Phil and I have an article in The Nation this week. Here’s a taste:
This year has seen a dramatic shift in American Jews’ attitudes toward Israel. In January many liberal Jews were shocked by the Gaza war, in which Israel used overwhelming force against a mostly defenseless civilian population unable to flee. Then came the rise to power of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, whose explicitly anti-Arab platform was at odds with an American Jewish electorate that had just voted 4 to 1 for a minority president. Throw in angry Israelis writing about the "rot in the Diaspora," and it’s little wonder young American Jews feel increasingly indifferent about a country that has been at the center of Jewish identity for four decades.
These stirrings on the American Jewish street will come to a head in late October in Washington with the first national conference of J Street, the reformation Israel lobby. J Street has been around less than two years, but it is summoning liberal–and some not so liberal–Jews from all over the country to "rock the status quo," code for AIPAC (the American Israel Public Affairs Committee).
Sure sounds like a velvet revolution in the Jewish community, huh? Not so fast.
Tell us what you think in the comments.
Guys, congratulations — phenomenal watershed event. Will provide comments asap, but beautiful cover . . . enticing slugline.
It’s beautiful. And that sound you hear approaching is the thunder of the hasbara herd, coming to do battle for AIPAC.
“This year has seen a dramatic shift in American Jews’ attitudes toward Israel.”
It may be too much to hope for, but I think you are right. Gaza was a turning point.
Also, the quality of those still vociferously vomiting hasbara indicates to where the brains of the Jewish community (such as it is…) is going.
Congratulations on the article. I was lucky enough to have a bum voyage the first time I tried ziocaine, but for many other people seeing the futility of Zionism was not as easy.
I was scheduled to spend a summer on a kibbutz, and my parents promised me I would lose my virginity to an iron-thighed sabra and shoot a machine gun! Then they told me what time they got you up over there. That was the end of Zionism for me.
According to haartz, the settlements issue has been, um, settled.
link to haaretz.com
Doug, I read this morning (at TPM) that Obama has pretty much given up on controlling settlement activity. Sometimes I wonder, tho. I mean, thanks to the settlements, Jewish violent crime, at least, is artificially lowered, along with the number of Jews locked up for felonies.
That’s something I will never forgive the Israeli government for. Using those poor deluded schmucks as human shields and bargaining chips. To become in the end, a tragic object lesson in “Arab anti-Semitism”? What kind of people do that?
Oh well, I guess the rebuilding of Zion is bigger than any one individual Jew.
AIPAC’s orchestrated use of those poor deluded American taxpayer schmucks as milk cows and its use of their poor deluded children as cannonfodder, both in the service of a foreign country and at the expense of American core values and the USA’s reputation in the world is not forgiveable either. What kind of American citizen does that? Well, here’s a clue:
link to thenation.com
Oh well, I guess the rebuilding of Zion is bigger than any one US congressional candidate or incumbent and any POTUS in office or any wannabe; the press
performs its public service giving Americans “all the news fit for yuz,” smoothly
oiled with hasbara special formula ingredients.
G00d luck to JStreet guys and galls and all that, but nah the conference won’t make the slightest bit of difference.
If Aipac can kick Obama in the sack-o-seeds and tazer his hands of the West Bank illegal settlements issue, they sure as hell can drown out any and ALL voices of opposition from within it’s own community.
The only weapon against Aipac is to threaten the politicians who are on their payroll with your individual or group vote.
Wield your votes like truth-swords people, against all corrupt local politicians and their posies and cabals on Capitol Hill.
And continue to fight speak out against media censorship, as Alison Weir does so eloquently:
Michigan Radio Censorship Controversy Continues
A Michigan affiliate of National Public Radio (NPR) that refused to run an announcement by a group that provides information on Israel-Palestine, If Americans Knew, has now sent out emails purporting to explain the rationale for its decision.
If Americans Knew Executive Director, Alison Weir, says that the station’s emails, sent in response to complaints from the public about the station’s censorship, contain false information.
Michigan Radio’s Claims
The emails — from the director of development for Michigan Radio, which is based at the University of Michigan — state:
This issue has been miscast by Ms. Weir, when in fact the issue is about adherence to FCC underwriting regulations.
Michigan Radio was initially contacted by a gentleman in the Flint area who indicated that he was interested in establishing an underwriting schedule of announcements that would include information about Ms. Weir’s talk.
The gentleman initially asked that the sponsorship be attributed to an organization to which he appeared to have no apparent affiliation. Michigan Radio is required by FCC rules to identify the sponsoring entity in an underwriting announcement and not a third party.
For that and other reasons, we were concerned that accepting the sponsorship may put us afoul of FCC regulations.
He subsequently indicated that the Flint Islamic Center, the organization that would be hosting her talk, and of which he is a member, should be identified as the sponsoring organization. Those announcements identifying that organization and Ms. Weir’s talk have aired as ordered.
If Americans Knew Response
Weir says that there are several problems with the station’s claim.
“First,” she says, “the reality is that the group who contacted Michigan Radio did indeed consist of the Flint, Michigan chapter of If Americans Knew and possess a letter from me stating that.
“Second,” she says, “this is not the explanation that was given to the chapter at the time, nor is it the explanation that has been given to If Americans Knew since. Below is the email correspondence on this matter:
From the If Americans Knew chapter, Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:17 PM:
Thank you for the call earlier today. I communicated the Michigan Radio decision back to our group. We are disappointed that the station declined to approve our announcement.
In order to be completely clear, please send me an e-mail stating the specific reason or reasons for the non-approval of the underwriting. As you stated, if our request did not meet an FCC guideline or rule, or the station rules or policy, please indicate which specific guideline or policy we did not meet.
From the station’s underwriting representative, Thursday, October 01, 2009 9:06 PM:
I’ll be glad to share with you what management discussed with me. In the underwriting packet (the first email attachment that I sent to you), on the page titled “MAKING YOUR CREDIT WORK FOR YOU MICHIGAN RADIO UNDERWRITING COPY GUIDELINES” (bottom paragraph):
“Michigan Radio reserves the right to refuse any request for underwriting that would violate an FCC rule or policy, violate station policies or adversely affect the reputation or financial condition of the station. No announcements will be aired on behalf of political organizations, political candidates or their committees, or that express a view on issues of public importance or interest or religious belief. No more than one (1) event may be listed in any underwriting announcement. No more than 6 underwriting announcements may air in one day (and may be less depending on inventory).”
