100 Most Recent Comments


Ossinev
December 6, 2016, 4:58 am

@echinococcus
“Nothing done by the Zionists, including a successful genocide, will ever hit that fan unless US policy turns around (or the US is defeated.)”

Fully entitled to your opinion. It is though I believe the sort of despairing opinion held by many pre the stuff hitting the Apartheid South African fan way back then. As for the US it has just elected a mega spiv to be it`s next President and who knows where his Twitter fetish will lead him to when it comes to Israel. As for genocide out of the question not least because Zionists wouldn`t be able to sleep at night being unable to weep and wail all the time about their unique victimisation status.

Vera Gottlieb
December 6, 2016, 4:48 am

This article is neither here nor there as Obama is leaving office very shortly.

Ossinev
December 6, 2016, 4:40 am

Poor dear. People are so so unfair. He should get out and about in the West Bank a little bit more. Seeing the IDF beat up a few Palestinian women and children will cheer him up no end.

Maghlawatan
December 6, 2016, 3:28 am

Why did Israel occupy Gaza in 1967 ?

It was utterly ridiculous

echinococcus
December 6, 2016, 1:11 am

You’re right, Walters:

It reminded me of the conversation an employer has with an employee, giving them one last chance before firing them. The offenses are laid out specifically and clearly. If the employee does not then make a course correction, that’s the end. The employer can truthfully say they gave the employee every chance.

That’s what it sounded like.
But there won’t even be a finger-wagging, let alone a hammer coming down after these words.

just
December 6, 2016, 1:00 am

It’s never really OT, ritzl. It’s more food for thought.

Here’s Israel slamming the US again, just after the US Senate just passed their latest turd:

“Israel votes to authorise illegal settler homes in Palestine

Passage of bill to evacuate one settler site while retroactively recognising others meets with condemnation from UN and US

Israel’s parliament has voted to retroactively legalise thousands of illegitimate settler homes in outposts built on private Palestinian land, in a highly controversial move described by critics as a “land grab”. The measure, which passed in a stormy Knesset session late on Monday, has been met with international condemnation, and has already strained relations within Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s governing rightwing coalition.

It comes in sharp defiance of a call on Sunday by the US secretary of state, John Kerry, who urged Israel again to rein in the construction of settlements on West Bank land.

The bill passed its first reading by 60 votes to 49, and still has to pass a further three votes before becoming law. During the debate, the opposition leader, Isaac Herzog, fiercely denounced the law by equating its adoption to “national suicide”. While the bill seems likely to have support to pass its further readings, it appears inevitable that it will be challenged in court.

Israeli critics and Palestinians have described the legislation as a land grab that would further distance prospects for a two-state solution to end the long Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Some high-profile political supporters, echoing that view, celebrated the vote by saying it opened the way to annexation of the West Bank and the end of any prospect of a Palestinian state.

According to estimates by opponents – including the prominent anti-occupation group Peace Now – the new law, if finally approved, would effectively annex 55 illegal outposts and approximately 4,000 housing units in settlements and illegal outposts.”

more @ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/05/israel-votes-to-authorise-illegal-settler-homes-in-palestine

Funnily enough, I couldn’t find any “condemnation” from the US government, but there is this:

“The vote was quickly condemned by the UN envoy for the Middle East peace process, Nickolay Mladenov, who said the legislation “has the objective of protecting illegal settlements built on private Palestinian property in the West Bank. It is a very worrying initiative. I encourage Israeli legislators to reconsider such a move, which would have far-reaching legal consequences across the occupied West Bank”.”

How much more can and will the US swallow?

It seems an infinite amount. History will not be kind.

Marnie
December 6, 2016, 12:13 am

Journalist Jeffrey Goldberg: You’re describing a situation in which you have zero leverage.
Kerry: I think we do – I think we do have leverage —
Goldberg: But they never listen to you.
Kerry: No, they don’t, and they haven’t listened on settlements, that’s correct.

This conversation took place in a public forum? How embarrassing! Kerry and Goldberg sound like teenage girls. Kerry’s wondering why his ‘boyfriend’ (israel) won’t call anymore and Goldberg, the sympathetic anti-friend, who just wants to see Kerry be humiliated, plays along, partly encouraging, partly humiliating, as only an asshole ‘friend’ can do.

Kerry: I gave him everything he asked for, I mean EVERYTHING! And I get nothing in return! No call, no date for the prom! And I think I’m pregnant!
Goldberg: Really, gee that’s tough. It’s like he used you and now you’re dead to him. I told you he’s a real dick. Guess he just wasn’t that in to you, hit it and quit it. Can I get his number?

xanadou
December 5, 2016, 11:49 pm

Hacked? Don’t think so, considering the insane hodge-podge of voting machines and fatally broken US voting system. But quite possibly skillfully manipulated from afar via the likes of Saban, et al. I rather doubt than even the zios could stomach the possibility of a clinton doormat for the next 4-8 years, whose servile submissiveness would likely hasten the rate of decline of US’s support.

On a related subject, +972 has published/posted an interesting article “Nearly half of Americans support sanctions on Israel, poll finds.”
http://972mag.com/nearly-half-of-americans-support-sanctions-on-israel-poll-finds/123472/
The comments section is uncommonly rich (for +972) with opinions, some more shocking than others. I had no idea, e.g., just how despicable Stern (of the stern gang infamy) was.

gamal
December 5, 2016, 11:12 pm

I know not even double figures and already the complaints. Arabs ain’t what they used to be, sometimes we build our houses as demolished structures to maximize the space.

after all kharab and arab they must be related

michelle
December 5, 2016, 11:09 pm

.
one wonders if the way the world treats Israel is tough love
what would the way the world treats Palestine be called
.
just how much free money does the world lavish on Israel
directly and indirectly
publicly and privately
38 billion isn’t the USA total
and what did/does Israel do in return
.
there’s a movie that talked about a kosher tax in America
can’t be true can it
.
seems like the number of Muslim terrorists
might be the same as
the number of Jewish who don’t support Israel
is there a poll to this effect
.
one can hear the quiet voice growing too little too late too little too late
.
G-d please help us we can do better we can be better please help us
.
G-d Bless
.

gamal
December 5, 2016, 11:00 pm

“Arab is a Hebrew signifier that means “vermin” ”

oh well god seems very suspicious of them their only mention in his book is quite tart:

“alarabu ashadu kufran wa nifakan” (9.97)…here alarabu means bedu, according to Razi and others, he says the leaders in unbelief and hypocrisy….we never get a break..did he say the same in Hebrew? liable to ignore his limits ( ajdaru allayalamu hududa) and stingy fi sabeelilah, shit he has a point you know we are no better than we should be.

i aint sure about not Arab what do you mean, i am banu awf-metwali worst of the worst and we do live in Cairo now many of us in Nasr city in poor conditions and medinat almandubin (which appears on no map because the task was delegated, thats a bit forced but still i crack myself up)

Sibiriak
December 5, 2016, 10:34 pm

JWalters: And all that weapons money will be utterly useless against international sanctions.

