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One summer in Germany, a while back, I met many returning US kibbutzim. The exuberance and energy was affecting. Influenced by that, a few months later in college I started to physically protest/jeer from the Israeli perspective. On one occasion we all headed to the Cleveland City Club to hear and jeer Chomsky. Between our interruptions (which he handled gracefully with a "noted" and went on), I heard him speak about water theft. For some reason, being as swept up in the Uris-like glow about Israel as I was, I had never heard (listened?) or asked about anything remotely disturbing about Israel. Afterward I started asking basic questions like, "If this is true, how can one people do this to another people, and we cheer it on?" and got few even marginally responsive answers. All the contradictions between Israel-reality and Israel-myth that appear here, were present even then. The veil was pierced and my perspective flipped almost immediately. It was the '70s, Kent State, and we were supposed to be FOR civil rights. FOR everybody. I felt grossly stupid and more than a little betrayed. My former physical tactics and experience mirror what goes on here an in the larger net world. I understand the desperate need (by Israel) to clamp the lid down hard (and keep it clamped) on the deeply troubling reality of everyday Palestinian life. It also suggests that just one little glimmer of reality that gets through can make a difference, one person at a time. One never knows which glimmer that might be...

Showing comments 4290 - 4201

  • Young Jews won't cry over the end of the Zionist dream, Beinart says
    • Agree completely. What’s happening in Gaza now is so ghoulish that it’s a binary. You’re either sickened/appalled by it and anyone who has to do so much as scratch their head about the morality of ongoing, unrepentant mass murder, or you’re a participant (enablers being participants). This has moved so far past a “haggling for hearts and minds” phase that it’s hard to contemplate that that was ever a method.

      One either believes mass murder is acceptable or one does not. Not a difficult choice imho.

  • IDF claims most Gazan casualties were 'accidental'
  • Israeli government justifies killing child protesters in Gaza: They're not in school
    • Classic circularity. Do you think Bennet knew that when he made the statement, was counting on other readers to NOT know it, and consider it plausible (ie. just plausible enough to effectively imply Palestinians are violent slackers from childhood)?

      Seems like that omission is a method, rather than an oversight.

  • 'Youtube' removes video tribute to Yaser Murtaja and other Gaza victims as 'sensational' incitement
  • In Photos: While the world watches Gaza, Israeli forces invade Nabi Saleh
    • You can’t be this dense. They’re not mutually exclusive. OK? Especially in the peculiar 50 yr history of this occupation.

  • Roger Cohen scares his readers: 'the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state'
    • Yonah, that's such old-think. Israel is moving the "gates" beyond where the exiles currently live.

      It's not what the Palestinians want, it's what Israel is doing.

      Done deal.

    • Thanks pgtl10.

      I just had a Twitter exchange with this thought process. The assertion was that Palestinians, by throwing rocks and burning tires, "were hurting their cause" and thereby enabling the world to justify their oppression. Absolutely ZERO acknowledgement (let alone consideration) of the fact that 19 Palestinian protesters had been murdered on their own land BEFORE a single rock had been thrown.

      The combined underlying assumption and implication was that Palestinians are genetic whiners who are quickly enraged to violence by nothing at all.

      What [self-?]manipulative garbage. Calling it racist almost doesn't do it justice. It's a closed-loop, system-of-systems, self-regenerating belief system with oppression and murder as its objectives and expressions.

      And yeah, "It’s thoughts like that which makes racists like Cohen continue their policies." is spot on. I suspect his fear of a Jewish-Israel sharing power with a bunch of angry whiners is overwhelming - despite the ultimate, all-consuming irony of that notion.

    • Thanks for the perspective gamal.


  • Come in, Natalie, the water's fine
    • They don’t care, JWalters. Those are Palestinians. They don’t matter.

      I hate to say that, but I’ve never seen anything to suggest otherwise. Even disaffected Jewish-Israelis would rather leave than ally with Palestinian citizens of Israel to effect common goals. It’s really sad.

