100 Most Recent Comments


Mooser
September 21, 2017, 4:21 pm

“It is, however, totally different ballgame to scream on every corner that you are indeed a Jew and you oppose the only Jewish state.”

Another thing the “Jewish nation” is entirely unable to prevent. Singly, or in groups. Some nation.

John O
September 21, 2017, 4:20 pm

@Boris

“I believe Ireland has the right of return.”

Wrong.

If you have an Irish grandparent, you can get an Irish passport, provided you can prove the fact with the necessary certificates.

Ireland is a member of the European Union, so EU citizens are free to work and live in Ireland, and many have already done so.

Neither constitutes a “right of return” along the lines of the “right of return” of all Jews to immigrate to Israel.

Mooser
September 21, 2017, 4:06 pm

. Go figure.”

I see the problem, “Keith”. You have the same first name as that Ellison guy. “Yonah” gets you mixed up.

amigo
September 21, 2017, 3:48 pm

“I believe Ireland has the right of return.”.Boris.

Wrong again Boris.

A right of return refers to those who are citizens of the Irish Republic , that is to say they left Ireland for Foreign shores for whatever reason and can return at anytime they choose.Their children and Grandchildren have the right to receive on application an Irish Passport.They , having never been in Ireland are not exercising a “right of return.They are exercising a right to go to Ireland and live there as does any other Irish citizen.

Ireland , as a normal functioning democracy which affords equal rights to all it,s citizens does not need to bring in fake Irish people to combat a demographic problem , such as the rogue entity does.

So I will thank you not to put us in the same bracket as your tin pot racist , so called democracy.

larick
September 21, 2017, 3:24 pm

You’re probably right. I was using $30k x 5 shows, but it’s probably only 4 per wk. Whatever, her weekly is probably above 40%/35% of what the population in this country makes A YEAR! To keep us confused about the class divide here and globally. Keep us deep into the weeds w/o seeing U.S. murderous imperialsim, including funding/backing the crimes of Israel. A good investment in the status quo while seeming to be for “change”. Useful.

DaBakr
September 21, 2017, 3:21 pm

@mr

The far left is notorious for having skin as thin as tissue paper. jvp or bds, sip, etc could have been their screaming their heads off and MW would have been pleased with ANY coverage that would have mustered. just look at those photos of violent extreme jdl members. why weren’t they arrested? one of the typical ridiculous commenters here actually asked.

Roger waters does not lack for publicity and I am fairly certain he is either backed by and possibly compensated by the billion dollar palestinian pr movement though I’m sure it’s as secretive and clandestine as any aipac venture could be.

Misterioso
September 21, 2017, 3:10 pm

@Boris

“I believe Ireland has the right of return.”

If one is of Irish descent, it helps him/her to become a citizen of Ireland.

However, unlike those foreign Jews who poured into Palestine before and during the British Class A Mandate and thereafter, those seeking or granted Irish citizenship are not permitted to kill, dispossess, brutalize, oppress, imprison without charge, torture and expel the native Irish or seize their homes and other properties and destroy their towns and villages. In short, your response is utterly inane.

I am fully aware that “…not every Jew chooses to live in Israel.” Indeed, more and more of them are abandoning Zionism and Israel and becoming dedicated supporters of the Palestinian people.

As for your ridiculous and long since debunked assertion that “…it is the Jews who are indigenous to the Land of Israel AKA Palestine,” I again refer you to among many other genetic studies:

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087/full
Front. Genet., 21 June 2017 | https://doi.org/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087
The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish
Recent genetic samples from bones found in Palestine dating to the Epipaleolithic (20000-10500 BCE) showed remarkable resemblance to modern day Palestinians.

BTW, The Jebusite/Canaanites, ancestors of today’s Palestinians, founded Jerusalem around 3000 BCE. Originally known as Jebus, the first recorded reference to it as “Rushalimum” (or “Urussalim”) appears in Egyptian Execration Texts of the nineteenth century BCE, nearly 800 years before it is alleged King David was born. (Thus far, no archaeological evidence, or more importantly, writings of contemporaneous civilizations, have been found that prove Solomon or David actually existed. Nor has any evidence been discovered to confirm that the Jewish exodus from Egypt ever occurred.) To quote the renowned Jewish Israeli writer/columnist, Uri Avnery: “[David and Solomon’s] existence is disproved, inter alia, by their total absence from the voluminous correspondence of Egyptian rulers and spies in the Land of Canaan.” (“A Curious National Home,” by Uri Avnery, May 13/17 –
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1494589093/)

Enough said. You live in a Zionist fantasy world.

DaBakr
September 21, 2017, 2:59 pm

Ironic that the discussion on hate speech laws never brings up the fact it was always conservatives, here and in the US that opposed hate speech inclusions for the exact reason stated above by the round table members…. That it would eventually be manipulated to include things it was never intended to include. But this is a prime example of the dangers of far left politics in action. Punish to correct. It always works fine in theory.
And of course there are far right laws that have been abused as well but that’s not the topic here.

The guilty hand wringing and confused so-called Israeli woman helped along by the audience was a chaplinesque depiction of indoctrination by ostracism

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 2:58 pm

@Talkback

You only get to support permanent ethnic cleansing and dispossesion. And Nonjews in Israel are not regarded as being part of its “national collective”.

Bull. The most clear cut example of that are the Russian Christians married to Jews. They serve in the IDF, obey the laws of the state and have 0 housing or job discrimination. The population and most politicians overwhelmingly supports further increasing their civil rights protections with the religious establishment being the major blockade. Another example are the Sons of the New Testament Party which are Palestinians who seek full integration and the Likud party this term is creating laws to facilitate that integration.

Israel has a proven track record of integrating people that are willing to live under Israeli law as Israels into the national collective. The same way they expanded the definition of the state from Ashkenazi to include Mizrahi Jews early on. The definition of “Jewish” is a social construction, can expand and has expanded several times.

ROFL. The Palestinians claim to Palestine is based on being citizens of the mandated State of Palestine and their descendants.

So where does one find this list of Palestinian citizens? Who was the issuing authority? Where was their headquarters located?

Your claim to Palestine is consistently based on the claim that ONLY the Jews of today and as such are the DNA descendants of ancient Hebrews

When have I made that claim? I’ve tended to find that whole claim a racist load of crap.

Nope. You don’t support the human rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland. Again, you are just lying.

You asked this question two days ago and I said that I do. I’m not sure how you would know if I were lying about my opinions that claims sounds bizarre on its face. I support Palestinians refugees right to return. I don’t support expanding this definition to foreign born descendants.

“Palestinians are a people speaking an Eastern Arabian Peninsula dialect of Arabic and worshipping an Eastern Arabian Peninsula God.”

Of course. They were arabized after the Arabian conquest.

Which means they aren’t the original people anymore. They lost their culture.