“In other words,” Weir points out, “The alleged problem was with our organization itself.”
Weir says that this explanation was also given to her directly on October 16th, when a person at the radio station told her that the reason station management had refused to run the ad was their determination that If Americans Knew was “political.”
Weir says that she was on a speaking tour in Alaska at the time the ad was refused and occasionally unavailable, so the local group, worried that they would be unable to promote Weir’s speaking events in Michigan, decided that they would ask the Flint Islamic Center to sponsor an ad. As a result, the station ran an ad about the talks that gave the Islamic Center’s name and website, rather than If Americans Knew.
Weir says, “I am extremely disturbed about this matter on several levels.
“First, I am outraged that the station refused to run an announcement by our organization, when it appears that they have run announcements by pro-Israel organizations that are political and that even publicly lobby for specific legislation. I find such a double standard unconscionable.
“Second, I am disturbed that the station is sending highly inaccurate emails about this situation to the public.
“Third, I find it unfortunate that the station sent emails about this issue to others and yet not to If Americans Knew, despite the fact that I had left numerous voicemails asking to speak to them about this issue. No one from management ever took my calls or called me back. The Development Director’s unfactual information could have been corrected if he had first checked it with me before sending it to the public.
Weir says she is extremely grateful that the Flint Islamic Center was willing to place the ads and says she is honored to be associated with the center. However, she says that the center’s generous assistance does not excuse Michigan Radio’s censorship of If Americans Knew.
“I am told that Michigan Radio has aired announcements by the Ann Arbor chapter of Hadassah, The Women’s Zionist Organization of American, an organization that advocates publicly and actively on legislation, and the Jewish Federation of Detroit, whose website says that it “advocates for Israel.” Yet they refused an announcement by If Americans Knew, even though we are not a lobbying organization and our website’s mission is to provide facts to the American public.
“By refusing our announcement, Michigan Radio prevented listeners from learning that our organization exists or of being directed to our website. Many people who do not have time to go to an event do have time to visit a website.
“I expect that many people, hearing our announcement, would have visited out website, where they would have learned about us and the extremely important facts on Israel-Palestine that the mainstream media are not giving them. Michigan Radio’s censorship prevented this from occurring.”
link to israel-palestinenews.org
“And continue to fight speak out against media censorship, as Alison Weir does so eloquently”
Thanks for bringing up Alison Weir, and bringing her work to our attention! What with one thing and another, I have neglected recommending her excellent website.
Thanks again for bringing her up. I do believe she is a perfect example of the people who fight for the truth in the I-P situation. Very admirable, she is!
Alison Weir is a prime target of the Hate Crimes Bill passed so recently to the Senate, then for Obama’s signature–which he’d sign in a minute–except for the fact its wedged
in with the Military-Complex Biz of, e.g., all those expensive F-35 jet engines that are part of the total pentagon’s proposed bill package.
Re J-Street’s: “Getting Israel another thirty F-16s won’t help us combat the legitimacy issue [with] people who are trying to undermine the right of Israel to have a state.” Luria says. “Jews need a state.”
Wouldn’t it be a refreshing change to hear from any top leader of the USA on
this subject, that is, what is actually in the best interests of the USA as a whole,
with some mention of what the USA claims are it’s core values it’s willing to
fund around the world, especially in the Middle East? Well, we did hear from
former President Carter, who’s been sidelined and demoniszed for his efforts.
As some have argued on Mondoweiss, we need to heasr from the fully consistent
Jewish Americans AND ditto the non-Jewish Americans, who just happen to comprise 98% of ALL USA citizens.
Mooser, thanks for the kudos to Weir. She needs it, from both Jews and non-Jews alike.
J Street is controlled opposition. Still the same ethnocentric Jews trying to play God w/ the Palestinians.
The fact that no dissenting voice is represented in this debate within the mainstream is typical, but on top of the fact that this conflict is under a magnifying glass? No that’s exceptional!
I predict more of the same tragedy. There is no Jewish Left. Even Chomsky and Finkelstein straw man the power of the Jewish community in the US. Kind of like Mooser (and his LAME jokes).
While I support fully the Mondoweiss enterprise, Cliff, I do empathize with your thoughts. I mean, considering former peace-making POTUS Carter, who bribed via American tax dollars Israel, Jordan, and Egypt with an enormous part of total USA foreign aid to make Israel secure (and ignored Israel’s nukes), yet
has been kicked to the curb by his own Democratic party, even as he slaved in
his habitat for humanity enterprises over the his post-POTUS years, it’s really an insult to the 98% of Americans comprising the USA. You are correct; there is no
mainsteam –grass roots American voice in this debate. It’s like an internal feud
within a sorority house, the meat of so many grade B or C movies. Both the left
(PBS, CNBS, MSNBC, network news, And the other side of cable news, Fox, do not address the issue; all are in accord to remain silent. Chomsky, Finkelstein, Mooser–they are like Witty–they ignored the big suffocating blanket over us all,and pretend we are free to have our opinions heard. Mondoweiss is not the NY Times, nor even a faint similie of the power of the free press our nation’s founders envisioned. Remember what Washington said about not getting enmeshed in foreign entanglements?
My jokes are very funny, my mail and e-mails and phone calls run about 75% positive. And my most frequent request is: “more jokes”
I’m sorry if you don’t like them.
Settled, you notice, between Netanyahu and Mitchell, with no input from any other party to the negotiations. Settled down the river for the Palestinians.
Yubba, Dubba! Fabulous. No time to read right now, but will later. Guess the book is next, if a smart editor understands just how much of a global market there would be for something like this from two smart US Jews.
Whoa, a book! A history of anti-Zionism and Jewish a-Zionism, so it isn’t all in little bits here and there, but all in one place, culminating with an overview of the situation as it is developing today. Holy Makeral, wouldn’t the Zionists have fits?
a-Zionist? I’m glad you asked! It’s a Jew who may not have a conviction that Israel must be dismantled, that Israel is a danger to the Jews (a Jewish viewpoint with a long pedigree, going back to the Old Testament, in my opinion,) but, on the other hand, is convinced that Israel and Zionism are not central to, or even necessary for, Jewish survival and Jewish florishing. Okay, maybe it’s what Phil, I believe, has called “post-Zionist”. It might be contingent on a belief that Israel can make changes and compromises and live as a nation among its neighbors.
