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FOLKS- As I said in my initial comment this is a big topic. It is also a very important topic which is too little discussed. Because of its relevance both to the Palestinians and to imperial geostrategy in general, I am going to delve a little deeper. Hang with me.
Many Mondo commenters may be unaware of the extent to which post World War II the US consciously sought to extend its cultural influence and worldview not only to the Third World but to Europe as well. The CIA and State Department financed cultural groups/magazines which supported the US worldview. More significantly, the US opened up other cultures to US cinema or else. Economic aid to post war France was tied to opening up France to American movies, the prime transmitter of American mythology. It seems to have paid off. I am now going to provide three quotes from “The Grand Chessboard” to show the geostrategic importance Zbigniew Brzezinski placed upon culture.
“Rome’s imperial power, however, was also derived from from an important psychological reality….Cultural superiority, taken for granted by the rulers and conceded by the subjected, thus reinforced imperial power” (p11)
“The overseas British Empire was initially acquired through a combination of exploration, trade, and conquest. But much like its Roman and Chinese predecessors or its French and Spanish rivals, it also derived a great deal of its staying power from the perception of British cultural superiority. That superiority was not only a matter of subjective arrogance on the part of the British ruling class but was a perspective shared by many of the non-British subjects. In the words of South Africa’s first black president, Nelson Mandella: “I was brought up in a British school, and at the time Britain was the home of everything that was best in the world. I have not discarded the influence which Britain and British history and culture have exercised on us.” Cultural superiority, successfully asserted and quietly conceded, had the effect of reducing the need to rely on large military forces to maintain the power of the imperial center.” (p21)
“In brief, America stands supreme in the four decisive domains of global power….and culturally, despite some crassness, it enjoys an appeal that is unrivaled, especially among the world’s youth….” (P24, “The Grand Chessboard,” Zbigniew Brzezinski)
jon S your link proves only that Jews like everyone else have different points of view.
You provided zero evidence that what I /Mooser/Misterioso and others posted is incorrect.
“neither Shammai nor Hillel have an objection in principle to teaching a Gentile”
what’s the Jewish for fatwa?
neither Shammai nor Hillel have an objection in principle to teaching a Gentile.
the relevance is lost on me. how many rabbis endorsed killing gentile babies under the pretext they may someday be a threat? do you counter that by saying, it’s hyperbole — look over here there are rabbis who object in principle to killing gentile babies.
This is the Talmud, so what we’re reading here is an ARGUMENT. One sage , R. Yohanan, argues against a Gentile studying the Torah, saying that such a Gentile “deserves death”. This is obviously hyperbole since in any case a Jewish court can only hand down a death sentence on transgressions specifically cited in the Torah as meriting the death penalty and “a Gentile studying Torah” is not one of them. Right after this argument comes a counter-argument from another sage, R.Meir, who engages in some hyperbole himself and says that a Gentile studying Torah is “as a High Priest”, in other words: more exalted than any Jew.
In practice, then, there is no such law. Indeed ,had there been such a prohibition it’s difficult to see how any non-Jew could have ever converted. There are stories of non-Jews studying Torah prior to their conversion. (For example the story -or legend – of Graf Potocki) And it brings to mind one of the most well known stories regarding the sages Hillel and Shammai:
“There was another incident involving one gentile who came before Shammai and said to Shammai: Convert me on condition that you teach me the entire Torah while I am standing on one foot. Shammai pushed him away with the builder’s cubit in his hand. (This was a common measuring stick and Shammai was a builder by trade.)The same gentile came before Hillel. He converted him and said to him: That which is hateful to you do not do to another; that is the entire Torah, and the rest is its interpretation. Go study.”
Note that neither Shammai nor Hillel have an objection in principle to teaching a Gentile.
yourself being the exception! because you used the term yourself, quoting eljay — thereby perpetuating it. o what a tangled web we weave…
“I pointed out that your fellow Zionist, Zionist Jew, was responsible for the term”
And that’s were we differ. I think the person who uses the term is responsible for it.
Machover: “The core of Zionist ideology is the belief that the Jews of all countries constitute a single national entity rather than a mere religious denomination; and that this national entity has a right to self-determination …”
I don’t care about the first part, but the second part is bogus.
Jews, like anybody else have or should have an individual right to self determinition as citizens of their country. But Jews, like anybody else don’t have a collective right to national self determination anywhere they like. The collective right to national self determinination is reserved for the citizens/denizens of a certain territory/country by majority ruling and has nothing to do with their faith or heritage. So in Palestine the citizens of Palestine had a national right to self determination by majority ruling. Whoever illegaly immigrated or entered as a refugee didn’t. Period. And unlike every other people who want to exercise their national right to self determination Jews are not even interested in becoming a constitutive people.
An appropriate time to repost this .Perhaps this time dubakr can chime in and complain about his beloved illegal squatters doing their best to make the IDF look as bad as they can.
“What Happened When a Jewish Settler Slapped an Israeli Soldier
Both Ahed Tamimi and Yifat Alkobi were questioned for slapping a soldier in the West Bank, but little else about their cases are similar — simply because one is Jewish, the other Palestinian”.haaretz
“This slap didnt lead the nightly news. This slap, which landed on the cheek of a Nahal soldier in Hebron, did not lead to an indictment. The assailant, who slapped a soldier who was trying to stop her from throwing stones, was taken in for questioning but released on bail the same day and allowed to return home.
Prior to this incident, she had been convicted five times — for throwing rocks, for assaulting a police officer and for disorderly conduct, but was not jailed even once.
In one instance, she was sentenced to probation, and in the rest to a month of community service and practically a token fine, as compensation to the injured parties. The accused systematically failed to heed summonses for questioning or for legal proceedings, but soldiers did not come to drag her out of bed in the middle of the night, nor were any of her relatives arrested. Aside from a brief report by Chaim Levinson about the incident, on July 2, 2010, there were hardly any repercussions to the slap and scratches inflicted by Yifat Alkobi on the face of a soldier who caught her hurling rocks a Palestinians.
