100 Most Recent Comments
;) ok, i give up!
MOOSER- “It doesn’t really matter if you want to assimilate, if the group doesn’t want to assimilate you.”
Right on, Bro’!
MOOSER- “And it really doesn’t matter if you don’t want to be assimilated, if the group decides to assimilate you.”
Wrong-o, kiddo! Assimilation, like love, is a two-way street. One of the primary goals of Zionism is to prevent assimilation, to maintain the Jewish PEOPLEHOOD, that is, the pseudo ethnic kinship of a people apart. While you may be assimilated, and other Jews who so desire can be assimilated, Zionist Jews seek to maintain a Jewish tribal identity. So while modern Gentiles have more-or-less abandoned their pre-modern, socio-economic based bias against Jews, Zionist Jews have resurrected pre-modern Jewish socio-economic bias against Gentiles! As a consequence, Gentile hating/fearing Zionist Jews are integrated but not assimilated. How could any Jew who truly believes that his Gentile neighbors harbor eternal, irrational and murderous anti-Semitic hatred ever even want to be assimilated?
my pt isn’t to put a value judgement on it (degrees of assimilation) keith. my pt was to address the usage of it in the context it was addressed in the main article. as a candidate bernie vs lieberman — do i think assimilation matters? yes. to the degree, i think the word phil used was scrutinized, americans do not outwardly recognize differences. once you recognize something “other” than yourself it’s natural to scrutinize it. whether that be romney w/his mormonism or kennedy w/his catholicism, or whatever. a more secular person is likely going to blend more. from an outward appearance all of the people mentioned (ross, abrams, nuland) etc seem fully assimilated. i don’t think peoples levels of assimilation are always apparent — which is normal because most people are private. so there’s a working definition (and i think phil referenced that) and then there’s the reasons why people have doubts. granted many of those doubts come from fear rhetoric coming from zionists like ‘assimilation is worse than hitler’ etc . so i am really on the outside looking in. maybe because i am 9 generations american and never had another country i related to as home 100%. besides, it’s really not my business how much an immigrant has their foot in the door of another country. it’s normal. i wouldn’t subtract that from our society because (for the most part) it makes it beautiful — those cultural differences i mean.
Annie Robbins: i don’t agree. take the amish for example. while, as a group, they have carved out a place for themselves in american society, that place is not one in which they fully assimilates with the society surrounding it.
Good point, and I agree completely. My brief comment on “assimilation” obviously needed to be further developed.
As I just wrote to Keith: “assimilation” in a multicultural society means you can function smoothly and normally in most social contexts, you don’t isolate yourself completely, you can speak an official national language, you are are not widely viewed as abnormal or alien, etc.–but it doesn’t mean you have to abandon your ethno/cultural/religious etc. identity. (A full definition would need much more exposition, but that’s the gist of it.)
Recall that the original question was: are folks like Dennis Ross, Elliot Abrams, Victoria Nuland, Robert Kagan, and David Brooks “fully assimilated” into America’s democratic multicultural society.
I said yes. Obviously, there is no comparison there to the Amish or other “non-assimilated” communities, is there?
It seems they easily meet the minimal demands of being “assimilated”. The question then becomes are they “fully assimilated” , which implies there is some attainable state of maximal “assimilation.” That gets dicey for me.
Nobody took up the challenge to define criteria for maximal assimilation in America. If someone does, then are they going to set up a hierarchy of ” assimilation”, with some groups at the top, some in the middle, some at the bottom?
I accept your point that a minimal standard is necessary –but beyond that,imo, a whole lot of ethno/cultural/religious identification is fully compatible with “assimilation”.
Keith : Since a primary goal of Zionism is to prevent assimilation, then you believe that Zionism has been a colossal failure?
Zionism has been fairly successful in creating/maintaining a secular Jewish identity and secular/religious Jewish solidarity.
My point is that the criteria for “assimilation” is quite different in multicultural America than it was when the term “assimilated Jew” became prominent.
Then, “assimilation” meant losing a strong Jewish identity and blending in with a singular dominant national culture/religion. Today, in America, you can have a strong ethnic/cultural/religious identity and still be “assimilated”, because ethno/cultural/religious diversity is the norm in a multicultural society.
“Assimilation” in a multicultural society means you can function smoothly and normally in most social contexts, you don’t isolate yourself completely, you can speak an official national language, you are are not widely viewed as abnormal or alien, etc.–but it doesn’t mean you have to abandon your ethno/cultural/religious etc. identity.
The question was: are folks like Dennis Ross, Elliot Abrams, Victoria Nuland, Robert Kagan, and David Brooks “fully assimilated” into America’s democratic multicultural society. I say yes. If they are not assimilated, then who else is not?
That the overwhelming support for Israel among Zionist Jews is compatible with complete assimilation?
Yes. (I don’t particularly like the term “complete assimilation”)
Is overwhelming support for Israel by a non-Jewish citizen compatible with complete assimilation?
That the astounding success of power-seeking Zionist Jews is simply the result of individual meritocracy, Jewish kinship favoritism a negligible factor?
That Jewish opinion of Gentiles is, on average, roughly equivalent to Gentile opinion of Jews?
No. But “Jewish opinion” is not monolithic.
So, if a Jew converts to Christianity out of mere opportunism, in order to get on in the world, he can still be a Jew, whereas if he converts to Christianity out of conviction, because he actually believes in Christianity, that means he cannot be a Jew? Whereas, if a Jew ceases to believe in any religion, he too can still be a Jew. Sorry, I do not follow. That attitude just mystifies me.
And I guess that would also mean that, if Barry Goldwater’s Episcopalianism was just nominal, then he could also have been a Jew. Whereas, if he actually believed in Episcopalianism, then he cannot have been a Jew. Trouble is, how do we decide now what he actually believed? So he may or may not have been the first Jew to win a presidential primary in America.
