What do you do when Netroots is just not that into you?

Israel/Palestine
on 136 Comments

This is my second day of Netroots and I need to register the fact that I feel like an outsider here and sense common cause only with the many Asians who are here. Though they are not included entirely either.

The simple physics of it are: My issue is Israel Palestine and the Democratic Party’s leftwing base, the netroots, is not sure how it feels about Israel and Palestine. Jews are simply too important to the Democratic party and Jews are still largely Zionist, and that’s the deal, kid. I haven’t heard the word Palestine mentioned in a plenary session yet, even when they brought out an inspiring Pakistani blogger who mentioned atrocities.

Yesterday there was a panel titled “What to do when the President is just not that into you,” where I ought to have felt at home, I mean the president is not that into me; I heard him promise in Cairo 2 years ago to end settlements and since then he doesn’t write or call. But what were the issues — immigration and gay marriage and the ways those advocates feel sold out by Obama.

One theme of the conference is economic justice and I like economic justice, particularly because I am staying in my old haunts in Frogtown, St. Paul, and Frogtown is a hurting place. University and Snelling used to be a bustling economic zone, today it looks bombed out. The bête noire of the netroots conference are the Koch brothers. You can’t go to any panel without people taking shots at them, and also the Citizens United case. Last night Russ Feingold gave a stirring speech saying that the corporations were taking over our political process in much the way that they did in the Gilded Age and just as the progressive era followed that earlier chapter, we are on the verge of a great era of reform. We hope. Well I like that.

Except there is no foreign policy piece. There is no real talk about the endless wars. They come up here and there, but there is just no antiwar movement at Netroots and you can count the panels that address international issues on one hand, or two fingers. There was an Arab spring panel yesterday (it was great; I’ll have more to tell about that one) and this afternoon an Afghanistan one. Happy days. And just now on the big stage Kaili Joy Gray of DailyKos, who you might know as Angry Mouse, asked White House communications director Dan Pfeiffer about Guantanamo. Good for her.

But they’re not talking about Obama’s wars. Stem cells. Tax cuts. Same sex marriage. Climate change. Immigration reform. Food stamps. I am told that at the last Netroots, DailyKos commenters on Israel/Palestine thought about having a panel on the question but no one wanted to shed their Angry Anonymity.

Hey: It’s still too costly on the Democratic left to care about this issue.

You can say that people don’t care about foreign policy and I would agree. I gather there were two questions about foreign policy at the Republican presidential debate the other night. 2006 was the rare foreign policy election, but the country avoided the subject in 2008 and it will surely try and do so again in 2012. Except for Ron Paul.

Still I think the situation is unsustainable. Netroots is out of touch with the grassroots at a certain level, and you cannot see the urban destitution on University Avenue without reflecting that America’s wars have a lot to do with it and that the empowered elite that support the Israeli occupation has something to do with the Bush-Obama wars in the Middle East. That populist strain in the American discourse is largely absent here, amid all the talk of economic justice.

The one good sign for me are the many Asians here, and the Muslims. DailyKos is getting browner. These folks get it. Last night Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak said that 100 languages are spoken in Minneapolis and immigrants are the key to America’s global future, key to our living in peace. I found that stirring. I can’t wait for those grassroots to come to the grassroots. 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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136 Responses

  1. annie
    June 17, 2011, 11:35 am

    how many young people are there? under 30?

    of course netroots isn’t that into you phil, the hasbara trolls in the i/p section go bananas everytime anyone links to this site and they call it mondofront. they are deathly afraid of exposing the truth and especially want to portray themselves as non hasbara trolls.

    I am told that at the last Netroots, DailyKos commenters on Israel/Palestine thought about having a panel on the question but no one wanted to shed their Angry Anonymity.

    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! yeah, they sought ‘balance’ however the ‘balanced’ zionists of course cannot out themselves because they’re probably of the paid troll variety. meanwhile they froth at the mouth at pro palestinian discourse.

    dkos is a heavily guarded zio zone. it’s too important to be left up to chance. the college kids are not flocking to dkos and that’s where the future is.

    • Kathleen
      June 17, 2011, 12:19 pm

      Annie I have attended Netroots Nation twice. The last time in Pittsburgh. I would say it is a damn good balance in the age ranges. Not so much diversity of race. Although as Phillip has pointed out the Asian and Muslim participation has increased. A good thing of course.

      Phillip has to know that I have been politely pounding on Netroots almost since their first conference I think that one was in Vegas to open up discussion about the Israeli Palestinian conflict and how the US is seen around the world for its lop sided and criminal stances on this issue. How this issue as well as US support for dictators and our military bases undermine US national security on a daily basis.

      Have contacted Netroots staff, made solid suggestions for panels etc. Have talked to a few heavy hitters at the conference about this wall of silence that is no different than in the MSM about this issue. I think we keep bringing attention to this serious and unfortunate weakness. How an open discussion of these issues will not weaken Netroots but strengthen. We can do this in a civil and respectful way. I have brought this up on the Diane Rehm show, with Colonel Ann Wright, Medea Benjaman and with Cenk Uygar and a few others at the conference.

      Have Flynt Leverett, Juan Cole, Steve Clemons (who is there and I have challenged him to bring this issue up at Netroots) Noura Erakat, Anna Baltzer, Colonel Ann Wright, Phillip Weiss and others on panels about how these serious international issues effect us domestically etc. Netroots is way over due on dealing with this. Not sure if there is some back room discussions at Netroots to keep this issue in the closet or what. Not surprised though due to the blog clogs on this issue.

      Phillip has become a heavy hitter on this issue. But as I have pointed out to him and many other bloggers host of national radio shows etc that Netroots is no different than the MSM on this critical issue. No different.

      I have been hammering on this wall of silence at Netroots for years now. Glad Phillip is experiencing this first hand.

      And of course I totally honor that Netroots is doing amazing domestic work. Amazing.

      • Potsherd2
        June 17, 2011, 8:15 pm

        Anna Baltzer was banned.

        That pretty well sums up where Daily Kos stands on the issue.

      • Potsherd2
        June 17, 2011, 8:28 pm

        Anna Baltzer was banned.

      • Kathleen
        June 17, 2011, 10:12 pm

        You have to be kidding. Banned from Netroots Nation? Seriously? Tell me this is not so.. If that is the case then that would sum it up. She is one incredibly intelligent, articulate, vibrant individual. Clarity. Both she and Noura Erakat knocked my brain for a loop. Both are just dynamos…

      • Potsherd2
        June 17, 2011, 10:26 pm

        Banned from Daily Kos. Long time ago.

      • annie
        June 17, 2011, 10:34 pm

        she was banned from dkos. as far as i know netroots nation is for kossacks. maybe they allow banned posters to go tho i never looked into it nor did i ever seriously consider going after i found out they wouldn’t be having an i/p forum.

        what’s the point of electing better dems if every dem takes money from aipac and does their bidding? the money that would be freed up w/out pandering to our mini-me is enormous. it’s just not a topic they want to explore, too dangerous i suppose.

      • yourstruly
        June 17, 2011, 9:26 pm

        netroots is doing amazing domestic work?

        amazing enough to turn things around?

        thereby averting doomsday?

        anything less?

        too little, too late

      • yourstruly
        June 17, 2011, 9:57 pm

        & for turning things around?

        palestine

        born again

        by popular demand

      • yourstruly
        June 17, 2011, 10:37 pm

        but why palestine?

        why not the struggle for tibet, kurdistan?

        health care for all?

        a woman’s right to choose?

        timing

      • Kathleen
        June 18, 2011, 9:02 am

        First Apartheid is wrong. Israel’s brutal, cruel and deadly actions are horrific. Israel destroyed a US Naval ship on purpose. No accident.

        Clearly you have not been paying attention. This conflict has had people in that region seriously pissed off at the US for decades. This is one if not the top reason for the attack on 9/11 along with US support for dictators and US military bases on Muslim lands.

        Former head of the CIA’s Bin Laden unit Micheal Scheuer, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, Kathleen and Bill Christison, Former President Jimmy Carter, Former head of the IAEA El Baradei, General Jones, General Wesley Clark, former weapons inspector Scott Ritter, and many many more experts, historians keep repeating that US support for Israel is one of the main reasons that that part of the world and others around the world are so deadly angry with the US.