Neither do Israelites or Israelis. Relevant is that Palestinians are a constitutive people since 1925 and Jews will never be.

Israeli Jews most certainly are.

Only because you fail to understand that the Arabians didn’t colonize Palestine. They only conquered it. Their descendants make only up to 5% of today’s Palestinians. But again. It is irrelevant. The relevant question is who had the right to determine Palestine’s future in 1947/48. The obvious answer is: Only the citizens of Palestine.

No the obvious answer is the government of that territory if it is capable of still governing. In 1947 the British government could or would no longer provide a monopoly on force and thus there was no single government for Palestine. The power falls back to the constituent nations. The government that replaced the British came out of the militias of the Yishuv, the Israeli government.

Again, you mistake Palestinians for Arabians. But please enligthen us how Jews came to into the posession of the Land of Canaan and how long they ruled it.

No one knows. We start seeing strong signs of a Jewish civilization during the Babylonian conquest and something like a semi-independent Jewish civilization around the 6-7th century BCE. Most likely this civilization arose from a hybrid of Babylonian elites and indigenous natives. Our civilization continues to evolve, is conquered by the Greeks and then takes on Hellenistic elements. The religion expands independently of the nationality, even before the Roman conquest as people worship the God of Judaea. Our civilization in Palestine is badly damaged in the first Roman-Jewish war 69-73 CE and finished off completely by 134 CE. So over a period of over 700 years we were the dominant culture and ruled most aspects. We ruled entirely independently for a bit more than a century.

But please prove me wrong and quote someone who calls for a “new holocaust”. And then we are going to have a look if Israel allready has been doing it to Palestinians.

I’ve already pointed to you doing it. You feel that mass murder is justified because settlers aren’t people and somehow you are supporting international law.

Your delegitimizing rhetoric in the above about Israelis is also genocidal. Normal people who want political reform not genocide don’t talk in absolutist terms about ethnic conflicts. The people who do talk that way are the genocide advocates.

Kay24
September 21, 2017, 2:55 pm

I must say I watch Maddow, because her coverage of the Russian investigation can be interesting. That said, of course she does not mention Israel or refer to it’s crimes. but then which journalist does, in any of the news channels? No one has the courage to mention the words “occupation” or “illegal settlements”, and knowing that the parasitic nation is given billions of dollars by American tax payers, the most aid to any nation, I would think it would be a topic of interest for the American people to know how it it spent, the crimes against humanity, the Palestinian homes demolished, and miles long illegal settlements, which the US has condemned, and that this is the nations that kills civilians, at the slightest excuse. It is time they
informed the public that Israel is not the real victim in this conflict.
I guess to do so would be the end of their careers. It is a sickening situation.

DaBakr
September 21, 2017, 2:49 pm

No. Yiddish is the language of the khazzer soul. Anyone who is a zionist in addition to Ashkenazi has no soul to begin with.

larick
September 21, 2017, 2:47 pm

“Entertainer”….Right on. To the tune of the Fiddler song; “Gatekeeper Gatekeeper find me a latch, I’ll keep your secrets locked up in a hatch. No one will recognize the evil you do, I’ll keep ’em watching with minds shut like glue.”
Do we think that Comcast is going to pay someone $8 million a year ($30k per performance) to tell us the truth? “Actor” is all…..doing her job, which is to muddy the waters so the 1% can continue to make billions by killing.

Kay24
September 21, 2017, 2:43 pm

Maybe not, but today the fat guy in NK has likened Trump’s UN speech to a barking dog. I guess when you keep insulting others, they can hit back 10 times harder too! Having no clue as to how NK must be handled, Trump is under the illusion that calling other’s names, like he does at home, will solve the problem.

JosephA
September 21, 2017, 2:38 pm

Jesse, thanks very much for this report. Artists are a powerful group, despite today’s military-industrial-complex reality. Truly, the pen IS mightier than the sword.

Ossinev
September 21, 2017, 2:38 pm

@jeffB
1) I directly quoted what YOU said not yours truly. Now you are saying that these words are somehow in retrospect not YOUR words. Not interested in your explanation – see below.
2) I have an Honours Degree in Ancient and Modern History from a respected UK University. WTF gives you the right to claim that I don`t know anything about Tudor History / “Israeli” History/Byzantine History/the Western Eastern split in the Roman Empire Gauls / Goths /Visigoths/Vandals /Crusaders/ Mongols etc etc etc. Fascinated by the concept of this alleged “First of wave of Israelis” but not interested in an explanation -see below. Your timeline / logic indicates that it was just after the Arab conquest of Palestine and that these “people” identified themselves somehow as “Israelis”. Even more bizarrely you are stating that their role/avowed intent call it what you like was to restore the Palestinian population to Palestine. FFS !!! Interesting point nevertheless as you would appear to be conceding that the native Palestinians have been in Palestine (part of which with deliberately undeclared borders is now called Israel) and have been native to the land for around 1400 years. A significant but spurious and dishonest argument amongst your fellow Zionist travellers is that the native Palestinians are somehow interlopers/infiltrators who arrived at the turn of the 19th century and have no genuine long standing historical connection to Palestine.
3) You are stating that “a second group of Israelis ” whatever / whenever that was in your mindset discovered by sheer coincidence don`t you know that the “Byzantines” were occupying a “Jewish provence (sic)” and they saw it as a”moral obligation” to leapfrog over the 1400 years of Palestinian residence in the land and using the Zionist timeline go back 2000 years and “restore” the land to the modern practitioners of a religious cult started up by a small group of Semitic people who appear to have arrived from somewhere in South West Asia kicked out the original inhabitants and set up their own little mini Kingdom and were put in their place when they decided to refuse to accept Provincial status from Imperial Rome.All of the latter over 2000 years ago.
3) “Finally the Jews who migrated did so from Eastern Europe and Arab countries where they faced extermination not from Brooklyn. You are should really rethink the ethics of making light of the horrific human suffering, your people played a decent role in that led to the creation of Israel”
No mention of the role of the Nakba. No mention of the fact that your Zionist Israel encouraged and welcomed these migrations to create a viable “Jewish” demographic in the State of Israel.
No one other than extreme right wing nutters here in the UK “makes light of the horrific human suffering” of the Jews in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. However it is understandable that people tend to become more than a little bit cynical when the “Holocaust” has been used time and time again by Zionist Jews to justify their colonisation of another peoples land and their ongoing barbaric crimes against the native Palestinians. Plus reluctantly resorting to the whataboutery that you Zionists are so enamoured of there have been other horrific sufferings inflicted on various peoples/races/members of religious cults throughout modern history. Probably the worst examples in recent centuries have been the horrors of the Western slave trade and Belgian colonialism in West Africa ( yes and I do know that the Arabs were the original leading actors in the slave trade ).

