortened to expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing, as an immigrant, in a country other than that of their citizenship

      According to this definition, since I'm temporarily residing in a country other than Israel, where I hold citizenship, I'm an expat. Although I also happen to have US citizenship, from the perspective of Israeli law I am simply an Israeli citizen residing abroad, and thus I am an expat from Israel.

      ““Repatriation” implies citizenship in the country which one is an expatriate from. Israeli citizens, Jewish or non-Jewish, already have a right to repatriation in Israel”

      Bullsh*t! Israel does not allow the return of non-Jewish Israelis dispossessed in 1948

      There were no citizens of Israel, Jewish or non-Jewish, who were ever dispossessed 1948. The Arabs who fled during Israel's independence war (mostly of them on their own accord) never were Israeli citizens. This is where you, as the predictable wind-up toy that you are, will link to the Israel's Declaration of Independence and make the ludicrous assertion that the clause "appeal[ing]" to "Arab inhabitants" to "participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship" is a legal instrument that granted Israeli citizenship to the Arab inhabitants who rejected that appeal. Again, for the edification of your very muddled mind, the legal instrument that governs who and who is not an Israeli citizen is "Hok haEzrahut", not the Declaration of Independence . Go read it, it's all written in very plain Hebrew.

      https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA

      “Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to “repatriation” to a state that they are not and never were citizens of”

      Except in Israel which extends the right to Jews no matter what their country of origin or citizenship

      No. Jews from abroad who are not citizens of Israel have the right to immigrate to Israel (not "repatriate") and after being found eligible, receive Israeli citizenship. If they move abroad subsequent to obtaining Israeli citizenship, then they are Israeli expats, and have the right to repatriation to Israel, where they hold citizenship. Non-citizens cannot "repatriate" to a country that they are not a citizen of.

      “I already welcome Jews who wish to take advantage of their legal and moral right to obtain citizenship in Israel and move there”

      except those who don’t meet with your Naziesque approval

      Godwin's Law, loser.

      “Here’s a great story about a young Israeli citizen, a non-Jew, born and raised abroad, who took advantage of his legal right to be repatriated to Israel”

      Uh huh.
      A) If he was born abroad he wasn’t Israeli.
      B) The article says NOTHING about him being Israeli

      Again, Israeli law grants Israeli citizenship automatically to the 1st-generation foreign-born children of Israeli citizens. The article discusses someone who's the son of Israeli Druze expatriates (meaning citizens) who moved to Brazil. Israeli law deemed him an Israeli citizen automatically by birth, with no need to "immigrate" to Israel. Again, go read the relevant Israeli statutes in plain simple-to-understand Hebrew, that I have linked to twice already.

      C) BTW This yours?
      “Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to “repatriation” to a state that they are not and never were citizens of”

      Yup. Non-Israeli citizens don't have a right to repatriation to a state that they never were citizens of, just as non-Australian citizens can't be repatriated to Australia. The young man in question, IDF Private Fadi Abd Elhak is an Israeli citizen, born to Israeli citizen parents in Brazil. he had a right to repatriate Israel, where by law, he was considered a citizen from his birth according to black letter Israeli law, a right he took advantage of in order to do his duty as a soldier. Here is another fine example of a non-Jew born outside Israel who took advantage of her right to repatriate to Israel, using her birthright Israeli citizenship obtained through descent from her Israeli citizen father.
      I am referring to ISM founder Huweida 'Arraf, born in Detroit, Michigan, USA to a father who was an Arab citizen of Israel at the time of her birth:

      Huwaida Arraf is a Palestinian lawyer with American and Israeli citizenship.
      https://palsolidarity.org/2011/07/humanity-has-no-nationality-%D9%87%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7-%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%81/father who had

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huwaida_Arraf

      Arraf was born to two Palestinian parents - her mother from the West Bank town of Beit Sahour and her father from the village of Mi'ilya, in the Galilee.... Under Israeli law, she has Israeli citizenship through her father, an Arab citizen of Israel.

    • talknic November 29, 2016, 8:14 am
      Poor poor Mikhael

      ” My father was only “Palestinian” from October 1932 until May 15, 1948 … when “Palestine” ended”

      No matter how many times you repeat bullsh*t it’s still bullsh*t. The Israeli Government claimed it was fighting in and occupying non-Israeli
      territories “in Palestine” May 22nd 1948.

      So stop repeating bullshit. The document you constantly link to is not a proclamation of the extent of Israel's boundaries by the then provisional government of Israel, nor a recognition (implicit or explicit) of any state called Palestine, but an answer detailing where Jewish forces were deployed within the former Mandate territory.

      “but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born”

      Bullsh*te! You were born in America in 1970. You could not have had Israeli citizenship until you immigrated to Israel

      You're so ignorant, that you don't even know what you don't know.
      Children born abroad to Israeli citizens are deemed Israeli citizens from birth.It's all spelled out in plain Hebrew right here:

      א)
      אלה יהיו, מיום לידתם, אזרחים ישראליים מכוח לידה:
      (1)
      מי שנולד בישראל כשאביו או אמו היו אזרחים ישראליים;
      (2)
      מי שנולד מחוץ לישראל כשאביו או אמו היו אזרחים ישראליים
      https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A7_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA

      “I have a good Israeli anchor, which provides me with peace of mind that I will always have a country of my own to return to.”

