159 Responses

  1. David Samel
    January 3, 2011, 10:59 pm

    Great find, Pamela. It was both brilliant and hilarious. Compare it to the Caroline Glick “We Con the World” video, which was not only extremely offensive but pathetically unfunny.

  2. annie
    January 3, 2011, 11:04 pm

    please tell me this is satire? SNL israel style?? please. this cannot be real.

    • annie
      January 3, 2011, 11:07 pm

      never mind! i watched it again. phew..what a relief!

    • jon s
      January 4, 2011, 1:33 am

      Annie, of course it’s satire, from the Israel Channel 2 program ” Eretz Nehederet”.

  3. iamuglow
    January 3, 2011, 11:35 pm

    That was brilliant. “Our Problem is PR” haha…..

    ‘sorry, I meant demographic threat’

    hehehe

    Whom ever wrote that should be made Prime Minister.

  4. iamuglow
    January 3, 2011, 11:46 pm

    The user who posted that to Youtube, also had this video which is worth watching/distributing

    • Shingo
      January 4, 2011, 7:01 am

      The user who posted that to Youtube, also had this video which is worth watching/distributing

      Not one of them could make a sound argument and could barely string a sentence together.

      Now I know where Witty get’s it from.

    • annie
      January 4, 2011, 8:29 am

      that video is worth front paging. quite revealing.

  5. pjdude
    January 3, 2011, 11:57 pm

    I find it hard to find it funny because that is more or less what Israeli schools teach except just nowhere near that overt

  6. Pamela Olson
    January 4, 2011, 12:32 am

    Yeah, it’s funny because it’s true.

    BTW, if anyone wants to help me design the cover for my book…

    link to fasttimesinpalestine.wordpress.com

    • Taxi
      January 4, 2011, 9:04 am

      yonira,

      I see your mean streak strikes AGAIN at a non-violent activist.

      You got your orders from Bibi to target them, finally and out in the open now eh?!

      • marc b.
        January 4, 2011, 9:47 am

        nothing like milking Mondoweiss for free publicity, did you find a publisher yet?

        what a petty, supercilious jack*ss. as if you give a flying fig about poor, put upon MondoWeiss. if you hadn’t noticed, PWeiss liberally permits authors, artists, activists, etc. to utilize the site to exchange ideas, and, yes, even promote their books. (gasp!) as for publication, try stringing together a couple of complete, grammatically correct sentences of your own before offering your juvenile, underhanded critique.

      • yonira
        January 4, 2011, 6:59 pm

        You are right, it was a low blow Pamela, please accept my apology.

      • Pamela Olson
        January 4, 2011, 8:57 pm

        Apology accepted, though the insult didn’t hurt because it didn’t reflect on me. But thanks to the others for coming to my defense anyway.

    • lareineblanche
      January 4, 2011, 10:14 am

      yonira, come on, that just stinks. All you’re doing is confirming to everyone that they should ignore your comments. If that’s your goal, fine.

    • Pamela Olson
      January 4, 2011, 12:09 pm

      Not helping much with that PR problem, yonira… :)

    • Potsherd2
      January 4, 2011, 4:08 pm

      Comment reported, with no consequence, as usual

  7. hophmi
    January 4, 2011, 8:12 am

    Yes, satire is what happens in a free and open society. Show me an Arab show that makes fun of its government on TV, let alone a Palestinian one.

    • Ethan Heitner
      January 4, 2011, 9:01 am

      Hi Hophmi:
      Here is a rather famous Lebanese satirical TV show’s clip making fun of Hezbollah from a few years back:
      link to youtube.com
      I had to do about 10 seconds of googling to find Palestinian TV satire:
      link to english.aljazeera.net

      Now show me an Israeli who has the courage to satirize their government when they are under military occupation.

      • Mikhael
        January 4, 2011, 8:11 pm

        Ethan–

        Yes, and after that Hezbollah-mocking satirical clip was aired, Hezbollah supporters rioted and the show was taken off the air, as the link you posted makes clear.

        As hophmi pointed out, Israel is a free society where self-criticism and satire reign–this is often lacking in Arab/Muslim societies.

        Back in the 1990s, shortly after the PA was established in the West Bank, al Jazeera aired a documentary about the PLO in Lebanon and there was a brief clip of an anti-Arafat protest in Beirut where it showed a demonstrator holding a poster of Arafat with a shoe draped over it, a mortal insult in Arab society. Al Jazeera was banned for months from the Palestinian territories as a result of that offense and its reporters could only operate from inside Israel, of all places.

      • Philip Weiss
        January 4, 2011, 8:33 pm

        but mikhael, taking this as true, what follows from it? the denial of the rights of 5-6 million Palestinians? zionists chose their neighborhood and now all they do is complain about the neighbors,and the u.s. is occupying at least one of em.

      • wondering jew
        January 4, 2011, 11:35 pm

        Phil, what you’re saying is true, but you should acknowledge that the one state solution will not result in a country resembling America’s openness and democracy, but something much worse. In the end it is Israel’s responsibility to find a way to give as much freedom as possible to the people under its domain and to find a way to get along with its neighbors and its failure to do so is quite glaring. But those who propose the one state solution should not ignore the realities of the types of governments and societies that are prevalent in the neighborhood.

      • Shingo
        January 5, 2011, 1:49 am

        Phil, what you’re saying is true, but you should acknowledge that the one state solution will not result in a country resembling America’s openness and democracy, but something much worse.

        Are you suggesting that Israel is not a progressive democracy WJ? Are you telling us that the US and Israel DO NOT share common values after all?

        But those who propose the one state solution should not ignore the realities of the types of governments and societies that are prevalent in the neighborhood.

        And so you blame these failings on the Arab states? How typical!

      • wondering jew
        January 5, 2011, 7:27 am

        Just to amend what I said: I think Israel has made an effort to find a way of getting along with its neighbors- those that are sovereign states. It is its duty to find a way to give the West Bank and Gaza as much freedom as possible, where its failure is glaring.

      • eljay
        January 5, 2011, 9:14 am

        >> As hophmi pointed out, Israel is a free society where self-criticism and satire reign–this is often lacking in Arab/Muslim societies.

        A glossy layer of self-criticism and satire fails to detract from the fact that:
        – Israel continues to engage in aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder; and
        – peaceful protesters in Israel are frequently assaulted, arrested, tortured and/or killed.

        Israel appears to have a lot in common with those “Arab/Muslim societies” to which it claims to bear no resemblance. As far as “free societies” go, it’s a pretty poor role model.

      • marc b.
        January 5, 2011, 9:57 am

        But those who propose the one state solution should not ignore the realities of the types of governments and societies that are prevalent in the neighborhood.

        this is the same racialist argument made by european jews in opposition to herzl’s plan for a zionist state in palestine: that exposure to oriental types would necessarily debase european culture. you may not acknowledge it consciously, but you are arguing that gentiles can never be incorporated into israeli civil society as equal partners. even in the context of a two-state solution, there will be a significant muslim minority.

      • Shingo
        January 5, 2011, 3:02 pm

        I think Israel has made an effort to find a way of getting along with its neighbors- those that are sovereign states.

        You needn’t have bothered, because it’s demonstrably false. 22 of those states signed a peace offer to normalize relations with Sistael and Israel rejected it.