And they could, if they wanted too, bad enough.
Mooser, read this, and I mean it, or I’ll never talk to you again. :-)
[It's long. Bring food and drink, but you wont be bored.]
link to z.pe
Thanks MRW! I’ve bookmarked it, and I’ll have it read before the day’s out!
“the historical fact — largely untold — is that, for most of its history, Zionism has been a decidedly minority movement among Jews throughout the world.”
Please don’t tell America Fust-Cless and Citizen Arcane about that article, it’ll break their all-American hearts.
Why Goosey, I mean Mooser, I read it and did not make a crack in my heart, not even the slighest crack. It told me that the ethnocratic state of Israel should go the way of the dinosaurs.
slim comfort to Americans that the US is the host nation for a civil war between zionists and antizionist Jews.
It’s happened before: Jews work out their internecine conflicts but the surrounding culture suffers– ‘collateral damage’? Elitist Jews in Germany, and zionists, behaved arrogantly in pre-WWI Germany, battling among themselves and enraging Germans who were exercising their own newly-discovered nationalist muscle; Jews derided German pride and ambition: Amos Elon writes in The Pity of it All that Jews in Germany felt it their right to instruct backward Germans in the correct way to organize their culture. Zionism in Germany was at least partly a Jew-on-Jew battle; Germans suffered for it.
Americans are suffering today as zionists/neocons roil the Middle East, with US weapons, treasure, and blood. It’s small comfort to the parents of dead sons and daughters the “not all Jews are zionists.” Where were you antizionists when Doug Feith was simultaneously making oil deals for Israel and making up s$it to provoke America to war in Iraq so that the oil deals could happen?
The claim that “we are antizionists” amounts to putting the blood of the sacrificed lamb on the door so that the angel of death will pass over.
You’re right PG. We AZJs should just shut up, or limit our “internecine conflicts” to the synagogue. Sorry for the inconvenience. Won’t happen again.
would that azj s would work out their internecine conflicts in the synagogue, Schmuel.
I attended a Brit Tzedek seminar last Spring. The message was, AIPAC = the bad guys, we = the good guys. AIPAC is making Jews look bad.
The solution: join with Brit Tzedek to lobby Congress. Learn from us how to lobby effectively; travel in OUR bus to Washington to lobby Congress.
As if the US Congress is the playground for Jews to work out their spats.
How ’bout if AZJ s confront their co-religionists/ co-peopleists and straighten them out without dragging the rest of the world into their bloody fight.
Are you serious, PG? If the non-Jewish British, Americans, Germans, UN, etc. had kept their noses out of it, we would have crushed Zionism like a bug, without having to trouble you with our petty squabbles. Now, by no fault of the AZJs (we used to be the vast majority, by the way), we find ourselves with a problem that affects the whole bloody world. If you want to work together, to fight a common enemy, that’s great. If you would rather criticise and lay blame (rather unjustly, I might add), step aside, because you’re playing right into Zionist hands.
I just went and read the article, so I guess I can’t comment any more. I wouldn’t want to break a long-standing habit.
Good article. Maps out the ground “treacherous ground” pretty well.
I think you’ve got good times coming, Phil. Like I always say, the Zionists got so much because, for various reasons, there was no-one, and in particular, no Jews, to tell them “No”.
My feeling is that you will be surprised how fast they will crumble once two things happen, and they are happening: first, to show the facts about the issue, and Zionists cannot fight the web or many other late technological developments which make hasbara more and more problematic, and second, the first Jewish voices saying “No” and breaking the myth of Jewish unanimity on Zionism. And the Jewish voices saying that Israel will still be possible under other, more sustainable conditions.
By “crumble” I don’t mean that all the Israelis will abandon Tel Aviv and the settlements and come to America (May the Evil Eye not hear that!) but rather, that compromises and solutions which were decried as impossible for so many years by the Zionists will become possible doable and necessary. Of course, in the end, the Zionists will say it was all their idea to implement them, but what can you do? As long as it gets done.
MRW:
Thanks for the ACJ article: very interesting…
Mooser, I think most of us here, Jewish or non-Jewish, would conform, at least broadly, with what you define above as the “a-Zionist”.
I remember a couple of weeks ago you posted a quite pessimistic comment lamenting Israel’s dismal prospects for the future. I was moved to reply with a lengthy, optimistic outline of a better outcome, though I myself was doubtful of it.
Now you seem to be much more optimistic about Israel’s prospects to become a normal country living in peace with its neighbors, while I am still skeptical. Has your opinion about this really changed, or is it just the fluctuation in viewpoint that most of us experience in agonizing over such an exasperating conflict?
“Now you seem to be much more optimistic about Israel’s prospects to become a normal country living in peace with its neighbors,”
Damned if I know! Frankly, I take a pretty dim view of the chances that Israel will make the changes necessary to become an acceptable neighbor. But if I can make the conclusion that the Palestinians will accept Israel if Israel makes themselves acceptable, I gotta accept the possibility that Israel can make the changes. One requires the other. And by taking one view I can’t accomplish anything, and by taking the other, I might accomplish something.
And yeah, “the fluctuation in viewpoint that most of us experience in agonizing over such an exasperating conflict?” is a real good way of putting it. Also, the old generation of American Zionists I know pretty good, most of the ones I knew are aporximately like Witty, but not nearly as articulate or sophisticated a Hasbarist as him. I do not know the new generation of Israelis, nor have I had any contact, until just recently, with the younger generation of Jews who may find themselves called to anti-Zionism, or just helping solve the problem in spite of Israel. I was anti-Zionist, by an almost immediate reaction. Or rather, I knew that whatever Israel was or wasn’t, that working out of my Jewish identity was not for me. I just figured that Israel was probably gonna come to a bad end and it wouldn’t need any help from me.
But at the same time, there’s no joy in running around joyfully predicting how bad the crack-up is going to be. After all, the Israelis can change their situation any time they want to. Longest journey, single step, candle, preferable cursing darkness, all that.
And yeah, exasperated fluctuations, all the time.
Nice to know you, Gooosey–er I mean tea-bagging Mooser, see the writing on the wall; too bad all the victims will have paid the price, in the USA by dead, maimed soldiers, and their impacted families and taxpayer penalities and emotional angst, all for Israel uber alles. You, Mooser, are the last one any American GI would want as a foxhole buddy; I speak as both as teen age GI and a lawyer; I will say, I rather have you as my foxhole buddy than Richard Witty–the 98% of Americans can suck on that. Of course, they are too busy watching sports channels or Oprah.