The Israel Defense Forces Spokespersons Unit said at the time that the army takes a grave view of any incidence of violence toward security forces, and yet the assailant goes on living peacefully at home. The education minister didnt demand that she sit in prison, social media have not exploded with calls for her to be raped or murdered, and columnist Ben Caspit didnt recommend that she punished to the full extent of the law in a dark place, without cameras.
Like Ahed Tamimi, Alkobi has been known for years to the military and police forces that surround her place of residence, and both are considered a nuisance and even a danger. The main difference between them is that Tamimi assaulted a soldier who was sent by a hostile government that does not recognize her existence, steals her land and kills and wounds her relatives, while Alkobi, a serial criminal, assaulted a soldier from her own people and her religion, who was sent by her nation to protect her, a nation in which she is a citizen with special privileges.
Jewish violence against soldiers in the territories has been a matter of routine for years. But even when it seems like theres no point asking that soldiers in the territories protect Palestinians from physical harassment and vandalism of their property by settlers, its hard to understand why the authorities continue to turn a blind eye, to cover up and close cases or not even open them, when the violators are Jews. There is plenty of evidence, some of it recorded on camera. And yet the offenders still sleep at home in their beds, emboldened by divine command and amply funded by organizations that receive state support.”
No paywall with this link.
Comments welcome from Duhbakr.
It just sums up the whole racism of this fascist Zionist fake democracy.
“But “fatwa” they know”
I may have missed it but I was hoping the Judaism for Dummies JonS or one of the Zionist would take on Rabbi Yaakov on the grounds of Jewish learning, could something be arranged, I would pay…and a booking fee.
I watched some of his videos and know it’s a silly thing but I was really moved by his “would you be humiliated to run from a wild animal” thing, boy in the end we going to so regret even harsh words said in anger…Cockney is a language largely composed of imprecations, curses and profanity so whatever happens I will have my p,c or n peeps with me.
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So in 50 years they will be covering up Zionist leader statutes over there?
B’TSELEM – 17 January 2018
Press release – for immediate publication
“Ahed and Nariman Tamimi remanded in custody as military prosecution requested”
“Remand in custody – even of minors – is part of the routine of oppression that Israel employs against Palestinians, with the full backing of the military courts, a system in which both judges and prosecutors are always military personnel, the defendants always Palestinian, and the conviction rate almost 100%
“Today (Wednesday, 17 Jan. 2018), a military judge approved the prosecution’s request to remand ‘Ahed and Nariman Tamimi in custody. The hearing, which was held at Ofer Military Court, is a prime example – one of many thousands – of how rather than serving justice, Israel’s military court system is a major tool of oppression serving Israel’s control over Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.
“Both ‘Ahed Tamimi (16) and her mother Nariman (42) have been in custody since 19 December 2017, after ‘Ahed was taken from her home in the middle of the night, and her mother was arrested when she came to find out what was happening with her daughter later that day. All the military prosecution’s requests to extend their detention have been approved by the military judges. Meanwhile, the prosecution has built up inflated case files against both mother and daughter, including a litany of charges that go back as far as April 2016 – conveniently ignoring the fact that until now, the authorities have seen no need to arrest the alleged suspects or call them in for questioning.
“The high-profile arrest of the two has elicited extreme responses from top members of government in Israel, ranging from a demand to let them spend the rest of their lives in prison to an announcement that their relatives’ permits to enter Israel would be revoked. These reactions stem partly from the fact that the Tamimi family has long since become a symbol of unarmed Palestinian resistance to the occupation. To defeat this family, Israel is resorting to a variety of tools it has developed and used for more than fifty years against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, as part of its attempts to sustain the occupation regime.
“The key measures that Israel is using against ‘Ahed and Nariman Tamimi are familiar – to varying degrees – from thousands of other legal cases that Israel has taken up against Palestinian defendants: Violent arrest in the middle of the night, slapdash indictments and prolonged detention that today became remand in custody for the duration of the proceedings. The fact that these measures are being used against a minor magnifies the violation of human rights that is already par for the course in Israel’s treatment of hundreds of Palestinian minors: According to statistics provided to B’Tselem by the Israel Prison Service, as of 30 November 2017, 181 Palestinian minors were being held in custody for the duration of legal proceedings in their cases.
“Remand for the duration of the proceedings means that a person continues to be held in custody after the investigation has been concluded and an indictment filed, until all legal proceedings, including judgment and sentencing are over. During this time, the detainee is not serving a prison sentence and is supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. As such, remand should be the exception to the rule, but in the military courts in the West Bank, the prosecution regularly asks the military judges to approve remand, and the latter almost always comply. This practice serves as an incentive for defendants to plead guilty to the charges against them and to sign plea bargains – regardless of whether they actually committed the offense and the evidence against them. If they choose to go to trial while in custody, they may end up spending more time behind bars than they would be sentenced to in a plea bargain.
“The upshot of all this is that the military prosecution is almost never required to go to trial, where it would have to prove the defendant’s guilt. Consequently, the judges’ decision to approve remand is tantamount to a conviction – as the case is decided once the person is remanded, rather than based on the evidence. Pretrial approval of remand in custody of people who have not yet been convicted, as standard practice, effectively empties the judicial process of meaning.
“These proceedings reveal the disgrace of Israel’s military regime as a whole, and of its military courts in particular. In this system, the judges and prosecutors are always military personnel, the defendants are always Palestinian, and the conviction rate is almost 100%. This so-called justice system is one of the most offensive mechanisms employed under Israel’s occupation regime. Its goal is not to serve truth and justice, but to preserve Israel’s control over the Palestinian people. This is true of the Tamimi family – and of thousands of others. “
“Ahed commit acts of resistance that are specifically committed to create scenes making the IDF look as badly as they possibly can. “duhbakr
Yeah , fella , how dare that cheeky untermenschen diminish the rogue regimes most moral army which it (Rogue Regime) has spent hundreds of millions paying hasbarists , (like you)to convince the world , it is as pure as the driven snow and is the only army to issue Halos as standard equipment.