      • Mikhael
        March 7, 2011, 9:24 am

        “zionists chose their neighborhood ”

        They chose it the same way any nation “chose” its neighborhood. Zionism is the national movement of the Jewish people in its historic homeland, and in the case of the Jewish people, that homeland happens to be Israel.

      • Avi
        March 7, 2011, 9:57 am

        Mikhael March 7, 2011 at 9:24 am

        “zionists chose their neighborhood ”

        They chose it the same way any nation “chose” its neighborhood. Zionism is the national movement of the Jewish people in its historic homeland, and in the case of the Jewish people, that homeland happens to be Israel.

        Nonsense.

        1. Jews are not a nation. So, how can Zionism be a national movement?

        2. Jews live and belong to several nations, unless you don’t consider the US, Canada, Britain, France or Germany your real nation. Are you a dual-loyalist?

        Besides, anyone can designate any piece of land as his/her “historic Homeland”. That doesn’t make it so.

        Persians, Italians, Greek, Turks and Syrians have just as much an historical claim to the land as any Jew.

        History is not in the scriptures. You’ll actually have to walk into a library and open a book to learn some history.

      • jon s
        March 7, 2011, 3:29 pm

        Avi,
        The Jews are a nation, because millions of Jews have so determined. You remind me of the right-wing Israelis who used to deny the existence of a Palestinian people. No one has the right to deny other peoples’ identities.

        Here are three dictionary definitions of “nation”:
        Oxford
        a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory:

        Cambridge
        a large group of people of the same race who share the same language, traditions and history, but who might not all live in one area

        Webster
        A part, or division, of the people of the earth, distinguished from the rest by common descent, language, or institutions; a race; a stock.

        The Jews fit the definitions.

        If you’re denying that Israel is the Jewish homeland, you’re ignoring the historical and archaeological record, as well as the more intangible – but no less important- factor: a people’s memory.

      • eljay
        March 7, 2011, 3:34 pm

        >> The Jews are a nation, because millions of Jews have so determined.

        Last December, in this thread, you wrote that non-Jews could become “culturally Jewish”.

        So, what does a “Jewish nation” mean if non-Jews can determine themselves to be (culturally) Jewish?

        And does, say, a self-determined Palestinian Muslim Jew get to be part of the “Jewish nation”?

      • eljay
        March 7, 2011, 3:47 pm

        >> And does, say, a self-determined Palestinian Muslim Jew get to be part of the “Jewish nation”?

        Correction: And does, say a self-determined Palestinian Muslim Jew get to be an equal member in the “Jewish nation” (the way a Palestinian Muslim Canadian gets to be an equal member of Canadian society)?

      • jon s
        March 7, 2011, 4:01 pm

        You can be either a Muslim or a Jew, so there’s no such thing as a “Palestinian Muslim Jew”.

      • jon s
        March 7, 2011, 4:10 pm

        And what’s the problem with having dual loyalties?
        Like you can love both your Mom and your Dad.

      • Richard Witty
        March 7, 2011, 4:18 pm

        Halachically, you can be a Muslim Jew.

        A daughter of a daughter…. of a Jew, is a Jew.

      • Richard Witty
        March 7, 2011, 4:21 pm

        Halachically, you can be a Muslim Jew.

        A daughter of a daughter…. of a Jew, is a Jew.

        Even the ultra-orthodox, that pray for the return of the scion of David, don’t have a clue if that descendant will be a Jew, a Muslim, an atheist. They assume that Moshiach can only be a Jew, but noone really knows.

        Noone really knows if Moshiach is a person, or a community, or a collective psychology resulting from so many charitable spirits walking the planet that an intervening Moshiach is unnecessary.

      • Chaos4700
        March 7, 2011, 4:39 pm

        “Used to deny?” Jon S, why are you using past tense when there are Israelis who still talk like that today.

        “Jewish” is a religion and an ethnicity. It has only been a nationality since 1948, and that nationality has bathed itself in blood and stolen wealth ever since.

        If you ask me, religious and ethnic Jews need to dump nationalistic Jews like the abusive, double-talking boyfriend they often act.

      • eljay
        March 7, 2011, 5:03 pm

        >> You can be either a Muslim or a Jew, so there’s no such thing as a “Palestinian Muslim Jew”.
        >> And what’s the problem with having dual loyalties?
        Like you can love both your Mom and your Dad.

        Neither of those comments answers my questions. You say Jews are a “nation”, but you have also said that non-Jews can declare themselves to be “culturally Jewish”.

        Given that, what does a “Jewish nation” mean if non-Jews can determine themselves to be (culturally) Jewish? And if a Palestinian Muslim or a Christian Kurd declares himself to be “culturally Jewish”, does he get to be an equal member of this “Jewish nation”?

      • Avi
        March 7, 2011, 5:06 pm

        You remind me of the right-wing Israelis who used to deny the existence of a Palestinian people. No one has the right to deny other peoples’ identities.

        Who used to? They still do.

        And no one is denying anyone anything, you moron. What makes Jews a nation, the fact they share a tradition? So what? Boy Scouts share a tradition. That doesn’t make them a nation.

        And don’t for a moment pretend as though you’re setting yourself aside, separate from the right wing in Israel. Your comment history is chalk full of right wing tropes and talking points. Spare me your garbage and that of your fellow Zionist hacks.

      • Avi
        March 7, 2011, 5:10 pm

        If you’re denying that Israel is the Jewish homeland, you’re ignoring the historical and archaeological record, as well as the more intangible – but no less important- factor: a people’s memory.

        Apparently hacks like you have a memory that predates their birth. But, that’s beside the point.

        There is no archeological record that supports Israel’s existence in its current form.

        Provide some specifics and perhaps then one can start to assess the validity of your claims.

      • Avi
        March 7, 2011, 5:11 pm

        jon s March 7, 2011 at 4:10 pm

        And what’s the problem with having dual loyalties?
        Like you can love both your Mom and your Dad.

        I’m done talking to children. This is pathetic.

      • annie
        March 7, 2011, 5:12 pm

        There is no archeological record that supports Israel’s existence in its current form.

        they’re going to be finding it any minute tho and are digging as we speak.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jebusites (Hebrew: יְבוּסִי, Modern Yevusi Tiberian Yəḇûsî ISO 259-3 Ybusi) were a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem

      • fuster
        March 7, 2011, 5:27 pm

        There is no archeological record that supports Israel’s existence in its current form.

        that’s a sentence to savor. good one, Avi

      • Shingo
        March 7, 2011, 7:00 pm

        You know what Avi was saying fuster.

        Don’t you have anything better to do that sitting in the corner and throwing faeces at passers by?

      • Avi
        March 7, 2011, 7:29 pm

        that’s a sentence to savor. good one, Avi

        I’m glad you like it.

        I think you’re bored and you’re looking for someone with whom to play. I suggest you go play with yourself as you seem used to doing.

      • jon s
        March 8, 2011, 12:45 am

        Eljay, I never said anything about being “culturally Jewish” . Maybe you have me confused with someone else. Be that as it may, the concept itself is interesting and yes, there’s no problem from my part to accepting “cultural Jews”. Of course the Orthodox would require them to convert.

      • jon s
        March 8, 2011, 12:54 am

        Here’s one for adults: you can love both Lennon and McCartney.