———————-

International sanctions. Alright. Let’s suppose that one day they do come about.

What do you think the conditions would be? International sanctions must come with specific conditions.

For example, EU sanctions on Russia are conditioned on the implementation of a peace deal that Germany and France negotiated between Russia and Ukraine.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-germany-sanctions-idUSKCN0VP2AW
https://europa.eu/newsroom/highlights/special-coverage/eu_sanctions_en

So, if sanctions are put on Israel, it will be declared that Israel will have to do X in order to have the sanctions lifted.

What do you think that X will be?

gamal
December 5, 2016, 10:22 pm

no one is from Cairo

Maghlawatan
December 5, 2016, 10:09 pm

Oren is slimy. Anyone who will attempt to polish the turd of Israeli human rights abuses is.
What I find interesting about all the sociopaths who keep Israel doing what it does it that none of them sees the big picture , none of them understand where Israel is headed, none of them can stop the suicide

Maghlawatan
December 5, 2016, 9:05 pm

Gamal are you sure that drummer isn’t from Shubra ?

Maghlawatan
December 5, 2016, 8:58 pm

Where to start?

“Arab Bedouin” is a contradiction. The Bedu are not Arab.
Arab is a Hebrew signifier that means “vermin” and “not deserving of rights”. But they are not Arab.

The villages are not recognised. But there was $120 bn for settlers in place like “Amona”

“the reason for building new Jewish communities in the Negev is “to prevent the continued invasion of state lands by the Bedouin and to prevent the creation of Bedouin or Arab [territorial] contiguity.” Because it is not a democracy. Israel is us vs them 24/7

Non Jews do not have rights

the initial split was Jews vs “Arabs”
then the Russians many of whom were not Jewish came.
they became “Other”

So then it was “Jews and Other” vs “Arabs”

“We’re only looking for equality among Jews and Arabs; we don’t ask for anything else.” It’s too much for Yossi

“There’s one Jew who lives in our neighborhood. The state provided him with everything- water, electricity. Our families are dying slowly from the pressure and stress. We weren’t given schools, water, electricity or transportation. -” Moshe Dayan said “treat them like dogs. those who want to can leave”

Hapless Beer Sheva played Glasgow Celtic in the qualification for the Champions League in September . Take it away, Scotland
“You never understand unless you been in Israel”

The Scottish gentleman calls the Israelis “scum of the earth”. In hebrew that translates to “Arab”….

JWalters
December 5, 2016, 8:13 pm

Israel’s action is a blatant thumb in the eye of the international community, and all modern standards of justice and decency.

But it fits the view that the purpose of Israel’s religion-based, bigoted policies is to incite violence and war. Israel was financed by experienced war profiteers, e.g. “War Profiteers and the Roots of the War on Terror”, and Israel has been a war zone since its inception.

JWalters
December 5, 2016, 8:01 pm

Kerry took the trouble to inject the “biased and unfair” qualification in his answer. It seemed to me he was thus avoiding a blanket promise to oppose any and all resolutions critical of Israel. This could be especially true for the criticisms he himself laid out in this interview.

JWalters
December 5, 2016, 7:47 pm

That’s also how I saw it, watching last night on C-SPAN:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?419451-1/secretary-state-john-kerry-discusses-challenges-middle-east

It reminded me of the conversation an employer has with an employee, giving them one last chance before firing them. The offenses are laid out specifically and clearly. If the employee does not then make a course correction, that’s the end. The employer can truthfully say they gave the employee every chance.

Kerry delivered this message firmly, but also in the most sympathetic way humanly possible. I would call it “groveling” in a way no American Secretary of State should ever have to do.

And all the weapons money this administration has given Israel solidifies their claim of having given Israel every chance. There will be no basis for Israeli complaints or further chances when the hammer comes down. The administration’s case will be ironclad.

And all that weapons money will be utterly useless against international sanctions.

pabelmont
December 5, 2016, 7:23 pm

In the recent election campaign, the hard-line-DEMs were out of touch with the rust-belt, out of work, out of self-esteem, out of luck, and out of patience blue collar folks (many of whom, among other things not noticed, were also so depressed that they were sinking into various forms of addiction including opioids). Such depression was not a form of announcement that life under Obama was so wonderful they wanted 4-more-years of it. Clinton and her crew missed the signal (didn’t get the memo) (what is it in “We Want Change” that was hard to understand? Trump’s voters and Sanders’s voters were both saying it.)

So Oren being out of touch is not as surprising as this article makes it seem.

Politicians spend so much time with friends and colleagues that they live (in effect) inside a bubble the hard shell of which excludes “signals” from “other people”.

Just as Clinton said things that went down well with the hard-line-DEM insiders and therefore seemed to her to make sense, Oren writes things that go down well in Israel and therefore seem to him to make sense.

Yuck.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 7:10 pm

“You want this?”

No, thanks. I’m expecting a drone with a pitcher of martinis.

ritzl
December 5, 2016, 7:05 pm

Maybe OT, but just trying something out here:

Israel hacked our election(s).

RoHa
December 5, 2016, 7:02 pm

Noooooooooo!