” You, Mooser, are the last one any American GI would want as a foxhole buddy;”
Thank You! I consider that a compliment.
The Zionists got so much because there was no one to tell them No. Exactly. Considering the factual collective power of the goy, why is this so in your opinion, Mooser? We all await your explanation.
The “goy” as you so crudely put it (I have expunged the word for my vocabulary, as should you, it’s denigrating) was an active partner in Zionism, as they had been before in so many other colonial projects, some on religious bases, some economic.
It was the English (the “goy”) who were in control of the Palestine area. Remember the Balfour letter? “Her Majesty’s government looks with favour…”
The early Zionists, Weizman and the rest, did not go to the indigenous governments to get permission to start and increase Jewish colonies, they went to England.
When I said there was no one to tell them no, I meant that the great portion, or even the majority of the Jews who, as much as research can quantify this, either did not believe in Zionism or, more frequently, did not see Zionism to relevant to their problems as Jews, had no voice with which to challenge the Zionists. And I really doubt they could have conceived of Israel becoming quite the problem it is. Another words, why would they protest? This may shock you, but not all Jews immediately and intimately concern them selves with everything any other Jews do. They may not have seen any harm in it.
The “goy” most certainly could have crushed the Zionist movement if they had wanted to. And yes, after a while the Zionists became powerful enough to challenge the British in Palestine.
Congrats with the article. Should put MW definitely on the map!
Congratulations again on the article (I sent you an e-mail earlier I believe).
I think an article in Haaretz of an interview with King Abdullah of Jordan is important.
link to haaretz.com
Jordan king: I expected more from U.S. in pushing Mideast peace
What’s needed from the US, Richard, is not more, but less. Less money, mostly.
Hey Richard, you just keep pushing that idea that Israel is the US’s responsibility, yes sir, you just keep shoving that right down the Gentile’s throats, I’m sure they will love the taste of it. Especially when it’s flavored with the actual facts, with footage to go with, about what Israel does.
I can just hear them now, Richard: “Our little Gentile children may go without health insurance, but it’ll be worth it if we can help keep those Jewish Chastity Patrols operating”
You have heard how helpful Israel Lobby lobbyists are being with Health Care reform, haven’t you Richard?
How’s about this Richard? You want support from Us Jews and Gentiles? Give us something we can support! Something we don’t have to be ashamed of! Something which we can be sure won’t end up on trial for war crimes (or for that matter, just ordinary peculations).
Well, actually what’s needed is more USA humanitarian aid for the Palestinian children and mothers (fuck the males, as they do in the USA). It seems Gooseey is on board with that. I don’t think Witty, in his (hired) goy-protected suburban “castle” in the USA , should find ethical fault with Goose er, I mean, yes, that jewish tea-bagger.
I gotta say, Mooser is right on point here.
King Abdullah, like his father and his grand father and his great grand father is a measly puppet and a self-absorbed monarch. He is no great politician, nor a good leader.
When Netanyaho was refusing to even sit with the Palestinians, Abudllah acquiesced to US calls to “normalize” relations with Israel. As if, Jordan hadn’t normalized relations with Israel within the last decade.
But the minute the US said, “jump”, Abdullah said, “Just point me toward the cliff!”
He then proceeded to cancel entry visa requirements for Israeli tourists as a good-faith gesture, while Israel was thumbing its nose at him and the Palestinians. Even ministers in the dysfunctional Jordanian government were outraged.
It kind of reminds me of the spineless Democratic hacks like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. One day they capitulate to Bush, claiming they don’t have enough votes, then when they do (after 2006) they turn around and sell their electorate a bunch of lies and propaganda hoping to save face and deceive the reader.
Well, this reader isn’t buying his bull anymore. His “letters” or articles or whatever one chooses to call them, are nothing more than propaganda and a feeble attempt to save face in Jordan and among neighboring Arab states.
If he were reading this post, I’d tell him to go patronize someone else.
I don’t know. I’m not inclined to condemn King Abdullah as much as you do for his choices, Nolan, but I won’t argue that your perspective isn’t valid. Jordan has always been in an awkward position — seriously, Israel wouldn’t hesitate to slaughter people in Jordan if it became politically advantageous and therefore the Jordanians are put in an awkward position.
Like I said, I don’t want to make excuses for King Abdullah, but from what I’ve heard there have been some (perhaps modest) civil rights improvements in Jordan under his reign. Standing up to Israel is essentially the same as standing up the United States. And the US has already invaded two countries in the Middle East, ostensibly (we know now) on a whim.
I don’t like the choice that the current Jordanian regime has made, but I have a hard time condemning their choices, given the risks we impose with our militarized foreign policy. Saddam Hussein literally went from US-backed stooge to sacrificial lamb veritably overnight. The ease at which the US imperial machine puts its own allies on the chopping block is going to give anyone who’s cooperated with us great pause. And Jordan’s on that same list.
Thanks, MRW, for the url source: (link to z.pe
I don’t know what Goosey is babbling about, but it struck me that the narrative of Jesus illustrates an internal dissent (not Witty’s version) among the Jews regarding
how best to be faithful to their understanding of God’s mandate even within the reality of internal friction
and that of outside powerful forces. And so too, the historical conflict between
institutionalized Christianity starting with St Paul (Saul) who spread what he felt was the dead Jesus’s messages to the Gentiles, his own form of traditional Noah
law? And then down to the 20th Century (ignoring Luther v the Pope, but not really in questioning the root of Western religion), where the NAZIs strove to have their cake and eat it too regarding Christianity, same as the Zionists regarding
Judiasm. I will follow up this comment with a few more urls about Nazi use of Christianity–readers can decide for themselves what parallels, if any, there are with Zionism:
link to atheism.about.com
That’s about the cherry on the cake of religion abuse and use. The shared blood and soil philosophy is obvious. What seems odd, despite the parallels of German and Jewish ethnic nationalism and the similar use and abuse of religion, is that
when Nazi Germany arose it actually had a physical homeland, while Zion/Israel
did not, and, although Pre=Weimar Germany was not really the villain Versailles
claimed, neither were the Jews really the villains claimed by Hitler.
