‘Foreign Policy’ seeks ‘rebuttal’ of Oren tripe from Satloff, Benn, Goldberg and oh, Walt

on 56 Comments

This is discouraging. I thought we were having a little perestroika in these parts. But no, Foreign Policy yesterday ran a piece of pure propaganda by Israeli ambassador Michael Oren saying that the U.S. and Zionists have had utterly-overlapping interests since the days of George Washington and forever after, and who did it ask to respond in “rebuttal”? Aluf Benn of Haaretz, Robert Satloff of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (a lobby group), and Jeffrey Goldberg of the Iranian frenzy patrol. I can’t motivate myself to read the Goldberg and the Satloff, but how’s this for a rebuttal, from Benn:

Israel’s ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, asserts rightly that in view of the current political upheaval, America has no better or more trustworthy friend in the Middle East than Israel.

Oh and Steve Walt. Who cleans the floor with Oren in a long piece that combines realism with a fullthroated human-rights argument. Excerpt:

Oren would prefer that the United States continue backing Israel to the hilt no matter what it does. His first line of argument is the odd suggestion that Americans have been Zionists ever since the Founding Fathers (i.e., even before modern Zionism existed). Some early U.S. leaders did have biblically inspired notions about “returning Jews to the Holy Land,” but that fact tells us nothing about the proper relationship between the United States and Israel today. America’s Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism, for example, so one might just as easily argue that they would oppose Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and support the Palestinians’ efforts to secure their own independence. George Washington also warned Americans to avoid “passionate attachments” to any foreign nations, in good part because he believed it would distort U.S. domestic politics and provide avenues for foreign influence. Thus, Oren’s highly selective reading of past U.S. history offers little grounds for unconditional support today.

Oren’s second line of argument is the familiar claim that the United States and Israel share identical “democratic values.” Yet this argument cannot explain why the United States gives Israel so much support, and gives it unconditionally. After all, there are many democracies in the world, but none has a special relationship with the United States like Israel does.

It is true that both states are formally democratic, but there are also fundamental differences between the two countries. The United States is a liberal democracy, where people of any race, religion, or ethnicity are supposed to enjoy equal rights. Israel, by contrast, was explicitly founded as a Jewish state, and non-Jews in Israel are second-class citizens both de jure and de facto. To take but one example, Palestinians who marry Israeli Jews are not permitted to become citizens of Israel themselves. This may make sense given Israel’s self-definition, but it is wholly at odds with deep-rooted American values.

Just as importantly, Israel’s democratic status is undermined by its imposition of a legal, administrative, and military regime in the occupied territories that denies the Palestinians there basic human rights, as well as by its prolonged, government-backed effort to colonize these conquered lands with Jewish settlers.

In the end, it is hard not to see Oren’s article as a sign of desperation. A more open discourse about Israel is beginning to emerge in the United States, and that will gradually make it harder for American politicians to continue their craven subservience to the lobby. Furthermore, younger American Jews are less enchanted with an Israel that is drifting steadily rightward and whose political system is increasingly dysfunctional and ridden with scandal. Autocracies like Hosni Mubarak’s regime in Egypt actively colluded with Israel, but future Arab leaders are likely to be more responsive to popular sentiment and less tolerant of Israel’s brutal suppression of Palestinian rights. If the United States wants these countries’ policies to be congenial to its core interests, it will have to make its own policies more congenial to Arab peoples, not just their rulers.

56 Responses

  1. annie
    April 26, 2011, 11:40 am

    ‘rebuttal’ of Oren tripe from Satloff, Benn, Goldberg

    they could all sing in perfect harmony!

  2. pabelmont
    April 26, 2011, 12:43 pm

    Sometimes, “political correctness” (meaning cowardly incorrectness in the face of power, pressure, conformity, received opinion) finds expression, as here, in kowtowing to the powers-that-be (AIPAC, etc.) and then (if one is brave enough) asserting a bit of good sense by addition of some contrast. In order to feel safe with the contrast of WALT, F/P ran “contrast” by Satloff, Benn, Goldberg.

    Here’s a question: would we, would FR/P’s readers, be better off if neither Oren nor Walt had been published? OK, OK, we’d all be better off if ONLY WALT had been published — but this is not yet in the cards.

    Judges have often said that when they receive motion papers from lawyers — petitioner’s argument, respondent’s counter-argument, and petitioner’s rebuttal — they start reading with the third, the petitioner’s rebuttal. That’s where the judge learns what the issues are.