Holy hasbara dubakr , some people just wont get on the zionist bus.What,s a zio to do.
Btw, if you think the fight is unfair then demand that she be taught how to drive a tank or fly an F 35 or better still , learn how to sit in a container and remotely fly drones to kill members of the worlds most moral army and avoid having to slap the brave B——s.
|| Nathan: … “Criticism” is about making suggestions that are meant to help out in improving or correcting some shortcomings. For example, you might tell someone that he should improve his driving by taking some lessons. That would be criticism: You have pointed out some fault, and you have a suggestion for bettering the situation. … ||
“Criticism” is you telling Barkotsche the wife-beater he should stop beating his wife and seek anger-management counselling or you’ll have to report him to the cops.
Zionism is Barkotsche the wife-beater telling you to go fuck yourself because:
– you’re singling out the world’s only Barkotsche;
– he’s entitled to beat his wife of many years (he calls it “self-determine on his historic spouse”); and, anyway,
– rapists and murderers are out there committing more-serious crimes.
RE: [W]e pay the Palestinians HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year and get no…respect,” President Donald Trump wrote on Twitter while most of the Middle East was sleeping two weeks ago.“
RE: “With the Palestinians no longer willing to talk peace,” he added, “why should we make any of these massive future payments to them?”
MY COMMENT: Those payments are made to buy time for the Israelis to “manoeuvre”* (i.e. finish colonizing the West Bank, thereby eliminating the possibility of a Palestinian state).
* SEE: “Permanent Temporariness” | by Alastair Crooke | London Review of Books | 03/03/11:
[EXCERPT] . . . Israel’s vice-premier, Moshe Ya’alon, was candid when asked in an interview this year: ‘Why all these games of make-believe negotiations?’ He replied:
Because … there are pressures. Peace Now from within, and other elements from without. So you have to manoeuvre … what we have to do is manoeuvre with the American administration and the European establishment, which are nourished by Israeli elements [and] which create the illusion that an agreement can be reached … I say that time works for those who make use of it. The founders of Zionism knew … and we in the government know how to make use of time. . .
“There is something majestic about ignorance which is impervious”
Isn’t it something? They don’t know the names of the Jewish or Christian religious courts and their judgements, which in many cases were binding, even to capital punishment.
But “fatwa” they know.
On the part of the Zionists and other supporters of Israel there are two optional arguments: One, it wasn’t settler colonialism. Two, it *was* settler-colonialism, and it is harmful, but it’s justified/OK because the survival of the Jewish people depends on it. The first argument can be easily refuted with historical facts. The second is a moral one.
Can settler-colonialism be justified under any circumstances? (that is assuming that I accept the argument about the survival of the Jewish people, which I do not, and I did grow up on the rationale that the exclusively Jewish state of Israel is absolutely vital for Jewish survival).
Settler-colonialism (or colonialism in general) can no more be justified than a child abuser, a rapist, or a home invader excused for having had a tough childhood. I don’t see that working in the criminal justice system. My mind is simple enough to ask why we do not apply in the international arena the same laws we apply in the criminal justice system, and I am not saying it’s perfect. Obviously not. But thanks to how things are working now at least here in Scotland, I am able to leave my house in the morning, go where I need to go, do what I need to do, drive back and expect to be alive and unharmed as a female who is a migrant to this country, looks a wee bit darker than the average person here and speaks with a different accent. The same is not true for a Palestinian in Palestine, or for a Syrian, or for a lot of people caught up in a colonialist system, or its aftermath or in any supremacist system anywhere.
“yep, he found his “roots” when the PBGC reduced his pension.”
And he was too old to be a mail-order American groom for a “pre-Mandate” Jewish family.
US tax dollars hard at work
@Rob Roy — Thank you for a very kind comment.
“I’ve been doing what I can”
You are going to have to do a better job, “RoHa”. Without the centripetal forces of anti-semitism, Judaism becomes centrifugal.
Notice how many different sects of just the Orthodox denomination are mentioned in this thread.
There is indeed a contradiction in the Examples.
But there is another important argument: the IHRA definition does not state that the Examples ARE antisemitism, but “COULD, taking into account the overall CONTEXT” BE antisemitism.
Avigail, incisive and important article. Commentators: thoughtful discussion. Thank you all.
Jeez… Mooser. Horrible…
“So, Mr Greenstein thinks that Israel should never have come into existence, and he wishes for her to drop dead”.nathan.
I am not sure Israel can drop dead.Drop dead assumes it is upstanding.
Israel as it is presently constituted , should never have come into existence.
Expire would be a more apt description.
“He doesn’t think that Israel should change her policy or improve herself” nathan
Neither does Israel.Why beat a dead horse.
” I don’t know why anti-Israel people insist that they are criticizing Israeli policy. Obviously, they have no criticism of Israel – so the two sentences are in contradiction to each other.nathan.
They are only contradictory from the point of view of someone who thinks ANY criticism of Israel is illegitimate or anti semitic.
““Criticism” is about making suggestions that are meant to help out in improving or correcting some shortcomings. For example, you might tell someone that he should improve his driving by taking some lessons.”nathan
Shortcomings—are you completely bonkers.
Btw , your analogy is about as pathetic as it is insulting and simplistic.