        It is even finally somewhat addressed in the 9/11 Commission report. Does the US want to live in a world where these angry people are always gunning for us..looking for a way into the US to blow some of us up? Or do we want to sincerely and honestly look at this issue and attempt to resolve it?

        Former head of the CIA’s Bin Laden unit Micheal Scheuer
        Report Video Issue

        Terrorism and Homeland Security
        Jan 4, 2010

        C-SPAN | Washington Journal
        Michael Scheuer talked about the latest on the attempted Christmas Day terrorist attack on Northwest flight 253, new security procedures, Al Qaeda in Yemen, the recent killings of CIA employees in Afghanistan, and other topics. .. Read More

        47 minutes | 33,521 Views

        link to c-spanvideo.org
        —————————————————————–

        link to c-span.org
        ————————————————————–
        link to c-span.org

      • yourstruly
        June 18, 2011, 9:32 am

        timing as in from this moment on?

        in the spirit of those eighteen days at tahrir square?

        each and everyone a leader?

        & being equally important both in the day to day & the total scheme of things?

        template?

        palestine

        just and free*

        *by way of the struggle to return the palestinian homeland to its people

    • pineywoodslim
      June 18, 2011, 9:11 pm

      @Annie,

      “how many young people are there? under 30? ”

      Strange you ask. My wife and I drove up to Minneapolis today to go to the farmers market and generally get our big city fix–we live in north Iowa less than two hours away–not to participate in netroots.

      Anyway, we were walking down Nicollet and there were any number of folks out and about with leaflets and petitions for various leftwing causes approaching pedestrians for donations, signings, whatnot.

      My wife and I thought it funny that one of them approached us, a couple in their sixties, though both of us are most likely farther to the left than any of the 20-somethings who were leafleting.

  2. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 12:21 pm

    The line between real progressive bloggers, candidates, news show host needs to be drawn far more clearly on this issue

  3. clenchner
    June 17, 2011, 12:23 pm

    1. I had no problem posting in I/P issues in DailyKos. Of course, the strong supporters of Israel savaged me in the comments section sort like the ‘insult comic’ section does here. Meh. Sort of cancels out.

    2. Last year, J Street organized an informal caucus style meeting at NN. They struggled with the same issue – disinterest in officially including the issue. Two years ago in Pittsburgh they organizing a happy hour event, and Markos M. attended. The point is, it’s not like the NN crowd is hostile specifically to a MW or PW approach any more than they object to a J Street approach. They just don’t want to embrace an issue that is divisive when the goal is to build power for progressives and Democrats.

    3. And this is a big problem for the small tenters. But engaging with the broad progressive/Democratic left as folks who ‘don’t get it’, addicted to ‘Ziocaine’ and other demeaning epithets, alienates even potential allies. How might addressing the Palestine issue work for a broad social movement that wants to build power at home? I’m not sure. But it probably involves lots of diplomatic behavior, coalition building, education, etc. The kind of stuff that American Task Force on Palestine or Jim Zogby is good at.

    4. Annie, there are tons of young people here, as always. This event doesn’t attract too many college kids for some obvious reasons – a large number of attendees attend because they work for someone who will pay for it, or at least offer time off, etc. But attendance this year is bigger than last year (a long trend!) Once the missing college kids get a job on the staff of a politician, progressive think tank, union, etc. then they will attend. The training can’t be beat and it’s a great way to meet great people working on progressive issues from around the country.

    • Max Ajl
      June 17, 2011, 2:09 pm

      Clencher, although there are issues of big-tent vs. small-tent to be raised in the real world, there’s a prior issue. You seem to think the Democratic Party has a progressive agenda, and that it could potentially be part of “a broad social movement that wants to build power at home.” The job of the Democratic Party is to prevent the coalescing of a social movement, and to prevent a progressive agenda from being implemented. The Democratic Party is a capitalist party. Its job is to blunt and if possible disperse and destroy bottom-up social change and anger at the system. Obama did that perfectly. The question of fitting Palestine solidarity work into a broader social movement is a real one. There are many who comment on this blog whose agenda seems quite contrary to grassroots movement building. Nonetheless, the Democratic Party is bought and paid for, and any movement oriented towards the Democratic Party as an electoral vehicle has already made itself impotent.

      • Richard Witty
        June 17, 2011, 2:22 pm

        There is small tent and there is miniscule tent.

        A small movement can prospectively effect change, and prospectively positively.

        A miniscule movement does something different.

      • Mooser
        June 17, 2011, 3:12 pm

        At least that comment was a minscule movement. That’s progress.

      • Chaos4700
        June 17, 2011, 10:26 pm

        I figured out that gay, non-Jewish little ol’ me was WAY too big to ever be in your Zionist Orthodox pup tent a long time ago. Fortunately for you, Witty, there are men I absolutely will not share a sleeping bag with.

      • Theo
        June 18, 2011, 10:11 am

        What you being gay has to do with the issue?
        There are only good people and bad people according to my scale!! Any other classification is just a crap.

      • clenchner
        June 17, 2011, 3:19 pm

        Max, I respect your opinion but disagree. More to the point, so do the major social movements and groupings of our time: the civil rights movement, the immigration reform movement, the community organizing/anti-poverty movement, supporters of reproductive choice, marriage equality, etc. All are focused on things like expanding the electorate with voter registration, efforts to get more diverse candidates to run, etc. Whenever an individual, organization or movement walks away from all that, they become instantly marginalized an ineffective. Even I wish that weren’t the case – I’d welcome more political diversity in the US – but it seems to be that way.

      • Max Ajl
        June 17, 2011, 3:31 pm

        That’s interesting. With some exceptions, I’d say the Palestine solidarity movement, insofar as it’s a movement, has general contempt for the Democratic Party, and it’s one of the few movements that has actually stayed alive during a time of massive left reversal and quiescence, not merely since 2008 but since 1968. Compare to the anti-war movement, which mostly de-mobilized amidst the Obama presidency. There are now academic studies about this. See link to www-personal.umich.edu

        You say “most major social movements and groupings” disagree with me, and as a result, “Whenever an individual, organization or movement walks away from all that, they become instantly marginalized an ineffective.” Perhaps they become marginalized because the major social movements and groupings are making a bad choice: choosing quixotically to try, and fail, to reform a core institution of capitalist power from within rather than recognizing it for what it is and choosing to organize independently from it and pressure it from without. Lenin called this “false consciousness”; he thought it inhabited the working-class. Actually I’d say it’s more of a middle-class phenomenon, because comfortable people feel inclined to work within the system rather than to try to rock it or break it. Working-class people know that the system doesn’t do anything for it. Thus they don’t bother to vote — it’s not worth it when the issue is choosing what color and brand the knife that’s going to cut your neck is when either way at the end of the day you’re dead.

        Whether anyone thinks it’s the lobby corrupting the Democrats or whether the Democrats were already corrupted by capital (the lobby is capital, anyway), you can’t cleanse the corrupted, and making the political choice to do so is tragic, whether the majority of these “movements” choose to do so or not.

      • Keith
        June 18, 2011, 12:53 pm

        MAX AJL- “Actually I’d say it’s more of a middle-class phenomenon, because comfortable people feel inclined to work within the system rather than to try to rock it or break it. Working-class people know that the system doesn’t do anything for it. Thus they don’t bother to vote …. ’

        So you think that Marx and Lenin came from lower class backgrounds? I believe that most of the leadership for social movements has historically come from the middle class. Additionally, poll data indicates that most “working people” are quite conservative in their thinking. For example, there is strong opposition to a steeply progressive income tax among the poor because they bizarrely hope to either win the lottery, or that their kids will become rich, and they don’t want that taxed away.

        Finally, what could be easier than protesting at the polls? If people simply voted third party or independent, that would send a message to the elites and, more importantly, to their fellow citizens that they reject business as usual and are ready to do something about it. Why bother to organize actions when people are demonstrably too lazy or apathetic to vote against the system? Also, most people are basically faithful followers who go along with elite rule. Claiming low voter turn-out as some sort of de facto opposition to business as usual, hence, a victory of sorts, is pure spin. Until significant numbers of people indicate that they can break free from the massive propaganda and think independently and rationally, nothing will change except by elite design. And things are changing. For the worse.

