Keith April 23, 2018, 1:00 am
Get some therapy! If you must be a Judeocentric, EGOCENTRIC justifier of murder, at least be succinct
I'd suggest that you get some therapy, but you've made it clear that you can't imagine any situation when an Israeli citizen (Jewish or otherwise) has any right to defend his or her life when threatened by someone who claims to be acting on behalf of Palestinian Arab rights. Since you are so obviously a sociopath, therapy will be useless to you. Nevertheless, I'll explain again, for the benefit of any unpoisoned minds who may read this.
"Murder" refers to an intentional homicide when there is no clear threat to one's self or others. A killing in self-defense, or in order to protect others' lives, is not definable as murder. It's very obvious to unbiased people that the IDF and Israel Border Poilce personnel stationed at Israel's border with the Hamas-controlled quasi-state entity in Gaza had a reasonable fear for their lives or grievous bodily injury last months when tens of thousands of people attempted to storm the border fence. Most of those killed were members of the Hamas terror gang and this was confirmed by the explicit admission of the official spokesmen of the Hamas terror gang regime, and they were killed when they were attempting to inflict death or bodily harm by blunt force truma (the harmless tones) or 3rd-degree burns (Molotov cocktails). The IDF and Israel Border Police don't have a moral obligations to lay down their arms when rocks are being thrown at them or when firebombs are being aimed at them and to accept blunt force trauma or 3rd-degree burns; but they do have a moral right to protect their own physical safety , and to use lethal force when necessary. Of course their own physical safety is secondary to the physical safety of the Israeli citizens they are sworn to protect. Their first duty is not to allow the border fence that separates Israel from the Hamas-controlled quasi-state entity to be breached. Many of the Gazans who were shot were engaged in attempting to tear down the border fence. Of course, this could have been avoided if they had the sense to stay away from the border. Israel does not have a moral duty to allow who knows how many terror gang members to enter its territory from the quasi state entity in Gaza and cause mayhem such as suicide bombing attacks and kidnapings in Israeli cities.
Read what Chomsky said
Why should I credit Chomsky, a defender of totalitarian regimes? Chomsky is no more a moral authority than Trotsky was.
The white man’s burden was/is to vilify his victims in order to justify his crimes.
It's weird that you assume I am Ashkenazi. I am a Jew and an Israeli citizen and like more than half of my fellow citizens, I am of of Mizrahi/Sefaradi heritage (although my mother is Ashkenazi). But why are you so obsessed with who is Ashkenazi and in what way is it relevant? There really is no difference between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim/Sefaradim in Israel. Our national identity is the same -- Jewish.
The Ashkenazi man’s burden additionally makes the writer ramble endlessly and incoherently
Rambling? You're the one who can't focus and is bringing up a non sequitur and generalizing about a group of people whose ancestors were part of the Jewish Diaspora in Central and Eastern Europe.
in order for the victimizer to claim victimhood
Claim victimhood? Oh, no, no, no, no. You've got it bassackwards. One thing any self-respecting Israeli (whether he is of Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sefaradi, or whatever background in the Diaspora) won't do is ever, ever, ever, willingly assume the mantle of "victim." The whole point in being independent in our land again is that we are NOT VICTIMS. Now that the aims of Zionism are a reality, the era where Jews were victims has permanently ended. We dance on the faces of those who want us to be victims. Victimhood is just not cool.
Keith April 21, 2018, 1:04 am
MIKHAEL- “Jews enjoy safety because we enjoy our independence in our homeland and we are not scattered and defenseless.”
The notion that Israel contributes to Jewish security is Zionist BS. Pray, tell us how? Murdering Palestinians protesting the blockade of Gaza makes Jews more secure?
