Lately I've been told that my issue isn't the burning issue of the Middle East. The Israel/Palestine issue can be put on the back burner, it's contained, even Lebanon invasion would be a local war, etc. Well here is Syria expert Joshua Landis at Foreign Policy, seizing on a visit by Russian president Medvedev to Damascus earlier this week and saying that it portends more trouble in the Middle East, a cold war between the superpowers in which the U.S. is cast as the enemy of Arabs and Muslims. Barack Hussein Obama indeed. And that it only puts more pressure on the U.S. to cure the human-rights blight that is at the root of our bad image: Palestinian statelessness.
America's leading allies have been Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt. The Saudis have shown some signs of distancing themselves from Washington and have reached out to both Russia and China to hedge their bets. ... [Syria and Saudi Arabia] stood together in favoring Ayad Allawi as leader of a new Iraqi government. Syria has supported Saudi actions in Yemen. Jordan has also worked to improve relations with Syria. King Abdullah has warned the United States that it must pressure Netanyahu to stop settlement expansion for fear that war will break out.So long as America's No. 1 foreign-policy goal in the region is to hurt Iran and help Israel, Russia will be drawn back into the region and a new Cold War will take shape. Washington's failure to realign relations with Iran and Syria dooms it to repeat its past. But this time Israel will be more of a millstone around its neck as it thumbs it's nose at international law and human rights. China also presents a new and potent challenge...Russia can also be gratified by the deterioration of Turkey's relations with both Israel and the United Stats. It will continue to look for ways to frustrate U.S. efforts to add teeth to its sanctions regime against Iran.
So long as America's No. 1 foreign-policy goal in the region is to hurt Iran and help Israel, Russia will be drawn back into the region and a new Cold War will take shape. Washington's failure to realign relations with Iran and Syria dooms it to repeat its past. But this time Israel will be more of a millstone around its neck as it thumbs it's nose at international law and human rights. China also presents a new and potent challenge.
Gamal Abdul Nasser claimed that in the Middle East there was a role in search of a hero; he tried to fill it at great cost to Egypt. So long as the Arab-Israeli conflict remains unresolved, however, that role will exist. Iran and Syria are trying to fill it today. They claim to defend Arab and Muslim rights in the face of Israeli expansion and U.S. imperialism. If they are to have any success, they will need a larger power to champion their efforts. And Russia is the obvious candidate -- that is, until China is prepared to throw its weight behind Middle East peacemaking. Syria is well aware that neither Russia nor China can dare challenge the United States or Israel for at least a decade, but Syria and Iran seem prepared to play for time. The alternative to taking the long view for Syria is the loss of the Golan and national humiliation.
Its an important issue, but only a “cold war” one relative to Iran.
That’s complete nonsense. You are seeing the situation not only through Israeli eyes, but through their most myopic variety.
Our sliding into a renewed confrontation with Russia is primarily a result of the Israel Lobby pushing for permanent war with Arab and Muslim powers, and is yet another example of just how dangerous a threat the Israel Lobby is to US national security.
Taking off from these developments:
[China also presents a new and potent challenge...Russia can also be gratified by the deterioration of Turkey's relations with both Israel and the United States…
If they are to have any success, they will need a larger power to champion their efforts. And Russia is the obvious candidate -- that is, until China is prepared to throw its weight behind Middle East peacemaking.]
As quoted from yahoo news:
link to news.yahoo.com
[WASHINGTON – Sens. John Kerry and Joe Lieberman unveiled a long-awaited bill Wednesday that aims to curtail pollution blamed for global warming, reduce oil imports and create millions of energy-related jobs.
The 987-page bill, the product of more than seven months of negotiations and tweaked recently in response to the Gulf oil spill, also includes new protections for offshore drilling and for the first time would set a price on carbon dioxide emissions produced by coal-fired power plants and other large polluters.
The legislation aims to cut emissions of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases by 17 percent by 2020 and by more than 80 percent by 2050. Both targets are measured against 2005 levels and are the same as those set by a House bill approved last year.]
There are two important global develops that emerges very recently:
1) The Arabs nations are aligning with the Russians and China.
2) The Americans technology is shifting unto non –oil based energy base.
On the first (1) development, on A) On political arena. It is a welcome alignment that the political polarization would be well defined… At least the western policy directions (including Europe) will be much categorical, defined, and clear. B) On spiritual arena, among Christian belief, this is a more defined manifestations of prophetic direction towards realignment of nations in the future wherein the enemies of Israel would come from the ‘north’);
On the second (2) development there are developments that are indications of potential major global demographic shifts. A) Migration is an emerging issue in western world because of the current cultural issues brought up by Islamic militancy B) The reduction of oil imports and use of petroleum in the US could initiate migratory trend from petroleum totally dependent middle-east countries to other distinctively non-religious major countries particularly Russia and China. China is a gas guzzler nation thus migration privileges may come into the picture of petroleum diplomacy. Now that the Russians are aligning with Arab or Muslim countries, in these instances there is the possibility of major demographic movement (migratory shift) by middle eastern peoples from Western Europe to Russian countries. Islamic migration would trend towards Russia, and China. C) The issue of cultural issues in Europe could be minimized as it would be mainly consuming Russian oil supply (clean and straight sans migration issues). Russian can gain enormous profits by coming into the oil trade as middleman between Europe /western countries and the middle east suppliers. I think this is a clean idea… Russians can also supply arms to the Arabs. But it has a intrinsic problems here a) the alignment also carries the possibilities of these weapons used against them. b) it cuddles an explosive ancient ethnic conflicts between Turks, Armenians, and Greeks, as well as Turks versus Arabs. This alignment is merely a gathering of formers blood-enemies as against common enemy… At any rate these conflict would still be in the future so the Russians has time to enjoy this merry diplomatic concoction.
Actually as American totally shifts into clean energy, these socio-economic and political complexes Russia and China would welcome to enter has no significant effect to the American future… History showed time-after-time, with systemic western world support, Israel has been capable of managing its own ‘backyard’… Perhaps the world may go back some historical ‘blocks’ (like in a game of Monopoly) but the entire world would continue to move forward…
China either due to its bad experiences with internal Islamic conflict, would remain adamant with the oil/demography diplomacy (for sure it would mainly limit to oil/security/economy diplomacy) so we cannot expect China would be on full throttle with a comprehensive oil-diplomacy complex. So the weight of the ball would be in Russian hands… I don’t know if the Russians are interested on these scenarios…
‘Migration’ issues here may not even be significantly movement of ‘numbers of people’ but maybe defined in terms of cultural privileges…
Please correct
[There are two important global develops that emerges very recently:]
to
[There are two important global developments that could be potentially emerging very recently:]
Another potential conflict between Iranians and Iraquis in the future; at the areas along the Tigris River at the Al Basrah region; and the contention is not oil – but water and fertile lands…This could be a come back of that 8-year war during the regime of Sadam Hussien.
