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Whether there is or is not Anti(-)semitism alleged or real, Israel is still in beach of International Law, UN Charter, Geneva Conventions, its own Declaration of statehood and its plea for and subsequent International recognition
“The exiles became exiles because they were fighting with the Jews. “
Another interesting Ziopoop theory. The exiles, predominantly women and children, fled the violence making it impossible for them to have been fighting with the Jews
kalithea, only my first sentence related to hops. the rest of it was for anyone/everyone who didn’t know or recall that part of the history of the iran deal. when i read the article and reference to oman i thought of it and was going to post it anyway. and i thought why not use the opportunity to rub salt in his wound at the same time. 2 birds w/one stone.
“All the comments here that proclaimed there would never be a conviction or ‘justice’ can now complain about israel not having the death penalty “
Strange. The IDF regularly assassinates Palestinians, without trial, for alleged crimes
” imagine how the victims parents will feel if the murderer were freed some years down the road in some hair brained prisoner exchange….”
A prisoner ‘exchange’. Interesting theory you have there. Israel would ‘exchange’, give the Palestinians, this murderous Israeli scum who was tried in an Israeli court and imprisoned in an Israeli gaol and the Palestinians would give Israel a Palestinian. Sure takes a f*cked up mind to work that one out. Par for the Zionist apologist course tho. Say anything no matter how moronic
“And while a parent’s grief is unimaginable i can only imagine that when they say the life+20 is not enough, they mean only death would satisfy them.”
The call for death to all Arabs by marching Israelis is well documented, regardless of whether said Arabs have actually committed any crimes
Looks like the Lying Drumpf will be the GOP candidate for President, and it will now turn nasty.
He will most probably pummel Hillary with everything he can, and everything he can lie about too, like he did to eliminate those GOP candidates running against him during the primaries.
It is amazing that despite being a proven liar, this unqualified, crude man, who has encouraged the bigots in this country to show their hatred for others very openly, has the support of so many Americans. Whatever happened to standards and having a President that the nation can be proud of? If we thought G.W. Bush was bad, Drumpf will make him look the saner one.
Hillary is going to get everything thrown at her by Drumpf, and we know she has enough baggage to give him enough to insult and lie about. This country is in for some rough times.
him that ammunition.
II find shocking that you all take seriously and give the time of day to a total hasbara Zionist shill like hop less.
I guess you mean “coaxed”. Whether it was coaxed or not, it took some guts to speak out that way (even neutral) in the zio state of America, where any criticism of Israel’s crimes, and showing any consideration for the suffering of the Palestinians, is immediately crushed by it’s agents here. Having politicians who kiss up to Israel is the norm here, and it is refreshing to hear a Jewish guy, running for President, show some compassion for the Palestinians.
yonah, this was certainly not the opinion of the judges presiding over the trial. their condemnations were quite harsh.
did you ever get a chance to read any of the transcripts? see the footnotes of perfidy link to en.wikipedia.org
The book draws heavily on transcripts from the trial, and concludes that in 1944 Rudolf Kastner deliberately withheld from the Jews in Hungary that the trains the Nazis were putting them on were taking them to death by the gas chamber, not to a fictitious resettlement city as the Nazis claimed, and that Kastner then lied about it under oath. One of the supporting facts presented is that, in the Supreme Court appeal of the original verdict implicating Kastner, all five Supreme Court Judges upheld Judge Halevi’s initial verdict on the “criminal and perjurious way” in which Kastner after the war had testified on behalf of Nazi war criminal Kurt Becher. Judge Silberg summed up the Supreme Court finding on this point: “[respondent Malchiel] Greenwald has proven beyond any reasonable doubt this grave charge.”
of course it is well known that posthumously, after he was murdered, most of the judgment was overturned. he was an embarrassment to the state so his reputation has been somewhat resurrected. but it was a very famous and highly scrutinized trial in israel (like oj simpson), not something historians will be forgetting — although some have been rewriting it.
kastner was no hero. but he was no collaborator. to blame him for facilitating the murder of Hungarian Jews is just malarkey. he was a tool used by the nazis who hoped they might exchange jews for trucks, a deal that never had a chance and that in fact failed. (the original negotiator for the deal was not a zionist and only when the nonzionist negotiator was unable to carry through the necessary task did the zionist kastner come forward. it was not his zionism that was key to his role, but his personality.) (the only jews who might have been fooled by kastner were those who were convinced not to run across the border, this limits the number of Jews whose death kastner facilitated to those who lived near the border and who trusted kastner personally. in fact kastner was not known by very many of the hungarian victims of the nazi genocide.) kastner’s choice of Jews was not limited to the rich and to the Zionists and to kastner’s family but according to bauer, yehuda who is/was a real historian and not a polemicist like hecht, the proportions of those saved represented all major jewish groups and not just the rich and zionists. this is just part of the rigamarole of the antizionists who read one book on the issue and thus feel free to malign zionism because of the personality of kastner, whose real sin was not anything he did during the war, but only the fact that after the war he wrote a letter to the Allied judge to be lenient with the nazi who in fact did not deserve leniency. those who lived in freedom their entire lives who know enough to condemn kastner based upon reading a few paragraphs on some anti zionist web site, really should limit their mouths to something they know something about, which does not include people with families controlled by the nazi murderers. he was not a collaborator. he was a hostage whose family was a hostage. he was human and fallible and imperfect. not a hero. a negotiator. an imperfect negotiator.
(yehuda bauer- “jews for sale? Nazi jewish negotiations 1933-1945. New Haven. Yale university press, 1994)
m1945. please read the comment policy. there’s no nakba denial here.
The exiles became exiles because they were fighting with the Jews. [..]
@ m1945 “250,000 Palestinians lost their homes.”
In just one of Israel’s slaughterfests.