Hi again, stupid. I'll try yet again to break it down again for you step by step in a way very simple minds like yours might be able to comprehend (unfortunately though, you're also far too hateful to absorb and learn anything even when I am kindly explaining things in a way that other stupid people may be able to understand). Point number 1. The blockade against Gaza makes Israel and its citizens safer. Point number 2. The majority of Israeli citizens are Jews, thus the blockade makes Jews safer. Point number 3. The reason the IDF blockade on Gaza makes Israeli citizens and residents and visitors (Jews and non-Jews) safer is that Gaza is a quasi state entity controlled by a hostile regime that has made outright genocidal threats against Israel and Jews. Point number 4.The threats made against Israel by Hamas and Israeli civilians are not mere empty rhetoric, they have a long history of terror operations against, including suicide bombs in Israel going back decades and rocket and mortar attacks from the Gaza enclave that they control and which they have admitted is not in any way occupied by Israel. Point number 5. The IDF blockade makes it more difficult for Hamas (and other terror gangs operating in Gaza) to obtain rockets and mortars and other types of war materiel to kill Israelis with. It is not 100% effective, as all blockades can be circumvented through various means, but it definitely curtails the amount and the quality of rockets and other type of weaponry Hamas can obtain. This is a good thing. Point number 6 An end to the Israeli blockade would enable Hamas (and other affiliate terror gangs operating in Gaza) to obtain more and higher-quality rockets and missiles and mortars and guns to kill Israelis with. Point number 7 The protests are intended to create pressure on Israel to ease up or end the blockade so that more weapons and rockets and missiles can be brought into Gaza to kill Israelis with. Point number 8 The IDF soldiers and Border Police (including Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel) are tasked with protecting the border and enforcing the blockade. Point number 9 the throngs who have been provoked by Hamas to mass at the border have attempted to cut down the fence, which prevents armed terrorists from Gaza from entering Israel and have thrown firebombs and stones at the IDF/Border Police troops who guard the border and protecting their fellow citizens. Point number 10. Incendiary devices like Molotov cocktails can cause serious injury or death.Point number 11 Throwing an incendiary device like a Molotov cocktail is not a peaceful protest and is intended to cause serious injury or death. Point number 12 An armed soldier guarding a border and enforcing a blockade which is meant to prevent armed terrorists from entering his or her country and preventing a fanatic terror gang regime from obtaining higher-quantity and higher-quality weapons has an absolute moral right to protect himself or herself from someone heaving a rock that can seriously injure and sometimes kill people or a Molotov cocktail that can burn or kill. Point number 13 An armed soldier who sees someone who has hurled or is about to hurl a Molotov cocktail, or a rock, has a right to shoot such a person; there is no obligation to take the risk of possibly burning to death or even having their nose broken by a rock.
According to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have to be slaughtered before they (ineffectually) respond with bottle rockets?
Fajrs, Grads al Quds and even Qassams are not bottle rockets. Bottle rockets don't severely damage buildings and cause roofs to collapse and kill people. You usually have to get in to very close range to potentially hurt someone with a "bottle rocket". (Like the so-called peaceful protesters at the fence aiming "bottle rocket"-type devices directly at the faces of IDF/Border Guard personnel just yards away have recently been doing.) But the aforementioned Qassams, al Quds, Grads, and Fajrs have destroyed buildings and killed and maimed dozens of Israelis. Those are not "bottle rockets". Things like "bottle rockets," however, are currently being used now to try to wound or blind IDF soldiers at the borders while claiming peaceful protest in order to increase pressure on OIsrael to end the blockade on Gaza so Hamas can get more Fajrs and Grads and Khaibars and who knows what else. And of course it's normal for an IDF soldier/Border Police who observes someone aiming a "bottle rocket" directly at him to assume that the person aiming it wants to injure or kill him and has the has a right and duty to use means to protect himself, including lethal force. Any military or police officer has the same right, anywhere in the world. If you go up to your friendly Seattle cop and shoot bottle rockets at him or her from close range you should assume that you will be shot. (Again, for the record, I don't encourage you to try this, the cop may actually be hurt and they might miss you and hurt an innocent bystander and we would not either of those two things to happen.)
