I am encouraged by the wave of justified indignation, and spontaneous boycott movement, against the new Arizona law. Indeed, requiring citizens and legal resident to carry proof of their status at all times, and encouraging police to profile passersby who "look suspicious", runs counter to the soul of democracy. The bigots who put together the Arizona law should be made to pay. And hopefully it will be declared unconstitutional.
This is also a teaching opportunity, to explain to fellow Kossacks why the country I come from, Israel, has never really lived up to its "Middle East's Only Democracy" (TM) branding.
See? In Israel, laws like the Arizona one - and worse - have been in effect ever since independence. No, I'm not talking about the Occupation, but inside Israel proper.
Any resident sixteen years of age or older must at all times carry an Identity card, and present it upon demand to a senior police officer, head of Municipal or Regional Authority, or a policeman or member of the Armed forces on duty.
And guess against which ethnic group this requirement is enforced most often.... some more details and some personal anecdotes below.
In Israel, one of the rites of passage is going (sometime after your 16th birthday) to the Interior Ministry and getting your first ID card. And yes, you do tend to carry it with you at all times when leaving the home.
What happens it a police officer asks you for it and you don't have it? Well, in principle they could arrest you and you might spend a night (used to be a couple of nights) in jail. In practice, to Jewish-Israeli citizens who look and sound Jewish-Israeli, this rarely happens. Very rarely. I mean, they might get in trouble with the police if they engage in wrongdoing, but almost never they would be booked just for not carrying an ID.
Things slightly change if you are a non-Jewish Israeli. In 1988 I boarded the night bus from Tel Aviv to Eilat (extreme south of the country). Two Bedouin-Israeli youth were about to board, when a policeman came and started questioning them. They got smart and talked back. I know that in America you never talk back to police, but in Israel it is more common and socially acceptable, and Jews would usually get away with it. But being Bedouin, the policeman got mad and asked them for their ID's. They didn't have ID's on them. They didn't get to board the bus, instead they seemed to have gone on a field trip with the policeman.
Now, this goes on all the time. If you walk a typical Israeli downtown, especially in Jerusalem, you will always see police officers or soldiers "chatting" with some Arab-looking men and checking their ID's. The police are acting completely within their rights. See, that's the beauty: in Israel citizens don't really have inherent rights because there is no Constitution. There have been some "Basic Laws", including a "Human Rights and Dignity Law", representing an attempt to cobble together a quasi-Constitution. Former Chief Justice Aharon Barak has invented for them the self-serving, completely blown-out-of-proportion brand-name "the Constitutional Revolution". Truth be told, these laws are subject to change or cancellation by a 61-member majority of the 120-member Knesset - and they have been changed countless of times. Much worse: all these laws have gaping loopholes left in them for "security considerations" and "security measures", which allow all security forces to continue business as usual, including routine profiling and ID checking (see below for a partial list of these "security measures").
Recently I've become sick of hearing - either from Israelis or from right-wing Americans - how the rest of the world should learn from us if they want, say, to improve travel security while retaining convenience. A couple of weeks ago we returned from a home visit in Israel. Our inspection was the most lax I encountered anywhere in recent years. They couldn't care less if we have liquids and how many. Simple reason: they profile and are proud of it. We are immediately recognized as typical middle-class Jewish Israeli family. Free pass. If we were something else (say, a typical middle-class Palestinian family), the story would have been much different.
They claim you can't argue with success. But consider this:
- From a mathematical perspective, Israeli security only has to deal with the n=1 problem. The vast majority of their effort is spent profiling, questioning and strip-searching a single target group: Palestinians. Most other security services have more "suspect" ethnic groups to deal with, or they must intercept risks not immediately evident from appearance or other profiling.
- The Israeli "solution" - i.e., profiling and collectively punishing anyone who looks like, or is affiliated with, a Palestinian - is simply anti-democratic. Dictatorships can adopt it (well, actually, dictatorships don't really wait for the Israeli example, this is how dictatorships operate in the first place). But democracies cannot afford to do so and remain democracies. Israel is fortunate (or rather, unfortunate) that most of its citizens are raised to believe that we are a democracy, but never really care to check what this term entails.
Ironically, Israel's ID law originates from the British Mandate's 1945 Emergency Defense Regulations, enacted to counter... a wave of organized Jewish terrorism. The suite of regulations, all still in effect and used mostly against Palestinians - citizens, residents and Occupied - also includes the authority to demolish homes, arrest without trial (nowadays euphemised as "administrative detention"), to court-martial civilians, to censor the press, etc. Which does bring us to the Occupied Territories. In the West Bank, a Palestinian caught by our soldiers without an ID is liable to immediate imprisonment, which might last 18 days without trial. And yes, they will be arrested if they don't have an ID on them.
Since the lot of Jewish-Israelis is so much easier - meaning, the authorities don't see a point in enforcing the ID law on us - most Israelis are quite complacent with all this. They also err to think they live in a democracy, and mistake their nationality-related privileges for inalienable rights. Not. They are privileges in both senses: we get more freedoms than other groups in Israel-Palestine get. And the authorities, when push comes to shove, see these as privileges, which they reserve the full right to withdraw when they see fit.
And most Israelis call us progressives "suckers". We at least know what the real game is.