As for Brooklyn during my time in Palestine I was amazed by the number of Israeli Jews in uniform who I mistook for New Yorkers and also a significant if fewer number who spoke pure BBC received English. If you care to watch/listen to interviews of Israeli Jews in Israel it is is really creepy just how many of these speak Brooklyn or Sandhurst.

Your final comment is simply gross and ends my dialogue with you as you appear in your efforts to justify the totally unjustifiable to be spiralling out of any sort of the control you may have had when you joined this forum.My “people ” resisted and fought the Nazis and died in their hundreds of thousands during the Blitz and the war because of that. To casually throw in a comment that “they played a decent role in the Holocaust” is nauseating and sums up your twisted intellectual capacity when it comes to defending Zionism and your beloved Israel.

JosephA
September 21, 2017, 2:32 pm

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

eljay
September 21, 2017, 2:28 pm

|| Boris: … And it is the Jews who are indigenous to the Land of Israel AKA Palestine. ||

Jewish is a religion-based identity. There is no “Land of Israel”. Palestinians – non-Jews and Jews alike – are the indigenous people of Palestine.

Marnie
September 21, 2017, 2:11 pm

Speaking of BS, MSNBCs zionist darling, Andrea Mitchell, mentioned israel/netanyahoo twice in the space of a minute wrt earthquake in Mexico City and the assistance they were receiving from around the world – israel/netanyahoo mentioned first among the other nations assisting (no mention of u.s.). It was disgusting, as is her usual. Except that time she didn’t do it. She must have gotten a zionist tune-up for that one.

Andrea Mitchell suggests State Dep’t staged ‘fake news’ in Jerusalem with Kushner, Netanyahu and no press
US Politics
Allison Deger on August 25, 2017

Talkback
September 21, 2017, 1:48 pm

JeffB: “The Byzantine civilization that existed was mostly annihilated and replaced with an Arab / Muslim civilization.”

Nope. The natives were arabized and forced to convert.

“… but the people you call the Palestinians do have continuity. with the civilization of the Islamic Arab invaders. They do not have continuity with the Roman / Byzantine civilization that existed prior.”

Nope. See above.

“An argument that all human migrations are illegitimate …”

???

JeffB: “… and there is some moral obligation to restore all previous civilizations that existed in a place …”

Let’s restore the previous State of Palestine within its borders under mandate.

JeffB: “… then quite ironically it not only applies both to the Palestinians as the victims of invasion but it also equally applies to them as invaders.”

Again, the Palestinians as such never invaded Palestine. They were conquered and then arabized.

Jonathan Ofir
September 21, 2017, 1:45 pm

Emory Riddle, this site is funded by JVP? I did not know. Got any proof? Actually I could have called him worse – Holocaust denier for example. But I don’t think the evidence supports that, while my claim is supported.
But that “JVP funded” claim sounds a lot like the Gilad Atzmon accusation of me as “JVP merchant” http://mondoweiss.net/2017/04/atzmons-against-merchant/
What’s all this with JVP, funding and mercantile?

Talkback
September 21, 2017, 1:36 pm

JeffB: “I get to support a consistent morality that allows for a broad and inclusive national definition as demonstrated by Israeli’s excellent track record on integrating people from all over the world into a single national collective. ”

You only get to support permanent ethnic cleansing and dispossesion. And Nonjews in Israel are not regarded as being part of its “national collective”. That’s reserved for Jews only. Again, you just lying and turning everything upside down.

JeffB: “I get to oppose racist constructs about land claims based on DNA consistently.”

ROFL. The Palestinians claim to Palestine is based on being citizens of the mandated State of Palestine and their descendants. Your claim to Palestine is consistently based on the claim that ONLY the Jews of today and as such are the DNA descendants of ancient Hebrews and therefore have a title to this land. Again, you just lying and turning everything upside down.

JeffB: “I can unapologetically support human rights for all, races not just favored ethnicities.”

Nope. You don’t support the human rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland. Again, you are just lying.

JeffB: “Palestinians are a people speaking an Eastern Arabian Peninsula dialect of Arabic and worshipping an Eastern Arabian Peninsula God.”

Of course. They were arabized after the Arabian conquest.

JeffB: “They have no continuity.”

Neither do Israelites or Israelis. Relevant is that Palestinians are a constitutive people since 1925 and Jews will never be.

JeffB: “That doesn’t mean they have to be expelled but their claims to being the descendants of the people who lived there then is rather dubious.”

Only because you fail to understand that the Arabians didn’t colonize Palestine. They only conquered it. Their descendants make only up to 5% of today’s Palestinians. But again. It is irrelevant. The relevant question is who had the right to determine Palestine’s future in 1947/48. The obvious answer is: Only the citizens of Palestine. That rules out at more than half of the Jews who were present in Palestine.

JeffB: “The Palestinians owe their presence to acts of violence and never set it right with the Byzantines.”

Again, you mistake Palestinians for Arabians. But please enligthen us how Jews came to into the posession of the Land of Canaan and how long they ruled it.

JeffB: “As for Holocaust justification we see on this board daily and regularly calls for a new holocaust.”

What we actually see is that you are suffering from Holocaust psychosis and compulsive lying. But please prove me wrong and quote someone who calls for a “new holocaust”. And then we are going to have a look if Israel allready has been doing it to Palestinians.

ckg
September 21, 2017, 1:02 pm

She sticks her neck out for nobody. She doesn’t want to be the next Valerie Plame.

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 12:48 pm

@RoHa

She’s an American news commentator on television. She’s hosts the #1 rated news analysis show among liberals. She’s well known for lengthy but interesting side tracks, lots of quality independent research, digging into depth (for television) on topics… Politically she’s about where Nancy Pelosi is, and arguably sets the media bar for the left edge of mainstream discourse.

She does excellent coverage of military issues and foreign policy issues. However her primary focus is on issues of execution. For example Congress having abdicated its role with regard to oversight relative to the executive branch, and the constant fights for influence between the State Department and the Defense Department. She’s rather mainstream on the actual policy objectives of the United States her focus is mostly on the debates between government factions. Conversely on economic issues she tends to have a left vs. right focus.

This is frustrating for your typical MW leftist who expects her to hold opinions on foreign policy objectives she simply doesn’t hold, i.e. in line with their objectives for radical change in the direction of USA policy.

So for example she supported the first Iraq war but has blistering criticism for the timing and the environment of the congressional debate. She supports the war on terror but is aggressive in her criticism of how the war authorizations are being handled.

Sulphurdunn
September 21, 2017, 12:46 pm

Ms. Maddow makes $7 million a year at MSNBC.

genesto
September 21, 2017, 12:31 pm

Rachel is just an entertainer with a successful show, so she assiduously avoids anything that would anger the Zionist crowd and jeopardize her ratings. She’s far from being the serious-minded, in-depth journalist many portray her to be. Instead, she does segments like this that don’t add anything to the discourse. I stopped watching her years ago.