The kill ratio says it all, who is the victim and who the victimizer?
Oh, I agree that we Israelis, as a society, are definitely not victims. Victims don't defend themselves. There's nothing noble about being a victim. There are definitely innocent Palestinian Arab civilians who are victimized, because the terror gang regime that controls Gaza insists on siting its rocket launchers, arsenals and terror operatives where they live.
But you don’t care at all about the Palestinians
It is unfortunate that despite best efforts, Israel, when it is forced to confront Hamas and take steps to minimize and eradicate rockets and other weapons, cannot 100% prevent civilian casualties when engaging an enemy in a densely populated civilian area. I have suggested several times now that you encourage Hamas and the other terror gangs to relocate their operatives and their weapons stockpiles to some of the empty areas in Gaza (there are still many such areas despite the propaganda that there is not) and then the IDF can eliminate them without endangering civilian life or limb.
just about the few Jews who died as a result of the ineffectual retaliation.
As I have demonstrated several times already, many of the Israeli citizens (as well as non-citizens temporarily residing in Israel) who have been killed or severely wounded by hostile action from Gaza have been non-Jews. They are my fellow citizens (and in the case of Thai workers and others who have been killed by Hamas rocket and mortar fire, guests of my country) and our army has the same duty to protect them as it does for the Jewish citizens of Israel.
Why don’t you spend some time in Gaza to establish your tikkun olam bonafides?
What does "tiqun olam" have to do with it? That is a Mishnaic (disucssed in the tractate of "Gittin" regarding divorces) and later a Qabalastic concept that has to do with prayer and holy acts and prayer to restore "God's" essence to the world after the shattered shards of divine luminescence were lost in the firmament of creation. I am an atheist-leaning agnostic and I certainly don't believe in such nonsense. It has nothing to do with what later movements in Judaism have distorted it into. However, I always try to do my small part to make the world a better place in the way the the modern Jewish movements have distorted the ancient concept of "tiqqun olam" , although there's only so much one person can do. I do my recycling and am kind to my neighbors and people I meet, evenfor a New Yorker, I donate to charities to the extent I am able (I have three kids to support and NYC is an expensive town), I ride my bicycle and try to reduce my carbon footprint. And I am not filled with bile against people because of their national identity, country of origin, their religion or lack thereof, as you clearly are against one very specific group.
Hateful freaks? ... Am I attempting to justify murder?
Umm...yes. You clearly dismiss Israeli fatalities as a result of Hamas rockets and mortars (not to mention suicide bombings and other outrages committed by Hamas over the years) as "the few Jews who died as a result of the ineffectual retaliation". What can that possibly mean other than that you think Hamas has a natural right to kill a few Jews (never mind that not all of their victims in Israel have been Jews -- also let's not forget they've killed plenty of their rivals in Gaza as well) and themilitary of the Jewish State has no right to take steps to prevent them form killing more Israeli citizens (whether Jews or non-Jews). I asked you before to try a thought experiment and play pretend, under what circumstances would you concede that Israel ever has a right to use force against Hamas?
I have nothing but contempt for you.
Well, that is exactly the kind of comment a Jew-hating freak would make.
guyn April 20, 2018, 11:51 pm
“When forced into confrontation with Hamas and other terror gangs, the IDF…”
More often than not, Israel initiates the confrontations.