RoHa
December 5, 2016, 6:42 pm
Sulphurdunn
December 5, 2016, 6:40 pm

It seems more and more that here in the home of the brave and the land of the free that people are excoriated for saying the wrong thing, with no regard whatsoever to whether it is true or false. Political arguments are based less upon evidence than emotion, cultural bias and inculcated religious bigotry. It increasingly looks like Adolph Hitler and Edward Bernays were right about the credulous stupidity of the masses. Fact makes the asinine notion of a master race or a chosen people or any other form of cultural, religious, ethnic or racial exceptionalism both ludicrous and dangerous. Yet this folly not only persists but is used by people who know better to sucker rubes who don’t.

Kay24
December 5, 2016, 6:08 pm

Our politicians have become a bunch of puppets, and the zionists yank their chains.

Kay24
December 5, 2016, 6:06 pm

Kerry like so many other leaders is making lame excuses. Israel has taken the American people for fools – they keep sponging off us, and do not seem to give a damn to the fact that the US has consistently condemned illegal settlements, and do not respect what our leaders say. We seem to be nation of pushovers. We should be ashamed for allowing Israel to take advantage of us.

xanadou
December 5, 2016, 5:37 pm

“Americans realize that Israel is going Jew-supremacist under Netanyahu.”

Perhaps leaving Judaism out of the equation might be the better approach. Otherwise it suggests that all Jews are in agreement with boobooyahoo’s fascism, while a fair and steadily growing number of Jews regularly voice their growing discontent with israel’s policies. The better idea might be to supplant “Jew/ish” with “zio/nist” which is more accurate. Furthermore, the former invokes the phony response of “antisemitism”, a joke coming from the white zio-racists with not a drop of semitic blood in their white veins, but who gleefully attack the real Semitic people of Palestine. No?

WH
December 5, 2016, 5:17 pm

“many of these outposts, most of them, are built on what is considered to be Palestinian private land. ”

Note that Palestinians never actually own land; they themselves or others simply “consider” them to own it.

rosross
December 5, 2016, 5:14 pm

It is morally wrong to demand a majority as a given for a particular religious group. It is unethical, bigoted, undemocratic, unenlightened and has no place in a civilized world.

Jews are a religion and no more a people, beyond religious metaphor, whatever some might like to believe, than any other religion. Religions do not get homelands or land rights.

And yes, I know that there is a strong belief within Judaism as well as Zionism that Jews constitute a people, a racial group etc., but that does not make it true or real. Religions contain many beliefs which are simply untrue and merely a part of the dogma and theology, originally meant as metaphor and not to be literalised. In fact orthodox Jews opposed the creation of a literal State of Israel on that basis – it was only ever meant to be metaphor.

Jews, like most religions, comprise all races and dozens of nationalities and the only ethnicity which exists as a whole, is the same religious ethnicity which all other religions share. Jews are not ethnic in any real sense of the term and religious ethnicity for Judaism is no different than religious ethnicity for Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc.

The Zionist propaganda that Jews are a people has fed and fuelled the atrocities committed against the Palestinians. Zionism entrenched the delusion that the conflict was about a group called Jews and a group called Arabs in order to deny the existence of the Palestinians.

Jew is a religious label, Arab is a cultural label, the same as European, Asian etc. The irony is that anyone spending time in Israel can see that Israeli culture is Arabic, Jewish and non-Jewish. Israeli Jews are different to Jews from other nations in the same way Chinese or Indian Christians are different to American or British Christians. The religion does not create a universal culture even though rituals, traditions and religious dogma are shared.

You cannot compare a religion with a culture. You cannot compare a Jew with an Arab anymore than you can compare a Hindu with a European. This issue is not about Jews or Judaism, or Arabic culture, it is purely a colonial war waged by Israeli (mostly European) Zionists and Jews against Palestinian non-Jews, the indigenous people of the land stolen by the colonists.

On one side are Israelis, Zionists and Jews, and on the other are Palestinians, Muslim and Christian. It is time to stop propagating the Zionist lie that this is about Jews and Arabs.

rosross
December 5, 2016, 5:04 pm

Israel exists on Palestine and beyond the UN mandate which remain the only arguable borders, exists not as a democracy but as a theocratic, brutal occupier, coloniser and apartheid State.

Israel exists as a colonial enterprise founded on religious bigotry in ways which would never be tolerated in any other State and which will not be tolerated for much longer for Israel.

The only just outcome is to give up the religious bigotry and establish one state where indigenous and coloniser share the land as full equals in a democratic system. It will happen anyway but if Israelis were smart enough, although smart is something they have never demonstrated, to initiate the process they would have some management of it.

rosross
December 5, 2016, 5:00 pm

Most Americans have not the faintest idea of the reality of Zionist Israel, nor the situation of the Palestinians.

A Palestinian State is impossible for the simple reason that Israel will not allow one to exist. A satrapy yes, a bantustan, certainly, but a fully independent State with exactly the same rights as any Israeli State, no!

In addition, there are so many illegal settlements throughout Occupied Palestine, and that is the area beyond the UN mandate which remains the only possibly legal borders for an Israeli State, that removing the settlers or having them become Palestinians, are equally a farce.

The only possible way two states could survive is for contiguous borders and exactly the same rights with East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital. Israel refuses on all those counts and that is why the only solution is a one-state solution, like every other coloniser, where the indigenous people share the land with their colonisers.

Discussions of two states is a waste of time and breath.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 5:00 pm

“That Goldberg’s dead.”

I wonder how the Atlantic’s readers will react to a magazine edited by a cadaver. They’re probably expecting a live person.
I’ve heard of employment “accommodations” for disabilities, but that might be going a little too far.

catalan
December 5, 2016, 4:23 pm

“Why is Israel the only country that whines 24/7 about the right to exist? I never hear Bulgaria moaning about it.”

My native land is your mind? So exciting! Let me know if you would like to learn something “from the inside”.
But my two cents – there is a lot of “whining” going on everywhere, by the same types of people too. Bulgarians tend to whine about the same thing Americans too – minorities, being “poor”, and everybody is against us. Meanwhile the smart people study math.

broadside
December 5, 2016, 4:18 pm

“Mooser” : “And I am sure Goldberg will make a clear and unequivocal statement to that effect.”

Of course not.

But when you’re expecting the person in the back of the room to raise his hand when they’re doing a count, and that hand isn’t raised….

close enough.