    Here there was only petitioner, 4 times, and one counter-argument. THAT IS WHAT WALT GAVE. Sensible people would SKIP Oren, skip the others, and read Walt.

  3. Pamela Olson
    April 26, 2011, 1:02 pm

    It’s not even fun rebutting most Zionists. It’s like arguing with a spoiled four-year-old. Poor Walt, his intellect could be used in so many better ways if Zios weren’t wasting everyone’s time.

    • Chaos4700
      April 26, 2011, 1:09 pm

      Yeah. Commenting on Mondoweiss has felt more and more like working in a day care for spoiled brats who hit, bite, steal from the cookie jar and lie at every opportunity.

      • Mooser
        April 26, 2011, 1:43 pm

        Got to admit, Chaos, that “Micheal W”s question to you “Why are you so hostile” was just a bit over the top.
        I mean, what on earth could Israel and Zionism have ever done which might make a person sort of hostile. Why, I can’t think of a single thing!
        And if I did, of course, it would just be anti-Semitism.

      • Michael W.
        April 26, 2011, 1:56 pm

        Mooser, thank you for the criticism. I’m still working on my act. I got to improve my timing, and a lot of other things too. Got any more pointers?

      • Chaos4700
        April 26, 2011, 2:01 pm

        Actually, I think technically being Jewish, you’re immune from being an anti-Semite. Only other Semitic people and people who are friends with them qualify for that. But they may demand your Jewish ID card (is it blue? Can’t be orange) to be confiscated. I mean, how many times did yonira and eee kindly say, “Papers, please?” to you?

      • Mooser
        April 26, 2011, 7:21 pm

        “Got any more pointers?”

        Sure, always glad to help! Drop the Zionism, it just saps your sense of humor, and in addition it makes you a shitty person.
        Now I realise your nearly inhuman tiresomeness, almost breathtaking pretension combined with your addiction to vintage whines and aversion to the truth won’t be overcome in a day, but you need to get on it right away.
        Let me know if I can be of any further help. Oh, and try boiling your head.

      • MHughes976
        April 26, 2011, 3:37 pm

        Would they go away if they were ignored, do you think?

      • Mooser
        April 26, 2011, 7:25 pm

        “Would they go away if they were ignored, do you think?”

        I wonder how much cut-n-paste Hasbara spam, hate messages and threats get rejected by moderation, to leave us with the pick of the litter? I would think many times more than what does appear.

  4. Jim Haygood
    April 26, 2011, 1:07 pm

    Walt: ‘The United States is a liberal democracy, where people of any race, religion, or ethnicity are supposed to enjoy equal rights. Israel, by contrast, was explicitly founded as a Jewish state, and non-Jews in Israel are second-class citizens both de jure and de facto.’

    The Lobby’s ‘Israel shares US democratic values’ riff is an absurd canard, designed to cover up the painfully obvious fact that Israel is an ethnic supremacist society which resembles the Jim Crow South far more than the post-civil rights era United States.

    Ambassador Oren should take a lesson from President Nixon: often it’s not the crime, but rather the cover-up which ends up costing you. The world’s last apartheid state isn’t fooling anyone, as it wraps itself in Uncle Sam’s skirt.

    • tokyobk
      April 26, 2011, 1:41 pm

      Criticize Israel and Zionism in the name of human rights, please. BUt “last Apartheid State” ? On what planet?

      • MRW
        April 26, 2011, 3:08 pm

        Name the others, and remember the term refers to “a system of legal racial segregation.”

      • Hostage
        April 26, 2011, 6:49 pm

        The material elements are an institutionalized regime of inhumane acts committed by one group against another based upon race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin. The policies and practices can include legislation, but that is not a necessary element.

        There are a number of countries which practice discrimination against “peasant” or “native” communities. The hukou system in China and the caste discrimination against India’s “Untouchables” are examples that have been brought to the attention of human rights treaty bodies.

        The governments of western states have an abysmal record of selling or leasing mining, timber, and other rights that rightfully belong to indigenous groups without their consent. The US and UK are currently using municipal and international law to maintain an illegal situation they created when they conspired to deport the Chagos Islanders from Diego Garcia in order to construct the US military installations there. The Islanders are being legally excluded from the own country because of their ethnicity.

      • justicewillprevail
        April 26, 2011, 5:17 pm

        On this planet.