Propagandists like Abunimah push the narrative that Israel violated ceasefires with Hamas, and dupes like you lick it up, but Hamas never agreed to any ceasefire with Israel for Israel to violate. What Hamas has agreed to at times and which they, as radical Islamist fundamentalist zealots, deem "halal" when it comes to dealings with Jewish infidels is merely a tahadiya (تهدئة), which is not a cease fire or a long-term truce. The word translates to a "calming down". So many of the alleged Israeli violations occurred after incidents in which gangs like Islamic Jihad or Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which are affiliated fanatic Jew-hating terror gangs operating out of Hamas-controlled Gaza, launched rockets at Israel. Hamas (and Western propagandists like the American, Abunimah) will then accuse Israel of a "cease fire violation" because, after all, it wasn't technically Hamas that initiated attacks (just an affiliated gang that operates with Hamas's permission out of the territory that Hamas controls) when Israel takes steps aimed at reducing the ability of these terror gangs to launch additional rockets and uncritical, unthinking people like you lap it up. Also, many of the so-called Israeli "violations" during tahidiya periods were actions against Hamas gang members outside Gaza. Hamas claims that they undertook an obligation not to launch rockets from Gaza at Israeli cities (although Islamic Jihad and al Aqsa Martyr Brigades regard themselves as exempt and Hamas does little to rein them in), but they still reserve the right to continue their "armed resistance" elsewhere. So when Israel has actionable intelligence about a Hamas (or an affiliated terror gang) cell from the "West Bank" (to use a name applied by the Hashemites for that region) planning an attack and takes steps to neutralize such threats, propagandists for Hamas cite this as an Israeli "cease fire violation". One other neat little self-serving thing about a tahadiya under Hamas's interpretation of Islamic law (ignored by dupes like you) is that the Muslim party to a tahadiya "cease fire" has the exclusive unilateral right to announce the end of the tahadiya (when it's convenient for them) without it being considered a "violation," but if the non-Muslim party does so, it's "no fairsies" and a violation of the tahadiya.
“how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets?”
Same thing for Hamas: how many deaths, how many shooting of Palestinians are they required to suffer before it is allowed to respond?
The sole purpose of Hamas (and affiliate terror gangs) firing rockets and mortars at Israeli population centers from Gaza is to murder and maim Israel civilians and cause mayhem to the Israeli economy, and because these rockets only relatively infrequently actually manage to kill or severely wound Israeli civilians (dozens have been killed, scores have been severely wounded, including people needing amputations and being blinded, thousands have been less severely wounded (burns, lesions) and hundreds of thousands have been traumatized (since scores of Israeli civilians have actually been killed and maimed and burned and blinded by the Hamas rockets and mortars),not to mention the billions of dollars of damage inflicted on the Israeli economy through property damage and the cost of developing, maintaining and using our largely effective Iron Dome Defense system), it would seem as if the relatively low number of Israelis killed is not enough to satisfy your and the average Mondoweiss fellow traveler's blood lust, however, we Israelis don't dismiss or disregard our casualties, and we are NOT SORRY that we haven't accommodated the desires of Hamas/Islamic Jihad/al Aqsa Martyr Brigades and the likes of guyn for more dead Israelis. We take comfort that our blockade on Gaza has been somewhat effective (not completely) in preventing Hamas from obtaining war materiel in higher quantities and of higher quality (Hamas has succeeded in acquiring better and more sophisticated rockets like Fajrs and Grads and they probably have Khaibars, as opposed to the primitive Qassam types, which have longer range and do more damage and they have put them to use) that will make it easier for them to endanger the lives of our citizens. IYou prefer otherwise. You prefer that we lift the blockade completely in order for Hamas to obtain more and better rockets so that they can more easily kill Israelis. While it's patently obvious that you think more dead people in Israel (especially if they are Jews, although as I've shown repeatedly, these indiscriminate attacks have also claimed the lives of my Arab fellow citizens of Israel as well as non-Jewish residents or guest workers in Israel) is a desirable outcome, try a little empathy and try to understand why an Israeli citizen with close family members who live very close to Gaza might not agree with that proposition.
