100 Most Recent Comments
A beautiful piece. I’d like to meditate on this sentence:
“This global dehumanising and oppressive machine that violates us constantly is a threat to all those who are more privileged, even if being locked in their comfort zones doesn’t allow them to see it.”
Indeed. Through export of the physical instruments that it uses to violate you. Through the training of police forces in other countries. Through the bullying tone of its ubiquitous propaganda.
And why do people lock themselves in their comfort zones if not out of a deep fear of the machine and the harm it could do them?
Maybe zionism has only revealed it’s practioners and true believer’s real selves.
Thank you for reporting on this, both the good and the bad. As for the bad, it it better to know the reality than to be ignorant of reality. As for the good, it is heartening to know that there are people with compassion and concern for others.
Looks like the zionists think that the term “semites” are exclusively theirs, just like the land, water, and other resources. Entitlement and arrogance.
“I think that it’s in the best interest of the Palestinians to end the conflict with Israel and to strike a deal.”
Undoubtedly you do.
By that logic, Jackdaw, Wallenberg was a loser. He should have let the Nazis kill those Hungarian Jews.
Deep down zionists like you fear that the Palestinians will do to Israeli Jews what Israeli Jews now do to Palestinians. But the Palestinians are not paranoid like you are.
Before 1945, Palestinian Jews and Palestinians were getting along pretty well if not very well. There was real friendship between the two cultures, but that little paradise had to be destroyed by the Zionists so they could take it all for themselves, using a book they claimed their invented God inspired, and stealing a land the same God promised them, in that book, where it was claimed that it was their own God, and nobody else’s.
IObit Uninstaller Serial Key
The key point is that the Zionists had no land of their own. They had to choose a site that was easy to seize and they had to do something about the people living there. And it was too much for them. So they failed. Now Israel is a Jewish state running Cossack law. It is a real pity the Bal Shem Tov can’t see it. If he and Hillel came on a tour they would find it to be hilarious.
This is so badly written I cannot make sense of who said what. The hideous mangling of every direct quote denies the people reported upon the chance to speak for themselves.
The overall slant of the comments on the WP website is heartening, at least when you select for “most liked”. Someone with the handle “fxowen” is particularly impressive, as he or she posts the exactly appropriate rebuttal to standard hasbara lines from other commenters. I wonder how long it’ll take before the professional hasbara army moves in and spoils the WP comments sections for everyone.
“the immigrants shouldn’t have come to Palestine, that they had no right to found a Jewish state? That seems to be the point of so many articles and comments on this website,”
It is the point because it is true, and only by acknowledging that truth can the steps to justice be taken.
“and the unspoken message is that it must all be undone.”
Not from most of us. Most of us do not envisage all the Jews leaving Israel. Our message is that Israel needs to change, so as to stop persecuting Palestinians, give full rights to all Palestinians, and make as just a reparation for past wrongs as is possible.
“I think that it’s in the best interest of the Palestinians to end the conflict with Israel…”
Ending a conflict requires all parties to agree to end it, or for all but one of the opposing parties to be completely annihilated. Israel seems to prefer the second alternative. The seizure of land, of houses, the destruction, and the ethnic cleansing have not stopped. Israel is continuing the conflict.
“and to strike a deal.”
The Palestinians tried that. When they agreed to the Oslo accords, they bent over backwards to accommodate Israel. But Israel broke the agreement.
Right now, it seems that the only deal Israel would keep is “Give us everything and go away, and we might let you live. Until we decide we want the place you have moved to, of course.”
Do you have any ideas about what sort of deal the Palestinians could make?
“Nonetheless, since we have these evil “hate speech” laws imposed on us, it might be worthwhile to use them.”
Yes indeed. And here’s my naivete at it again, but perhaps if enough people call out dershowitz, jacobs, boteach, posner, dannon, haley, and the putrid tools on facebook routinely posting ‘death to arabs’ for starters. WTF hasn’t facebook banned/blocked these idiots, be they muslim, christian or jew from using facebook when the post death threats? WTF does it take anyway, pictures of the crime scene?
I agree! Chuckles the clown and Nancy the nudge need an extreme wake up call as Schmuel Rosner needs to be tarred and feathered for incitement.
Yep, I know I’m naive. There are laws in place but the only people they are routinely used against are the poor, people of color and people with the wrong religious affiliation.
Before Netanyahu there was Ariel «charogne» Sharon, infamous for the Sabra and Shatila Massacres of some 3,500 Palestinians and Lebanese civilians, another crime against humanity for Israel.
But then there are the Peleds, Matti, heroic IDF General who later on became champion of Palestinian rights, and now his son Miko whose book and public speeches in the USA are filled with accusations against Israel’s genocide, apartheid, murderous hidden policies.