  5. Justice Please
    April 26, 2011, 1:08 pm

    Kudos to Walt.

    Adding to his list of arguments, what “ultimate ally” would murder and maim so many Americans without apologizing and prosecuting the perpetrators? When was the last time that modern allies like Germany, Japan or South Korea did to Americans what Israel did and continues to do to the USS Liberty, Rachel Corrie, Furkan Doga, Tristan Anderson, Emily Hechonowicz?

    At least Walt mentions the extremely harmful spying operations Israel conducts against the US.

  6. Michael W.
    April 26, 2011, 1:12 pm

    “America’s Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism”

    How did the US turn from 13 colonies to 50 states then?

    • Chaos4700
      April 26, 2011, 1:30 pm

      Monroe, for starters. You know you’re not going to enamor yourself to American Jews by taking potshots at our collective American history.

      • Michael W.
        April 26, 2011, 1:57 pm

        Chaos, you are starting to sound like a Zionist.

      • Chaos4700
        April 26, 2011, 5:35 pm

        Really? If I start setting fire to hospitals, someone shoot me please.

      • eee
        April 26, 2011, 2:26 pm

        But you are going to enamor yourself to American Jews by taking potshots at the Jewish state and at Zionism.

        Michael W. raises a great point. Walt is just plain wrong. The founding fathers of the US were colonialists and slave owners.

      • Shingo
        April 26, 2011, 5:13 pm

        Walt is just plain wrong. The founding fathers of the US were colonialists and slave owners.

        In which case, maybe Oren is right after all.

      • justicewillprevail
        April 26, 2011, 5:19 pm

        Great, so that justifies Israel’s modern version of colonialism and Jie Crow racism.

      • Michael W.
        April 26, 2011, 5:29 pm

        justice, you are making it too much about the past. Just because things weren’t so rosy back then, doesn’t mean we can’t make it rosy today. But we shouldn’t paint the past as something it wasn’t like Walt just did.

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 26, 2011, 5:43 pm

        “Michael W. raises a great point. Walt is just plain wrong. The founding fathers of the US were colonialists and slave owners.”

        I think that Michael W. and Walt are both only somewhat right. It is absolultely true that the founding fathers were, by and large, against colonialism, or, more precisely, opposed to European colonialism, especially in the New World. In that respect, Walt is right, and it is plausable that they would reject the Zionist project in the 19-21 centuries of moving millions of European Jews into Palestine as no different than the European colonialism of their day.

        Some of the founders were, however, expansionists, seeking lebensraum or, as the Zios call it, “natural growth.” They wished to take over the Ohio country and into Louisiana after the Purchase. However, they did not see this settler colonialism as colonialism and no less evil than any other form of imperialism. (The Zios commit the same sin today.) In that respect, Walt was wrong. They were colonialists in that respect.

        But one thing which Walt fails to consider is whether they would have committed the same sins as the 19th and 20th C. European, such as Balfour and Lloyd George who supported the crimes agaisnt the Palestinians out of a misdirect sense of religious piety. Even if they were opposed to colonialism as a political matter, they may have had misguided religious beliefs.

      • Hostage
        April 27, 2011, 3:04 am

        The founding fathers of the US were colonialists and slave owners.

        You might want to brush up on the “Lives of the signers to the Declaration of independence”, By Charles Augustus Goodrich

        In the meantime, any member of the “birther movement” can tell you that the overwhelming majority of the founding fathers of the United States and all of its Presidents were born in the US.

      • MHughes976
        April 26, 2011, 3:51 pm

        AC Grayling of Birkbeck College London has a book called ‘Towards the Light’ (2007) which is about progress in matters of human rights. He takes the view that the American revolutionary theories made great progress in this respect and from his account you would get no idea of proto-Zio influence. Though I must admit that I’d take a more critical view.

    • Mooser
      April 26, 2011, 1:50 pm

      “America’s Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism”
      How did the US turn from 13 colonies to 50 states then? “Micheal W”

      Hey Micheal, the government of Nazi Germany killed millions of people, and the Russian government was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. So why pick on us Americans? If you need excuses for atrocities, you can find much, much better examples than America’s fitful and disorganised manifest Destiny expansion.

      But I do take your point, which is made constantly here by the Ziocaine-addled: Any atrocity or crime can be used as an excuse for Israel and Zionism, and Israel has the right to any atrocity which has ever been historically recorded, and saying that they don’t is anti-Semitic. That’s it, Zionists, reach for the stars, the highest ideals!