Unlike Hamas rockets launched toward Israel, which have a sole aim to kill or maim, or at the very least cause panic in our society and damage to our economy, the purpose of Israeli attacks on Gaza is to target Hamas rocket-launching sites and command centers and to prevent that regime (and its affiliate proxies) from launching rockets at Israeli population centers. A good way for Hamas to guarantee the safety of the civilians it claims to "protect" would be to disarm and forswear any and all military confrontation with Israel; then there would be no need for Israel to take steps at eliminating (or at the very least reducing) Hamas's rocket stockpile and the terror gang members and commanders who use this arsenal against Israel. If they won't repudiate violence and insist on confrontation, a good way to protect innocent civilian lives in Gaza would be for Hamas to move all of its launchers and the terror gang personnel who operate the rocket launchers, as well as the higher-level commanders who tell them when to launch the rockets, as well as the political operatives in Hamas who decide policy, to uninhabited areas (despite the fact that Gaza is densely populated, there are still open areas), far enough away from innocent civilians so as not to cause risk to life or limb, that way the IDF can efficiently eradicate these rockets and assist these Hamas members to attain their fervent wish to become martyrs. That way no civilians will be harmed. Or Hamas can announce that they are looking forward to peaceful and neighborly relations, an end to military confrontation and a renunciation of calls for the slaughter of Jews as contrary to the principles of Islam and and a recognition of a Jewish state in the ancestral homeland of the Jews, EreṢ Yisrae'el and then the two parties can proceed to iron out the details of borders and trade relations and all that good stuff. It's sad though that brainwashed freaks like you, living in Canada facilitate Palestinian Arab intransigence and encourage them to continue with a war against Israel that they'll never win. I'm an optimist though, so I believe that in 50, 100, 150 years or so there's a chance they'll moderate their position.
guyn April 20, 2018, 5:55 pm
“You are a moral simpleton and your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”
Not for the rest of humanity, but for the Palestinians from whom you stole the territory.
Thank you for openly admitting your hatred and bigotry and saying that Jews and Jews alone are required to forfeit their safety and security in order to demonstrate a concern for Palestinian Arabs, including those in Gaza who live in a self-governing quasi-state entity that is not ruled by Israel and which you yet seem to think was "stolen" by Israel. You just said it yourself. We Israeli Jews don't have a right to safety and security.
By the way, you have said you are an Israeli but you bear an uncanny resemblance with a guy from Montréal with the same first name, a converted Jews who worked at McGill University. Purely coincidental, indeed.
By the way, you should know that "Guy" (גיא) is also a common Hebrew given name in Israel. It means "valley" Are you by any chance related to my pal Guy Nissim? His initials were also "guyn" when I think of it. What a great guy is GUY. But in this case, it's purely coincidental. Anywa, you're only off by a few hundred miles. My Sephardic/Mizrahi Israeli father (17 generations of his family were born in EreṢ Yisra'el, in Ṣfat (Safed) and in Jerusalem) was offered a post-doc fellowship at McGill but ultimately accepted one at MIT (so I like to joke that I'm almost Canadian), and my (Hungarian-Ashkenazi immigrant background) Israeli mother did her Master's at Northeastern University. That's how I came to be born in Boston (and I was raised mostly in NYC and Israel, with a short sojourn in Nebraska) . I've visited Montreal twice (I liked it!), once as a kid and once in my early 20s. I even spent one night in a dorm room on the McGill campus, I think, because it was summer break it was temporarily converted into budget hostel lodging. But that was back in 1992 and I haven't been back since. I live in NYC (I earn more money in NYC than I can earn in Israel and I have an American daughter from one marriage that I help support as well as Israeli daughters living in Israel from another marriage that I help support). The income I would earn in Israel wouldn't enable me to support my daughterr in the USA. Additionally, my octogenarian mother doesn't want to move back to Israel after spending decades in the US, and as my many of my siblings are in back in Israel, she also relies on me to be a part-time caregiver.
Keith April 20, 2018, 5:18 pm
MIKHAEL- “… your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”
Have you gone mad? Safety and security? Currently, Jews are perhaps the safest minority on the face of the planet. It is only Zionist ideological propaganda which claims otherwise.
