I have been to the West Bank, I have seen with my own eyes how the settlers walk around with machine guns, terrorizing the native Palestinian population. They are only in the West Bank to justify a continued Israeli military presence there; and they are armed to the teeth.
Where did the settlers get their machine guns from? Where did the settlers learn that it is OK to hate Palestinians, that their presence in the OPT is justified even if it comes with the wholesale subjugation of a people? The settlers, the majority of them are trouble-makers who need to be removed from the Palestinian territories, asap.
The killing of the settlers was simply a reminder to everyone meeting in Washington that they cannot continue to ignore the democratically elected leadership of Gaza, no matter how despicable the West and Israel may find them. Most Palestinians, apparently with the exception of Mahmoud Abbas and his cronies, find all Israeli leadership to be even more despicable, more criminal and more violent than Hamas—but alas, they are left with no choice but to deal with them, no matter how many innocent Palestinians they have murdered.
Please don’t accuse me of advocating vigilante justice, because I don’t. But, those settlers are illegally squatting on Palestinian land, and the list of those responsible for what happened to them yesterday must include near the top the Israeli leadership that lured them from around the world into living in cheap, government subsidized housing with all kinds of welfare benefits so that Israel can continue its illegal military presence in the West Bank. Golda Meir said that there couldn’t be peace until the Arabs learned to love their children more than they hate Israelis… I posit that there won’t be peace until the Israelis learn to love their children more than they love the continued theft of Palestinian land.
And all of this talk of “why, why, why did Hamas do this?” Take a look at this list of settler initiated crimes against Palestinians from the last few weeks. What type of superhuman moral restraint do you expect Palestinians to continue? How long must they be intimidated by these thugs before they strike back? How long would Americans tolerate this sort of thuggish behavior before they fought back?
Jerusalem settlers assault 9 year old, parents say
Witnesses: Settlers beat 10-year-old Palestinian girl
Settlers harass family near settlement
Early morning settler attack on Palestinian family in Hebron area
Israeli Settlers Attack Families And The Military Abducts Two In Hebron
Masked settlers attack international peace activists in Hebron
Settlers Assault A Palestinian Woman In Hebron
Police: Family attacked by settlers after car crash
Israeli Settlers Attack Palestinian Farmers Near Salfit
PNI leader attacked by settlers
Witnesses: Armed settler threatens farmers
Dark days in Al Buwayra: a week of settler attacks
When Settlers Attack....Today (And Everyday) In The West Bank
Settlers Attack as a Palestinian Villagers try to Secure Water in the South Hebron Hills, Joseph Dana
East Jerusalem: Settlers Take Over Another House
Official: Settlers uproot 200 olive trees south of Nablus
Armed settler guards attack mosque in Wadi Hilweh, shots fired at Palestinian residents
Price Tag: Settlers riot after structures razed
Witnesses: Settlers raid house, burn crops
PA official: Settlers set fire to village land
Settlers Destroy Farm Lands, Troops Arrest Civilians And Invade Areas In Gaza
Israeli settlers try to seize lands in Jerusalem
Settlers torch farmland east of Nablus
Israeli settlers throw stones at Palestinian car
PA official: Settlers vandalize cars after Hebron shooting
Bus damaged by rocks near Nablus
Israeli army escorts 500 Jewish Israelis into controversial settlement near Nablus
and how many of these crimes have been investigated by the “authorities?”
… how many punished?
the seemingly infinite humiliation and abuse of the Palestinians by zionists, israel and especially the settlers (with IDF collusion) has coarsened and made brutal the soul of israel and it now festers with putrid rot … what monsters they have become in their quest to totally dominate
…recall when the Palestinian husband, with an American wife and daughters was killed in cold blood in mid-day a few months back. That death was ten times as tragic as the death of 4 settler crooks.
Play with fire, and they got burned.
Please don’t say that this litany justifies the murder of a family as one of “them”.
Will you blame the Israeli government for their deaths? For luring human shields in their bid to appropriate more land?
Projecting much?
Seriously, why does Mondoweiss let Witty troll? He goes around Nakba-denying to whip people up into a frenzy, and then when faced with a massive indictment of Zionist violence and race hatred — he still shouts at the top of his lungs, “It’s all your fault!”