As a columnist, he could, and did, live and breathe Israel/Zionism. He simply can’t do that as editor. It’s not the position to “out-Jew the Jews,” as Bela Abzug put it. Out-Forward the Forward? -Commentary Commentary; -New York Post the New York Post?

That Goldberg’s dead. And not being in the midst of it, he might get a clearer look, see how foul it is.

MHughes976
December 5, 2016, 3:51 pm

International committees of kings, presidents and judges – calling themselves the United Nations or the Founts of Wisdom or whatever – have no true power to make what is bad good, any more than they have to make what is green blue. The events of 48 were bad, an outrage, a scandal.
I hope one day to see a referendum in Israel and Palestine appeovong a genuine settlements that sets this wrong somewhat right and approves a new and fair arrangement, but the hope is vanishingly faint.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 3:51 pm

“He’s in it for himself now. That means cutting Zionism loose.”

And I am sure Goldberg will make a clear and unequivocal statement to that effect.

But remember, Goldberg and the Atlantic magazine can always say that Goldberg’s Zionism is congruent with the ideals expressed by the Atlantic, and is appropriate for the Editor. They can maintain his experience as an IDF prison guard will give him an advantage in relations with the staff, too. So it could go either way, unless they can make it go away.

gingershot
December 5, 2016, 3:47 pm

Kerry Saban 2016 Highlights:

-Referencing the CIS Commanders for Israeli Security as the Israeli braintrust Kerry and Obama are listening to/talking with

-Asking the audience whether Israel is ready for the Palestinian vote in the ‘Unitary state’ (One State), and whether it is ready for a Palestinian Prime Minister’

-Leaving no doubt that today’s passage of the Palestine Annexation Law (which successfully passed 1st reading today) will trigger Obama’s greenlighting of an UN Sec Co Resolution against Israel. This was ‘Kerry’s tipping point’ for the end of the Israeli/Israeli Lobby farce of the 2SS which he referenced in his talk

BREAKING: Palestine Annexation Law passed today STILL ILLEGAL- Times of Israel
‘Attorney general Mandelblit says outpost bill passed today STILL illegal, even without Amona – Despite compromise that dropped contested clause to override court ruling, Mandelblit warns revised version legally indefensible even as measure races forward’=Headlines at timesofisrael.com

MHughes976
December 5, 2016, 3:42 pm

None of the three things, name, extent, Jewish majority are in themselves morally wrong. Imposing them by force was wrong and that needs to be set right. I don’t think you and I are that far apart.

gingershot
December 5, 2016, 3:38 pm

‘The End of Political Judaism and 1P1V1S’

WHEN: Saturday Dec 17 2016, 2:00 – 3:15 pm
WHERE: Otay Branch San Diego Public Library,
3003 Coronado Ave, San Diego, Ca 92154
WHO: Dr Lance Dale

Topics:

‘Welcome to the [Apartheid] state’ – Tzipi Livni Nov 16, 2016
Livni’s surrender of 1- retained Settlement Blocs, 2- the Wall, and 3- ending of Palestinian Right of Return

‘Obama’s Greenlighting of the UN Sec Co Resolution against Israel triggered by the Palestine Annexation Law/(Amona)’

The 3 Existential Events (seen as such by Israel itself) for the Collapse of Israeli Apartheid:
The Iran Nuclear Deal, UN Sec Co Resolution against Israel, and the ICC

‘The 3rd Israeli Generals Revolt (CIS) vs Bibi and the Settlers’
-The Commanders for Israeli Security (CIS)

‘The Diskin/CIS UN Chapter 7 Plan and the Dismantling of Israeli Apartheid’

The Israeli Civil War:
‘Obama and the CIS vs Bibi, Adelson and the Settlers’

‘1P1V1S (-One Person One Vote One State) replacing Apartheid’
-Marwan Barghouti and 1P1V1S from Shining River to Shining Sea

The End of Political Judaism and Kahanism in Israel and the US – Settlers, the Kahanist Alt Right, and the Israeli Lobby/Jewish Lobby’s Kahanist Islamophobia cottage industry

‘The Successful 2nd American Revolution of 4-2-15 and the Iran Nuclear Deal’

‘How the Israeli/Israeli Lobby ‘Clean Break Dream’ perished in Aleppo’

Q and A after talk…

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 3:35 pm

“What are your qualifications?”

Uh, pretty much the same as your’s “Hophmi”. He registered to comment at Mondoweiss, just like you.
And had the integrity to do it under his own name, too!

(But “Yoni”, be careful when dealing with “Hophmi”! This is the kind of mind you will be dealing with. A mind that can slice itself to pieces in just a few paragraphs.)

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 3:32 pm

Watan,

Bulgaria moaned about it all right for some 400 years and fought for it. Nobody denied its right to exist, not even its imperial overlords that it fought against. Bulgaria was on its own land.

broadside
December 5, 2016, 3:27 pm

No, Phil’s right here. Big big difference between being a columnist, and an editor. I don’t think Goldberg’s too smart, but he’s not dumb enough not to see the writing on the wall. He’s in it for himself now. That means cutting Zionism loose. To quote Michael from Godfather II, “You’re out, Tom.”

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 3:11 pm

It will certainly not be heard by Hophmi that Yoni Falic seems to never imply appeals to authority but gives references for the reader to research by himself.
Except the reader Hophmi, who doesn’t take anything without appeal to authority.

Hophmi may also want to reconsider his practice as a provocateur against the right to privacy. This certainly should have been reason enough for suppression of that post.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 3:11 pm

“After eight years of that under Obama, I’ve had about all I can stomach.”

Well, at least Trump will take away that phony Medicare, ACA, and Social Security.

And no doubt tens of millions of people with pre-existing conditions will be glad to be denied insurance again. What on earth made Obama think he could get away with that, and screw all the little hard-working Americans who run health-insurance companies?

“I’m betting that a lot of stuff that was just fine when Obama and the corporate Dems did it probably won’t sit so well with the faux-progressives when Trump does it”

Sure, all the Dems, especially Obama, used the Presidency to leverage their personal-name-brand companies. That’s why all foreign dignitaries make sure to stay at the Obama Plaza in Washington, DC.

gamal
December 5, 2016, 3:05 pm

bedouin love to tease and as the lady writes below Americans should learn Arabic before visiting Egypt to appreciate the wind up and perhaps retort, even the tea maker can’t suppress a laugh, looks like coffee that is bedouin tea so rich in tannin it can make you sick and we learn English for you.