Jews enjoy safety because we enjoy our independence in our homeland and we are not scattered and defenseless. You have a problem with this. You prefer Jews who are unable to defend themselves. To people like you, that is the natural and correct state of affairs.
. Over the last ten years, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have been killed by Israel? How many Israelis have been killed by Gazan bottle rockets?
So far, none have been killed directly by "Gazan bottle rockets," but dozens of Israeli citizens (including my fellow Israeli citizens who belong to the Arab minority in Israel) have been killed by rockets of the Qassam, Fajr and Grad varieties, as well as mortars fired by the terror gang maniacs from Gaza aimed at Israeli population centers. (One is too many.) When forced into confrontation with Hamas and other terror gangs, the IDF has reduced the number of rockets in Hamas's (and associated terror gangs') arsenals, while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum. There is no such thing, however, as urban warfare in a densely populated civilian area (the terrain Israel is forced to operate in against Hamas) in which there will not be civilian casualties. It would be a good thing if, next time, Hamas and the other terror gangs would remove themselves from civilian neighborhoods so that IDF can eradicate them more efficiently without risking innocent civilian lives. Do you think you can convince them to take that step?.
What is the kill ratio?
Just out of curiosity, according to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets? Do you think that Israel would have a right to take steps against Hamas (and other terror gangs) , if, theoretically, it would be possible to guarantee that not one single Palestinian Arab would be harmed? Because basically what I am seeing you and other morally deformed specimens say here is that hamas (and other terror gangs) have a right to shoot rockets into Iserael as much as they want in the name of "protest" and "self-defense" and because they only once in a while manage to kill or maim an Israeli citizen, and because we know that if Israel takes military steps to reduce or eradicate rocket-launching sites by bombing those sites in Gaza there is a high probability that some civilians who are in proximity will eventually be harmed or killed, Israel has to just shrug and tolerate rockets launched at it from Gaza and console itself that only once in a while will Hamas actually manage to kill someone. Additionally, you are saying that Israel must end the blockade on Gaza, and let the Hamas regime in power there import whatever war materiel it wants unhindered, because that means they can upgrade their ability to kill Israelis (which is what has happened during the truces, actually, they upgraded from relatively crude Qassams to Grads and Fajrs, all of which they put to use to kill Israelis).
Yet you talk of safety and security for Jews (but not for the Palestinians).
No. I'm talking of safety and security for the citizens and legal residents of Israel (whether they are Jews or Arabs or others). It's a given that Jews collectively will not be in danger as long as Israel exists, however. The best way to guarantee the safety and security of innocent Palestinian Arabs in Gaza is for the government in charge of that quasi-state entity to not fire rockets into the territory of a neighboring state and not join the radicalized elements of the population to mass themselves at the border with a neighboring state and try to cut the border fence while chanting "Death to the Jews" and acting a threatening manner towards IDF and Israeli Border Police personnel. You mentioned "bottle rockets" before, and this is where Hamas has actually used "bottle rockets." Shooting bottle rockets from several yards away directly at the face of armed police or military personnel is likely to get someone killed anywhere in the world. I would suggest to you,if you don't believe me, that you attempt such an experiment by aiming and shooting a "bottle rocket" at your friendly neighborhood cop and see what happens. But I wouldn't want him or her to get hurt (bottle rockets fired at close range can cause serious injury and burns) and when he/she shoots at you there is a danger that an innocent bystander might also be shot. (I'm not that concerned about what happens to you.) So, for the record, I actually don't encourage you to try this.
Have you ever read Nazi propaganda? Even during the height of the Holocaust, the Nazis claimed that Germans were facing an existential threat from international Jewry.
Another fail and so damn unoriginal. Of course, Israel doesn't make a claim that Palestinian Arab terror is threat to the existence of our state. The hostile Hamas terror-gang regime that governs the quasi-state entity in Gaza does however represent a threat to the lives and physical well-being of Israeli citizens (including non-Jewish citizens of Israel). Hamas rockets don't discriminate -- when a Grad rocket scores a direct hit on a house and collapses a roof on someone or when the shrapnel flies everywhere, these "bottle rockets" don't know if it's a Jew or an Arab victim. Also, remind me about the years of terror attacks Germany had to endure from Jews, remind me about the Jewish enclave next to Germany that launches thousands of rockets at German cities.