See your son at the war crimes trials, Witty.
Please stop dismissing a compilation of recent crimes against Palestinians as a “litany”.
You’re indecent Richard, and show great disrespect to Seham. You didn’t even read her article in your usual dash to post first.
If you had you would have seen:
“Please don’t accuse me of advocating vigilante justice, because I don’t.” in addition to the closing paragraph. It’s not ambiguous, and it’s in no way a justification.
You’re just being antagonistic. Typical troll behaviour.
Yes it does not.But Israeli has forfeited any moral right to raise this issue.
When the Israeli do it they call it “liquidation” not murder.
I wasn’t clear BTW – were the settlers killed among the one who reside and terrorize the Palestinians of Hebron or were they of the more “innocent’ variety who just happen to steal and bully for a living?
I am asking because these are the kind of questions raised whenever a palestinian is killed, wounded or arrested.
Now, the settlers may be criminal thugs (though I am sure some of them are “nice” – to their own) but I don’t believe in the death penalty, period, not for anybody. And as many said already, this type of action, though having it’s own logic of sorts, the logic of the oppressed, will only beget more vengeance from the bad guys (be it from IDF storm trooper types, professional Shabak/mossad assasssins or the religious mobs, which grow ever faster in Israel). I did not like what the resistance fighters did to the French settlers either. in fact, those ill considered acts of wanton killing haunt algerians to this day. I wouldn’t with that on the Palestinians.
Honest, Witty, I just hate to see you gloat, which you do.
Seham isn’t justifying the murder. She is suggesting that, in the circumstances, it is understandable.
Not excusable.
Understandable.
And I will add that it is appalling to see so much publicity given to these murders, when the continual murders of Palestinians are ignored.
link to intifada-palestine.com
Clearly, Jews matter. Arabs don’t.
If you hadn’t posted that link, I would’ve.
The level of injustice that Palestinians see from Israel is stupefying.
This is Witty’s idea of “civilized”? From the army to the courts, from MKs under threat of criminal charges down to lowly levels of the administration, it needs to be taken completely apart & put back together again with equality and justice for ALL inhabitants of the land being the priority.
After I commented abouve that RW didn’t even read Seham’s article, but merely dashed (and in this case failed) to make the first post. This is trolling. I’m requesting RW be permanently banned from MW on that basis & would appreciate others input. The posts, timestamps etc.:
link to mondoweiss.net
Another litany; does it justify the dispossesion and slow genocide of the Palestinian people? link to events.colostate.edu
The tragedy is that these 4 people and hundreds of thousands like them were raised to embrace what is frankly a criminal lifestyle. The tragedy is that their government and the US government are their indulgent “enablers” who brook no dissent from their own or from those who suffer under their criminal occupation.
The US’s position as an “honest broker” is compromised not by the fact that there are so many Jews in positions of power & influence, but by the fact that there are so many fervent Zionists in those positions. Especially those for whom Israel feels as much a part of who they are as does the USA. For them, 51 States are indivisible. It turns them into patsys for Israel.
What will it take for these people to see the reality? I don’t think they ever will! There have already been too many crimes against humanity that have been successfully “spun” away. Massacres, murders, land theft, destruction of homes, maiming of children or foreign activists? Just say “Security” and it all goes away.
“The US’s position as an “honest broker” is compromised not by the fact that there are so many Jews in positions of power & influence, but by the fact that there are so many fervent Zionists in those positions”
That’s true. One of the most admirable Jews in a US gov position was Amb John Gunther, a German jew and Amb to Lebanon among other countries. I would suggest you go to the Carter Libray and read his oral history but the link to his oral history is the only one out of 30 that doesn’t work at the library….maybe because in it he describes an attack on him by Isralei cut outs because of his demand for even handed policy between Israel and Lebanon.
Maybe they disabled it because Carter has had enough zio attacks…I contacted them to ask what the problem was with that link but they haven’t replied.
The WB is infested with terrorist groups, totally supported by the Israeli government, which makes it a state supporter of terrorism. And who will be blamed? The victims.
Quit picking on Israel after all she’s been through:
link to youtube.com
LOL I love this, it’s hilarious.
Richard: it’s parody.