Andree Chedid the Lebanese poet wrote

“Imagine branches

Ceasing to be perches”

and Adonis “my future is a desert…..

The cities break up

the world becomes a rising dust cloud

Only love

knows how to marry this place.”

I have come across Ms Gadzo before she seems quite unflappable.

anyway your native guide taking the proverbial a la bedu

https://youtu.be/TZOpaAhjpVg

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 3:00 pm

Hughes,

But that doesn’t mean that it’s wrong for there to be a state with other Israeli characteristics, such as being called ‘Israel’, extending from river to sea or having an actual Jewish majority

All three points directly violate all international norms, including the UN Charter ratified by all only 2 years earlier, but they are not wrong? I have trouble following.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 2:57 pm

Those numbers are ridiculous. Those figures put Israel between Austria and Togo in population. And there aren’t even a million settlers?

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 2:52 pm

Sibiriak,

That border can only be changed via negotiations, and there is no requirement that such negotiations ever take place. This has been affirmed in numerous UN resolutions and made…

Of course there is no requirement… by whoever wrote a vote proposal negotiated by some colonial powers. That’s totally irrelevant. The point is that it can be renegotiated. Hence it is not any country’s borders but just an armistice line maintained by naked force and a fake Oslo agreement.

Also, of course, “negotiating” only means having credible and sufficient armed threat. Nothing else.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 2:51 pm

besides, it’s not “the Jewish people” right to self-determination, because lots of jewish people are not interested in this zionist “self determination”. it’s an ideological political stance – zionism. it’s a “zionist peoples” self determination not a jewish peoples self determination.

and on top of that, lots of those zionist people have no intention to ever seek self determination in israel, much less move there. the whole self determination argument is full of holes, aside from the illegality of ones so called self determination crushing the self determination of the indigenous people.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 2:47 pm

it’s logically impossible to mount a serious and meaningful criticism of Israeli policy that is unbiased and fair. Can’t be done.

no, it’s illogically impossible!

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 2:43 pm

“Trump has broadcast this loud and clear regarding how he was, is treated by the press;”

That’s because “facts don’t matter anymore”

And Trump plans to make sure they don’t.

“Until Pizzagate is proven false, it’ll remain a story”

joemowrey
December 5, 2016, 2:43 pm

Peter,

I agree. As terrible as things are going to be under Trump, we can at least hope some of the nonsense and pretense concerning U.S/Israel will be more difficult for so-called liberals to ignore. The same could be true in other areas as well.

I heard it best described this way. Better to be dealing with a wolf in wolf’s clothing than a wolf in sheep’s clothing. And for me personally, I’ll have to say it’ll be a relief to be lied to and cheated and oppressed by a bunch of admitted liars, cheaters and oppressors than by a bunch of hypocrites pretending to be “progressives.” After eight years of that under Obama, I’ve had about all I can stomach.

Maybe now all the Obamkins will actually stand up for their core beliefs in opposition to Trump instead of rolling over. I’m betting that a lot of stuff that was just fine when Obama and the corporate Dems did it probably won’t sit so well with the faux-progressives when Trump does it.

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 2:39 pm

Sibiriak,

It certainly looks like not doable before getting rid of the entire occupation, nohow.

They should have thought of it when they started the partition nonsense. Now there is no stopping whatever will happen.

Except perhaps turning around US policy entirely, and that means tackling the general US population instead of pandering to antisemitism-hunting liberals and tribals.

The question is simple: Do you agree to the presence of Zionist invaders, as equals, anywhere on Palestinian soil?

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 2:36 pm

Ossinev,

Many different administrations have been “pointedly signalling”.
Obama cannot return the middle finger courtesy.
Also, “well we did warn you time and time again and you simply gave us the middle finger – you fully deserve all the s..t which is now hitting your Zionist fan” is unfortunately fantasy, not supported by previous history. Nothing done by the Zionists, including a successful genocide, will ever hit that fan unless US policy turns around (or the US is defeated.)

Ismail
December 5, 2016, 2:32 pm

“and if it’s not biased and unfair?”

Oh, Annie, Annie….any resolution of which Israel disapproves is by its nature biased and unfair.
This is not an empirical matter, it’s definitional. That is, it’s logically impossible to mount a serious and meaningful criticism of Israeli policy that is unbiased and fair. Can’t be done.

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 2:29 pm

Hophmi has been exceedingly clueless for a longish time but this gets the cherry:

what about Islamic nationalism?

Nobody told poor Hophmi in his Zionist bubble that the “Nation of Islam” is a very small sect of Americans revolting against American conditions.

Nobody told poor Hophmi that Islam officially and harshly opposes nationalism –seeing it as the antithesis of the Ummat the collective of believers that should not be divided by nationalism.

Nobody told poor Hophmi that Islam, or any other religion, is unlike how his Ziowashed mind imagines the Jews, i.e. as a racial characteristic.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 2:28 pm

“Also, your linked article provides no evidence but personal opinion (prediction.)”

And Goldberg could prove Phil Weiss wrong any time he wants to, by explaining how the liberal ideas of the Atlantic mesh perfectly with his Zionism. Or he could say “Phil’s right, I gave up on Zionism.”
But Goldberg won’t do either of those things if he can get away with it.

Talkback
December 5, 2016, 2:19 pm

“and efforts to delegitimize Israel by “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist”.”

What about delegitimizing a state, denying its people their rights to self determination, denying their state the right to exist AND expelling their majority AND occupying the rest for nearly half a century?

Oh, I see, that’s not racism, that’s just support for Zionism.

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 2:16 pm

Right. Let’s count on Goldberg (according to Phil Weiss a soon-to-be-ex-Zionist, yarright) and Kerry (antother ex, who protested against war with in the time of the dinosaurs, soon-to-be-ex-VIP) to mention something so simple.