All these anticipated socio-political scenarios would be aggravated not by oil diplomacy, but by significant climate changes due to global warming….
There is even a potential scenario between this present and this far future…That the Iranians would totally control Iraq through this nuclear capabilities, or religious (Shiite) influence… But the real undercurrent could be a) the control of fertile lands of mesopotamia …. and b) total flexibility of mass troop movements over the Iraqi territories…against Israel.
Somehow, the rerun of ancient history is in the potential offing….
The US? Once the US completely shift to clean energy, there will be a some sort ‘withdrawal’ of American ‘interests’ from all these conflict areas – the Crescent of Conflict. There could be total economic consolidation of the Western World (the US and the European Union)…. And the ‘Eastern world’ would be ‘competing’ among themselves for ‘life support’ resources… Of course, history showed this is also a path towards more internal conflict among ‘concoction countries’… When these things happened, definitely there would be more distinct polarization not by any secular manner nor form, but on spiritual grounds… I think the world social, political, and economic order would remain interesting and exciting…
I think the advent of the age of Clean Energy with the backdrop of Climate Change would mark a major realignment of geopolitics… This scenario should also prompt Israel to accelerate their technologies over the ‘national survival and advancement’ fields.
As a process of realignment there could be some violent adjustments among relatively ‘arid’ and badly managed nations (with least food and non-petrol economic security)… And just like the Nazis the most plausible excuse to these crisis is for the troubled countries refocus or reproject peoples angers and sufferings to hatred against the Jews…. Israel again will be ‘wickedly’ politically used as a scapegoat…
You’re sure it’s a complete sentence? It doesn’t make the slightest sense?
My comment above was in relation to Witty’s comment here:
>> Its an important issue, but only a “cold war” one relative to Iran.
Now, let’s hear about how the only way to deal with Iran is to place flowers at its borders, to sing poetry and to avoid destabilization. Let’s hear about how talk of sanctions is maximalist and counterproductive. Let’s hear about how we need to avoid escalation.
Because the West sure as shit isn’t doing anything other than beating war drums and giving Iran full right to fear that it will face the same sort of righteous devastation that Iraq and Afghanistan – two other nations that presented no threat to either the U.S. or to Israel – have suffered.
The way to deal with Iran is to isolate it, by ending the occupation, reconciling between Israel and neighbors, and making the center of gravity of Lebanese, Turkish, Syria, Palestinian, Jordanian, even Iraqi economy and community Mediterranean, rather than central Asian.
And THERE, Ladies and Germs, you see the core complaint of the Jewish people: Abraham was born in the land of oil and money; he left it for the land of milk and honey.
Milk and honey market crashed — Jews and Capitalism and ‘creative destruction,’ wot…
Witty can’t STAND it that the wealth is in Central Asia; it oughta be in the Levant! God said so!!
Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot!
God was wrong? God can’t read a goddamned geological survey?
dear dear Witty. sooo very 16th century Richard Witty.
Roger Oscar Foxtrot Lima!
“The way to deal with Iran is to isolate it..”
So Witty is all for BDS when it applies to Israel’s enemies.
It’s a pitty there isn’t a more extreme word for hypocrisy , becasue when it comes to Witty, hypocrisy is grossly inadequate.
Contradictory maximalism?
I thought I was very clear in my elaboration, that the conflict in the middle east includes the fighting for the hearts and minds of Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, which depending on how Israel behaves, will either be Mediterranean centric or central Asian centric.
Is that a description of boycott? You guess, and nearly always wrong.
“I thought I was very clear in my elaboration,”
Yes you were. You said that the way to deal with Iran is to isolate it, not win hearts and mins in Iran.
Iran doesn’t need to be “dealt with”.
>> The way to deal with Iran is to isolate it, by ending the occupation, reconciling between Israel and neighbors, and making the center of gravity of Lebanese, Turkish, Syria, Palestinian, Jordanian, even Iraqi economy and community Mediterranean, rather than central Asian.
Perhaps we could add to that: By allowing Iran to pursue the civilian nuclear program to which, as a signatory of the NPT, it is entitled; to cease with the inflammatory/defamatory propaganda of Iran as a “rogue nation” and an “existential threat”; to lift all sanctions; and to remove all threat of air strikes and other military actions.
Anything less would be confrontational and destabilizing and you’re very clear that you dislike that type of thing. ;-)
A better way to deal with Iran is to fully engage with it.
Trade, exchanges and every other sort of dealing.
Welcome them fully into the modern world and let the Mullahs keep to their medieval theology, if they can.
I agree. Fully engage. But Americans are incredibly insular if they think that Iran is some backwards medieval country. Welcome them into the modern world? They’ve been there for some time, trust me. I wouldn’t hold the haredim up as some paragon of modernity.
it amazes me 200 year old American tadpoles presume to tell 3000 year old Iranians how to be frogs.
It amazes a lot of Iranians too from what I understand, the sooner that is understood in the US the better.
The Left ignores Israeli/Jewish suffering
Nothing about the thousand Jews in Israel , mainly women and children , who have been massacred by bombs, bullets and aids bombers in the war of genocide against the Israeli people known as the Intifada.
Nothing about the pregant Jewish mother and her four terrified small daughters , executed one by one by Arafatian goons.
Nothing about the five-year-old girl, Danielle Shefi, who was shot to death at point blank range by an Arab killer, while cowering under her parents’ bed.
Nothing about the Jewish mother and her 2 sons who were massacred in Kibbutz Metzner by an Arab terrorist, who shot them all to death.
Nothing about the countless Jewish children murdered in the last four years and the last 80 years in Arab pogroms against Jews in the Land of Israel.
>> The Left ignores Israeli/Jewish suffering
Plenty has been said about Israeli suffering and far too much has been said about Jewish suffering (“The Holocaust was the bestest genocide ever!”). By comparison, next to nothing – especially in the mainstream media – has been said about Palestinian suffering at the hands of Israel/Jews.
By the way, didn’t you get the memo that words such as “killers”, “terrorists” and “goons” are destabilizing?
The average American knows nothing at all about the plight of the Palestinians; they all know about the Holocaust; and have heard on the news and read in the press how Israel is our little ally in the irrational Middle East. That’s just my experience having lived in the USA for over 6 decades.
this post must have really hit a nerve shamir. i’ve always argued the most direct line towards peace is a shift of alignment in terms of recognizing what our most valuable strategic options are in the middle east. needless to say weening israel off our teet is at the top of that list. any fool can see friendship w/iran offers more …options.
Shamir, fucking tone it down. We all know how to use google, and you’re turning into an ass. countless Jewish children murdered in the last four years???
FACT:
“124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,444 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.”
link to rememberthesechildren.org
FACT:
“1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.”
link to ifamericansknew.org
MRW, when Zionists run out of fingers and toes, they get to “countless”.
Good one, Mooser. Laughed out loud.
The last four years statement is reasonable given that the original post he pasted here is dated May 23, 2005.
