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Total number of comments: 29 (since 2013-03-17 13:09:42)

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  • BDS or emigration: pick one
    • ‘He writes that if BDS actually took hold, the elites would leave, as happened in South Africa:’

      Has anybody ever doubted that if Israel was ever forced to comply with the original partition agreement — which was unjust — there would be an exodus?

      ‘They must ask themselves if for the chance of ending the occupation, they’re willing to sacrifice the prospect of a prosperous, liberal, democratic Israel in recognized borders.’

      Difficult to know where to start!

      Prosperous? Six million Jews living on stolen land, using the Palestinians as if not slave labour, then certainly indentured labour, compelling the incarcerated Palestinians to buy their food products, flogging off the Palestinians natural resources, a war crime, and receiving a mere 3.3 billion $US a year?

      Is there a ‘nation’ or religious sect anywhere that would not be ‘prosperous’ under such conditions?

      A ‘liberal’ (1. accepting different opinions and ways of behaving and tending to be sympathetic to other people) ‘democratic’ (all citizens must be equal before the law) in recognised boarders. The Palestinians would be overjoyed — back to the 1948 proposal as a beginning for negotiations.

      Past time the myth of this tiny religous group fighting overwhelming odds — it was never true.

  • To my fellow Israelis: We can stop this
    • And yet again another Israeli Jew, or a Jew in any event, learns and understands the truth, the fact that Israel is built upon a litany of lies, that the numerous 'wars of survival' were merely attacks by a vicious, far better armed and more numerous bunch of war criminals than those who were supposedly 'an existential threat'.
      The Palestinians were from day one, day one being around 1880, 1890, the victims of colonisers, of the various governments who were supposed to be in control of, or administrating the Palestinian territory.
      The British either actively took part in such events as described above, or at best promised villagers under threat that if they gave up their (few) guns, they would protect them, and them stood by and watched the slaughter.

  • We must break out of the paranoid survival myth
    • Rosross: There is nothing in your comment that I disagree with.

      Overall you have made an excellent contribution to this discussion.

      my respects: Peter

    • This is one of the very few articles that I have seen that gets close to the truth, that recognises that it is the Jews who have the problem.

      After approximately 15 years of activism I have not heard ay of the Jews who decry Israelis treatment of the Palestinians come out and say/accept that they must return that that was stolen, pay reparations, compensation and continue paying until the damage done has been to some extent ameliorated. Rather I have heard that the Palestinians must make concessions — concessions when all they owned has been stolen from them?

      The Israeli experiment is against history, against the trend of the times, and surviving only because the US has intervened, propped it up, blocked diplomatic initiatives. But the US is no longer top dog, or the ‘super power’. Political reality will inevitably catch up, compels the US to abandon the Israeli cause. At that point Israel will cease to be, in its present form.

  • African leaders want indictments of Bush, Blair and Netanyahu -- NPR
  • Netanyahu under siege, in 'the most embattled democracy on earth'
    • You people ought to get in touch with Miko Peled, author of 'The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine,' who has only recently made that journey. He lives in the US.

  • Haneen Zoabi's power and vision (and answers to Theodore)
    • David: thanks you for that, it has given me some much-needed information.

    • And therefore cannot be a state?

    • A state MUST have defined borders --- Israel does not have defined borders ---- therefore is not a state?

    • I had the privilege of hearing Haneen Zoabi in Sydney Australia, on a Friday in the NSW parliament, on the following Sunday at a Palestinian where she spoke in Arabic under a Palestinian flag.
      I was privileged to be able to have a few minutes conversation with her.
      If you can get to one of her engagements, go, ow ever difficult it is to get there!
      In all of my getting to be a reasonably long life I have had little time for politicians --- any politician.
      To Haneen I gave my card and my word that if ever she was in need, if there was the slightest chance I could be of assistance, contact me and all of my resources will be extended to you.
      She is one of the most impressive people that I have ever met, perhaps the most impressive.

  • Just like the Nazis, Iran 'plans to exterminate six million Jews' -- Netanyahu
  • First they came for the Palestinians . . .
    • Holocaust: The fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo, the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; all fit exactly the meaning of holocaust.

      The Jews merely suffered the horrors of war, along with most of the rest of the world.