As always, we hear only of the “terrorist outrage” against poor innocent (illegal occupiers) settlers, and never a name of the dozens of Palestinians killed day after day, or imprisoned for peaceful protests, except in posts like this one.
Hamas has repeatedly vowed vengence in response to the Israeli killing of Hamas members such as that assassination in Dubai.
Just to put recent events in perspective
If you read the LA Times today, you would have no idea that the West Bank is occupied, that the settlers have come from outside….
Those poor settlers, beleaguered by 150,000 Palestinians!
Thanks for that list Seham. I noticed today that the so-called “liberal” Haaretz had a headline on the story of the settlers being killed:
“4 Israelis killed in shooting attack shattering years of relative West Bank calm“
As long as Israeli settlers aren’t being victimized, then its a”relative calm”. Any Palestinian being killed, injured, attacked, arrested, having his or her property expropriated, house demolished, or crops, trees or land destroyed can’t possibly shatter this “relative calm”, can it? Its a clear indication of whose lives and liberty are important and worth mentioning in Haaretz. Non Jews don’t count.
TREE- Exactly! Peace for Israel is a docile population in the occupied territories. If they start to raise their heads, you have to smash them down in order to keep the peace.
Excellent point, tree. This is yet another example of the classic dynamic of Israeli attitudes to the “conflict”. When things are quiet, there is no compelling reason to address the problem. When there is violence, “we don’t talk to terrorists” or “we will not negotiate under duress”. The end result is that it is never a good time to actually address the root causes of the “situation”.
I just got back from Israel, and the impression I got from people of almost all political persuasions is that Gaza is a violent write-off and the West Bank is an economic success story – the real key to defusing violence (“New Middle East” anyone?). One attack will not place the WB in the same category as Gaza, but Palestinian violence is always a boon to those who had no intention of negotiating in good faith in the first place.
>> As long as Israeli settlers aren’t being victimized, then its a”relative calm”.
As the self-professed humanist on this site might point out, violence by Israel or settlers against the Palestinians is a rock in the stream – likely the result of “generation to generation” fear-scarring – around which the Palestinians need to paddle as they attempt to humanize “the Other” and make “better wheels”. And create a new narrative, of course. Can’t forget the new narrative…
So, yeah, it sucks that Palestinians were attacked, but that’s all in the past and there’s no point trying to fix it because it doesn’t resolve anything. According to the self-professed humanist, that is.
Only news from neutral recognized, reliable sources, above
suspicion. Congratulations for your information objectivity, mondoweiss!
U.S. and western news agencies have a tendency to under-report and often omit entirely anti-Palestinians attacks. Numerous New York Times articles prove that simple fact. A series of videos produced by IfAmericansKnew.com provides the proof that US media has a tendency to play with the numbers and omit mention of incidents. Citations are provided in the videos.
Given such bias, what other source do you suppose is going to report on colonist attacks on Palestinians?
Even neutral human rights organizations have documented several cases in which Israeli forces attacked innocent civilians. There was no mention of these attacks in any American news outlet. One glaring example is the repeated ramming of a tractor by an Israeli army jeep. The two girls sitting in the basket at the rear of the tractor were killed.
Did the NYT front-page that attack? No.
Here is a recent film I just saw on the Sundance Channel about a Palestinian Christian family who comes to the USA after Shrub attacked Iraq because the familly was tired of being humiliated by Israelis at checkpoints–they move to Illinois, encounter what you’d expect from the local culture; the educated mother is forced to work at White Castle, a physicial uncle loses clients, is reduced to living in a basement, watching tv and complaining about how the news treats Palestinian casualties, Arab casualties, etc–but mainly it is a very
heart-warming immigrant story of the fish out of water: link to amreeka.com
a physician uncle
If only those “neutral, recognized, reliable” sources cared about the plight of my people. Unfortunately, those historically “liberal” and “neutral, recognized, reliable” sources are in the business of hiding Israeli crimes. Maybe Bronner, Kershner, Blitzer, or Gradstein? Is that who you had in mind? Yes, those beacons of “neutral, recognized, reliable”… with their their children and spouses that serve in the IDF or in Blitzer’s case, he was a paid propagandist for AIPAC.
I and many other liberal Zionists actually do care about the plight of your people, and we desire information that we can rely on, rather than information that we have to sift through in severe doubt.