That’s a very good point. One standard for white people and another for the rest… This has always been the colonial mindset. I remember seeing books published in the UK at the time when Australia was being colonised. The Australian Aborigines were described as basically non-human and were seen as either a scientific ‘curiosity’ or an ‘object’ of loathing and ridicule. Indigenous people were always seen this way. It helps to dehumanise if you are going to destroy someone or take something from them. Then it’s easy to overcome any guilt, if there is any there at all…
I think you are spot on that psychologically many people who do wrong tend to fear the same being done to them. Your explanation seems right to me. There are other possible explanations for this in my profession. One of them is that once you know something can be done (because you maybe did it), then you know it *can* be done and if it can be done, it can be done to you too… We don’t tend to fear anything we haven’t already experienced or otherwise witnessed. Being a perpetrator falls into the category of knowing it is possible… I think your explanation is better though…
“I’ve used (and been criticized for using) the kidnapping-and-rape analogy”
I would think that’s pretty kosher as analogies go:
“ the punishment of a gentile who studies Torah is like that of one who engages in intercourse with a betrothed young woman, which is execution by stoning. “
Why would anyone drink Israeli wine? I hope this stuff is better than Mogen David or these folks will be out of business soon unless Sheldon Adelson buys it all, convinces American Zionists that drinking it is an act of patriotism, or else hands it out to homeless people and takes a tax write off for his charitable giving.
What an excellent piece, Mr. Machover! I hope that this helps to see off the Ziopaths’ witch-hunt of legitimate critics of Israel within the Labour Party; and, in particular, assists Tony Greenstein. It is perhaps worth a slightly off-topic note, however, that the UK lobby’s targets are not exclusively on the left wing of British politics, viz the lobby’s wish, caught on film in the AJ docu-series on the power of the Israel lobby, to “bring down” such as Sir Alan Duncan, a Conservative minister and critic of Israeli policies against Gaza and in the Occupied West Bank. ANY critic of Israel is “fair game” to be intimidated and silenced.
“On the 2nd of December 1947″
all of which is beside the point, and weirdly edited..a fatwa is an opinion in response to a specific question, Alim can of course contrive to have a topical issue addressed to them, they are not without cunning.
other howlers Zionists declaim
Nathan : ” the Jordanian waqf..”…?
my personal favorite I think Mayhem wrote ” The root of Salam (and by implication Islam?) is a word meaning submission”
“The root …is a word meaning…”
There is something majestic about ignorance which is impervious to influence…
My father was a graduate of Al-Azhar I have two cousins teaching there I guess I understand its status and know what a fatwa is and that the Arabs have every right to defend themselves and express themselves as they do…
The obligations of belligerents are not reciprocal. That is, they do not owe legal behaviour to each other, and the misbehaviour of one does not release the other from its legal obligations. Every armed party, independently and with no opt-out, is bound by these laws
Yes but the key here is that one side is the aggressor and must be defeated. Let the Zionist murderers bitch about the occasional Palestinian pinprick, which they do and how. Not our job.
@Keith — Well said!
Well, I wasn’t bucking for sympathy, but thanks. :-)
More importantly, thank you for your excellent article. I do agree that the focus should be the crime and that the laws addressing it should be upheld in all cases. (Justice, accountability and equality, universally and consistently applied.)
As far as “shared values” go — I recall two very relevant things from primary school…
Singing “This Land Is Your Land”:
This land is your land, this land is my land
From the California to the New York island
From the Redwood Forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me…
And somewhat less radical than Woody Guthrie’s lyrics, the Pledge of Allegiance:
…one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all.
If these are still OK—and they express universal values—what is the objection to the one-state solution? Why, in the midst of the Civil War, didn’t we opt for the two-state solution? What I was taught in primary school provides an answer.
MHUGHES976- “We tend to blame everything on donors but I think that King, like Niebuhr, was responding to something he generally believed.”
Saying that King was influenced by his Jewish donors who he undoubtedly respected about a topic which he was poorly informed does not mean that he did not believe what he said. Of course he did. And if his donors had been anti-Zionists I suspect that they would have influenced his opinion accordingly.
Ahem, calling Israeli behavior criminal, calling it rape, oes sometimes get called antisemitism, which is (among those same namecallers) counted as a higher crime. Just sayin’. Not agreein’.
Avigail, the answer is easy: In the view of oppressors, getting culturally erased is not bad for little brown peoples but would be horrible for big strong white people. Get it?
And lest I forget, thanks for a bang-up essay. Perfect. Colonialism as rape. And perhaps many more people will now say #MeToo about colonialism.
But this does not explain the expressions of fear among the white supremacists. That fear (or that surmise if this is pre-fear on their part) may come about because they have joined the bandwagon of colonialism, of minimizing/oppressing.erasing other lesser peoples, and by easy projection can imagine that those peoples would want to do the same thing back to them. (Whether the oppressed would have the power to do such a thing does not arise, because this fear is not realistic but merely psychological, sins of thought and action coming home to roost as fears of reprisal.)
Absolutely and I am sorry you were criticised for it. As far as I am concerned it is a given and the facts and the impact speak for themselves. It’s a no brainer. Re Palestine, it is time to start to have this conversation and start getting away from focusing on the identity of the victim or the perpetrator (coloniser). It’s not important. Everyone’s focus should be the crime. If we don’t do that we imply that there are worthier victims than others and that somehow perpetrators committing the same crime should also be treated differently. Surely we don’t want to say this, do we?…
AVIGAIL ABARBANEL- (Lecture Quote)- “Why is it so important for indigenous people to maintain their identity? What is so bad with a particular way of life or culture disappearing?”
Jeez, this is a big topic! The short answer is that it depends upon the factors causing the cultural change. During the Industrial Revolution and Enlightenment, European culture was radically transformed to accomodate the changed circumstances. Old social mythology replaced with new social mythology necessary to facilitate social control by a new group of elites. Capitalist businessmen and financiers gradually wrested control of European society from the nobility and church. The new mythology/culture justified and acculturated the citizenry to the new institutions of social power and control.
In the case of modern imperialism, crucial aspects of the indigenous culture are replaced with Western concepts reflecting the Western view of Western superiority and indigenous inferiority. Local leaders are frequently sent to the Western imperial states to be educated and indoctrinated in Western cultural mythos. Many Third World finance ministers, for example, have Economic PhDs from Western elite Universities and fully suscribe to neoliberal doctrines. High ranking military officers are sent to the US for training. And these Third World elites look to the West for their rewards. And for the ideological justifications for adopting policies which benefit Western corporations while harming their people.