    • Hi just. I wonder if anyone has asked the leaders of [all] the Jewish-Israeli parties if and/or what they would do differently in this situation. Slightly less psychopathic, more of the same/silence, or something else. As Mr. Ofir points out, the “Netanyahu did it!!” blather is total evasion.

      I haven’t seen anything remotely resembling an alternative “approach” from Jewish-Israeli “leaders.” Total silence.

  • As Israel becomes a political liability it is time to challenge its enablers
  • Netanyahu says Israeli snipers are doing ‘holy work’
    • Define "invade."

    • "patently" = glaringly, murderously, psychopathically (zero empathy over decades), approved at the highest levels (over decades), mindlessly, unprosecuted ever, routinely, remorselessly... Idk, I probably missed a few dozen.

      B'Tselem is a remarkably courageous and consistent org. No "but." I think this is their way of saying "heinous" without using the word "heinous" (or similar). Not sure what the restriction is on word selection given the level of unrepentant depravity exhibited by Israel on Good Friday - and REPEATED a week later. Again, not a criticism nor a suggested incongruity.

      Thanks B'Tselem.

    • Is this the "holy" work that Schumer says the Palestinians reject (blames the Palestinians for not believing in) when he assigns blame to them for the lack of "peace" in Palestine?

  • Israeli sniper films shooting of unarmed Palestinian -- and celebrates
    • OK. Did homework.

      Happened on 12.22.17 in protest against Trump's embassy relocation announcement.

      Idk. The pattern is clear, to me, but the congealing of specific intent to kill protesting, unarmed Palestinians on their own land remains diffused.

    • The timing of this video is critically important. If it was some months ago it could be as the Israelis claim, the “bad apple” defense. If it was on Good Friday it shows a command-level “knew where every bullet was going” premeditation and greenlight for this behavior on that day. One is some unfocused, random event, the other is proof of admitted intent in a specific event.

      Huge difference, to me anyway.

  • Slain Palestinian journalist's media org vows to hold Israel accountable 'for this heinous crime'
  • Video shows Israeli interrogators attempting to coerce confession from Ahed Tamimi
    • Yes Ahed, when you go to the beach do you get sunburned? (Has she ever been to the Med?)

      Occupation reinforced. End of conversation, if in fact there was a conversation to end.

      And why do I get the feeling that this vid was released to show the world how WELL Ahed al-Tamimi was being treated?

  • Seven things you need to know about Israel's latest attack on Gaza
    • Dianna Buttu: In addition to those physical borders, the Israeli army has been enforcing what they call a buffer zone, which is about 1,000 feet away from the electrified fence. We know that when Palestinians approached the buffer zone on the eastern side, the Israelis immediately started shooting Palestinian protesters.

    • Self-invidious-izing indeed! :)

    • One of the best things anyone could do to inform people on this would be to construct a timeline. At the moment we have competing still images without a timeline context.

      Major question is what was happening before the shooting/murders started. This isn’t an attempt to justify the unjustifiable. It’s a request because the Israeli/MSM image flood is post-tear gas and shooting, thus supporting the “clashes” fiction and not the unjustified use of force (murder) reality.

  • Israel just lost American Jews
    • You can also shift the Venn diagram a bit by applying American Jewish “community” responses ranging from silence about mass murder, to outright support for mass murder and say that American Jews have lost America on this one. This is just that blatant and bad.

      Clearly a notable subset of American Jews have stridently condemned this ghoulish [pattern of] behavior, but by and large it’s been silence, equivocation, and/or outright support. I think that if you ask Americans whether mass murder is ever acceptable behavior most (but sadly, not by any means all) would say no. So, bit of a moral divide there.

      I’d love to see a poll on this. One using blunt questions. I could just be full of it, and most Americans do support mass murder.

  • Israeli 'terror' propaganda is itself incitement to state-terror
    • And, as CigarGod has pointed out, the other 1500 wounded? 800(?) shot?

      How did they know to shoot these people dead? With pictures at the ready? Part of the plan? Were these guys unarmed, part of the protest, identified by spotters as Hamas, and shot to provide this deflection to mass murder?