      • Danaa
        June 17, 2011, 3:27 pm

        Max, I tend to agree with you about the real purpose of the “Democratic” party, which is right now just a fig leaf for neoliberal, empire-strikes-back policies. Indeed, where were they when the big labor battle went down in Wisconsin? A you ay, the democratic party is there as the vanguard to co-opt the progressive cause and prevent it from jelling – or going astray. That’s why people like Nader and Bernie Sanders and Cornell West are outside the tent (that was something a couple of weeks ago when they all piled on West for saying it like it is. I enjoyed the contortionists in action).

        And who is inside the tent? why – gay marriage and illegal immigration and lots and lots of abortion talk. How very safe….how very well designed to keep middle America away – heaven forbid there might be some common causes with red state rubble and unwashed rural america types.

        How are the boundaries defined? Koch brothers and Fox news and Sarah Palin. Enlightening and oh so novel….

        Who and what is Rachel Maddow talking about for hours at end (even as Greece is burning…) – why Vitter – that’s who. I don’t even bother to listen to her program any longer – it’s become a parade of trivia. And that’s what co-opting looks like.

        But there in lies the rub. The I/P issue with all the attendant acrimony may just be the perfect wedge – to peel off some real from the wanna-be, pretend progressives. I say, make it THE issue and see what happens at the oh-so-clubby netroots.

        Now I need to go off and see where David Sirota made his stand on that (and he better have…..).

        BTW, the guy I really miss reading is Paul Rosenberg who used to post at OpenLeft, now sadly closed because its key members were….indeed….co-opted. That was a great lesson to me on what happens to “movement” people when they get out of line. You would have liked Paul I think (though I may be telling you nothing new). I really liked that super-wonky fellow – was like comfort food, if hard to digest sometimes.

        PS this was a special Friday rant -

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 3:14 pm

        The I/P issue with all the attendant acrimony may just be the perfect wedge – to peel off some real from the wanna-be, pretend progressives. I say, make it THE issue and see what happens at the oh-so-clubby netroots.

        i completely agree. what’s the whole open left ‘co opted’ thing about? i was out of that loop altogether.

      • Danaa
        June 18, 2011, 3:59 pm

        annie, it’s a long story about Open Left. It was a very good group blog, IMO, very different from DK with many first rate commentators. One of the key founders – Chris Bower – got an offer he couldn’t refuse from DK, where he has his action group now, funded and all. The other main founder (whose name popped out of my head just now) also received a great offer and kind of left sometime before that. It was then too difficult for the remaining group to keep it all afloat.

        There were many good things about that site, I thought. For one thing the posts were generally in depth, with much less compromising and sops to the democrat party than say DK or FDL or the other left leaning blogs I’d look at. Chris had often super-posts – he i a true realpolitik kind of guy – and Paul Rosenberg is a diamond in the rough – as I mentioned above – way too wonkish for most perhaps, but very original, thorough and uncompromising. There wa also a great guy who posted on education and another (Adam Bink whose beat was LGBT).

        This was really a site where people engaged in discussions on what progressives can do to come together in a movement, what the agenda could be, whether a third party is even feasible, and how big a tent must it be to make it so. Very little of the silly petty back and forth you see in comments sections on DK or FDL. Perhaps the blog was a bit too high minded – maybe even a little over-intellectual – for those people who, I suspect, come to comments sections in, eg, DK- more out of a kind out of emotional need to form a social “network” than commitment to the issues. Not faulting anyone for this, mind you – we all need a place where everyone knows our name (ie where like-minded people can bond – at least till they find they are not so like and not always well minded). It just makes for too much banter for my liking – the issues are just too dead serious.

        I should add that of all the left sites, OpenLeft did not mince words when it came to I/P. There were not a lot of posts there on the issue, but when they came up they were hard hitting. Same with Afganistan, Guantanamo etc. In other words, it was staunchly anti-war and when necessary, took Obama to the task – across the board. I think it was also well aligned with the kind of take Glenn Greenwald is famous for.

        There were many commenters and occasional diarists, like David Mizner and Sherald (posts at FDL too, I think) who read MW and comment about the ME – and they were all well received.

        The archives are still there, along with all the sad lat day good byes. If I get a chance this week end I’ll find a couple of especially good posts from the recent past to link here.

        Also, I’ll add that some of the commentators ganged together and started another blog – I’ll dig out the name later (I think it’s called now TurnLeft or something…need to check). I was thinking of participating, but too many demands on my time, just now.

        Some other time, I’ll comment on what I meant by “co-opting”. I think it’s an important angle especially as I keep worrying that this can happen to Phil – the once-in-a-lifetime offer and all that.

        Sorry for the long answer….hope I didn’t meander too much (see Avi below…).

      • MRW
        June 19, 2011, 3:00 am

        Danaa June 17, 2011 at 3:27 pm,

        Another post I agree with. Maddow rants about Vitter because she got the idea from Greenwald vis-a-vis Weiner. She has a new multi-million dollar apt in NYC that she can’t afford to compromise. Typical.

        And shit-howdy, do I agree with you about Rosenberg. You could hear his own breathing in his words. He was one of the first to write this, as I remember, which I PDF’d immediately:
        link to openleft.com
        Rosenberg was dead-on about the economy in that blog. [BTW, catch these brilliant, simple explanations from Stephanie Kelton on Bill Black's blog]
        link to neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com

        Also, I remember another Rosenberg rant about the recovery that was dead-on as well. He’s way ahead of the progressive curve in copping to what’s going on, consistently insightful, and I didn’t find him wonky at all. I thought his hair was on fire and I loved it. What he did that so many others don’t was write his shit with facts and figures. He didn’t stand in front of the mirror while shaving and say, “Gee, I think I’ll write about this today. I think I might have an opinion about that.”

    • Mooser
      June 17, 2011, 3:17 pm

      “addicted to ‘Ziocaine’”

      Yes, I thought that was a telling coinage. So glad you agree. Really, though clench, I don’t think it’s gained any currency whatsoever.

    • Mooser
      June 17, 2011, 3:23 pm

      “the ‘insult comic’ section does here. “

      No clenchie-pie, I did not find the Rachel Corrie “pancake” and “frisbee” jokes funny, either. Not at all.
      Hey, I’ve got a fun idea, Clench, why not Google “Rachel Corrie pancake” or “Rachel Corrie frisbee” and “Ziocaine” and see which turns up the greater number of hits.

      • Mndwss
        June 17, 2011, 6:34 pm

        Restiamo Furious.

      • lyn117
        June 18, 2011, 3:52 pm

        Google changed “Ziocaine” into “Cocaine” and turned up much more hits

    • Kathleen
      June 17, 2011, 4:31 pm

      You are assuming that everyone at NN is on the same page about abortion, pro choice etc. I can guarantee they are not.

      At NN they have had panels on Afghanistan, now the Arab Spring. And as Phil points out bloggers from Bahrain, Pakistan but not a whisper about Palestinians. No there is something at the NN than just not wanting to touch a “divisive” issue. I am in agreement with the strong possibility that the organizers of particular bloggers are pro Israel no matter what folks.

      • clenchner
        June 17, 2011, 5:46 pm

        I just attended the panel on anti-Muslim bigotry. It was a good panel that carefully avoided anything related to Israel/Palestine until the Q&A.
        I asked about the absence of any mention of Israel/Palestine, the presence of bigots inside the Democratic tent, Weiner, etc. My feeling is that I was the only person who thought anti-Muslim bigotry was at all connected to political forces whose primary motive was related to Israel.
        Oh well!

      • Kathleen
        June 17, 2011, 10:07 pm

        Good for you. Hope you bring it up again…and again….

      • Kathleen
        June 18, 2011, 9:07 am

        Report Video Issue

        Terrorism and Homeland Security
        Jan 4, 2010

        C-SPAN | Washington Journal
        Michael Scheuer talked about the latest on the attempted Christmas Day terrorist attack on Northwest flight 253, new security procedures, Al Qaeda in Yemen, the recent killings of CIA employees in Afghanistan, and other topics. .. Read More

        47 minutes | 33,521 Views
        ——————————————————
        Ray McGovern…Israel
        link to antiwar.com
        link to counterpunch.org
        —————————————————–
        Articles by former CIA analyst Kathleen and Bill Christison…Israel US National Security
        link to counterpunch.org
        link to cosmos.ucc.ie

      • Kathleen
        June 18, 2011, 9:08 am

        link to c-spanvideo.org
        Micheal Scheuer

      • gazacalling
        June 18, 2011, 2:21 pm

        Not on the same page on abortion!? Surely you are joking.