In the case of Israel, the Zionists went to great lengths to destroy as much of historic Palestinian culture as possible, villages destroyed, Arabic names replaced by Hebrew names, olive trees replaced with pine trees, Zionist atrocities denied, etc. One consequence is that this Middle Eastern country is oriented to European cultures and values, not to its Arab neighbors. And as more American Jews make aliyah, rather than returning to their mythological cultural roots, they are destroying the culture and replacing it with the homogenized culture of Western capitalism, the bazaar replaced with McDonald’s.
To conclude, colonialism/imperialism is all about elite power-seeking. And any system which exults elite power-seeking is destructive to all that it controls.
Does Trump expect the Palestinians to accept giant outdoor prisons in the occupied West Bank, as their state?
There is a term for what Trump and Haley are doing. Collective Punishment. It is also war crime!
Punishing an entire group of innocent people and the U.N. aid program they rely on for the lack of progress in negotiations by two separate governments is not only disgusting but nothing less than a case of collective punishment! By all means pressure, sanction, embargo, restrict travel, and cut direct financial aid to the PA and its leadership, but punishing the people and third party institutions for the actions (or lack there of) of others is reprehensible and illegal in this case.
I know. I researched it. Same was the case in Australia in the 30s…
Good to see a few USA voices seeing and describing reality. Better to hear it repeatedly from NPR and NYT.
But, as with climate change, there are always deniers and don’t-carers and can’t-be-bothereders and, of course, those who tepidly assert the truth but then do nothing about the problem. Kicking the can down the road is always the policy of choice among the weak minded — and those who will not oppose well-financed entrenched interests.
“Let’s suppose the Jewish people globally have a right to self-determination.”
In that case, it is only reasonable to suspect our loyalty to any state but Israel, any people but ourselves, and any ideology except Zionism.
that video is so damning. what bullies the soldiers are. the soldiers do not want peaceful opponents. they are mean people.
On the 2nd of December 1947, three days after the UN vote, the ulama – the chief scholars of theology – of the University of Al-Azhar, in Cairo, perhaps the most important arbiters and authorities in the Sunni Muslim world, declared a “worldwide jihad in defense of Arab Palestine ”.
In the course of the war, the Ulama of Al-Azhar periodically renewed the fatwa and call to jihad. “The liberation of Palestine [is] a religious duty for all Muslims without exception, great and small. The Islamic and Arab governments should without delay take effectiove and radical measures, military or otherwise,” pronounced the Ulama at the end of April 1948.
On the day of the Egyptian Army invasion of Palestine, 15 May, Muhammed Mamun Shinawi, the rector of Al- Azhar, declared: “ The hour of “ jihad ” has struck … A hundred of you will defeat a thousand of the infidels … This is the hour in which … . Allah promised paradise … “ And in December 1948, on the eve of the final bout of hostilities between the IDF and the Egyptians in the Negev and Sinai, the ulama of Al-Azhar renewed their call for jihad and cautioned the Arab kings – this was directed at Abdullah, King of Jordan, who was suspected of colluding with the Jews – against deviating from “ the way of the believers.” Otherwise, they faced “damnation.”
If Israel’s critics are anti-Semitic it must be because whatever Israel does is the Jewish thing to do, and Zionism is the highest, most actualized expression of Judaism and Jewishness.
Bravo. We’ve been in a bad situation for 50 years, and now it is a crisis. Israel and the USA, especially but not only Trump, have made it a crisis. Now the ball is in the court of the nations. Will they drop the ball by dropping the pretense that there is such a thing as international law, or will they get a backbone? This is the new crisis.
… Colonialism is never for the benefit of the colonised, and it is always carried out in the context of a system of violence, control, and domination. …
I’ve used (and been criticized for using) the kidnapping-and-rape analogy because that’s what Zionism’s “Jewish State” project most resembles to me: An unjust and immoral desire for possession…
– justified by a powerful and irrational sense of entitlement;
– realized and maintained through the use of brutal force; and
– utterly opposed to any just and moral resolution.
“The fatwa demanding jihad”
a fatwa is an opinion, however authoritative, which is by nature non-binding…otherwise we would never ask the Ulema anything…
We tend to blame everything on donors but I think that King, like Niebuhr, was responding to something he generally believed. I regret very much what King did say but he was not, I think, someone who could just be bought by Zionist or other money.
Speaking defensively in part of one’s argument in anticipation of an attack that is certain to come may or may not be effective rhetorically but is not grovelling.
ANNIE- “… to pretend this is in reference to the countries of israel and egypt in 1956, in support of israel, is to completely thwart the meaning of the sermon.”
Yet another example of the lack of intellectual integrity of these Zionist apologists. And as Talkback correctly points out, much of King’s financial support came from Jewish donors who undoubtedly influenced King’s opinion on Israel where he had limited knowledge. A more honest appraisal would be that King’s limited statements on Israel reflected a desire to appease his donors rather than based upon thoughtful, moral principles.
Why is the aid being suspended?
“This is not aimed at punishing” anyone, state department spokeswoman Heather Nauert told reporters, adding that it was due to a US desire to see reforms at the agency.
The $65m is being withheld “for future consideration”, a US official told Reuters news agency, speaking on condition of anonymity.
“It is time other countries, some of them quite wealthy, step in and do their part to advance regional security and stability,” the official added.
The decision comes two weeks after President Trump’s complaint that America receives “no appreciation or respect” in return for its aid. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42711985
So you see the US did not receive any appreciation or respect for its decision on Jerusalem.
@RoHa and Paranam Kid
For the record:
Palestinians rejected the Partition Plan (UNGA Res. 181, Nov. 29/47) for entirely justified reasons based on international law. While Jews made up just 31% of the population (90% of foreign origin, only 30% had become citizens, thousands were illegal immigrants) and privately owned only between 6% and 7% of the land, the Partition Plan (recommendatory only, no legal foundation, contrary to the British Class A Mandate and the Atlantic Charter, never adopted by the UNSC) outrageously recommended they receive 56% of Palestine (including its most fertile areas) in which Palestinians made up 45% of the population. (10% of Palestine’s Jewish population consisted of native Palestinian/Arab Jews who were anti-Zionist.)