“The Six Million” who perished in the Holocaust, the overwhelming majority were non-Zionists or anti-Zionists, refugees preferring Britain or the US over Israel.”
After WW2 there were about 250,000 Jews in “displaced persons camp’s” The six-million or so who perished, of course, could not be refugees anywhere.
“[two paragraphs of blaming Palestinians for demise of Oslo.]”
Why didn’t you just leave this part out altogether? It would have been a more accurate expression of how you really feel.
Oh well, at least you still allow SOME acknowledgment that nobody’s totally innocent. There’s hope for you yet.
“what does “relegated to First Division” mean?”
In England footballers are totally innumerate, and believe the primary digit is merely followed by 1, they dont need to count most games are scoreless, relegation is an obsession, but is less enjoyable than it sounds.
I think you go too far in saying the only reason he is treated as a serious candidate is the Lobby. Sure, that is essential. But every candidate save for maybe Trump and Rand Paul are so deeply beholden to the Lobby, it’s not like Rubio stands out. He is obviously ambitious, and a capable pol, rising to be Speaker of the Florida House at a young age. He is Latino. He is young.
Now I personally despise him probably more than any other candidate so I am not defending him, just saying that there are many other factors in his rise.
Anyone who funds and builds homes for squatters on occupied land should be arrested and brought before a War Crimes Tribunal and then locked up.
I can’t comment on how shocking it is for Winfrey and Swift to parade around with what amounts to blood diamonds.
“Say we build incredible economic institutions that would enable all the trade, industry and prosperity in the world.
If we do not control our roads, our borders, our airspace, how are these institutions going to function? They can’t.”
Not to mention, next time the occupiers “mow the lawn”, they’ll just target them anyway as part of their collective punishment.
broadside, so this is what you meant by:
there are two issues in Washington: tiny, criminal, apartheid Israel, and everything else.
and when i have time i’ll go back and read the rest of what you wrote and try to figure out what it has to do w/phil’s post. or not. it’s clear you’re angry, sorry we’re failing you here.
what does “relegated to First Division” mean?
I forgot to mention an excellent book on Friedman:
The Imperial Messenger, by Belen Fernandez.
this is rather OT but that line, “They’re the ones who don’t mention that they’re Jewish” reminds me of the first time i traveled to the east coast. i was 18 and visiting my friend who was a student at stanford, her dad was a surgeon at Columbia University Med Center. when her parents met me her dad asked me my last name (he also asked me what my dad did for a living). it struck me as rather odd because it wasn’t something other friends parents friends had asked me in northern california. and then i noticed that almost everyone i met on the trip asked me my last name too. i figured it was an east coast thing. mentioning or referencing ones heritage or ethnicity just wasn’t something anyone did when i was growing up. it wasn’t that it was considered rude, it just that we didn’t do it. if it came up in conversation organically perhaps but not just out of the blue w/no context. it’s still sort of like that here — when someone tells me their first name i don’t say ‘what’s your last name’.
” Every one of them will love a trip to Israel,”
A preposterously subjective claim.
Maybe if they go to and remain in Tel Aviv, and avoid anything politics or Palestinian-related.
“, It’s a wonderful country to visit from Tel Aviv to Jericho.”
Jericho isn’t and never will be part of Israel.
As for the rest of your hasbara babble– sure, if you ignore all the outstanding issues.
Apartheid South Africa was also nice too in the touristy areas, I understand.
“. I don’t think collective punishment is appropriate or moral,”
See, with a comment like this, and knowing who you are, I find it hard to not consider you as little better then a troll.
Whines about pretend “collective punishment” while absolving and even lauding the Israeli Jewish collective punishment of the Palestinians– either insanely stupid, or simply a troll as I just said.
“especially considering Israel is the native homeland of the Jewish people from antiquity.”
A total non-sequitur and typical hasbara nonsense. The only Jews whose homeland it was when Zionism got off the ground were the Palestinian Arab Jews already living there.
MOOSER- ““Hophmi”, the very first objections to Zionism were Jewish.”
That is absolutely correct. Additionally, Zionism obtained its initial funding from anti-Semites and Zionist fat-cats such as the Rothchilds. The great majority of Jews at the time had no interest in Zionism. As for “The Six Million” who perished in the Holocaust, the overwhelming majority were non-Zionists or anti-Zionists, refugees preferring Britain or the US over Israel. After the war, Jewish refugees from the camps were more-or-less shanghaied into going to Israel by Zionist agents in the camps. It was only the skillful exploitation of the Holocaust which eventually resulted in organized Jewry embracing Israel and Zionism. And now you have shameless Zionists like Hophmi hoping to influence the future by misrepresenting the past.
He definitely would’ve been.
“On another siteI have appropriated and plagiarised your priceless ‘Niet-and-ya-hoo’ , without your permission. For that I beg your pardon !”bintbiba
No pardon needed .Actually , your revised version is better.Do you mind if I use it.
“I thank you for all your great comments/humour and for your eloquent support of the Palestinian people !”bintbiba.
I consider it an honour and a duty to speak out for the Palestinian People .
” this seems like an extremely gross generalization to me k renner. ”
No, it’s only sort of a generalization. I didn’t say that they all do that sort of thing; just that I’ve seen people active in that movement do that sort of thing.
“where do you come up w/this stuff?”
Lived experiences. That is to a large degree how it seems to be when it comes to the “we’re here we’re queer” crowd.
HOPHMI- “They’re the ones who don’t mention that they’re Jewish.”
The rather obvious implication is that you do not consider yourself assimilated, nor do you want to be? Don’t care to spend too much time around the irrational, Jew-hating murderous Goyim? But, like the missionaries of empires past, you are willing to perform outreach to the benighted natives to teach them about sin (The Holocaust) and atonement (support for Israel). What a guy!
kris, just saw your comment. hysterical!
lysias- when Jews converted for the specific purpose of gaining entrance into Christian society, one can certainly question their Jewishness and leave it open to question. I believe Heine wrote admiringly/sympathetically about the people of his roots whereas Marx wrote disparagingly. Heine, I believe, clearly saw his conversion as merely a ticket to enter society and did not believe in either Judaism or Christianity per se. I never heard that Mendelssohn converted out of conviction but merely to gain entrance into society. sometimes people on here claim that there is no Jewishness outside of religion and to them obviously once you convert you stop being Jewish. Obviously to Hitler conversion did not change a person from a Jew into a nonJew.