James Michie – The vast majority of the Israelis are native-born. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with being an immigrant, and there are plenty of immigrants in Israel. But I can’t imagine how you conclude that the majority of Israelis are immigrants.
There are no “Semites”. There is a family of languages which are called Semitic languages (this includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, Maltese and Aramaic). “Semitic people” is racist nonsense.
Antisemitism is a 19th century term which refers to the hatred of Jews. The term is strange (there is no such thing as “semitism”, so “antisemitism” is really a weird choice of words) – but this is the term that has been in use since 1879 to describe animosity to the Jews.
Is anti-Israel activism an expression of antisemitism? No, not necessarily, but in some cases it can be. The antisemites hate Jews of their imagination. They might strike out at real Jews (as in the case of Nazism), but the motivation to do so is a result of their totally imagined grievances. Sometimes (even quite often), you can hear a long list of imaginary grievances against Israel which serve as the basis of a deep and obsessive hatred for Israel. In such a case, the anti-Israel animosity is indeed a phenomenon very similar to classical antisemitism.
are you really that dumb? You don’t understand that PW is praying for, working for and dedicated to causing massive dissension and splits between assorted groups of US Jews?
“One may even boycott Israel without stepping into anti-Semitism if it’s clear that the tactic aims to pressure Israel to change its policies,”
“(I personally do not support boycotting Israel, partly because so much of the movement is rife with anti-Semitic undertones.)”
Since the rabbi has a purely personal problem with the rifeness of BDS’ undertones not any other part of BDS, then it’s ok for others to endorse BDS if their motives are pure.
This icon of liberal Zionist “tikkun clam” handwringing just has to have her Israel cake and eat it too. BDS is ok and not ok; Israel is ok and not ok; Palestinians are ok and not ok.
Meanwhile, let’s target some Arabs with “anti-Semitism.”
Ossinev – Identity is a tricky issue. It’s totally abstract, and out of our control. So there are millions of Jews who “think that they are a people entitled to statehood”. It doesn’t make any difference if you believe that this should or shouldn’t include converts. What you think that someone else’s identity should be is really irrelevant. Peoplehood identities are born in the collective consciousness of human beings everywhere, and no one is asking for your approval (and no one needs to pass a DNA test or present a pedigree).
Boycotting the Zionist entity is eminently reasonable. It’s also highly reasonable for a reader to want to discuss how dispensations for journalism/reporting are being used.
“As a teenager endlessly read about WWII. I would sob uncontrollably often calling out “why was it that people did not respond” to the millions of Jews, Poles etc etc were being murdered by the Hitler killing machine. ”
That’s odd. The things I read about WW2 made it clear that people did respond, and gave detailed descriptions of the responses in the form of total war against the Hitler killing machine and resistance movements in the occupied areas.
As far as I can tell (and I have not made a study of the laws in the various jurisdictions) accusation is sufficient for conviction, and truth is no defence.
I’m no lawyer but just enough of one to be able to say that you’re oversimplifying (as you are said to do to anything re Zionism), as a result of which you don’t “have a case”: see, a necessary condition for indictment and conviction is the relative racial status of accuser and accused.
Sharansky should never have been rescued frop the Soviet Union. The Soviets must have figured out that he was an ass hole.
Maybe one of the saddest things is what kind of people Zionism turns people into.
In the case of the US, war is part of the economic structure.
Brewer – It’s a bit like the story about the “King’s New Clothes” where everyone praises the king for his wonderful new outfit, and some little boy has the nerve to spoil the game, stating what is obvious to everyone: “The king is naked”. Sorry, but it’s absolutely pointless to try and convince me that “these rights remain invisible to [me]”. There are those who don’t see the conflict as you do, but that shouldn’t be interpreted as invisibility.
What is the next step? Should we moan and groan again and again that the immigrants shouldn’t have come to Palestine, that they had no right to found a Jewish state? That seems to be the point of so many articles and comments on this website, and the unspoken message is that it must all be undone.
I think that it’s in the best interest of the Palestinians to end the conflict with Israel and to strike a deal. Moreover, people who care about the Palestinians should encourage them to seek an end of conflict. Once a year, a community can gather together and mourn their defeat – and all those who identify with them can join them in some solemn ceremony. The rest of the year should deal with solutions. The endless repetition of victimhood on a daily basis, the constant inculcation of the idea that all of this shouldn’t have happened and the figment of the imagination that the most talked-about international issue is “invisible” are really a pathetic waste of time. Strangely, for the sake of advancing the anti-Israel agenda, so many people here would prefer to keep the conflict going, even if it means maintaining the plight of the Palestinians.
Ironically, I’m the only one here with a pro-Palestinian agenda. I really wish them the very best. I’d like to see them ending their conflict.