I keep getting notices this comment is “too spammy” for this blog. Why?
Here’s the promised few more urls:
link to papillonsartpalace.com
link to nobeliefs.com
“but it struck me that the narrative of Jesus illustrates an internal dissent “
The narrative of Jesus? Vast you there, Charlie? Oh, I see you are talking about the Bible! So, as an agnostic (as of yesterday, anyway) you are prepared to say that the Gospels represent the literal truth of the events surronding Jesus’ life?
(If He indeed lived at all)
And if you want to argue that the Zionists were worse than the Nazis, that’s your privilege, pal, have at it.
And, oh, Citizen, just to be fair, I showed your comments to my wife. She chuckled (she has a low, very seductive laugh) and smiled, and said, “Yup, that’s why I waited for Jew to come along”!
And she says my wit, humor, and general good-time antics make up for the mohel’s botched, drunken work!
Goosey , I talked about “the narrative of jesus.” Of course I wasn’t there at time. Could I have phrased that POV more objectively? If so, how so ? That’s related to the obvious point I initially made that escaped you? How do collapse my words
into “the Zionist were worse than than the Nazis?”
Just to be equally fair, Goosey, er I mean Mooser, I showed your comments to my wife. She chuckled effortlessly, and smiled , and said to me, “Yeah, I always wanted
my goy prince to come along, and she said my wit. humor, and general good-times antics make up for her own lame jewish legacy, not to mention an uncut goy cock
was indeed a treasure.
“make up for her own lame jewish legacy,”
What can I say, masochism is not unknown among Jews, not by any means.
Multiple URLs
which is a comment too short for this blog
Congrats Mondoweiss, nice cover….
Citizen, that is exactly the type of comments that will help to legitimize this blog.
Witty can’t can’t make a statement on this blog with out it turning into some Jewish supremacy type shit or the Holocaust and its comparison to I/P. Such a broken record its just amazing. Will your uncircumcised member and disrespecthing your wife become talking point # 4? (1. Holocaust/IP comparison, 2. Jewish supremacy BS 3, the Goldstone report) jeez I hope not.
Okay, got that squared away! Checked Citizen’s links, and it adds up to:
World Net Daily!
Nuff said!
How so? I was talking abou the use of religion by both the NAZI and ASHKENAZI
states, one gone-thank God, gone, and the other, hopefully, on it’s way out.
Nothing like advocating genocide, you are a gem Citizen.
I don’t think Citizen is advocating for either Israel or Nazi Germany, but merely pointing out how both states rely on mythologized dogma to justify their ethnic cleansing policies.
I’ve noticed in the past that Zionists have reading comprehension issues, so I guess we can give you a pass on this one, yonira.
Chaos:
one gone-thank God, gone, and the other, hopefully, on it’s way out
Nazis can’t stop being Nazis(i think) but Ashkenazi can not stop being Ashkenazi. So when he said hopefully (the Ashkenazi) are on their way out…
Since I am comprehending this wrong, can you help?
The Ashkenazi aren’t a race, per se. Read Shlomo Sand’s book.
Also? I wasn’t aware that Nazi Germany was toppled by waging a genocide against the German people en masse. Maybe you can elaborate on that? Because I’m fairly confident what we did, ultimately, was topple the Nazi power structure and then reform German governance into something that didn’t require concentration camps, race hatred and lebensraum to sustain itself. Sooner or later, it’ll be Israel’s turn for the same — just as it was South Africa’s turn not so long ago.
Not all Germans were Nazis, and not all Ashkenazi were/are Zionists, especially of the variety now leading Israel. Let me be perfectly clear, I do not wish for the eradication of any birth group on earth. I said I was glad the NAZI state was gone, and I hoped
the ASHKENAZI state would be gone too. I meant in both cases I don’t like regimes
that promote genocide in any way, fast or slow, etc. Nazi is not short hand for all Germans. Ashkenazi is not shorthand for all Jews. I do not advocate eradication of all ashkenazi jews. The influence of ashkenazi jews on Zionism and so in turn on the thrust of the Israeli state is one of judicial notice.
Hey moron (yonira), did the Nazis get exterminated? No. They were defeated. I think that’s what Citizen wants w/ Zionism. To see it defeated like Nazism.
I do too. That doesn’t mean we want to see ‘the Joos’ thrown into the sea.
“ASHKENAZI state”
You could put it like that, I’d sure like to see an Israeli’s face if you kept on referring to it as the Ashkenazi State. Probably reduce them to incoherence!
Yonira, not exterminated, just “wiped from the pages of history”.
Actually, yonira I was advocating against genocide, whether under a Nazi or Ashkenazi regime. You have trouble reading English. Chaos4700 does not.
Also, yonira, you need to interpret comments in the context of the comment thread.
Doesn’t reading comprehension in your native language require so?
So all Ashkenazi Jews are now Zionists?
For the, ahem, literacy impaired, apparently:
link to mondoweiss.net
Gee, wow! Citizen answered your question like a whole hour and a half before you asked it! He must be a psychic!
Bravo. I hope you got paid handsomely, and that this is the start of many paid gigs. I love the intimacy of your writing style, and I hope that you will publish more essays that tell stories of personal transformations.
I remember that Woody Allen and others broke from Israel in 1982. What is happening now is, of course, much more significant.
I second jawad’s compliments.
Jawad, do you have any more info on this: “I remember that Woody Allen and others broke from Israel in 1982″? I’d be interested because that’s just around the time many American Jews were solidifying their support for Israel. (Ariel Sharon had just launched the first invasion of Lebanon, Sabra and Shatila had outraged the world, and Bob Dylan wrote his hymn to Zionism, “Neighborhood Bully”.)
Right after the first Lebanon invasion (and Sabra and Shatila), Bob Dylan wrote his hymn to Ariel Sharon
Interesting article, comprehensive and well-written. Just a couple of comments:
“The larger issue for many of us, as the MondoWeiss site has suggested, is the strategic and economic disaster of Iraq caused by American Jewish power.”
Gosh, you got a quote which might substantiate that? I’m sure Phil’s readers would love to see it.
You’re not going to try the “Big Oil” gambit, are you? That’s already been well discussed here.