Oh, yes. and Jesus. never converted and in fact considered himself the continuity (and possibly the culmination) of Judaism. He never considered himself anything other than a Jew.
my pleasure phil
another typically hysterical MW ‘expose of an anthill they construed -in typical high-conspiratorial mode- as a mountain when its nothing but some essay film by an independent filmaker with a distinct POV (who evidently would have been told to take his film to POV) but who instead decided to ramp up some fluffy light charges against Frontline and its producer. Wow. What a win for MW.
Thinking maybe it’s time to BOYCOTT these Oscars in protest of their apparent support of this racist, apartheid state.
“From Tel Aviv to Jericho.” Pretty sure Jericho is not part of Israel. Pretty sure it’s part of the Occupied West Bank. Been there. And on my visit this fall I did find both Israel and the West Bank to be beautiful places. But I found the Jewish people I connected with to be far less gracious, welcoming and kind than the Palestinians I met. And I found the walls hideous, the checkpoints humiliating, and pretty much never want to ever go back there.
“Netanyaho wants to bring back the good old days and plans to inprison all israelies” Theo
I think you meant to say that he wants to imprison all Jewish ” israelies” .the others he plans to get rid of.
Btw , I like your misspelling of Israelies Jewish Israelis do lie a lot.
well, it does at least appear that Terri Ginsberg’s article jogged his memory wrt recalling a conversation with Michael Singh.
SIBIRIAK- “So, hell yeah! Those guys are fully assimilated.”
Since a primary goal of Zionism is to prevent assimilation, then you believe that Zionism has been a colossal failure? That the overwhelming support for Israel among Zionist Jews is compatible with complete assimilation? That the astounding success of power-seeking Zionist Jews is simply the result of individual meritocracy, Jewish kinship favoritism a negligible factor? That Jewish opinion of Gentiles is, on average, roughly equivalent to Gentile opinion of Jews?
Gosh, I hope mondoweiss corrects this ASAP, so we don’t have to think about whether these three young people were in their teens or early 20’s, instead of thinking about Israel’s war crime of collective punishment against 25,000 people.
“Maybe I’m wrong in thinking of Mondoweiss as “journalism”.”
I know what you mean, “Jon s”!
Why I remember once, some commenter wanted Mondo to report the senseless shooting-and–beating murder of an innocent Eritrean man as “a terrorist attack on Beersheva”!
Was there a “correction”? Or did he ‘double-down’ on the “terrorist attack” schtik? Do you remember, “Jon s”?
■ SOME PRIMO SNARKCASM FROM WERNER HERZOG:
● Auction Scene from Werner Herzog’s Stroszek
Uploaded on Jun 23, 2008 — The Auction Scene from Werner Herzog’s classic film, ‘Stroszek’ (1977) about a Hungarian immigrant in Berlin, Germany, who moves to America with his girlfriend to live with his really old neighbor and his nephew who lives there. This is the auction scene with the ‘cowboy auctioneer’ – towards the end.
Fayyad – Elliot Abrams and the rest of the Neocons dream candidate for giving Israel the Palestine they want
Elliot Abrams was always championing Fayyad which tells us all we need to know: bought lock stock and barrel by Israel and the Israel Lobby
Friedman as always is a gatekeeper, Who else has acted to confuse the Middle East for Americans more than Tom? This is rearguard action
Friedman is a reliable indicator of how far lost their cause is … When he admits it it’s already too late to defend any iota of it further
I guess we’ll agree to disagree on “American founding values”, as the US is one of the most frequent and gruesome breakers of international law and atrocities against humanity across the globe today. But putting that aside, when it comes to the two state solution I fail to see how that will be a just solution for the Palestinians. I fail to see how it will solve anything, or how it will help the millions of refugees come back home.
It is rejected by the majority of Palestinians who view every bit of land as their ancestral homeland that they were robbed of, and despite all the sacrifices it is not enough for Israel who continues to settle.
The only way to be able to live there is through a one state solution that becomes egalitarian after struggle, not a 2 state bantustan.
Let’s be frank, we’re already living a 1 state reality. Israel rules everything, the PA is merely an administration. When this fig leaf disappears then Israel will have no choice but to confront a population asking for rights and equality, which is a struggle it cannot win. It will eventually lead to a comprehensive solution, whereas even if the 2 state solution is enacted tomorrow it will not solve the root cause of the problem, it will not end the conflict, it will not bring back the refugees, it will not make Palestinian forget about Haifa and Safad, it will not make Israel less in control.
Javier Bardem was excellent in the Coen Brother’s “No Country For Old Men”. I hope the reason he isn’t in their new movie “Hail Caesar” is because he is an Israel hating shmuck. The cast of “Hail Caesar” are big time actors who have been in previous Coen Brothers movies.
The website of The Public Theater carries the statement: “The LuEsther T. Mertz Charitable Trust provides leadership support for The Public Theater’s year-round activities.” I suppose this is the most likely source of opposition. But if putting on the play was always contingent on the consent of funders and this consent had not been obtained, then the promise must have been insincere even at the time it was made.
Fayyad – Elliot Abrams and the rest of the Neocons dream candidate for giving Israel the Palestine they want
Elliot Abrams was always championing Fayyad which tells you all you need to know: bought lock stock and barrel
It doesn’t really matter if you want to assimilate, if the group doesn’t want to assimilate you.
And it really doesn’t matter if you don’t want to be assimilated, if the group decides to assimilate you.
Jews, whether we like it or not, have been assimilated by the United States.