  • David Remnick undermines Israel's one-state president
    • I am old enough to remember the arrogance of Apartheid South Africa, remember too, the destruction of the Berlin Wall.

      Neither of these things could happen, it just wasn't possible. In both cases their demise was swift and unstoppable.

      Today we hear that Israel will not be anything but a murderous Jewish state, that is is --- laughably -- 'a world power'!

      When reality takes hold, the US withdrawing its political support, and/or ceasing its military support, and Israel must negotiate for its existence, or the rest of the world finally tiring of this vicious upstart, and isolating it from all commerce ---- the possibilities are endless and probably none of the above, Israel will be gone like the morning mists.

  • Netanyahu's 'battle for Jerusalem' can't end well for any of us
    • 'DANIEL NEVO: Most of 1.8 billion Muslims in the world don’t really care about reality or about the facts. What they care is some of the imams will say that the Jews are conquesting or penetrating Al-Aqsa. It’s enough. And it is enough to put every Israeli and Jew all around the world in jeopardy.'

      He is right, but laying the blame in the wrong place. Cannot Jews understand that Israel has branded them fairly or not, as a part of the problem.

      Just why the Jews have not distanced themselves from this inclusion is difficult to fathom, for if the Israeli Jews ever take to throwing nukes around, there will be no place on earth safe for a Jew.

      Before people scream 'racist', I do not believe that any nation will get away with using nukes in today's world. There was considerable angst over fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo and that was at the end of a brutal war.

  • 'One nation, one state, one leader' -- frightening slogan at Tel Aviv protest
    • '‘One nation, one state, one leader’ ----- with just a little fixing ---

      One nation, one person, one vote, ongoing --- no Israel!

  • Three critical responses to 'Growing Jewish support for boycott'
    • An excellent three articles, of which there ought be more of, and more widely disseminated!
      Omar Barghouti makes a point which ought to be hammered every time the subject of Israel comes up:
      ‘This assumes, contrary to fact and logic, that Israel is already a democratic state! Why else would you want to “preserve” it?’ As does Mich Levy:
      ‘This goal becomes irrelevant, and worse, misleading, with the acknowledgement of history and fact that there is no “democratic Israel” to preserve.’
      ‘But “current” Zionist policies have been consistent prior to, during and after the founding of the Israeli state. They reflect a coherent history of Zionist ideology manifested through Zionist institutions, erected over a hundred years ago, which became the foundation of a Zionist state. The building of Zionist infrastructure in Palestine throughout the first part of the 20th century systematically excluded Palestinian people (other than Jews) from political and economic power.’
      There is unlimited literature indicating that the Zionist program — or ought that be pogrom? — never intended for the Palestinians to be a part of it.
      Then Jamie Stern-Weiner’s, point:
      ‘most Jews do not support the BDS platform, either because of what it contains or because of its failure to declare a position on Israel’s existence.’
      If one is supporting the Palestinian cause, then the question of Israel’s existence is of little importance, and is finally in the hands of the Israelis. Assuming a political shift across the globe that forces Israel to comply with international law, which would mean outrun to Palestinians, return of property and reparations, along with one vote one person in a secular state, I would assume that most Israelis would vanish like the morning mist, but probably faster.

      In such a situation there is no reason to believe that ‘Israel’ would even continue to exist. Logically it revert to its rightful status of Palestine.
      “the question is no longer whether or not to boycott, but rather to what extent do we boycott?” At least as crucial, however, is the question, until when do we boycott—until the BDS platform is realised, or until Israel acts in accordance with the international consensus of ending the occupation and achieving a just resolution of the refugee question?
      Until there is one secular state, with all citizens equal before the law.

  • Dershowitz disqualifies an entire continent from supporting BDS, citing history of 'Jew hatred'
  • 'Israel is the home of all Jews,' declares a right-wing official
    • Not forgetting that when it was finally put down, 1938, peasant farmers up against the might of the British Empire --- 'the Arabs', spoken of so often, so contemptuously, as being unable to fight! --- and negotiations were beginning the Brits asked that all the villages and towns nominate their leaders, those who were to negotiate for them, and Brits went around a shot those nominated.

      There is who claim that some were jailed, some forced into exile. None claim that 'some were not shot out of hand.