  • Killing Palestinian protesters turns into a PR debacle for Israel
    • "They are responsible for “calculated” killings of unarmed civilians in violation of international law, the human rights group states, warning that Israeli leaders could face prosecution abroad.

      "Human Rights Watch reaches two key conclusions: the Israeli violence against Palestinians was premeditated, illegal under international law, and ordered at the highest level; and Israel has presented no evidence whatsoever of any credible threat that would justify the violence it used on the day."

      Premeditated killing of unarmed protesters on their own land. This is as bad as it gets.

      I try to enter the psychopathic collective consciousness of a Jewish Israel that can see Palestinian human beings as such nothing that something like this can be conceived as anything less than mass murder, let alone implemented and then bragged afterward about how carefully it was planned (IDF on Twitter, since scrubbed, i think EI has a screen shot), and cannot. It's just soulless behavior. It ain't going away.

      Q: What is the silence in LibZio circles supposed to accomplish? Not getting that. Not murder? Murder not so bad...Other pressing issues? Murder OK? We don't know what to think about murder...Need help puzzling this out/Please help us decide? What???

    • Well said CigarGod.

    • "...It should be replaced with how much easier it will be to kill Palestinians."

      Which was the point all along.

    • Uh...Yup!

      Good one, LHunter.

  • 'NY Times' covers up Israel's killing of nonviolent protesters along the Gaza border
    • Applying Syria intervention logic to this situation, invoking the “shooting unarmed civilians” rule, the clamor for regime change in Israel would be deafening, the CIA would already be sending ATGMs and MANPADS to Hamas, and Nikki Haley would be jumping up and down on her UN desk, pulling her hair out in clumps, declaring an imminent US attack on the perps.

      The NYT would have been at the forefront of that clamor. No baseless accusation too ludicrous to enhance.

      I guess that, to me, there is hiding and obfuscation in play here, but it feels like there’s more to it than that. Something more like incorruptible UNTRUTH about everything, guiding everything they do.

      IDK. FWIW

    • Thanks eljay.

      Truly astounding. These people truly cannot be at all well.

  • Older Jews are officially terrified of young Jews' views of Israel
    • Yeah, if Israel is so confidently self-sufficient, what's all the fuss about the existential/non-threat (on any given day) of BDS?

    • And if one doesn't present in a timely manner, they'll make one up out of whole "new antisemitism" cloth.

    • 1.3 MILLION followers1 Not even a pretense of objectivity at Facebook. What are the options?

      First they came for the Palestinians...

    • shb “...perchance to embrace, and be embraced by...”

    • It seems that this is where the great fear of assimilation comes from. If you go outside the echo chamber, and encounter, perchance to embrace, a more universal/empathic sense of right and wrong, Israel is toast (barring some sort of major course correction or effective media campaign).

      So the preferred corrective option here is of course to shame "deviants", never to enable moral affinity (for everyone) through supportable moral corrections.

  • The problem with Passover
  • The barriers
    • Almost forgot...

      On the "what have Arabs done?" orientalism, and the "women are treated better..." orientalism, the comeback is that Arab/Muslim democracies have been subverted since the get go. OK, since WWII in the modern sense. The seeming lack of Arab contributions to society is not only baloney, but engineered. Ipso facto.

      Syria is case in point. Stephen Gowans book documents this process. It just IS. NO society can aspire and prosper with that kind of perpetual, external onslaught. NONE. Even so, the so-called Arab Spring did not work in Syria because, despite all this external subversion (way beyond some innocuous concept of "intervention") Syrians were Syrians. Syrians liked Syria, within the rails of violent overthrow.

      Gowans' book is an amazingly illustrative perspective on/counter to the glib, "orientalist" toss off, dinner party contention.

    • As pretty much every commenter has pointed out, almost none of the rebuttals to Phil's entrés are factually true. I find it impossible to refute everything, so in these conversations, once I get the sense (two comments in) that the quibble is false, I just suggest to the person I'm speaking with that nearly EVERYTHING they've heard about this conflict is demonstrably wrong. Start from scratch. That may insult (probably does) people who pride themselves in complex, fact-based thought but it puts the proverbial ball in their court to find out. They'll either ask questions and expand horizons, or they'll close down (in which case you were never going to reach them anyway).