But if you do take seriously Phil’s concept of a “war of ideas in the Middle East,” then you can probably find some interesting quotes from the people in this list:
Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, David Wurmser, Doug Hannah, William Luti, Elliot Abrams, Robert Zoelleck, Dov Zakheim, Eliot Cohen, Robert Kagan, Joshua Muravchik, Robert Satlof, Michael Ledeen, Max Boot, Meyrav Wurmser, William Kristol, Daniel Pipes, Marty Peretz, Charles Krauthammer, David Brooks, Thomas Friedman, Kenneth Pollack, Jeffrey Goldberg, John Podhoretz, Judy Miller.
Or, just to cut short the notion that the USA did what it did, attacking Iraq a second time to assure Oil, let’s start with PNAC, Frum’s carnival targets. Yes; it’s true, Israel would have preferred Iran as target first but what the hey Israel went along, assuming Iran would be the next target. The problem that developed was due to USA/Israel
ignornce of actual humans, in this case Arabs. Is there a flag here waving about USA average Americans?
Or, just to cut short the notion that the USA did what it did, attacking Iraq a second time to assure Oil, let’s start with PNAC, Frum’s carnival targets. Yes; it’s true, Israel would have preferred Iran as target first but what the hey Israel went along, assuming Iran would be the next target. The problem that developed was due to USA/Israel
ignornce of actual humans, in this case Arabs. Is there a flag here waving about USA average Americans?
I do. I do. I do! Pick me! C’mon, Mooser. Pick me, pick me, pick me.
Here ya’ go, Moose:
link to z.pe
or link to z.pe
(same author, different venue)
Moose/Mooser contd:
Here’s the ensuing brou-hah-hah to the links I gave above, and we know how much you like those brous. Gives some more background, especially when Mearsheimer & Walt get into it in the London Review of Books: link to z.pe
The actual London Review of Books colloquy: link to z.pe
Really good question, why don’t the American Gentiles have a say in this? Please don’t tell me that government Goys have a say, whether appointed or elected.
Americans who speak up get censored, banned, un-elected, targeted, lose their jobs, become marginalized, lose their social standing. The label, AntiSemite is more powerful than anything Hester Pryne embroidered.
There are a few Americans who speak in harmony with American values about US relations with Iran; betcha 100 shekels you’ve never heard John Tirman on C-Span or NPR, much less CNN or Fox.
“The label, AntiSemite is more powerful than anything Hester Pryne embroidered”
Maybe for a while, maybe, but it is obviously losing it’s effect, we can see it right here. Many many things that I know are basically anti-Semitic are becoming mainstream parts of the arguments against Israel and/or its actions. Or at least attempting to, we will see what happens.
Don’t get me wrong,
1.because some of the arguments are anti-semitic doesn’t make any of the realities of the situation any different.
2. There is no reason why the argument leading to a change in US policy and attitude toward Israel should be any different than the argument over any other American foreign policy. Crappy but true.
3. If people are already inclined to be racist or anti-semitic, and their political ideology does not exclude colonialism, or orientalism, arguments against Israel which are basically anti-Semetic canards may be the most effective ones. There’s nothing I can do about that.
Of course, I try to warn people when their arguments are based on bigotry or canards so they won’t make fools of themselves, but that’s not really my problem.
Maybe those demagogic arguments are effective, but those who know, will know, and certain people will just not be invited to smoke the really good hash, nor will they have a chance with the really exotic, Eurasian model chicks.
I’ll wave to you Citizen, as we go by in her Porsche.
Look at it this way: If people can convince Gentiles that the faults of those Jews who live in Israel is an expression of some intrinsic Jewish characteristics, then being anti-Semitic won’t be so bad will it? Or they will just say, “I’m not anti-Semitic, these are just the FACTS about Jews, and they ain’t good”
I mean, I have just watched the process which took place that resulted in bogotry being fashionable again, and this process was so insidious and played to so many needs that people (no names here) have convinced themselves that embracing bigotry is really liberation! And that those who believe in equality are “the real haters”
There is no reason at all why the same process could not be applied to Jews.
And since we’ve already seen how anti-Semitism is a tool for Zionists, they are not going to balk at the process. Whatever alienates Jews from their fellow citizens, Zionists are pretty much down with.
Breaking! Meanwhile, Obama DOJ seeks redemption?:
Maryland Man Arrested on Attempted Espionage Charge
link to bloomberg.com
This caught my eye:
Maybe I’m being too sensitive here, but are there many other examples where the government feels compelled to JUSTIFY its arrests? I mean, who are they trying to convince?
This isn’t exactly encouraging. So we arrest a man who spills to an FBI agent posing as an Israeli spy, but we never catch or charge the actual Israeli spies?
Phil. You did it. You changed the discourse, singlefreakinhandedly, over these last three years. You’ve done a serious piece in a mainstream publication, and there’s no mincing of words or wringing of hands or cries for ‘balance’ or special pleading about the infinite complexity of the situation.
I say, congratulations. This is a real milestone, and one you can be proud of. You and Adam are going to be in the history books someday, and I predict sooner rather than later.
I salute you both.
PS – I forgot to add – it’s a damn good piece. Spot-on, as far as I can judge from reading the blog regularly.
I hope you guys are at long last getting a bit of remuneration for all your efforts!
The article starts compellingly as an inspirational call to arms, but then bogs down in the unfortunate (inevitable?) supremacist hand-wringing. Yes, the title announces the topic clearly enough, but is the debate over Israel’s future a ‘Jewish’ issue? And what is the fascination with JStreet? This from Isaac Luria, JStreet’s campaigns director:
Getting Israel another thirty F-16s won’t help us combat the legitimacy issue [with] people who are trying to undermine the right of Israel to have a state. . . . Jews need a state. And that legitimacy window–the cracks in that window are getting wider. They’re dangerous. Dangerous.
Translation: We already have unparalleled military strength, but we are losing the public relations battle. No, Isaac, this won’t do at all. The ‘legitimacy issue’, as this f@ckwad put it, is the result of Israeli treatment of Palestinians, not some phantasmic enemy conjured up by your biblically induced paranoia. If JStreet is ultimately painting lipstick on the pig of a state where the Arabs will not have full rights of citizenship, count me out.
I’m in a real mood tonight, and this sentence appeals to it: The ‘legitimacy issue’, as this f@ckwad put it, is the result of Israeli treatment of Palestinians, not some phantasmic enemy conjured up by your biblically induced paranoia.