      • Michael W.
        April 26, 2011, 4:35 pm

        Mooser, I don’t know who Micheal is, but I think you were so close to what I said. My point was that Walt believes in a myth, a national narrative, that highlights the best of what he thinks America is and was. He is like the typical Zionist before Benny Morris.

        BTW, I don’t think the fact that American atrocities make Zionist atrocities look like puppy love should excuse Zionist atrocities today.

    • marc b.
      April 26, 2011, 2:03 pm

      brilliant retort, MW. americans killed indians, so israel is now entitled to its own little genocidal project. ignoramus.

      • Shingo
        April 26, 2011, 5:28 pm

        brilliant retort, MW. americans killed indians, so israel is now entitled to its own little genocidal project.

        Yes, poor Israel missed out on the 19th century and now wants to have it’s own stab at it.

    • Keith
      April 26, 2011, 6:26 pm

      MICHAEL W- “America’s Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism”

      “How did the US turn from 13 colonies to 50 states then?”

      If you insert the word “British” in front of colonialism the answer will be abundantly clear. I suspect that you already knew that.

      • Hostage
        April 27, 2011, 3:28 am

        MICHAEL W- “America’s Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism”

        They were mostly native-born and favored complete independence. They didn’t care for French, Spanish, or British colonialism. I’m fairly certain that Professor Walt is referring to “La doctrina americana del Uti possidetis de 1810” and the related “Monroe Doctrine”. Those have subsequently been incorporated in the public international law of the Americas and Europe. See for example Article 21 of “The Covenant of the League of Nations”

      • Michael W.
        April 27, 2011, 4:49 am

        At what point did the British colonies turn into native towns and cities?

      • Hostage
        April 27, 2011, 9:15 am

        Michael, Hampton Virginia was established in 1610. New Amsterdam was established a few years later in 1624. So, the country had towns and cities that had existed continuously for about 164 years in 1774 when the First Continental Congress was convened, or 166 years when the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union were adopted.

        The settlements in the Etzion Bloc and the Golan Heights have existed continuously for about 43 years.

  7. eljay
    April 26, 2011, 1:38 pm

    >> Israel’s ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, asserts rightly that in view of the current political upheaval, America has no better or more trustworthy friend in the Middle East than Israel.

    Perhaps what he meant to say is “America is no better or more trustworthy than Israel.”

    Which explains the two countries’ “special relationship”. Both are aggressor-victims, both view themselves as morally superior to / more righteous than other nations, both are destructive forces.

  8. Scott
    April 26, 2011, 2:18 pm

    The Goldberg is actually worth reading. He is trying to argue to fellow right wing Zionists that the status quo is untenable, here more than there.

    • MHughes976
      April 26, 2011, 5:54 pm

      I’ll second that, if I may. The argument that the United States cannot for ever support a system whereby a government disfranchises many of those subject to it is put in realist rather than moralist terms – there’s no sense of actual moral scandal that this disfranchisement is taking place – but it does have the ring of truth. The subsidiary arguments that Israel should consider the Republican embrace dangerous and that the WB occupation is now hard to regard as anything but permanent are also stated forcefully, though I presume that Goldberg is, despite these remarks, a 2ss man of some kind.
      The theological arguments are mentioned without treating them as very important. The menacing, almost apocalyptic term ‘ultimate ally’ doesn’t echo loudly.

  9. American
    April 26, 2011, 2:22 pm

    I still can’t get over the flag thing so I put ‘Star of David on American flag’ into google search and got a variety of stuff. I think it’s a done deal that in the world’s mind Isr and the US are one and the same.
    We might never get back our sovereignty and concept of America as America unless we take a stand against ‘Greater Israel’. Chances are we will never do that given our political corruption.
    It’s all just so bizarre….we can point out all the examples and proof of the Israeli subversion in our political bodies and policies…and usually be called anti semites for saying it…..but then it’s totally true concerning Israel….and then we, or at least I, just still can’t wrap my mind around the fact that the USA, the super power of the world, the greatest democratic experiement ever, is half brain washed domestically and politically totally controlled by a tiny minority of zionist and a foreign country in such a critical area as our foreign policy and our obligation to human rights as in Palestine. I know this all true, but I am still in ’emotional denial’ I guess, that this could have happened to the US. I can’t conceive that a majority of our elected leaders would ‘sell out’ this country and the people…and then even be proud of it and encourage others to do the same thing. Too,too, too Orwellian..beyond Orwellian really. Depressing as hell.