      As someone upthread has mentioned, talknic's site is a great source for this question-asking/fact retrieval. (Hope talknic is OK...)

      Eljay's analogies work well also. Gets their attention and gets "them" to lean in as they try to disprove a totally supportable factual reality.

      Dinner parties are tough though. I like bar talk more. :) Direct points are made more forcefully, and sluffed commensurately (in real time) , to be recalled/reviewed in non real-time.

      Well done PW. Well asked. Well navigated. Insight into this dilemma helps us all...


  • Trump appointed Bolton because Republicans desperately need Adelson's money
    • War with Iran means the end of economic life as we know it, globally. Strait of Hormuz would be closed, oil would go to $500/bbl, to us (OBOR still operable), Sovereign debt with China would be unsupportable at the jump in interest rates, China would call its US debt, or at least stop buying it. Tbill interest rates hit 15%. (I may slightly exaggerate, but it's a delicate balance which could swing wildly.)

      Business stability/pragmatism has always kinda guided our foreign policy (some "nastiness," tic, here and there, but never outright cataclysm).

      Are these people that completely ignorant/psychopathic?

      Tosses coin....

      PS, We in the US are shielded, by policy, from the effects of our perpetual wars on others - the millions of dead in other countries from our destruction - so there's a strong popular sense here, imo, that Bolton doesn't matter - to us. It/he won't affect our trips to the mall. Oh well.

    • It was always "doomed" in the US. But is it "doomed" elsewhere? Is this a break point?

  • Ron Lauder's two-state epiphany elicits rage and condescension in Israel
    • Where the conversation should start, not dance around. These are really bad people discussing how to get away with another 70 years of violent subjugation and zero-sum self-interest.

  • Memo to 'NYTimes:' Go to Ahed Tamimi's village in Palestine and report the truth
    • Excellent article James North.

    • Bingo.

      The numbers (iirc) are something like 600K Palestinians in “Area C” in 1970, and 50K now. Ghettoizing Palestinians is top-level occupation policy. Any maniacal imposition to that end is useful and encouraged.

  • Ahed Tamimi, 17, to serve 8 months in prison for slapping soldier in occupied village
  • The struggle against colonialism: a review of 'Why Palestine Matters'
    • Ms. Elia, your writing is consistently discerning and holistic. I hope the editors of this book contact you for a contribution. It would be a valued addition.

      In particular “Why Palestine Matters” might include what you mention in this aticle - empowering and fronting more PALESTINIAN voices/enhancing Palestinian leadership efforts. I think this is not a small thing.

      This conflict is so peculiarly intractable in so many ways that if a successful Palestinian (i.e. indigenous) leadership strategy were to be crafted it would resonate outward to other struggles with common elements of oppression.

  • Abbas calls US Ambassador to Israel a 'son of a bitch,' ambassador accuses Abbas of antisemitism
  • The amended 'Israel Anti-Boycott Act' is still unconstitutional, and still must be stopped
    • Great news!!

      It looks like Washington got rid of its anti-SLAPP law, but I hope that the claimants in this are responsible for the entire cost of the defense. Maybe there's some add-on for frivolous lawsuits too.

    • The Export Administration Act was designed to regulate commercial activity by outlawing contractual conditions set by the Arab League countries requiring certain commercial behavior. It was a "fair trade" or "restraint of trade" law. Completely constitutional, however aggravating that may in terms of generating leverage.

      How a law outlawing political speech/activity by individuals - however initially motivated - builds on that is unfathomable and/or impossible at the root level.

  • Zionism, anti-Semitism, Israel — and the UK Labour party
    • I hope that Corbyn can craft an orthogonal tactic to this baloney.

      None of the accusations are even remotely true. But they seem to be repeated. Maybe repetition against evidence will eventually be the source of his victory, but with the aggressively, incessantly insinuated "wrongdoing" he will, imho, have to craft a "what about" response or something more clever.