Say, what’s the number of homes lost by Israelis since 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) when Israel’s borders came into effect? link to trumanlibrary.org
” About 2,000 were killed, mostly male, lots of fighters.”
Statistics and sources please … I’ll wait”
“Some also died because Hamas told them not to leave”
A) Evidence please. A repeated accusation is not evidence BTW
B) Where would they have been able to flee to? Israel had all the crossings closed under the 2005 agreement with Egypt, (only possible to have such an agreement as an Occupying Power), thereby preventing civilians from fleeing a war zone, BEFORE attacking, which is illegal under Geneva Convention 1V…Section II..Occupied territories..Art49…The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Civilians could not even flee into the sea, because Israel controls the Palestinian territorial waters.
“If not for the warnings, 250,000 would have been dead”
Bullsh*te speculation by an idiotic apologist for Israeli war crimes is so cute.
If you think your representation of kastner is fair, then you’re wrong. to call him a collaborator is wrong and you are way wrong.
“Yonah” is is apparent that “Stephen” has never heard the Talmudic prescription: “He who saves the balebatisheh yiden saves the whole world!”
a few hundred feet away from the building
palestinian is such a long word
hoya, not sure which moderator cleared your “pali” comment but if i’m around i’ll be trashing them. so you might try getting used to such a long word.
Technically speaking, the majority of Gaza’s population is the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing – that is by Zionists who expelled much of the population of southern Israel into Gaza. The same goes for Jordan – majority ethnically cleansed Palestinians.
Israeli arabs in the jewish supremist state rule in the knesset, sit on the supreme court, become doctors and lawyers, vote and own land..tell me about christians and jews in islamic regimes..Ill wait. Since you think they are all equally awful.
palestinian is such a long word and a stolen identity anyway..funny how it didnt dawn on anyone to steal an identity until an egyptian named arafat claimed it only meant an arab group….also funny how he tried to pretend to be born in jerusalem. What wont a funny arab claim is the question.
“without fear of reprisal or even moderation, even though you continue to violate”
Instead of asking the Mods to become unpaid editors for “Hophmi”, why not take the attitude that the very worst thing the Mods can do to “Hophmi” is print his stuff as is?
Thank you for taking a strong, unequivocal stand on this.
“Hillary gets angry and indignant about the 20 children killed in the Sandy Hook massacre, but evades a question about the 500 children massacred in Gaza by her BFF Netanyahu (along with 1000 parents massacred and 10,000 neighbors wounded).”
She is a big hypocrite, just like many other politicians. They show outrage when it is to pander to her supporters and big donors, but those who do not matter, or are of no use to their grand plans to win elections, are ignored, or in the case of the Palestinians children, shown no compassion or outrage. Have we ever heard Hillary speak out against any of those kids who the IDF has killed, while playing soccer, or walking to school, or has she ever condemned her masters for kidnapping hundreds of little kids and throwing them in jail? She brags about her grandkids, but seems to not care for the grand kids of Palestinians.
“I like when the pro pali debaters keep insisting anyone is PAID to defend israel…”
Oh, don’t mind them. They are just trying to invoke the old stereotype that Jews are spendthrifts, and simply throw money away.
“but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe”
Yup, given our history and experience there’s nothing cringe-worthy about putting “Jewish” and “State” together.
emory riddle, 100 years ago places us in 1916 and between 1914 and 1916 turkey might have kicked out Jews from palestine for reasons of citizenship in countries that were at war with turkey (including Russia where most recent immigrants had come from.) but in fact in 1914 the numbers were recorded as follows. 650,000 Muslim Arabs and 81,000 Christian Arabs and 59,000 Jews. Get out your calculator to find the precise percentage. It is about 7.5%.
Stephen Shenfield- If you think your representation of kastner is fair, then you’re wrong. to call him a collaborator is wrong and you are way wrong.
This article, and many commenters here, lucidly demonstrate that the distinctions involved are actually quite simple and clear. The confusion in this debate is entirely manufactured. It was manufactured by wealthy war profiteers, using radical Jewish extremists from Eastern Europe to create a cover story for a perpetual, profitable war zone in Palestine. More about Israel’s war industry is here.
link to mondoweiss.net
Additional relevant historical facts are given succinctly online in “War Profiteers and the Roots of the War on Terror”.
My two cents on the terminology –
The common sense “right to exist” applies to a living human being, not an legal entity such as a company or country.
The common sense “right to self determination” applies to a living human being when it does not infringe on another.
“So, Mooser, would you delay justice for the Palestinians until their oppressors work out all nuances of the meanings of Zionism, Judaism, and Anti-Semitism, to your and their mutual satisfaction?”
Nope! Absolutely not! I would not delay it for a second on that account.
And yeah, it’d be nice if, instead of working out nuances, Judaism accepted its responsibility concerning Zionism.
‘Gaza’s population as it is isn’t the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing.’
In fact, it is: many people driven out of what is now southern Israel fled to Gaza.
“Bloody matzoh is so 17th/18th/19th/20th century. Things have moved on a bit and now you are going to have to defend torture, ethnic cleansing, Apartheid, house demolition, the disproportionate murder of civilians, blatant racism and incitement and a host of other obscenities.”
Sorry, but every one of the things you mention involves blood, in one way or another. So those accusations are simply blood libels.
” it’s unusual to discuss politics at Biotechnology conference”
Unless the technology is being developed for a political purpose.
so wonderful it
reminded me of that other Qasim
““A Palestinian village whose feudal owner sold it for a kiss through a pane of glass…”
“in which the virgins’ infants were cooked in their mothers’ milk so soldiers and ministers might eat, along with civilisation!”