Uh oh…
Since you guys have been onto the dual loyalty thing for a while, you’ll want to see the latest retreat of Jonathan Pollard:
link to cnn.com
Here we go again!
read “retread”
There were apparently no actual Israeli agents involved in this one, so the guy will hang alone.
“There were apparently no actual Israeli agents involved in this one, so the guy will hang alone.”
And we know this, how?
Perhaps you are right, that this guy was just a free-range hustler, but it remains to be seen whether or not he had previously made contact with Israeli intelligence.
piney – we know this from the news reports. Of course news reports might be mistaken, but that is how they are calling it at the moment.
Potsherd? Lawrence Franklin was involved with actual Israeli agents and he was still hanged alone, proverbially speaking.
Who knows whether there was an actual intelligence office involved.
First, here’s a critical sentence in the original AP/NYT report this afternoon.
How did the FBI know about this guy?
Second, read this sentence from the link Gellian gave. Read it a couple of times.
He does R&D for DARPA, the Naval Research Lab, and NASA while working as a tech consultant for an Israeli aerospace company? How can a wholly-owned Israeli aerospace company operate with access to these contracts in the USA? Sounds like the aerospace company is under surveillance and this guy got stung by the FBI kicking it up a notch.
More facts may emerge – or not emerge – but what this is looking like to me at the moment is entrapment by the FBI. There seems to be a lot of that going on at the moment.
@Chaos4700 October 20, 2009 at 12:09 am
Potsherd? Lawrence Franklin was involved with actual Israeli agents and he was still hanged alone, proverbially speaking.
Franklin actually got off in the end. He never served a day in prison for betraying our country.
“Larry Franklin was sentenced to probation and 10 months of “community confinement,” or a halfway house, along with 100 hours of community service.”
Pentagon analyst who leaked info has sentence reduced, JTA, 12June2009
Interesting that a former world peaced prize POTUS and the credential likes of W & M, and those singular
stray congresssmen from the past who fought AIPAC, all gentiles, could not make an impact in the interest of the whole nation. I am really depressed. I love Phil and Mondoweiss, but–how can any non-Jewish American feel good about this state of affairs?
If you want to feel even worse, check out the Helena Cobban article on AIPAC.
Citizen, I would consider this like a house building project if I were you. Everyone has their part, it is a confluence of activity and each has contributed. If you read the article carefully you will find that people from all quarters, Jew and non-Jewish alike were cited (not exhaustively but enough to show a round picture of effort). As the artificial facade of accused antisemitism begins to slip in the criticism and outrage of what has been done by Israelis, when BDS begins to gain more momentum, there will be more room given for efforts equally. In the long run all the efforts will bring accrued benefits to all parties.
In short form it will take a nation of people to halt a national tragedy, and than see that justice and peace kiss each other.
Definitely an excellent article guys, well balanced with a lot of event backup and quotes of other authority. Nice flow and good reading. As others have said I hope this helps to place you more on the map as a force to be reckoned with, because of those hopes and aspirations you represent. We need powerful lights shined on this on this current tragedy, and I consider you among the best.
“In short form it will take a nation of people to halt a national tragedy, and than see that justice and peace kiss each other”
As long as the process includes enough blame for our essential and intrinsic Jewish qualities, as long as those qualities can be shown as the real villian in the piece, Citizen and America Fust-Cless will be satisfied.
Of course, Citizen has a personal; interest in this, women are not easy to control, and every belittlement helps.
Congratulations on the publication and thank you for founding this very website.
Congradulations to both of you. I will let you and other mondoweiss readers bask in this new development, and unlike Witty I won’t attempt to dim the spotlight by putting a link to another article.
Most of us want you two to go far!
GJ guys! Glad to support a site like this
Loved the article. Wasn’t strident, as I would have been. Didn’t haul in great gobs of quoted ‘proof’, as I would have done. A nice masterful article that you could get your Bubbe to read without her calling out to disown the self-hating authors. (I hope that prick Jared Kushner sees it.) This now positions you (with the cover credits and lead story) as the go-to guys on this beat for the future. So…you going to do a NYT Op-Ed about the J Street Conference as soon it’s over?
Yup, MRW, I don’t know where he finds the patience and moderation of expression. I react so badly to Zionists that I seek out and use the phrases and formulation calculated to offend them most. And that’s easy, and being able to push just that bit at a time is something I could never do.
Another thing: this is the best cover that The Nation has had in a long long time.
As I go to bed, I caught this NYT Op-Ed by Robert Bernstein, past chairman of the Human Rights Watch. You have to shoot over there and read it. This is the opening paragraph:
This man should be boo’ed off the world stage. I hope MJ Rosenberg makes mincemeat out of him.
A Giyus target acquisition site (link to israeligirl.typepad.com
is already pointing there. Giyus main site petered out a few years ago but they’re still a big hasbara organizer.
Great article. Thanks. I understand the frustration (indignation, outrage) that Citizen and others have expressed here, at the presentation of I/P issues in the US as a kind of internal Jewish family matter. There are a number of reasons for this. The lack of free information and discourse on I/P is the most obvious, but I believe there are also some less sinister man-bites-dog kind of reasons. As a Jew and an Israeli, I often encounter shock and surprise from non-Jews, who wrongly assume that all Jews support “their” state. Naturally, pro-Zionist Jewish organisations and lobbies do their darndest to reinforce this misconception. “Jews Rethink Israel” is thus far more “newsworthy” than “Gentiles Rethink Israel” or even “Americans Rethink Israel”. Its the apparent paradox that gives such a story its zing, and zing is the lifeblood of journalism.
Great comment.
=====================
Thanks, MRW. (Extra words to satisfy filter.)
Apparent paradox?
Good morning Citizen. Apparent paradox: Jews criticising/opposing Israel and “representative” Jewish organisations.
You know, like black Nazis, feminist Muslims, gay conservatives, etc. The media lap it up, because everyone knows that all blacks are liberals, all Muslim women are submissive, all conservatives are straight. Oh, and all Jews support Israel.
Gotcha, thanks, Shmuel, and good morning to you.
‘Throw in angry Israelis writing about the “rot in the Diaspora,” and it’s little wonder young American Jews feel increasingly indifferent about a country that has been at the center of Jewish identity for four decades.”