  • Schumer and Dems outdo Trump at AIPAC-- there's no peace because 'Palestinians don't believe in Torah'
    • In "Schumer-speak" "Land of the Rising Sun" = QED and/or Carte Blanche and/or "What's all the fuss about anyway?"

      Great comment Danaa.

    • Does Schumer really intend to or want to go down the, "My book says I can do what I want" road?

      It's difficult to imagine a more dangerous political line. I'll skip the analogies.

      This contention should be rejected utterly, and condemned loudly and often by all people. But it won't.

      If I was Jewish this would scare the crap out of me. Heh, I'm not Jewish and it still scares the crap out of me.

    • Thanks Misterioso. I learn a lot from your links.

      Maybe some deeper questioning about WHY such an "anti-Israel" yet truthful OP-ED piece would be published in the WaPo is in order.

      Is the WaPo challenging conventional wisdom? To what end? "Testing the waters" via comments? Moving on from Neo Lib/Con FP politics to support a more domestic biz beneficence?

      There's something going on there.

    • Again, it's not about "Young Jews" being exposed to this hypocrisy. It's about EVERYONE being exposed to this hypocrisy, and acting accordingly.

      How would anyone, anyone at all, accept or reject this dogma? Most would not, upon being made aware.. The fact that "young Jews" are in that set is maybe encouraging, but also pretty much inconsequential, outside the "Jewish Power" construct.

    • @Grover


      He's the uniting factor in inclusive-Israeli politics...if equal rights is the objective.

  • Educators need to denounce the smear tactics of Canary Mission
    • If I still had my business, I would go to Canary Mission to find qualified people to hire. Anyone they list has profound courage, and that courage can only translate into enterprise and/or loyalty.

      A Canary Mission "listing" is a positive, not a negative, unless you subscribe to the belief that supporters of Israel rule the world.

  • The case for liberal anti-Zionism
    • Thank you Annie and RoHa for your kindness.

    • Yes, you're right Annie. Sorry to you and Phil for the overgeneralization. Since the stroke I've been getting less and less able to contemplate nuance. My bad.

      I guess this particular article cut it too thin for me. I'm not sure if MLK would be credibly counseled to accept "separate-but-equal" types (liberal Zionists is this context) into the civil rights movement, nor would he be credibly criticized for not doing so. I see it as the same thing here (in say 95%+/- of Zionist cases).

      The "only go this way" part came from the shunning of Allison Weir. She was ejected for allegedly violating some vaguely-defined exclusion principles regarding Jews, whereas here counsel is given to accept people into the movement for Palestinian rights who do FAR worse (the two-state, separate-but-sorta-equal concept being the least offensive) as a consistent pattern over a far longer period of time. I don't know. It just struck me as being a one-way consideration. Weir is back in or Zionists are excluded, would seem to me to be the consistent, non-ethnicly differentiating position. I get confused why when one is so categorically PNG, the other is tolerated.


    • Great comment.

    • I love this site. It is/you all are courageous imho. But sometimes the straddles go to far, for me at least. Maybe not in terms of calculated, intra-Jewish cajoling, but certainly in terms of right and wrong. This is one of those "sometimes."

      There are three types of Zionists, imo. A) Hard core; B) Liberal; and, C) those who would like a Jewish-oriented/attentive state, but recognize that Palestinians are people, with equal rights to Jews in that state. The first two are almost certainly never going to change and therefore don't count. Jeff Halper(?)/ICAHD and some of the folks at 972 may be examples of (C).

      Are you appealing to (A) and (B) to accept Palestinians as equals? Not gonna happen. Or maybe you are appealing to people who advocate for Palestinian rights to accept the fact that (A) and (B) are never going to accept them as equals, but yet should accept, well, (B) as comrades in the cause in which they don't believe and/or don't support on general principles.

      Why is it always this way around? Why isn't the argument for Zionists to accept universal rights, wherever that may lead? You know, do the right thing....and then be accepted into the "movement."

    • It's not a question of excluding anyone, as I read Salaita's piece. It's a question of Zionists needing to choose which side they're on. Bigotry (partial or otherwise) vs. universal rights. If they can't choose the latter they exclude themselves. By choice. Period.