When I watch a news program I want NEWS, not entertainment!

Boris
September 21, 2017, 12:24 pm

I believe Ireland has the right of return.

BTW, not every Jew chooses to live in Israel.

And it is the Jews who are indigenous to the Land of Israel AKA Palestine.

festus
September 21, 2017, 12:22 pm

I believe Powell said this “could be” anthrax. And then fear mongered. Pathetic company man.

JLewisDickerson
September 21, 2017, 12:19 pm

P.S. 2ND AVENUE EL & 3RD AVENUE EL MOVIE FOOTAGE:

steelo
Published on Jul 4, 2012
Hosted by the late transit historian Roger Arcara , this film goes on a trip up both the eastside 2nd & 3rd ave. el lines . Going first to QUEENS via the Queensboro Bridge branch, then uptown to the Bronx via the Bergen Avenue Cut-OFF. The second part of this movie takes a trip up the 3rd Ave EL in MANHATTAN & THE BRONX . The 2nd Ave. EL was abandon in two parts , north of 60th st. in 1940, south of 60th st in 1942. The BERGEN AVE. CUT-OFF operation was taken over by the 3rd Ave. line until 1946 , then the structure was torn down around 1950. Not counting some branches which was eliminated in earlier years., the 3rd ave line south of 149th st was abandon in the early to mid 1950’s .north of 149th st the mainline of the 3rd ave. line not counting branches was abandon in Apr. of 1973.

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 12:19 pm

John O

I was afraid the “maps and diagrams” would go over your head. I lifted it from a classic of English humour, “1066 and All That”, which – appositely – is all about getting your history lessons all wrong and muddled.

Fair enough. Know some English history. Know pretty much 0 of your popular media. Took a look at the book, and it is readily and cheaply available here seems like a riot so bought it. Thanks for the recommendation.

Boris
September 21, 2017, 12:15 pm

Elhaik’s work has been long debunked.

Time to change links…

JLewisDickerson
September 21, 2017, 12:15 pm

NETFLIX DVD:
The Golden Age of 2nd Avenue
1968 NR Rated NR 1hr
Average of 801 ratings: 3 stars
This documentary chronicles the early 20th-century halcyon days of Yiddish theater in New York City, featuring photos, music and archival clips from historic Yiddish films, as well as candid interviews with luminaries such as Isaac Bashevis Singer. Narrated by noted Broadway and Hollywood actor Herschel Bernardi, the program also includes performances by Paul Muni, Molly Picon, Maurice Schwartz and other Yiddish theater icons.
Cast: Herschel Bernardi, Theodore Bikel, Isaac Bashevis Singer, more…
AVAILABILITY: Very long wait
LINK ➤ https://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/The-Golden-Age-of-2nd-Avenue/70122495?strackid=6fafc3fed8962411_1_srl&trkid=201891639

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 12:08 pm

@Misterioso

Whatever the position of American Jews is, there is no special provision in international law that enables Israel to violate it with impunity.

I would rethink this line since it has two critical errors. The first is conflating international law with the declarations s of the UN. International law is the set of rules generally regarded and accepted as binding in relations between states and between nations. The UN claims to make international law. Were that true then we would generally see states and nations bend to the UN on a host of issues on which they have ruled that those states and nations are in disagreement with. That doesn’t happen in many cases Israel being just one, ergo the UN does not make international law. For there to be law by definition there needs to be an entity capable of enforcement, the UN has proven itself in many areas not to be an entity capable of enforcement of its declarations. So what comes out of the UN is opinion about international law not international law.

The second claim I’d dispute is that Israel has agreed to be bound. There are video and written statements where they have said the opposite. I was at the UN this year when the Israeli ambassador to the UN Danny Danon unequivocally and unapologetically rejected the concept that the UN General Assembly was a legitimate governing body. I should mention other countries, like the United States, Russia and China have made similar claims. And for that particular comment I saw live, you can’t see it in the video, but Ambassador Haley was there and nodded her head in agreement. She has turned out on many issues to be one of the very few bright spots of the Trump administration.

The role the UN has played is a good place for countries to discuss and debate things. It has successfully avoided misunderstandings due to non-communication that have in previous times caused wars. On many issues it has facilitated negotiation and compromise. It provides some effective humanitarian services. It does have quite a few positives. But that does not make it the ultimate body of authority in the world. No one agrees to that quite self evidently.
Moreover as an American one of the basic concepts we have is that governments need to have the consent of the governed. The UN does not have the consent of the American people nor the Israeli people to play the role you claim for it.

So your claim basically boils down to Israel disagrees with an entity that has a loud and important voice with respect to the conflict. And I agree with you there, Israel does disagree with the UN. I think the UN’s opinions are asine so FWIW I happen to agree with Israel in mostly ignoring what the UN has to say on the issue.

For example the definition of an occupation requires that the military in control of a territory make no permanent claim. A formal annexation is the strongest possible permanent claim. Agreeing that Israel Annexed East Jerusalem and still calling it an occupying power is IMHO simply stupid. It literally sort of statement made by people who don’t understand what the words mean.

The AJC does have pretty strong ties to the UN. It is not uncommon for AJC, American UN, and Israeli UN staff to shuffle seats depending on changes from USA elections. We could, since this is an AJC thread, have a more interesting conversation than the usual “Israeli is a poopy head / is not” type conversation. I’d love to talk about and debate the AJC’s role in the UN and how they have worked over the decades to try and facilitate peace and understanding in an effectual way. Since most BDSers are activists AJC provides a good example of what effectual activism that really does change policy looks like.

eljay
September 21, 2017, 12:02 pm

|| JeffB: @Eljay

And I noticed you didn’t answer the question about how the Zionists tricked Emperor Domitian into not understand that Judaea never existed and everyone converted to Judaism originally. ||

Being Jewish doesn’t mean you’re Judaean. Being from Judaea doesn’t mean you’re Jewish. What the Zionists did or did not do to Domitian has no bearing on the fact that Jewish is a religion-based identity that does not require any ties to geographic Palestine.

gamal
September 21, 2017, 11:47 am

” “1066 and All That”, which – appositely – is all about getting your history lessons all wrong and muddled.”

well you say that John but it is exceptionally accurate and quite prophetic, “that there should be a great many more countries: this was A Bad Thing as it was the cause of increased geography”,

and its grim conclusion long before Fukiyama, who may not have got the joke,

Chapter LXII

A Bad Thing

America was thus clearly top nation, and History came to a .

Misterioso
September 21, 2017, 11:35 am

@DaBakr

Sigh.
You live in a hasbara induced fantasy world.