    • marc b.
      January 4, 2011, 9:35 am

      and on cue here comes hoopmi satirizing him/herself. the point of satire is that it is intended to illustrate an injustice in the hope of waking the members of the offending society from their collective stupor, the offense here being the rigid, self-absorbed, doctrinaire mindset so prevelant among israeli zionists. so, no, the fact that this satire made it on TV is not necessarily the sign of a ‘free and open society’. in fact it could be interpreted as just the opposite, the authorities having no real fear that it would make a dent in the numbskull group psyche illustrated by the likes of . . .

  8. Leper Colonialist
    January 4, 2011, 8:30 am

    It’s proven – no Israeli satirist is goingto make anyone forget Jonathan Swift anytime soon.

    • Tuyzentfloot
      January 4, 2011, 2:40 pm

      What a coincidence, I was just going to offer a modest proposal for dealing with the demographic threat.

  9. hophmi
    January 4, 2011, 9:43 am

    Of course, the Palestinian example offered criticizes America, not the PA. Show me an Arab satire that criticizes an Arab government.

    • Chaos4700
      January 4, 2011, 10:21 am

      Nobody cares about your stupid strawman, hophmi. We’re too busy laughing at Israel.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 10:28 am

        You’re capable of laughter, Chaos? That’s good. You’re not as messed up as I thought.

        It’s easy to duck an argument by wrongfully referring to it as a strawman. The fact is that such satire is the norm in Israel, and the great exception in the Arab world.

      • Chaos4700
        January 4, 2011, 10:33 am

        Yes, now that your house of cards has fallen you have to try and bully me. We’ve all been through this idiocy before, hophmi. You know what else is exceptional about Israel? Nuclear rogue state. Right down to selling the tech for cash.

        You guys are the world’s most despicable terrorists.

      • Chu
        January 4, 2011, 10:47 am

        Chaos, he’s not a terrorist. He’s a terrorist supporter and defender of fascism. But inside his bubble, it’s just the right thing to do for himself and his tribe.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 10:49 am

        “Yes, now that your house of cards has fallen you have to try and bully me. ”

        I’m bullying you? How, exactly?

        “You know what else is exceptional about Israel? Nuclear rogue state. Right down to selling the tech for cash.”

        And you were talking about strawman arguments? I believe we were talking about satire here.

        “You guys are the world’s most despicable terrorists.”

        Uh-huh. I’m not Israeli, Chaos. But I can think of more despicable people.

        Don’t hit your head when you run to the corner to cry.

      • Chaos4700
        January 4, 2011, 10:56 am

        So which country are you the fifth column for, hophmi?

    • Pamela Olson
      January 4, 2011, 12:31 pm

      I met an actor in Ramallah whose show satirizes the PA. The Arab world’s most beloved satirist, Naji al Ali, criticized Arab governments above all. As for regimes like the PA and the Mubarak regime, they likely wouldn’t exist anymore — much less crack down on satire — if the US didn’t keep propping them up against the democratic wishes of their people.

      • James North
        January 4, 2011, 10:11 pm

        Terrorism and Kebab, a huge comic film hit in Egypt in 1992, satirized both Egypt’s government and a hypocritical Islamic fundamentalist. link to en.wikipedia.org

    • fuster
      March 7, 2011, 4:56 pm

      hop, satire and disrespect for government is an old and well-established facet of life throughout the Middle East. you’re off-base here, possibly confused by the autocratic governments that stifle free speech, but off-base.

  10. hophmi
    January 4, 2011, 9:56 am

    What is telling is that this is a satire on Channel 2 watched and enjoyed by many Israelis, and proves that many Israelis are disillusioned with the government and critical of it. That means that the image promoted by the BDS movement that Israeli society is a monolith where people are not critical of their society and government is a total lie.

    • Chaos4700
      January 4, 2011, 10:21 am

      So, what, now you and yonira are going to spam the topic with distractions, like you did with the articles about that Palestinian woman who was murdered by the IDF? Please.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 10:30 am

        I didn’t say anything about the Palestinian woman and the IDF, so I don’t know what that’s about.

        I’ve obviously struck a nerve here by suggesting that not all Israelis are evil. Sorry for complicating your worldview.

      • Chaos4700
        January 4, 2011, 10:49 am

        And yet another straw man. Can’t produce adequate rhetoric from your own mouth (or typing fingers, as the case may be) so you have to put words in mine?

        so I don’t know what that’s about.

        That’s about the truest words you’ve had to give us so far.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 11:37 am

        don’t be disingenuous hophmi, the only conversation around here broaching on the subject of all Israelis are evil is you thru your stupid allegation. one you have not supported btw.

        That means that the image promoted by the BDS movement that Israeli society is a monolith where people are not critical of their society and government is a total lie.

        if this allegation were true (which we know it is not..it is a lie) you should be able to link to an example of this. instead you lie, and then build off that lie pretending your allegation struck a nerve for the truthieness factor. it’s the lie we don’t like.

        now cough it up. “the image promoted by the BDS movement”. let’s see the image of Israeli society is a monolith where people are not critical of their society and government

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 11:55 am

        Please, Annie. This is a fair summary of what people say here all the time.

        The entire basis for the BDS movement is that Israelis are not willing to criticize their government and society and so must be prodded from the outside. That necessitates the demonization of Israel on a regular basis.

        If it is the position of BDS that Israelis are critical of their government and society, then BDS is even more hypocritical, deceitful, and hateful than I thought.

      • marc b.
        January 4, 2011, 12:19 pm

        If it is the position of BDS that Israelis are critical of their government and society, then BDS is even more hypocritical, deceitful, and hateful than I thought.

        yet more faulty logic, if you could even call it that. there are many israelis that are critical of their government and society (such as the writers of the linked satire), no one here would deny that, it’s just that their criticism is not enough, just as there is a significant number of americans, perhaps even a majority, who are sharply critical of the continued prosecution of the ‘war on terror’, and yet it plods on with no end in sight.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 4:25 pm

        The entire basis for the BDS movement is that Israelis are not willing to criticize their government and society and so must be prodded from the outside. That

        you’re nuts. this site regularly reports israeli’s criticizing their governments and posts on it day in and day out. the entire basis for bds is to end the occupation. we do that by exposing israel’s crimes and we do it with lots of very conscious aware israelis who fight tooth and nail for justice. we’re not ignoring them in the least. we also do it by promoting boycott divestment and sanctions. big duh.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 5:39 pm

        “you’re nuts.”

        You’re coconuts.

        “the entire basis for bds is to end the occupation.”

        That’s disingenuous. BDS targets Israel proper as well as the occupation, and the vast majority of BDS adherents are one-staters. BDS is designed to end Israel as a Jewish state.

        “we do that by exposing israel’s crimes and we do it with lots of very conscious aware israelis who fight tooth and nail for justice. we’re not ignoring them in the least. ”

        No, you’re ignoring the majority of the Israelis who want an end to occupation but do not agree with your tactics or your program.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 6:13 pm

        That’s disingenuous. BDS targets Israel proper as well as the occupation, and the vast majority of BDS adherents are one-staters. BDS is designed to end Israel as a Jewish state.

        The occupation is Israeli policy, so it damn well should target Israel proper.

        And what evidence do you have that the vast majority of BDS adherents are one-staters? Witty could only come up with 3 names.

        No, you’re ignoring the majority of the Israelis who want an end to occupation but do not agree with your tactics or your program.