  • Zionism's tailspin: Stark minority of young California Jews are 'comfortable with idea of Jewish state'
    • Annie, first, I think I agree with your take on this poll, but it's not without caveats.

      Without individual tracking polling, no one really knows how these affectations evolve over time. I base this on the fact that very few polling outfits predicted a Trump win - even the vaunted 528 site - except those that tracked individual voter sentiment over time. It would seem that group polls of randomly selected respondents are prone to overgeneralization.

      I'll try to keep this short, but I'll be describing graphs with words and I may not get it right.

      There are [at least] two possible/plausible outcomes of this "young Jewish sentiment":

      A) that they maintain their diminished affection for Israel over their lifetimes; or,

      B) that they grow an affection to Israel over their lifetimes, or;

      C) some combination of the above.

      So A) can be represented by a graph that shows a "waterfall" of parallel lines (young views commensurately diminished in older views) where young Jews maintain their disaffection (or whatever) for Israel over time. Over a period of decades, this would show that sinking connection to Israel at a young age explicitly translated into sinking connection to Israel overall and most importantly, prospectively.

      B) can be represented by a graph where discrete young Jewish feelings today merge into uncritical support of Israel in a few decades. This would be an individual tracking graph that showed their low affectation for Israel now with future sentiment. That graph might merge at a uncritical support for Israel level with the age of the "trackees." Would it be a relatively stationary number (compared to 10 years ago), I don't know. But it might.

      There are probably a dozen anecdotal examples for each case out there in the general population. Robert Parry (grhs) being an example of the (A), and, well heck, probably every reporter at the NYT and WAPO, notionally anti-establishment as youth, but now virulently part of the establishment.

      I'd just like to see some tracking, though I completely understand it's not likely and we all have to draw our conclusions from what's available.

    • Great trend.

      One thing I'm curious about, given these age-dependent differences, is what happens when the young respondents age. There has been this kind of young-old discrepancy for many years, not this large, but the same pattern. Do young Jews increase their support for Israel as they get older?

      I've never seen a poll that tracks individual sentiment on this topic over a period of years. The like-to-like age group sentiment presented here says a lot, but I guess it would also be interesting/compounding/solidifying to get insight into the changing attitudes of individuals over time.

  • Israel’s Justice Minister endorses apartheid -- the Jewish state 'at the expense of equality'
  • Message from Massachusetts: When we fight we win!
    • Love that you all used this as an opportunity to flip the discussion to focus on where/how the ACTUAL discrimination is being perpetrated - with remorseless vigor.

      Does the pro-Israel/anti-rights brigade have any more of their feet left to shoot? Every time they try to ram home one of these blatantly unconstitutional legislative tantrums (i.e. do things like they do them in Israel), they invite and/or insist that the real situation be explained in enough depth to show legislators that the pro-Israel types are completely misrepresenting the reality. That doesn't bode well for them in the next legislative go round.

      Slow process, but as the article says, it IS changing in the right direction.

  • In propaganda coup for Israel, NYT frontpager ascribes Gaza's misery to Palestinian infighting
  • Israeli publisher slams US ambassador for 'perpetuating apartheid' in West Bank
    • You have a brilliant staff, Mooser. I hope you pay them well.

    • What does "vibrant Jewish identity" mean, exactly? I t think it's an important conceptualization.

    • Exactly.

      Maybe this is significant inside the Jewish "community", but from outside it sure seems like one set of bigots (take their land and kick "them" out...) is debating another set of bigots (I sure don't want "them" diluting my country so two-states/the two-state charade is necessary...). This seems like an argument over which form of bigotry should be at the heart of Zionism.

      I find it nauseating.

  • NYT op-ed describing Israel as a place of refuge is missing the word, Palestinians
    • I guess this is a perfect example of what I mean when I say that Jewish-Israelis don't see Palestinians AT ALL. Palestinians simply do not exist in the collective Jewish-Israeli consciousness.