Now, as to what we, individually, and as communities, or organizations we call Jewish, do with that assimilation, that’s another question, and in the case of Zionism, the answer is pretty bleak, I think.
■ Berry Gordy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[EXCERPTS] Berry Gordy, Jr. (born November 28, 1929) is an American record producer and songwriter. He is best known as the founder of the Motown record label and its subsidiaries.
• Early years
Berry Gordy, Jr. was born to the middle-class family of Berry Gordy II (also known as Berry Gordy, Sr.), who had relocated to Detroit from Oconee County, Georgia*, in 1922.  The first Berry Gordy was the son of a white plantation owner in Georgia and his female slave. Berry Gordy, Sr. was lured to Detroit by the job opportunities for black people offered by the booming automotive businesses. He developed his interest in music by writing songs and opening the 3-D Record Mart, a record store featuring jazz music. The store was unsuccessful, and Gordy sought work at the Lincoln-Mercury plant, but his family connections put him in touch with Al Green (no relation to the singer Al Green), owner of the Flame Show Bar Talent Club, where he met the singer Jackie Wilson.
In 1957 Wilson recorded “Reet Petite”, a song Gordy had co-written with his sister Gwen and writer-producer Billy Davis. It became a modest hit, but had more success internationally, especially in the UK, where it reached the Top 10 and even later topped the chart on re-issue in 1986. Wilson recorded six more songs co-written by Gordy over the next two years . . .
• Motown Record Corporation
Gordy reinvested the profits from his songwriting success into producing. In 1957, he discovered the Miracles (originally known as the Matadors) and began building a portfolio of successful artists. In 1959, with the encouragement of Miracles leader Smokey Robinson, Gordy borrowed $800 from his family to create an R&B record company. Originally, Gordy wanted to name the new label Tammy Records, after the song recorded by Debbie Reynolds. However, that name was taken, and he chose the name Tamla Records. . .
. . . Berry’s third release was “Bad Girl” by the Miracles, the first release on the Motown record label. “Bad Girl” was a solid hit in 1959 after Chess Records picked it up. Barrett Strong’s “Money (That’s What I Want)” initially appeared on Tamla and then charted on Gordy’s sister’s label, Anna Records, in February 1960.
Tamla and Motown labels were then merged into a new company, Motown Record Corporation, incorporated on April 14, 1960. In 1960, Gordy signed an unknown singer, Mary Wells, who became the fledgling label’s first star, with Smokey Robinson penning her hits “You Beat Me to the Punch”, “Two Lovers”, and “My Guy”. . .
SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org
* Oconee County, Georgia is just south of Athens and was named for the Oconee River, which was named for the native Oconee, a Muskogean people [i.e., the Muscogee (or Muskogee), also known as the Creek] of central Georgia. The Oconee lived in present-day Baldwin County, Georgia at a settlement known as Oconee Old Town until they were made to vamoose when their land was “ceded” (all quite kosher-like, I can assure you) in 1802 by the Creek Nation in the Treaty of Fort Wilkinson.
The Oconee name exists in several variations, including Ocone, Oconi, Ocony, and Ekwoni.
I was sitting with Karim Khalaf 2 years after his foot was blown off when he tossed me a copy of the Jerusalem Post. He said “look at how they are handling the people who did this to me?” In an articleThe Post quoted multiple members of the Knesset who wanted to treat Segal as a national hero and wanted him to be pardoned. The look of despair and sadness in this man’s eyes as his only crime was to be the Palestinian Mayor of Ramallah. He had told me he was very lucky that morning, since every other morning he had his daughters in his car with him.
But what the hell, it’s not as if Segal cheated on his taxes, he only blew up a Palestinian, so what is the big fuss about.
jon, just heard back from adam, we will be following up. thanks for your attention on this issue.
Because support for Israel in Washington is across the board. Can you think of any other issue in Washington that is?
Extending unemployment benefits for millions of Americans, who, without which, could be out of the street? Could starve? Congress divided.
Raising taxes on the super wealthy? Congress divided.
Going to war in Iraq? Congress divided.
More funding for Amtrak? Congress divided.
And on and on.
Sure other lobbies might get their way. The NRA, for example. But those opposed aren’t afraid to raise their hands.
During the latest Israeli mowing of the grass, one hundred US senators rushed (and you’ve never seen Congress move like they move for Israel) to give Israel hundreds of millions of dollars worth of more weapons even though just the week before, by slaughtering four Palestinian boys playing futbal on the beach, they violated the very terms by which they get those arms.
(And I see where this thread has been relegated to First Division, so don’t feel you have to answer, I know you have other things to do.)
Zionists lie, lie, lie and cover-up cover-up, cover-up.
If they were unable to 1. Brainwash people from birth and 2. Control the narrative in the media, schools, movies — the pull would be pulled on this failed racist experiment immediately.
Israel apologists ought to be hoping BDS works; the alternative is far worse.
“I never claimed any official numbers, just giving my personal perspective therefore it is normal to not supply a peer-reviewed source.”
I can only think you must have an exceedingly close contacts with Israeli Mizrahim, to offer such confident estimates. Why, I would think you know quite a bit about Israel, at least from one person’s perspective.
this is the first i have read regarding this. i will alert phil and adam. btw, the linked ma’an article mentions a few teens, one “Hamdallah also denounced the death of 14-year-old Haitham Ismail al-Baw, killed by Israeli forces the day before in what he termed a summary execution by Israel” and does not specify the “Three Qabatiya residents in their early 20s, ” were responsible for the attack in jerusalem — therefore it’s not a source contradicting the headline. but as it was subsequently published elsewhere identifying them as the perps it warrants attention.
sib, just got around to reading the rest of your comment and have further thoughts:
I don’t think any of that is really applicable to contemporary multicultural America. It’s is entirely misguided, imo, to view religious Jews or any other ethnic/cultural/religious etc.identity group as some kind of “unassimilated” or “partially assimilated” guest group in a “host society.”