One last aspect, or irony: if all the above wasn't enough, until 2003 the ID included an explicit "Nationality" designation, with the options being "Jewish", "Arab", "Druze", "Circassian" (the last two being small minorities who generally cooperate with the Jewish majority). Mine for example, issued 1994, says "Jewish". Again, no one cared much about kind of "democracy" this is where a police officer can demand this document from you and ascertain which ethnic/national group you belong to.
But then, a group of Reform-converted Jews, for whom the Interior Ministry denied the "Jewish" designation to preserve the Orthodox monopoly over conversions, appealed to the High Court to be registered "Jewish", and won. The fundamentalist Interior Minister decided to respond by removing the "Nationality" designation altogether. He'd rather remove it, than admit that Reform-converted Jews are formally "Jewish" in Israel.
So the fundamentalist, anti-democrat politician ended up inadvertently nudging Israel's draconian ID a bit towards equity and democracy, in order to counter the boutique, spoiled, NIMBY, narrow concern of otherwise-fully-privileged Reform Jews (whose American counterparts often see no other evil in Israel except for the discrimination against Reform Jews). A little story that summarizes the many ironies of public life in Israel.
This post originally appeared on the Daily Kos.
Assaf Oron (b. 1966) is an Israeli human-rights/anti-Occupation activist (also holding US citizenship) and an applied statistician currently living in Seattle.
RE: “Israel has been ‘Arizona’ all along” – Assaf Oron
Gil Scott-Heron, whose political poetry influenced a generation of rap artists, last night sensationally announed the cancellation of his planned gig in Tel Aviv. Speaking on-stage at London’s Royal Festival Hall, Scott-Heron told the audience he “hated war” and, in a lengthy monolougue, told the packed audience his Israel tour date would not be going ahead….
SOURCE – link to niqnaq.wordpress.com
Thanks Dickerson..Posted it here:
link to angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.com
Big, big big victory. You should feel very good that Gil whoever he is canceled. Unfortunately for you losers here are a few performers that made it their business to play Israel recently: Paul McCartney, Sean Lennon, Macy Gray, Nine Inch Nails, Juliet Lewis, Incubus, Branford Marsalis, Chick Corea, Lady Gaga, Erika Badu, Tokio Hotel and a few hundred more. Strange Phil doesn’t list all the performers that support Israel and make it their business to play there.
National ID cards are required in many continental European nations, as well as in much of Latin America. And you must show those cards when requested by the police or risk arrest. So I am not so sure that those required cards pose that much of a risk to democracy–at least in places like Germany or Belgium.
The difference is that–I am assuming–that those other nations do not list nationality, just your citizenship, unlike Israel.
Yes, you are assuming correctly that other countries do not list nationality BUT your are presuming too much when you write of those countries with ID’s: “And you must show those cards when requested by the police or risk arrest.”
Also, do police discriminate in those countries when asking for an ID and arrest only individuals from races they hate and mistrust who don’t have their ID on them, and allow individuals from a race they like who are missing their ID to walk away?
Years ago, a friend of mine in Ghent, Belgium, was held at a police station when she failed to produce her ID card. As she was Flemish in a Flemish city, there was no evidence of racial hatred.
But she was a young street kid, so I presume the law frequently targets those deemed “undesirable”.
And frankly, I would not be surprised if the ID laws in other European countries are occasionally used to target those of certain races or ethnicities. I don’t think that should surprise anyone.
I am not trying to justify Israel’s ID laws whatsoever–I understand that Israel’s use of ID cards is so many degrees beyond, say, Belgium’s, that there is no comparison.
I was merely taking issue with the implication that demanding “papers please” was something unusual for many countries.
I have no choice but to pull a triple e here=:)
America has always been Arizona! You know, driving while Black, Brown, Latino, and flying while Muslim, bearded , turbaned or hijabed.
Toronto cops routinely pull over young black males driving nice cars. And in the West of Canada, it is the natives they beat up for no reason.
Many European countries issue ID cards. But hey, why pass up a golden opportunity to link every nasty thing happening in YOUR country to the murderous zionist entity.
“I have no choice but to pull a triple e here=:)”
Of course you have a choice Rachel, especially when you jump in with both feet with a non sequiter and soil yourself.
You see, racism is all around us, but only Israel (and now Arizona) have legislated racism. So while cops routinely pulling over young black males driving nice cars is reprehensible, it’s not a state policy.
And most importantly,. unlike Israel, the US government is speaking out in opposition to the new laws proposed by Arizona. There is outrage throughout the country from the left and right about these laws, unlike your beloved Israel.
link to rawstory.com
Uh, *you wish* rachel..
Since when are non-whites confined to living in certain areas of the US? Since when are non-whites not permitted to have their spouses immigrate from another country? Since when has the commemoration of slavery (for example) been a criminal act? The racism in Israel is a little more complex than just ID cards, and it’s getting worse:
“Current Knesset is the most racist in Israeli history”
link to haaretz.com
You forgot to cry “Leave Israel Alone”.
Why do you assume the Mondoweiss audience is only US? The fight against Israeli apartheid is international rachel.
“murderous zionist entity” -Rachel
Rachel, you are making progress. Keep on reading Mondoweiss, all day, every day, and taking anti-Zionism in through your pores. It’ll do you more good than a week at the sea-shore.
I have no problem with illegal immigrants being made to feel that they do not have a place in society. I’m bigoted on this issue. So what? The funny thing is that Assaf Oron would probably claim that he isn’t bigoted himself. Of course he is.