“aids bombers”
Shamir, can you tell us more about this? The Arabs have weaponised AIDS? Please, don’t keep information about this WMD from us.
Why do you seek to elevate and prioritise Israeli/jewish suffering above Palestinian suffering? Is it necessary or even useful to do so? People are dying in Mandate Palestine because Israel refuses to end the illegal occupation – and overwhelmingly it is Palestinians that are dying.
link to btselem.org
The 2nd Intifadah is over. The suicide bombing campaign has ended.
Calm down Shamir, get ahold of yourself:
link to youtube.com
Is that Golda Meir with the gun?
Tell us how you really feel Bubbie.
Israeli/Jewish suffering which allowed you to steal 90% of Palestine!! Looks like that suffering worked very well for you!
link to wnd.com
Palestinians consider Oslo ‘Trojan horse’
Leaders consistently speak of process as means to destroy Israel
scroll alert folks…
WIN! I was dying when I read that.
Just post a link so its easier, you know, not to read.
actually demize, when i posted the alert there were six back to back posts (including several links…) by shamir w/these timestamps:
May 12, 2010 at 10:38 am
May 12, 2010 at 10:41 am
May 12, 2010 at 10:51 am
May 12, 2010 at 10:51 am
May 12, 2010 at 10:52 am
May 12, 2010 at 10:52 am
after the first timestamp i attached the alert. of course once the thread starts filling up it isn’t as apparent someone is orchestrating a threadjack practically guaranteeing the thread will go off topic and stay off topic. these are pro trolls. an interesting observation is where they did it and why. the information in phil’s post is dangerous and threatening to the status quo in israel. the timestamps indicate the OT posts were written prior to posting and slammed on all at once relatively early in the thread.
here’s what’s missing. discussion of phil’s post. so what’s so damn interesting about joshua landis’s link that sets them all a tizz over at camera (just guessing but those links are telling)… must have really hit a nerve.
Good Intel work there Annie.
How long can Philip Weiss be silent on the genocidal aims of the Arabs.
link to camera.org
One day after the Ramallah lynching of two Israelis, Ahmad Abu Halabiya, a member of the PA-appointed Fatwa Council, called on listeners to find and butcher Jews “no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them.”
link to freeman.org
One week after the Dolphinarium bombing on June 1, 2001 in Tel Aviv in which 21 people, mainly young girls, were killed, PA television carried the sermon of Sheik Ibrahim Al-Madhi. He said: “Blessings to whoever waged Jihad for the sake of Allah; blessings to whoever raided for the sake of Allah; blessings to whoever put a belt of explosives on his body or on his sons’ and plunged into the midst of the Jews, crying ‘Allahu Akbar…’
Hasbara troll alert.
Shamir, baby, you wanta have a country, you gotta be ready for some pretty rough games. Sure, maybe the idea was that working the anti-Semite thing and the Holacaust thing would get you a pass, but it don’t work that way. All you’ve managed to do is degrade the Jewish religion and Jewishness, by using it for a sheild and excuse. Oh, it must mean so much to you Zionists.
And for God’s sake, please don’t run around yelling about how committed the Arabs are to wiping out the Jews! You know how anti-Semitic the world is, Shamir. Do you want the entire world to join in on their side? Mum’s the word, okay?
Shamir, thanks for such hard facts…. For so many days all we can see are facts presented against the Jews, and the Israeli government… Now at least we can weigh equally on these two conflicting views debated over this pages…
I knew the christian zionist zamass nutjob would be happy in the company of a far right ultra-nationalistic, fascist settler like Shamir.
Canines of a “feather” growl together!
“How long can Philip Weiss be silent on the genocidal aims of the Arabs.”
Well, when his pockets are filled with Qatar cash….
Hey! I am even ruder about Israel than Philip.
When do I get some of that oil money?
Philip Weiss says, Israel for at least a decade, but Syria and Iran seem prepared to play for time. The alternative to taking the long view for Syria is the loss of the Golan and national humiliation.
Please get your facts right.
Golan is historically Israels.
Great article.
link to xrl.us
“Golan is historically Israels.”
It might have been. then it belonged to France who then gave it to Syria.
The same way half of Palestine was given to Jewish immigrants.
The Golan was part of the British mandate borders of 1917 that was supposed to go to Israel.
Great Britain made a deal with France and illegally gave the Jewish Golan to the French who then gave it to Syria in 1946.
Syria controlled the Golan for only 21 years, half the period it has been under Israeli rule. Almost half of the Golan was purchased by Rothschild and later robbed by the Syrian government in 1946. Jews settled in the Golan as early as 1886 but they were expelled, massacred in 46
The Golan is where the tribes of Dan and Menashe settled, and Israeli kings ranging from Saul to Herod ruled there. The Golan saw consecutive Jewish settlement for 800 years; 300 Jewish communities from the time of the Mishna and Talmudwere discovered there, along with the remnants of 27 synagogues. Later, 1,000 years of desolation followed, until the Jews returned. The Golan belongs to us because it is the estate of our forefathers and not only by the power of occupation in a defensive waragainst an aggressor, like America in Texas and Polandand former German territories.
“Almost half of the Golan was purchased by Rothschild…”
Hey, Shamir, cut it out! You want to give the entire world all the reason’s it needs to oppose Israel. Did it ever occur to you that the Rothchilds may not be heroes to the rest of the world like they are to you?
The Golan was in Jewish hands in Hasmonean and Roman times, as archeological evidence attests. It was granted to the Jewish homeland under the League of Nations Mandate.
It was temporarily in Syrian hands until 1967 when Israel, responding to Syrian aggression, retook it. It’s now back in the hands of its rightful owner.
“The Golan was in Jewish hands in Hasmonean and Roman times,”
And of course, the Romans, being so much more powerful than the Jewish God, kicked us all out, right Shamir? And poor old Jewish God was really failing fast til the Zionists came along to help Him reclaim the land for the Jews? Do I have the theology right?
Or is Israel is the reward for the Jews consistently following, and never, ever failing the commandments? Excuse me, it’s time for a burnt-offering to my Golden Calf.
You will have to forgive me, Shamir. I went to a reform synagogue, where they told me God didn’t need any help, and knew what He was doing. So maybe they didn’t tell me how God can’t do a goddamed thing without help from the Zionists. I know, Shamir, I know, God helps those that help themselves… to other people’s land?
No Mooser, it was the Jewish God that forewarned the Israelites of the forthcoming conquest of the ‘princes’ (Romans)… because of their sins.
Meaning, the Romans could have not rose to power without the implicit ‘approval’ of the Jewish God…
Proof? see Daniel 9:24-27
“Proof? see Daniel 9:24-27″
All that proves is that someone wrote a fictional book called the book of Daniel.