  • How to win the battle for freedom, justice, and equality
    • @Nathan Clearly you're not serious with this comment.

      So much verbiage, so little thought.

      Are there "two sides" really?

  • Federal judge blocks Kansas law punishing BDS supporters
    • Yeah.

      Declare it!!! Shout it out!!!

      Human rights, as exemplified by Palestinian rights, is the consistent/believable dynamic

  • Zionists should be excluded from left-oriented protests
    • Exactly RoHa. You express the practical reality perfectly. In a situation where everyone has veto power over everyone else a new, negotiated, advocacy reality must emerge.

      To date Zioinists have reserved that veto power for themselves. That's changing. Other groups, Palestinians here, are claiming the same veto rights using Zionism's own well-established power-principles.

      You're right. It leads to a "52-card pickup" situation in movement politics, but also must, imo, lead to a more egalitarian outcome - whatever form that outcome may take otherwise.

      Great comment.

    • Hophmi: “Jews, like every other minority, retain the right to define what constitutes hatred against them.”

      As Palestinians, via Salaita, just did in this article. And therefore such claims have be taken equally seriously, consideration of which in movement strategy must have equal weight to Zionist sensitivities. If Palestinians say that Zionism is a bigoted worldview - it IS, by [your own] definition, and cannot be included as part of a larger movement strategy that protests for equal rights.

      That assumes you (or any Zionist) believe your own self-interested assertions. If you do, you MUST agree with Salaita.

    • Great article. Pitch perfect. The credibility of leftie protests is contingent on these principles.

  • New Orleans City Council rescinds human rights resolution, igniting the movement for Palestinian rights
    • Yes. "But"....

      I think that the specific threat has more outrage value than the generic, money threat.

      Was the specific conversation along the lines of, "Your muni bond rates will go to double digits if you do not comply with our demands." or something similar?

      We never see the specific threats.

      Everybody understands that generic money threats are par for the course, but in this case, how those threats were articulated, specifically, to the city council of NOLA, to get them to reverse this in record time, would, imo, illuminate the process of Zionist influence (and make it counterable).

      There is outrage in specific conversations, imo.

    • I wish someone would/could publish what the specific threats were to compel this reversal.

      I don't think this is just a case of one idea being a better idea than a previous idea. Threats were made. It would be interesting to know what they were. HOW does the ADL work this kind of "magic?"

  • Aren't Ahed and Nariman Tamimi women too?
    • Sandra Tamari, one of the kindest and most determined advocates for Palestinian rights, said back in the Occupy* days that she was told that simply holding workshops for Palestinian advocacy under that "umbrella" protest would be "too divisive." Too divisive how exactly? And told by whom?

      Now this.

      Don't these activists know by now that support of Palestinian rights is THE discriminating factor in whether one (and one's "movement") is credible or not? Support for Palestinians shows courage, commitment, and consistency, without which nothing that is said or claimed has any meaning whatsoever.

  • An American girl in Gaza
    • I hope that a kid-to-kid honest exchange on the differences between a free life in the US and life under occupation will follow her peers throughout their lives.

    • Great article.

      An American in Palestine/Gaza.

      Perhaps a follow-up article would be great about her/your recounting of her experience to her US student-contemporaries and their reactions to her/your experiences there.

  • Documentary on Israeli-Palestinian dialogue -- 'Pomegranates' -- leaves the viewer even more despairing
    • And then what? The Jews turn 18, join the army, and oppress, arrest, maim, kill their “friends.”

      Yes. But somehow I get the feeling that these exhortations to "friendship" are only one way.

    • LHunter, yup. And the "If only the Palestinians could be more reasonable..." argument is a clear sign that the person making that argument knows very little about the actual situation in Palestine.

      It suggests fertile ground for discussion and education... and changing of minds, imho.

      I had that very conversation with some "liberal" family members. I used eljay's rape analogy to get their attention. Still not sure if it worked, but it did provide an opening to get in a few sentences on the actual situation. Effect yet TBD.

      The second sentence was, "95% of everything you've heard about this conflict is fiction." Heck, if you're re-educating someone, why not start from scratch.