48% of the total land area of mandated Palestine was privately owned (‘mulk khaas’) by Palestinian Arabs. As noted, total Jewish privately owned land was only between 6% and 7%. About 45% of the total land area was state owned, i.e. by citizens of Palestine, and it was comprised of Communal Property (‘mashaa’), Endowment Property, (‘waqf’), and Government Property, (‘miri’.) (The British Mandate kept an extensive land registry and the UN used the registry during its early deliberations. It has in its archives 453,000 records of individual Palestinian owners defined by name, location & area.)
Although Palestinian Arab citizens made up at least 69% of the population and to repeat, privately owned 48% of the land, the Partition Plan recommended they receive only 42% as a state. (The 2% of Palestine comprised of Jerusalem and Bethlehem was to be placed under international control, a corpus separatum.)
– Ask “Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?”
– Destroy him/her.
Shake it, Bibi!
I should have also pointed out how American leaders past and present have been expressing fear that ‘Muslims’ or others would ‘destroy’ their way of life. If colonialism is so benign, then why would the US, UK or other (ex colonial and present colonial Western states) worry so much about *their way of life* changing…? Just a thought.
Jackdaw: “The fatwa demanding jihad was first proclaimed in November 1947, BEFORE the civil war, and BEFORE any massacres and BEFORE an expulsions.”
To be exact. On the day that the violation of the territorial integrity of Palestine was recommened by the UN after nearly a decade of Jewish terrorism.
Jackdaw: “To wit; your self defence claim is frivolous.”
Sure, only Jews are allowed to defend themselves against terrorism and the violation of the territorial integrity of their Apartheid Junta. As only they are allowed to transform a rejected UN proposal into using war and expulsion to implement it.
Jackdaw: “The words used by Balfour, and codified by the League of Nations, were, “national home for the Jewish people” in Palestine.”
Balfour never lost a word about Palestine being THE (exclusive) home OF the Jewish people. He wrote about the establishment of A national home IN Palestine FOR the Jewish people. And a “national home” is not a state. Just read what the Jewish Zionist Norman Bentwich, the first General Attorney of Palestine, wrote about the term “national home”:
“It signifies a territory in which a people, without receiving rights of political sovereignty, has nevertheless a recognized legal position and the opportunity of developing its moral, social, and intellectual ideas.”
So according to you a state in Palestine or Palestine as a state for the Jews was not “codified by the League of Nations”.
Jackdaw: “Like it or lump it.”
|| Jon66 @ January 17, 2018, 9:10 am ||
You suggested that Trump was paraphrasing me. I pointed out that your fellow Zionist, Zionist Jew, was responsible for the term. You moved the goal-posts, as you are wont to do. But I’m not interested in playing your dishonest little game.
list? that is why i quoted the original usage:
African states are all hellholes…. why should we expect Israel to be any different?
boomer unwra has set up a twitter campaign w/some explanations. scroll: https://www.unrwausa.org/fund-unrwa?utm_source=UNRWA+USA+Email+List&utm_campaign=6e117f9f77-2018_Fund_UNRWA_1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fdcc83c293-6e117f9f77-299045569
OK, I give. If everyone else here thinks it’s fine, I’ll go along.
It might be helpful to get a list of the countries we are talking about so we are on the same page. I wouldn’t want to miscategorize a “hell-hole” country as one of the “best” or vice versa.
|| @Ba: … daughter Ahed commit acts of resistance that are specifically committed to create scenes making the IDF look as badly as they possibly can. … ||
Yup, it’s utterly shameful that the victims chained in the rapist’s basement refuse to create scenes that make the rapist look as good as he possible can.
This article will drive the Zionists nuts:
“Ahed Tamimi is the Palestinian Rosa Parks” by David A. Love, Al Jazeera, Jan. 15/18
“It is possible for a single person to engage in an act of resistance against oppression and change the world.
“A 16-year-old Palestinian girl named Ahed Tamimi is such an individual. On December 19, in a simple yet profound act of defiance against the occupation, she slapped Israeli soldiers who had entered the yard of her house. Just hours earlier members of the Israeli armed forces had shot her teenage cousin Mohammed in the face with a rubber-coated bullet. The young boy was placed in a medically induced coma as doctors operated on him to remove the bullet fragments embedded in his skull.
“Much like American civil rights icon Rosa Parks – who was arrested six decades ago by breaking the law for refusing to give up her seat on a Montgomery, Alabama bus to a white man – Tamimi has become the face of a nonviolent movement against injustice.”
use of the phrase reinforces the description. If you don’t agree with it, don’t use it.
he was quoting zionist jew http://mondoweiss.net/2014/03/african-seekers-invitation/#comment-653491
if you do not agree with it jon, don’t use it. but in avoiding eljay’s point and going on some purity patrol citing the term again, by your own standards, aren’t you reinforcing the description? the very thing you’re accusing eljay of doing. and frankly, i find his quote of zionist jew’s term effective.
African states, in contrast, couldn’t care less about their “brothas.” The “refugees” are escaping from being persecuted by their brothas. Which population group, the former or the latter, would a state rationally want in it’s country? And tell me, African states are all hellholes, everywhere Africans go they fill their land with crime and poverty, why should we expect Israel to be any different? It’s doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result. If the brothas want good government, they should’ve stayed under colonial rule.
jon, the link is above. if the oozing racism offends you. go to the source.
DaBakr: “Ahed commit acts of resistance that are specifically committed to create scenes making the IDF look as badly as they possibly can.”
ROFL. So the IDF doesn’t act as badly as they possibly can, but Ahed has the power to create scenes that make them look this way and the IDF is the real victim. Besides shooting her relative just moments ago and killing another in this year.