      The US is your first country, not Israel

      At the time of my birth, my parents were on temporary student visas. Despite being born in Boston, I was actually registered by my parents with the Israeli Consulate as an Israeli citizen soon after I was born, well before they ever troubled themselves to get a US passport for me.

      ” You can get one too, if you’re really a Jew. (Not if it was up to me, though)”

      The Naziesque nature of Zionism shows thru

      More histrionic hyperbole from the unhinged.

      “But if the USA or Israel ever in future pass a law banning dual citizenship, there’s no doubt I’d have to forfeit my US passport”

      Good for the US

      Not really. They'd lose another taxpayer (US citizens who live and work outside the US, whether they hold an additional passport or not, are required to file, and if necessary, pay USS income tax), which is why they the US doesn't look too kindly on US citizens voluntarily renouncing US citizenship.

    • RoHa November 27, 2016, 12:48 am
      “Anti-Zionists are simpletons who believe in a binary world and who think that Jews, alone of all national groups, should be denied right to national self-determination in their original ancestral homeland.”

      I assume that by “national groups” you mean the sort of thing I call “n-nations”

      At the risk of falling into the trap of your nomenclature Jews collectively constitute more than what you call a"c-nation". They do have a common ancestral territory where their national identity was forged that the present-day State of Israel exists on, even if it is not coterminous with it

      By general moral principles of equity, then, the decision and right (insofar as there is one) to set up the state is a matter for all the population of the territory

      You're wrong. A national group living in a territory, whether you want to designate it an "n" nation or a "c" nation, has a moral right to set up a state in a region where it dominates. The Slovenians who lived in the former Yugoslavia had the right to secede and establish a state for themselves in the region where they dominated even without the consent of the rest of the population of the former Yugoslavia, and the Kosovar Albanians had the right to secede from Serbia and establish a state without the consent of the rest of Serbia, and the Abkhazaians and the Ossetians had the right to do the same in Georgia. The Jews of the former British Mandate of Palestine constituted more than 1/3 of the population of that entity and they had a right to govern themselves in the area where they were the majority. The Palestinian Arabs who currently constitute a majority of the population in the formerly Jordanian-controlled part of the former British Mandate as well as in formerly
      Egyptian-controlled Gaza also have a right to establish their own state in that area.

      But national groups are not necessarily co-extensive with the population of the territory. If the right to set up a state were vested in national groups, it would exclude some the population who, by equity, are entitled to it. Thus, the right cannot be a right of national groups

      Had the utopian Partition Plan been accepted by both sides (and not just one party) and implemented as envisioned in November 1947, it would have allocated to an Arab state regions of the former British Mandate where Arabs constituted a clear majority of the population and to a Jewish state regions where Jews constituted the majority population. That was the most equitable arrangement feasible at the time. Since it was rejected and never had a chance to be put into place, other solutions must now be considered.

      Let us look at my paradigm example: the Finns.
      The territory of Finland is largely inhabited by (national group) Finns, but it also includes Finland-Svensk and Sami. To say that the Finns, as a national group, have the right to set up a state is to say that the rights of the Finland-Svensk and Sami do not count

      The Finns had a right as a national group to set up an ethnic nation-state for themselves and a duty to extend civil rights to Sami citizens as well as citizens of other recognized national minorities living under that state's jurisdiction. If national minorities are dissatisfied with the rights extended to them in a larger state, they have a moral right to secede and form their own state in the area if it is feasible in which they dominate.

      Now, you might want to reject this argument, claiming “the Jewish People has a right to national self-determination and independence in its own historical and ancestral homeland … is in fact intrinsic to Orthodox Judaism” but that is just to say that you, and Orthodox Judaism, reject the normal moral principles of equity

      My statement about the Orthodox Jewish attitude towards Zionism was directly responsive to "Mooser's" insinuation that Orthodox Jews "sold out" their principles when most of them moved into the modern political Zionist camp.

      A majority of Israel's citizens are Jews. A majority of those Jewish citizens desire that the state continue to define itself as a Jewish state by and for people who regard themselves as members of a Jewish nation (although there's controversy within Israel about what that implies) and whom the state recognizes as fitting that description. Principles of equity won't be served and conflict won't be resolved by uselessly insisting that Israel shouldn't exist as a Jewish state despite the clear wishes of the majority of its population. Principles of equity can be upheld by insisting that the Jewish State of Israel continue to extend the same legal and civil rights to its non-Jewish citizens as it extends to its Jewish citizens in the future, just as it has in the past.

    • Mooser November 27, 2016, 1:43 pm
      Mikhael, you don’t need to worry about any of this!

      2 billion Jews make their own race!

      How is "race" pertinent to this discussion?