    PA won’t file charges in improper-flag flaps

    PORT ANGELES — No charges will be filed against two owners of flags initially deemed improper and they will be allowed to keep their flags, Police Chief Tom Riepe said Sunday.

    Only one person actually was cited, Riepe said. Eugene Voight was cited on the Fourty of July for “improper display of a flag” after he displayed an American flag with a Star of David in the star field on his car in front of the courthouse.

    The 51-year-old Voight, who is not Jewish, said he made the flag to protest the United States’ relationship with Israel, which he thinks has too much influence over the country and its policies.

    Complete article is at link to peninsuladailynews.com…ory/html/98740

    link to tandis.odihr.pl
    Internet. In the site of the daily paper “Rizospastis”, official organ of the Communist Party, a flash animation, appearing in the home page, showed the Israeli flag scattering and the Star of David becoming one of the stars on the U.S. flag. Consequently, all the stars of the U.S. flag were turning into swastikas. Then the following slogan appeared: “Imperialism dropped its mask and put out its Zionist knife”.
    Athens, February 26, 2009
    Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece

    A large banner featured an American flag with a Star of David in it and the words, “No More War Crimes. Never Again. USA/Israel Out of Gaza . …
    http://www.adl.org/…/B79CB3B1-255C-4F5F-AD69-2F3D5944D835,DB7611A2- 02CD-43AF-8147

    Combating Terrorism Center: Islamic Imagery Project: Geography and …
    American Flag with Star of David back to top. From the perspective of the Muslim world, the United States and Israel are equally responsible for the Israeli…

  10. yourstruly
    April 26, 2011, 2:58 pm

    How could Israel be America’s friend when, as General David Petreaus and Vice-President Joe Biden, among others, have told us, the settler-entity’s intransigence vis-a-vis a ME peace accord is what endangers our troops in Afghanistan as well as national security here in the homeland? What’s more, if there was no U.S.-Israel special relationship, would there have been a 9/11? And if no 9/11, what of the Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Yemen/Somalia/Indonesia war?
    Israel America’s friend? With a friend like Israel who needs enemies?

  11. Tal
    April 26, 2011, 3:04 pm

    America’s Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism, for example, so one might just as easily argue that they would oppose Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and support the Palestinians’ efforts to secure their own independence

    But Zionism is not about “Occupying the west bank”. It is about establishing a homeland for the Jews in the land of Israel. Thats it.
    So maybe Oren is right after all. Maybe the founding fathers could be considered zionists.

    • yourstruly
      April 26, 2011, 3:50 pm

      except the so-called homeland for the Jewis isn’t in the land of Israel, it’s in Palestine, the homeland and birthright of the Palestinians. Occupying a native people’s homeland without the consent of the natives, that’s called conquest, strictly a no-no in the 21st century.

    • Jim Haygood
      April 26, 2011, 3:54 pm

      Try reading George Washington’s letter to the Jews of Newport:

      The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy; a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.

      link to teachingamericanhistory.org

      Contrast what Washington is lauding — ‘all possess alike the immunities of citizenship’ — with Israel, where Jews worldwide can make aliyah, but Palestinian refugees who were born in present-day Israel have no right of return.

      Washington a zionist? Only in your delusory dreams.

      • Keith
        April 26, 2011, 8:05 pm

        JIM HAYGOOD- “Contrast what Washington is lauding…”

        Talk is cheap. If we take an honest look at what our forefathers did to the native peoples, ethnic cleansing cum genocide, the parallels are difficult to ignore. For what it is worth, Hitler greatly admired what we did to the American Indians and patterned his lebensraum policies based upon the American experience. Hypocrisy is our national religion. We can’t learn from history if we deny history. Gang, we didn’t get to be an empire by being nice guys. Deal with it. Also, hypocrisy weakens your moral position. Support for Israel and support for empire go hand in hand. Likewise, opposition to Israel as a Jewish state should go hand in hand with opposition to the American empire. Dealing honestly with both Zionist and American history is an integral part of the process.

      • Citizen
        April 27, 2011, 4:00 am

        This crisp statement gets my YES vote:

        “Support for Israel and support for empire go hand in hand. Likewise, opposition to Israel as a Jewish state should go hand in hand with opposition to the American empire. Dealing honestly with both Zionist and American history is an integral part of the process.”