Btw DaBakr, I don’t want to create scenes which make you look as disgusting as possible.
iow, when you claimed BEFORE any massacres you were making that up (lying, another of your fabrications http://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/letter-birmingham-israeli/#comment-904452 tsk tsk). what 1947 ‘arab fatwa’. link please.
re: “has everyone heard trump cut UNWRA funds today. instead of the usual 350mil they are giving only 60mil. nikki haley, barking dog of israel, wanted to give 0. trump thinks he can force palestinians to “negotiate”.”
Yes, I’ve seen/heard some coverage, mostly on BBC but also US media. US media I’ve seen mostly focus on the Tillerson vs. Haley palace intrigue angle, or on the weakness of the Palestinians. (WaPo’s piece basically says they are screwed, albeit without using that word.) Not much explanation of who they are, why they need aid, and the American role in their plight.
Nathan: “The charter is clear that the entire country from the river to the sea must be liberated.”
Yep, like the plattform of the ruling party in Israel. And let’s be honest. There is not a single party in Israel who dreams about a souvereign Palestininan state.
Nathan: “Yes, you can find many quotes in which the PLO recognized Israel (past tense). However, you won’t find any statement in which it is said that the PLO recognizes Israel (present tense). They do NOT recognize Israel, period.”
Yeah, sure. That must be the reason why some are thinking about suspending the recognition of the Jewish Apartheid Junta until it recognizes the State of Palestine.
Do you need to distract from the fact that the Jewish Apartheid Junta has NEVER recognized the State of Palestine? Not even in th past. Period?
Nathan: “So, Mr Greenstein thinks that Israel should never have come into existence, and he wishes for her to drop dead. In such a point of view, he is not criticizing Israel. He doesn’t think that Israel should change her policy or improve herself. He has no suggestion for an Israeli policy that he would approve of. So, he’s not criticizing anything. He’s hostile to Israel, and it’s obvious.”
To be more precise: He can’t criticize Israel, because its Apartheid supremacism and expulsion of the Nonjew is inherent in the ideological fundament of its “national character”.
South Africa could and did change. Same with Germany. But Israel … nope. Still the wish to abolish a supremacist regime has nothing to do with racism (“antisemitim”) or hatred, but with justice, equality and humanity (the opposite of racism). Three aspects that are totally missing from any person who after four requests can’t formulate a single universal value or priniciple on which the Jewish Apartheid Junta was created. You know that I’m talking about you, Nathan, don’t you?
Btw. this is the fifth request and counting.
“It’s Zionist Jew’s characterization. If you have an issue with it, take it up with him.”
From an earlier quote by Eljay,
“It’s funny how Zio-supremacists never pick a relevant example such as, say, Denmark, Austria or Canada when it comes to defending their oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.
It’s always Mali or Saudi Arabia or African “hell-holes”, and always about being just a little bit better than the worst rather than being as good as the best.”
As you see, he is using the pejorative to describe those countries that are “worst”. The use of the phrase reinforces the description. If you don’t agree with it, don’t use it. It’s BS to say, “If you have an issue with it, take it up with him.”. Eljay is the one perpetuating the term.
Personally, it’s not something I would say.
“nobody said the characterization itself is racist”
I think most people think the characterization is racist.
Of course I not denying that, anymore than you’d deny that Arabs weren’t engaged in terrorism before 1947.
The fatwa was made in response to the UN partition resolution, not in response to terror attacks.
Jon66: “Or, he was an educated man who had traveled to the area, was an expert on human rights, and was a Zionist.”
Or maybe he was misinformed by Zionists about their ethnic cleansing and keeping Nonjews under military law in closed enclaves until 1966 within the green line and under the same permit system they intruduced to the Westbank in 1967.
Yakov Rabkin (professor of history at the University of Montreal):
“Israel’s self-ascribed identity as a ‘Jewish state’ brings de facto legitimacy to the renewal of ethnicity as the criterion for belonging.”
“The core of Zionist ideology is the belief that the Jews of all countries constitute a single national entity rather than a mere religious denomination; and that this national entity has a right to self-determination ….”
So this statement would mean the following:
Let’s suppose the Jewish people globally have a right to self-determination. Australian Jews, for example, also have the right to self-determination as Australians, since they are residents of the territory. The non-Jewish Australians, on the other hand, only have the right to self-determination as an Australian. So Jews would have 2 rights of self-determination, while the rest of us have only 1. There is no justification for such inequity, it does not even exist, therefore the Jewish people globally do not have a right to self-determination.
A pertinent analogy from RoHa, in the comments section here http://mondoweiss.net/2017/08/finkelstein-international-solidarity/comment-page-1/#comment-887644
“You are not able to see the difference in his usage and yours?”
I can see the difference, but I can also see the similarities. One glaring similarity in the Buddhist link quoted above is that the victims are Myanmar Rohingya, who happen to be Muslim.
I have quoted examples from Angry Arab (Asad AbuKhalil) because I follow his blog regularly. There are many more examples where he mocks Islamic “kooks” and “Muftititis” (his words), and their “kooky fatwawa”s (his words), but you can look them up yourself.
If you’re going to suggest that Angry Arab blog is Islamophobic because he mocks “kooks” and “fatwawas”, and associates the concept of fatwa with non-Muslims (including those who kill Muslims), then let’s just agree to disagree.
Ongoing disputes over accusations of anti-semitism within the labour party are a recent feature of British political life…
The cynic in me suspects that it’s a convenient way for the “centrists” in Labour to fight the “corbynites” (otherwise why never a peep about the Tories which any observer can see has always harboured more bigots and racists).
Oh and miraculously the “anti-semitism” always seems to involve criticism of Israel or support for BDS etc – and strangely most of the accused are also Jewish…
Anyway there was a massive hoo-haa about it during the labour conference.