Misterioso
September 21, 2017, 11:33 am

@Kay24

Apparently, neither Trump nor Netanyahu are familiar with the old adage “lie down with dogs and you’ll get fleas.”

Elizabeth Block
September 21, 2017, 11:30 am

It is said, “Begin as you mean to go on.” It is phrased as a command, but it reflects a simple statement of fact: “As you begin, so you will go on.” It is sad, and frightening, to think that the Palestinian Authority has set for itself a precedent of injustice and tyranny.

Misterioso
September 21, 2017, 11:19 am

@Ossinev

Well said!!

BTW, my great grandfather was dispossessed and driven out of Ireland by the British during the 19th century. Do I have the right to go to Ireland and kick out the present occupants of what was my great grandfather’s land and take it over? Certainly not!! It would never enter my mind or that of any sane person. The Zionist argument that today’s Jews are descendants of the ancient Hebrews (long since disproven) and thereby had the right to dispossess and expel well over one million indigenous Palestinian Arabs between late 1947 and 1967 and create an expansionist, racist, apartheid, occupier “Jewish state” argument is utterly ludicrous and racist to the core.

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 11:05 am

@MHughes976

Political rights in any place or at any time depend, with minor exceptions, on being an inhabitant willing to live in peace, obey the law and pay taxes, where ‘willing to live in peace’ means not owing your presence to an act of violence that has not been set right by an agreement and actively maintaining the violent act’s results.

I could agree with everything you wrote except for that. You run into the same problem. The Palestinians owe their presence to acts of violence and never set it right with the Byzantines.

As for Holocaust justification we see on this board daily and regularly calls for a new holocaust. I’d say you might want to talk to your fellow BDSers about that. I’d love to see the BDS movement move away from your rhetoric that calls Israeli “axe wielding marauders” so as to justify your imagined future genocide.

John O
September 21, 2017, 11:05 am

@JeffB

I was afraid the “maps and diagrams” would go over your head. I lifted it from a classic of English humour, “1066 and All That”, which – appositely – is all about getting your history lessons all wrong and muddled.

Misterioso
September 21, 2017, 11:04 am

JeffB

Pure bull crap!! Unworthy of further comment.

Misterioso
September 21, 2017, 10:58 am

JeffB

Whatever the position of American Jews is, there is no special provision in international law that enables Israel to violate it with impunity.

As a UN member, Israel is bound to obey the UN Charter, the Fourth Geneva Convention, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Rome Statue, etc.

(A) Security Council Resolution 446 (22 March 1979) “[Affirms] once more that the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 is applicable to the Arab territories OCCUPIED [my emphasis] by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem,
“1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories OCCUPIED [my emphasis] since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;..”

(B) Security Council Resolution 465 (1 March 1980) “determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories OCCUPIED [my emphasis] since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity…”

(C) Israel’s 1980 annexation of East Jerusalem was unanimously rejected by the UN Security Council in Resolution 476 (June 30, 1980): “all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the OCCUPYING [my emphasis] Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

(D) On 17 December 1981, the UNSC unanimously passed Resolution 497, which declared Israel’s 14 December 1981 annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights “null and void.”

(E) In accordance with the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, ratified by Israel, and further underscoring the illegality of the settlements, Part 2, Article 8, section B, paragraph viii of the Rome Statute of the International Court (1998) defines “the transfer directly or indirectly by the Occupying power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it OCCUPIES [my emphasis]” as a War Crime, indictable by the International Criminal Court.

(F) On 24 February 2004, the U.S. State Department reaffirmed its earlier position in a report entitled Israel and the OCCUPIED [my emphasis] Territories, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: “Israel OCCUPIED [my emphasis] the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights after the 1967 War…. The international community does not recognize Israel’s sovereignty over any part of the OCCUPIED [my emphasis] territories.”

(G) In its 2004 ruling, the International Court of Justice unanimously ruled that “No territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force shall be recognized as legal.” The World Court denoted this principle a “corollary” of the U.N. Charter and as such “customary international law” and a “customary rule” binding on all member States of the United Nations.

(H) In the summer of 1967, “[t]he legal counsel of the Foreign Ministry, Theodor Meron, was asked [by then Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol] whether international law allowed settlement in the newly conquered land. In a memo marked ‘Top Secret,’ Meron wrote unequivocally: ‘My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention.’” (New York Times, 10 March 2006)

(I) US Secretary of State, John Kerry: “The US views all of the settlements as illegitimate.” (13 August 2013, Reuters Video)

(J) British Foreign Secretary William Hague regarding Jewish settlements in the West Bank (5 April 2011): “This is not disputed territory. It is OCCUPIED [my emphasis] Palestinian territory and ongoing settlement expansion is illegal under international law…”

(K) UN Security Council Resolution 2334, December 23, 2016: “Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and reaffirming, inter alia, the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force,
“Reaffirming the obligation of Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, and recalling the advisory opinion rendered on 9 July 2004 by the International Court of Justice,
“Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions,….”
“1. Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace;
“2. Reiterates its demand that Israel immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and that it fully respect all of its legal obligations in this regard;
“3. Underlines that it will not recognize any changes to the 4 June 1967 lines, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties through negotiations;..”

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 10:56 am

@Ossinev

As I said, take it up with yourstruely he’s the one who made that claim not I. As for history, you don’t know English history like the Tudor dynasty. Why would you expect to know anything about Israeli history? Now I will tell you and then you will come back with some sort of snark.

After Judaea was destroyed by the Romans there emerged a Roman civilization in Palestine. As the Eastern and Western empire split because of geography it ended up in the Eastern side, Byzantine. However it was in the part of the Byzantine territory that fell to the Muslims was invaded and destroyed during the Muslim conquest. The Byzantine civilization that existed was mostly annihilated and replaced with an Arab / Muslim civilization. A combination of war, state terror and assimilation playing out over a few centuries. That civilization has been conquered multiple times, the government has been replaced, but the people you call the Palestinians do have continuity. with the civilization of the Islamic Arab invaders. They do not have continuity with the Roman / Byzantine civilization that existed prior.

An argument that all human migrations are illegitimate and there is some moral obligation to restore all previous civilizations that existed in a place then quite ironically it not only applies both to the Palestinians as the victims of invasion but it also equally applies to them as invaders. In the same way it also apples to the Jews both as “invaders” and the victims of the Roman invasion.

Finally the Jews who migrated did so from Eastern Europe and Arab countries where they faced extermination not from Brooklyn. You are should really rethink the ethics of making light of the horrific human suffering, your people played a decent role in that led to the creation of Israel.

Misterioso
September 21, 2017, 10:48 am

@Boris

Patent nonsense.

Foreign Jews had the same right to Palestine as Irish Catholics and Mexican atheists, i.e., none whatsoever. Therein lies the root of the conflict.