It’s not implausible that Obama had to replace Hillary with Kerry in order to get the Iran peace deal done.
link to consortiumnews.com
Hillary gets angry and indignant about the 20 children killed in the Sandy Hook massacre, but evades a question about the 500 children massacred in Gaza by her BFF Netanyahu (along with 1000 parents massacred and 10,000 neighbors wounded).
Hillary has also pledged that she will work to block Americans’ freedom of speech in the BDS campaign against Israel’s crimes.
The only reason I can see for Hillary’s subservience to Israel’s crimes is the huge amounts of campaign money from wealthy “Israel right or wrong” donors like Haim Saban and Lloyd Blankfein.
Her subservience to Israel’s money leads to the conclusion that Hillary would turn over America’s foreign policy in the Middle East to Israel, and that would mean getting involved in another war for Israel, probably against Iran.
link to consortiumnews.com
If America’s establishment media was not controlled by Israel, and simply told the truth about Hillary, Sanders would easily win 75% of the remaining pledged delegates and would have a majority of pledged delegates at the convention.
And these factors don’t even include the vast number of voters disenfranchised in the New York primary, and the money laundering to finance her campaign.
link to commondreams.org
NU’MAN ABD AL-WAHID- “These are facts Livingstone and his wing of the British Labour Party could do well to note if they are to avoid accusations of anti-Semitism….”
Lord help us, Ken Livingstone can’t try to defend Naz Shah against shameful and totally unjustified smears unless he condemns the history of British imperialism in Palestine? Otherwise, he can rightfully expect to be charged with anti-Semitism himself? Did the charges of anti-Semitism come from non-Zionist British imperialists? Or did they come from Zionist attack dogs? Pointing out Zionist hypocrisy may have been poor strategy, however, the de facto support for this type of smear by Nu’Man Abd al-Wahid suggests that he may well be part of this shameful orchestrated campaign of vilification. Real anti-Semitism in Britain is negligible (Zionist ravings notwithstanding), whereas the attack on Naz Shah is despicable and Jeremy Corbyn’s apparent capitulation both shameful and an indication that he doesn’t have what it takes to change the British political economy even slightly.
“The NYT report of Kerrigan’s speech says he castigated “the Arabs” for their “capacity for deception” and also for their “contempt for their own poor.” This context makes clear that he was referring not to Arabs in general but to wealthy and powerful Arabs.”
+1 perfectly stated
I read Hophmi’s link, he is pitiably stupid it in no way supports his contention, he is the tort embodied, the Tortfeasor.
“However, we in the movement have also long lamented the continued intrusion of privileged white, pro-Western, pro-Americanism activists into the space meant for the liberation of oppressed”
you set up a check point, do some de-whiting.
we in the movement like to keep some around, we ask them to talk the Police, it saves lives.
Israel certainly does have the death penalty, just not officially – and only for Palestinians.
Good analogy, imo. Ditto saying about that a Christian state.
The NYT report of Kerrigan’s speech says he castigated “the Arabs” for their “capacity for deception” and also for their “contempt for their own poor.” This context makes clear that he was referring not to Arabs in general but to wealthy and powerful Arabs. To be sure we would need a full transcript of the original speech, but probably the phrase “the Arabs” is a misleading paraphrase by a sloppy journalist. Hardly a basis for the charge of “anti-Arab racism.”
HOHMI- “Yes, yes, the usual projective claptrap from an antisemite about he can’t stand himself. Next?”
You just can’t stop, can you, even if you wind up proving my point? Or are you making a demonstration of Jewish power to let me know that you can make scurrilous accusations without fear of reprisal or even moderation, even though you continue to violate Mondoweiss comment policy with surprising impunity. Ah, gilded victimhood, available only through birthright.
HOPHMI- “…the religion of a particular person….”
Religion? Jewish atheists aren’t Jews? You bounce between religion and peoplehood as suits your propagandistic purpose. Does Israel define Jews based solely upon religion? Zionism is about Jewish peoplehood, as you are well aware and try to obfuscate so that you can conflate tribalism with religion.
HOPHMI- “What’s a Jewish bias?”
A tendency to view reality from a Jewish perspective, usually involving “Is it good for the Jews?”, and nowadays support for Israel. From the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations website:
“Every day, the Conference of Presidents Fund works publicly and behind the scenes addressing vital concerns with US and world leaders, key opinion molders and the public about Israel’s security and vitality, threats posed by a nuclear Iran, global terrorism, anti-Semitism and the delegitimization campaign, making a critical difference at home and abroad. link to conferenceofpresidents.org
And make no mistake, the so-called fight against anti-Semitism is but a pretext for the making of scurrilous accusations designed to intimidate in order to achieve political objectives, as is the case with this disgraceful attack on Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone and Jeremy Corbyn. A quote and a link to Norman Finkelstein who discusses this very issue.
“But lo and behold, in the blink of an eye, right in the wake of the Pew poll showing that antisemitism in the UK is marginal, the hysteria has started up all over again. The reality is, there is probably more prejudice in the UK against fat people than there is prejudice against Jews.” (Norman Finkelstein) link to normanfinkelstein.com
“Some also died because Hamas told them not to leave. ” m1945
Has to qualify as the most idiotic comment of the decade.
Leave and go where??????????????????????????????.
“And whatever the encounters between German Zionists and Nazis in the early 1930s it certainly didn’t save any card carrying Zionist Jews in Europe from being murdered by the Nazis a few years later.”
In fact, Zionist-Nazi collaboration (which was certainly not confined to the early 1930s) DID save some “card-carrying Zionists” from being murdered. Rudolf Kastner, who led the Zionists in Hungary, made a deal with Eichmann by which he would facilitate the murder of most of his fellow Jews in exchange for a train to Switzerland for 1600 Jews chosen by himself, including friends and relatives, colleagues in the Zionist movement, and businessmen who could pay their way.