        No, you’re ignoring the majority of the Israelis who support the settlements.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 6:28 pm

        “And what evidence do you have that the vast majority of BDS adherents are one-staters? Witty could only come up with 3 names.”

        Omar Barghouti. Phil Weiss. Ali Abunimah. Mazen Qumsiyeh. You. Virtually everybody who is anybody in the BDS movement that I’ve heard of is a one-stater.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 7:39 pm

        Omar Barghouti. Phil Weiss. Ali Abunimah. Mazen Qumsiyeh. You. Virtually everybody who is anybody in the BDS movement that I’ve heard of is a one-stater.

        Stop lying Hophmi. The one state solution is the only one that’s viable any longer, thanks to the messianic policies of Israel. The 2 state solution is dead.

        I wish Karen Carpenter was still singing sings, but I am not going to wait around for her next album am I?

      • Potsherd2
        January 4, 2011, 9:19 pm

        IF the majority of Israelis want an end to the occupation and Israel is a democratic state, why is t here still an occupation?

    • Potsherd2
      January 4, 2011, 10:50 am

      You make these things up yourself, hophmi. The only lies are the lines from Hasbara Central that you keep repeating.

      Nobody thinks Israel is a monolith. It’s a fragmented, segregated society where people only break out of their apathy when the pervasive corruption affects themselves or their own sector. They see the satire, laugh, shrug, and do nothing to change the problem.

      I’ve seen political cartoons from Arab countries that put the lame Israeli product to shame.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 12:00 pm

        “Nobody thinks Israel is a monolith. It’s a fragmented, segregated society where people only break out of their apathy when the pervasive corruption affects themselves or their own sector. They see the satire, laugh, shrug, and do nothing to change the problem. ”

        Right, because the norm is that most people are radical revolutionaries. Most accounts here cast Israelis as racists or terrorists or Nazis, or whatever nonsense you people can up with. Don’t come here now and tell me how you’re subtle.

        “I’ve seen political cartoons from Arab countries that put the lame Israeli product to shame.”

        The vast majority of them satirizing everything but Arab society.

      • eljay
        January 4, 2011, 12:19 pm

        >> Most accounts here cast Israelis as racists or terrorists or Nazis, or whatever nonsense you people can up with.

        Not true. The only Israelis who are cast as racists or terrorists or Nazis are the ones who speak, act or advocate like racists, terrorists or Nazis.

      • Potsherd2
        January 4, 2011, 12:30 pm

        How’s that solipsism thing working out for you, hophmi?

        You might actually try reading what people are actually saying for a change.

      • Chu
        January 4, 2011, 1:01 pm

        Your ability to lob everyone into a group and call them radicals or haters, is reflective of cowardice and shows your inability to stand alone and weigh crucial facts in this complex discussion of Israel and Palestine.
        You’re seemingly incomplete, as you only argue for their defense and can’t seem to ever admit the things they have done over the decades have caused their own demise. We’re not the haters, and you’re not their lawyer.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 5:37 pm

        “Your ability to lob everyone into a group and call them radicals or haters, is reflective of cowardice and shows your inability to stand alone and weigh crucial facts in this complex discussion of Israel and Palestine.”

        Chu, of course, is the paragon of complex interlocution.

        “You’re seemingly incomplete, as you only argue for their defense and can’t seem to ever admit the things they have done over the decades have caused their own demise.”

        And you can’t admit that the Palestinians have contributed mightily to their own situation today.

    • Chu
      January 4, 2011, 11:17 am

      Thanks for the American hasbara perspective, mate.
      It’s all so clear to me now! This example of commentary
      is not really convincing for the people that frequent this
      website.

      But, you keep on fighting that golem. The war is never ending
      and you’re one of its heroic soldiers.

  11. eee
    January 4, 2011, 12:16 pm

    Thank you for proving that Israel is a self critical democracy.
    When I see an Arab television show laughing at themselves for their attitudes against Israel and Jews, I will be be a little more hopeful about peace.

    • Pamela Olson
      January 4, 2011, 12:34 pm

      It’s difficult to laugh at yourself when your family is crouching in fear in the middle of your home waiting to be bombed by Israeli airplanes. Or when you have to spend all your time looking for menial jobs because Israel destroyed your family farm and didn’t let you pass enough checkpoints to go to university. Just sayin’.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 12:39 pm

        Really, is that the situation in all Arab countries? What is your excuse for them?
        And by the way, why do you make so much excuses for the Palestinians but hold the 500,000 Jews of the 1948 Yishuv to a standard that no minority in danger of annihilation has been ever held to? Keep singling out Israel and it history, it only shows your real motives.

      • Chu
        January 4, 2011, 12:50 pm

        You should be able to admit that a colonial power is a destructive power. I know you always show enthusiasm for criticizing the US, and how we killed the native population of Indians. But somehow, it’s difficult for you to realize that
        Cast Lead is no different from the Trail of Tears.

        You could say it’s worse, because it has been recorded in history forever- actual video of the massacre, photos and all. All the evidence, but the excuses go on and on.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 1:02 pm

        You can keep calling my grandparents colonialists as much as you want. You can keep calling Gaza a massacre. You are just not connected to reality. Your comments always make me more thankful that finally Jews can defend themselves and not be impacted by the “moral judgments” of people like you.

      • Philip Weiss
        January 4, 2011, 1:20 pm

        but eee if these judgments have no impact on the reality of Israeli life, why do you even fight them? arent you wastin your time?

      • Chu
        January 4, 2011, 1:34 pm

        You can’t even answer my question. I am sure you’ve
        been asked this many times over and will continue to
        be asked about it:

        Why criticize the US about the massacres of Indians
        When Israel has committed the same massacres?

        We, are your great ally, and you have no problem criticizing the United States Government for their role in expelling the native population. But when Israel is called into question, you only offer your defense? You see my dilemma. It’s puzzling to know why this occurs.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 1:52 pm

        Phil,

        Fight? I am not fighting, I am saying that you can keep saying those things but they are so far fetched that they are not even a place to start dialog. You might as well demand unicorn rides.

      • eljay
        January 4, 2011, 1:58 pm

        >> Your comments always make me more thankful that finally Jews can defend themselves and not be impacted by the “moral judgments” of people like you.

        What about the comments made by other Jews (Israeli or otherwise)? These are members of your Jewish “collective”. Do their moral judgements not matter? If not, why? Are you somehow more moral than they are?

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 2:10 pm

        they are not even a place to start dialog

        yet that is what is taking place and what you are participating in. if you truly believe what you are asserting here why not address phil’s earlier question:

        arent you wastin your time?

        why not go to another cite then? why here? and in light of free and open society (yonira’s term) what do you think of the make believe spewing all over israeli TV? isn’t it sort of state brainwashing. did you read eleanor?

        Back in 1994 I thought I lived in one nation called Israel, with an Arab minority – no one had told me about the military occupation and I failed to see it

        what kind of free and open society raises people to adulthood unaware there’s a military occupation taking place on the other side of that wall. that’s not freedom, that’s freedom from responsibility.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 2:10 pm

        Eljay,

        “What about the comments made by other Jews (Israeli or otherwise)? These are members of your Jewish “collective”. Do their moral judgements not matter? If not, why? Are you somehow more moral than they are?”

        Any Jew whatever her opinion is welcome to become an Israeli citizen and vote. That is how they make their moral views matter. There is freedom or speech in Israel and anyone can publish whatever they want also. That is how a democracy works.