Wait a minute, zamaaz, if God, I mean the “Jewish God”, punished the Jews for their sins by exiling them from their ‘hood, and kept them exiled for many centuries, wasn’t it contrary to God’s will to take it back in the 20th century? What made the Jews think that their punishment was suddenly over? And what about the Holocaust? What kind of sins brought that on? Would it have been against God’s will to resist? Were Wallenberg, Bernadotte and Schindler blaspheming by saving Jews that God wanted dead? While we’re at it, does the Jewish God punish non-Jews as well, or would that not be kosher?
I assume that you feel that your devout belief in your mythology justifies rule of Jewish people over goyim, but can you even contemplate that others, especially the subservient goyim, might reasonably reject your views?
The Jewish God also forbids the creation of a Jewish State.
Zamaaz s clearly not a Christian.
How can a fiction predict eventual historical events that have exactly happened more than 400 years after?
Nurse!
[Wait a minute, zamaaz, if God, I mean the “Jewish God”, punished the Jews for their sins by exiling them from their ‘hood, and kept them exiled for many centuries, wasn’t it contrary to God’s will to take it back in the 20th century?]
God (I would assumed you are referring to the same God of Israel), did say the Jews will be exiled to Babylon. It was fulfilled (6th Century BC). God again said the ‘princes’ will destroy Jerusalem and the Jews will be scattered abroad over nations. It was fulfilled (70 AD). But God said again He will gather again the Jews and restore Israel and Jerusalem, the city of David in the future… This again will be fulfilled.
Have you not seen before your own eyes, Israel has returned and rebuild as a nation again?
With the religious manner and way the Jewish scribes maintained their ancient scriptures, do you think the Book of Daniel was only written after 70 AD? Even the Jewish Gospels were written as early than that!
If you present your rebuttal rejecting relevant historical context and perspectives, you are inadvertently thrashing the Palestinian cause… Are you, or secretely against the Palestinian cause?
zamaaz, please don’t confuse your version of biblical prophecy w/relevant historical context. some sanity lease.
lol, or see mabel @ 4:20
whoops. i was responding to Proof? see Daniel 9:24-27
“The Golan was in Jewish hands in Hasmonean and Roman times, as archeological evidence attests”
Actually there is no archeological evidence, nor historical.
“It was granted to the Jewish homeland under the League of Nations Mandate. ”
False. No parto fthe Golan was even mentioned in the Balfour Declaration.
“It was temporarily in Syrian hands until 1967 when Israel, responding to Syrian aggression, retook it.”
False again. Israel attacked Syria and took it by force, illegally of course.
No country in the world recognizes it as part of Israel.
The Golan Has Been Jewish for Centuries These rotten Arab colonialists have stolen lands from Kurds, Berbers, Copts, Babylonians, Chaldeans and they want to steal Jewish lands as well. The Golan was part of ancient and modern Israel for centuries, while it was under Syrian occupation for a mere 21 years!! The archaeology of the Golan is proof that the Golan is Jewish. I personally helped dig up a Talmudic era synagogue in Katzrin which is now has a visitor centre. The only Arab land is (Saudi) Arabia. The Arabs can go back there!!
Aren’t the Palestinians descendants of the Caaenites?
>> These rotten Arab colonialists …
Dude, you need to get your hands on some green yarn, pronto. Your maximalism is becoming very destabilizing. I wonder why Mr. Witty hasn’t chimed in yet to remind you to be polite and non-confrontational…
” I wonder why Mr. Witty hasn’t chimed in yet to remind you to be polite and non-confrontational…”
Because Witty is afraid of Zionists!
Ever seen Witty challenge a single one of them, no matter how maximalist? Nope. Of course, they have a good hold over him:
“Don’t criticise us, Witty! Remember we know which settlement your son is at!
“Because Witty is afraid of Zionists! ”
No, it’s becasue Witty agrees with Shamir. If Blumenthal had Shamir on video, he’d be attackigng Blumenthal for carrying out a cheap stunt.
[Aren’t the Palestinians descendants of the Canaanites?]
No. But even if we assume for argument sake, the Canaanites were more than 10 centuries ago has been subjugated by the Israelites since the end of Babylonian Diaspora. Hence they ceased to exist as a ‘nation’. This historical fact supercedes their legal personality and rights for statehood issue.
The Israelites ceased to be a natoion over a thousand years ago, so what goes for the Canaanitts goes for the Israelites.
In any case, Istawl was created in 1948.
>the Canaanites were more than 10 centuries ago>
That’s 1000 years dumbo! Already, then, the Arabs were the masters of the land for 400 years! Have you ever opened a history book?
The Arabs have existed in the region were mentioned in the ancient scriptures as early as the days of David… But the thing is, it likewise mentioned the existence of kingdom of Israel under the reign of David…
As I said earlier, the fact that Lkndon is mentioned in the Harry Potter novel, The Deathly Hallows, does not mean that Harry Potter is real.
Look, Harry Potter has no an iota of relic.. Take for example this latest findings only this 2009 (three years after the denial by renown Bible critics):
Reclaiming Biblical Jerusalem
link to aish.com
Facts about the Jeremiah’s period:
“Mazar believes that the palace was used for Jewish monarchs until the destruction of the First Temple 450 years later. To indicate this, she speaks excitedly about a tiny clay item she found at the site (found on the 17th of Tammuz, the fast day commemorating the siege of Jerusalem before its destruction). It is called a “bulla,” a clay disc, inscribed in ancient Hebrew script with the name of the sender as a “return address,” used to seal papyrus scroll “mail.” The bulla bears the name of Yehuchal Ben Shelemiah,* who is mentioned in Chapters 37 and 38 of the Book of Jeremiah. Yehuchal was one of two emissaries dispatched by King Tzidkiyahu to Jeremiah, asking him to pray for the people during the siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In an about-face, Chapter 38 tells that Yehuchal was one of four ministers who asked the king to kill Jeremiah, claiming that he was demoralizing the besieged nation with his prophecies of doom and destruction. ”
These are proofs that the city of Jerusalem exist far back the days of Jeremiah. This was 6th Century BC. Take note: The core of contention is not Jeremiah nor the bulla, but the existence of the temple and the city of Jersualem… If these landmarks existed, as was written in the ancient scriptures (Tanak and the Bible), then we cannot reject the existence of the ancient Israel kingdom …
And Mazar’s latest discovery about the area leading to the Ir David (City of David)
“I am a scientist, not a philosopher. My focus is on how magnificent and enduring these complex structures are, that they were preserved and protected for so many generations. In truth, when I began to excavate, I had to be prepared for any result. I even had to be prepared to accept Finkelstein’s hypothesis if that’s what the facts indicated. Still, I am a Jew and an Israeli, and I feel great joy when the details on the ground match the descriptions in the Bible. Today it’s become fashionable to say there was no David, no Solomon, no Temple, no prophets. But suddenly the facts on the ground are speaking, and those outspoken voices are stammering.”
what are you nuts. the fact that london is mentioned in the harry potter novel doesn’t mean london is real. harry’s real god damn it, and so is david.
this sounds like it was written by J.K.Rowling:
It is called a “bulla,” a clay disc, inscribed in ancient Hebrew script with the name of the sender as a “return address,” used to seal papyrus scroll “mail.” The bulla bears the name of Yehuchal Ben Shelemiah,* who is mentioned in Chapters 37 and 38 of the Book of Jeremiah. Yehuchal was one of two emissaries dispatched by King Tzidkiyahu to Jeremiah, asking him to pray for the people during the siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In an about-face, Chapter 38 tells that Yehuchal was one of four ministers who asked the king to kill Jeremiah, claiming that he was demoralizing the besieged nation with his prophecies of doom and destruction. ”
Harry Potter has no an iota of relic
Yes it does! It’s called merchandising. Religions have been doing it for millennia (piece of the “one true cross” anyone? or a genuine John the Baptist knucklebone?)