Exactly, just like it is not anti White to say it is wrong to have a White state.
i wouldn’t bother eljay, this poster doesn’t play w/a full deck:
Funny since they receive what, the highest aid per capita of any people in the world?
that distinction goes to israelis, who receive billions in aid every year, vs millions for palestinians.
between this poster, m19 (currently arguing god’s land deed is law on another thread) and hop’s ad hominems — the level of commentary for team israel is sinking lower and lower.
The part that grabbed my attention was the guy in the crowd asking Bernie about his Jewishness. Why is what he said offensive? Are we supposed to pretend that there is no ethnocentrism in the banking industry, in the Federal Reserve? Give me a break.
Israel is 75% Jewish.
Yep…not counting those under their control in West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights.
Israel 100 years ago was, of course, well below 5% Jewish.
It’s what was done to increase that 5% to 75% that is the problem.
Can you tell us about that at all?
Norman Finkelstein has posted a response to this whole anti-Semitism brouhaha that stands as a useful counterpoint to this Robert Cohen article. I quote two paragraphs from this excellent article along with the link.
“Compare the American scene. Our Corbyn is Bernie Sanders. In all the primaries in the US, Bernie has been sweeping the Arab and Muslim vote. It’s been a wondrous moment: the first Jewish presidential candidate in American history has forged a principled alliance with Arabs and Muslims. Meanwhile, what are the Blairite-Israel lobby creeps up to in the UK? They’re fanning the embers of hate and creating new discord between Jews and Muslims by going after Naz Shah, a Muslim woman who has attained public office. They’re making her pass through these rituals of public self-degradation, as she is forced to apologise once, twice, three times over for a tongue-in-cheek cartoon reposted from my website. And it’s not yet over! Because now they say she’s on a ‘journey’. Of course, what they mean is, ‘she’s on a journey of self-revelation, and epiphany, to understanding the inner antisemite at the core of her being’. But do you know on what journey she’s really on? She’s on a journey to becoming an antisemite. Because of these people; because they fill any sane, normal person with revulsion.
In order to put an end to this, there has to be a decisive repudiation of this political blackmail. Bernie Sanders was brutally pressured to back down on his claim that Israel had used disproportionate force during its 2014 assault on Gaza. He wouldn’t budge, he wouldn’t retreat. He showed real backbone. Corbyn should take heart and inspiration from Bernie’s example. He has to say: no more reports, no more investigations, we’re not going there any more. The game is up. It’s long past time that these antisemitism-mongers crawled back into their sewer – but not before humbly apologising to Naz Shah, and begging her forgiveness.” (Norman Finkelstein) link to normanfinkelstein.com
I forgot to add that Lying Mark Regev is now the new Israeli Ambassador in the UK.
It seems snakes are now slithering in to the UK as well..
Israel will “control” the UK too and they will know it.
“Why do you claim that two states are impossible?” m 1945
Because the torah boundaries declare it so.
Still in the UK remember Lying Mark Regev?
Here he is lying through his teeth, and those lies being challenged by that great interviewer Jon Snow (wish we had a few journalist with spine like him)
Looks like Regev is muddying up the cesspool and messing with UK politics and policies, just like the zionist mouthpieces do in the US. The lying and manipulating of politicians go on.
john o called “bathos:”
no my friend ……i had something else in mind
murder in the name of religion while evoking the name of G-d is not merely “bathos” .
lt is absolute proof that there is no connection between G-d and religion
So, Mooser, would you delay justice for the Palestinians until their oppressors work out all nuances of the meanings of Zionism, Judaism, and Anti-Semitism, to your and their mutual satisfaction?
Or should the US and the international community (and those Israelis who don’t support their own government’s policies) require the oppressor to stop oppressing?
“New hire over at Hasbara Centra” James North.
Just in ,
Accounts payable dept at hasbra central goes on strike due to increase in work load.They claim that hasbara policy of paying hasbarrats per post is putting them under a great strain.They cited m1945 as the straw(man) that broke their backs.They suggested that pay be based on quality v quantity but management said they would have to close down the accts payable dept if that policy was implemented.
And how much did you earn for this little piece. Hoya saxa? If you are a hard-pressed student, forced into prostitution in order to pay your fees then no one begrudges you a shekel of your remuneration. After all Israel is just like the US, the UK, and many other states where the well-being of ordinary citizens and especially their health and education is sacrificed for tax-breaks for the rich and expensive security / military toys.
It would appear that this is your first shift on duty, so I can only assume you missed out on the training session. Bloody matzoh is so 17th/18th/19th/20th century. Things have moved on a bit and now you are going to have to defend torture, ethnic cleansing, Apartheid, house demolition, the disproportionate murder of civilians, blatant racism and incitement and a host of other obscenities. Hope you have the stomach for that. Best Wishes and Good Luck with your course.
“The Torah states the names of the owners of the land & the boundaries of the land. In other words, the Torah is the deed to the land. ” m1945.
Better get in touch with nuttyahoo and co. At the rate they are expanding , they might end up with boundaries outside the Torah maps version..What will you do then when you can no longer claim the torah is the deed.
Btw , can you tell which page in your torah shows these particular boundaries.The UN might also like to have a gander at them.
“If you write on the deed to your house that God gave you your house, that doesn’t invalidate your deed “.m1945.
If you write that on the deed to someone else,s house , you will probably end up in jail for attempted fraud.
Some months ago in Ireland a homeowner who was having his house repossessed for failing to keep up his payments told the repo guy that god gave him the house.The repo guy responded with !!.
God giveth and the bank taketh away.
I note you are a fan of fiction , eh m1945.
Thank you, James.