      • Pamela Olson
        January 4, 2011, 2:12 pm

        Well said, annie.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 2:19 pm

        Annie,

        Do you really call this dialog? We cannot even agree on the basic facts. For you Israel is just a colonialist state and a very bad idea. For me Israel is the only solution for the long term safety and spiritual and physical survival of the Jews and the reason I am alive today. It is the best thing that has happened to the Jewish community in thousands of years.

        Most Israelis are aware of the occupation and if they serve in the military as most do, they see it up close. The way to end the occupation is a two state solution arrived at by negotiation. It is the only peaceful way to do so. Sit down to negotiate. So what if the Palestinian position is weak? Do you want me to apologize that we are stronger and have only grown stronger the last 60 years? The Palestinians made mistakes and these were costly. There is no rewind button to history. Sit down and negotiate.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 2:21 pm

        why not just answer the question eee?

        arent you wastin your time?

      • Chu
        January 4, 2011, 2:21 pm

        unicorn rides? :D

        Yeah, this is guy I definitely remember…

        Critical of the US, but Israel can do no wrong.
        I guess I got my answer, in that there will be
        none! So much for the war of ideas, when a
        unicorn ride can sweep you off to
        never-never land. In a court of law, the jurors’
        heads would be askew listening to this debate.
        It’s more about changing the subject, than a
        cogent response.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 2:23 pm

        thanks for the whole thread pam, amazing video.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 2:34 pm

        “aren’t you wastin your time?”

        Maybe, why do you care?

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 2:39 pm

        eee, are you familiar w/the boy who cried wolf? here’s the thing, this negotiation lingo sounds real pretty but some people (like lots of us) are starting to perceive it as a delay tactic. a very looooong delay which affords those ‘crazy’ settlers plenty of opportunity to gobble up the state. an extremely wise woman once said

        if Israel wanted two states there would be two states by now

        so while it may be all warm and cozy to profess endless devotion to the negotiation scheme it has lost it’s luster and you’re loosing your audience. imagine waiting for the movie to begin for 4 hrs. how long to you sit in that theatre?

        or how long does and abused spouse hang around before she up and walks out? besides eee, if your priority was negotiations you wouldn’t be here. from the link:

        I am certainly not motivated by the desire to destroy anyone or any state, which brings me to my point. Zionists in our blogging world are going off the rails. Zionism and the policies of the state of Israel are becoming harder and harder to defend, therefore many are choosing not to defend them but to go on the attack..against me. Against Us. We are their problem. Oh I know, they acknowledge Israel has turned further and further to the right, they know Lieberman and his party now are the third largest party in Israel and want to transfer the Palestinians far far away. They know Shas has risen and the Minister of Housing (settlements people) is a Shas party member. They know the Radical Settlers are out burning mosques and settling fires to olive trees and the IOF are protecting them (and then some). They know the IOF has been infiltrated by Religious Fanatics which would make extracting the settlers from the territories virtually impossible without a civil war inside Israel and might require international intervention.

        Need I go on? They know. They know all this… and I’m their problem. Why?

        if negotiations were your primary interest you wouldn’t be here. you’d be over at those radical rightwing greater israel sites trying to convince those people their blockheaded-ness is threatening the state you love. but you aren’t. you’re here trying to gloss israel image while accusing us repeatedly of being the problem w/little jabs like: For you Israel is just a colonialist state and a very bad idea.

        heads up, israel is a colonialist state and the idea as described in the myth is not a ‘bad idea’ , the execution sucks, then and now which everyone involved in that execution/cleansing knew it sucked for the palestinians which is why they lied about it and made fancy lying movies to convince the world the myth was the reality. the cat is out of the bag and nothing will put it back. truth about israel sucks and that is YOUR problem, not mine. ethnic cleansing sucks. zionists should have taken their idea somewhere else besides a land that already had a population or included that population in the plan. palestinians are not evaporating, ever.

      • eljay
        January 4, 2011, 2:40 pm

        >> Any Jew whatever her opinion is welcome to become an Israeli citizen and vote. That is how they make their moral views matter. There is freedom or speech in Israel and anyone can publish whatever they want also. That is how a democracy works.

        That’s a great non-answer. I noted that, in your reply to Chu, you are happy to have Israel so that the “moral judgements” of – in your words – “people like you” do not matter.

        My question was: Do the moral judgements of Jews – in Israel or elsewhere – not matter to you? Given that they are members of your “collective” (and, therefore, presumably are not an offensive “people like you”), why would the moral judgements of other Jews – especially Israel Jews – not matter?

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 2:41 pm

        answering a question w/a question eh?

        not too impressive. why do i care? because both you and i know why you’re here, and it has nothing to do w/negotiations.

      • Chu
        January 4, 2011, 2:46 pm

        eee:”Israel is the only solution for the long term safety and spiritual and physical survival of the Jews and the reason I am alive today. It is the best thing that has happened to the Jewish community in thousands of years. ”

        -that may be true in your mind and many others. But why not settle on the 1967 borders? Surely all those Jews can survive inside this region? No more gas canisters, accidental deaths, money spent on hasbara. It may be healthier for the well being of all people.
        But, I think Israelis are stuck in the mode of defending themselves, cause it just feels so good inside. That, and not having total control of Jerusalem.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 2:48 pm

        Eljay,

        Let me try again. The moral judgments of Jews in Israel matter because they can influence the Israeli political process. And the way we resolve disagreements on moral judgments is by the democratic process. And the only thing that matters in the end is the collective will of the people of Israel as exemplified through their voting preferences or court decisions.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 2:49 pm

        Annie,

        Really, if you know, pray tell us why I am here.

      • Pamela Olson
        January 4, 2011, 2:52 pm

        “Your comments always make me more thankful that finally Jews can defend themselves and not be impacted by the “moral judgments” of people like you.”

        Yeah, don’t preach your moral judgments to me! The Norwegians killed all the salmon!

        Not Norwegian? No worries. I’m sure you’ve done something evil some time in your life, or someone who shares your nationality or race or religion once did something mean, so STFU!

        :P

        If I had nuclear weapons, would that also exempt me from the world’s moral judgment? I hope so, because my neighbor has a really nice house, and no nuclear weapons at all!

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 2:55 pm

        I think Israelis are stuck in the mode of defending themselves, cause it just feels so good inside

        no, they are stuck with defending themselves because their leaders are unwilling to change the ethnic cleansing agenda. instead of making changes their perfecting glossing their image. lots of lipstick for the pig. lipstick being talking pts, endless talking pts and justifications.

      • eljay
        January 4, 2011, 2:56 pm

        >> The moral judgments of Jews in Israel matter because they can influence the Israeli political process. And the way we resolve disagreements on moral judgments is by the democratic process. And the only thing that matters in the end is the collective will of the people of Israel as exemplified through their voting preferences or court decisions.

        So if the “collective will of the people of Israel” determined that more ethnic cleansing was necessary, or that Palestinian Israelis should be put to death, you’d be cool with that. Interesting. And very revealing.

        Thanks for confirming, once again, just what type of person you are.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 2:58 pm

        to defend israel

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 2:59 pm

        Annie,

        Negotiation is not a delay tactic. Only in your mind where the fault for not being able to get to results lie with Israel. Don’t you see your circular reasoning? Let’s sit down and negotiate without preconditions and let’s see what happens.