        How about you?

        PS: Thanks Keith.

      • Citizen
        April 27, 2011, 9:11 am

        Yes, Keith, Hitler was a student of American history and America’s racism, including the heyday here of “scientific racism.” As a kid Adolph devoured a German version of America’s devotion to the romantic concept of the natives as noble savages; his favorite pulp fiction character was Old Shatterhand. If you look at Nazi talking points from that era they justify the Nazi mission and mode by constant references to America’s wild west and pioneer days–the same talking points we get here from our Israel apologists. Totally ignored is the cost to the world of WW2 and the attempt since then
        to build a better world, starting with the Nuremberg Trials and the replacement of the League of Nations with the UN, and the internatinal law built since then; as well ignored is the world pressure on French colonialism (Algeria) and apartheid S Africa.

        Why not just use the Dark Ages or the Middle Ages as the light to the world? Or why not go back to survival of the fittest apes a la Darwin, another Nazi icon?

      • Keith
        April 27, 2011, 10:55 am

        CITIZEN- Excellent points! We need to be aware of history for the lessons it teaches us, not as a guide for current behavior. We have made progress since the nation was founded. Our goal must be to continue on the path of enlightenment, compassion and brotherly love. Our future well being depends on it!

      • Hostage
        April 27, 2011, 11:25 am


        The Germans were already using concentration camps and genocide as tools of their own colonial enterprise by the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

        The publishers of Richard H. King, Dan Stone (eds), “Hannah Arendt and the uses of history: imperialism, nation, race, and genocide”, Berghahn Books, 2008, ISBN 1845455894 said:

        Hannah Arendt argued that there were continuities between the age of European imperialism and the age of fascism in Europe in “The Origins of Totalitarianism” (1951), reprinted by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1994 ISBN 0156701537

        Experts in other fields reached the same conclusion. See Benjamin Madley, “From Africa to Auschwitz: How German South West Africa Incubated Ideas and Methods Adopted and Developed by the Nazis in Eastern Europe”, European History Quarterly, 2005; 35: 429-464 & the BBC documentary, “Namibia – Genocide and the second Reich”. All settler colonial societies are inherently genocidal. In the case of Southern Africa the genocide was conducted early-on and followed-up with collective persecution of the remaining indigenous populations under the guise of apartheid. Ariel Sharon consciously employed the same methods and ideas used in South Africa., i.e. massacre and Bantustanization,

  12. Les
    April 26, 2011, 3:31 pm

    I thought Obama was Israel’s chosen ambassador.

  13. justicewillprevail
    April 26, 2011, 5:31 pm

    The language is childish and sounds plain stupid: “no better or more trustworthy friend”? What, America is desperate for friends? That’s how foreign policy is conducted? Urgh, too much desperation and unctuous sense of self-interest masquerading as ‘friendship’. Let’s see now: caught spying on its best friend, killed their sailors on the high seas, wants a spy responsible for American deaths freed so they can hail him as a hero, taken tens of billion dollars from its friend and always comes back pleading for more despite being wealthy, refuses to make peace despite its friend’s pleading for tiny compromises……on and on. Yes, true friend, time for payback.

  14. ToivoS
    April 26, 2011, 6:53 pm

    The top 2/3 of this thread is a perfect example for how the Zionists can come in and completely deflect a thread.

    Note the subject of the post — namely the utterly absurd notion being argued by a prominent Israel that our founding fathers were Zionists.

    Note the main topic of discussion — the well known fact that our founding fathers supported slavery and inclusion of native lands into the US.

    These guys do this over and over. It is called deflection. They also use the tactic of dissembling and obfuscation. Please keep that in mind. When they try to move the topic off subject, don’t just engage, but come back to the main point.

    In this case Geo Washington the Zionists. Call Oren out — damn lying Israeli spouting more crap. Make his local backers defend that fool.

    • Chaos4700
      April 26, 2011, 6:59 pm

      Deflect attention and piss off most of the American readers of the blog to boot by implying our nation was subservient to the Israel lobby before there even was an Israel lobby!

      I love it how they deal with not liking the flowers in their neighbor’s yard by setting fire to the picket fence between.

    • Jim Haygood
      April 26, 2011, 8:59 pm

      The image included with Oren’s original article — of a U.S. flag defaced with Magen Davids in place of five-pointed stars — is offensive.

      link to foreignpolicy.com

      It fits in with a contemptuous Israeli pattern of appropriating and vandalizing U.S. symbols, even as it proclaims its friendship. AIPAC does this too.