Furthermore, for the record:

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087/full
Front. Genet., 21 June 2017 | https://doi.org/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087

The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish

Recent genetic samples from bones found in Palestine dating to the Epipaleolithic
(20000-10500 BCE) showed remarkable resemblance to modern day Palestinians.

EXCERPTS:
“The non-Levantine origin of AJs [Ashkenazi Jews] is further supported by an ancient DNA analysis of six Natufians and a Levantine Neolithic (Lazaridis et al., 2016), some of the most likely Judaean progenitors (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2002; Frendo, 2004). In a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans.”

“Overall, the combined results are in a strong agreement with the predictions of the Irano-Turko-Slavic hypothesis (Table 1) and rule out an ancient Levantine origin for AJs, which is predominant among modern-day Levantine populations (e.g., Bedouins and Palestinians). This is not surprising since Jews differed in cultural practices and norms (Sand, 2011) and tended to adopt local customs (Falk, 2006). Very little Palestinian Jewish culture survived outside of Palestine (Sand, 2009). For example, the folklore and folkways of the Jews in northern Europe is distinctly pre-Christian German (Patai, 1983) and Slavic in origin, which disappeared among the latter (Wexler, 1993, 2012).”

Keith
September 21, 2017, 10:36 am

ROHA- “You made it! Denunciation by Yonah.”

Lordy, Lordy, if that is the criteria, then I had it made long ago. Yonah has a thing for me. Envy is such an unattractive emotion. Yet, in his case, understandable.

Keith
September 21, 2017, 10:28 am

MOOSER- “Hardly seems like an explosive charge to me.”

You mean to tell me THAT is what upset Yonah? Jeez, I just assumed that he was understandably jealous of my good looks. Go figure.

Keith
September 21, 2017, 10:22 am

YONAH FREDMAN- “Gentiles are not the evil other, but Keith is.”

Ah, recognition! Now take off your clown costume.

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 10:21 am

@Eljay

And I noticed you didn’t answer the question about how the Zionists tricked Emperor Domitian into not understand that Judaea never existed and everyone converted to Judaism originally.

RoHa
September 21, 2017, 10:12 am

And if that earns you condemnation from fellow Jews, it shows that those “fellow Jews” are a contemptible bunch, and the less you have to do with them, the better.

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 10:09 am

@John O

Take it up with yourstruely. He is the one who made that argument about the moral necessity to undo migrations, not I. I was just pointing out that his argument doesn’t show what he thinks it does.

I am a Zionist. I get to deal with the reality that humans are a migratory species and welcome immigrants. I get to support a consistent morality that allows for a broad and inclusive national definition as demonstrated by Israeli’s excellent track record on integrating people from all over the world into a single national collective. I get to oppose racist constructs about land claims based on DNA consistently. I can unapologetically support human rights for all, races not just favored ethnicities. I can critique Israel’s failures on human rights without having to call for genocidal level violations in response.

I’m not even sure how a map could prove what you wanted. Palestinians are a people speaking an Eastern Arabian Peninsula dialect of Arabic and worshipping an Eastern Arabian Peninsula God. They show no connection or knowledge of the Roman culture that existed prior to their migration, as demonstrated by the fact that they can possibly believe their own propaganda about the history of their country. They have no continuity. That doesn’t mean they have to be expelled but their claims to being the descendants of the people who lived there then is rather dubious.

Ossinev
September 21, 2017, 10:01 am

@jeffB
” Palestine was the homeland of the Christian Byzantine society that existed prior to the Muslim conquest that led to the migration of today’s Palestinians. The first wave of Israelis are acting on their moral obligation to restore them and end their occupation. But as soon as they did that another group of Israelis realized that those Byzantines were occupying a Jewish provence and that needed to be restored”

Palestine was is and will continue to be the homeland of those native to Palestine ie the Palestinians be they Palestinian Moslems , Palestinian Jews , Palestinian Christians or Palestinian Atheists. I can`t begin to fathom what you are saying/ imagining about this alleged “first group of Jews and the timeline and location of what they allegedly did. As for the second group I can only suppose that you are referring to the Zionism movement. As for these Zionists all of a sudden surprise shock horror discovering that these”Byzantines” in the seventh century were occupying a Jewish provence(sic) and that need to be restored 1400 years after the event with suitable stock from Brooklyn and North Finchley – well there you really are starting to dribble at a rate of knots.

Bumblebye
September 21, 2017, 9:58 am

Kneecapping?
Blatant terrorist tactic practised by various of the terror groups in Northern Ireland against dissenters.

MHughes976
September 21, 2017, 9:51 am

There is no obligation to restore land to – i.e. attribute exclusive political rights to – people on the ground that they are descended, either genetically or culturally, from former or even (if identifiable) original occupants. Political rights in any place or at any time depend, with minor exceptions, on being an inhabitant willing to live in peace, obey the law and pay taxes, where ‘willing to live in peace’ means not owing your presence to an act of violence that has not been set right by an agreement and actively maintaining the violent act’s results. Agreement includes tacit agreement – the time has come when no one concerned really objects, which is the situation with the First and Second American Nations. Former inhabitants who are forced out have a right of return unless and until they accept citizenship elsewhere, since a refugee who becomes (say) a British citizen must have the same rights and duties as me and I have no right of return to any other place. If you do exercise a right of return you do not have a right to any particular personal property unless something can be identified as particularly connected to you rather than any other individual. The basic ideas were explained, if explanation is needed, on the whole conclusively, I think, in Locke’s Second Treatise.
I would like ask the Moderators about accepting Nakba justification when I presume they would not accept someone saying ‘The Holocaust was morally right’ and when Holocaust and Nakba have a.certain equivalence in our rules.

Talkback
September 21, 2017, 9:46 am

Mooser: ““Talkback” (and of course, many others), I don’t know where you find the patience. But thanks.”

Thank you for your kind words. But is has nothing to do with patience. I’m just highly allergic to Zionist BS and their upside-down perversion of human values.

Talkback
September 21, 2017, 9:37 am

JeffB: “But there are almost none who consider the UN’s position, what you are calling “International law” to be just and fair. There are almost none that are disloyal to Israel.”

Yep, they have turned into supporters of violation of humaniatarian law and human rights. Real existing Zionism has basically turned thems into he Jewish equivalent of an Islamofascist and which is genuinely inhumane and only loyal to Jewish supremacism.

JeffB: “t will never be the case that the aggressive maximalist demands of the Palestinians as reflected in BDS will ever find anything but hard opposition from American Jews.”

