The links you supplied simply contained standard Zionist boilerplate of the kind that I'm sure we've all encountered before; I don't see how they address my point, which involves future prospects for U.S. Zionism: AIPAC's action may be a straw in the wind, if only because it could be feeling pressure from younger Jewish Americans, its prospective future support base, and from progressives in this country generally, as shown by the election of two Muslim women to the Congress.
BTW, the Times of Israel subscription was from my cousin, not my brother, whose opinions on this subject are much closer to my own. I can assure you that when I read it, I know where it's coming from.
"You are at best naive or perhaps brainwashed." I ask that you refrain from personal aspersions such as these, as they do nothing to facilitate communication and mutual understanding between us, and as ad hominem attacks do not establish the validity of the arguments one wishes to advance.
eljay: "BTW, you didn’t answer my question: How do you “attempt any productive communication” with any group of people who insist on a right to be supremacists and to do evil unto others?" Most Zionists refuse to acknowledge that they're supremacists; they claim that there needs to be a Jewish state as a haven from anti-Semitic persecution. We need to continually present the evidence that Palestinians have indeed been gravely victimized and that Jews in the Diaspora are safer and better off than in Israel. Incidentally, your question has definite when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife overtones.
"| … I never called you “the bad guy.” … ||
I never said you did." Actually you did say I did: "I think it’s cute how in your Zionist mind I’m the bad guy while the supremacists who choose to be, do and/or defend evil are the good guys."
"Firstly , I wrote , “Most Israeli Jews”.How is that not distinguishing Jews from different countries??.
If you set out here to misrepresent or put words in the mouths of others , nobody here will believe what you post and that includes the folks who read MW articles but don,t necessarily comment."
The way you refer to non-Israeli Jews differs so little from the way you refer to Israeli ones that I can scarcely trace the distinction.
"Skullduggerry eh , is that what you call the colonialist oppression , and Murder on a grand scale not to mention the refusal to allow humanitarian aid to reach millions of starving people , all the while exporting grain and other foodstuffs from Ireland to mainland England .
How,s about if I referred to the Holocaust as “Skullduggery.”.You might want to pick your words more carefully."
I associate the word skullduggery with murder, theft and general wrongdoing, even if the formal dictionary definition depicts something less serious. I wouldn't be offended by a characterization of the Holocaust as skullduggery, and I apologize if it offended you. The phrase "Nazi skullduggery" was fairly common at the time and since, though.
"Perhaps you can enlighten us as to positive English history prior to the 2nd world war." Why stop there? If you find nothing positive about earlier English history, what changed then?
"You seem to suggest that Israel has some positive history that would cleanse their negative history since it,s birth." Every country has some positive history, which of course doesn't "cleanse" its misdeeds, but still has to be acknowledged as part of the overall truth. BTW, the Haganah opposed the terrorism of the Irgun, even if it benefitted from the latter. Most countries existing today came into existence through what would be considered terrorism, aggression or some other sort of violence which they later glorify.
Regarding your research suggestions, I won't keep you in suspense. I'm aware of everything you listed (except the part about skunk juice, which I wouldn't put in the same category as killing and injuring protesters and children, and I know that those events are inadequately reported and addressed in the U.S. and maybe in Europe. That's why I read MW and similar sites and present the information to people like my cousin and others who think like him. There are, however, other aspects to the story, such as the mass dispossession, expulsion and murder of Sephardic Jews from Arab countries during the late 1940s and early to mid 50s, at about the same historical moment as the Naqba, which was not only brutal and criminally unjust but stupid, since it strengthened Israel during its critical formative years by adding about 550,000 people to its population who arrived there in no mood to appreciate the wrongs being done to the Palestinians, have just experience very similar traumas themselves.
I'll try to address all of my responders to date in this post.
JWWalters: If you really mean what you write about making distinctions yourself, great. However, of the other you named, echinococcus and amigo seem to reject it. I did not mean to equate Israeli Jews with most Jews; it's just that when most contributors to MW write about Jews, they don't distinguish among those from various countries.
echinococcus: "They do “mug people” and much worse, “molest children, beat” other peoples’ “spouses, put cigarettes out in” peoples eyes. Certainly."
Is there a confirmed case of Israeli soldiers deliberately blinding Palestinian prisoners, whether by burning or otherwise? Or of their "molesting children?" I was referring in my most to sexual molestation?