No, this was a statement of a recognized Israeli archeologist…
seriously shingo , without recognizing the relevancy of man’s capability (or lack thereof) during the biblical era our lens becomes foggy. keep in mind complex fiction wasn’t developed until shakespeare for god’s sake. ok perhaps there was a little story telling once in awhile but not with the kind of detail we see in the ancient text. scribes never lied, it wouldn’t have occurred to them. they would have had their heads removed and swiftly! man just wasn’t evolved to the point of developing storylines from their imagination, that came much later. daydreaming, fantasy.. the history is established, irrefutably. there is simply no evidence whatsoever man was evolved enough to create complex fiction prior to the reconstruction.
The author of you Harry Potter wrote of a purely imagination… I do not read novels anymore… The statements about the findings over the ancient City of Jerusalem were made by a recognized Israeli archeologist who does writings from the discovered relics…
How shallow is you parallelism… Then you call me nuts? Have you not experienced one loose insane roving a street, and shouting at people ‘nuts’? I have seen several….
“To indicate this, she speaks excitedly about a tiny clay item she found at the site (found on the 17th of Tammuz, the fast day commemorating the siege of Jerusalem before its destruction).”
Yes, it’s always pieces of potter and tiny fragments fo clay. How pathetic that all the kingdoms throughout history have left massive structures a proof of their existence and all that’s ever found linking to ancient Israel is a few shards of pottery.
“The bulla bears the name of Yehuchal Ben Shelemiah,* who is mentioned in Chapters 37 and 38 of the Book of Jeremiah.”
Like I said, London is mentioned in Harry Potter, but Harry’s not real.
“These are proofs that the city of Jerusalem exist far back the days of Jeremiah.”
No they’re proof that a few pieces of clay were fonund, not the city of Jerusalem.
“If these landmarks existed, as was written in the ancient scriptures (Tanak and the Bible), then we cannot reject the existence of the ancient Israel kingdom …”
Like I said, London is mentioned in Harry Potter, but Harry’s not real.
“But suddenly the facts on the ground are speaking, and those outspoken voices are stammering.”
The only one stammering is Mazar.
Sorry. Come back to me when they find archeological evidence or David and Solomon.
“I do not read novels anymore..”
No, just the one Zammaz.
“The statements about the findings over the ancient City of Jerusalem were made by a recognized Israeli archeologist who does writings from the discovered relics…”
The fact that he’s an archeologist does not mean he’s not capable fo being delusional or seeing what he wanted to see.
“Have you not experienced one loose insane roving a street, and shouting at people ‘nuts’?”
Yes, plenty adn they are often carrying a Bible.
“this sounds like it was written by J.K.Rowling:”
Sounds more like Tolkien to me.
No, not that one (it is forbidden in the Bible to judge people as fools), that one with shaggy clothes, unkept bodies, and hairs…
[The fact that he’s an archeologist does not mean he’s not capable of being delusional or seeing what he wanted to see.]
The Israeli archeologist was not ‘seeing’… she was taking hold of a relic proving the fact… If one reject this real material world circumstance… that one that rejects must be delusional… Is it not in psychology, one sign of mental derange is rejection of reality?
Shingo,
I generally skip zamaaz’ ramblings, but reading your comment, I noticed that the archaeologist in question is Elat Mazar. She happens to be a complete wingnut and probably the most politicised archaeologist in Israel (a land flowing with milk, honey and politicised archaeologists). I wouldn’t trust anything she “finds” as far as I could throw it. Of course we’ve had all sorts of “finds” bearing coincidental inscriptions (which could of course just be coincidences even if real), such as “James brother of Jesus” (utter fake), or the “temple pomegranate” (another fake), displayed with such pride at the Israel Museum for so many years.
How can you judge clearly when you cannot perceive an existent thing before your eyes?
“No, not that one (it is forbidden in the Bible to judge people as fools), that one with shaggy clothes, unkept bodies, and hairs…”
Well, seeing as the Bible is a fiction, we’ll gladly ridicule you.
[she happens to be a complete wingnut and probably the most politicised archaeologist in Israel (a land flowing with milk, honey and politicised archaeologists).]
Wingnut, politicised archaeologists? or she could be that passionate believer of things she saw…
Anyway the proof of the pudding is in the eating… and we will see more, later at the conclusion of their diggings in Jerusalem…
“How can you judge clearly when you cannot perceive an existent thing before your eyes?”
It’s called evidence and deductive reasoning. You wouldn’t have a clue what that means, but it’s how scientists discovered the atom, something we will never be able to see with our very eyes.
Of course, you havdn’t seen God before your very eyes either.
Thanks Shmuel,
I suspected as much. I shouldn’t waste my time with this delusional and sick minded fool, but it can be amusing.
The sick thing is that Zamaaz is so desperate to believe this crap so that can realize his dream if seeing “the Jews” burn in he’ll.
[It’s called evidence and deductive reasoning. ]
No you are talking of deductive reasoning… The scriptures narrates of events during the times of Jeremiah, and mentioned the Kingdom of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, which was the existing capital of nation of Israel, and some characters involved in such event… Many centuries later a clay seal that carries the name of the said person was unearthed; now you call the scriptures fiction? and deny the existence of City of Jerusalem, and the kingdom of Judeah which as the center of the nation of Israel? Where is your sound deduction?
Look into this ‘fiction’ :
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24)
Take note that scripturally, at this instances one day for the LORD is one year for mankind. (Ezekiel 4:6)
The Fall of Jerusalem was about 586 BC.
In 536 BC Artaxerxes allowed the Israelites (led by Zerubbabel) to return
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Daniel 9:25)
In 457 BC Ezra was sent to Jerusalem teach the Laws of God under the order of Artaxerxes I In 7th year of his term (Ezra 7:) This was the same period rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem were started.