May I remind commenters here about another attempt previously, and it ended when boats were deliberately damaged by some vicious elements. They’d better make sure these boats are secured.
“A Swedish ship due to join an upcoming Gaza-bound aid flotilla has been sabotaged in the Greek port of Piraeus, organisers say.
In a statement, they said “hostile divers had destroyed the propeller house and cut the propeller shaft” of the vessel Juliano on Monday.
The ship is part of the 10-vessel Freedom Flotilla II that is expected to set sail from Greece and elsewhere for the Gaza Strip in the coming days in a bid to break Israel’s blockade of the Palestinian territory.”
Well said Annie. War is no different to a fight in the school yard or on the street. At the end the problem that caused the fight is still there and needs resolving. Israel refuses to resolve the problem by negating to allow resolution. It wants to dictate.
” How isn’t your going, buying food, paying for lodging, Western Jew in Israel, hanging out in hotel lobbies, supporting Israel …”?
He doesn’t tip while he’s there.
Marr rejected participation of Jewish and other non-German minorities as members, “unless they prove that they are anxious to develop within themselves a Christian-German spirit” (a decision of the “Burschenschaft Congress of 1818”). While they were opposed to the participation of Jews in their movement, like Heinrich von Treitschke later, they did allow the possibility of the Jewish (and other) minorities to participate in the German state if they were to abandon all signs of ethnic and religious distinctiveness and assimilate into the German Volk.
You are right, but In common Western parlance, since the latter part of the 19th Century in Germany, at least, “anti-Semitism” is exclusively applied to Jews–if memory serves, this unique view was originated by a German Gentile man named Marr.
Scott Roth’s statement was the most powerful of all.
Gee, sounds like a revised version of the Merchant of Venice. (Please don’t ban me)
“One of my favourite examples is the Mughal Empire under Aurangzeb.”
Ethno-religious state or secular state:
The worst anti-semites are the Israeli’s themselves. Palestinians are semites so ,when viewed from that stand point Israeli’s start looking particularly silly as do American Pro Israeli politicians supporting Israel’s actions and anti-semitic behaviour.
As I understand it Arabs are semites also. On that basis given Israeli’s preoccupation with anti-semitism and all its manifestation ,why then, have they persisted in anti semitic acts against Palestinians for decades. Surely Israeli’s are being far too precious on this anti semitic bandwagon when they are ,for ALL to see ,the worst offenders.
Gamal, are you suggesting that we should learn a bit about the topic before we form rigid opinions? That’s not the done thing, you know.
I can only imagine how the Establishment Jews are trying to abort the case against Harvey Weinstein. Looks like they are failing thanks to the Me Too movement. We need one of those to put the klieg lights on Sheldon Adelson, for one. I don’t see any influential takers, do you?
Nonetheless, since we have these evil “hate speech” laws imposed on us, it might be worthwhile to use them.
When someone says “Arabs/Palestinians/MW contributors/BDS supporters are anti-Semites”, accuse that someone of hate speech.
As far as I can tell (and I have not made a study of the laws in the various jurisdictions) accusation is sufficient for conviction, and truth is no defence. This latter point is important for those jurisdictions in which any criticism of Israel is officially deemed to be anti-Semitism.
“I wish the mainstream media would occasionally remind us of what was in fact the worst mass slaughter of humans in modern history.”
Misterioso, how many Western newspapers, TV stations, film studios, and politicians do the Congolese own? Precious few.
What political advantage can be gained from telling this story? Not a lot.
So don’t expect the MM to mention it.
But then the letdown. When you realize that he said ““…Bernie Sanders is virtually alone in his condemnation of Israeli actions” and yes, the rah-rah supporter of all earlier Gaza massacres is the only politician who is making some insincere, warmongering but conscience-soothing noises. That’s what it means to be living in the US.
I value the opinion of people who know their subject…more than I do those who parrot others. Of course it is valuable for Phil to go there as often as he feels necessary. Geez!
Dude, where is a reasonable sentence in your comment?
“as envisioned here…not envisioned…not envisioned”
“Your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions.” Joel 2:28
“Thank you for confirming – in an unusually clear and concise paragraph! – that your vision of a modus vivendi does not include justice, accountability or equality.”
And, of course “Yonah” assumes that Israel will always have the power to do this. That’s the “high” he gets from all the pilpuls he takes, the euphoric feeling that Zionism has it all under control.
I enjoyed watching it too. In fact I watched it a few times. Yes, she did look like she did not know how to react, and a few more like this would be good for her. She was certainly taken by surprise. Hope there are more surprises planned for them, even Charles Schumer.