    • talknic November 28, 2016, 8:41 am
      Mikhael November 27, 2016, 7:42 pm

      “Now, re-reading my comment, I will admit an error I made when I stated that ““[a]ll Jews can claim these deep roots in the country anyway”. That was a mistake on my part, I should have written “the vast majority of Jews can claim deep roots in the country” rather than “all.”

      Indeed

      I'm glad that we agree that indeed, the vast majority of Jews today can claim deep roots in Ereṣ Yisra’el (including most likely the descendants of the Kaifeng Jewish community).

      ” Your example of the Kaifeng Jewish community (or rather, the claimed descendants of the community who have re-embraced a Jewish identity, since the community effectively ceased to function some centuries ago) is, however, a very poor example of a group that has no Jewish ancestry traceable to Ereṣ Yisra’el and indicates racist thinking on your part.”

      Typical Zionist in desperation ploy, make a completely unsupportable accusation

      If I misunderstood your intent in highlighting the descendants of the Kaifeng Jewish community as unlikely to be descended from ancient Jews who inhabited the Land of Israel because of their appearance, please correct me and explain how I misunderstood your intent in bringing up the fact that the Kaifeng Jewish descendants, were "very Chinese-looking" in response to my assertion that most Jews trace their origins to Ereṣ Yisra’el

      If my assumption was correct and your point was to suggest that they can't be descended from Jews with deep ancestry traceable to Ereṣ Yisra’el, solely because they are "very Chinese-looking", then would you say that the Armenians of Burma, who are quite "Burmese-looking" can't trace descent to Armenia after a few generations of intermarriage with native Burmese?

      http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28867884
      https://aiwasanfrancisco.com/2015/03/25/unexpected-encounters-armenians-in-burma/

      “Your characterization of them as “very Chinese looking”
      They don’t look Chinese? WOW!! I wonder if they know

      I don't think it's all that important to them. And within China there is a vast diversity of phenotypes, so there's not one way to look Chinese. But I guess they all look the same to you.

      ” It does show a racist obsession on your part”

      Again with the nonsensical accusation.

      If it's not indicative of a preoccupation with phenotypical "racial" characteristics, why did you bring it up?

      “… it’s a silly argument to make against Jews having a shared national identity”

      I didn’t make any such argument. Another false accusation on your part

      Okay, if you didn't make such an argument, then you came up with a complete non sequitur for the hell of it. It's apparent that I stated that "Jews around the world share common ancestry traceable to Eres Yisra'el" and you essentially countered with "But THESE Jews look Chinese". Right. And so? How does the existence of "Chinese-looking Jews" disprove my contention?

      “I am in New York most of the year but I will probably be in ..etc etc etc”

      Proves exactly nothing.

      So let me know when you will next be in the Israeli capital (Jerusalem) and I will contact my relatives to host you and show you our family records.

      ” Your counterfactual and tiresomely tendentious argument that Israel’s borders are delineated only by the 1947 Res. 181 Partition Lines has nothing to with the current topic under discussion”

      Another false accusation.

      Your argument is counterfactual and tendentious and had nothing to do with the current topic under discussion. But since you like repetition, let's do it again

      A) Israel’s Internationally recognized borders were proclaimed effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) by the Israeli Government

      No. The document you incessantly link to was not a declaration of borders by the Provisional Government of Israel (also, here's a homework assignment for you, look up the word "provisional" when you get a chance). There's nothing in the plain meaning of the text to support
      your interpretation.

      B) They’re Israel’s ONLY Proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders. They have everything to do with the current topic

      (1) Israel never proclaimed its borders at independence. (It's not customary for newly formed states to do so.) (2) There is no binding international law that fixes Israel's borders. (3) This allegation was not responsive to the present discussion anyway. Read back up the thread.

      ” My bringing up my ancestry was in direct response to “Mooser”‘s insinuation, that I, a scion of a family that has lived in the country for centuries somehow have a less right to live there as an Israeli Jew”

      You have no right to live in Palestine as an Israeli

      When and if an independent Arab state called Palestine is established for the first time in history, its future borders as yet to be determined, the government of that state and the government of Israel will need to work out an agreement regarding Israeli citizens who live on territory that will be under the sovereignty of that still-nonexistent state. Some of my family members live in a part of Samaria (Elon Moreh) which is likely to be ceded to a future Palestinian-Arab state and which was formerly under Jordanian control from 1949-1967 and in the event Israel cedes that area to a future state of Palestine, it will be determined between the two governments whether my relatives and other Israeli Jews have a right to live there. You have no say in this matter. However, until that day arrives, they have a right to live in that disputed territory, just as every Israeli citizen has a right to live in every part of Israel that lay on the former Israeli-controlled side of the former Armistice Line established that existed between Hashemite Jordan and Israel. It should go without saying (although you will no doubt repeat this nonsense, because you're so predictable) that the never-implemented Partition borders are null and void and never represented the borders between a Jewish state and a never-declared Arab state within the former British Palestine Mandate west of the Jordan River.