        And when you say that the one state solution is inevitable, you are saying the end of Israel is inevitable. It really does not matter to me if you want to destroy Israel or believe Israel will be destroyed anyway. It doesn’t make much difference. Of course you are the problem. You are giving Palestinians reasons not to negotiate and making everyone’s situation worse.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 3:03 pm

        Eljay,

        I see you have a serious problem with Jews having power. Get over it. Not only do we have power we intend to stand up for our interests and fight if necessary. Shocking I know, since where you come from a pogrom would have done the job and kept the Jews in their place. Now you have to try make Israelis look bad on blogs. What has the world come to?

        You are an anachronism. Learn to respect the collective will of the Jewish people.

      • Philip Weiss
        January 4, 2011, 3:05 pm

        eee i think you’re anachronistic because you have this idea that the collective will of the Jewish people will be a force for good, when in fact it’s diverse democratic societies that are the wave of the future.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 3:06 pm

        Annie,

        It is not Israelis that are stuck. It is the Palestinians that are stuck in la-la land for 62 years and cannot accept reality. There is only one option. It was true in 48, it was true in 67 in 91 and it is true now. A two state solution agreed upon by negotiation.

      • Chu
        January 4, 2011, 3:14 pm

        eee, just try and imagine that this criticism will help your community on the path to redemption. It’s constructive criticism.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 3:17 pm

        Phil,

        Yes, the wave of the future is an autocratic and nationalistic China and the Indian caste system, all signs of “diverse democratic societies”. And why exactly is Merkel saying that multiculturalism has failed in Germany and implying its failure in Europe? Is Russia the “diverse democratic society” you were talking about? Perhaps those in the Arab world?

        But let’s leave aside your US centric view of the future. It really does not matter if you think the collective will of the Jewish people is a force for good or not. What matters is that it is a force that has to be reckoned with, and that is exactly what Israel has achieved and why the Jews needed a state. The majority of the Jews will decide their future, good or bad, without someone from the outside deciding for them. Just as the Americans or Hungarians or Germans do. And anyone that does not understand this is an anachronism.

      • eljay
        January 4, 2011, 3:17 pm

        >> I see you have a serious problem with Jews having power. …

        Really? Show me where I have ever stated that I have a problem with “Jews having power”.

        >> You are an anachronism.

        That’s funny, coming from a guy who speaks favourably of colonialism and ethnic cleansing.

        >> Learn to respect the collective will of the Jewish people.

        I do not respect immoral and illegal behaviour, no matter whose “collective will” is behind it. The fact that you do is disturbing but, since you’re a Zio-supremacist, it’s not surprising.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 3:20 pm

        And when you say that the one state solution is inevitable, you are saying the end of Israel is inevitable. It really does not matter to me if you want to destroy Israel or believe Israel will be destroyed anyway. It doesn’t make much difference. Of course you are the problem.

        thanks for demonstrating my point, you think i am your problem. that is why you are here. you have all the places on the internet to go (to advance your goal of negotiations which you allege is the only way for 2 states) and you think arguing w/us on this site right here is the numero uno place to make that happen. riggggght. I am your problem. not israel’s actions. not the lies on the tele in israel, not the death of innocent people, not the occupation, none of that. not the settlers, not netanyahu, not lieberman, no, it’s us.

        me, sitting here w/my little keyboard. the truth will bring israel down and you know it. what will turn this around is israel changing but israel won’t do that so the best thing you got going for you is smearing the truthtellers huh eee. and that’s about all you got going for you see as you’re unwilling to actually take on israel settler freaks and their rightwing freaks and their nationalist zionist religious freaks etc etc etc etc . you think we’re easier. YOU”RE SO WRONG.
        you’re not just wasting your time, you’re actually making our job much easier. after all it’s not every day you reveal yourself so stunningly

        Exactly. Ethnic cleansing as a bad that was needed to be done to create a greater good which is the country of Israel. Just as giving a cancer patient chemotherapy is bad but required for the greater good of keeping the patient alive. Unfortunately, there was no other option.

        phew. one day it’s going to dawn on the hasbarists no news is better than bad news.

        you make our job so much easier.

      • MRW
        January 4, 2011, 3:21 pm

        annie,

        Smart words at January 4, 2011 at 2:39 pm. (and so was your Trap piece.)

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 3:33 pm

        And when you say that the one state solution is inevitable, you are saying the end of Israel is inevitable

        no, you are saying that. i am saying israel won’t negotiate 2 states. do not give me your ‘pre condition lingo’. israel is unwilling to stop its expansion agenda. so wtf is the point of negotiation when israel insists on making the situation worse daily?

        we’re not stupid.

        so you tell me what the alternative to no 2 states? either one state or genocide or what? transfer? there’s no other option outside of 2 states or one state and israel is obviously more interested in expansion than sacrificing their expansion for 2 states. israel rolls the dice every day on their future and you’re blaming me. pff

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 3:34 pm

        thanks mrw, yeah that was me.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 3:34 pm

        giving Palestinians reasons not to negotiate

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 3:36 pm

        Annie,

        I know it is hard for you to accept it but you are the problem. Israel’s actions are the problem? If today we were in the pre-67 borders you would be advocating for the right of return and supporting the end of Israel. You would always find an excuse to be anti-Israel no matter the situation. The settlements are just excuses. It is your mindset that is the problem.

        That you cannot accept the fact that the ethnic cleansing of some Palestinians was justified in order to create a stable Jewish state just proves this. You are not pro-peace, you are anti-Israel.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 3:42 pm

        The majority of the Jews will decide their future, good or bad, without someone from the outside deciding for them.

        life doesn’t work like that eee. not when the majority of people choose war crimes and violating international law and apartheid. the party can’t go on forever. you know that, i know hat, and israel knows that too. that is exactly why they formed ‘the israel action network’. because what the world thinks matters. in fact they called the delegitimization a ‘threat’.

        and if truth were not a threat you wouldn’t be here. the implication of threat is that ..no..it won’t be just israel deciding.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 3:44 pm

        Eljay,

        By using a term like “Zio-supremacist” you prove that you have a serious problem with Jews having power. Its quite simple, for you, a Jewish collective that has the power to act against your will or beliefs (horror of horrors) is “Zio-supremacist”. Who are you to decide for us what is moral or not? Your mentality is so 19th century.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 3:50 pm

        Annie,

        There will only be a solution when you understand that:
        The majority of the Jews will decide their future, good or bad, without someone from the outside deciding for them.

        That is the way it works. Learn to live with it. That is what a Jewish state means. You can call what Israel does “war crimes” and “apartheid” till kingdom come, but it is not you who decides. You have to reckon with the will of the Jewish people. How sad. Things were really simpler before there was a Jewish state. Those “uppity” people could be handled so much more easily.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 3:50 pm

        If today we were in the pre-67 borders you would be advocating for the right of return and supporting the end of Israel. You would always find an excuse to be anti-Israel no matter the situation.

        ah, this is an amusing tactic. you don’t want to fight me the way i am, you want to reinvent me. okkkay.

        cute. that might be a little more convincing if you could back that up ..but you have absolutely no evidence because….hold your breath…it’s not true.