Jackd – MLK was killed in 1968. If he had lived long enough to see israel’s crimes and get beyond the various biblical props the mostly atheist zionists use when dealing with christians, he’d be on the side of the oppressed (hint: Not israeli jews). Unless of course the zionists had his nuts in a vice grip of a compromising situation, blackmail or even threatened him or his family with bodily harm (I know, hard to imagine them doing THAT), I’m pretty sure he’d be standing with palestine and be a full supporter of BDS and to hell with the zionist alternative facts (lies).
Something I’m sure a lot of folks here have noticed about zionists and the israel right wing – in their minds, Dr. King “is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is getting recognized more and more”.
I Am Not Your Negro – Official Trailer – YouTube
|| Jon66: Eljay,
It’s not the list it’s the characterization. … ||
It’s Zionist Jew’s characterization. If you have an issue with it, take it up with him.
|| … You have consistently used the term. … ||
I have and I’ve already explained why. Sibiriak gets it. I know you do, too, even though you’re pretending you don’t.
Thank you. By the Zionists’ own admission, then, the Zionist entity is the shithole-in-chief.
Also, you still don’t get plain English: nobody said the characterization itself is racist, if it corresponds with objective reality (as it doubtlessly does in the case of the Zionist entity.) It is racist when part of otherwise racist statements, as those by various Zionists.
As there is no evidence to support yours. Why do zionists feel compelled to drag everyone through the mud? MLK being a zionist? Yeah that works. Especially since he was murdered and cannot confirm or deny what is being said about him WRT apartheid israel. But people are funny; I heard actually that some of Bull Connor’s closest and dearest friends were african americans, cept he called them something else.
Ali Abulimah on Internet Intifada brings to attention the fact that the video has been re-edited by Apple to take it’s sting out:
“New video leaves out Palestine:
(…) So it was disappointing to see that when Apple Music published a completely new “exclusive” video for “We Could Be Free” this week, Palestine appears to have been airbrushed out.
The new video now contains comforting interfaith scenes of a Muslim, Christian and Jew praying and a multicultural message of tolerance.
It ends with a scene of Mensa standing in front of a large crowd of people from all over the world, a sort of reprise of the famous Coca-Cola ad.”
Before thinking that Mensa folded, please consider that it is very likely, that he has no final editorial say in production of his videos. 78/86
|| DaBakr: You folks are just never going to get over the fact that MLK was an ardent supporter of israel. … He was a man and prophet. … ||
He was a man and, like all men, he was fallible. So there’s nothing to “get over” about his poor judgement regarding Jewish supremacism in/and the religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.
RoHa, you are absolutely right: Israel was created fraudulently, because Res. 181 only recommended partition, but did NOT authorise it, a fact that is now completely ignored by almost everyone.
has everyone heard trump cut UNWRA funds today. instead of the usual 350mil they are giving only 60mil. nikki haley, barking dog of israel, wanted to give 0. trump thinks he can force palestinians to “negotiate”.
drastic suffering for refugees, but i think the time to cut the cord of US involvement is long past due. time for the international community, who has ushered along this disaster for decades, to step up to the plate.
Tom, I read your excellent book State of Terror a few months ago, still refer to it regularly when I am in discussion physically or virtually on fora. Thank you !
Kosher slaughter = trachea/esophagus violently pulled out of animals throat. Blight on the nations.
That’s exactly the kind of surprise that everybody urgently needs, Rabbi. Even an educated guesstimate would be precious. Even if, as you say, some of these religious people who don’t see themselves as part of some nation cult do support Zionism out of other, political, grounds, they would at least be rational actors instead of murderous crazies.
One can always discuss things on the basis of various interests –if no nationalist insanity is making it impossible, as it does with the absurdity of so-called “secular Jews”.
I know that there is a “Martin Luther King’ Street in Jerusalem – how sweet and kind of the most democratic etc in the world to have honoured him in this way for totally altruistic reasons of course. I am surprised that they haven’t yet got round to a “Nelson Mandela” Street but perhaps that might draw attention to the obvious Apartheid similarities.But there is hope yet.The Yahoo is currently cosying up to Modi the current Prime Minister of India so perhaps there may be a ” Mahatma Gandhi”Street in the offing.
BTW I do hope that the Yahoo is taking the opportunity to point out to Modi that curry is actually an original Israeli dish.
jack, are you denying the Irgun were not actively engaged in terrorism prior to November 1947? really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_operations
Abbas sounds like a spoilt child who finally realises that his toy is definitely being taken away from him and is throwing a hissy fit. 1SS solution here we come with or without him.Stage 1 = full frontal Apartheid Zioland. Stage 2 = a proper multi racial,multi religion state with equal rights for all.
Abbas + the other Zio stooges = goodbye and good riddance.
you don’t understand what boxed in means? go find a dictionary. oh, and your opinion doesn’t count because you’re an outsider, and biased.
(A little hint: The Palestinian grievance is about international law and universal values.)
“Jackdaw” took a bad hit in the 2008 collapse and ‘retired’ to Israel.
yep, he found his “roots” when the PBGC reduced his pension.
I’ve been doing what I can, Mooser, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to start charging for my time.
But Zionists can afford a few dollars for me, can’t they?
“At one point Abbas stated Arab leaders could “go to hell.” Does that mean the defenceless Palestinians are on their own? South African Aparteid was only ended with the support of all African frontline states. Of course what Abbas means by Arab states are the Saudi and other GCC countries and Egypt, Dictatorships who are no more than puppets to US/Israeli designs in the region. What has Abbas to say about the Arab ‘arc of resistance’ Syria, Lebanon, Iraq plus the non Arab Iranians who are committed to liberating the Palestinians. The PLO’s statements http://english.wafa.ps/page.aspx?id=zbyLEda96057575031azbyLEd are well meaning but all subject to President Abbas’ veto, which he wields like those he wishes “can go to hell”. The Palestinian’s situation is so weak they must find unity between the PA and Hamas, and forge a relationship and a common plan of action with the ‘arc of resistance’. Otherwise they will be forced [by economic and military means] into complying with US/Israeli dictats.