      A rough equivalent, in terms of insult value, would be to replace the Magen David on the Israeli flag with a swastika.

      • Citizen
        April 27, 2011, 4:12 am

        Origin and history of the Jewish hexagon symbol as per this particular site:
        link to menorah.org

        More generally, the hexagon star has also been identified with witchcraft’s conjuring of demons.

  15. Citizen
    April 27, 2011, 9:55 am

    In implied context here, and apropos Netanyahu’s pending speech to the US Congress, here’s Netanyahu’s spotaneously telling the whole world last month what the proper view is: link to youtube.com

    1.) We (Israel, the US, all real democracies in the world) all fear that the Arab rebellions will be hijacked by Iran and radical Islamic regimes.
    2.) It’s not that we want the Syrian regime to fall, but that we’d like to see a real democracy there, as in all the Arab countries.
    3.) The reason for the Arab rebellions is that the Arab masses have learned in the 21st Century how they were skipped over by the 20th Century. Result is they too now want a stable democracy.
    4.) Only Israel is a stable democracy in the Middle East, with all its citizens being equal under the law.
    5.) How will Israel’s response, building 500 new settlemens, to Itamaru assure peace without violence? A few 100 houses built on disputed land is not the issue. The issue is the Palestinians refuse to negotiate for peace while Israel is ready to do so. The houses are being built in areas that every fair-minded person knows will be part of Israel, part of the Jewish ancestral and biblical homeland for 4 thousand years.
    6.) For 50 years, from 1920-1967, the Arabs kept attacking us they refused the right of Israel to exist at all. Most people in the world do not know that the Palestinians have refused to acknowledge Israel will be around permanently.
    7.) We hope there will be no 3rd infatida.
    8.) Why do I put up with A Lieberman? You need to understand that coalitions run the government in Israel; it’s a parlimentary system, not, as in the USA’s presidential system wherein the Americans elect anyone to be President and that President appoints anyone he wants.
    9.) In Israel, all are treated fully equal. We have Arabs in our parliment, our courts, and in the ranks of our ministers. Most people don’t know Arabs and Muslims are 20% of our citizens. Israel similarly supports the full rights of females and gays. Hence, Israel stands alone a beacon of democracy in a vast expanse of Middle East darkness, and as well, the only stable country there that is not shaking. So, if Israel collapsed, the whole Middle East would collapse.
    10.) So, it’s not Israel that is the problem in the Middle East. The Arab turmoil has nothing to do with Israel. The problem again, is that the Arabs have awakened to find they were skipped over by the 20th Century. Now they too want freedom and democracy.
    11.) In Israel all are created equal. That is one of our most basic beliefs. We are all children of God with the right to be free, to dream. We know this in Israel. My son is a top bible scholar; he teaches me. This makes me think before I act, because I think of our mothers crying for their sons. The world does not know in Israel all are equal before the law.
    12.) An experience that changed my world view was the death of my brother; he was a commando leader on the raid on Entebbe. So, as with mother’s crying for their sons, I engage in a moral battle, not merely a military or political battle or battle against terrorism.
    13.) I’d like to ask Churchill what would you do to act differently to persuade the great powers to act sooner against the Nazis? Churchill knew the problem well; he said that democracies sleep–they need time to react properly/effectively to a great threat. How can I do better this time around, Mister Churchill? The danger is Iranian terror and control of the oil supply.
    14.) The biggest problems and hence our mission is (a) to prevent militant Islamic regimes getting nuclear weapons: Iran, and the Taliban in Pakistan.
    And (b), we must find a substiture for oil.

    • Citizen
      April 27, 2011, 10:17 am

      Note especially Netanyahu’s total disconnect as to the US historically propping up tyrannical ME regimes so long as they catered to the US oil policy demands and special protective relationship with Israel–the US bribery of Arab regimes over the years has been at the expense of the Arab Street. The expensive armed forces of those regimes has mainly been so the corrupt few could have those forces as domestic police to protect the elite’s lavish life styles and continued power. The Arab masses missed the 20th Century because they were not allowed to access it, not because of some inate backwardness. If the US keeps up the same foreign policy it will be Americans who miss the 21st Century.
      Hopefully, the internet will help Americans as it has helped the Arabs so recently.

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