I assume that you are writing here to persuade the audience that might come here, and not only those that are already sympathetic.
Maybe not, maybe this is “war” of ideas, and not an effort to discuss and inform.
Well, Witty! You know, David Duke cares deeply about your people too… he just desperately wants information that he can rely on rather than having to sift through in severe doubt.
Sympathy for the devil, huh?
Seriously. This is eerie. I don’t even have to work that hard to prove what you are anymore.
“we desire information that we can rely on, ”
You’ve given no indication of this. You support false criticisms of organizations like Human Rights Watch–when Richard Bernstein lied and said that HRW singles out Israel among Mideast countries, you defended Bernstein. HRW should be the sort of organization you’d defend if you meant what you say, but because they are critical of both Israel and its armed opponents, and not just its opponents, you welcomed Bernstein’s drivel.
JONAH- Care to share with us a short list of your favorite “neutral recognized, reliable sources, above suspicion?”
I’ll bet I can sum it up in one name — Haim Saban.
“those settlers are illegally squatting on Palestinian land”
The IDF should be the one advising civilians that they are in a war zone, but that is never the case. The settlers take the risks, so they should expect failure and death more often. I am surprised they get away with their criminal way of life anyway. So they pay the price, and Israel will milk this for all it’s worth.
Israel is becoming a pariah, no doubt.
Seham, I have no doubt that many settlers, especially the ones who are in the WB for ideological rather than economic reasons, are unapologetic racists who ruthlessly exercise their power to make life miserable for the Palestinians. They even resort to murder. However, this was not a spontaneous attack by a Palestinian driven by a last-straw incident to attack one of these cruel racists. This was a pre-planned murder of random settlers executed by an armed group (there may be some question as to whether it was Hamas after all.) The people who undertook this operation coolly decided that it was the proper course of action for reasons I cannot fathom. Assuming all of your stories are true (and I don’t have the slightest reason to doubt any), it could not have been a rational decision designed to alleviate the sadistic and cruel conditions imposed by the settlers upon the Palestinians.
However, this was not a spontaneous attack by a Palestinian driven by a last-straw incident to attack one of these cruel racists. This was a pre-planned murder of random settlers executed by an armed group (there may be some question as to whether it was Hamas after all.) The people who undertook this operation coolly decided that it was the proper course of action for reasons I cannot fathom.
David, let’s assume that they were indeed Hamas. How insulated do you think Hamas is from daily Israeli/PA aggression, violence, detention, siege to say that they “coolly” decided to carry this premeditated act of violence out? Surely you know what life is like for the average Palestinian, but specifically, you must know what it would be like to be a member of Hamas: isolated, always looking over your shoulder for Israel/PA to arrest you, put you in jail, torture you. If you are in Hamas and you are in Gaza you are target with an actual bulls eye on your forehead. If you are a supporter or someone who has sympathies for Hamas and you are in the West Bank then you are doomed as well because Israel and the PA is always hunting you. I mean, that’s what the PA does, they throw Hamas “sympathizers” in jail just like Arafat did, to show the Israelis that they mean business when they say they are fighting against terror. My point is that while it is easy for you to condemn this violent act because on its face it looks like premeditated murder, just how out of touch are you with what the average (regardless of political party) Palestinian endures?
Every single Palestinian in the territories has a relative who:
was killed by the Israelis,
arrested by the Israelis,
held up at a checkpoint and prevented from getting care from the Israelis,
Again, without appearing to justify what they did, lest I be accused of being a terrorist, do you think the men that murdered the colonists were living in an isolated bubble, far, far away from the occupation and all the horrors of the occupation? Do you think that perhaps what motivated them was something other than the “marching orders” they may or may not received? Here is something that I have never shared with anyone on this site, not even Phil, because it is too personal and emotional: my father had a heart attack in the West Bank, he was there visiting family. Doctors said if he would have gotten to the hospital in time, he would have survived. The taxi that was taking him to the hospital was held up at a checkpoint. We never got to see him before he died. I live in the U.S., I have not experienced a scintilla of what Palestinians living in the territories have. And do you know how hard I have to work to control the rage I feel inside of me? How Palestinians living over there do it, everyday, I can’t understand.