        I know it is hard for you to accept it but you are the problem.

        well, exposing truth is generally dangerous so in this regard i will have to agree w/you. all the money in the world won’t solve this problem for israel. no amount of weapons or anything. this truth thing..not good for israel.

        so yes, i am most definitely your problem and apparently the way you’re combating that is making up more lies? about me?

        not to effective, try coming up w/another battle plan there maestro. like uh…changing israel’s actions!

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 3:53 pm

        That is the way it works. Learn to live with it.

        so wtf eee, if it all comes down to what jews think why aren’t you over on some israeli site impacting change from within?

        you’re chomping on the leftie bloggers

        lolololololol

        whateva floats yer boat dude.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 3:54 pm

        Annie,

        When you say:
        no, you are saying that. i am saying israel won’t negotiate 2 states.

        What you are actually saying is that Israel will not agree to the solution you want it to agree. How inconvenient to have Jews that stand up for what they believe and cannot be threatened or cowered into submission. Sorry, things have changed. Learn to live with it.

      • kapok
        January 4, 2011, 3:56 pm

        So, the murderers held a vote before murdering. That’s OK then.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 3:59 pm

        eee, did it ever occur to you that instead of focusing on this “you have a serious problem with Jews having power” you might try listening to yourself:

        The majority of the Jews will decide their future, good or bad, without someone from the outside deciding for them.

        the problem w/this little scenario is that ‘newflash‘ no man is an island. jews are not just deciding ‘their future’ right now they are also ‘deciding the present ‘ of millions of people against their will. so like yeah people have a problem w/that little eeensy weensy issue. i don’t know where you can get off thinking jews have that kind of power but apparently you do. excuse me for not bowing down to it but it’s just not going to fly over the long haul.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 4:04 pm

        What you are actually saying is that Israel will not agree to the solution you want it to agree.

        copy/paste is your friend. putting words in my mouth isn’t.

        let’s just say i’m definitely not alone believing israel is unwilling, in fact news reports recently indicated the WH feels the same way. people aren’t buying it anymore i seriously doubt argument you are making against me here (that i have ulterior motives) won’t really work for the global community. but the little satire up there is very good for this your theory when the kids all say ‘anti semitism’, it basically flings all responsibility off israel.

        cute no cigar.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 4:08 pm

        Annie,

        The Jews are in conflict with the Palestinians. We are not deciding their future. They could have declared a state in the West Bank and Gaza between 48 and 67, but they never did because they wanted all of Israel. Since then they could not bring themselves to give up the right of return in the interests of peace. They could have decided not to fire rockets at Israel after Israel left Gaza. Don’t lay the problem only at Israel’s feet. The Palestinians and you apparently believe that you can solve the problems by violence or international pressure. That will only make the Palestinian situation worse. Let’s negotiate and leave the excuses that have brought the Palestinians nothing on the side.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 4:10 pm

        There is only one option. It was true in 48, it was true in 67 in 91 and it is true now. A two state solution agreed upon by negotiation.

        that is simply not true. if the global community had no power israel wouldn’t be doing its ‘outreach’. that fact that it very much is one can only come to the conclusion we matter.

      • Potsherd2
        January 4, 2011, 4:14 pm

        eee, it’s too bad then, isn’t it, that Israel rejected this only solution for 50 years and imprisoned anyone who tried to work towards it, until the settlement project made it impossible to achieve.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 4:15 pm

        Annie,

        So now you are being coy about what “unwilling” means. To you it means that Israel will not accept your parameters for peace. That is not “unwilling to make peace”. It is “unwilling to make peace under Annie’s terms”. Let me ask you a simple question: Do you accept the Clinton parameters and would you urge the Palestinians to accept them?

      • Potsherd2
        January 4, 2011, 4:16 pm

        eee, read a history book. It was Israel that prevented the Palestinians from having a state, along with its collaborators in Jordan and Egypt. Israel has indeed decided the Palestinians’ future, decided to blight it forever.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 4:17 pm

        Don’t lay the problem only at Israel’s feet. The Palestinians and you apparently believe that you can solve the problems by violence or international pressure.

        violence? is that why israel kills and imprisons non violent protesters?

        nice try. the good ol hasbara days of suicide bombers is behind us. made your job so much easier back then tho didn’t it. international pressure’s a bitch and growing daily.

        ok, i’m gonna go check out some other threads. see ya round.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 4:18 pm

        Annie,

        I think eee would have been that kid in the video that insists Israel has a PR problem.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 4:20 pm

        Sorry, it looks like my last post didn’t work.

        ——————

        Let’s sit down and negotiate without preconditions and let’s see what happens.

        Yes, let’s discuss how we are going to divide the pizza while I start eating it, because asking me not to is a precondition.

        And when you say that the one state solution is inevitable, you are saying the end of Israel is inevitable.

        So you’re blaming Annie for the fact that a one state outcome is inevitable? Yes eee,Annie’s the problem because she won’t play along with your shared and agree to lie to herself.

        Don’t tale responsibility for stealing someone else’s land, or expelling their population, or massacring them, or denying them their humanity, blame Annie.

        And when Israel is a single state, with an Arab majority, and you’re living safely in the US, or Canada or Europe, you can keep blaming Annie, because she started this mess by giving Palestinians reasons not to negotiate.

      • eee
        January 4, 2011, 4:22 pm

        “that is simply not true. if the global community had no power israel wouldn’t be doing its ‘outreach’. that fact that it very much is one can only come to the conclusion we matter.”

        The power of the international community is very limited. Israel has always tried to maintain good relations and explain its positions around the world. Good relations lead to good business. But to think that the international community can force Israel to act against its security interests is delusional especially after the inability of UN forces to stop the arming of Hezbollah. There is only one peaceful solution, a two state solution agreed upon by negotiation.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 4:34 pm

        Don’t lay the problem only at Israel’s feet. The Palestinians and you apparently believe that you can solve the problems by violence or international pressure.

        Wasn’t the Israeli problem solved with violence eee? You know, the one you claimed was necessary to produce an outcome for good?

         the good ol hasbara days of suicide bombers is behind us. made your job so much easier back then tho didn’t it. international pressure’s a bitch and growing daily.

        The poor Hasbarats are lost out at sea without the suicide attacks to blame. Some if them even sound nostalgic for the good ol’ days, when suicide attacks provided a bottomless well if excuses for Israel’s crimes.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 4:39 pm

        They could have declared a state in the West Bank and Gaza between 48 and 67, but they never did because they wanted all of Israel.

        False. No state can declare independence while occupied.

         Since then they could not bring themselves to give up the right of return in the interests of peace.

        Would you give up your right of return if your land was taken from you eee?

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 4:45 pm

        tony karon time mag featuring joseph dana no less. i highly recommend

        (re: The poor Hasbarats are lost out at sea

        The significance of the protest movement could continue to grow amid the impasse in the U.S.-led peace process — particularly as Palestinian leaders take issues like Israel’s continued building of settlements outside its 1967 borders to the U.N. Security Council, where such activity is deemed illegal. Israel won overwhelming Western sympathy when it was the target of a wave of suicide terrorism attacks a decade ago, but unarmed Palestinian protests against the occupation are shifting the sympathies of Western public opinion increasingly impatient with Israel over issues like settlements.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 5:15 pm

        But to think that the international community can force Israel to act against its security interests is delusional especially after the inability of UN forces to stop the arming of Hezbollah

        The occupation and settlements have nothing to do with security. They serve colonial ambitions.