It was BS of course, but your claims of a threat to Jews are eerily similar.
And of course it should go without saying, were it not for the fact that I'm engaging with a deranged and stupid person, that unlike Nazi Germany, which sought to biologically exterminate every single last Jew everywhere on the planet on the grounds of their racial theories (including people who were descended from Jewish grandparents who had been baptized into the Jesus-cult and didn't even know they were Jews) Israel has never sought to exterminate the various Arabic-speaking non-Jews who have assumed a "Palestinian" national identity in recent decades and has repeatedly sought territorial compromise with them, so that they may enjoy a form of statehood and self-governance in one part of EreṢ Yisra'el (which foreigners named "Palestine," a name which was never traditionally used by Arabs for the entire country until recent times).
The notion that militarily powerful Israel is facing a threat to its safety and security from demonstrators protesting the immoral blockade of Gaza
Let's pretend that you are capable of thinking and let's try to do a thought experiment. Let's imagine that the IDF brass on orders from the defense minister and chief of staff and the PM simply ordered all of its soldiers to stand down and not to engage with any of the tens of thousands of people who had been instigated to amass themselves at the border. with wire cutters and incendiary devices. Just step back and lower all weapons. When they cut through the fence and start showering IDF troops with stones and Molotov cocktails, since we are pretending to live in a strange moral universe where your warped Mondo morality applies, the only options the IDF should have is to run away crying or let themselves be burned to death or stoned to death. Because, ya know, it's just mean if an IDF soldier with a sniper rifle wounds or kills an "unarmed protester" who is trying to kill him or his friends. And so, let's imagine that the fence gets knocked down, the IDF soldiers piss their pants and run when they see the crowd. Then what? Freedom for Gaza and the residents of the Strip will shower all the citizens of Israel with love and friendship? Everybody will live happily ever after, right? I know you're not very bright, but you're not that stupid as to actually believe that, are you? Convince me that will be the result and I will try to convince all the people I know in the IDF to stand down or not serve.
therefore, had to murder many and seriously injure hundreds more (planned in advance) is morally reprehensible and harkens back to a dark time
Yes, Hamas planned this in advance and was warned that Israel will protect its border and that IDF soldiers will value their own lives before the lives of anyone who is threatening threatening their lives or safety. That is right, moral and just and it is the operating principle of any country and any military or police personnel anywhere in the world, not just Israel. It is morally reprehensible that you think an IDF soldier or MAGAVnik (border police) -- whether a Jewish soldier/border police or an Arab Muslim or a Muslim Circassian soldier or a Christian soldier or a Druze soldier in the IDF/MAGAV has no right to protect himself or herself or his or her friends when a lunatic hurls a Molotov cocktail at them by using lethal means (if necessary) to protect himself or herself against someone who is attempting to use potentially lethal means against him or her. Heaved rocks and incendiary devices are not means of peaceful protest.
is a fitting description based upon your total support, not just for Israel per se, but for the horrible acts of the Jewish state
I totally support Israel's right to exist and I am totally confident that it will exist as a Jewish nation-state until such time as all nation-states cease to exist. Hateful freaks like you have a problem with Jews living in their own independent polity in their own historical national homeland; but that's your problem. Unfortunately, hateful freaks like you help encourage intransigence among the Palestinian Arabs and prevent a possible compromise that could enable them to obtain a sovereign state of their own (the first Palestinian Arab state -- ever!) in some parts of the former British Mandate of Palestine between the Jordan iver and the Mediterranean Sea in which they constitute the majority.
Keith April 18, 2018, 8:22 pm
MIKHAEL- ” It would have been a pleasure to have the privilege to serve at the same time my daughters are in uniform.”