David
Those who would drop tons of white phosphorus on civilians, take out
hospitals and ambulances, leave over a million cluster bombs in
Lebanon in the waning days of that massacre, would have no
compunction in creating a cause to disrupt, or to gain an advantage,
in negotiations in which they have no legal or moral standing.
I take no pleasure in pointing this out, it is a necessary corrective
to otherwise naive views.
the kind of feelings created by the Israelis that the Palestinians live in rarely generate rational decisions.
David I have thought more deeply about our discussion yesterday vis a vis the attack on the settlers and I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t and won’t condemn – from a moral stand point although I will criticise the move from a political stand point – Hamas for attacking armed Israeli settlers as I believe they are a legitimate military target. The unarmed women and children are a different matter.
There is a strong possibility that if Hamas was given $3 billion in aid annually, F16s, Apache helicopters and various other military hardware as well as massive military donations from other US budgets Hamas would give up the suicide attacks and the shooting of settlers at point blank range. Let’s not forget the first modern-day founders of terrorism were the Irgun and Stern gangs who used terrorism to steal, kill and ethnically cleanse Palestine so that they could establish a Jewish state.
My reasoning is as follows: I’m sure there are many IDF soldiers who are probably decent people and have never killed or brutalised Palestinians. However, as they are a collective armed organisation trained to fight and they target Palestinians indiscriminately they are a legitimate target.
The male settlers too are largely armed and trained and serve in the IDF as well. They work in collaboration with the IDF from their quasi-military outposts. These armed settlers as a collective organisation known as the Yesha Council are using force of arms to steal, kill and plunder. Ergo they are bordering on the category that the IDF soldiers fall into and therefore, in my opinion, are a legitimate target. Palestinians have the right to fight armed occupiers.
“David I have thought more deeply about our discussion yesterday vis a vis the attack on the settlers and I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t and won’t condemn – from a moral stand point although I will criticise the move from a political stand point – Hamas for attacking armed Israeli settlers as I believe they are a legitimate military target. The unarmed women and children are a different matter. ”
You won’t condemn it because you’re a moral coward. The fact of the matter is that this was cold-blooded murder, and the murderers did not look to see whether they were killing men or women or children. They were targeting civilians.
“Irgun and Stern gangs who used terrorism to steal, kill and ethnically cleanse Palestine so that they could establish a Jewish state.”
Let’s not forget that the Irgun and Stern gangs have not been around for over 60 years and that the extent of their terrorism was nothing compared to Hamas, and that both were repeatedly and consistently condemned by the mainstream Yishuv.
When Hamas blows up an apartment building and kills a thousand people, are you going to trot out the Stern Gang again?
“Ergo they are bordering on the category that the IDF soldiers fall into and therefore, in my opinion, are a legitimate target. Palestinians have the right to fight armed occupiers. ”
Then you believe in a position which is against international law. You’re defending murder.
-”Let’s not forget that the Irgun and Stern gangs have not been around for over 60 years and that the extent of their terrorism was nothing compared to Hamas”
Irgun and Stern, may be gone 20 years, but the IDF and the settler movement, the dynamic pair they are, are continuing to do what Irgun and Stern did years ago; eradicate the Palestinians to serve the interests of their growing state.
And, there’s no need to call anyone a ”moral coward’, when we know the score of dead among the two waring tribes. You love, simply love, to defend murder in the name of security. You, do it all the time. When have you said that the killing of the civilians is a crime in Gaza during Cast Lead?
“Let’s not forget that the Irgun and Stern gangs have not been around for over 60 years and that the extent of their terrorism was nothing compared to Hamas, and that both were repeatedly and consistently condemned by the mainstream Yishuv.”
Big deal. It wasn’t the Irgun and Stern gangs which drove out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and refused to let them back home–it was the mainstream Zionists.
“When Hamas blows up an apartment building and kills a thousand people, are you going to trot out the Stern Gang again?”
Israel bombed apartment buildings in the 1982 war and they killed 1000 civilians in Gaza.
“Then you believe in a position which is against international law. You’re defending murder.”
I’m not sure myself what category armed illegal occupiers hold in international law. Well, I assume they are criminals, but I don’t know where one draws the line between soldiers and the kinds of armed civilian bullies one reads about that terrorize Palestinians. I think the action we’re discussing is murder–even criminals shouldn’t be gunned down in the streets. But Israel is a massive violator of international law–does this concern you? I’m guessing not.