    • annie
      June 17, 2011, 6:47 pm

      Annie, there are tons of young people here, as always.

      oh, i have never been i’ve just seen the photo diaries. maybe they just do not include tons of them in the photos.

  4. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 12:24 pm

    Diane Rehm show went another week during their International round up hour not even whispering about the I/P conflict. Put some things up about Netroots and Phillip’s focus the other day on the blooger from Bahrain at the conference. Just got a question through last week so did not think it was likely. But you never know if they will pick up a show idea via your suggestions (know this from first hand successes with these national shows)

    Never hurts to try.
    link to thedianerehmshow.org

  5. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 12:26 pm

    Phillip what about getting your head together with Steve Clemons, Cenk Uygar (if he is there this year doubt it now that he hit the big time) about this issue. Double dare you to bring this issue up during a question and answer period. I have. Go for it

  6. Susie Kneedler
    June 17, 2011, 12:27 pm

    How disappointing. So, on the central question of how liberals can press the U.S. government to work for universal human rights equally around the world–including Palestine, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, …everywhere–the Netroots falls as silent as the corporate-public media and for the same reason: money. I’m sad that the conference didn’t ask you and Adam to organize a panel, Phil.

    • Kathleen
      June 17, 2011, 4:32 pm

      NN has fallen “silent” from the birth of the DKos Netroots conference

  7. seafoid
    June 17, 2011, 12:29 pm

    I suppose you have to keep on making the connections, Phil

    In the case of bailing out Wall Street – and thereby the wealthiest 1% of Americans – while saying there is no money for Social Security, Medicare or long-term public social spending and infrastructure investment, the beneficiaries are obvious. So are the losers. High finance means low wages, low employment, low industry and a shrinking economy under conditions where policy planning is centralized in hands of Wall Street and its political nominees rather than in more objective administrators.

    link to nakedcapitalism.com

    ESTE MIERDA NO ES DEMOCRACIA

    • Potsherd2
      June 17, 2011, 8:21 pm

      Markos Moulitsas is the perfect case study of How To Go To The Bad.

      The footsteps not to follow, the road not to take.

  8. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 12:33 pm

    I would go through the speakers list and find my allies on this issue. of course not Jane Hamsher I really think she is a Pep) After the conference Mondoweiss could make a concerted effort as a group (bet Medea Benjaman would jump on this) to open the gates at Netroots on this issue. Knock down the wall of silence at Netroots. How different are they from the MSM onthis issue…not at all

  9. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 12:39 pm

    “The one good sign for me are the many Asians here, and the Muslims.

    Minnesota populations

    “Netroots is out of touch with the grassroots at a certain level, and you cannot see the urban destitution on University Avenue without reflecting that America’s wars have a lot to do with it and that the empowered elite that support the Israeli occupation has something to do with the Bush-Obama wars in the Middle East. That populist strain in the American discourse is largely absent here, amid all the talk of economic justice.

    Has been this way since the inception of Netroots. A net deficit. Telling.

    We can change this by continuing to shed light on this serious avoidance. Contacting the Netroots organizing team
    link to netrootsnation.org

  10. action
    June 17, 2011, 12:44 pm

    During the 2008 campaign liberal and PEP friends and sadly even friends who support Palestine would say to me about Obama, paraphrasing: He has to say that (uncritical support for Israel war crimes and outrages) because of the reality of American politics but just wait until after the election.

    Well, it’s more than a couple of years after the election, Obama supported the Israeli massacre in Gaza as president-elect, and the you know, Democrats seriously just aren’t that into Palestinians and their supporters.

  11. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 12:44 pm

    “What do you do when Netroots is just not that into you?”

    Not into the issue. Has nothing to do with you. Terrified or truly Peps

  12. Danaa
    June 17, 2011, 1:00 pm

    The lack of interest in foreign policy issues in general is reflected across the spectrum for the Democrats. There’s hardly any discussion of anything “foreign” on MNBC for example. Just as there’s hardly any discussion of economic issues other than railing against the “corporations”.

    That is partly because Obama has turned out to be more Bush-like than democrats care to admit on those fronts.

    The other reason is the deep contamination of democrat party politics by Jewish involvement, and of course the outsize influence of money from wall street interests OTOH and jewish contributors on the other (and the two overlap sometimes).

    As you said once, Phil – zionism has made the Jews stupid…

    And it holds the democratic party (including the netroots) in thrall,

  13. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 1:06 pm

    Had never read this post by Ed Teller before
    link to my.firedoglake.com

    RBG pops up and gives Ed a lashing for bringing this issue up. Will mention again that Rayne and who knows who else wiped out all of my post over there about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, Iran, Nuclear weapons claim, post about former Cia head of the Bin Laden Unit Micheal Scheuer and much more. Hundreds of coments, links, research etc. That is how pissed they were that I questioned Jane Hamshers avoidance of this issue and Phillips write up about that exchange. Rayne and Jane are vindictive individuals if you question them. Telling and sad

    • Philip Munger
      June 17, 2011, 2:49 pm

      And RBG is a good friend.

      I’ve been invited to attend all the Yearly Kos events and NRNations. Haven’t gone to any, for one reason or another. Mostly, though, I have no desire to go, try to push my antiwar, pro-Palestinian rights, anti-corporate views there, and subsequently make even more enemies than I already have. I’d rather stay in Alaska, and hike, garden and fish.

      Good for you, though, Philip W, for trying to get the voices for Palestinian rights going there. I might consider going next year, if some are willing to do a flash mob for Palestine during the keynote event, or something like that.

      — Edward Teller/Philip Munger

      • lysias
        June 17, 2011, 4:14 pm

        Daily Kos has driven a lot of Palestinian and pro-Palestinian posters off the site.

        And the arch-Zionist poster on that site has a habit of calling this place “Mondofront”.

      • Kathleen
        June 17, 2011, 4:36 pm

        I don’t think I read Phil say he was actively trying to get things going at the NN. But hope he does. Have put the bug in Washington Note’s Steve Clemons ear. Asked him to bring this issue up during on the panels or question and answer sessions.

        Some of us have been nudging NN for years at this point.

        Hope others pile on.

        Phil was able to participate in the Flash Mob in Union station during the Move over Aipac conference. Fun, effective.

      • Kathleen
        June 17, 2011, 4:38 pm

        RBG may be your good friend but heshe sounded quite perturbed by your post. Not one bit encouraging or supportive. Rather snide..I thought. Sure glad not to have to deal with that bull anymore. Race for Iran, Washington Note, Foreign Policy, Mondoweiss far more open.

  14. MHughes976
    June 17, 2011, 1:49 pm

    Is there any thought, when it comes to What do you do?, to holding a Mondoweiss meeting or conference?

  15. Richard Witty
    June 17, 2011, 2:05 pm

    I’m sorry that your hope for impacting history is not getting rubber on the road.

    There are ways to make that history, on Israel/Palestine, but I don’t think its connected to partisan approaches.

    I think the ways are social and in social history, entirely absent of partisanship or polemic, even if they are right in your face.

    That is three-fold, but all within a common theme of humanizing the other.

    1. Learn, write, artfully convey Palestinian and Arab society realistically with the pathos of authenticity not legend (again, avoiding polemic entirely, just the people, just their individual and community lives). Historical and present and proposed.
    2. Learn, write, artfully convey Israeli and Jewish society with pathos, authentically; historical, present and proposed.
    3. Most important, artfully and authentically convey the intersection, the interaction of Israeli and Jewish with Palestinian and Arab. No mythology.

    If you present “Arabs and Jews never had any problems. Jews were always welcome peers in Arab society”, all thinking people will know that you are self-intoxicated or intentionally lying.

    There are then varying stories that you could then tell.

    Certainly, you must acknowledge that the relationship between settler Rabbi Froman and followers and their Palestinian neighbors is in a different universe than the relationship between Hebron settlers and their Palestinian neighbors.

    No polemic. Ask someone that is critical of your thesis to read your product, not a patron that is willing to pander.

    • James North
      June 17, 2011, 2:30 pm

      Richard Witty said, ‘I’m still avoiding mentioning Lucas Koerner. Instead, I’ll give pretentious advice, like

      Learn, write, artfully convey Israeli and Jewish society with pathos, authentically

      But when Lucas Koerner authentically gives us a glimpse at Israeli society today, I have absolutely nothing to say.