When will we address the separate identity of American Jews, and what it means for such a group to have power in the U.S.? I tend to doubt that American Jews aren’t solidly behind Israel, and it hardly washes the blood from their collective hands if they turn tail when the publicity war is starting to go against them. Being against Israel is hardly the same as having the same identity and interests as the rest of America.
“I tend to doubt that American Jews aren’t solidly behind Israel,”
You are right, Phil is lying, and all the rest of us, too. And we are lying even if we don’t know it! !!! We are only saying there is a split to distract you from how united we are for Israel, which we are, because we are Jews!
Yeah, I can see how neatly that all works out.
“Being against Israel is hardly the same as having the same identity and interests as the rest of America”
You mean we are not Christian? You got us there, pal.
So exactly what the hell do you mean by that? And exactly what should “the rest of America” do about it? And Gee, you wouldn’t mind telling us what you mean by “the rest of America”, would you. Or is it just a typical demagogic formulation?
Like I said, Phil, David, Adam and the rest, if that is the level you want the debate to be held at, you are in luck, cause there’s plenty of it. And it may work, for all I know. It’ll be interesting to see what happens when this site starts attracting a liberal Jewish audience, I wonder if they will sit still to be told there is a “rest of America” which doesn’t include them.
I do doubt that most American Jews don’t support Israel in one way or another. Supporting a two state solution is still supporting Israel, whether it is supporting every policy thought up by those in charge in Israel or not.
Is the claim now that most American Jews oppose Israel? This must be one silent and cheap majority!
Mooser, it’s no secret that most Americans are still of the Western, Gentile and Christian persuasion, and that has been the case since the founding. Talk about denying a group’s existence!
Jews are 2% of the population. Does that really surprise you? Since few poeple, Phil included, deny that Jewish power supports Israel at great expense to the rest of the nation, do I really need to spell out to you the implications of such a tiny group exercising hostile and ethnocentric power over the other 98%?
“do I really need to spell out to you the implications of such a tiny group exercising hostile and ethnocentric power over the other 98%?”
You are gonna find a scapegoat for your support of Bush if it kills you, huh?
Pingback: Under strong attack, J Street accomodates their critics but do they alienate their supporters?
However powerful people imagine AIPAC to be, it pales alongside the older and vastly more powerful established and enduring Israel lobby. That is of course our print and broadcast media, with its portrayal of the non-stop conflict between Israel and the Palestinians as a war between terrorists and their Jewish victims. However many Jews in our media who oppose the occupation and ethnic cleansing, they are too few or too unwilling to challenge the media gatekeepers especially those who feel it is their duty to promote the government of Israel no matter which coalition is running that country. That same media, not AIPAC, is what keeps our Congress in line when it comes to paying for the occupation and the white phosphorous it requires. Being part of the media, whether it is the Nation magazine, KPFA’s Dennis Bernstein and Nora Barrows-Friedman, or Noam Chomsky, doesn’t mean you get past the gatekeepers who remain unchallenged. To challenge the power of the Israel Lobby, it is first necessary to recognize the role of its gatekeepers in our media.
BTW I hope Phil can report back on the spike in traffic. Might I also suggest a special welcome post?
Check it out yourself on Alexa.com
“You are gonna find a scapegoat for your support of Bush if it kills you, huh?”
Support of Bush? What punishment could possibly make amends for the actions, arrogance and stupidity of George Bush? I never voted for him, and I never supported him. Maybe DavidF is right?
Oh, sorry Todd, I wasn’t thinking of you specifically.
Of course you weren’t. You were attacking the stereotypical American while addressing Todd. You’d have a lot more success making your point about stereotyping Jews if you wouldn’t engage in stereotyping so much yourself with respect to gentiles and also to those who disagree with your left-leaning politics. (And, yes, I would probably agree with most of your political points on the issues. But indulging yourself in attitudes that stereotype others really doesn’t serve you well here at all. )
And if you’d stop trying to mind-read through stereotypes, you’d probably be a lot less worried about anti-semitism, because you wouldn’t be imagining it where it doesn’t exist, and amplifying it where it does. After all, if stereotyping is something that you yourself sometimes fall victim to, is it really so horrible that others do too? Perhaps if you had the same awareness of your own foibles, you’d know how to address and correct others more effectively. Or not. (Speaking as someone with a wide and varied set of foibles myself.)
“Mooser, it’s no secret that most Americans are still of the Western, Gentile and Christian persuasion, and that has been the case since the founding. Talk about denying a group’s existence!”
This is like arguing with a schizophrenic! Exactly, exactly, as you pointed out, about 98% to 2%. So why are we Jews pushing all you big brave Gentiles around, making you ionvade Iraq, blah,blah grip on the media, alien culture.
You are the one denying the existence of the 98% of the population, either that or wow, are you guys dumb to get pushed around by a tiny coterie of Jews. Okay, now you start telling me about all those neo-conservative Jews. And I ask you, what on earth made you listen to them? They were wrong for years previousl, they were wrong again, but all of a sudden Doug Feith and the rest were Gods, and nothing they said could be contradicted, and off to Iraq we went.
So a tiny, tiny sliver of 2% of the population (and an alien 2% at that! What’s the appeal?) is able to control the entire country.
Poor Gentiles, no minds or ethics of their own, doomed to slavishly follow the most obviously self interested and easily dispovable lies of Zionists. After all, they’re only 98% of the population.
For God’s sake, nobody is making you listen to those Jews, but this time around, it wasn’t Gulf War 1, you didn’t “kick their ass and take their gas” and get out, you got yourself stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it’s all the Jew’s fault.
Yeah, cry me a fuckin river.
None of which is to say that anti-Semetic arguments might not be the most effective in bringing about a change in the US attitude and policy towards Israel. They very well might be. Considering how the discussions around other foreign policy issues have been conducted, it might be the way to go.
I would hate to think so, but maybe that’s what will work. Go for it, Todd, Citizen, Fust-Cless, go for it. After all, you know much better than me what kind of response your arguments and constructions about “alien cultures” and the ability of “institutionalised Hasbara to remove limbs. Perhaps Americans will respond better to arguments for putting the Jews down than raising the Palestinians up. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit, really. And with tremendous numbers of Americans having no contact (or only the most peripheral) with Jews of any type, maybe an appeal to free ourselves of this “alien culture” could provide not only a way of changing the relationship with Israel, but transferring blame for a host of economic and social ills to the Jews. So go for it, kids, put on a Passion Play in the barn, and best of luck to you.