“You have simply no perception of the underlining racist barbarism in what you are saying”
Why, of course he doesn’t! No trauma ‘long “Jackdaw”! Those kind perceptions can only arise from the self-hatred or internalized persecution which makes you forget who you are, and what you deserve!
MARNIE- “People like Alan Dershowitz and ‘rabbi’ schmuely b. should be made examples of and sued for defamation at least….”
With all due respect, I think you have a rather naive view of our (or any) legal system. Our legal system primarily responds to power, not to justice. There is no way that Alan Dershowitz will ever be held to account. There is no way the CIA will ever be held to account. The US didn’t become an empire by scrupulously adhering to international law, or any law, or common decency, or Christian morality, etc. The legal system is primarily intended to safeguard existing power relations and to create the illusion that these power relations are fair and objectively rational rather than arbitrary and under elite control.
Some don’t know. Others know but don’t care.
Question for Phil Weiss: why do you go to Israel so much? Do you consider it your homeland? I thought that nonsense was derided here; is it not? Am I wrong? Then why do you go — because you can? Tribal booster shot? How isn’t your going, buying food, paying for lodging, Western Jew in Israel, hanging out in hotel lobbies, supporting Israel no less than the Philadelphia orchestra?
I don’t see why Palestinians should be expected to have any respect for the Star of David given how Israel abuses it.
Here’s a story starring Gwyneth Paltrow as Gaza and Weinstein as Israel (how perfect). . Unfortunately there is no Brad Pitt for Gaza at the moment.
“I told him right away and I was very shaken by the whole thing,” said Paltrow. “We were at the opening of Hamlet on Broadway. Harvey was there and Brad Pitt – it was like the equivalent of throwing him against the wall, energetically.”
“He said, ‘If you ever make her feel uncomfortable again, I’ll kill you.’ Or something like that. It was so fantastic. He leveraged his fame and power to protect me at a time when I didn’t have fame or power yet.”
Paltrow first accused Weinstein of sexual harassment in the New York Times, where she said that after the alleged incident, he rang her and told her not to speak to anyone else about it. “I thought he was going to fire me,” she said. “He screamed at me for a long time. It was brutal.””
The amount of attention given to Jewish opinion on Mondoweiss is disproportionate to its importance, but I suppose that is the purpose of the site. I would like to see some analysis of the response to the Gaza atrocities among Christian Zionists, who are at least as important as the Jewish kind — certainly there are many more of them. I suspect that their relative importance as a base of support for Israel is growing, because in contrast to Jewish Zionists, many of whom are for Israel but against Netanyahu and the Israeli ‘right’, Christian Zionists are aligned overwhelmingly with the most extreme Israelis (especially ideological settlers). Still, even they must surely find the latest events hard to swallow — or are they even aware of them?
“…was the Israeli commando attack on the Turkish Mavi Marmara in 2010, in which 10 activists were killed by the Israeli soldiers in international waters.”
Executed. Including Furkan Dogan. American. Shot four times to the head while prone on the deck of the ship. His name should be as common as Rachel Corrie’s, whose name should be as common as Anne Frank’s. But…..
I think we have to set his letter to Nehru in 47, where he gives a very strong impression of being a Zionist – though there are clauses which almost give him a get out, because he asserts that Arab interests could be protected – against his reported statement to A. Lilienthal in 52 that he had never been a Zionist. There was a strong element of ambivalence which reflected a desire to do good to all but which in the end isn’t that wonderful. The pattern of giving much public encouragement to the Z cause whilst expressing much reservation about Begin then, Netanyahu now, is a rather regrettable one in the intellectual class, Jewish and other.
Just watched episode 6 of the Handmaid’s Tale. Nikki Haley is Serena Joy.
“These protestors have pitifully empty lives. Empty lives of their own design”
You have simply no perception of the underlining racist barbarism in what you are saying.
The majority of Jewish Israeli’s suffer from a “national psychosis” of delusion and denial in regard to Israel’s war crimes. Most American’s suffer from the same “national psychosis” when it comes to acknowledging the hundreds of thousands of people that our military has been fully or partially responsible for killing, injuring turning into refugees in Iraq, Libya, Syria.
U.S. media surely helps the majority of Americans keep their heads up where the sun does not shine.
As a teenager endlessly read about WWII. I would sob uncontrollably often calling out “why was it that people did not respond” to the millions of Jews, Poles etc etc were being murdered by the Hitler killing machine. During Vietnam many of us were outraged by the killing of innocent people our media reported about some of the atrocities. Now our media is basically silent about the result of U.S. military interventions.
Yes both Israel and the U.S. are guilty of killing innocent people. Deeply disturbing..
There would be no need of a third party for this policy. Nothing stops Israel from imposing a less stringent and less gratuitously cruel blockade. Nothing stops its American supporters from spending more time pushing for this, rather than tone policing Israel’s critics.