    • Raphael November 27, 2016, 10:55 am
      Mikhael

      Thank you for your thoughts about Israeliness the Jewish Identify, and other identities. ...
      But, I think of Israel as being more as a theocracy run by the Orthodox, rather then say a ideal liberal democracy with a multicultural twist with all the other religions tolerated. Perhaps on paper Israel is that… but, day to day, while I lived there I did not see it

      I'm afraid that Israel has the potential to become a theocracy, and that's an existential threat, in my opinion. But a theocracy is run by a clerical class that enforces religious law as civil law, so while religious factions in Israel have major influence on how the society is run (as they do in other democratic liberal countries, like Greece (where different religious confessions have to be legally authorized) or Ireland (where due to Church influence abortion is still illegal in 2016, in an EU member state), Israel still strictly speaking can't be called a theocracy. Where did you live in Israel, if I may ask? If you lived in an Orthodox area, your perception would be influenced by those norms. Everybody is in their own bubble. Another friend of mine was telling me recently how secular Israeli society seemed to him on a recent visit.

      I think most of Trump voters want that theocratic traditional (orthodox Judaism, the magical Jerusalem) Old World political process as a part of the American Dream. They hope that Trump will bring them this during his time in office, as well as jobs in a theocratic religious democracy; that is more Old Testament in thought then New Testament. That is why the far right in Israel likes Trump

      Also Orthodox American Jews, and -Jewish immigrants to the USA from the former USSR who are on the whole extremely secular) were solidly pro-Trump. I think the ex-Sovs were drawn to his bombast and strongman facade, as well as his tough talk on Iran and for Israel, and Orthodox Jews as well.

      For example, I was able to predict that Trump would easily win… though I voted for Clinton I knew she was not going to win. Most voters in time of fear I’m sure as most voters know vote Republican, conservative or traditional (orthodox).

      All my Orthodox friends and family told me he would win and I thought they were in a delusional bubble. Oh well. I didn't vote anyway. I wish I bet on him though because I could have made some money with the Vegas oddmakers.

      I’m guessing that the Germans that immigrated to the rust belt were of the protestant form of Germaneness… so that the way I interpret it is that people in the rust belt did not vote for Trump to only give them their Middle Class jobs back… but to bring about a change to bring America to the far right. So far right where it is also regression to Old World German values.

      I thought a lot of them were pretty Left in their politics back in the day... Debs supporters and such in Wisconsin; no?

      There are no Jewish Catholics parish communities in the Catholic Church. They have Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, German Catholic, and Russian Catholic; but basically Jews within the Catholic Church are and invisible presence

      Well, most Jews who convert to Catholicism do so for marriage, and a few odd spiritual seekers, like Stephen Dubner's parents. Did you ever read his memoir?
      There is a Hebrew Catholic community in Israel, though. Did yuou have any contatct with them?

      http://forward.com/news/104859/hebrew-catholics-follow-their-own-church/

      Even after Vatican II things have not changed much from the times before Vatican II in wanting to change the theology in which Christianity is more open to Jewishness. It is on paper… but not, day to day, more open to the modern world.

      Well, why should it be?

    • eljay November 28, 2016, 9:07 pm
      || Mikhael: There’s no such thing as a “Zio-supremacist” … ||

      Sure there is. You are one.

      I am a Zionist. There are no indications of any supremacist leanings on my part in evidence.

      The rest of your post is just one massively verbose dodge. I guess it’s too much to ask that you bullshit more concisely?

      I addressed your allegations one at a time, thus there was no dodge. I can't help it if you can't keep up, but I hope it's an incentive for you to practice your reading and thinking skills.

    • Maghlawatan November 16, 2016, 8:55 am
      Look at Twitter. Israelis run Groupthink Hebrew. Liberal Jews don’t

      Mag, plenty of "liberal" (or the people who you think exemplify "liberalism", rather than rational liberal Zionist Israelis like me) Israeli Jews are also guilty of groupthinking in Hebrew.

      Guess which group is educated.

      Mag, which group is more educated? Hebrew-speaking (and reading and writing) Israelis of all political tendencies are a highly educated group. It's common for Israelis to be literate in several languages, and thousands of books are translated into Hebrew annually. You make a lot of assumptions about a language you don't know.

      Palestinians would bring a bit of depth to the gene pool.

      Because Arabs are all highly individualistic and never guilty of groupthink?! Which universe do you live in?

    • Mooser November 27, 2016, 1:50 pm
      I knew a Jewish man who got married. His wife used to tell him “Must you go on talking about things you know nothing of?”
      But he slapped her a good one, and ran off to see what he could get.
      And what is more, every woman he married, he was intimate with!

      It seems as if you're trying to say that you've physically abused your wife.