  • Norman Finkelstein's 'Gaza' is an exhaustive act of witness
    • Yup.

      Finally, a fuller narrative requires the willingness to hold Hamas and other Gazan fighters to account, which this book does not do. Norman Finkelstein asserts that Hamas cannot be expected to avoid jeopardizing civilians by moving its fighters away from civilian objects, since they would be unreasonably exposed elsewhere. Given a right of armed resistance to occupation, he questions how poorer, obstructed belligerents are intended to resist, if not with primitive armaments like Hamas’s (un-aimed) rockets. He gives the suicide bombings of the Second Intifada no real, critical attention at all.

      This lets Hamas and the other Gazan militants off the hook too lightly. Accountability calls everyone to proportionate account. I think that the fighters’ accountability is of specific importance in Gaza.

      What does that even mean? Proportionate account? What is that exactly?

      Largely a favorable review, but at the critical, and I mean CRITICAL inflection point of resistance to oppression, favorability seems to evaporate. Poof.

      There either is or is not a right to resist, by whatever means. Terror begets terror. Who started it? Does it matter? Is finding a solution/accommodation the most important thing?

      Ehud Barak said, AS PM, in June 2008, iirc, that Hamas had reduced rocket fire by 95%, ostensibly as an observation of its unilateral expression of a willingness to go forward constructively. (This was where the 50-year hudna was introduced, iirc, for those keeping score at home.) Israel/the Barak Labor government did the 2008 Gaza slaughter-fest anyway - not two months later. With seemingly ZERO thought to building on positive steps by Hamas and reducing attacks on Israel to zero. I don't get it.

      I can find links, and I will if asked, but I've changed computers a couple of times since so it will take some digging... Munnayer did the cataloging of [diminished] rocket attack trends coincident with Hamas promises to do so, at The Palestine Center. Maybe it's still there. Barak's statement was reported in Ha'aretz, iirc. June 2008.

      Bottom line, to me, is that there is no equivalence to what Palestinians do to resist and what Israel does to promote the "Palestinians as terrorists!" narrative. Israel NEVER seeks to solve it's own self-caused problems. Not ever. And blames others for the failure, with 100% media obsequiousness. This reviewer defers to that obsequiousness, sadly. Even if only in that one little critical passage.

      None of this is new to anyone here, but it was worth summing up.

      As always, FWIW.

  • 'Struggle for one state with equal rights for everyone' is here, 'NYRB' reports
    • Heh.

      To quote the line from the movie "Excalibur":

      "A dream to some...A NIGHTMARE to others!"

      Hope all is well RoHa.

    • Good question Harry. Don't remember it ever being asked directly, and I'm positive that it has NEVER been answered directly.

      "What's your moral objection to one state?", should be the first question asked of Zionists at this point. The answers would be illuminating, imo.

    • Wow. Hope. Legitimate hope at that.

      It's possible that the current conventional wisdom of Jewish-Israelis will be and certainly is to leave if equal rights are gained in a one-state outcome. But the rational follow-on to that loss of Jewish Disneyland (assuming the coexisting sentiments of Israel-is-home and Israel-must-be-where-it-is are real/truly heartfelt by more than religious Jews) is that a state with the shared prospect of no conflict, but yet as a [negotiated??] special place for Jews (no other in the world, needed, and imo a major driver of Jewish waffling on the morality of/support for Israel, right or wrong) can be both achieved and attractive enough to encourage return/support (for one state) in, idk, collegial and/or participatory ways.

      What's the alternative, eternal killing? Historical oblivion? A blood-drenched mess?

  • What's wrong with colonialism?
    • Hi Avigail.

      QUITE psychopathic.

      But I think that Zionism/Israel is perhaps the only example of settler colonialism that maintains, at least, its "benign nature" - replete with staunch advocates.

      See Mooser's link below. ONE mother of a black student in a private Lutheran school got a misguided thought experiment on slavery "de-curricularized." Everybody knew it was misguided/dead wrong. Not so - YET - about Zionist settler colonialism. Is it coming? I think it is - timeframe TBD, but it's coming.

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