By the polls I have seen, 70% of Arizonans support the laws. I trust them rather than the phoney multicultural activists on this issue. Few Americans want the cultural and demographic changes being jammed down our throats, and to compare us to Israelis is stupid beyond belief. The comparison is such a stretch that it’s beyond ridiculous.
While I disagree with your thoughts on immigration, Todd, something you said caught my eye. “Few Americans want the cultural and demographic changes being jammed down our throats.” True enough. This country does seem to have a collective hissy fit over immigration. The parallels to Palestine should be apparent. The Zionist movement organized a massive Jewish emigration from Europe to Palestine. And while our neighbors from south come here solely for economic opportunity and to escape grinding poverty, the Zionists came with the express purpose of creating a Jewish State on land populated by non-Jewish people. Is there any wonder that Palestinians resisted these “cultural and demographic changes being jammed down their throats,” which was far more threatening than Latin American emigration? And yet, to this day, Israel hasbara blames the Palestinians for failing to welcome their conquerors with open arms, as if it were a sign of irrational Jew-hatred. Just another example of Abba Eban’s famous line about Arabs never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They could have avoided the entire conflict by simply agreeing to voluntary ethnic cleansing. Instead, they obstinately clung to their homes, land, and villages, in defiance of the superior right of the European Jewish community.
DS, How do you think the Americas & Australia were populated?
200 years ago. This is the 21st C.
And you’re making sweeping prejudiced statements like “And in the West of Canada, it is the natives they beat up for no reason,” that have no place in an adult conversation.
There is a certain degree of shame and national embarrassment over how the Americas and Australia were populated. But not in Israel, where national amnesia reigns supreme.
But more importantly, why do you try to justify the Zionists’ shameful displacement and dispossession of the indigenous population of Palestine with a comparison to prior shameful displacements and dispossessions? Can you imagine someone defending genocide in Darfur and Rwanda by saying, Look what the Europeans did to the Jews? It’s not a defense, rachel. If you want to make a useful comparison, compare the violence between the Arab and Jewish sides over the decades. There have been far, far more Arab victims than Jewish ones, and Jewish violence has been perpetrated in the cause of establishing permanent domination over an indigineous population, and still, it’s the Arab side that is portrayed as aggressive terrorists and the Jewish side as victims who are being forced to violence in self-defense.
Come to think of it, your analogies are not so far off. I remember learning in grade school how the (American) Indians committed wanton acts of violence against the Americans. I hope our school books have changed since then.
It’s the difference between being post colonialist and actively colonialist.
Unfortunately, countries like Canada still have a very long way to go.
Israel, on the other hand, is still actively involved in colonialism.
“200 years ago. This is the 21st C.” Exactly.
In 1945 the law (or the victor’s law, anyway) changed. Nuremberg declared aggressive war-making a crime. This was a big surprise for the German Generals. The UN was formed upon — among others — the principle of inadmissibility of acquiring territory by use or threat of force. NEW RULES.
Israel was planned in the period 1898-1939, before the rules changed. The Jewish terrorism of 1939-1947 was the first act in the war of 1947-50. Although 1945 intervened, it was inconvenient for the pre-Israelis to take note and change their plans — their whole raison d’etre was their plan to fight the war and steal the country. So what did they do? They kept to their plans and stole most of the country (the rest in 1967, a scant 19 years later). No problem-o. They were the victors and arranged to be protected by another victor (USA). So the new rules didn’t apply.
In fact, the new rules (like the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, evidently under discussion while Israel was a-forming) became defunct (“caduc” as Arafat said, in French, about the PLO-charter’s Israel-is-illegitimate clause) under ill-usage by USA and Israel who want to be (rather than to be ruled by) the law.
“Few Americans want the cultural and demographic changes being jammed down our throats.”
Few Baby Boomer Americans want the cultural and demographic changes….
Not one single Arizonan raised his fist to stop NAFTA when it counted in 1993-1994. Goldman Sachs did to the Mexican economy (it raced to become the Mexican bankers’ investment banker, ruined their economy then got the US taxpayers to spit out $40 billion to save Goldman Sachs) in 1995-1996 what it just did to ours, and we and the Arizonans dont have the balls to endure the consequences of our actions. We destroyed the Mexican rural means of earning a living, then left it bereft when we gave China most-favored-nation-status and the wages in China were $.60/hr vs $2.22/hr in Mexico.
Payback’s a bitch. But the fact that Americans cannot face the consequences of their actions is appalling.
I agree. That’s what I find the most sickening — of course the Mexicans are coming here now. This is where most of their nation’s missing wealth was spirited off to after all.
NAFTA screwed over everybody who wasn’t a corporate privateer, in all three countries. Not to get too self-absorbed, but it’s been a really sad thing for me to watch how the US continues to degrade and decay ever since I was old enough to be politically aware (I used to read Bloom County in grade school and not everything went over my head :) )
I’m a baby boomer and many of my peers I know find nothing unsettling at all about the demographic and cultural changes. Perhaps, that’s because 80% of my life was spent in New Orleans and Texas, where long-established Hispanic communities have existed for years and in some cases for centuries.
Todd,
A few days ago you posed a question. You asked how the average American can go about changing a political system that is corrupt and broken. Do you remember that?
Well, today, you write that 70% of Arizonians support the law and you trust them.
In other words, what you’re saying is that you’re not going to bother weighing the pros and cons of the law, you’re simply going to follow the crowd, the majority, and go with whatever decision they make.