i don’t agree. take the amish for example. while, as a group, they have carved out a place for themselves in american society, that place is not one in which they fully assimilates with the society surrounding it. in fact, when members of their group interact in certain capacities with the outside world, they are literally kicked out of their communities. so how could one imagine they fully assimilate?
if someone moves to the US and learns the english language but chooses to live a lifestyle where they do not have social interactions that include speaking english — iow willingly choose to not interact with people outside of their native tongue — i am not sure how one could consider they have chosen to fully assimilate within american society. albeit, for native americans it’s different because they didn’t immigrate here.
decisions within a group structure that penalize interactions with people outside the group by being banned from the group indicate no assimilation.
think of the sex scandals within orthodox jewish communities where it is forbidden to go to the police department and instead the family is required to go the local rabbi. how is this full assimilation? when a group requires or demands separated law enforcement and separate standards of crime than everyone else? how is that full assimilation? whereas it doesn’t necessarily mean they are not assimilated at all, but when there’s no assimilation in certain areas, it’s a matter of degree.
there’s also an argument to be made that full assimilation is the complete distillation of all distinguishing cultural features to the point of making those distinguishing features disappear or become unrecognizable — which, while i would not advocate, is not necessarily detrimental. and i think many americans, especially those who live urban lives in america, including where i was raised in california, there is a multitude of cultures here and you can see this merging influence all around, in art, music, architecture, ideas.
RT just reported on the “wild beasts” comment.
Back in early January, bbc (r4 & world sevice) aired a prog called “Correspondents Look Ahead” in which senior journos predicted for the coming year. On the topic of your general election, several picked Rubio as the one to watch and thought he’d quite possibly be next pres. Grim prediction.
Still no correction.
In Journalism 101 you learn that if what you published was erroneous, you publish a correction. You even gain credibility by doing so.
Maybe I’m wrong in thinking of Mondoweiss as “journalism”.
Would the independent voters in the general election possibly, even possibly, choose Rubio over either Democrat after his ridiculous (and a bit idiotic) showing? I guess this might be a real, an acid, test for the Koch/Adelson theory of democracy manipulation.
On another siteI have appropriated and plagiarised your priceless ‘Niet-and-ya-hoo’ , without your permission. For that I beg your pardon !
I do hope you don’t object ! I hyphenated it just so it sticks out like a sore thumb!
I thank you for all your great comments/humour and for your eloquent support of the Palestinian people !
it was definitely considered a small local cult back then yes.
there’s nothing childish about disrespecting a disrespectful person, per se.
It’s already on my “must miss” list.
0h — 3 months ago, no wonder i don’t recall. that was a long discussion — and i was giving my opinion. sorry if it offended anyone. but i think arguments are better made on merit alone not by going after the “Ashkanzi Knight” feature unless the specifics of an ethnicity are built into the argument. anyway, sorry if that offended anyone.
I notice that you only capitalize people you approve on. Very childish.
Just like that other cult started by that Jewish dude, Jesus.
Goldwater said that he was Jewish. Shouldn’t that be good enough for all of us?
If conversion to Christianity means that somebody is not Jewish, does that mean Heine was not Jewish, Marx was not Jewish, Disraeli was not Jewish, Mendelssohn was not Jewish, Mahler was not Jewish, and so on and on and on? And what about Jesus? Was he not a Jew?
Send them to Detroit in stead.
|| Maximus Decimus Meridius: Not unless she cultivates another facial expression. The one she’s got has become a tad boring. … ||
I’ll have to disagree.
|| … Anyway, even if we disagree over whether Johansson is going to challenge Meryl Streep’s record of Oscar noms … ||
I doubt she will. But I don’t put much stock in Oscar nominations.
|| … I think we can agree that the Sodastream affair hasn’t actually enhanced her image, even if you believe that getting on the cover of a Hungarian magazine means it hasn’t damaged it. … ||
Fair enough – I agree.
broadside, i didn’t address what you didn’t say or what you meant (“those groups are routinely mentioned negatively in Washington, never the Israel lobby”), i addressed what you wrote as i interpreted it as best i could.
that said, our msm and our politicos routinely evade mention or criticism of the israel lobby — of course. but our politicians (and media) do not routinely discuss the power of any lobbies — mainly i presume because those same lobbies target both the media and politicians. that’s one thing that is making this bernie/hillary competition exciting, however, while addressing special interests neither are mentioning the israel lobby.
how you were wrong was 2 pronged.
A: But let’s cut to the chase: there are two issues in Washington: tiny, criminal, apartheid Israel, and everything else.
that’s a tad myopic. you don’t understand phil’s meaning and accuse him of being “lazy”. do you think everyone is supposed to know what that means because you follow it with this:
Vatican doesn’t have that power (abortions are still obtainable, in places) , seniors don’t have that power (no cost of living increase for them; billions more for Israel) the gun lobby does’t have that power (people mention the gun lobby), the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t have that power (they, at least, get questioned). Only Israel.
what power? the power to not be criticized? the power to get their way? the power to not be mentioned? you’re wrong because there ARE more than 2 issues in washington, and other powerful lobbies often get their way. and israel not “never” mentioned and they do not always get their way. that said, of course i think they have too much power.
i am really backed up and might not get to your response in a timely fashion. and i won’t accuse you of being lazy if you don’t understand my meaning either.
Minor event. The only reason I remember it well is because of quip by the inimitable gamal:
but whats even worse is an Ashkanzi Knight riding a gamal, there are no countermeasures. Entitled and boorish, the ultimate solecism
Thanks to the Israel lobby, foolish American politicians for years have encouraged Israel to grow its illegal colonies of Jews in the occupied West Bank.
I doubt Friedman thinks Israel will annex those portions of the West Bank with too many Muslims.