David, what a really pleasant surprise! Now my two lads are real Brummies, but I came to Brum from Devon in 1959 to study chemistry at U of B, and stayed for about 22 years. Undoubtedly my days there and the formation of many friendships in the Jewish, Christian and other communities was foundational in the moulding of the person I am today. God bless Birmingham! At the moment I live up in Co Durham, but we are looking to end our days in Cornwall. I absolutely concur with what you have
said. Also, you have saved me putting a similar comment to the one you have put to m1945 regarding the Yom Kippur war, which coincided with Ramadan that year.
pabelmont , thanks for the link and Bremmer,s book sales just increased by one.
The more zionists jump on any opportunity to use the Antisemitism accusation , the more they open up the debate about zionism and it,s true history.
This word “pali” intrigues me. Reminds me of something Lenny Bruce once said .
In this debate about the anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, I think one should also consider whether Zionism itself includes some strains of anti-Semitism. Consider:
(1) Zionists have sought to delegitimize the Jewish Diaspora.
(2) Zionists have argued that ethnic Jews can never claim any part of Europe, America, etc. as their homeland even though they may have been domiciled there for centuries, and various non-Jewish ethnic or immigrant groups are free to adopt the U.S., France, etc., as their legitimate homeland.
(3) Many prominent early Zionists argued that Jews in Europe were “alien parasites” who must “return” to Eretz Israel and shed their “parasitic” disposition by becoming farmers and other kinds of primary producers.
(4) Zionists have actively sought to extinguish Yiddish and Ladino, languages that were once a very important part of Jewish culture and tradition.
I would like to share my essay , where I have explored the ideological affinity between anti-Semitism and Zionism.
|| @aBr: All the comments here that proclaimed there would never be a conviction or ‘justice’ can now complain about israel not having the death penalty as another form of oppression of palestinian rights. … ||
Dunno what all your whining is about but IMO life + 20 is a fair sentence. But I suppose many of your fellow Zio-supremacists will think it’s too harsh a sentence for the mere burning alive of an Aye-rab / Mooslim / Pallywag.
|| … welcome to the 1ss ….. ||
Unlike the current situation in which – among other things – oppression, occupation, supremacism and the summary execution of non-Jews are all in a day’s work.
Hophmi – I’m getting sick of you generalising about Arabs and Leftists in this stereotypical fashion. If you want to complain about Rightists maligning Jews, you had better set a bit of a better example. (:-))
|| m1945: … The Torah … ||
…is a work of mytho-religious “history”. It is not a legal document.
|| … What about where it says that God gave the land to the Jews? … ||
What about it?
|| … If you write on the deed to your house that God gave you your house, that doesn’t invalidate your deed. ||
It doesn’t validate it, either.
hops, the state dept is part of the executive branch and doesn’t take marching orders from congress wrt foreign diplomacy.
a little background, recall “The story behind the deal: Israel kept out of the loop as secret US/Iran meetings took place in Oman” ? >> link to mondoweiss.net
secret meetings between the US and Iran via Oman began in march 2013 — just 2 months after kerry became sec of state. clinton was likely kept out of the loop and resented it. it didn’t happen under her watch but it could have:
Details have emerged the U.S. had been holding secret meetings with Iranian officials in the Omani capital of Muscat since last March, facilitated by Sultan Qaboos of Oman. Qaboos offered himself as a mediator for U.S.-Iran rapprochement after playing a key role in the release of American hikers who were imprisoned by Iran – See more at: link to mondoweiss.net
the hitchhikers were released by iran in sept 2011. so if Qaboos offered himself as mediator at that time, clinton dropped the ball. AP reported:
“talks were held in the Middle Eastern nation of Oman and elsewhere with only a tight circle of people in the know “ also:
Kershner speculated in the New York Times Israeli “outrage may have been fueled” by revelations they were kept out of the loop on the extent of the secret high-level engagement taking place in Oman.
she could have been kept out of the loop because of her close relationship w/israel and fear she could have spilled the beans.
This hasbara boiler-plate that you are cutting and pasting is so incredibly feeble that you should be utterly embarrassed reciting it.
“3 Arab countries had attacked Israel on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar”
(1) “3 Arab countries attacked”. Egypt and Syria attacked. Jordan did not intervene until well into the second week of the war (and certainly not “on the holiest day”), and then only as a face-saving measure. As Ha’aretz later reported: “declassified U.S. documents show that the Jordanian participation was only a token to preserve King Hussein’s status in the Arab world. The documents reveal that Israel and Jordan had a tacit understanding that the Jordanian units would try to stay out of the fighting and Israel would try to not attack them” See link to en.wikipedia.org
(2) “attacked Israel” – no the attack was not on the State of Israel, but on Syrian and Egyptian territory that Israel had occupied in the 1967 war, and was refusing to hand back.
(3) “on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar”; a day that well over 99% of the world’s population does not observe. That year the holy month of Ramadan coincided with Yom Kippur, but so what? Did the occupation stop on that day or has it stopped in the almost 50 Yom Kippur days since it started? Why should Moslems respect such a holy day when it only brings disruption and closures to their everyday lives? See link to ynetnews.com Does the IDF desist from attacking Palestinians on their holy days? See link to nytimes.com
“What saved Israel from being destroyed were ‘her absurd generals, her military junk”
(4) Nothing saved “Israel from being destroyed” because nothing threatened Israel. Israel had massive support from US politicians like Henry Kissinger, and indeed from the entire political establishment which, for instance, had conspired to cover up an Israeli attack on the USS Liberty six years earlier. The US (and Britain and France) had supplied Israel with leading edge military equipment, especially tanks and aircraft, that ensured that whilst Egyptian forces could break out over the Suez Canal they could only make limited advances beyond that because of the necessity of remaining within a SAM missile shield. Whilst the failures of Israeli military intelligence in anticipating the attack were a deep embarrassment, the basis of the assessment (that Israel need not fear an Arab attack on her soil) were proven correct.