THAT, is a form of apathy and that is the reason why I honestly didn’t get the sense that you were interested in true change or in making any sacrifices toward that end.
Instead of questioning the law and its merits, you’re following the mob. Forget the whole race aspect of it all. Do you honestly believe that harassing legal Arizonians and US citizens who are slightly darker than an Imperial Wizard is going to be good for the community, for Arizona or for the US?
Avi, how am I just going with the mob? I stated that I have no problem with making it impossible for illegals to function in American society. I don’t live in Arizona, so Arizona’s laws don’t apply to me.
I’ve seen how illegal and legal immigration have lowered wages for Americans, and how communities have been burdened by the crime and massive use of services by illegals. I completely understand how this affects people.
I love how Leftists talk about supporting the working classes until it comes to actually protecting the interests of the working classes. At that point it becomes clear that the whole act is a racial spoils system, and I know exactly where I fit in the grand scheme, so don’t talk race to me, Avi.
My guess is that most of the people here who love the idea of massive amounts of the world’s poor people settling in other people’s neighborhoods would recoil in horror if massive amounts of poor whites settled in theirs, and would not find the new foods and folkways a charming and needed addition to the local fabric. Spare me the B.S., Avi.
Todd,
I wasn’t attacking you, I was asking you a question about profiling.
I was under the impression that you lived in Arizona that’s why I brought up your agreement with 70% of Arizonians. It sounded to be as though you were agreeing with the majority in your state and figured “case closed”. So, that was a misunderstanding.
Anyway, I think we can both agree that illegal immigration is a problem in the US and that a solution is desperately needed, for the sake of legal immigrants, for the sake of the American working class and for the sake of the illegal immigrants who end up being victims of their own circumstances.
But, do you genuinely believe that pulling people over based on mere suspension that they are illegal immigrants is a good idea? That’s the point I’m trying to make.
Do you honestly think the legal citizens of the US who live in Arizona should put up with such profiling and harassment because this happens to be Arizona’s answer to illegal immigration?
The law allows law enforcement officials to ask anyone they “suspect” of being an illegal immigrant for his papers. So, the question is, how are law enforcement officials going to decide who’s “suspicious” and who’s not?
This law isn’t going to solve the illegal immigration problem. If anything, it’s going to alienate all the non-whites in Arizona and given the rush to divest from many Arizona businesses over the last few days as a result of this law, the state’s economy is going to be suffer.
The bottom line is that Arizonians are shooting themselves in the foot by approving of this law. It’s counterproductive.
Avi, we have a massive problem with legal and illegal immigration. I don’t care for the radical politics of groups like LaRaza or Aztlan, and many immigrants are very disrespectful of white Americans, as are many leftists. Let’s not forget that the Left loves racial politics!
My guess is that it will take harsh measures to sort out our immigration problem. If I can put up with affirmative action and the usual Leftist vitriol against whites, the middle and working class, and traditional America, in general, then Latinos can put up with profiling since many were illegal at one point, anyway.
What were the great reasons for immigration and demographic cahnge, anyway? Few people of any age group want it.
The demographic and cultural changes from immigration do not bother me one whit.
What bothers me is the downward pressure that wholesale, unregulated, and illegal, immigration has on wages in the US.
I live in Iowa, and have seen great-paying unionized jobs with benefits at meat-packing plants transform to $8/hr, no benefit, no union, jobs when the owners decide to hire undocumented labor.
The retort to that is, “Americans won’t do the work that immigrants will.”
My response to that is that in a so-called “free market” operating within a nation state, you simply raise wages sufficiently to attract those American workers.
Americans are incredibly hard working and given a living wage would take any kind of job. It’s the government’s job to protect its’ citizens. If a plant hires undocumented workers that company should face crippling fines.
Yeah, kind of a shame your party has tried to break the back of the labor movement and strip those protections from the average American.
Edwin, I will tell you this–
I lived in Houston for a number of years and some of the biggest “bitchers” about illegal immigration were the Mexican natives of Houston who went back generations as Texans. Why? Because they more than anyone else recognized the negative effects on wages.
And when the US annexed Arizona, the Mexican residents instantly became US citizens. While Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens as well, it should be clear that Israel’s treatment of its Arab citizens is a good 50 years behind US treatment of its Hispanic citizens and other minorities.
Israel is one so-called Western country that has not moved past 1960 in its treatment of minorities. The rest of the world has made significant strides in that regard.
Edwin, if you believe that the U.S. is bogus because it is a result of British colonialism, wouldn’t Mexico be the invalid as a state since Mexico is the result of Spanish colonialism?
The native tribes on the lands bought, conquered or added to the U.S. in other ways from Mexico were victims, but did they view themselves as Mexicans? That’s where I have a problem. When the Aztlan and LaRaza nuts talk about reconquest and stolen lands, it’s probable that their ancestors never lived on the lands they want to reconquer. For them it is merely a racial and ethnic matter. Do we really want racial and ethnic Balkanization? That’s what we are starting to see with these people.
Screw you, Todd. The Mexicans, and the other immigrants are the best thing going in America.
And I really enjoy having cultural and demographic changes “shoved down my throat” . I’ve discovered some of the best food and music that way.
I assume your forebearers came over before the Mayflower, of course.
And you know something, punk, if I was afraid of new immigrants, I’m not such a whiny titty baby that I would admit it.
Hey, best food by far in my neck of the woods is The Holyland in Minneapolis–a Palestinian restaurant serving Palestinian/Lebanese/Greek food at a terrific buffet.