Citizen
December 5, 2016, 2:15 pm

Mr. Isra Saleh El-Namy, Egyptian regime is paid by USA to foster pro-Israeli factors; indeed, it’s the next biggest welfare recipient of US foreign military aid after Israel to do so–please put this factor in this article’s context for MW readers. Thanks.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 2:12 pm

plus, there’s ample evidence opinion about israel that’s not very carefully worded gets met by huge denouncement and pushback to the extent ordinary people often are reluctant to even speak about it for fear of being permanently labeled an anti semite. i know what this feels like to go online and hear hideous stuff said about me — one has to move on and not be afraid or live in fear. it places a shroud around the conversation. like weeds in winter that conversation spreads underground and when the rain comes and the exposure of sun it sprouts up in mass, and that’s what we’re beginning to see, hence the laws in place to stunt the growth. but it’s too far gone, they simply can’t change what’s in peoples minds. there’s too much exposure now and no turning back.

as the howls of anti semitism continue (for virtually all criticism towards israel), while zionist racist are allowed to spew forth their vile islamophobia on pages of the main stream press and public broadcasts across the nation, the conversation will continue.

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 2:08 pm

Pabelmont,

Kerry has already annexed Jerusalem and of course Syrian territory.
But he is right in one thing, it all depends on not numbers but government commitment. In this case, certainly not the local government.

eljay
December 5, 2016, 2:05 pm

Zio-supremacists have promoted a vision in which a “demographic-threat”-dense Gaza is absorbed into Egypt while a less “demographically threatening” (and much more desirable) West Bank gets absorbed into Israel.

Egypt’s mending of relations with Gaza might hurt Abbas, but it might also successfully bolster and help to realize that Zio-supremacist vision.

echinococcus
December 5, 2016, 2:01 pm

Mr Weiss,

This is further evidence for my prediction that Goldberg in his new incarnation as liberal American editor in the footsteps of the abolitionists will become an anti-Zionist.

There is no evidence of it anywhere in the paper. If anything, his pushing the story that the X00,000 shtetlers cannot be evacuated is evidence of rabid Zionism preparing for annexation and faster genocide. Also, your linked article provides no evidence but personal opinion (prediction.)

Citizen
December 5, 2016, 1:55 pm

Kerry is nothing if he’s not useless in this matter, as is his boss, Obama, Penny Pritzker’s boy to the end. Worse, he’s actively useless; he’s like somebody who has had nails hammered into his body and keeps working to ignore them, to pretend he’s a real American agent of progress. The cost to the US taxpayer is huge, Bernie-style HUGE, as is the cost to America’s good reputation in the world. not to mention he provides the paint for artists to put a target on every American grunts back, as our best military generals have told congress, yet our main media never tells the US PUBLIC. Some folks got rid of the WASP power elite, then they got rid of the “Arabists” in the State Department, and they have bragged about both, and good riddance–but who will free us from the new power elite towards implementing the best US values? I voted for Trump but I won’t hold my breath. John Bolton, the Weekly Standard Zionist Bill Kristol? They are still courted by the mainstream TV news pundits….Trump courts them too…

Citizen
December 5, 2016, 1:47 pm

Further, the US public is now very aware that the mainstream media is no longer an outlet geared to enhance informed consent of the citizenry–Trump has broadcast this loud and clear regarding how he was, is treated by the press; so how long before the public catches on it also applies to US-Israel matters, macro foreign policy matters. Case in point: the NYT.

pabelmont
December 5, 2016, 1:46 pm

Kerry’s settler-count: “Today there are 385,500 or so”.

Pfui! The real count is more like 800,000 (see below).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel says (as of 9/2016 ??)

6,819,000 Inside green line All Israelis
0,455,000 E Jerusalem Israelis
0,345,000 Elsewhere WB Israelis
0,042,000 Golan
————–
0,842,000 Settlers total, 800,000 in Palestinian lands.

(NB: More than 10% of ALL Israelis !!) The command — if it ever came — to remove ALL settlers would really scratch an itch, what?

Kerry ? You listening ?
Maybe his settler-count is just settlers moved-in since he last “read Israel the riot act”. Or sumpn.

K Renner
December 5, 2016, 1:44 pm

Israel doesn’t listen to America?

Well, there’s a very simple solution to this problem.

Cut off all aid to Israel. America is absolutely in a position to dictate terms to the so-called Jewish state; on Palestine, on Lebanon, on Iran.

If Israel won’t play ball, then cut them out. No aid, no diplomatic support, nothing.

Simple, if only anyone in America had the guts to do it.

Keith
December 5, 2016, 1:43 pm

HOPHMI- “Thank you for making it clear once again that in your world, a Jew isn’t permitted to speak his mind.”

You have it backwards, Hophmi. I love it when fat-cats engage in straight talk and say things usually only uttered in back rooms behind closed doors. He who pays the piper calls the tune, or at least has veto power. Curiously, some folks don’t seem to understand that as long as Lord Saban and his ilk more or less own the Democratic Party, there is no likelihood of the Democratic Party becoming truly progressive. Bernie’s “revolution” is a fraud. I repeat a previous quote and link in case you missed it.

“In other words, in this article Hayden was describing, in an unusually concrete way, how the state of Israel, through its state officials and their compliant American partners, was effectively managing—exercising veto power over Democratic Party candidates, at the very least—American elections down to the level of State Assembly. In any constituency “attuned to the question of Israel, even in local and state elections,” Hayden knew he “had to be certified ‘kosher,’ not once but over and over again.” (Jim Kavanagh) http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/27/tom-haydens-haunting/ – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/keith/#sthash.WQsRsfd8.dpuf

Maghlawatan
December 5, 2016, 1:42 pm

how they have no history in the Middle East

for about 2000 years they don’t

Maghlawatan
December 5, 2016, 1:32 pm

Mooser a one state solution would be a disaster. Jewish women would not be allowed sing in public in a one state solution.