In about 408 BC after 49 years of work, the walls of Jerusalem were finished.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26)
After 434 and 3.5 (or 437.5) years, the temple oblation and sacrifices shall ceased. The tradition was ended because the veil that covers the Holiest of all was ripped off into halves, and the essence of sacrifices was voided. This incident according to the Gospels, was simultaneous to the death of Jesus of Nazareth at the cross. This was about 30.5 years AD. In the 34 AD the first Christian martyr was killed under the supervision of Saul of Tarsus. On that same year this Saul was given a new name Paul, the first (Jewish) Christian Apostle to the Gentiles.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(Daniel 9:27)
In 70 AD (about 40 years (within one generation) after the cruxifiction of Jesus of Nazareth ) the ‘prince’ by the name of Titus son of Vespasian the Roman Emperor sacked and destroyed the city to the ground.
A document written before the actual events that thoroughly happened no matter is the style of prose, is not a fiction but prophetic.
A fiction is supposedly written as derivative stories after certain events; or that there was no event that happened according to the stories.
If the ancient scriptures were fictional were did the writer derive the stories that happened many hundreds of years ago? Not by himself because he was born many centuries after… If the ancient scriptures were fictional were did the writer derive the stories that happened many hundreds of years ago? Not by himself because he was born many centuries after… Will it not be derived from another ancient writings you called ‘fiction’? If those ancient writings were fictions how come they happened exactly as they were told (by Daniel)?
I think the prophetic writings are not fictions, your mentalities and thinkings are…
“I think the prophetic writings are not fictions, your mentalities and thinkings are… ”
Like I said, the mention of London on Harry Potter’s The Deathly Hallows, does not make Harry Potter real.
>> The Golan was part of ancient and modern Israel for centuries …
I didn’t realize that modern Israel has been around for centuries.
Yes! Arabs to Arabia. Ashkenazim to Ashkenaz (Rhineland). Sefardim to Sefarad (Spain). Indians to India. Roma to Rome. Cretins to Crete. Philistines to Philistia. Indo-Europeans to Indo-Europe. Canines to Canaan. Laps to Lapland. Stones to Estonia.
Cretins to Crete. Canines to Canaan. Laps to Lapland. Stones to Estonia.
;-) And cans to Canada.
>> Stones to Estonia.
Does this include the Rolling Stones, or are they a different tribe altogether? :-)
>> ;-) And cans to Canada.
Or Canucks to Canuckistan. It may not be the “Promised Land”, but it’s a pretty nice one. :-)
Cans to Canada makes perfect sense, and I know who I’d send to Moosejaw ;-) Virginia is another easy one, although I’m not exactly sure who’d go to West Virginia. The Stones should definitely be sent to Estonia (although Mick would have to choose between Ireland and Disneyland).
For some reason, this song comes to mind.
Blossom Dearie? I love it!
So you forgive me for sending you up to Saskatchewan to be with your own kind?
“and I know who I’d send to Moosejaw ;-)”
No, I would have to go to one of the “Arab” countries, being Mooslim.
Heh. British Columbia is the most beautiful place I’ve ever been.
Must I return to Jew-Guinea? I have no frequent flyer miles.
Newbies to Mondoweiss,
Shamir is an archaeological ignoramus. He conflates “Arabs” with a slew of nationalities that existed in the region for thousands of years. He carves religion out of nationality, and makes idiotic statements and comparisons that no serious scholar would allow or entertain. Read an expert:
link to mideastfacts.org
This is the first time in such sane world that the one who have nothing to show as counter evidence told the one who holds proofs as ignoramus… No wonder, with this one basic factual situation, explains why the Palestinians are deprived to live in peace for so long… and their anguish and sufferings are prolonged…
As this war continues, charge it to the account of you scholars….
Which is more factual; the events corroborated by historical writings of other secular historians from other ancient nations, and supported by latest archeological findings, or those merely based on criticism of people (scholars?) who recognized insufficiency of knowledge over the historical issues?…
If the Bible is truly a fiction, why not show a complete negating proofs? That all these events and places mentioned in the Bible did not exist! We cannot just reject something that showed materials for its existence, on the grounds of insufficiency in knowledge over such thing, and the absence of other proofs we expected to exist… We have open minds…we welcome the rebuttal against our beliefs.
[The question about the date at which monotheism was adopted by the kingdoms of Israel and Judea arose with the discovery of inscriptions in ancient Hebrew that mention a pair of gods: Jehovah and his Asherah.]
In fact, this record could even be an excellent Biblical proof that ancient Israelites practice idolatry or corrupted belief? Which caused the Divine indignation leading to the Babylonian Diaspora…
And the most interesting fact is this document was written in 2006.. By 2010 Bullahs made during the times of Hezekiah has been unearthed in Jerusalem… These facts remain to support the existence of ancient Israel… and corroborates to the veracity of the ancient scriptures…
“Which is more factual; the events corroborated by historical writings of other secular historians from other ancient nations, and supported by latest archeological findings, or those merely based on criticism of people (scholars?) who recognized insufficiency of knowledge over the historical issues?…”
Easy. True historians use evidence and facts. No historian of any credibility cites the Bible.
“If the Bible is truly a fiction, why not show a complete negating proofs?”
You mean, prove that Mary didn’t undergo the immaculate conception or that Jesus never rose from the dead, or that Jesus walked on water? How about you prove that it can and does happen? What about Adam and even riding on the back of dinosaurs, or that the earth is really 600 years old?
“That all these events and places mentioned in the Bible did not exist!”
The city of London is mentioned in the Harry Potter Novels. Does that mean Harry Potter is real?
“We have open minds…we welcome the rebuttal against our beliefs.”
And then you ignore it and continue on. When confronted with facts you cannot explain away, you dismiss it as the work of the devil or that it requires faith to see through them.
“These facts remain to support the existence of ancient Israel… and corroborates to the veracity of the ancient scriptures…”
There are no facts and the scriptures were fiction.
End of story.
BTW Zammaz. How’s your educati8on coming along? Did you ever get to work on those encyclopedias?
[You mean, prove that Mary didn’t undergo the immaculate conception or that Jesus never rose from the dead, or that Jesus walked on water? How about you prove that it can and does happen? What about Adam and even riding on the back of dinosaurs, or that the earth is really 600 years old?]
Shingo, we believe in miracles… The scriptures teach us of those miracles and we believe on it… We encounter it in our daily lives…To us believers, every day is a miracle…Those mentioned above are miracles… Was it not written, “In thy faith thou shalt live”? And miracles are only for those who believe…
If you have not found miracles in your own life, it does not prove there were no miracles such as those…
Harry Potter did not bring us miracles, our faith did…
And by the way, to us, th Balfour Declaration was indeed a miracle…
And this single miracle is giving you all activists endless headaches… were not these endless (seemingly unresolvable) headaches miracles too? (These line seem familiar with The Fiddler on the Roof…)
There is nothing miraculous about the Balfour Declaration. It was was a fundamentally flawed policy that has lead to genocide and war. In fact, if Lord Balfour could have seen what his declaration would have lemed to, he would never have created it.
MRW, scroll up to my timestamp post.
Shamir is an archaeological ignoramus.
that’s the least of it. him and zamaaz carry the trollium postitus virus. they’ve infected the thread.