Living in small town Iowa, when I need my diversity fix, the melting pot of Minneapolis scratches my itch.
We have a large population here in E. Massachusetts from Brazil and the DR, and if someone were to try to take away my daughter’s chicken and rice they might lose a finger or two.
Screw you, too, Mooser. Most Americans don’t want the change, and never have. Not wanting immigrants isn’t the same as fearing them. That’s weak.
You’ve discovered great food and music? What’s that supposed to mean?
And would you have a problem if some of my ancestors were on the Mayflower? What would be wrong with that? You make it clear that you don’t care for white Christians over and over. I guess you aren’t a bigot?
So, just so we’re clear, you hate immigrants, regardless of whether they’re legally in the US or not?
Who used the word hate? You know better than that! The whole world can’t come to the U.S., and if you wish to deny the negative social and political effects, along with the real fracturing of American society, then there really isn’t much to discuss.
I’m very happy to see Assaf Oron posting here.
but only Israel (and now Arizona) have legislated racism.
BS! There is no such legislation and you know it. I am sure there is social- unlegislated- discrimination. Just like in the US! Are you telling me there are no black ghettos in the States? No White only gated communities? No White flight to the suburbs when the neighbourhood gets a little too dusky? Ha! You wish! I am your neighbour to the north. I travel to the States a couple of times a year. As a matter of fact, I was in the Finger Lakes area not long ago, I did not see too many black people in those cute little wine tasting towns! I saw plenty in the down and out parts of many US cities.
How about those CNN series ” Black in America”? They did not paint a rosy picture of black life. No race riots in the UK, no troubled immigrant communities in France. It is perfect social peace everywhere in the world!
It is utopia everywhere, except in that shitty little country that you obsess about 24/7.
Wow. Rachel actually said something I can agree with. What a surprise.
“BS! There is no such legislation and you know it.”
Uhhh…do you pay attention to the news? Are you aware of the law just passed in AZ?
Pingback: Latest Florida Real Estate Auctions
One day, inshallah, when Palestine is free from the river to the see, we will be great pals, Chaotic. Not!
Anyways, I love to play with you -even though, you are underage- but beauty sleep beckons. Being a crone and all of that, I can’t stay up late. So please, reserve you delightful responses till manana. I am collecting your witticisms & I don’t want to miss any.
Yikes! Sea, not see. Really too late to be posting!
So how come you never actually go to bed when you take the opportunity to grace us all with your dramatic pronouncement that it’s your intent to do so? Do you do that thing where you enter the bedroom, forget why you got up and went to another room in the first place, and then go back where you started and do the whole thing over again?
So uncanny! Have you been watching me?
Can’t tear myself from this wondrous thing called Mondoweiss.
Good night for real!
“Can’t tear myself from this wondrous thing called Mondoweiss.”
No, you can’t, can you.
It makes you wonder what Rachel is begging for – is she begging for the “privilege” of genocide like the indigenous populations in America and Australia experienced? –
“DS, How do you think the Americas & Australia were populated?”
Or is she begging for the privilege of racism because it has been practiced elsewhere (perhaps we should go around the world)? It reminds me of the imbecile Israelis settlers that dressed up like “Indians.” Like the childish arguments of he bloodied so and so’s nose, so why am I punished for bloodying someone nose and not him? Better yet, a criminal murderer in a court of law says “why did you single out me, there are several murders every day in this city.” Patently spurious and utterly ridiculous, it is no argument.
It also relies on the total ignorance, at least in America (and unfortunately among many Zionist Jewish supporters everywhere) of the intensity and extent of what has happened and is currently taking place against the Palestinians. When the major thrust of the article is twofold – making it a “legal” policy to act in whatever way, and the targeting of a specific population with that so-called law.
“Now, this goes on all the time. If you walk a typical Israeli downtown, especially in Jerusalem, you will always see police officers or soldiers “chatting” with some Arab-looking men and checking their ID’s. The police are acting completely within their rights. See, that’s the beauty: in Israel citizens don’t really have inherent rights because there is no Constitution. There have been some “Basic Laws”, including a “Human Rights and Dignity Law”, representing an attempt to cobble together a quasi-Constitution.”
Why is there no mention of “Israeli” citizenship on Israeli ID cards?
It’s all about discrimination! If every citizen in Israel is Israeli (rather than Jewish or Arab) then ALL are equal and that no good!
Link
link to counterpunch.org
A lot of people seem to think the Arizona law breaks new ground in requiring people to carry their “papers.” As far as I know people in America have always been required to carry ID to show the police (at least as far back as I can remember.) A few years ago I read a hot blog post by a woman who was outraged because the police arrested her for floating down the river on an inner tube in her bathing suit with no ID.
I once asked a cop what he did when he stopped someone who didn’t have his wallet or any identification. His answer: “You’re required to carry ID.” I guess all the people I see jogging in my neighborhood are potentially in big trouble because most of them aren’t carry anything more than their ipods.
To my astonishment (and amusement), pro Israel supporters seem to have run out arguments! Unless we consider the dastardly own goal “Oh, but Israel is not the only baddy here, some others are bad too, hyaaeea!” an argument!
Pingback: Latest Nevada Real Estate Auctions
Pingback: Help wanted, job needed: Preliminary estimates of a matching function in Israel | internet jobs
Apathy should be considered a crime against humanity when one lives in a country with legislated discriminatory practices. Those who live in Israel and are privileged by human and legal rights that are denied to others and just look the other way, going about their life as if nothing is wrong are guilty and complicit in the crimes committed against those whose rights are being denied–Period!