No great consolation for the Palestinians who have to put up with this Nazi/Stalinist/Fascist oppression on a 24/7 basis but there are still well over 6 million Palestinian Arabs ( inc in Israel ) between the river and the sea and the Zios must be getting desperate. The plan after all back in 1881 was for all of these to be”disappeared” to clear the way for total colonisation. It`s 2018 and there are the roughly same numbers of Arabs as Israeli Jews in Eretz Israel ( and that includes the non white “Untouchable” Jews).
What oh what can a poor Zio do. Mass round up and concentration camps? The beggars would resist , F16s and F35s wouldn`t help, it would be seriously costly (and the US couldn`t possibly be persuaded to pay the cost) and at the end of it all they would still physically be in Ertez Israel with the ongoing costs ( think eg of the need for thousands of moral snipers).. Mass Genocide ? Even the US wouldn`t condone that and besides the indispensable “eternal victim” status would be washed down the plug hole and the Zios would no longer have anything really to whinge and whine about.
There’s an article by Ronni Shaked in Ynet News for April 9, which seems like a long time ago in these things, called ‘For now, the Palestinians are winning the battle for public opinion’ but it doesn’t cite any opinion polls and is very like others, going back many years, to the same effect. The Great Change keeps on being announced by people who can’t believe it’s not happening, since there is every reason for it to happen in a rational world. You can certainly see a change, perhaps even a great change, in the Comment Sections. But without political leadership wider public interest fades. And we are still locked in the world where voting by politicians for Israel recycled money and favours – by a process which surely isn’t just donations by individuals – to the politicians themselves and perhaps even more importantly in a world where critique of Israel and its methods is always considered to be anti-Semitism.
Kafka speaks. He knows all about empty lives.
You are so right. Your comment is depraved. And stupid. To avoid ambiguity next time, I suggest you make it clear that you are replying to an earlier comment.
I think that the key point is that Zionism brooks no criticism. It is a paranoid system. Instead, critics are slurred with the tag of anti Semitism. This is wrong. It is also destabilising over the medium term. Constructive criticism helps organisations to grow healthily.
Zionism is a deeply flawed ideology. By covering this up the people who could help to reform it and secure its future are shunned. What ends up happening is that thugs with a sense of impunity take over. In history such systems have always collapsed.
One of my favourite examples is the Mughal Empire under Aurangzeb.
«Einstein was still a Zionist.»
I don’t think he ever was a ZIONIST!
His co-signed letter disproves your hasbara type statement.
Just read its beginning again, below, as he associates Nazi and Fascist parties of newly created Isreal to conservative Zionist elements in the United States.
If Einstein has reasons to disagree with Zionist elements in the United States it is because of the Zionist fascist, Nazi like parties, terrorist, and right-wing, chauvinist organization in Israel.
EXCERPTS FOR YOU TO READ AND UNDERSTAND, AGAIN. Unless your Hasbara little Red Book tells you to BLINDLY/PURPOSEDLY associate Einstein to Zionism…
ADDRESS AND EXCERPTS OF THE SAID LETTER BELOW:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed. A letter to The New York Times. Saturday December 4, 1948 by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al.
New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed. A letter to The New York Times, published in the “Books” section (Page 12) of Saturday December 4, 1948
by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al.
Source: Text from original microfilm
TO THE EDITORS OF NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
“Free flow- as envisioned here is designed to maximize freedom for Gaza Palestinians while limiting dangers to israel’s security”
Sorry Yonah sounds like the same old same old with a splash of Hasbara emulsion.
NB Definition of free:
NB Definition of Discrimination:
NB Definition of Concentration Camp:
Back to your “modus vivendi” – any thoughts about the sewage problem which I mentioned and/ or the imminent “uninhabitable” status of Gaza:
Misterioso – I haven’t yet met any “indigenous Palestinian habitants” who have been living in the country for 15,000 years.
I sometimes wonder why anyone is busy with the span of time that the united kingdom (of Israel) existed. You claim that it’s just 80 years. You suggested that I learn Arabic, however you are a bit late with this advice. I studied Arabic many, many years ago, and I read Arabic really quite fine. I imagine that you don’t, because in all the literature published in Arabic, the claim is that the kingdom lasted only 70 years. The trend today in research is that there never was a united kingdom. There was a Kingdom of Israel and a Kingdom of Judah, both of which lasted for a few centuries during the first half of the last millenium BC.
Since you find it important to mention the Kingdom of Israel of antiquity, I couldn’t help but notice that you didn’t mention the Kingdom of Palestine (united or otherwise) and how long it lasted. Is there any literature about it? Who founded it?