    • eljay November 28, 2016, 8:12 am
      || Mikhael: … My Jewish identity is not contingent on any religious belief or ritual observance. … I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I’m Jewish. … ||

      That’s nice. It doesn’t change the fact that Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity

      It's only "religion-based" for people who believe in or practice the religion. For others, it's more cultural and tribal than cultic.

      || … It defines Jewish status based on ancestry … ||

      Yup, the ancestor being someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

      Well, while it is highly likely that most Jews have some Diaspora ancestors who underwent a religious conversion to what later became known as Judaism, most Jews (excepting very recent converts) also have ancestors who were Jews (or Israelite, or Hebrews, take your pick) before the diverse belief systems, rituals and practices now called "Judaism" in English ever developed. Jews were so called not because they practiced any "religion" called Judaism, but because they traced descent to a tribe called Judah, originally part of a tribal confederacy, and later an eponymous kingdom. When the Kingdom of Judah existed, its state religion would have been unrecognizable as the "Judaism" that exists today and many other cults were practiced by the Jews (and the Israelites) until they were purged (e.g., that of Baal and Asherah). There were in the ancient past "Yehudim" (the word in Hebrew for a "Jew" and someone from the tribe of "Yehuda" (Judah) and/or the Kingdom of Judah (Yehuda). For a very long period, these Jews were not monotheists and worshiped the same idols as their Canaanite neighbors. They were, nevertheless, Jews, and their conversion to Judaic/Israelite monotheism is not what made them Jews. Most Jews alive today are Jews because they trace their ancestry to these tribal people living in the ancient Land of Israel.

      || … You’re a goy … ||

      I’m a goy, I’m a goy
      but my ma won’t admit it

      It happens in the best of families. That's the least of your problems.

      || … However, functionally speaking if a Jew adopts a creed that demands that he abnegate the Jewish aspect of his/her identity then the Jewish identity will disappear in that person’s family. … ||

      It can’t, since the person and his descendants will continue to be culturally and nationally Jewish…unless by some mechanism those non-religious identities are stripped from them. So, please do tell this ADD-afflicted goy by what mechanisms are those non-religious identities stripped from them.

      If someone adopts a creed or an outlook that demands a renunciation of the culture or nationality they were born into, then they will strip it away from themselves and their descendants. Cultural, ethnic and national identity can be forgotten, denied and erased. This is a well-known pattern and this shouldn't be hard, even for you, to understand. (Especially as you have stated several times that you no longer identify with the ethnic identity or nationality of your Croat and Italian forebears.) Every free individual has a right to choose whether to embrace or reject his/her ancestral ethnic heritage and I never stated otherwise. I also wrote nothing that could be construed as endorsing a position that Jews in Israel who choose to marry non-Jews and abandon their Jewish identity should be coerced back into the Jewish fold.

    • Mooser November 28, 2016, 12:07 pm
      Mikhael, if you got married you could expound at, or even just sit and mutter to your wife. And she could say “Yes, dear, you are so smart! Such an expert!” Makes a guy feel good

      None of my exes ever told me that. I wonder if you've ever been married.

      “but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born”

      Yup, that’s right, isn’t it. You got a good ol’ US anchor

      I have a good Israeli anchor, which provides me with peace of mind that I will always have a country of my own to return to. You can get one too, if you're really a Jew. (Not if it was up to me, though)
      But if the USA or Israel ever in future pass a law banning dual citizenship, there's no doubt I'd have to forfeit my US passport.

    • echinococcus November 28, 2016, 8:22 am
      Michael and his post November 27, 2016, 8:38 pm

      Thanks for the detailed history. It’s a very clear-cut case. If true, of course you are an American from a true Palestinian father, and religious members of his family would presumably have been Jewish.

      My father was only "Palestinian" from October 1932 until May 15, 1948. He and the rest of his family permanently and joyfully ceased to be "Palestinian" when "Palestine" ended. He was a religious Jew and an Israeli, and I am an agnostic Jew and an Israeli.

      So your acrobatics trying to reject your heritage under pretext of official citizenship has definitely documented that heritage as very Palestinian

      I embrace my Jewish national heritage and lengthy lineage in Ereṣ Yisra’el, don't be silly .Try to read more carefully.

      Also, your trying to correct Mooser’s Yiddish is more than ridiculous. He knows it much better than yourself

      He used words derived from Hebrew, the Jewish national language, and I'm trying to help him improve his skills in pronouncing Hebrew. There's no reason for him to use his Leo Rosten-acquired Yiddish (and I wager as an ex-yeshiva student in Brooklyn that I actually have a better grasp of Yiddish).

    • eljay November 28, 2016, 9:56 am
      || eljay: … OK, so Jewish Muslims and Jewish Christians are not an issue. … ||

      Given (the Zio-supremacist assertion) that Jewish is like any other nationality, Muslim Jews and Christian Jews should not be an issue, either.

      There's no such thing as a "Zio-supremacist", but Zionist theory in and of itself doesn't exclude Jews who adopt non-Jewish religions like Jesuscult or Islam from being part of the Jewish nation.

      So there’s no reason not to grant Jewish nationality to all non-Jewish citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from “Jewish State”.