‘These rotten Arab colonialists …”
Why don’t you go all the way and call them ‘dune coons’? You know you want to. Rrowr.
There are people on here who constantly bring up this quote they say Dayan said in an interview in 1976.
Rami Tal who did the interview with Dayan in 1976 claimed in 1997, that Dayan told him Israel instigated Syria on the Golan in the 60s.
As EEE brought up on another thread, Tal waited 18 years after Dayan died to come up with the quote.
He never brought up the quote while Dayan was alive.
The interview was in 76, Dayan died in 81.
Why didn’t Tal bring up the quote while Dayan was alive?
He knew the quote was bogus and thats why Tal waited long after Dayan died to bring it up.
Someone posted on here that Dayan’s Daughter Yael said, that quote sounds like Dayan.
WOW thats some great proof, that sounds like him.
Yael Dayan is an extreme leftist who visited Arafat multiple times when he was ordering terrrorist attacks against Israel in Tunis.
I would also point out Rami Tal is another leftist hater of Israel.
To prove he made up the Dayan quotes.
Tal claims that Dayan told that 80 percent of the cross-border clashes between Israel and Syria in the years before the war were a result of Israeli provocation.
If this were true, then their would be soldiers who were under Dayan’s command in Israel who would verify this.
How come to this day, their is not one single soldier who was under Dayan’s command in the 60s who said Israel instigated Syria on the Golan.
The reason there is none, is cause Ral made up the comment.
This is the why Tal waited till Dayan died to come up with the comment.
By the way, I can see Rami Tal saying Ariel Sharon told him that Israel shouldn’t exist as a Jewish country. It should be a Muslim country.
You’re full of shit. The reporter (Tal) recorded the interview with Dyan.
Just turned off the auto-corrector. Promise!
“There are people on here who constantly bring up this quote”
Oh, really? I haven’t seen it.
Anyway, can we all accept the obvious facts and start doing the necessary research to find a cure for ziocaine addiction?
Of course, in Shamir we see it combined with good ol’ Munchausen-by-proxy, too.
“By the way, I can see…”
Yes, ziocaine can induce hallucinations, we know that, already!
“The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days. It was first authoritatively documented, in the 1950s, by Moshe Sharett, the dovish Prime Minister, who wrote of his Defence Minister, Pinhas Lavon, that he ‘constantly preached for acts of madness’ or ‘going crazy’ if ever Israel were crossed. Without a ‘just, comprehensive and lasting’ peace which only America can bring to pass, Israel will remain at least as likely a candidate as Iran, and a far more enduring one, for the role of ‘nuclear-crazy’ state.
Iran can never be threatened in its very existence. Israel can. Indeed, such a threat could even grow out of the current intifada. That, at least, is the pessimistic opinion of Martin van Creveld, professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. ‘If it went on much longer,’ he said, ‘the Israeli government [would] lose control of the people. In campaigns like this, the anti-terror forces lose, because they don’t win, and the rebels win by not losing. I regard a total Israeli defeat as unavoidable. That will mean the collapse of the Israeli state and society. We’ll destroy ourselves.’
In this situation, he went on, more and more Israelis were coming to regard the ‘transfer’ of the Palestinians as the only salvation; resort to it was growing ‘more probable’ with each passing day. Sharon ‘wants to escalate the conflict and knows that nothing else will succeed’.
But would the world permit such ethnic cleansing? ‘That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: “Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.” I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.”
by David Hirst Global Research, May 10, 2010
Guardian – 2003-09-21
So it seems in 1936 British realized that the unconditional support ( iilegitimate,blind, and based to some extent on some vague bibilical ideas popularaized by certain brances of “end timer”) to European Jewish causes is eliciting blowback and they tried to dump the Balfour-declration .
Is n’t Petraeus saying same and behind closed door isn’t Biden saying same?
It took a while for Arab to figure out what is going on. Their access to the power was limited and ofyen denied in those days. But eventually their analysis of the true zionist aims proved correct and they decided to rise against the beneficary and the benefactor. Today internet and You tube are doing same to bring facts to millions.Thats what were worrying Clinton when referred to the ‘information” age in the AIPAC meeting.
Ow come on, just say it straight – you are angry because many people are against on what you want (to destroy Israel) …
I only want to destroy Israel after you started to show over here. Before I was fine! If you stop polluting this site then I promise I’ll stop wanting to destroy anything. Your choice pea brain!
tgia, relax. don’t let the trolls get to you.
annie…You have to know me better..I’m cut out of a bloc of ice! One of absolute determination. Trolls rarely get to me (especially the dumb ones like zamass). OTOH, what got to me this morning, I have to admit, was to hear that Turkey, allegedly a “new friend” voted yes for Israel to be admitted within the OECD. A stab in the back is never a pleasant thing.
LOL! Don’t loose your cool man,… we are only measuring our ideas and views (debating) here, to realize we have no fundamental capacity nor authority to decide on the fate of the nations in conflict…
MRW, no your full of it.
If Tal was right, their would be soldiers who were under Dayan’s command in the 60s who would have verified what Tal said.
To this day, not one soldier who was under Dayan’s command has verified what Tal said.
To this day, not one surviving sailor of the USS Liberty gives any credence to the Israeli claim of a tragic mistake.
traintosiberia, You dont know a thing.
The British have always supported the Arabs.
Andrew Roberts wrote a great article detailing this.
The facts are this.
The British gave 75% of the British mandate borders to the Arabs in 1922 by creating a state with no Jews allowed to live in it. (Jordan)
The British gave out a white paper barring all Jewish immigration as millions of Jews were being murdered to appease the Arabs.
This while the British told the Arabs they can settle as many Arabs as they want.
Ask the British about a Kurdish state and see what hypocrits they are.
They want another Arab state, but no Kurdish state.
They dont want a Kurdish state, cause they think the Kurds and Israel will be allies.
Now get back to being paid off by the Oil lobby.
“Now get back to being paid off by the Oil lobby.”
I’m telling you, an EKG, a brain-scan machine, and one post from Mondoweiss. When the EKG machine goes off-the-chart, and the brain-scan video looks like a fireworks display, draw some blood, and start analysing! It’ll be there.
“The British have always supported the Arabs.”
The same British who took half their land and gave it to jewish immigrants?
Must be tough love.
“The British gave 75% of the British mandate borders to the Arabs in 1922 by creating a state with no Jews allowed to live in it”
False. Jews were allowed to live in Jordan until the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, in whicch 750,000 Palestinians were driven from the land.
“The British gave out a white paper barring all Jewish immigration as millions of Jews were being murdered to appease the Arabs.”
No such paper exists.
“This while the British told the Arabs they can settle as many Arabs as they want.”
Flase. Palestinian Arabs already lived there.
“Ask the British about a Kurdish state and see what hypocrits they are.”
Irrelevant.
“They dont want a Kurdish state, cause they think the Kurds and Israel will be allies.”
False. The Kurds now have Kurdistan.