Yes, I have heard the rumors that the Israelis are leaving the country in massive numbers. This phenomenon has been going on for about a century. The standard joke is that “the last one out is kindly requested to turn the lights out at the Ben-Gurion Airport”. There are only some 6.5 millions Jews still left in the country (down from some 60,000 in 1920), so indeed the situation is quite grim.
Annie Robbins – It’s very interesting to hear your perspective that the Palestinians “have yet to be defeated”. I read a lot of anti-Israel websites and publications, and it’s so common to read the claim that the refugees have the right of return based on the logic that after the end of hostilities refugees must be allowed to return to their former homes. Now, suddenly, I learn from you that it’s not over until it’s over.
Obviously the Palestinians are a defeated people. Their objective was to stop the immigration of Jews to Palestine. The intention was to prevent the founding of the Jewish state. They failed in these efforts. However, if you insist that this is not defeat (i.e. the struggle goes on), then let’s agree on the obvious that the conflict is not over. The whole claim of the “right of return” is therefore false – and the refugees will have to wait patiently until the end of hostilities. Actually, that is the essence of the Oslo Agreement (the solution to the refugee problem is an end-of-conflict issue).
|| Yonah Fredman: … Those who leave Gaza would be allowed to return without limitation.
Visiting Israel is not envisioned. … ||
Which parts of non-Gaza Palestine does your vision permit the Palestinians of Prison Gaza to visit freely?
|| Jackdaw: We all have one life to live. One shot. That’s it. … ||
Yup, we all have one life to live. One shot from an Israeli sniper’s rifle. That’s it.
|| … These protestors have pitifully empty lives. Empty lives of their own design. ||
Thankfully they don’t have the disturbingly hateful and immoral lives of Zionists. Hateful and immoral lives of their own design.
If Nathan lives in Israel and is relatively young, he would do well to learn Arabic
Bah. Did the Anglo–and-such invaders bother to learn Cherokee or Lakota? It was so much easier to exterminate all.
They are hesitant to lose their place in the tribal Jewish community which, for most of these troubled souls, is all they’ve ever known. Faced with the choice of being launched into a full-blown identity crisis or simply looking the other way, they are choosing the ‘easier’ way out. Unfortunately, by doing so, they are committing themselves to continuing, unresolved, inner turmoil over this most basic of personal issues. Their souls are at stake but, I believe, most don’t even realize it.
(Note: I am not a Jew, but have witnessed this inner conflict in my two Jewish stepchildren over the past 20 years I have been married. Fortunately, my wife has since freed herself from this bondage, or we would not have survived together this long).
Free flow- as envisioned here is designed to maximize freedom for Gaza Palestinians while limiting dangers to israel’s security.
Fishing rights would thus be far freer. (I cannot specify more than that.)
Those who leave Gaza would be allowed to return without limitation.
Visiting Israel is not envisioned.
An airport, unless imports are controlled by a 3rd power, is not envisioned.
Yes, Annie Robbins, the world was quite focused on on the plight of the Palestinians in 1975 when “Palestinians: The Invisible Victims” was published. Mr Arafat made his very famous appearance at the UN in 1974. You might want to read this speech. He tells the General Assembly that there are other “causes labouring under imperialism and aggression” besides the Palestinian cause. And then he tells the world: “I call upon the General Assembly urgently to give their just causes the same full attention the General Assembly has so rightly given to our cause”. Yes, Mr Arafat is praising the UN for having given its full attention to his cause, and he is criticizing the UN for not having given its full attention for other causes. So, while Mr Zogby claims that the Palestinians are invisible victims, it turns out that Mr Arafat doesn’t agree.
People of the cloth, like Rabbi Jacobs, particularly rile me when they they take blatantly immoral positions like this. They strike out on two counts – against their religion and against humanity. To me, they are more despicable than the hard right Zionists who, at least, are not hypocrites, as is Ms. Jacobs.
It is good to know that i am not the only one who doesnot find Bernie stance on Palestine that impressive.
We all have one life to live. One shot. That’s it.
These protestors have pitifully empty lives. Empty lives of their own design.
PETER IN SF- “I felt like following up to ask him if both he and his questioner were indulging in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that U.S. policy towards Israel is controlled by Jews, and in particular by Jewish billionaires who are buying influence.”
Would I be indulging in an anti-corporate conspiracy theory to suggest that corporations use lobbyists and campaign contributions and think tanks, etc, to try and influence US domestic and foreign policy? This is capitalism for cry sakes.
Yet, it goes beyond this. We have, of late, experienced what can only be described as the Zionization of imperial foreign policy where the neocons have become mainstream. Total warmongering and complete support for Israel is the new normal.
“[P]alestinians have yet to be defeated. or haven’t you noticed.”