      I think that the non-Jewish citizens of Israel, most of whom identify as Arab and proudly cherish their own Arab nationality (and other non-Jewish and non-Arab Israeli citizens), would resent being characterized as "Jewish" and having a Jewish identity foisted on them. However, as I've noted before, the Jewish State of Israel does apply the designation Israeli citizen to them. For most of the history of the Jews, "Israeli" , "Jew" and Hebrew" were essentially synonymous and interchangeable words. So granting status of "Israeli citizen" to a non-Jew is functionally equivalent to including them in a civic conception of Jewishness.

      immigrants to and expats and refugees from “Jewish State”

      "Immigrants to" the Jewish state are by and large of Jewish nationality or ancestry already, or married to such people. Non-Jewish legal immigrants to Israel who become naturalized Israeli citizens can share in the civic Israeli conception of Jewishness. "Expats from" the Jewish state (Jewish or non-Jewish) implies that they already have Israeli citizenship, hold an Israeli passport and identity document and have the legal right to travel back and forth and establish residence as they please. I am technically an "expat from" Israel, as were my parents. "Refugees from" the Jewish state don't exist. Israeli citizens don't need to become a refugee from Israel and seek asylum in another state

      Repatriating all of “Jewish State’s” refugees would no longer result in a “demographic threat” since they would all be Jewish

      "Repatriation" implies citizenship in the country which one is an expatriate from. Israeli citizens, Jewish or non-Jewish, already have a right to repatriation in Israel, as I stated above (ergo, my late father, who after decades of legal residence in the US gave up his green card and went back to Jerusalem). Non-Israeli citizens do not have any right to "repatriation" to a state that they are not and never were citizens of.

      What’s not to love? C’mon, Mike, embrace your new Jewish compatriots and welcome them home. :-)

      I already welcome Jews who wish to take advantage of their legal and moral right to obtain citizenship in Israel and move there and I also am happy when Israeli citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish, repatriate themselves to Israel, as is their legal right do so. Here's a great story about a young Israeli citizen, a non-Jew, born and raised abroad, who took advantage of his legal right to be repatriated to Israel, so that he could serve in the IDF, just as I did when I was a younger man. Enjoy!

      https://www.idfblog.com/2012/02/07/family-firsts-meet-first-ever-druze-lone-soldier/

    • echinococcus November 28, 2016, 2:36 am
      Michael again (and again…)

      I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I’m Jewish

      Bullshit. The first statement has entirely canceled the second.

      You're wrong. I disavow any belief in a Sinaitic revelation, or any omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent deity that has any agency in human affairs. I'm just a run-of-the-mill secular and agnostic Jew.

      I actually stated quite clearly that a religious conversion of a Jew to Christianity or Islam does not in and of itself strip a Jew of his or her ethnicity and nationality.

      You stated total nonsense.

      There have been many famous believers in Jesuscult who continued to identify with the Jewish People, Jean-Marie Lustiger, for instance. Nevertheless, throughout history there were many more Jews who adopted Jesuscult whose relations with Jews remained more fraught, e.g., the aforementioned Pfefferkorn and Pablo Christiani.

      What ethnicity? Eskenazi,

      It's actually correctly transliterated in Roman characters as "Ashkenazi" The letter is 'alef (אַ) with a pataḥ underneath it indicating a vowel comparable to "car" (but shorter) and a "shin"(שׁ), indicating the "š" phoneme (as in English "shoot"). While "Eskenazi" is a common variant surname spelling among some (mostly Balkan Sefaradim), those with decent knowledge of Hebrew, the national language of the Jews, wouldn't use this transliteration in reference to this segment of the Jewish People known as Ashkenazim.

      maghrebi Arab,mashriki Arab,

      I'm not sure why you are bringing up Arabs, whether of North African, Levantine or other origins. Jews by definition are not Arabs, so how exactly is that pertinent?

      Falasha, Bukhari, Sefardí, urban European common-French or common-German, Roman, Piedmontese-Catalan, Byzantine…

      "Falasha" is a pejorative epithet used by Ethiopian Christians to refer to the Beita Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia. Bukhori Jews are an offshoot of Persian-speaking Jewry, who trace their origins to Ereṣ Yisra’el along with the other major Jewish groups. I have to correct your bad transliteration again, though. If you are going to be pedantic about accentuating the ultimate vowel in "Sefaradi", you need to know that there are four syllables. It's correctly transliterated Sefaradi, not "Sefardí" in English (if we were conducting this discussion en Castellano, maybe it would be correct to transliterate it as you do). Another hilarious misnomer is your reference to "Byzantines" in regard to the Jewish community that existed in the Byzantine Empire. The Jews who lived in the Byzantine Empire were a persecuted minority group and wouldn't have identified themselves (nor been identified by non-Jews), as part of a Byzantine "ethnos" and didn't have loyalty to the Byzantine state. Their descendants survived into the 20th century as Romaniote Jews, and most of them shared the same fate as their close kin, Sefaradi and Ashkenazi Jews, in the Nazi death camps.

      No common language (except liturgical), no common customs or traditions or food or anything –nothing that is not directly religious!

      Hebrew is the common national (and ancestral!) language of the Jews. Dispersal in various corners of the globe for 2,000 years will lead to cultural diversity with regards to things like cuisine. By your logic, the Chinese can't claim a common collective national or ethnic identity, they really no have common language except to the extent that a central government forces them to adopt a specific dialect of Mandarin as a standard, the cuisine in various regions is extremely divergent, and when it comes to the Chinese Diaspora, even more so.