The Balfour Declaration as I have said before was primarily a miracle for Israel, (despite of pro-Arab British thinking) a national decision we can much hardly understand…
It’s not very well known, but the leaders of the Arab world are meeting right now to determine the future of the United Kingdom. Rumor has it that the Arab leaders will issue a proclamation that promises full independence for Wales and Scotland, as long as it does not compromise the civil rights of English residents of those emerging nations.
one major flaw, the Arabs don’t control the UK.
Excellent point, yonira. The Arabs will first have to militarily conquer the UK, and then they get to decide its future.
But do you have a moral, ethical argument for why a British Minister’s 1917 declaration should get to decide the fate of millions of people who, according to him, should have no say in the matter?
Might made right in 1917. moral, nope, ethical, probably not, reality, definitely. There have been numerous injustices done throughout the centuries. It’s unfortunate, but again, reality.
Israel needs to accept responsibility for what they’ve done to the Palestinians, they need to accept the Nakba and come to a just solution, but one that is just for both sides. Two wrongs never make a right.
Arabs don’t control the UK
What, no more Londonistan? No more Eurabia?
>> Israel needs to accept responsibility for what they’ve done to the Palestinians, they need to accept the Nakba and come to a just solution, but one that is just for both sides. Two wrongs never make a right.
Well said. I hope the Palestinians get to have real, substantial, definitive input into this just solution.
The statement is best so far in sarcasm… Let us respect the Arabs whatever theyre opinions …
>> The statement is best so far in sarcasm…
Nah, I’ve seen better.
>> Let us respect the Arabs whatever theyre opinions …
Who said anything about unconditional respect? No one deserves unconditional respect – not the Palestinians (or “Arabs”, as you like to call them), not the Israelis, not the “nation of Jews” (eee’s term), not anyone.
Respect is earned and given to those who have earned it. You haven’t earned it, so piss off. :-)
[The Kurds now have Kurdistan. ]
That was after Saddam Hussein rule…
Shingo, you are denying the MacDonald White Paper of 1939?
No, just the claim that Jews were barred.
Edwin Montagu the British Secretary for stateof India , “Let us not for Heaven’s sake tell the Moslem what he ought to think,let us recognize what they do think”.
Balfour, “I am quite unable to see why Heaven or anyother Power should object to our telling the Moslem what he ought to think”.- -Paris 1919, Six Month that Changed the World.
The nation that drew its international validity and leaglity from Balfour and Lloyod George is possibly waiting for a rude awakening.
So, no wonder there was a bitter Zionist struggle against the British by those eras…
Yes, Balfour has been wondering in his graves decorated by East European Zionist .
This kind of smart talk meant to have a large, in depth geo-political scope is for the naif and it makes me laugh gently. One question: If the relations between Turkey and Israel are really deteriorating and not a Kabuki theatre, why then did Turkey vote in favor of Israel’s admission to the OECD when ONE vote could have been enough to bar Israel from being admitted? Wouldn’t that have been an ideal opportunity to demonstrate a real rapprochement with the Arab countries and a widening gap with the shitty little country? Whom are they fooling here?
Because despite of their Islamic homogeny, at the bottomline the Turks never trust the Arabs… The modern Turks are very clever eh!
“Because despite of their Islamic homogeny, at the bottomline the Turks never trust the Arabs… The modern Turks are very clever eh!”
And you are irrefutably racist scum eh?
It should be the other way around you pus sack! . The Turks subjected the Arabs to an implacable occupation for 800 years in case you didn’t know.
Gee, I’m really too kind to you! I’m teaching you stuff!
That is exactly my point…. because of that 800-year subjection, the Turks do not trust anyone…
The trouble with you is that you hate my arguments, yet you are supplying me with more solid arguments …
Seriously,… relax man… I do not intend to ”kill’ you with chest pains…
Yes we hate your arguments because they have no basis in fact, reality or evidence, and because you’re an uneducated illiterate moron.
“Whom are they fooling here?”
Well, apparently the Turks wanted some merchandise to get through to Gaza. So eventually they will look good, no?
Apparently not.
The freedom and peace loving Israelis look like they’ll have to defend themselves against this existential threat.
Israel training to block Freedom Fleet
link to maannews.net
Witty will arrive soon to denounce this maximalist approach by Turkey.
LOL Shingo, you missed the part where Erdogan agreed to stop the fleet for them.
Any link Yonira?
It might be that your sources are mistaken Yonira.
Turkish PM endorses Gaza aid convoy
link to palestinenote.com
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
You’ll have to argue that with the anti-zionist blog JSF
Sorry Yonira, you’ll have to excuse me for placing more credibility in Ynet news than a translated third hand account. Even your own link points out there are 2 contradicting reports.
of course Shingo, i’d expect nothing less from you.
[Yesterday, the Turks conveyed messages, and requested to reconsider the transfer of the trailers to Gaza — which would soften to some degree the criticism they suffered in the Arab world due to their support. Along with this, the Turks explained, if Israel would permit the trailers to reach the Gaza Strip, Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s government would be able to assist in preventing the protest cruise of a Turkish Muslim organization to Gaza — a cruise that could develop into a diplomatic incident if seen through. (Jews sans frontieres)]
Sending the relief by land is much better alternative diplomatic process than the ‘violation’ cruise… as this does not materially violates the essence of sovereignty…
What the fuck are you talking about you brain dead Christian Taliban nut job?
1. The flotilla would never enter Osraeli waters so, no, it won’t affect anyone’s sovereignty.
2. Crossing by land does mean entering Israel, unless it goes via Egypt.
3. The only party violating anyone’s sovereingty is Israel, who is imposing an illegal blockade.
Feeling the nut-cases in Sweden
link to youtube.com
Scary video! Did you hear those cries of Allahu Akhbar? Made my blood curdle! Feel the love and harmony in the mythical bi-national state!
good point, if this is their reaction to a 3 year old cartoon god knows how they’d treat their fellow statesmen after a 42 year old occupation ;)
The said videos further consolidate the facts that Islam is truly a violent and suppressive religious-culture … Even the issues of Gender Equality in the UN is predominant and utmost prevailing only in Islamic countries… It is for the western world to realize that….
Richard Dawkins on your “god”, zamass:
wow talk about the most irrelevant comment of the week. Allah is the god of the old testament, don’t tell those freaks in the video above!
thankgodimatheist, part 2 was even better. it’s available @ youtube.
Thanks Annie…I’ll have a look..
Ashwari Hanna has been reported in The Hill that the money raised by Marcus in USA is shipped to the settlers whose leaders have written a book justifying the killing of the gentile children so that they dont grow up to kill the Jews! The same guy called Bidena leper. One Israeli minister called the British condemnation of the passport affairs as the work ofan ungrtaeful dog!
You mean as irrelevant as your comment about my blog, yonira?
good point, i apologize
Apology accepted!
Maariv: Lieberman launching diplomatic offensive against Saudis , coteret.