Pingback: Jay Z Blue Print Collage 16×20 Photo | Jay-Z Celebrity Monitor
At least 70% of Arizona citizens approve of the new law, although 53% have some reservations about discriminatory enforcement under the test of “reasonable suspicion.” I believe the police are to be schooled in scenarious constituting such suspicion. Why did Arizona passed this law? Ultimately, because the feds are not enforcing current law against illegal immigration. If the feds were doing their job at the border, Arizona wouldn’t have to attempt to enforce the law once people illegally were inside Arizona and mixed in with people legally living and working in the state. Arizona has been a funnel as it has no wall on its border with Mexico to my
knowledge.
The illegal drug trade wars associated with illegal border crossing have cost more lives than US troops killed in Iraq to date. Every third baby born in Arizona is born to an illegal immigrant. There is also an ever growing group of illegal immigrant seniors there. State medicaid and tax base funding keeps growing. Crime and property damage also has increased as the population of illegals grows. The law is a product of
frustration.
While it’s easy to attack the new law as retro-rascist and brown-skinned
people who only speak Spanish have reasonable concern to be alarmed,
what, if anything should be done to assure and insure the rights and lives
of the people legally living, residing, and visiting in Arizona?
Obama says the law is “misguided.”
What does suggest Arizona do?
And congress?
Anything concrete? Say, extend the wall already built on the border of some other states? Bring in those recommended 3,000 National Guard troops? Where will they get them from, Iraq?
Arizona already has a criminal law directed against employers who hire illegals.
Just asking.
Are the US airlines security people profiling at the airports? If so, is that
rascist or common sense?
Slippery slopes.
Isn’t there a rough parallel here also with Homeland Security laws, and with how our government goes after some NGOs and not others?
I doubt many Arizonians protested when NAFTA was passed back in the earlier 1990′s. The result is what we have now. NAFTA ruined the old way of making a modest living for average Mexicans; they’ve had little choice but to survive anyway they can. The big corporations and banks have benefited hugely, not so the little people of Arizona (and other states) and Mexico. 43% of US congress members are millionaires.
Citizen, I sure wish we could trade you for a Mexican!
One solution would be to legalize any Mexican workers and impose controls on hiring practices and wages (by the federal government) – if they’re good enough to work for you, they’re good enough to receive papers and benefits, otherwise, you don’t need them to work for you. Period. These people are for the most part escaping extreme poverty, and can’t just “go back” to where they came from, and policing the border more efficiently to stop any more from coming in is not a solution because the conditions that created this mess (NAFTA) are still in rigor.
So, their lives are destroyed, but the Arizonans want them to “just go away” – yes, the parallels between this and Israel are there.
One thing that wasn’t mentioned is the “demographic problem”, a real fear that underlies both situations – many Americans can’t cope with the possibility that whites of European origins may no longer be the numerical majority in the future if the trajectories keep going in the same direction. Same for many Israelis, no doubt, and that is why, I think, many actually support the 2-state solution. If many of the Palestinians refugies are allowed to return, and the population keeps growing, they will have this numerical majority, and if they are offered a democratic vote, well you see… Isaac Luria (from J-Street), in a recent interview expressed this same concern. So, ultimately, support for the 2SS can result from a basic racism (he doesn’t want Palestinians to have proportional representation in any future Jewish state).
The radical nationalists, however, just want them to dissappear little by little by making their lives miserable, and this is what is being implemented right now. There is no reason to believe that Palestinians will enjoy any kind of democracy if the 1SS is implemented, unless some sort of “parallel” government system is created.
Another solution would be to return to Mexico that which was stolen.
This is an interesting idea, but doesn’t make sense on several levels, I think.
1 : What kind of Mexican state would then exist, and what does it have to offer the new “Mexicans” of AZ? Virtually nothing, unless you are part of the very privileged minority of the extremely rich. This doesn’t solve the problem, it just creates a larger failed state.
2 : Mass exodus of the population that wouldn’t want to live in the newly expanded Mexico would ensue – how would this be handled?
3 : This brings up en essential point : at what point does past injustice become an unmodifiable and accepted present? I mean that if we wanted to give back the lands to all their rightful owners, most of us would go back to Europe and Africa. Where is the cutoff point? In the Occupied Territories, we still have a chance, I think, the settlers are not as numerous as one might think (I don’t have the figures handy), they are just scattered, like an archipelago.
The only solution is to dismantle the bogus “trade” agreements and let Mexico develop a robust economy without mis-intervention of US corporations (and gov’t) – is this likely to happen? Maybe with a real popular movement. Who knows? Not me.
One difference is that Mexican immigrants provide cheap labor that a part of the economy thrives on – in the case of I/P, I think that Pals actually have less opportunities to work, but I may be wrong.
As I said, Arizona already has criminal laws directed against US employers of illegal immigrants. And as I suggested, Arizona citizens pay the subsidy-welfare price for the use of cheap indocumented labor by private corporations. Obama’s health bill will increase this transfer of wealth, with none of it really affecting the corporations who use illegal labor or their shareholders.
“This brings up en essential point : at what point does past injustice become an unmodifiable and accepted present?”
Do the American Irish get reparations from the USA and England that benefits their later generations? No.