      • clenchner
        June 17, 2011, 3:25 pm

        You are making such an ass of yourself. It’s like a weird, serial cyber-stalking mission.
        Witty’s comments might be pretentious, but this hostile meme of ‘you have to answer my question precisely or else I’ll hound you’ is the blog equivalent of throwing cooties at a girl you like.

      • Shingo
        June 17, 2011, 6:23 pm

        You are making such an ass of yourself. It’s like a weird, serial cyber-stalking mission.

        Get a grip Clencher. 

        Witty is worse than pretentious. apart from being s pathological liar, a racist supremacist and an apologist for Israeli war crimes, he still carries on here as though he’s a star blogger imparting wisdom and advice to the rest us- not to mentioning being insufferable patronizing to Phil.

        He should have been banned a long time ago.

      • Donald
        June 17, 2011, 6:49 pm

        “Witty’s comments might be pretentious, but this hostile meme of ‘you have to answer my question precisely or else I’ll hound you’ is the blog equivalent of throwing cooties at a girl you like.”

        You’ve become the etiquette troll, clenchner. Shingo’s description of Witty’s behavior is correct–he’s an apologist for Israeli war crimes and he does carry on like some sort of guru bestowing words of wisdom on people who haven’t yet reached his elevated spiritual level. Why does it bother you that people criticize Richard or ridicule him when he comes on so often and types so much drivel? Ignore both Witty and his critics if you think it is a waste of time. But it’s interesting that James is the one who irritates you so much and not Richard.

        I think Richard is a pretty fair representative of what much of liberal Zionism amounts to. Again, not all liberal Zionists, but Jerome Slater and other honest people like him are not the ones in Congress or on the op ed pages of the newspapers or on television. People with Richard’s views dominate the liberal end of the mainstream in the US. They aren’t as pretentious, but they say the same things. It’s worth responding to Witty for that reason alone, and people who get sick of it can ignore it. But if you have a sensitive stomach you’d best turn off the TV or not read the newspaper when the I/P conflict comes up.

      • annie
        June 17, 2011, 7:08 pm

        You’ve become the etiquette troll, clenchner.

        clencher only patrols non zionists, he doesn’t bother himself w/criticizing zionists. he’s positioning himself in the alleged ‘middle’.

      • clenchner
        June 17, 2011, 10:25 pm

        annie, I see pro-Israel folks here say things that deserve rebuttal all the time – and they get addressed. Sadly, the community isn’t so good at setting civilized norms for those with the ‘correct’ politics. As though friends of Palestine get a pass when it comes to not flinging poop in public. It’s a real shame.
        Regarding Witty, I don’t care for his views or who he is as a person, or historically on this site. Just don’t care. Explaining your disagreements with him is probably a good idea. Flinging verbal poop at him makes him look much better, esp. to newcomers.

      • annie
        June 17, 2011, 10:40 pm

        Explaining your disagreements with him is probably a good idea. Flinging verbal poop at him makes him look much better, esp. to newcomers.

        i quit reading most witty posts a long long time ago. so much of what he says is just nonsensical dribble/’advice’. why is he here? it’s site harassment, definitely not worth addressing or ‘explaining’ imho. i completely disagree flinging poop at him could possibly make him look better. the only thing that could make witty ‘look better’ is witty himself and frankly i don’t think that cat can change his stripes.

      • Danaa
        June 17, 2011, 11:26 pm

        James North does a great service to us all. He take on Witty at precisely the level Witty needs taking. Not every human is deserving of respect for their opinions, especially when they lie and squirm and fling silly putty every-which-way but loose. Newcomers need to know that there’s absolutely no point in discussing anything beyond the weather with someone like our anti-mascot – and I am not so sure about the weather either, seeing that serious logic issues have eroded his wits to the bone. Witty’s is a fate of his own making and a daily dose of whipping is what the judge – and doctors – have ordered.

        I think JN is being rather kind. After all, we could appoint Avi in his stead…

        And one more thing – when people are persecuted and are suffering as much as the Palestinians do in the hands of their tormentors, when evil has seemingly staked a stand smack in the middle of the Jewish soul – as zionism devours it from within, then we who bear witness cannot be blamed for not quite having the patience to seriously engage with a pretentious narcissistic clown.

        My reading now is that Witty’s has been corrupted at the essence and JN merely exposes the rot.

        Though I’ll admit that once I thought there could be a cure, some day. But I am no longer sure – the worms may have eaten too deep into the core.

      • Avi
        June 18, 2011, 2:03 am

        Danaa June 17, 2011 at 11:26 pm

        I think JN is being rather kind. After all, we could appoint Avi in his stead…

        Or, we could appoint you, Danaa, in his stead. That way you’ll have the chance of boring witty to tears — practically torturing him — with your favorite, meandering, meaningless, “treatises”.

      • LeaNder
        June 18, 2011, 7:43 am

        Though I’ll admit that once I thought there could be a cure, some day. But I am no longer sure – the worms may have eaten too deep into the core.

        At the time I was wondering about your suggestion, on the other hand I hoped for his mental progression on the issue too. …

        Maybe romantic nationalist love to a nation is the Janus face of racism and antisemitism? Thus in spite of the fact that sometimes there seems to be evidence pointing the other way, in our special case study, the actor remains ultimately irrational. The addict may not be accessible to reason. Pushed into a corner he has to invent something that helps him to keep the romantic love intact. In a way his latest activities reminded me of the the kind of disputes were we invent or distort matters to keep the argument/fight going. It’s a deeply emotional affair to him. Only for the non-lover it looks as heading towards destruction,

      • Danaa
        June 18, 2011, 11:48 am

        “Or, we could appoint you, Danaa, in his stead. That way you’ll have the chance of boring witty to tears — practically torturing him — with your favorite, meandering, meaningless, “treatises””

        Hey Avi, through the glass darkly today? not to be too meandering, but I meant my little quip as a compliment…Oh well, that should teach me…

        LeaNder (if I may meander for a sec), me thinks you are on to something. Love sickness may indeed explain [much of] the Witty phenomenon. I didn’t think about that…

      • Donald
        June 18, 2011, 12:42 pm

        “Hey Avi, through the glass darkly today? not to be too meandering, but I meant my little quip as a compliment…Oh well, that should teach me…”

        I think he misread you, but good lord, what a reaction. I like your posts, Danaa and I’m going to guess I’m in the majority here.

      • Danaa
        June 18, 2011, 1:09 pm

        Thanks Donald. Reciprocated.

        Not to worry. Nothing like MW to toughen us all up (as ruffled feathers swirl….).

      • American
        June 18, 2011, 1:11 pm

        We need witty—to show just how bizaare and convoluted the minds of zios are.

      • Robert Werdine
        June 18, 2011, 1:58 pm

        With all of this negative attention and abuse being heaped on poor Richard Witty, I’m beginning to feel neglected.

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 2:20 pm

        bob, don’t feel neglected. remember you are expendable. richard is our house zionist, he cannot be removed. long story.

      • MRW
        June 19, 2011, 1:39 am

        Ditto, Shingo and Donald.

      • Kathleen
        June 19, 2011, 11:34 am

        Witty, Werdine, tiny persistent reminders of what Palestinians go through everyday. Lies repeated, poked, harassed, persistent verbal abuse, more lies, ethno and cultural centrism. Just tiny reminders.

        Will never forget when I was at a Palestinian solidarity conference in Columbus Ohio at Ohio State. A rabid Rabbi as well as a group of Jewish students stood outside of the building where the conference was held and screamed through a speaker “murderer, murderer” to every person walking in. I turned around politely went up to the Rabbi and students and asked them to come in. Told them I would get up with them if there was anything anti Jewish said in the conference. Promised I would walk out with them. The Rabbi picked up his megaphone and started screaming in my face “murderer, murderer” I turned around and little did I know that a TV crew was filming I said to the TV crew “I think I just experienced a tiny fraction of what Palestinians experience all of the time”

        My friend Art Gish (who was a speaker at the conference) had been standing off in the distance. When I went over to speak with him and said “did I just experience a tiny bit of what you and others have experienced witnessing the occupation” He confirmed my feelings

    • Mooser
      June 17, 2011, 4:06 pm

      Richard, I love the way you write. For one thing, if I had all your posts printed on heavy paper, I’d never have to buy sandpaper again.
      And your comments remind me of a kind of plant: mangle-wordsle.

      • Mooser
        June 17, 2011, 4:07 pm

        I guess that’s the special ingredient in Witty’s word salad.