The question I often ask myself when reading about the exploits of these “Underground” Zionist ” heroes “is “Were they born scumbags or did they have to practice ? ”
Same applies to the so called “Justices ” who meted out the piffling punishments and to the generality of Israeli Zionist Jewry who moan and wail at the scale and barbarity of”Arab terrorist” atrocities whilst at best turning a blind eye to those in their own community who have been and continue to be guilty of the same or worse.
What a truly perverted little cult colony the Land of Creation has become.
Thank God for the likes of Gideon Levy who bravely hold a candle for true Judaism.
BOYCOTT UGLY APARTHEID ISRAEL
SUPPORT THE BDS MOVEMENT
TELL YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY ABOUT BDS
sib But the question I raised is: assimilation to what? What standard? A single standard? Can you precisely define it?
i was just trying to be helpful wrt what i assumed phil meant and others mean by assimilation wrt the jewish community. this is not my forte. others could probably better define the meaning, which is probably very fluid depending on who you talk to.
And how long did their kingdoms last?
Not long. But still longer than the Zionist entity, I should think.
Elton John is a known sanctions buster and has been for decades, so who cares about him. Beyonce would do anything for money too. But Springsteen? Now that IS disappointing.
Sibiriak, i am sorry, my mind is like a sieve. i literally do not recall this or other specific arguments or in comment sections beyond a week or two. but i will go look for it when i have time . what thread is it (what article). we’re backed up here.
And a real country, with a real culture and a real history.
” I think she’s actually a pretty capable actress who’ll be around for some time to come.”
Not unless she cultivates another facial expression. The one she’s got has become a tad boring.
Anyway, even if we disagree over whether Johansson is going to challenge Meryl Streep’s record of Oscar noms, I think we can agree that the Sodastream affair hasn’t actually enhanced her image, even if you believe that getting on the cover of a Hungarian magazine means it hasn’t damaged it. And like I say, she had clear financial interests in shilling for Sodastream, which clearly made it worthwhile for her not to jetison them. The same does not apply to the Oscar nominees who have nothing to gain, but potentially something to lose, by accepting this ‘gift’.
Marnie, it seems Israelis have low expectations when it comes to their leaders. Americans will have reached the bottom too, if this despicable clown Trump should ever become President.
Sara the bottle lady, must be mean to her hubby, it seems he takes his frustration and anger out of the poor Palestinians.
“So I don’t think Friedman deserves any credit here…” I couldn’t agree more, Donald. Weiss writes, “Hat’s off to Thomas Friedman.” Really? I want some of what he’s smokin’. This Friedman article is just more of the same glib, jokey, status-quo “balanced” B.S. we’ve seen from Friedman on Israel forever. He’s a master of writing/talking a whole lot without really saying much. He’s my poster boy for the “Conservative is the New Moderate” movement.
Annie Robbins: the gun lobby almost always gets whatever they want…
Wall Street lobbyists have a pretty good track record as well; as does the MIC.
broadside: Annie has a valid point, there are degrees of assimilation.
Of course, processes have degrees. But the question I raised is: assimilation to what? What standard? A single standard? Can you precisely define it? I don’t think the term is all that useful any more. It’s anachronistic.
Annie wrote: “the idea someone would reject the notion of marrying a non jew means they are not fully assimilated ”
Okay, a European- American who won’t marry a non-European-American; an African American who won’t marry a non-African-American; a Christian who won’t marry a non-Christian– are all these folks “not fully assimilated”?
Who then IS “fully assimilated”– what’s the standard?
In Assimilation in American Life, Milton Gordon defined assimilation as a continuum, with the first stage acculturation, that is, the adoption of such outward cultural forms of the larger society as language, dress, recreational tastes, and political views.
Total assimilation is possible only if the host society is receptive and extensive intermarriage takes place (at its most in former European colonies with a divisive black-white line, which allowed Jews to be seen as part of the desirable white element and where miscegenation was hardly a taboo).
Most European and American Jews acculturated, but they rarely lost their sense of Jewish identity. They most frequently abstained from what Gordon called “structural assimilation,” the creation of friendships and other contacts primarily with members of the host society.
* * *
Milton Myron Gordon (born October 3, 1918) is an American sociologist. He is most noted for having devised a theory on the Seven Stages of Assimilation…
1. Acculturation: newcomers adopt language, dress, and daily customs of the host society (including values and norms).
2. Structural assimilation: large-scale entrance of minorities into cliques, clubs and institutions in the host society.
3.Marital assimilation: widespread intermarriage.
4.Identification assimilation: the minority feels bonded to the dominant culture.
5.Attitude reception assimilation refers to the absence of prejudice .
6.Behavior reception assimilation refers to the absence of discrimination.
7.Civic assimilation occurs when there is an absence of values and power struggles.
I don’t think any of that is really applicable to contemporary multicultural America. It’s is entirely misguided, imo, to view religious Jews or any other ethnic/cultural/religious etc.identity group as some kind of “unassimilated” or “partially assimilated” guest group in a “host society.”
Friedman is a bombastic advocate of violence and aggression, and an early and enthusiastic supporter of the US invasion of Iraq.
In a just world, Rashid Khalidi would have a regular column in the NYT, not Friedman.
But all of this makes Friedman’s criticism of Israel and his proclamation that the 2SS is dead.
In the past, prominent members of the foreign policy Establishment have complained about Israel’s behavior: Mearsheimer and Walt, and Jimmy Carter. Now event the NYT, “the newspaper of record,” is criticizing Israel and especially the Israel right-wing extremists around Netanyahu.
Yes, of course, many others made some of the same points a LONG time ago: from Chomsky to Finkelstein to the activists around the Electronic Intifada, to Mondoweiss. But don’t expect Friedman to give them any credit. He’s a bigfoot pundit after all..