“Also, where was the denunciation of Turkey who invaded Cyrus? [sic – perhaps you meant Cyprus, or were you off on an anti-Persian rant?]
(5 )(a) Turkish intervention in Cyprus was to some extent justified. Britain ceded independence to Cyprus on the basis of a Treaty of Guarantee, under which Britain, Turkey and Greece guaranteed the independence of the new state. However following the establishment of a military junta in Athens, demands rose for the union of Greece and Cyprus, and a 1974 coup by the Cyprus National Guard deposed President Makarios and installed Nikos Sampson, an advocate of Enosis or union with Greece, and Greek militias threatened the ethnic cleansing of the north. The Turkish PM sought joint action with Britain to maintain the island’s independence, but when this was not forthcoming Turkey took unilateral action to protect the Turkish Cypriot population, (facing ethnic-cleansing and hemmed into enclaves by Greek nationalists) by invading the north, pending peace talks.
(b) If you have failed to find any denunciation of Turkish action, why not look at the UN General Assembly resolution of 1983 which (after many years of attempted complex negotiations, finally failed) demanded the withdrawal of Turkish occupation forces. Or, following a unilateral Declaration of Independence by the north, a UN SC resolution, later that year, condemning Turkish recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Or consider that to this very day Turkey is the only state that recognises the TRNC, and the widespread economic and political boycott, unparalleled by anything directed at Israel for its long-standing occupation, is forcing Turkish Cypriots to leave for England, the USA, Canada and Australia. See: link to telegraph.co.uk
Where was the denunciation of Turkish setters [sic: presumably you are not referring to a breed of dogs] in Cyprus?”
(6) But Northern Cyprus has not declared itself the ancestral homeland of the Turkish people, is not attempting to attract Turks from around the world to return to redeem the land, and is not implanting settlers in Southern Cyprus. It is sometimes quite difficult to distinguish between migrants who come of their own free will to areas offering economic opportunities, and deliberate government encouragement of immigration into an occupied zone in contravention of Geneva IV. It would seem that small-scale encouragement of settlement of mainland Turks definitely occurred after 1974, though with a some justification (movement of Greeks from the north vastly exceeded return of Turks from the south, leaving untended land and an undermanned economy. (see link to duo.uio.no) But the Turkish government seems to have been genuinely supportative of rapprochement between the two communities in Cyprus, has no vested interest in exacerbating the dispute, has no ideological or economic interest in thwarting a resolution, and has recognised the autonomy to the Turkish community in Northern Cyprus to resolve their communal dispute. (see link to in-cyprus.com)
Pathetic hasbara fail – you have nerely repeated prescribed talking points, without any understanding of history or the underlying issues.
To me, it’s a threat, and it shows how shallow the “commitment” to justice in this case is among “liberal zionists.”
“We’ll support you, as long as you adopt our platform, language and tact; any deviation from this, or any statements made in anger regarding the group who carries out these injustices and it’s FAH-Q”
I the matter of what the UC Regents report concluded, I think Phil has not quoted the final approved document of March 24, 2016. Phil’s quote is:
“Anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and other forms of discrimination have no place at the University of California.”
I expect this comes from the earlier working group’s draft. The final document states something different.
“Anti-Semitism, anti-Semitic forms of anti-Zionism and other forms of discrimination have no place at the University of California.”
The latter is rather innocuous since anti-Semitic forms of anything has no place anywhere. This would explain, I think, why most news outlets emphasized that the report rejected the equation of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. In effect the process pushed by the anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism people left them worse off, poetic justice for instigating a bogus battle from the beginning.
@ m1945 “Jews have lived there for thousands of years”
More non-Jews have lived there for longer. In fact there’s no evidence that our Jewish fore-bearers were ever a majority in the region.
“If you dig, you will find ancient Jewish synagogue & ancient Jewish ritual baths”
So what? It’s entirely irrelevant to the officially proclaimed and Internationally recognized borders of Israel and Israel’s illegal activities in territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”
” the Torah is the deed to the land”
Not according to the Israeli Government who proclaimed Israel’s borders as being ” within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″
You’re bitching at the wrong people. Take it up with the Israeli Government
“Do you get that we can only do something about the present and not the past?”
If you don’t understand how patently absurd this statement is, wether events from 150 years ago in the US, 100, 70 or 50 yrs in the ME, you are clueless, hopeless and most of all frighteningly shallow. wearing your heart on your sleeve will not help you or your fellow sympathizers.
“How much more pain is israel going to cause? How much longer is israel going to live in denial?”
I’m sure that if Jews throughout the world, organized as such, repudiated and actively opposed Zionism, it would have a tremendous effect.
“These numbers say nothing about who was at fault.”
Unlike world war 2, the Israel-Palestine conflict was started by the Yishuv and exacerbated by the Israeli state.
The Jews are the only party in the conflict who’ve committed wide-scale ethnic cleansing. They’re also the only party who’s murdered civilians on a comparatively wide scale, and the more then any of the other belligerents in Israel’s wars on the Palestinians and Lebanese combined.
” Please explain why Palestinians were murdering Israelis before settlements & before occupation.”
“Murdering”. Palestinians were killing Israelis and fighting the murderous, thuggish IDF prior to 1967 because of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, the land theft by Israeli Jews, that began in earnest in 1947 and continued all the way through to the renewed large-scale ethnic cleansing in 1967.
A handful, if that, of the Jews killed in the years between 1947 and 1967 were actually “murdered”.
In contrast, Israel (the Jews) routinely murdered Palestinians on the borders of the Israeli state, and in other places.
Murders, unjustifiable killings, maiming, systematic abuse and humiliation….. let’s just say you don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to attempts at selective outrage.
The 2 responders clearly don’t know what a “ban” is and must not accept the hamas bragging about the new extent of their tunnel network which uses another 1000s upon 1000s of tons that the nit-picking rtz can look up or simply deny it because I don’t provide a ‘link’, lol.