      Come with one single, not directly religious-liturgical element common to all so-called nominal Jewish. Or stop polluting the air, because no common culture equals no common ethnicity. Period.

      To the extent that any group's conception of itself as a distinct people is objective, Jewish ethnic and national identity is an objective fact. You can assail and pick apart any population that calls itself a nation and find aspects that seemingly contradicts its perception of itself as a nation . There are fewer culturally unifying elements knitting all the groups who identify as Chinese into one nation than the Jews have. Jews (whether they believe in or observe any of the varieties of beliefs or ritual that have come to be known as "Judaism" in English) share common ancestry and have a common ancestral land. Religion was the vehicle for preserving Jewish national identity in the Diaspora. For those Jews who cling to religion specifically in its rabbinical form, it's the most (and for some, only) relevant thing. For Jews like me, with no belief in God (because belief in the "god" of Rabbinic Judaism is not necessary for one to be a Jew), the corpus of the Torah she bi'khtav and the Torah she'Ba'al Peh is a repository of literature, folklore and philosophy of my nation. I am very fortunate to have Hebrew, the national language of the Jews as my native language (even though I was born in the Diaspora), and its rhythms, its humor and poetry are intrinsically part of my being. I'm very happy that my twin daughters in Israel knew no other language for their first 9 years. Of course, those who are not ignoramuses are aware that there is a long tradition of secular Hebrew Iiterature in the Diaspora and it was never merely a liturgical language, as you assert.

      No amount of writing in Aramaic letters or insulting people for using their logic while being Goy will get you out of that rathole

      There's nothing insulting in calling someone a non-Jew a "goy". That's not his fault, nor is it a defect. And goyyim and Jews (like you) alike can always benefit by having their limitations and defects pointed out so that they may improve themselves.

    • Mooser November 27, 2016, 1:48 pm

      And to think that I hear Jews complaining about their entire families being lost in the Holocaust. They don’t know what suffering is, until they’ve been a “Catholic Jew” like Pablo Christiani or Johannes Pfefferkorn, and “Rafael”..

      You remind me more of Pfefferkorn (I wrote an undergrad paper on him and Reuchlin, and the Christian Hebraists many, many years ago) and Pablo Christiani much more than Rafael does.

      Rafael, IIRC and if his description of himself is to be believed and I see no reason why it shouldn't, is a product of intermarriage. Absent an Orthodox conversion, the Orthodox won't accept him as a Jew, but he's not going to do it, because he believes in Roman Catholicism. He still embraces his Jewish heritage and as someone with a Jewish father he had a right to make aliyah and get Israeli citizenship. His description of himself as a Catholic Jew rings true to me.

    • eljay November 26, 2016, 10:00 am

      || Mikhael: Of course this is not true. My Jewish identity is not contingent on any religious belief or ritual observance. … ||

      Your Jewish identity is fundamentally religion-based. No Judaism, no Jewish.

      No. It's not. I no longer practice or believe in Judaism in any meaningful way. I'm Jewish. I'm as Jewish as Maimonides.

      || … the religious definition of Jewish status primarily conceptualizes Jewish belonging in terms of ancestry … ||

      The religious definition of Jewish primarily conceptualizes that Jewish springs from Judaism

      No. It doesn't. It defines Jewish status based on ancestry and not in adoption of a creed. You're a goy, and in this matter, extremely ignorant; so your input in this respect (like most things you scribble) is not valid.

      || … I guess you’re not clued in to basic Christian or Islamic doctrine. Christianity famously demands of its believers that “There is neither Jew nor Gentile .. you are all one in Christ Jesus”. … ||

      Telling me what “Christianity famously demands” does not explain how a religious conversion to Christianity or Islam strips from a Jewish convert his non-religious ethnicity and nationality

      If you had read carefully what I wrote (you've admitted to your ADD and inability to focus in past posts, so you may not have understood) I actually stated quite clearly that a religious conversion of a Jew to Christianity or Islam does not in and of itself strip a Jew of his or her ethnicity and nationality. Although Orthodox Jews recoil at the thought and consider such beliefs a deviant and disgusting sin (just as they recoil at the thought of gay Jews -- never mind the fact that are Orthodox Jews leading closeted gay lives) , there are indeed Christian Jews (and there may be some Muslim Jews, I have yet to meet one).

      Nevertheless, the maxim ישראל אף על פי שחטא ישראל הוא applies in these cases.

      However, functionally speaking if a Jew adopts a creed that demands that he abnegate the Jewish aspect of his/her identity then the Jewish identity will disappear in that person's family. It is of course an individual's right to choose, therefore I condemn the tactics used by the group featured in this article. However, some people today believe you can be simultaneously a Jew and a Christian/Muslim, and I don't disagree, I just think that they have to adopt a version of Islam or Christianity that doesn't demand they renounce their Jewish identity and find a group of Jews who are willing to accept them as Jews. Orthodox Jews who believe that they are committing a grievous sin won't want to associate with them or would persecute them if they could, but still would have to admit that they are Jews. I would consider a Jew who willingly becomes a Christian to be somewhat distasteful or mentally disturbed, considering the harm that Christianity has done to Jews over the centuries, and I would be curious as to why, if such a person couldn't accept religious Judaism, he/she didn't simply become a Jewish atheist or agnostic. But I'd have to recognize that such a person is a Jew.