MHughes976
December 5, 2016, 1:29 pm

Well, Theo, I think that Mondoweiss has played a leading role in an extraordinary achievement, that of transforming the pro-Palestinian movement in the West from being negligible to being noticeable, as all the countermeasures so elaborately taken are proving. The other side is still overwhelmingly stronger but there’s a hint of unsettlement. I think, if I may say so from the outside, that MW has also succeeded in creating a voice which Is pro-Palestinian but authentically Jewish. There is a longer walk along a darkening road from being noticeable to being normal, or at least one recognisable strand of normal opinion. Because of the intense connection of West and ME our normality in the West, if we can make it that far, would compel some constructive change in the ME itself.

punterweger
December 5, 2016, 1:22 pm

Has no one noticed that there is a total contradiction in Saban’s statement? First he says: “…if you listen to Keith Ellison today and you see his statements, he’s more of a Zionist than Herzl, Ben-Gurion and Begin combined.” And right after that he calls him an anti-semite.

MHughes976
December 5, 2016, 1:16 pm

The present situation is a violent disaster for many people who actually have full human rights and have never deserved what has been done to them. No end is in sight.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 1:15 pm

“and it’s such an absurd statement”

And made much too soon.

punterweger
December 5, 2016, 1:05 pm

“…the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act of 2004, uses the controversial definition of anti-Semitism produced by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia …” The article should mention that, although the EUMC did produce this “working” definition. Its successor organization the EU’s Fundamental Rights Agency disavowed the definition and removed it from its website. Several commentators including myself pointed this out in earlier comments to another article.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 12:52 pm

and it’s such an absurd statement. keith said nothing about “a jew”, saban is one of the dem party’s top funders and his words belie “the Jewish community” — who he does not represent (because they do not speak in one voice) — is his primary concern. so do dems decide their own fate, or is it the funders who run the party?

when hops sees saban that’s what he sees “a jew”. but that is not what i see. i see a billionaire who wants to control one of 2 political parties in the united states. that’s a lot of power. and he doesn’t just “speak his mind” — that is not what i object to. he, like everyone else should speak their mind. it’s what’s on his mind that i question and the power he wields to actualize his priorities. but hops victimizes this powerhouse by claiming his adversaries don’t want to “permit” him to speak because he’s jewish!! how absurd.

there should be laws in place that prevent monstrously large donations to political parties or officials.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 12:31 pm

You listed many little things that YOU may consider is benefiting those people, however please ask one of them in the West Bank or in Gaza. I doubt they would agree with you.

i don’t have to ask them because they have already spoken.

https://bdsmovement.net/what-is-bds

The BDS movement was launched by 170 Palestinian unions, political parties, refugee networks, women’s organisations, professional associations, popular resistance committees and other Palestinian civil society bodies.

if palestinians in the west bank and gaza didn’t think bds was accomplishing anything, they’d stop. it’s not my position to judge whether this is effective action.

I know you try to justify the work of MW

the thought has not crossed my mind. and why would it? we have no need to justify ourselves. we support the Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality the best we can. why would that be cause for justification? we don’t publish to justify ourselves, we publish to expose israel’s crimes and expedite global consciousness regarding those crimes and a resolution to the present situation.

evidence suggests that our work in solidarity with activists around the world is effective. the results of the recent brookings poll — something like a 10 pt jump in the last year alone in the US, suggests there’s been a shift in awareness over this issue (and dem voters favor sanctioning israel by 60%, that’s huge). so again, there’s no need to justify anything.

relatively speaking, we may be the size of a wave in a bathtub, but we’re not alone and we’re not in a bathtub. we’re part of a global movement and cumulatively that wave is strong and powerful.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 12:29 pm

“israel just bought more f35 jets.jews need to watch out for there brothers in israel”

And when Israel uses those “f35” jets on Gazans, you will walk down the street with your chest puffed out, saying “Yeah, that’s us! Anybody got any objections? Huh?”

MHughes976
December 5, 2016, 12:29 pm

This poll should be set beside the Pew Survey of America/Israel/Palestine in May of this year. There is obviously still a major balance of pro-Israel sympathy, making me too think that the Brookings findings are being interpreted over-enthusiastically. There is probably a certain drift ‘our’ way, but it is still on a small scale and quite plainly hasn’t broken through the carapace of the political class, whose members do not significantly fear losing support by counter-boycotting BDS and officially defining anti-Z as anti-S.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 12:25 pm

“No. That’s not what I said at all. What I’ve always said here is that a one-state solution would be a violent disaster, and that I’d seen nothing to convince me otherwise”

That’s no threat, when you have the population and resources to defend yourself. “Hophmi” for every Zionist who leaves Israel as violence increases 100 more will arrive, under my “two magnitudes” plan for Zionist domination of Palestine!

Theo
December 5, 2016, 12:19 pm

Annie

I would like to comment on your comment to Just.
My question to Nada was what did the palestinian profit from the worldwide BDS. You listed many little things that YOU may consider is benefiting those people, however please ask one of them in the West Bank or in Gaza. I doubt they would agree with you.
I know you try to justify the work of MW, it is great to be able to discuss the problems in Palestina, however compared to the needed actions we only make waves in a bathtub.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 12:17 pm

Most of you would rather yell your heads off than accomplish anything.

actually, you come as close to throwing a rhetorical tantrum as any person here hops. the ceiling is crashing down and you lecture us on tone. how amusing/not.

the callousness for Jewish life around the world that I see in the BDS movement, which won’t even accept the reality of worldwide antisemitism, their role in causing it

jewish life around the world? since when have we even discussed “jewish life” in argentina or florida or toronto? what does this even mean? or is criticizing lobbying your idea of “jewish life”? is lambasting Moskowitz, his 1 million to hillary and putting his foot down over the florida dem state chair “jewish life”? is making a mockery of saban’s public denunciation of ellison “jewish life”? the callousness of which you speak is directed at the very characters preventing a two state solution by their constant and bullying one sided support for the apartheid aggressor state of israel. you know that. bds is only about a decade old and you aim to make it responsible for causing “the reality of worldwide antisemitism”. which is absurd. the bds movement exposes what israel does. it’s that exposure making “jewish life around the world” uncomfortable, because what is going on in israel is very ugly and lots of “jewish life around the world” has been supporting that unconscionable situation. but you don’t want that exposed. you want to blame the messenger for screaming fire while the fire is raging. and you go after our tone. you’re a farce.