Let’s not forget that the Irgun and Stern gangs have not been around for over 60 years and that the extent of their terrorism was nothing compared to Hamas
The Jewish terrorist gangs have not disappeared, they have taken over the monopoly of power and now call themselves legitimate. “Israel is only defending itself.”
It is the same violence, the same terrorism, only now with uniforms and flags and international support. And the casualties they have inflicted are far, far, worse than anything Hamas can dream of.
“For reasons I cannot fathom.” Really?
From the Whatreallyhappened website:
” Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the grounds that “it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets.” The selected moral targets in those early days of the founding of the state of Israel included bombing of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin.”
This is a very good exchange of ideas. Recently many Palestinians have decided to carry on their resistance using nonviolent methods modeled after the teachings of Gandhi. This latest act of violence probably by one Palestinian faction or another is putting those teachings to a test. After all, as is so obvious to many, the Israelis are even more violent. There is a temptation to excuse Palestinian vengeance because the violence is so one-sided.
But as an historical note, the British colonization of India was just as violent and oppressive as what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today. Gandhi insisted that his followers do not respond in kind. He taught that vengeance corrupts the soul. Today we should support those Palestinians that have decided to pursue a non-violent resistance. We should condemn those factions that pursue violent resistance. Whoever they are (maybe Hamas, maybe some off-shoot ) they have proven their inability to advance justice for the Palestinians. I happen to believe that a non-violent movement by the Palestinians will resonate in the US. Violence will simply give credence to the Zionist line that they are the world’s perpetual victims (at least in the US public arena). Given that Israel’s major advantage in its war against the Arabs is the support inside the US then it is only prudent to remove their victimization story line.
This will be a painful road to follow for we can fully expect the Israelis to continue to engage in their violent oppression — we will witness even more massacres, targeted assassinations, house demolitions, arbitrary arrests and the many other Zionist tactics that have been perfected to oppress the Palestinians. And we will have to witness our government continuing to support these actions with “but Israel has a right to defend itself”. In spite of these insults, non-violent dissent only works if it remains nonviolent.
“I happen to believe that a non-violent movement by the Palestinians will resonate in the US. ”
But Americans will never hear about it.
I wish I could believe that it would resonate with Americans even if they did hear it, but these are the same Americans I witnessed cheering with joy at war footage of bombs dropping on Iraqis.
Thanks Seham for this list..I had a similar idea in mind for a post on my blog but quit after I found how time consuming it was..But you saved my day.
Aside note:
Now people please remember..A Palestinian is “killed” but an Israeli is “murdered”..
Thanks Seham for putting this incident in perspective.
None of it is murder. Stop trying to justify the murder of civilians.
So only Jews qualify as civilians? Or is it that Palestinians don’t qualify for human rights?
What’s not murder? The regular ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians? What is it, “self-defense?”
You can put money that our MSM will not be reporting about any of these abuses. You can also bet that none of our so called progressive bloggers who end up in the national spotlight (Jane Hamsher, Laura, Markos, Cenk, Katrina, Arianna Huffington, Joan Walshetc ) will mention these human rights abuses either Not a whisper,
Well that is except for Glenn Greenwald
They’re not reporting the daily incitement on Palestinian TV either, so I’d say it’s a wash.
They probably aren’t reporting when BYahoo cuts a fart, either, speaking of inconsequentialities.
If you want incitement, go listen to Ovadia Yosef’s sermons.
As opposed to Israeli TV, huh?
folks wondering if any of you would be willing to contact the Diane Rehm Show or Talk of the Nation and ask them to have a show on the most progressive blogs covering the I/P conflict? Would really like to hear Phillip Weiss, Prof Cole, Flynt Leverett on a show discussing where a person can go and discuss these issues openly, honestly, fact based and also where you can challenge and even criticize without being banned or vindictively attacked for challenging.
Have had quite a few successes requesting particular guest and shows. They are receptive to these request. Phillip Weiss and Max Blumenthal would be great guest on the shows.
The Diane Rehm show contact info
link to thedianerehmshow.org
Talk of the Nation..contact info
link to help.npr.org
Please contact