While throughout history their country has known many invaders and occupiers, as recent DNA evidence conclusively attests, its indigenous Palestinian habitants have lived there continuously for about 15,000 years.
As is well know, Netanyahu’s greatest fear is that the Zionist occupation will be one of the shortest. He is obsessed with the worry that it will not last more than 80 years, i.e., the brief, less than a blip, life span of the biblical United Kingdom of Israel.
Meanwhile, as is well documented, Jewish immigration to Israel is plummeting and emigration is soaring. Indeed, Palestinians, who have the world’s highest fertility rate, already outnumber Jews between the River and the Sea.
If Nathan lives in Israel and is relatively young, he would do well to learn Arabic.
Rosner used to write for the Jerusalem post. He is a smart ass right winger who thinks settlers are justified. He is a symptom of what is wrong in visible Judaism.
MISTERIOSO- “Written by Adam Hochschild and published in 1998, “King Leopold’s Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror and Heroism in Colonial Africa,” provides an excellent source to learn about King Leopold II and his monstrous crimes against humanity.”
True enough, but let us not focus the blame entirely upon King Leopold. What Leopold did was more-or-less within the norms of European behavior towards Third World peoples albeit on a somewhat larger scale. Europe has a long and bloody history of mass murder. In addition to “Kings Leopold’s Ghost,” I would also recommend “Year 501: The Conquest Continues” by Noam Chomsky which gives a broader picture of the West’s history of mass murder and plunder, one not taught in schools. Reality may not be pleasant but it is what it is and we ignore it at our own peril.
“free flow of marketable goods out of Gaza to Israel and elsewhere. Free flow of people out of Gaza to world destinations. Third party inspections of goods brought into Gaza, with limitations to avoid a repeat of hezbollah’s rockets. Some have suggested creating man made islands where these items would be inspected. Others have suggested such a place (for inspections) can be set up on already existing territory”
At least you are having a go which does you some credit and I think it will stand you in good stead eventually in your facing up to the reality of Gaza.
1) Definition of “free flow” – eg does that mean no random shootings and killing of fishermen trying to harvest potential free flow products in Gazan waters.
2) Definition of “free flow” ” Free flow of people out of Gaza to world destinations”. Does Israel/Palestine where they come from and where their families still live count as a”world destination”
Is the free flow one way only ie will they be able to return freely.
3) The mechanics of your “free flow”. Will Gazans have their own ports/airports (latter for the world destinations of course) ?Or are you talking about these Shangri La “man made islands” where ” Third Parties ” will inspect goods ( as if Israel will ever accept such an arrangement).
I`m afraid Yonah the more you consider the mechanics the more you will realise that Israel is running the largest concentration camp in History and has absolutely no intention of giving any form of free flow to the inmates goods or otherwise.There isn`t a modus vivendi when it comes to concentration camps. The only exception that springs to mind is the Kapos system in the Third Reich.
Israel has created this concentration camp and has simply no idea what to do with the nearly 2 million (yes Yonah that`s TWO million ) inmates other than blame Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran and continue with the occasional mini genocides.
There is no Plan B such as the Utopian one you have dangled.
And with the Gaza sewage system totally kaput( remember TWO million needing toilets) and the effluent creeping up the coast towards the flesh pots on Israels Riviera Israel is effectively up s..t creek without a paddle.
Here is a careful paragraph by paragraph dismantling of the Rosner piece, way more detailed than ours.
But our point was slightly different. We took for granted that any decent person could tell that Rosner’s piece was morally awful— the question was why the NYT would publish it and three others almost as bad when they would never publish four pieces defending terror attacks on Israelis right after, say, a bus bombing that killed dozens.
Yonah, I think you see the brutality of Israel’s behavior and since everything at this blog drives you nuts, it seems to me that you would do more good making suggestions to ease the blockade to fellow Israel supporters. Proposing it here will immediately make people see the unfairness of treating Gazans as needing to be under a weapons blockade, but not Israel. Personally I would prefer stopping all weapons transfers everywhere. Anyway, your proposal would be a big step away from the current extremely cruel system but proposing it here does nothing. Maybe you do this already, but I would think you would want to be arguing for your proposal with Israelis.
As for rhetoric and emotionalism, that might be true, but emotionalism on this subject comes with the territory and you display it too. I acknowledged that maybe the criticism of Walsh should have been left out, but once again, the point of the piece is that the NYT published four essays defending the killing of Gazan protestors and it is hard to imagine them publishing a piece defending the deliberate killing of Israelis. I think that as a decent human being you know this.
|| Ampro: Natan Sharansky, chairman of the Jewish Agency, identifies the “three D’s of Anti-Semitism” as Demonization, Delegitimization, and Double-Standards. … ||
Zionists believe that the religion-based identity of Jewish grants to those who choose to hold it the “right” to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.