All the comments here that proclaimed there would never be a conviction or ‘justice’ can now complain about israel not having the death penalty as another form of oppression of palestinian rights. imagine how the victims parents will feel if the murderer were freed some years down the road in some hair brained prisoner exchange…. And while a parent’s grief is unimaginable i can only imagine that when they say the life+20 is not enough, they mean only death would satisfy them. welcome to the 1ss …..
Yes, it is important for Livingstone to admit to the Balfour-beam in his English-Labour eye before pointing derisively to the Nazi-mote in some early Zionist’s eye. (“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” Matt. 7:3)
It always is “funny” to see people who belong to a group notorious for its extreme hatred of the Palestinians, “the Arabs”, and indeed any and all non-Jews from the Greater Middle East try and pretend that they care about “anti-Arab racism” in any form.
I really don’t get, in light of the reality of people like him, what he’s trying to go for here.
Always interesting that you fools try to break this nonsense out as though it makes an “argument” in the slightest.
” Always interesting that the world can have dozens of islamic states and no one bats an eyelash”
Well, that’s strictly speaking not true. People like you whine about it all the time.
The fact that normal people “don’t bat an eyelash” is because those populations are indigenous, have lived there naturally. Those are their countries.
Do you whine about the European states being “Christian” or otherwise majority Christian as well? Whine about populations who’ve always been there?
” but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe and scream racism and intolerance. ”
Because the one “Jewish state” is entirely artificial, and entirely founded on wholesale land theft and ethnic cleansing.
It only exists because of the racist, intolerant political ideology that is Zionism– an ideology that in practise lauds ethnic cleansing and land theft as “moral” in the 20th and 21st centuries, as long as “only the Jews do it”.
If there was a natural population of Jews, who were always there and their state by virtue of the indigenous population was a “Jewish majority” one (none of these factors apply to Israel), then people wouldn’t take issue with it.
“Gaza is 99% muslim, sigh. West Bank is 98% muslim, boring. Israel is 75% jewish..OH NO! Funny.”
Once again, for the slow (you): Gaza’s population as it is isn’t the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing.
Neither is the Muslim population of the Palestinian West Bank, occupied or otherwise.
But– the state of Israel is entirely the byproduct of land theft and ethnic cleansing. The overwhelming majority of Jews in the so-called “Jewish state” are not indigenous to the Levant; they are a foreign implant from all over the world, living off the “fruit” of their land theft and ethnic cleansing.
Can you remotely parse what the difference is?
It is possible, as the BDS program shows, to define what needs to happen in Israel/Palestine without mentioning Zionism or Jews.
Let me demonstrate.
In every country, I demand democracy of its citizens and conformity with international law. Having boundaries would not be a bad idea, generally.
My first concern is a matter of international law: people who have not become citizens elsewhere must be allowed to return to their own country, irrespective of its government. Israel may not exclude itself from the reach of this rule. The exiles of 1948 and 1967 must be allowed to return to territory controlled nowadays by Israel and there to be full citizens.
My second concern is with democracy. Israel (and every country) must allow all citizens to run for office under all platforms, to be elected, and to legislate as they choose. Any (constitutional) restrictions on all this must be fully non-discriminatory. No discrimination, no censorship, no impediments must exist which would make it impossible, for instance, for the legislature of Israel to pass a law which ends discrimination in favor of Jews and replaces it with discrimination in favor of Muslims or Arabs or Martians.
Now if lots of Palestinian exiles from 1948 return to Israel and become full citizens, they might become a majority of voters. Under current law, Jews may continue to immigrate into Israel, keeping up Jewish numbers. In 5 or 10 or 15 years, Jews may still be the majority. Or not. If Palestinians become a majority, various laws privileging Jews may be reversed. Or not. Of course. That is democratic.
So you see that this demand is not antisemitic or even anti-Zionist. It is pro-democracy and pro-international law. Even if it went into effect, it would not necessarily make it impossible for there to be a Jewish state, and I do not oppose that. Perhaps that state would be where Israel is today. Or, of course, elsewhere: in America or in Saudi Arabia — close allies, both, of Israel’s. But ideally it should be located in a place where a lot of people will not have to be displaced to create the state. That’s been tried. Bad idea.
Obfuscating stupidity? Cool beans.
Or it could be that you really are that slow. It’s very possible considering your views on the Palestinian (and the Lebanese also, to be sure) people and your Zionism.
|| hoya saxa: … As for eljay, no, there is no law requiring israel to suck up millions of palestinians … ||
Millions of Palestinians, no. Refugees from Partition-borders Israel, yes.
|| … Could you copy and paste that LAW that requires israel to take in millions of palestinians. Ill wait. … ||
I’ll copy and paste and, like a good Zio-supremacist, you’ll read and dismiss:
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 – 2.1 Article 11—Refugees
The UN General Assembly has reaffirmed Resolution 194 every year since 1949. Multiple subsequent resolutions from the United Nations have reaffirmed the right of return, including General Assembly Resolution 169 (1980), and Security Council Resolution 237 (1967).
|| … I do smile buddy..I smile a lot. Especially when … ||
…you’re off your meds. Understood.
I like when the pro pali debaters keep insisting anyone is PAID to defend israel…just to rattle off a few numbers 7 in 10 americans support israel while support for a pali state is at a 20 year low among americans. Is it possible that some of those 240 million americans are posting online? Or must they all be paid israeli agents? Silly. A few tuition dollars to students who explain to bigots how jews dont bake blood into their matzoh is not exactly a propaganda campaign. Debunking bigots who claim jews stayed home on 9/11 is a problem for you?