Disingenuous, too, Annie, as I was clearly referring to his betrayal in active support of McCain’s presidential bid – See more at: link to mondoweiss.net
oh sorry, i must have read a little more into this and didn’t realize you were only addressing lieberman’s support of mcCain. here, i just googled “lieberman betrayal supporting mcCain” and this popped up. i would link to the nyt article but only get 10 free ones a month:
Hartford – Democrats Vent Against Lieberman – NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/…/21polct.htmlThe New York Times
Dec 19, 2008 – CONNECTICUT Democrats have said they felt angry and betrayed by Senator Joseph I. Lieberman’s support of John McCain, the Republican …
there’s more. i recall he became a huge thorn in the side of dems and was roundly criticized. but maybe i am wrong and only remember my own opinion.
All territories of Israel are stolen and legally belong to the palestinians, GB, USA and the UN had no right to give away a land that doesn´t belong to them! In addition, international laws forbid annexation and populising a land conquered in a war.
At partition jews made up roughly 30% of the population, but received 70% of the land, so even then it was fixed to benefit the jews. Speaking legally, the palestinians should decide how they arrange a new division, they lived there for many centuries, it is their property.
“Settlers can then be given the opportunity to remain in Palestine….”
You must be joking!!! Do you really believe that any of those settlers would except a palestinian government and laws, give back the stolen lands, and give up their weapons? How could such land function, when 25% of the habitants are hardcore zionist terrorists, still living in times of 1,000 BC?
Those settlers must leave Palestina, one way or another, and go back to the countries they came from. If your build a house on sand, it will collaps very soon.
“Legality from an international perspective is useless. Israel has been breaching security council resolutions for the last 60 years and nothing has come of it.” So, it’s time for the UN to change its ways with Israel, with US and EU backing, to force change.
“And please spare us the talk of American “founding values” they had nothing to do with what you listed, America was born out of settler colonialism and privileging of one group over all others, similarly to Israel. I’m sure the natives appreciated the founding values of the colonists as they suffered genocide.”
America certainly began as a colonial enterprise, and heinous crimes were committed against Native Americans, African Americans, and other minorities, yet the Union born out of the American revolution bore all the seeds that led America to what it is today, including slave-owner Jefferson’s universalism to justify the colonists break from their Empire, “all men were created equal,” later invoked by Lincoln and Martin Luther King, Jr., to justify correcting historical injustice, including slave-owner Madison’s “more perfect Union” perpetual aspiration, to have a form of government designed to check abuses, and incubate improvements. These values have served America well, and illuminated the path from where we began to where we are – still not perfect, but a progressive pathway nonetheless.
The crimes committed in 1948 are similar. They are now history, they cannot be undone. The adults involved are all dead or in their dotage. Those born since are entitled to justice in our time, are obligated to provide justice in our time. International law recognizes the West Bank as land for the Palestinians. Just because there are right-wing nuts in Israel willing to assassinate politicians who take international law and the rights of the Palestinians seriously doesn’t mean their views and behavior should be accepted by the rest of us, doesn’t mean we should embrace one-state and “low-grade civil war,” meaning rock-throwers against tanks and AK 47s who continue to systematically displace and ethnically cleanse, as the inevitable future in which the situation never improves. Our founding values led America from race-based slavery and ethnic cleansing to what we have today (still not perfect), and can show the way forward in the Middle East. They are in stark contrast with Neocon values, clashes of civilizations, Islamophobia, religious-state dreams, messianic dreams, war as cover for ethnic cleansing. The one-state solution Friedman speaks of is not justice. It is giving up in the face of right-wing Israeli intransigence, which will only get worse until it is stopped by the international community.
Absolutely and well said. I have been following this for 3 decades and have seen it transition with malicious propaganda and wars to cause chaos! Even some Israelis point this out, but this doesn’t get traction in the MSM.
Annie — you say I’m wrong about the gun lobby and pharmaceutical industry, while ignoring the rest of what I said; that those groups are routinely mentioned negatively in Washington, never the Israel lobby. So how am I wrong?
Yup, and these are just the crusaders latest tools! It goes on!
yeah of course you don’t get it rugal, that is because you can’t hear yourself the way others hear you. you blithely claim (scroll up) “More interesting though, is how most of the support for Bernie and his policies are coming from Mizrahim Jews ” , as well as claiming “Ashkenazim .. hoping for Hillary to win “, and then pile on loads of pontification (which is your specialty) w/ NO caveats what so ever. no, in my opinion, or i have a theory, or source or anything. merely a launching off pad for more unsourced rug-theory.
i inquire and you admit it’s your “personal perspective” and load us up w/more unsourced pontification – (including, of course, your obsession “status in White Supremacist” which you segue into EVERYTHING) i call you out on it and you lecture me on ‘snarking’?
you deem to speak on “exactly what is going on within the minds of the Mizrahim Jews” as if they all think in a pack.
well, i can do that too rugal. i don’t need to source anything i say. i find it excruciatingly interesting how you routinely beat your wife. and i know exactly what is going on within the mind of someone such as yourself. and how do i know this? based on my interactions with many of my colleagues and politically minded friends in social media; a personal perspective on the issue.
Yes, that discredited him. Friedman has gotta’ write that stuff in to appease his masters. Israel has not given up on attempting to destroy any future relations between Iran and the west.
But just as he has evolved on the farce of a two state construct, the Friedmas of the world will also evolve on Iran.
Meanwhile Israel and KSA become closer and closer as both of these states, created under the last gasps of Imperial Britain, decend each into their own abyss.
It seems there is great nostalgia for the ghettos in Europe by the Israelis!
Annie Robbins: …still have no idea what you are referencing
The “Ashkenazi knight” affair, I presume.
Marco, amigo mio, I watched your speeches, and I decided that you don´t know anything that would qualify you for the presidency. You repeat the same sentences, like a doll that has a string to pull to make it quack, and your face doesn´t reflect any knowledge of the subject you are uttering. Gov. Christie was right, just to learn a few sentences and repeat them over and over does not qualify one for the highest office in the country. Give up, go home and make another baby, the country needs taypayer, I pity all those who want you to be our president.