      That, plus the training and arming of the Jews/Zionists, plus the Brits assisting in the ousting of whole village populations by the various Zionist gangs was why there was little or no organised resistance in 1948.

      Palestinians have been sold out all down the line by fort the British, and then the Yanks.

      But of course, they were not 'white'.

  • Journalist David Sheen delivers blistering indictment on Israel's racist war on African migrants
    • It seems that Israel and Australia have something in common. All refugees are economic refugees, and they are only coming to either country because it is such a wonderful country!

      Both countries work on the principle of making conditions so unlivable for the refugees that they will move elsewhere .... anywhere, but 'here'. The 'we stole this country and we will be damned if we intend sharing it with any others ---- and that includes those whose country it is!'

      "Let us approach them [the Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories] and say that we have no solution, that they shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wants to can leave -- and we will see where this process leads. In five years we may have 200,000 less people - and that is a matter of enormous importance." Moshe Dayan September 1967

      Nothing has changed.

  • Anti-anti-semitism: How did a movement against bigotry lend itself to another form of bigotry?
    • This really is tiresome.

      The expulsion of the Palestinians and the gifting of Palestine to the Zionists had nothing to do with the holocaust, and everything to do with principally the Brits attitude to colonisation, and from a later date, but still before the holocaust, the US.

      The Palestinians made every effort to reach some sort of accommodation with the Zionists/British, to no avail. Simply put the Zionists were never going to be satisfied with anything less than the whole of Palestine and chunks of the surrounding countries, and the Brits were never going to permit the Palestinians to control anything.

      This despite the fact that approximately 13,000 Palestinians fought on the side of the British. (bloody idiots!!)

  • 'It was clear to me as a black person just what I was seeing around me': Report from an African-American delegation to Israel/Palestine
    • 'I could not help but continuously wonder how such a tragedy was possible. And the truth is uncomfortably simple: Silence allowed the Holocaust to happen.'

      The very reason that the Palestinians suffer ---- is it apartheid? hell, they have Jews only, roads! --- the very reason that the Israelis get away, and have gotten away with genocide 70 or 80 years --- yes, it started long before 1948.

      For evil to flourish, it takes only good people to remain silent.

  • Israel's real fear is BDS and 'delegitimization,' says Goldberg
    • Right of return, restoration of their property, restitution, damages ----
      How many Israelis/Jews would remain? How many when they had to pay a price for what they have stolen?

      I would guess, not many.

    • So the law is unconstitutional — “we will not be able to defend this decision in the High Court.”

      Some chance of defending it outside of Israel, then!

      ‘Habayit Hayehudi responded to Livni in a statement: “The law will help protect IDF soldiers from immoral legal claims funded by foreign entities.’

      Does this translate into: ‘If there are no ‘foreign entities’ then there will be less evidence, or less witnesses to IDF atrocities?”

      ‘ The appeal by Minister Livni is irresponsible. Every day this bill is barred from becoming a law, IDF soldiers are in danger and their activities undermined.’

      If the IDF is not engaged in any activities that are against international law, then there can, or could be no problem. If witnesses put some restraint upon IDF personnel it can only be because they are knowingly operating outside international law. (Surprise)

      Livni would do us all a favor if she put her political considerations on the side and not delay the legislation of this bill.” ”

      Anybody out there prepared to defend the actions of the IDF?

    • In my 70 odd years I have never heard any other country voice concern for its legitimacy, nor bleat continuously about being ‘hated’.

      That Israel is illegitimate is beyond dispute, if for no other reason that its land grab was out of time.

      To there eternal complaint that they are being judged differently to the US, Canada, Australia, etc, the answer is of course you are being judged differently, two world wars had been fought, international law had been changed dramatically and the seizing of land by the use force had been made a war crime.

      With time the world changes, laws change, one cannot justify or excuse a crime under modern law by referring to some past era.

      Despite the fact that some were prepared to overlook this inconvenient fact and support ‘negotiations’ the fact is that the Israelis have not complied with a single agreement, despite the Palestinians attempting to comply in good faith, Israel has simply trundled on, complying with nothing.

      The second reason that Israel has no legitimacy is that as it has not complied with any agreement over the years, none of those agreements have any validity — a point that the Palestinians fail to capitalise on.