@oldgeezer May 3, 2016, 1:03 pm
@Mooser May 3, 2016, 11:55 am
@eljay May 3, 2016, 11:39 am
The Torah has the legal elements required for a deed:
the names of the owners & the boundaries of the property.
The law goes by the oldest document.
There’s a Torah that’s over a thousand years old.
There’s no other deed that old.
What about where it says that God gave the land to the Jews?
What if you’re an atheist?
It’s irrelevant. If you write on the deed to your house that God gave you your house, that doesn’t invalidate your deed.
Only when you spam and post links like this totally out of context does it help your nasty little narrative.
That’s of course, the “Palestinians started it and they’re doing it for no reason” narrative.
My response? End the aggression against the Palestinians, the aggression that’s been a staple of the Jewish and Zionist movement since before the official creation of the so-called “Jewish state” in 1948.
All Palestinian rocket firings are retaliation or in response to something the Israeli state or the IDF enact or do.
Want the rockets to stop?
Stop stealing Palestinian land. Stop shooting up fishing boats in Gsza, or “pre-emptively” striking parts of the Gaza Strip (often killing civilians). Stop maiming and murdering Palestinians out of hand in Gaza and the occupied West Bank both.
Those are just some of the reasons, outside of generic Palestinian “revenge-ism” for things like this: link to countthekids.org
|| hoya saxa: Always interesting that the world can have dozens of islamic states and no one bats an eyelash but the thought of one jewish state in the world makes some cringe and scream racism and intolerance. … ||
The world should have no supremacist states of any kind – not even “Islamic States” or “Jewish States”.
What’s interesting is that you view one brand of injustice not as something to be condemned but as something to be used for your own brand of injustice.
“Murderers exist, so it’s OK to rape” is not a valid defence of your own brand of injustice and immorality.
|| … West Bank is 98% muslim, boring. Israel is 75% jewish..OH NO! … ||
A Palestinian state that is established as a religion-supremacist “Islamic State” will be as much of an “OH NO!” as an Israeli state that is established as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.
“Oh and the Torah is a land deed is a side splitter.”
I wonder if the red, yaller, and white tickets we used to get at Hebrew School for memorizing Torah verses can be used to make house payments? I’ve still got bunches.
@a blah chick May 3, 2016, 8:51 am
250,000 Palestinians lost their homes. About 2,000 were killed, mostly male, lots of fighters.
Some also died because Hamas told them not to leave.
If not for the warnings, 250,000 would have been dead.
“What is not illegal ” s/b “What is not legal “.
Oh and the Torah is a land deed is a side splitter. Yer a riot alice.
Careful, “mcohen” your ellipse is tumescent.
In actuality, it’s been pro-Israel propagandists who’ve been “corrupting” Wikipedia articles on the Israel-Palestine situation for years.
Creating individual articles for every “settler” who gets farted at while working to make Palestinians murdered or maimed by Jews footnotes, if that, at “best” whenever it happens.
Nope. This picture is a good example of the “banality of evil” per the scribblings of Hannah Arendt.
Hamas isn’t “sending” anyone. No one’s filming “suicide videos”.
No Israeli in the occupied West Bank who’s been stabbed or shot or run over is an “innocent civilian”.
It seems to be IDF, “Israel Border Police”, and the invasive cretins who steal land and often act as illegal paramilitary belligerents who call themselves “settlers”.
If this latter party is to be considered “civilian”, then what are they doing stealing land in an entity that’s not considered by anyone to be “part of Israel”? Israeli civilians belong in Israel, not in what’s left of Palestine.
Bernie was coxed into displaying an iota of sympathy for the Palestinian people.
All four of them are legitimate military targets as long as they remain in occupied Palestine and act as belligerent, hostile combatants.
I’d like to see a “before and after” picture of them, if you know what I mean.
Yawn. Whose word do we have? That of the lying, Palestinian-hating IDF and other occupation authorities.
Even if the girl was actually planning to stab some illegally occupying, Palestinian-hating type? It’s clear that the ultimate responsibility lies with the illegal occupation and the thugs calling themselves “Israel Defense Forces”. Creating an environment that’s so abusive to Palestinians that they try and strike back by any means necessary?
Sounds like that ole has ba rats tactic of “look over there, they are worse than us”. Focus.
“It’s not about the Jews. It’s about what the State of Israel is doing to the Palestinian people.”
And what does the State of Israel call those people who are “doing to” the Palestinian people? “Jews”, isn’t it? It is what they call themselves, is it not? The world-wide network of support for Zionism?
Whether we like it or not (and I sure as hell don’t) it is about the Jews.
(And I just got told, in no uncertain terms, that “the Torah is a land-deed” to Palestine. The Torah is not about us?)
” It’s just amazing that you leave out the part about “members in Congress.” Just amazing and disingenuous.”
It’s the height of irony for you to accuse anyone else of being “disingenuous”, especially when it comes to this issue.
Congress, to its eternal shame, is in Netanyahu’s pocket on this crucial issue (or otherwise up somewhere where the sun don’t shine).
Hilary was influenced by cowardly, evil people like Saban and Netanyahu. Congress? Influenced by the same cowardly, evil people.
You’re just grasping desperately for any chance to accuse people of whatever, per the attempts to poo-poo anything critical of Israel.
” You dismiss any notion of nuance in order to hammer home your agenda.”
This is actually really gross (and typically pathetic) coming from the likes of you.
Ever heard sayings about glass houses and throwing stones? Or the pot calling the kettle black?
Things like that?
Here is Hillary in all her glory defending the occupier, and obviously having no honesty in condemning the illegal settlements when Jon Stewart brings it up, and trying desperately to blame the other side, while doing the dirty work for her donors. Again, it is a reminder to me why I find it hard to vote for her. Anyone noticed even an iota of sympathy for the Palestinian people who are being killed and having bombs sent into their homes?