The solution is an endless working backwards to balance past evil to the benefit of current families of past de jure or de facto state victims? At the expense of later innocent generations of past oppressors who had the benefit of the color at least of law, still benefiting to some extent from past oppression? No.
How far back to take some ever new aspect of affirmative action?
Can you take it back farther than the state of Israel has done, and with the huge support of the only superpower in the world?
And against the Palestinians who were not even members of any former oppresive group?
This thought trajectory should reveal to anyone with a brain that Israel’s current status quo, and the support of it de facto by the US–is deadly wrong.
I love this:
“Our crimes are irreversible. We get to enjoy the fruits of our crimes, but we will force Israel to pay for theirs.”
Hilarious.
Sheer frustration, as in Arizona, doesn’t seem like a very good reason for making a law. What that means is that laws in place don’t work: you should be asking why. The answer is quite likely that the enforcement agencies don’t have the needful resources or that there is something about your society that makes enforcement fundamentally impossible. In advanced societies the economic imperative to draw in cheap labour always somehow overcomes, over and over again, any legal system for resisting the process. That’s how we Westerners as a bunch of people are.
In Palestine the Israeli authorities cannot overcome the problems caused by the sheer presence of the Palestinians, by their sense of entitlement to a share in sovereignty and by their birthrate. That’s how that bunch of people are.
In both cases it probably only makes things worse if hostile-seeming police/people contact is increased.
As to past injustice, there might be a case for saying that people like me, who have some Welsh blood, should ‘take back England’, since ‘we’ were, on some historical accounts, thrown out of it around 500-700. But I think that since there has been acceptance of the Englishness of England and since people of Welsh descent have agreed over the centuries to participate in every aspect of English life and even to become culturally English, forming a social contract, that case would not be very strong. The problem in Palestine is that there has been no treaty and no shared social contract.
There’s some truth to this. We do benefit from the crimes of our ancestors. Most Americans are hypocrites when they criticize other governments, since theirs (mine too) is the one with the most blood on its hands by a longshot. Crimes do not hold sway genetically down through generations, though, and those born now bear no responsibility for them. This is the crux of the problem, because the Israeli govt is trying to advance the settlements as far and as long a time as possible so that the children born there will not be “responsible” for the crimes of their parents, and so this just becomes an accepted canon of “history”. They are just buying time.
Our Manifest Destiny is long gone (though expressed by our multinational corporations abroad, which don’t represent us, so really, it is not “us”, even though we pay for some of it) – the Israelis are in the middle of theirs right now, and we are in a position to do something about it. Big difference.
The liability to punishment for a crime is not inherited but the duty to make reasonable restitution, rather than simply benefit from the crime, is certainly inherited. Someone who doesn’t care where his/her possessions come from is indifferent to moral rules, so not a moral person. The campaign for restitution by Swiss banks of money stolen from Jews by Hitler wasn’t invalid simply because it was the heirs of the culpable Swiss bankers on whom the demands were made, though it may have been faulty on other grounds.
If what has been taken is your place under a previous social contract then you should be restored to a place under a new social contract. If the English expelled the Welsh from England around 700 they had, and eventually did act upon, the duty to accept Welsh people as partners in every respect, fully enfranchised, in the English social contract. It seems that Welsh people and people of Welsh descent have in effect fully accepted this status over the centuries, so giving up any claim to ‘take England back’, and not really wanting even now to claim independence for Wales itself.
But if Welsh people and people of Welsh descent were to this day, after more than a thousand years, disfranchised or discriminated against in England, that would still be an injustice, certainly not made just by any amount of water under the bridges. Same with Palestine. Time does not make wrong right.
Citizen, if AZ or the Feds had any real interest in curbing illegal immigration they would aggressively prosecute the companies employing the illegals. I have lived in Texas and California and the service and agricultural industries would grind to a halt without illegal labor. And why don’t they prosecute? Because illegals provide a means of driving down wages, a ready work force employers can lord it over without fear of resort by the ‘employees’ to labor laws or union agitation. Southern blacks served a similar function in the post-War South when vagrancy laws were drafted and a new slave labor system was established and administered by the state as opposed to private slave holders. See, e.g.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Lowered wages and the centuries-old divide and conquer mentality of the economic elites is what drives the system. You and I may find enforcement of the immigration laws to be f*cked up, probably for different reasons, but the system is working just fine by big business.
Marc B, I agree with you. And, yes, the system is working fine for big business. It’s, as you know a world-wide thing. I don’t know why you agree with me that
enforcement of the immigration laws is F*cked up, but suggest we both arrive at that conclusion for different reasons. Please explain your comment in this respect. Thanks.
My position is that immigration policies should reflect actual immigration patterns, and that the ‘legalization’ of settled illegals will raise wages. And again, I see an analogy between the illegal immigration and drug policy. If enforcement were to focus on prosecuting middle and upper class users of drugs, you bet that the ‘drug problem’ would be quickly solved. Same with immigration. Prosecute the employers aggressively, and a realistic policy would be found.
My impression is that you believed that immigration policy should focus more on ‘building walls’ so to speak. If my impression is incorrect, I apologize.
It’s a tradeoff–
US companies get a free hand in exploitation of Mexico’s natural resources (including its people), and an open, ready market. In return, the Mexican oligarchy gets the safety valve of their poorest citizens heading north rather than staying put and perhaps forcing political and economic change in Mexico.