Like all Zionist hypocrites, Sharansky has no problem with that particular double-standard.
maybe these inciters should be introduced to the punishment only reserved for palestinians – house arrest, prison, summary execution, gee I don’t know, there’s so many to choose from.
I just posted in the comments section of the WP article:
Dr. Steven Salaita writes: On May 18, Rabbi Jill Jacobs published an essay in the Washington Post purporting to distinguish between legitimate criticism of Israel and “anti-Semitism.” In the essay, she posted two of my tweets to suggest that I am anti-Semitic [spoiler: I am not]. Since August, 2014, the Washington Post has run numerous articles similarly impugning my character. The paper has never offered me space to write in my own voice, despite numerous inquiries. I submitted an essay to the Post’s Outlook section responding to the issues raised in Jacobs’ piece, but the paper declined to run it.
His response may be found at Mondoweiss (dot net) with the title “Falsely accusing Palestinians of anti-Semitism is malicious”. WP: It would have behooved you to have published Dr. Salaita’s response and given him “equal times” as well as an opportunity to defend himself, in his own words. A little fairness might be in order here.
Why did it take so long to realize AND admit what is being inflicted on Palestinians??? Shame on this country. Shame!!!
For the record:
Speaking of holocausts, I wish the mainstream media would occasionally remind us of what was in fact the worst mass slaughter of humans in modern history. I am referring to the systematic murder of 10-12 million Congolese by “Christian” Belgian colonists during the latter part of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century when King Leopold II ruled Belgium. He was the founder and owner of what was then known as the Congo Free State. One of the first people of note to refer to this holocaust was Samuel Clemens, aka, Mark Twain.
As well as mass murder, the unspeakable horrors Belgium inflicted on the natives of the Congo, including amputations of arms below the elbow and beheadings, were prompted by pure greed and chronic racism, i.e., to force them to work like slaves in order to harvest natural rubber on rubber tree plantations, which prior to the invention of the synthetic version, was in huge demand in Europe and America to manufacture tires for the burgeoning automobile industry.
Written by Adam Hochschild and published in 1998, “King Leopold’s Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror and Heroism in Colonial Africa,” provides an excellent source to learn about King Leopold II and his monstrous crimes against humanity.
Excellent. Thank you!! Hayley is a monster.
Well, for 400 years of slavery in the usa…there was also an anti-slavery activist community. Then we had the law for the last 150 years..but also all kinds of slippery laws and law makers and judges that found work a rounds.
There were all kinds of hopeful people (like Phil) during those 550 years…and a few noteworthy activists who used forceful means.
Imo, Mondoweiss does a good job of documenting the flow of the Palestinian/Israeli molasses.
Natan Sharansky, chairman of the Jewish Agency, identifies the “three D’s of Anti-Semitism” as Demonization, Delegitimization, and Double-Standards.
Demonization, as when members of the Knesset identify the Palestinian people as “savages” and “animals”.
Delegitimization, as when Netanyahu constantly condemns Palestinian leadership as “no partner for peace”.
Double-Standards, as when Israel maintains a separate military court system for Palestinians.
of all the dumb ass commentary posted here this one has to rank w/the most depraved.
no doubt this loser’s deprivations the source.
A psychosis known as folie a deux is where a delusion is shared from one individual to another.
Israel is a case of national psychosis where almost the whole Jewish society spends most of its time in a delusion.
Since 1948 the problem has always been the same. The land was not empty. It does have a history. It does have a people.
She did have that deer in the headlights look on her face.
The costs to whom? The Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, Iranians, etc? The American taxpayers?
Rabbi Jill Jacobs obviously is a true Zionist! The true Semites living in what little remains of Palestine and Zionist Israel are the Palestinians. The vast majority of Israelis are immigrant European/U.S. Zionists, either supporting or complicit in Zionist Israel’s brutality, racism, ethnic cleansing, land theft, fascism and terrorism in what little remains of Palestine!
|| Yonah Fredman: eljay- Gaza will be solved after the west bank is solved or simultaneous with such a resolution, which obviously is not on the near horizon. until then, yes, gaza will remain a prison in terms of importation of goods. ||
Thank you for confirming – in an unusually clear and concise paragraph! – that your vision of a modus vivendi does not include justice, accountability or equality.
|| Nathan: … one should at least be able to understand that the Jews do think that they are a people entitled to statehood. … ||
Only an anti-Semite would presume to know what “the Jews” collectively think.
You made us hate you,
we didn’t want to do it
we didn’t want to do it
You made us hate you
And all the time you knew it
I guess you always knew it
You made us kill you,
we didn’t want to do it,
but you made us do it
so all we can do is shoot and cry.
I know that sucked but am pretty sure golda meir sucked more.