This is a good example of what Leibowitz would call Judeonazism, too. The call for equality and human rights is considered to be an “aggressive maximalist demand” instead of what Zionists did in Palestine in 1948 and still are doing. That’s the ultimate upside-down perversion of human values. And that is exactly your game here on MW.

eljay
September 21, 2017, 9:35 am

… Residents of the Dheisheh camp say that an Israeli army commander, who the youth in Dheisheh refer to as “Captain Nidal”, has been threatening to intentionally disable Palestinians in the camp. “I will make half of you disabled and let the other half push the wheelchairs,” he has been reported as saying. …

That’s just Captain Israel’s Nidal’s coy way of saying he wishes Palestinians would act like Israelis so that they wouldn’t be a perceived as a demographic threat and he could breed with them.

JosephA
September 21, 2017, 9:29 am

Please, define your criteria for “a great speech”.

Talkback
September 21, 2017, 9:28 am

JeffB: “Palestine was the homeland of the Christian Byzantine society that existed prior to the Muslim conquest that led to the migration of today’s Palestinians.”

There was not migration. There was an Arabization and Muslimization of the native of Palestine. Only 5% of today’s Palestinians are considered to be descendants of Arabians.

JeffB: “The first wave of Israelis are acting on their moral obligation to restore them and end their occupation.”

Nope, they are Jewish foreigners who colonize Palestine. First under British de facto occupation and nowadays under Israel’s de facto and de jure occupation. It has been settler colonialism from the get go. You will never prove that any Jew of today is a biological descedant of an ancient Hebrew as you will never prove that any Nonjew or Palestinian of today is not. Racists like you only fake a “biological” continuity of a priarily religious group in a futile attempt to legitimize the criminal expulsion, denationalization, dispossession and the denial of self determination of the constitutive people of the former mandated State of Palestine.

John O
September 21, 2017, 9:08 am

Ethnic cleansing is a moral obligation. Discuss, and illustrate with maps and diagrams.

eljay
September 21, 2017, 8:48 am

|| JeffB: @Eljay

In your theory of Jewish being a purely religious based identity with no geographical component tied to Palestine … ||

Correct. Jewish is a religion-based identity acquired by:
– undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
– being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

No ties to the geographical region of Palestine are required.

Emory Riddle
September 21, 2017, 8:32 am

You called him a “Holocaust Revisionist”. The worst thing one can be called on this JVP funded website it seems.

Eva Smagacz
September 21, 2017, 8:17 am

This “Will you fellate a donkey for Israel, senator?” skit has been deliberately, systematically, scrubbed from the internet.
I cannot find video’s at all using “donkey, fellatio, donkey” search.

Which just tells you how on the point the skit was.28/33

I could still find a copy using “donkey, senator, Israel” search:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ce_1360619328

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 8:07 am

@yourstruly

No no you fail to understand the moral obligation. Palestine was the homeland of the Christian Byzantine society that existed prior to the Muslim conquest that led to the migration of today’s Palestinians. The first wave of Israelis are acting on their moral obligation to restore them and end their occupation. But as soon as they did that another group of Israelis realized that those Byzantines were occupying a Jewish provence and that needed to be restored. And since there is a moral obligation to restore land to its original inhabitants that’s what we have today.

They don’t disagree with your morality one bit. They are rather effectually carrying it out.

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 7:58 am

@Kay24

No Kay in meaningful numbers there aren’t. There are lots of American Jews that are concerned about Israel committing human rights abuses and would be willing to dialogue over addressing those. But there are almost none who consider the UN’s position, what you are calling “International law” to be just and fair. There are almost none that are disloyal to Israel. And there are almost none that would ever support the incredibly harsh terms of BDS even at its least destructive.

It may or may not be the case that the most pro-peace elements of the Israeli / Jewish community and the most pro-peace elements of the Palestinian community can find enough overlap to make a deal. It will never be the case that the aggressive maximalist demands of the Palestinians as reflected in BDS will ever find anything but hard opposition from American Jews.

Jews love their homeland and do not want to see her destroyed. If your goal is the destruction of Israel you are going to face strong American Jewish opposition not cooperation forever unavoidably.

JeffB
September 21, 2017, 7:48 am

@Eljay

In your theory of Jewish being a purely religious based identity with no geographical component tied to Palestine “as anyone who knows a bit of history would understand” I’d be curious to know…

What was the mechanism by which the Zionist propagandists manage to get Emperor Domitian to construct a large monument celebrating the victory over Judaea in the Via Sacra? Did Hertzl own a time machine, or was it Ben Gurion? How did they pull off this propaganda triumph? And how did they manage to convince a bunch of people to run around using the name of this I imagine fictional country as the name they applied to themselves for 19 centuries?

DaBakr
September 21, 2017, 6:53 am

Not one of his best but certainly a great speech. The people to whom it was aimed got the message loud and clear. Obviously, bds supporters would try to make a mockery of any Netanyahu speech but this one hit is mark anyway.

Dutch
September 21, 2017, 6:27 am

Remember Colin Powell? He brought anthrax into the UN – at least, that’s what he said it was. February 2013.

Rob Roy
September 21, 2017, 3:21 am

Bandolero, is that a little tongue-in-cheek?

RoHa
September 21, 2017, 2:59 am

Remind me who this Rachel Maddow person is, please.

Marnie
September 21, 2017, 2:24 am

I no longer have any inclination to watch Rachel Maddow. She clearly portrays israel as good guys and palestinians as terrorists, overtly or covertly. She has no credibility or honor.

Her lineup was a half-assed job.

I think about Hugo Chavez’ remarks about Bush and chuckle when I recall the laughs he got from it.

The world is laughing much harder though, I imagine, laughter and tears, over the inane, incoherent and unintelligent comments made by tRUMP and the bombastic, arrogant remarks of netanyahoo. What innovation israel has provided the world deals in death and destruction. Way to go, blight upon the nations!

Marnie
September 21, 2017, 2:10 am

“Finally, I doubt Nathan Perlmutter said what either you or Finkelstein is quoting him as saying in context. That sounds simply too strong and out of character.”

Shorter version JeffyBee –

US Citizen
September 21, 2017, 2:02 am

Maddow is a shill and a hack for AIPAC. Nary a word about illegal settler squat terrorism, the Occupation, Apartheid or crimes against humanity in respect to the Palestinians. Look no further than her to abrogate anything regarding justice for the Palestinians. She actually thinks she is a ‘journalist’. Sad commentary and shame on her although I doubt she would even care, it’s all about pleasing her jewish bosses.

Marnie
September 21, 2017, 1:51 am

I don’t know how long the earth will survive with the likes of netanyahu, tRUMP and Kim in these positions of power.

I am sickened by the site and sound off all 3 of them.

All that braggadocio is very dangerous. tRUMP thinks he drew a line. netanyahoo thinks he’s a statesman. Kim is continuing in his family’s tradition. They all belong to that exclusive club of idiots with power they should never have been given.

RoHa
September 21, 2017, 1:49 am

“The Oslo Accords are a rare moment in the conflict. For once in history, the two sides signed an agreement. And now, since the two sides have agreed on something, it defines legality and legitimacy.”