You are a zionist puppet, you visited Israel to get final instruction on how to betray your country, the USA, and you cannot be trusted.
there are two issues in Washington: tiny, criminal, apartheid Israel, and everything else.
the gun lobby does’t have that power ….. the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t have that power …. Only Israel.
you are so wrong. the gun lobby almost always gets whatever they want, so does the pharmaceutical! powerful lobbies almost always get whatever they want regardless what the majority of the people want.
i’ll try to get back to your so called ‘lazy comment’ in the context of the argument in another comment. it made sense to me although i don’t agree w/the main conclusion of the article (see headline).
that seems logical yoni.
where were Adam and Phil?
Letting her twist.
that’s crazy. neither adam or phil have any obligation to take a public stance over this scandal — especially since it’s likely neither of them read her book. this idea, that either jvp, end the occupation, or any other group can swing down a gavel on a someone and the rest of us are obligated to line up on one side or another to condemn or not condemn is a false narrative and implies some acknowledgment of a recognized authority. there is no outside authority MW recognizes wrt what we publish. it’s perfectly acceptable to stand on the sidelines and watch a mud fight if you do not think your opinion warrants publication. there could have been things in the complaint they agreed with but didn’t think it rose to the level of a public condemnation, or not, who knows! or any variety of things. we were under a lot of pressure to cover the whole affair but MW is not required to cover anything none of us feel like writing about. had adam or phil had anything they wanted to say about it, they would have, but they didn’t. there’s no “obligation of the tribe” happening here as far as i know. instead they published the 2 submissions they received and provided a forum for people to discuss it — since so many people wanted something on MW about it.
and where were you? did you write about it and send in a submission? no you didn’t or else it would have been published along with the 2 others. did you allow her to twist in the wind by cowardly not even sending in a submission? it would be absurd to accuse you of that.
Honestly, I did not understand Keith’s reference, it was Jewish in nature, something about someone riding to the rescue,
well his archives are there as are mine. i just placed “keith” in mine, glanced through them quickly and still have no idea what you are referencing. but it’s irrelevant, it’s logical after years of commenting people are going to differ on views and argue their own side which i always do vigorously. keith is not someone whose views glaringly stand out to me although we probably differ and agree on many ideas. whatever.
EDIT: while i am completely cognizant of the fact many many people continue to be obsessed with what happened to alison weir, i do not share this obsession. hardly a day goes by without someone inserting her name into one of the threads, either someone demeaning her or harassing the site we didn’t do more. this effort to continually place this scandal in the center of attention, daily, especially in comment section that have nothing to do with alison weir is taxing. we have a thread to discuss alison weir. any further comment you may have on it or her — either in response to this comment — either regarding me, phil or adam, take it over there. not just today, but in the future too. or start your own blog to discuss it. i spent days and days and days moderating that thread, i said everything i had to say regarding my opinion and answered as best i could this SAME complaint regarding phil and adam. i won’t be hosting another discussion, again, on this thread. there are over a thousand comments on that thread, do a search for mine for further responses because it’s extremely redundant having to repeat myself over and over and over again regarding the very same criticisms.
Jewish studies scholars that investigate German Jews in the modern period refer to degrees of assimilation, of acculturation, and of disassimilation.
Annie has a valid point, there are degrees of assimilation. Your point, not so much, I don’t think.
Phil’s original line: ““The bottom line here is that Jews in the power structure are by and large assimilated Jews, and so no one in the media elites has a problem with that.”
For starters, it’s a real lazy sentence. In fact, not even sure what either clause (?) means.
But let’s cut to the chase: there are two issues in Washington: tiny, criminal, apartheid Israel, and everything else. The Vatican doesn’t have that power (abortions are still obtainable, in places) , seniors don’t have that power (no cost of living increase for them; billions more for Israel) the gun lobby does’t have that power (people mention the gun lobby), the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t have that power (they, at least, get questioned). Only Israel.
And — as I understand the word — that simply would not be the case if “Jews in the power structure are by and large assimilated.”
(And if Evangelical Christians were to disappear overnight, the Jewish lobby wouldn’t lose an iota of its power.)
“More interesting though, is how you routinely beat your wife. – Annie
The problem here is that the pro-Israel people are very plugged into the MSM, so their version of events always takes precedent. Mr. Segal is a typical example. His terror network is always referred to as the “Jewish underground,” not the “Jewish Terror Network.” Why? Because that is what the Israeli media called them and it got repeated by their supporters abroad till everyone was calling them that. Israeli government terminology always takes precedent as “fact.” Also embarrassing or bad behavior by Israeli Jews is downplayed as an “aberration” and is rarely repeated. Think about how many times you have heard about the “underground” in the media, now think about how many times you heard about Palestinians “dancing on the rooftops,” or “passing out candy” after a terror attack. It doesn’t matter that those things never happened because people like the Dersh make sure to spread them far and wide. And since they get to be on TV most of the time the truth gets buried. That’s why we need to keep plugging away at them.
On a related note, Richard Silverstein tweeted this yesterday:
Boston’s msg to Muslims: if you want to live here, don’t die coz we won’t let u be buried. link to buff.ly
It reminded me of this:
“About one half mile from Lengnau, in the direction of Endingen, is the old Jewish cemetery. It is recognized by a cluster of trees, on the right side of the road, and is surrounded by a stone wall. During the first years of settlement in Lengnau, the Jews were forbidden to bury their dead in Switzerland. They had to travel north to the Rhine River, and bury their dead on an island in the middle of the river, known as Juden Insle, Jews’ Island.” (Israelowitz, Oscar. Guide to Jewish Europe. Brooklyn, NY: Israelowitz Publishing, 1995, p. 322)
You are right JustJessetr, I rarely have a chance to do it here by virtue of the topics discussed here. I just wanted to say that is how I feel and I do express it in other fora when I have the chance. I should also be more modest speaking for others here. It took me a long while to see your comment so I am just responding now.