        That occupation is possible because of international support and tolerance, so both can be ended simply by withholding that support. For example, the US need only enforce existing laws against international financing of settlements, and that would put and and to them. The US would only gave to admit that Israel has nukes, and that would put an end to aid, arms and loan guarantees to Israel.

        Overnight, Israel would be on it’s knees.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 5:19 pm

        Do you accept the Clinton parameters and would you urge the Palestinians to accept them?

        They have accepted them. Ararat accepted them at Taba. Israel have violated them. That’s what Israel calls negotiation.

        See how it works?

      • eljay
        January 4, 2011, 5:27 pm

        >> Eljay,
        >> By using a term like “Zio-supremacist” you prove that you have a serious problem with Jews having power. … Your mentality is so 19th century.

        eee, if I respected you enough to take you seriously, I’d be offended by what you have to say. As it is, you are a joke, a caricature, and your comment is nothing more than a woefully pathetic justification for your slander against me.

        I have no problem with Jews or anyone else having power. I do, however, have a problem with Jews or anyone else abusing power, and with supremacists supporting the right of their “collective” to do so. If that’s “19th century”, I sincerely hope you find your way back to that era of morality and justice.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 5:33 pm

        “The occupation and settlements have nothing to do with security. They serve colonial ambitions.”

        Then why hasn’t Israel annexed the West Bank? That would seem to be the most obvious colonial step.

        “That occupation is possible because of international support and tolerance, so both can be ended simply by withholding that support.”

        Really? You really think it’s about international support?

        “For example, the US need only enforce existing laws against international financing of settlements, and that would put and and to them.”

        You really think the settlements are all about US support? Some of these people live in trailers, Shingle. They aren’t all financed by American money.

        “The US would only gave to admit that Israel has nukes, and that would put an end to aid, arms and loan guarantees to Israel.”

        You must be very misinformed if you really believe Israel needs US money. It is perfectly self-sufficient. It’s a first world economy.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 6:02 pm

        Then why hasn’t Israel annexed the West Bank? That would seem to be the most obvious colonial step.

        Because under international law, that would mean having to offer all the Palestinian in the West Bank Israeli citizenship.

        Really? You really think it’s about international support?

        No I said it was made possible by it. Without the US to run interference at the UN and turn a blind eye to the illegal funding of settlements, they would not be possible.

        Some of these people live in trailers, Shingle. They aren’t all financed by American money.

        And a good deal live in massive settlements which are serviced by roads, which are protected by the apartheid wall.

        All of that costs money Hophmi. Just because Israel doesn’t pay for it doesn’t make it free.

        You must be very misinformed if you really believe Israel needs US money. It is perfectly self-sufficient. It’s a first world economy.

        Yes, Israel needs US money, US aid, US arms, US loan guarantees, US vetos at the UN and US companies to invest in Israel. The entire Israeli economy is a false one propped up by the US.

        If it had a first world economy, it would be able to afford to pay for it’s own weapons and not need aid or loan guarantees.

      • hophmi
        January 4, 2011, 6:23 pm

        “Because under international law, that would mean having to offer all the Palestinian in the West Bank Israeli citizenship.”

        So now you claim international law does matter to Israel? Which is it? If they’re an apartheid state, why not annex the West Bank and not offer citizenship to the Palestinians?

        “No I said it was made possible by it. Without the US to run interference at the UN and turn a blind eye to the illegal funding of settlements, they would not be possible.”

        I think that’s naive.

        “And a good deal live in massive settlements which are serviced by roads, which are protected by the apartheid wall.

        All of that costs money Hophmi. Just because Israel doesn’t pay for it doesn’t make it free.”

        Israel pays for most of it.

        “Yes, Israel needs US money, US aid, US arms, US loan guarantees, US vetos at the UN and US companies to invest in Israel. The entire Israeli economy is a false one propped up by the US.”

        That’s nonsense. You have fanciful ideas about economics and US economic support of Israel. Companies all over the world invest in Israel. The reason is because Israel is a stable first-world democracy that is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world.

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 7:21 pm

        So now you claim international law does matter to Israel? Which is it?

        Whether it matters to Israel or not is irrelevant. Either way, Israel is no better off annexing the territory, because it achieves no benefit.

        If they’re an apartheid state, why not annex the West Bank and not offer citizenship to the Palestinians?

        Like I said, there is no advantage to doing so. By maintaining the status quo, Israeli propagandists like you can claim that Israel is a democracy. By becoming an official apartheid state, Israel and the US can no longer claim to share common values.

        Israel pays for most of it.

        With the money they are given.

        Companies all over the world invest in Israel.

        The biggest investor by far is the US.

        The reason is because Israel is a stable first-world democracy that is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world.

        Hence Israel cannot afford to officially become a an apartheid state.

        Secondly, the technology is owned by multinationals. A development that takes place in a Microsoft Development Center or Intel factory is not Israeli, it is owned by those companies.

        And most of the technology that Israel boasts about is stolen anyway.

      • Potsherd2
        January 4, 2011, 9:21 pm

        eee, “facts” are not what you think they are. Whether Israel is a “very bad idea” is not a matter of fact. It’s a judgment.

      • SeaEtch
        January 4, 2011, 11:33 pm

        yes. Thanks to the “an extremely wise woman ”

        You’re a great fighter, wise woman! clean, principled, tough, real.

      • SeaEtch
        January 4, 2011, 11:39 pm

        sorry about that, still new, learning codes; my comment “Yes…” was in reply to “MRW January 4, 2011 at 3:21 pm

        annie,

        Smart words at January 4, 2011 at 2:39 pm. (and so was your Trap piece.)

  12. Pamela Olson
    January 4, 2011, 2:15 pm

    Those kids really are adorable. It breaks my heart to think they might actually be taught this nonsense and be turned into killers and occupiers by the time they’re in their late teens. Perhaps taking part in this satire (I hope someone told them it was satire!) will be a small step on the road to retaining their ability to think independently.

    But the kid who kept saying, “Our problem is PR [hasbara]” seemed really intense. I hope he’s just an amazing actor!

    • MRW
      January 4, 2011, 3:25 pm

      Our problem is PR

      When you restore the original 1917 word for PR, “propaganda” — the word Bernays had to alter — that statement shows how out of touch Israel is with 21st C reality.

    • yonira
      January 4, 2011, 6:58 pm

      These kids, not so much (well maybe under the fake suicide vests and plastic AKs)

      link to wnd.com

      link to youtube.com

      • Shingo
        January 4, 2011, 8:02 pm

        Same with these kids,

        Obviously this is what they are become once they leave pre school.

        link to google.com.au

  13. Tuyzentfloot
    January 4, 2011, 2:41 pm

    The trick in getting away with satire is: don’t tell them it’s satire.

  14. MHughes976
    January 4, 2011, 4:25 pm

    The consistently sneering tone is insufferable, isn’t it? lrb mentions the response of just ignoring certain comments. It’s a technique I haven’t quite picked up.

    • MHughes976
      January 4, 2011, 4:48 pm

      This remark was meant to slot in after marc b’s below, but somehow it jumped.

      • annie
        January 4, 2011, 5:01 pm

        it appears the original offending post was deleted mhughes. my recollection is the conversation was taking place upthread. now it appears the comments attached to it were all dumped down thread. perhaps it’s a formatting issue or something. i’m not a computer person so i have no idea.

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