But since the Israelis broke the agreement, it no longer defines anything. This means, for example, that the Right of Return is back.

RoHa
September 21, 2017, 1:45 am

@MHughes

Quite right. I will add that “It won’t matter in a thousand years” may be a fine attitude to take towards a broken teacup, but is quite wrong for injustices. Such a view does nothing to lessen the injustice, but only makes more injustice seem acceptable. If we do not attempt to maintain justice now, we face a future without justice.

MalcolmLeftly
September 21, 2017, 1:23 am

Rachel is very good. However, she either understands the red line or it’s been inculcated without a conscious realization. If you grew up (perhaps) thinking any criticism weakens Israel it has to affect you does it not?

echinococcus
September 21, 2017, 1:09 am

J Walters,

The puzzling thing is how someone as THOROUGHLY progressive on all other issues could be so blindly oblivious and regressive on Palestine and Israel. And not just Maddow, … Elizabeth Warren … Bernie Sanders, Judy Woodruff, and others

Yeah, how come people so goddam “progressive” they never stopped cheering and egging on the Bushes and Obamas and Goerings of this world to do more and bloodier wars, so thoroughly “progressive” they never found any war that they would oppose, so progressively trying their best right now to also start WWIII or something just like it, are just exactly as “progressive” when it comes to Zionist invasion and war? What a thick mystery…

Boris
September 20, 2017, 11:48 pm

Well, Mooser, it is one thing not to eat kosher, marry a shiksa so you kids won’t be Jewish, and/or in whatever ways disconnect from the Jewish community.

It is, however, totally different ballgame to scream on every corner that you are indeed a Jew and you oppose the only Jewish state. That’s what earns you condemnation from fellow Jews.

Donald Johnson
September 20, 2017, 11:15 pm

I used to watch her semi regularly, maybe 20 percent of the time and never understood why people like her so much. She is not that progressive in foreign policy– if she were she would have to take a long hard look at many Democrats and not just on Palestine. This is true of most other MSNBC hosts afaik, except occasionally Chris Hayes, but I stopped watching them all last year.

Plus I think she treats her audience like we are morons. Or it comes across that way to me.

Bandolero
September 20, 2017, 10:10 pm

I wonder why Rachel didn’t put up Mahmud Ahmadinejad explaining in 2010 why he thought 9/11 was an inside job to serve Israeli interests.

yourstruly
September 20, 2017, 9:30 pm

Jews have a religious commandment to support Israel and fight BDS?

Contrariwise, together with the rest of humanity Jews have a moral obligation to oppose Israel and support BDS,

A moral obligation by dint of Zionist Israel’s occupation of Palestine, the homeland of the Palestinian people,

since the occupation of another people’s land is a form of enslavement, the Palestinian thereby has been reduced to the status of slave, the Israeli occupier now the slaveholder.

One is either on the side of the slave or the slaveholder.

once again a question of morality

not a commandment

JWalters
September 20, 2017, 8:55 pm

The puzzling thing is how someone as THOROUGHLY progressive on all other issues could be so blindly oblivious and regressive on Palestine and Israel. And not just Maddow, but many others. Elizabeth Warren at a recent town hall via C-SPAN seemed genuinely progressive and concerned about all humanity. Same for Bernie Sanders, Judy Woodruff, and others. Yeah, there is quite a lot of money involved, but it seems to me that’s not a sufficient explanation.

A possible answer is provided in “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” by John Perkins. He described how an agent of the oligarchy would approach a newly elected president, say in South America, and make them the classic Mafia offer they can’t refuse. Millions of dollars for yourself and your family, all well taken care of for the rest of your lives, or a bullet in your head. Some of these people might be willing to risk a bullet to their head. But they would not be willing to bring a terrible fate on their child or grandchild. A small shift in the target of the death threat could be all it takes to quiet even brave and principled people. And those deaths would be peanuts compared to the profits reaped from a war.

This possibility explains the anomaly, fits the current facts, such as zionists owning MSNBC, and fits the historical operating methods of Israel.
“Terrorism: How the Israeli state was won”
http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/terrorism-israeli-state

Mooser
September 20, 2017, 7:48 pm

” one is playing tennis without a net.”

“Playing tennis without a net”! Of course. I see exactly what you mean.

RoHa
September 20, 2017, 7:43 pm

Congratulations, Keith!

You made it! Denunciation by Yonah.

Mooser
September 20, 2017, 7:38 pm

“It is typically non-Jews who will tell you that you are Jewish, whether you like it or not.”

As opposed of course, to Jewish practice, which is to tell us that we can all be cut off, excommunicated, for a host of malfeasances and offenses, from anti-Zionism to violating kashruth, to inter-marriage. So I won’t let those non-Jews make me feel too comfortable.

Mooser
September 20, 2017, 7:30 pm

“Gentiles are not the evil other, but Keith is.”

“Yonah” , is Zionism “supported by the majority of the Rabbinate” or not? Hardly seems like an explosive charge to me.

eljay
September 20, 2017, 7:17 pm

|| Boris: … It is typically non-Jews who will tell you that you are Jewish, whether you like it or not. ||

But it’s typically Zionist Jews who will measure a Jew’s Jewishness, whether he likes it or not.

I don’t understand why Zionists hate Jews so much.

eljay
September 20, 2017, 6:57 pm

|| Mooser: … “3. To what lengths does Mr. Harris expect Jews to go in order to “reaffirm” their commitment to a “Jewish State”?”

To what lengths can Mr. Harris go to compel us to do these things? ||

I suppose it depends on the strength of his commitment to the “Jewish State”.

eljay
September 20, 2017, 6:54 pm

|| Boris: @eljay

There are plenty of atheists who call themselves Jews. So much for your first argument. … ||

An atheist can call himself whatever he wants. If he calls himself Jewish, it’s for one of two reasons:
– he underwent a religious conversion to Judaism; or
– he is descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

So much for your first rebuttal.

|| … As for the rest – they are not even worth a comment. ||

And yet you commented. So much for the rest of your rebuttal.

JosephA
September 20, 2017, 6:49 pm

Rachel Maddow really is strangely selective with her devotion to “PEP” (progressive, except for Palestine). Shame on her, and thanks for pointing this out.

JosephA
September 20, 2017, 6:47 pm

Hi Boris,

Were you born in Israel?

Boris
September 20, 2017, 6:44 pm

nah, just showing that I dig your game.

JLewisDickerson
September 20, 2017, 6:42 pm

RE: “I’ve had enough, Netanyahu, really. Go to Antarctica, rule over the penguins. They’ll nod to everything you say . . .” ~ Ofir

Boris
September 20, 2017, 6:41 pm

Wrong again, Mu-Mu

It is typically non-Jews who will tell you that you are Jewish, whether you like it or not.