    • Sumud
      June 18, 2011, 4:18 am

      That is three-fold, but all within a common theme of humanizing the other.

      How does permanently reserving the right for Israeli zionists to ethnically cleanse Palestinian Israelis “humanize the other” Richard? Do you think this isn’t an example of “polemic” because you couch it in polite language?

      I’m not going to present the plethora of comments you’ve made espousing jewish supremacism again, because I’ve done it all before, here, for example.

      Adopt a position even more extreme that Avigdor Lieberman then claim you are a liberal; it’s an open invitation to ridicule.

      clencher – just peruse the collection of Richard’s comments I posted above and it should be extremely clear why he is received as he is.

      • clenchner
        June 18, 2011, 11:31 am

        I’m mostly a believer in nonviolent activism, extending to nonviolent language and more generally trying to ‘be the change you want to see in the world.’ The best response to Witty is to argue with him (or not), including what you do, bringing forward his quotes from the past. That’s fine.
        It’s easy to let anger overwhelm you, to use the shield of anonymity to act in ways that would provoke a very negative response in real life. It happens to me, making me not so much a hypocrite as just human. But here, there seems to be a kind of tolerance of intolerance completely at odds with the noble mission of supporting Palestinian rights.
        Finally, I do think that supporters of peace and justice are harmed, not helped, when they demonize liberal Zionists because things they say can be presented in the harshest possible light. Witty aside, liberal Zionists have been an important part of many important struggles, and that won’t change any time soon. The Israeli left would be so much smaller and weaker without the important work done by Zionists working inside Btselem, Rabbis for Human Rights, New Israel Fund, Machsom Watch, Physicians for Human Rights and so many others.

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 11:57 am

        speaking of non violent action have you read or watched Video of unarmed resistance in Qalandia? it is worthy of your time (as opposed to wasting it advising regulars who are not ‘overwhelmed w/anger’ wrt our site’s uber zio-mascot )

        In an earlier report about the demonstration, I challenged the Jerusalem Post to substantiate its claims that Palestinians used Molotov cocktails and rolled burning tires at soldiers. They have not responded or changed stories that claim that Palestinians employed such violent techniques. In effect, they are highlighting their own irrelevance as a credible news organization by maintaining their silence.

        The video embedded here is a simple testament to the unarmed resistance spirit of the demonstrators on that day. Social media sites like YouTube and Twitter are allowing Palestinians, so often portrayed as violent in the mainstream media, the opportunity to show their points of view. No matter what political side you are on, this video speaks to the human desire for freedom from domination.

        this is an excellent video, i’m surprised it’s only gotten 553 youtube views. watch it and quit wasting your time w/concern over how people respond to witty!

      • Danaa
        June 18, 2011, 12:11 pm

        clencher: “But here, there seems to be a kind of tolerance of intolerance completely at odds with the noble mission of supporting Palestinian rights.”

        We are not all here to be “enobled” you know. It is not possible to read MW and see the news coming out of Israel’s killing fields with anything other than outrage. Not to mention their liberal zionist enablers who are busy threading needles as Palestinians are persecuted.

        I wonder how you’d reason with the little Stalins of this world? As we engage in polite conversation, israelis – with the support of the “liberal zionists” and their big money enablers are busy concocting schemes to send Palestinians to gulags – and get away with it. You say you are (were) an Israeli. In that case you should know how people think over there and what they really want to do to the palestinians. You know the hideous extent and pervasiveness of racism and religious/ethnic intolerance there.

        As for the Israeli “left”, it is miniscule and shrinking. The good people do what work they can and many do. But it is not for “nobility”. It is outrage and deep sense of concern for human welfare that propels people like Joseph Dana and Breaking the Silence. The same outrage expressed by people here, many of whom can only read and bear witness to the atrocities committed in the Holy land. It is understandable that patience can be sometimes in short supply, especially with one such as Witty who is, to all appearances, beyond salvation.

        Beside, speaking of the ziobots who show up here, can you honestly say a single mind has ever been changed through polite back and forth? have you ever personally seen any “liberal zionist” come around on ROR and entertain the possibility that perhaps there are options to address it? and can you honestly say you have changed a mind yourself?

        None of this should discount the important work done by the organizations you mentioned. It’s just that they are too few in numbers and dollars, and the plans for the “ultimate solution to the Palestinian problem” are in full gear, and definitely not short of resources.

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 12:36 pm

        their liberal zionist enablers who are busy threading needles as Palestinians are persecuted

        ah yes, and when all else fails divert the conversation to ‘us’ and polite ways to discuss genocide lest we be perceived as loosing it.

        more zio-positioning, such a bore.

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 12:43 pm

        I do think that supporters of peace and justice are harmed, not helped, when they demonize liberal Zionists

        liberal zionism is an oxymoron. zionists demonize themselves far better than any of us could ever do them justice. we mostly expose hypocrisy and are not in the demonizing business. that’s the domain of occupying ethnic cleansers claiming the victims are inhuman terrorists etc.

      • Donald
        June 18, 2011, 1:13 pm

        Clenchner, my own sense of this is that some liberal Zionists are people of integrity, like Jerome Slater. He insists on the need for a Jewish state, but he doesn’t lie about the crimes committed in its name beginning in 1948. The groups you mention are probably composed largely of people like Slater.

        Then there’s the other kind of liberal Zionist and they are characterized by a dishonest downplaying of the seriousness of Israeli crimes against Palestinians. Obama is a prime example–he uses the classic formulation of the dishonest liberal Zionist when he characterizes Palestinian suffering in terms of “humiliation” while in sharp contrast he empathizes with Israeli parents who fear that their children might be blown up by Palestinian terrorists. This way of characterizing the conflict concedes the moral high ground to Israel. I think it is done consciously. Which side are you going to sympathize with if you knew nothing about the conflict except what you could glean from Obama’s speeches? They are designed to convey the notion without stating it outright that the Israelis, while wrong on some points, are basically civilized people like us, while the Palestinians with whatever legitimate grievances they might have, are suffering in large part because of their own barbarism. This is the form of liberal Zionism that dominates the liberal end of the debate within the US–the conservative end doesn’t recognize any Israeli fault at all.

        That, for me, is what underlies the hostility towards “liberal Zionism” that you find here. I think it goes too far when people don’t give due credit to someone like Slater, but the fact is that Slater is not the typical liberal Zionist in the US. Someone with Obama’s views is more typical of that position in the US, and Obama gets criticized for being too pro-Palestinian. It’s farcical.

      • clenchner
        June 18, 2011, 1:27 pm

        This is interesting: link to culture-of-peace.info
        “Not all anger is useful for consciousness development. The anger that can be harnessed to action and consciousness development is anger directed against the institutions of war and injustice, rather than anger directed against individuals as such. “You must not harbor anger,” Martin Luther King Jr. admonished himself at one point in his autobiography when speaking about a personal anger. “

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 1:44 pm

        this is like a bone you won’t let go of. so clencher, you could please provide us with and example from this thread of ‘anger’ at witty that you think is applicable to the anger you’re linking to.

      • Donald
        June 18, 2011, 4:10 pm

        “You must not harbor anger,” Martin Luther King Jr. admonished himself at one point in his autobiography when speaking about a personal anger.”

        I don’t think MLK was necessarily right about that. To say that you should only get angry at institutions just seems silly to me–it’s as though individuals who make bad choices aren’t responsible for their actions. You can take anger too far, of course.

        Anyway, you get a little angry at some of our behavior, clenchner.

      • MRW
        June 19, 2011, 1:44 am

        Good one, annie: “that’s the domain of occupying ethnic cleansers claiming the victims are inhuman terrorists etc.” In fact, the whole short punt was.

      • Mooser
        June 20, 2011, 12:26 pm

        “I’m mostly a believer in nonviolent activism, extending to nonviolent language and more generally trying to ‘be the change you want to see in the world.’”

        My God, do you lie that easily? You are an Israeli, right? So please, don’t even try and tell us you are a believer in “non-violent activism”.
        Say, maybe those bombs at the King David Hotel were ‘love bombs’

        Zionism is unashamedly based on violence, and you know it, and derive benfit from it.

        How stupid do you think the readers of this blog are, Clench?

      • clenchner
        June 20, 2011, 7:12 pm

        But Mooser, since I’m not a Zionist, actions of Zionists don’t represent me. Why is that hard to understand? I led trips of Jewish activists to work with the ISM, I stayed with the Christian Peace Maker Teams in Hebron, I got arrested blocking earth moving equipment in the West Bank, etc. etc. So why shouldn’t I call myself a non-violent activist?