What I’ve always said here is that a one-state solution would be a violent disaster

and yet you’re here aren’t you? you’re not battling it out against the stalwart forces opposed to a palestinian state. the impenetrable lobby, the israel firsters. you’re here dickering away with us, in your mind, the distant speakers from the zone of conflict — Western supporters who tend to be a little nuts.

don’t you have bigger fish to fry? or is our tone that’s the crux of your problem. because our tone is spreading — because for the most part, we’re just not that interested on how uncomfortable it makes israel’s supporters that israel’s crimes are being exposed. and contrary to whatever insane logic you’re spinning, jewish discomfort over israel becoming exposed is not a sign of anti semitism. everyone feels uncomfortable standing on the wrong side of history, the criminal side. that’s as it should be. it doesn’t mean the messenger is a racist. we’re just holding the flashlight and shining it on you and those like you.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 12:11 pm

“In fact, Weimar Germany also had such laws, which ended up radicalizing the top Nazi propagandists.”

Ah, how the present changes the past.

eljay
December 5, 2016, 12:09 pm

|| Annie Robbins: If it’s a biased and unfair and a resolution calculated to delegitimize Israel, we’ll oppose it.

and if it’s not biased and unfair? ||

It’s interesting that he’s prepared to oppose any “biased and unfair” (whatever that means) resolution that delegitimizes Israel, but he has no problem supporting Israel’s self-(self-)delegitimization of itself through (among other things) its:
– existence as an oppressive, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist state;
– occupation and colonization non-Israeli territory; and
– refusal to honour its obligations under international law (incl. RoR of refugees).

It’s like:
– objecting to media reports that condemn the rapist; while, simultaneously,
– defending the rapist’s “right” to “self-determine himself” in his victims.

Which seems to be the “tone” Zio-supremacists like to hear.

MHughes976
December 5, 2016, 12:03 pm

Kerry’s remarks don’t express tough love but weakness and endless hesitation. A non-vetoed Security Council resolution at this absurdly late stage would simply make the whole long Obama presidency look cowardly and not worth listening to. I see no reason for the upsurge of predictions of a major change in American, Western or Jewish attitudes to this problem or of Israeli loss of power or confudence.

Theo
December 5, 2016, 12:00 pm

When something ist forbidden, then it becomes even more enticing, during the prohibition people wanted to show that they do what they want and drank all that cheap gin made in bathtubs.
One could ask one question: why is Israel the only country on this globe that cannot be criticised, does it have to do with God picking them to be his/her/its favorits?
Or another: why are we wasting all those billions of dollars when we know that it will never survive history?

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 11:58 am

“If you’re going to criticize Jewish nationalism, then what about Islamic nationalism? There’s way more of it in the world than Jewish nationalism.”

No, a little less, since there are (according to Google) 1.6 billion Muslims and 2 billion Jews. They got about 4/5ths our nationalism.
And that’s why we must have Palestine. There is no resisting this kind of demographic pressure.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 11:52 am

“Thank you for making it clear once again that in your world, a Jew isn’t permitted to speak his mind.”

“Hophmi” what on earth are you talking about? “Keith” just thanked Saban for saying what’s on his mind.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 11:49 am

to pretend that Israel palestine is near the consciousness of a large segment of the US population is just false.

so you don’t believe in the results from the brookings poll? i watched the video of shelby, and as i recall he said that was one thing the 2 sides (dems and gop) had in common although they didn’t share the same opinion, both sides thought it was important. not the most important issue, but an important issue. so how could it be an important issue if it was not even “near the consciousness of a large segment of the US population”.

Maghlawatan
December 5, 2016, 11:47 am

Yonah the Peled family know how the Zionist sausage is made cos Nurit wrote a book about education in Israel. And Yossi is stupid for a reason.

Annie Robbins
December 5, 2016, 11:42 am

If it’s a biased and unfair and a resolution calculated to delegitimize Israel, we’ll oppose it. –

and if it’s not biased and unfair?

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 11:40 am

“I’m all in favour of justice, world peace, recognition of common humanity, and so forth, but not if singing is required”

What? Do it without a song?

Unthinkable

Peter Feld
December 5, 2016, 11:35 am

The Trump era will consolidate Israeli erasure of the Green Line and we can hope accelerate the abandonment of the two-state solution by liberal Zionist groups like J Street, NIF, and Ameinu who have been using it to confuse and distract from the push for full equal rights and an end to all Jewish privilege throughout Palestine. Hopefully Trump and Netanyahu will help turn all liberal-minded American Jews into anti-Zionists.

eljay
December 5, 2016, 11:29 am

|| hophmi: No. That’s not what I said at all. … ||

Yeah, I didn’t think so.

|| … What I’ve always said here is that a one-state solution would be a violent disaster, and that I’d seen nothing to convince me otherwise. … ||

And yet you Zio-supremacists continue to do everything in your power to ensure that anything resembling a just and fair two-state solution cannot be realized.

|| … Palestinians generally aren’t crazy. … ||

But according to you Palestinians are:
– murderous (“The Palestinians have plenty of weapons, which they’ve turned on the Israelis before … “); and
– violent (” … actual non-violence might actually be helpful to them. The Palestinians have never adopted such an approach.”).

But at least they’re not crazy.

|| … Most of you, predictably, won’t take my point about tone … ||

OK, so what tone will cause Israel:
– to end its on-going, unjust and immoral occupation and colonization of territory outside of its / Partition borders;
– withdraw to within its / Partition borders;
– honour its obligations under international law (including RoR of refugees);
– accept responsibility for its past and on-going (war) crimes; and
– transform from a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” into a secular and democratic Israeli state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally?

|| … and it reminds me again of how much of this is just childish political posturing for most of you … ||

Yeah, advocating the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality is incredibly childish political posturing. It’s not nearly as mature as:
– stamping your feet and demanding a supremcist state of your own because others have one; and
– claiming that you are entitled to do evil because others are doing evil.

Mooser
December 5, 2016, 11:25 am

“I have long, long learned just to smile and accept the gesture with its (almost always) positive intention, but how tired I am of people speaking to me in English after I have spoken to them in Japanese.”

Just let them know that you have rejected your US citizenship and are now a citizen of Japan, and speak Japanese. That you are “home” now.