      Handled properly, taken to an international court, the Palestinians ought begin by challenging the validity and equity of the proposed 1947/48 proposal. It was obviously unreasonable to offer the Jews 55 percent of Palestine, when they owned approximately six percent of the land, and were significantly less than 50 percent of the population. Then there is the question as to whether or not the UN had any right to be ‘giving’ away fifty percent of a land over which they had no rights.

      Israel’s concerns for being illegitimate are well founded, as to their concerns that they are ‘hated’, could that not be a reflection of their own self loathing?

      PS: do not bother to call me antisemitic, apart from being tiresome and intellectually lazy, I support the Palestinians on this issue and they speak Arabic, the most widely spoken Semitic language on earth.

  • An Israeli settler says Obama demands Palestine deal for Iran
    • something meaningless to those chanting it

      That is poorly put.

      something that those chanting it do not know what the words mean ---- which of course does not make it 'meaningless' to those who believe the ritual.

    • Jon: Used as a liturgy, something meaningless to those chanting it, like Latin across the globe, seems probable. However a language that had to be 'revived', seems to be an unlikely language for scholarship --- the 'problem' with language is that in expanding or creating new ideas, new realities, is finding the necessary words.
      the skill of (some) poets is that they manage to convey what some feel, but cannot verbalise.
      As kids learn without difficulty a song in a foreign language, and sing it happily without understanding what is actually being said --- as we did with songs in Maori, though with a smidgin of understanding, and at least one in, I believe Italian, where we had not the faintest idea.
      In my early twenties I had a Swiss friend who spoke seven languages fluently, English not being one of them. He however won a speech contest in Wellington, NZ, in English.
      We used to argue about the meaning of a word, go to the dictionary and his definition would fit the first given, often obsolete.
      When I asked how, he told me that in their 'village' of about 5,000 people, t village language was --- I no longer recall --- but it was effectively Latin.
      This however did not affect the description of Latin as a 'Dead Language', as eGuard says.
      I thank you for your input. I will now write to Noam Chomsky and ask if he will be so kind --- or ought that be generous --- as to enlighten me.

    • First off, thanks to Jon & ziusudra.

      ‘Eliezer Ben Yehuda (1858-1922), who was the first to make exclusive use of Hebrew in his home, and encouraged the use of Hebrew among others, as well as its use in schools.’

      I do not have to hand, as it was some time ago that I read that Eliezer Ben Yehuda reconstructed the Hebrew language. If the language exists, why would you reconstruct it?

      Some quick checking indicates that Hebrew was at least in some instances used in religious ceremony, but not as a spoken, ‘everyday ‘ language. That Hebrew was so limited that it required ‘work’ to make it a working language. Hence the ‘Modern Hebrew’, and the questioning as to if it ought be considered a ‘constructed language’.

      You have just added to my overlong reading list!

    • 'Jewish culture made huge strides over 2 millennia. '

      During which they prayed that they might return?

      How is it then that they, their religious scholars 'lost' their language?
      The Roman Catholic church over the same period kept their Latin.

      'The Ashkenazim have zero genetic connection to Shangri la.'

      That ought to be blind obvious to everybody ---- except when you are basing the morality on a land grab on it, of course!

    • 'not all Jews are committed as we are. They don’t have the resolve. I used to go to Gaza on business during the Gush Khatif days, he said, and I met Palestinians. They are determined to wait us out. They have resolve. I don’t know if the Jews do. All these Jews who are moving to the United States–'
      ' The Palestinians have waited you out from the beginning. It could work.'

      The Jews had never left ---- they just managed to lose 'their' language, somewhere along the line ---- lose your language? THE most dominant part of of what makes a tribe, a cohesive group, a society ---- LOSE your language?

      Either they will be 'waited out', or finally tiring of them the Palestinians will drive them out. Deluded as you may be, 7 million opposed by some proportion of 350 million 'friends'.

      The US is their anchor. when its people tire of supporting Israel with their taxes, when politically the US can no longer provide muscle, whichever is the sooner, Israel must negotiate if it is to have any sort of 'survival'. On its history in the area, the Palestinians would have to be very forgiving to leave Israelis with anything.

      'The Palestinians have waited you out from the beginning. It could work.'

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