  16. hughsansom
    June 17, 2011, 2:51 pm

    Tough question. . . . What do you do with people who are very committed to the view that they are open-minded, tolerant, democratic (in the small-d, broad sense), but who hang that all up on some issue? Edward Said described his friendship with Isaiah Berlin, beautiful thinker on many things and absolutely medieval on Israel. Said described Berlin just refusing to discuss the topic.

    Just goes to show that sheer force of mental power is insufficient to solve some problems. And that some great thinkers are also bigots. And most Democrats (big-D) are not even particularly _good_ thinkers, let alone great ones.

    • Haytham
      June 18, 2011, 6:03 pm

      This is said to be Berlin’s last statement on the matter, about 3 weeks before his death:

      Israel and the Palestinians

      Since both sides begin with a claim of total possession of Palestine as their historical right; and since neither claim can be accepted within the realms of realism or without grave injustice: it is plain that compromise, i.e. partition, is the only correct solution, along Oslo lines – for supporting which Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish bigot.

      Ideally, what we are calling for is a relationship of good neighbours, but given the number of bigoted, terrorist chauvinists on both sides, this is impracticable.

      The solution must lie somewhat along the lines of reluctant toleration, for fear of far worse – i.e. a savage war which could inflict irreparable damage on both sides.

      As for Jerusalem, it must remain the capital of Israel, with the Muslim holy places being extraterritorial to a Muslim authority, and a smallish Arab quarter, with a guarantee from the United Nations of preserving that position, by force if necessary.

      ISAIAH BERLIN
      16 October 1997

  17. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 4:45 pm

    “And that some great thinkers are also bigots. ” Some bigots in there and also just silent and complicit
    “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

    Thursday, May 29, 2008
    Archbishop Tutu:

    “…our silence and complicity, especially on the situation in Gaza, shames us all.”

    • thetumta
      June 17, 2011, 9:57 pm

      “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

  18. Kathleen
    June 17, 2011, 4:52 pm

    Dream I/P Panel at Netroots next year

    Amy Goodman moderator:
    Noura Erakat
    Colonel Ann Wright
    Hedy Epstein (I am in love with her)
    Ray McGovern
    Former head of the Bin Laden Unit Micheal Scheuer
    Omar Barghouti (ok shooting for the stars)

    Or Mearsheimer and Walt.

    Then those behind and in front of the scenes who are so pro Israel they are blind about the facts on the ground would scream we have to have the other side. But when the NN sets up their pro choice panels do they invite the birthers? Hell no

    I would suggest that folks start writing the staff of NN immediately

  19. ToivoS
    June 17, 2011, 6:05 pm

    After mentioning the Feingold’s feelings that the US might be on the edge of a second progressive movement Phil wrote:

    Except there is no foreign policy piece [here at NN]. There is no real talk about the endless wars. They come up here and there, but there is just no antiwar movement at Netroots

    Should remind people that this was true of the first progressive movement. Right at the time of all of those wonderful reforms, the US was embarking on its first imperial venture — the Spanish War and then the subjugation of the Philippines. The US killed an estimated 10% of the native Philippine population putting down their independence movement.

    There is a current aversion to foreign policy among progressives and there is no reason to expect that to change. As long as Obama is starting new wars the NN crew will want to avoid any “devisive” debates.

    • Potsherd2
      June 17, 2011, 8:24 pm

      Feingold is the Prince of PEP. Let him enjoy a long retirement.

      • Chaos4700
        June 18, 2011, 1:49 pm

        I don’t see him getting re-elected in Wisconsin any time soon. He wasn’t unpopular but he doesn’t have that strong of a following back home. You know honestly, Feingold made waves on certain federal issues, but overall, both Wisconsin senators got by mostly by coasting. Maybe Kohl moreso than Feingold but it’s not as if Feingold threw a lot of weight into actual initiatives.

  20. richb
    June 17, 2011, 6:49 pm

    I have a college-aged daughter and she had no idea what it’s like at DK. All her friends are pro-Palestinian and never occurred to her that the position was at all controversial on the left. If you want a modern example of what even a mild engagement looks like check out my attempt at rapprochement today:

    link to dailykos.com

    • NorthOfFortyNine
      June 17, 2011, 11:59 pm

      >> If you want a modern example of what even a mild engagement looks like check out my attempt at rapprochement today:

      Wow. Thanks for link. VolleyBoy has no idea what he sounds like. “Eat this or suffer for another 20 generations.” Calling this site “MondoFront”. Calling the Liberty incident an anti-semitic conspiracy theory.

      The guy is clearly hopped up on ethnic nationalist roofies. And that’s progressive?

      • richb
        June 18, 2011, 12:42 pm

        Not all the Zionists on DK are like this, though. Sure you got the stalkers and group donut droppers like on this diary:

        link to dailykos.com

        But on the other side of the coin you have people like Troubadour.

        link to dailykos.com

        Troubadour has stood up for proponents of Palestinian rights on DK against the abusers. This is especially amazing given his life story. Troubadour’s wife was attacked by a Palestinian terrorist in 2002. He wrote a book about how he went and sought out the family of his wife’s attacker. In order to find a publisher he needed to find a platform but he refused to go on 60 Minutes because of what it would do to his wife.

        He’s a very powerful writer. Here’s a recent example on DK:

        A solution? Dialogue. Human interaction. Confronting the narratives, the stories, and the humanity of the “other.” Not as the only solution, to be sure, for societal transformation must be matched by political boldness at the state level. But a solution, nevertheless.

        We know this works. Psychologically. Sociologically. For hate, for conflict driven by hate, is fueled, by and large, by an ignorance of the other, by a lack of understanding the other.

        We know this works. We know that this is one of the single most effective ways in which to counter the cultural hatreds and prejudices that swirl in our midst.

        A study entitled “Psychological Correlates of Support for Compromise: A Polling Study of Jewish-Israeli Attitudes Toward Solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict” by Ifat Maoz and Clark McCauley reveals that those Israelis and Palestinians who had met someone on the other side, who knew someone on the other side, were exponentially more likely to support compromised peace. Were far more likely to empathize with the other such that they desired a future in which both sides could thrive. Just by meeting someone. By knowing someone.

        This is why one of my goals, as a writer, is to tell the narratives of both my people and of my “enemy,” of the Palestinians. For these encounters with the other, with stories of the other, have as much impact toward solving intractable conflicts as any large-scale political solution.

        And the irony: all this has been precipitated by my personal encounter with Palestinian terror, by the violent product of hate on the other side when my wife was bombed by a Hamas militant.It has been precipitated by my subsequent meeting with the terrorist’s family, seeking to understand how this could have happened, seeking to understand them, to know their suffering, to transform the pain into something else.

        Anybody here that could help him get his book published?

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 1:05 pm

        richb, it has been awhile since i visited there w/any regularity. i’m not familiar w/the majorityvoice poster who appears to be a new poster and has posted less than 200 comments.

      • richb
        June 18, 2011, 2:05 pm

        Annie, the example I gave is not the best since it came from a relative newbie who had an axe to grind against Anthony Wiener. The following is a better and more on topic one from the Adalah group on the Arab Spring panel at NN. Note the thread hijacking by the usual suspects. Good low UID pro P folks on DK include soysauce, weasel, and unspeakable who is the diarist below.

        link to dailykos.com

      • annie
        June 18, 2011, 2:18 pm

        yes, i am quite familiar w/all those posters you just mentioned. none are zionists btw. don’t have time to read the comments, heading out to my son’s graduation shortly…

        ciao

      • General Choomin
        June 21, 2011, 11:42 am

        Yes he a bad person but he sure isn’t the worst. Most of the worst people on dailykos are the ones who hide out getting uprates in inane diaries to game the system. They do practically nothing until Israel ends up killing people in mass amounts or foreigners from the “west”. If you want to see some of the really hideous individuals just simply look at the diaries posted during the Gaza Massacre, during the time when Israel attacked the Gaza flotilla, during the time when Rachel Corey was murdered, during the Lebanon war, ect ect.

        Volleyboy is a terrible person who pretty much got me banned with his fellow white noise trolls. Him and his identical twin mets102 or whatever who is essentially his meatpuppet and irl conjoined who has never known a lukid lever he didn’t pull. Well they aren’t the worst there is there.