"So you’re saying that there’s nothing unjust or immoral with people who are supremacists and who advocate evil against Jews as long as they do not mug people, molest children, beat their spouses or put cigarettes out in their dogs’ eyes."
I am suggesting that it's wrong to reduce an entire movement covering several generations to a one-dimensional demonic caricature. Native Americans were similarly massacred and displaced (and exposed to European diseases, an important difference), but are that and slavery the only important aspects of U.S. history? Amigo, you're Irish. Is Britain's eight centuries of skullduggery in your country all that's important to know about English history?
eljay: "If you don’t have a problem with that, it’s because you’re a Zionist." Not so. If I were, I wouldn't be a regular reader of MW. All of you may be interested in knowing that I'm fresh from a lively donnybrook with my cousin, who is in fact of the Israel-right-or-wrong persuasion. Here is what he wrote me in his last email, in response to one I sent defending Ilhan Omar: "I must say that it was people like you that also gave Adolph a pass. If your remarks weren't so scary I would say they were funny." The exchange that arose from is available on request.
"I think it’s cute how in your Zionist mind I’m the bad guy." I am not a Zionist and I never called you "the bad guy." I've never met you and therefore have no idea what kind of guy you are.
amigo: "During Cast Lead .90 plus %of Israeli Jews supported that wholesale slaughter and many sat on deck chairs sipping wine and applauding every murderous explosion."
Maybe they applauded every murderous explosion for the same reason that millions of Americans applauded the, er, operations of our military in Korea and Vietnam: Because they were misinformed and conditioned to believe that these actions were a legitimate defense against Palestinian rocket fire from Gaza, not understanding the latter's desperation resulting from their government's blockade and past strikes.
"As far as knowing Israeli Jews .suffice it to say , one does not have to dip ones toe in water to know it.s wet."
We know water is wet from our very earliest direct experiences of feeling and tasting it in this world. I repeat: What have you seen or heard directly from Israeli Jews that would lead you to conclude that they are a bloodthirsty lot as a whole?
"If you find MW too painful to suffer (truth) then might I suggest you pop along to the J Post where you will find a more forgiving (of war crimes) clientel."
The same cousin I mentioned earlier sent me a free and unsolicited subscription to the Times of Israel, to which MW is the counterweight, so I don't need the J Post.
Your wish that I "have a nice occupation" is misplaced, since it's not my occupation and not one that I support.
I regret that I couldn't address ever comment, but this is hopefully a start.
Amigo: "given the lust for blood of most Israeli Jews."
Amigo, how can you be confident of such an ugly generalization? How many Jewish Israelis do you know or have you knows? How many surveys of Israeli Jewish attitudes have you seen that would substantiate your accusation? I have no doubt that Jewish Israelis have little liking for Palestinians, since no doubt all that they hear or read about, or view online or on TV concerns Palestinian "terrorist" attacks and statements by the their leaders about how what they're going to do to the Jews. It's most unlikely that first-hand Palestinian accounts of how the occupation is affecting them appear in the Israeli media.
This post raises a larger concern about Mondoweiss that I have developed since I began reading it regularly a few months ago: A large number of those who comment regularly (and I'll name a few: ElJay, Keith, Amigo, Citizen, Annie, JWWalters, Maximus et al) seem to proceed on the premise, usually not explicitly stated, that the Jewish populations of North America, Europe and Israel alike as such are to be regarded as adversarial in the main and that therefore it is useless to attempt any productive communication with the latter (as in ElJays statement elsewhere that Zionists are "immoral and hateful people", seemingly without exception; likewise, ElJay, how many Zionists do you know? "Immoral and hateful." Apart from their positions on I-P, do they mug people, molest children, beat their spouses, put cigarettes out in their dogs' eyes?). It is difficult to wax indignant at the charge of anti-Semitism under such conditions, even if it's based on a misunderstanding. I take a different view: As an article here a few days ago pointed out, the basis of Israel's support is U.S. Jewry, not so much Christian Zionists. It must follow that every Jewish defection from Zionism will have the effect of several non-Jewish ones. That really should be our goal. It also follows that every uptick or incidence of anti-Semitism in the Disapora deals cards to the Zionist camp. Writing about the bloodlust of "most" Jews, in Israel or anywhere else, simply reinforces Zionist polemics.
I request that those who comment on this post do so without in an earnest and straightforward manner, without sarcasm or vitriol.