    • talknic November 26, 2016, 6:05 pm

      Palestinian according to maps in the Jewish National and University Library no less.

      http://wp.me/pDB7k-GO

      Poor Mikhael …

      Reasonable and informed people understand that maps showing a large area dubbed "Palestine" by European foreigners, using a vaguely descriptive name for the region roughly equivalent to "Holy Land" which include large chunks of territory that are presently governed by the Palestinian National Authority (in its Fatah and Hamas incarnations) and the State of Israel, as well as areas that are currently part of Lebanon and Syria (to the extent that the governments of the aforementioned states actually control territory given present circumstances), Egypt and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, don't demonstrate the existence of a Palestinian Arab nation-state or a geopolitical entity governing territory in the name of a Palestinian People in the past, nor do they prove the existence of national group claiming a Palestinian identity during that period. However, as a defender of the rights of national self-determination for all peoples, I certainly recognize that a group of non-Jews who lived in this region who speak Shami (Levantine) dialects of Arabic, due to the confrontation with Jewish nationalism (Zionism) have formed a distinct Palestinian national identity. It's certain that none of my ancestors ever regarded themselves as sharing in this self-definition, although some of my ancestors and relatives briefly were British Palestinian citizens during the Mandate period. I am, of course, a very strong advocate of a Palestinian Arab nation-state in the future, its borders with Israel to be determined, hopefully by mutual agreement between the governments of both peoples (if said agreement cannot be reached, the contours of such borders will have to be unilaterally decided by Israel). This would be first sovereign Palestinian-Arab nation state in recorded history known by that name.

    • Mooser November 26, 2016, 12:47 pm

      ” … but in my case, I come from a family that can document continual and unbroken residence in Galilee and Jerusalem from the 16th to the 21st centuries.”

      Mazel Tov “Mikhael”! Pat yourself on the tuchus and shout “Hooray!” You’re a Palestinian!

      You mean "MaZAL tov" not "Mazel tov". And it's "taḤath" not "tuches". However, considering that I was born in Boston, to Israeli-Jewish parents, citizens of Israel (who duly registered my birth with the Israeli Consulate as required by Israeli law) in 1970, more than 22 years after the British Mandate of Palestine ceased to exist, there is no way that I can be a "Palestinian-American", but I have held dual Israeli and American citizenship since I was born. My late father, who was born in Jerusalem in 1932, was a Palestinian citizen for almost the first 16 years of his life, but his "Palestinian" status permanently ended when "Palestine" ended in May, 1948.

      His parents were born in Jerusalem in 1900 and 1904, and held Ottoman citizenship from birth until 1925. They first became "Palestinians" only after the British introduced the category of Palestinian citizenship and started issuing Palestinian identity documents, first to the former Ottoman citizens residing in the Mandate, Jews, Arabs, Armenians , Greeks and others, and then to other people,including many long-term resident Ashkenazi Jews whose families had been living in places like Jerusalem,Hebron, Sefat and Tiberias for centuries but who had been under the diplomatic protection of foreign consulates (like Imperial Russia and Austria-Hungary). In addition to the long-term resident Jews, whether Sefaradi families like my paternal ancestors who had been in the country some four centuries at the time of the British conquest, or religious Ashkenazi families whose families had come in waves from the late 17th through the 19th centuries, the other group of Palestinian Jews in the British period were the Zionist pioneers who came in the early 20th century, people like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir. Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir both held British-issued Palestinian citizenship documents at one point in their lives, thus they were as legitimately Palestinian during that period as my father was, his parents, or Yasser Arafat, because that's all being Palestinian meant at the time. Luckily for my family, on May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was declared and all of my erstwhile Palestinian relatives as well as other Jews who formerly held Palestinian citizenship documents permanently ceased to be Palestinian and joyfully embraced their Israeli identity.

      gee, considering your family comes from Brooklyn (you’ve got an archive, chump)

      For such an avid archivist, you've done really poor research. No gotchas! in my Mondo archives. Since you're so interested, my family lived in Brooklyn, and most of my upbringing and formative years were there (with some detours in the Midwest and back in Israel for a few of my childhood years) . So while an argument can be made that I am from Brooklyn (but not quite, as I mentioned above and as I'm sure you'll find confirmation in my archive, to my chagrin I was born in a 2nd-rate city called Boston, MA and even lived in flyover country (Lincoln, NE) for a couple of years as a kid), my family is certainly not. My father traced 17 generations in Ereṣ Yisra’el to a well-known Sefaradi/Mizrahi rabbinic and mercantile family, my mother's family came to Israel as Hungarian Ashkenazi refugees from Hitler. They raised a family mostly in Brooklyn -- Gravesend (with the Syrian-Jewish community) and later Boro Park but they were not but not from Brooklyn.

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