Mostly everything about Israel is phony from its founding based on a mythical nation to the legislated laws specifically intended to dispossess the Palestinians. There are no limits to Israeli horror stories; Haaretz reported on children of refugees put in jail with hardened criminals instead of being placed in shelters but MKs, thanks to the Haaretz story are to look into this but only NEXT WEEK. Not very nice people those Israelis:
Haaretz: About 30 African children who infiltrated into Israel and are being held at the Givon prison in Ramle, are being detained under inappropriate conditions, says the Justice Ministry’s legal aid division. The refugee children were taken to Ramle after another detention facility where they were held was closed.
The conditions at Givon are harsher than those at Michal detention facility, where they had been held. There is no air-conditioning, and many of the children have complained of hunger. There is apparently a lack of age-appropriate activity, which they had been given at the previous facility.
Many of the children reportedly have not had a physical examination to determine their ages, as required by international convention. Such an examination could result in the release of some of the children; legally a child under the age of 12 may not be detained.
link to haaretz.co.il
Pingback: Free Nights In The Czech Republic and Austria | Travel,Hotels and … | Czech Republic Traveling
Sorry for the screwed-up link above. If anyone is interested in the Haaretz story, please Google-it.
Pingback: Roman Polanski's Appeal To End Sex Case Denied | Vote For The … | Roman Polanski Celebrity Monitor
Pingback: Nuclear weapon funds would save more lives invested in disease … | Nuclear Science Applied
The solution is really simple. Arizona, New Mexico, California and Texas should be given back to its rightful owners Mexico. Of course, the Americans would be welcome to stay and live under Mexican laws.
Any other solution does not provide “justice”.
“Any other solution does not provide “justice”.”
Justice comes from God, asshole.
You are totally missing the point – and from what I’ve seen of your other posts, that’s nothing unusual. They seem like computer-generated spams, almost (maybe English is not your first language, I’m sorry). Do you do this on purpose? As a propagandist for official Israeli policy, you’re not very effective, so can only think that you come here to learn something. I hope you do.
Your solution is unwittingly a good one, however, for the settlers living in occupied territories : “Americans would be welcome to stay and live under Mexican laws” – think about it.
It is you who is totally missing the point. You seem to advocate in Israel policies that you would not dream of advocating in the US which shows that you are an irrational Israel hater.
“…you are an irrational Israel hater.”
OK, I’m sorry I took the bait *takes head between hands*
I’m new here, I fell for it. You can’t be serious. I’ll disregard your posts now.
You obviously are planted here to spit out knee-jerk reactions. My dumb.
Actually, white queen, You are an irrational Israel hater whose unfair criticism is used to bludgeon Israel. Unfairly. In the interests in fullness and clarity.
In the most unfair way. And in the fullest of maximalist intentions.
lol
It’s a curious phenomenon, this eee, getting intellectually gang-banged by everyone else, allowing little time for coming up for air between posts, and at the same time helping them better develop their arguments, thus backfiring on his/her original intentions.
It really shows the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the fort he’s holding down.
Pingback: Healthy Skin Care : How to Treat Pimples — Acne Treatment Remedy | Skin Care Beauty Wisdom
Pingback: AirCar Runs On Compressed Air | Fast Cars Gear | Alternative Fuel Automotive Wisdom
Pingback: $399000 :: 3213 Marble Crest Dr, Land O Lakes FL, 34638 – Real … | Pasco County FL Real Estate
Pingback: Cost Benefit Analysis of Procuring Shredding Services - Top News, Music, and Sports - The Blog Conglomerate
Pingback: Arkansas Wild Hog Inspires Wild Cat Formation – Running Back Duo … - Top News, Music, and Sports - The Blog Conglomerate
There is a large block of boycott coming Arizona’s way, it is already beginning to bite. Perhaps we can get an example of what a boycott does to stamp out a deeply racist and prejudicial law – maybe it will encourage the forward thrust of the BDS movement.
About the only difference in the Arizona boycott is it is blaring over the MSM, however you can hear the crickets chirp in the MSM when it comes to BDS of the Israeli occupation. This leaves a well funded group of Israeli supporters and their yellow journalism conglomerate to fight with a less funded group of BDS supporters without the same journalistic coverage (in the sense of traditional media). In the Arizona boycott you hear the voices of the victims loud and clear, they are given a platform, but in the BDS camp you rarely hear the victims voice (Palestinians) as loud and clear. In the light of this comparison it will be interesting to see how each worthy boycott does in their respective battles.
Pingback: Upcoming Events in the World of NASCAR - Top News, Music, and Sports - The Blog Conglomerate
Pingback: Departing for Israel and Jordan « Ferrell's Travel Blog | Jordan Traveling
Pingback: St Bonaventure Catholic School » Va Schools That Have Mph Programs | Educational Virginia
Pingback: vsjustdoit.blogr.com – stories – 2010-04-28-Holden-VE-Commodore | Holden Automotive Marque
Pingback: Holidays to Amsterdam – Affordable and Fun - Top News, Music, and Sports - The Blog Conglomerate
Pingback: A Happy Pocket Full of Money – E-Book Review - Top News, Music, and Sports - The Blog Conglomerate
Pingback: Kevin MacDonald: Jewish groups oppose Arizona-type laws–except in Israel « The Occidental Observer Blog
Pingback: Greece agrees to €24billion austerity package | Currency News | Pound Sterling Currency Herald
Pingback: Jude Law Hottest Man Alive? | Let's Gossip | Jude Law Celebrity Monitor