Your uncritical loyalty to your one and only fatherland is duly noted.
Another attribution without evidence. Like all Israeli citizens, including my non-Jewish fellow citizens, I enjoy and freely exercise the right of freedom of speech to criticize my government on matters of policy and conscience on many issues.
Israel uber alles
You'd never catch me saying that Israel is above all else and you have no evidence of me expressing such sentiments. Like your earlier empty allegation that I don't care about human beings who are not Jewish, this assertion is devoid of evidence. You are a moral simpleton and your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity. But it never works that way, not even for Jews. I am of course, proud of Israel's humanitarian efforts throughout the globe:
I have encouraged my daughters to volunteer for search-and-rescue training when they get drafted into the IDF next year; in addition to the fact that Israel is in an earthquake zone and is due for a major temblor, IDF teams have recently contributed to earthquake relief in Mexico, as they have in Nepal and Haiti and Turkey and Armenia in the past.
Most of the beneficiaries have been non-Jews.
Keith April 19, 2018, 3:17 pm
MIKHAEL- “There is nothing illegal or inhumane about the blockade Israel has imposed on Gaza….”
Of course there is. The ongoing occupation of Gaza ...
Whatever Israeli "occupation" of Gaza existed ended completely in 2005, and the very word "occupation" connotes that it had been a sovereign state prior to Israeli control in 1967 (it wasn't, but was under Egyptian occupation preceding 1967).
the total control of Gaza’s borders
It's right, natural and normal for a state to blockade enemy territory under the control of a hostile, armed regime during a state of war and it's right, natural and normal for a state at war to deny residents of the enemy territory access to its borders and to prevent (to the extent possible) war materiel from reaching the enemy territory. But that's not occupation. Gaza is a territory under the control of the Hamas regime (do you deny that? -- because Hamas doesn't deny that) and the Hamas terror gang regime is at war with Israel (do you deny that? -- Hamas doesn't deny that). And as Hamas spokespeople have confirmed, Israel does not occupy Gaza.
The Israeli "occupation" that Hamas seeks to end is the occupation of so-called "Palestine" which they define as every centimeter of territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. They know that Israel doesn't occupy Gaza though, which they regard as liberated.
When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,” Zahhar said
The European Parliament has made a motion for a resolution calling for the end of this inhumane blockade. I quote and link parts of the resolution
Quoting a resolution from the European Parliament is a failure to provide evidence that the blockade of enemy territory is illegal. What makes you think the European Parliament has any moral or legal jurisdiction in this matter?
Mooser April 17, 2018, 11:47 am
Why, “Keith”, how can you say that? “Mikhael” is a moral paragon.
“At 45, and having been married three times (I wound up marrying every woman I was intimate with), and taking care of an octogenarian mother and paying money to my teen twins in Israel and my American college-age daughter, doesn’t leave me time for any “companions”.”
No matter how many times Moser brings up the subject, he's still never adequately been able to explain why he thinks my admission of having been married and divorced and paying child support is somehow an admission of a moral failing. Most people I know think working hard and taking financial responsibility for children is the right thing to do. I wonder why that seems so bizarre to Moser. At any rate, I'm proud to say that my eldest from my first marriage (who is not Jewish per the Orthodox-Jewish definition, as my first wife isn't Jewish) has finished college in three years and returned from her first trip to Israel, where she met her sisters and many cousins. She loved the country and the people and is contemplating living there after grad school. And next year my twin girls will be soldiers. In theory I could still do IDF miluim(reserves), except the IDF has cut back the upper age limit for reservists to 41 (I'm 48) --it used to be until 54. It would have been a pleasure to have the privilege to serve at the same time my daughters are in uniform. If I hadn't spent so many years away from Israel or had at least returned annually to do my reserve duty, they'd let me volunteer for reserves past age 48, but I haven't done miluim in about almost 20 years.