        The trajic part about it is that when drummed up reactionary outrage is generated there all the pro-peace people immediately by the zionist framework and distance themselves from the person or peoples being targeted. So they pick off people one by one because the pro-peace people by the troll framing of why they need to persecute and harass an individual until they are banned. It’s a pathetic shame.

    • MRW
      June 19, 2011, 1:56 am

      Richb,

      This is me too: “As a former Republican I’m very sensitive to fact-free thinking, inventing an alternate science and history. If you don’t have the facts straight a solution is impossible,” including the hard-left-turn. Except I didn’t get it from Dkos, which I won’t go near, I got it from reading long interviews of Jeff Blankfort, and subsequently his writing.

      • richb
        June 19, 2011, 11:43 am

        I got it by visiting Israel and discovering I was lied to by the entire American corporate media, not just Fox News. Even with the facts blatantly in front of the people on my tour they didn’t/couldn’t see it. I chalked it up to the fact I was on a Christian Zionist tour and this was another Republican/Fox News blind spot. Coming back my Democratic activist neighbor, my daughter who goes to CU Boulder, and even my progressive Jewish friends were all very much pro-Palestinian and in my daughter’s case all her friends were too.

        Jared Polis at NN yesterday was trying to show how the 2012 campaigns were run by progressives. Ra ra. Jared’s district includes Boulder, BTW. He contrasted how we are different than the Republicans focusing on domestic issues but not a peep on I/P. This is even though, again, pretty much all the CU students in his district are pro-P. One thing he brought up was the netroots as an ATM for the Democratic Party — ka-ching! My daughter has used the city of Boulder as a metaphor for the Democratic Party a guilty white city that’s expensive to live in but has many homeless people in it. If you are a rich, white Progressive like Jared everything’s fine, but if you work for a living or a person of color or a student, forget it.

        Now back to DK. I noticed that those of us who were concerned by climate change were just ignored. Still, I was completely unprepared for the outright hostility to the pro-P progressive majority. This hostility is driven by only half a dozen handles. They subscribe to pro-P diarists like myself and lie in weight to place negative comments. Some of these subscribers only HR other people’s comments. And it’s not just them. Not only the subscriber is HRing the comments but also the whole gang. It’s clear that this is a concerted rear guard action.

        There are many subjects on DK where there are large differences of opinions. While it can get rowdy the outright unpleasantness of the I/P topic is different and it achieves its desired effect of keeping most people away. Van Jones got it exactly right yesterday when he analyzed the Tea Party. The “base” crowd sourced what they cared about and Republican candidates had zero flexibility in denying them. There is literally zero force the progressive base has on the Democratic party and on DK whether they be pro-P, labor, or the environment. The Democratic Party is just as captured by its monied interests as the Republicans are by the Koch brothers.

        I would be completely depressed except the Arab Spring taught us the power of decentralized social media. Even dictators who control countries for decades cannot stop it. DK and NN are irrelevant if all they do is say we need to link our causes to the OFA meta-brand. They have to earn those links if they don’t want another 2010-style debacle at the polls. I’m seeing the start of the end run around the Democratic establishment and only see it accelerating in the future.

  21. thetumta
    June 17, 2011, 9:39 pm

    Home run and I’m not a baseball fan! As the fellow from Harvard said Obama’s homies are Jews, rich and powerful American Jews. The problem is here, not there. Solve the problem here and Palestine can take take care of itself. Gaza boats are not going to solve the problem here. No need to sacrifice any more young Furkins for nothing. In spite of your best hopes, this is not going to be settled peacefully. You will have to choose. Guernica, once again.
    Hej!

  22. SylviaIJAN
    June 17, 2011, 9:54 pm

    Hey Philip! Check out Minnesota Break the Bonds Campaign while you’re here. Also IJAN-Twin Cities. We’d be glad to see you.

    Sylvia

  23. Chaos4700
    June 17, 2011, 10:30 pm

    Why are we bothering to waste our time with crap-fests like this, anyway? The Democratic Party’s attitude toward Progressives are, “Give us your vote because we’re not Republican! Now shut the hell up, there’s no room for you at the table!” The Democratic Party is just Republican Lite now. Sooner or later they’ll probably even started kicking out relatively mainstream left wingers like Nancy Pelosi. Just look at what they did to Howard Dean, and there wouldn’t even still be a Democratic Party if it wasn’t for him.

    • American
      June 18, 2011, 1:21 pm

      I can never forget how the dems treated President Carter during the Obama campaign…and how many of them denounced him for his book.
      As far as I can see into the future I will still be writing in a name on my ballot.

      • Chaos4700
        June 18, 2011, 1:51 pm

        Yeah, there’s that too. I think we need to stop kidding ourselves. Democrats are hypocrites and the reality is there is no room for Progressives in the party anymore. We really need to take our business elsewhere if we want our vote to matter.

  24. Justice Please
    June 18, 2011, 5:54 am

    “You can say that people don’t care about foreign policy and I would agree.”

    I don’t believe for a second that Americans don’t care about their loved ones being killed overseas. And look at all the homeless people and all the foreclosures, do you really think Americans are too stupid to realize that the costly wars are not part of the problem?

    What I do believe however is this: Most people are not setting their own agenda. They wait for others to do it, so as long as the MSM and gatekeeper events like the one you attended keep the wars and the support for Israel off the agenda and focus instead on diversions like gay marriage, the people’s anger is not made public.

    Please look at this picture and think of what could happen if Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich formed an alliance and would not be silenced by the MSM but pushed:

    link to thejaghunter.files.wordpress.com

    The second everyone drops the old and inaccurate left-right paradigm and starts setting their own agendas, we can stop all of this.

    • Justice Please
      June 18, 2011, 12:40 pm

      Oh and Phil, I really like that you stick to what matters to you instead of taking the feel-good approach the others at the event evidently took.

    • Kathleen
      June 18, 2011, 6:05 pm

      “I don’t believe for a second that Americans don’t care about their loved ones being killed overseas.”

      A very small percentage of Americans put their own asses or have family members who put their asses on the line. And the MSM sure does not spend much time sharing their stories or the stories of their sacrifices. Too many comments by Sarah Palin and Weinergates to cover for them to spend time covering what is happening to our Vets

  25. Thomson Rutherford
    June 18, 2011, 6:36 am

    Weiss:

    My issue is Israel Palestine and the Democratic Party’s leftwing base, the netroots, is not sure how it feels about Israel and Palestine. Jews are simply too important to the Democratic party and Jews are still largely Zionist, and that’s the deal, kid.

    Money owns the Democratic Party. The “Democratic” Party is a Zionist Party because it has been bought with Zionist money and is controlled by Zionist organizations. If the leftist elements that comprise the “netroots” are part of the Democratic Party then they cannot be pro-Palestinian or anti-Zionist. In general, they are narrowly-focused, special-interest groups that pay little attention to issues of broad national concern, such as the economy and the nation’s foreign policy.

    Israel/Palestine is not in the purview of these single-issue “leftist” groups, unless I/P happens to be their single issue. Because they know that the Democratic Party is owned by Zionists, most serious pro-Palestinian, pro-justice activists want to keep some distance between themselves and that corrupted political party. They look for reputable allies where they can find them. They look to places like Mondoweiss.

    If the Palestinians must wait for the American leftist “netroots” (or whatever) to come to their aid, they will be waiting a very long time. It won’t happen. The “netroots” has no real sense of America’s national honor – it’s not an allowable concept in their political milieu.

    Relief of the Palestinian’s suffering will come only from an upwelling of populist revulsion among the American public. Since American Jews are predominantly Zionist, relief will not come from that small group. Rather, the non-Jewish public over time will come to understand that their government, year in and year out, is controlled by an extremely dangerous foreign government and its acolytes in the U.S. They will begin to see, as many of us see, how pursuit of Israel’s interests by their own government is antithetical to their own interests as Americans. They will notice that Israel is a theocratic, ethnocentric, fascist state with national values directly opposed to the highest ideals of American democracy: equality, liberty, and justice.

    These ordinary Americans, brought up with ordinary American values, will turn the tide against American Zionists, and in so doing they will enable the unleashing of a flood of universal sympathy for the Palestinians – both here in the U.S. and throughout the world. Israel will at last lose its U.S. patron.

    The populist anti-Zionist movement in America will happen. Not this year, nor the next, but it will come. If it doesn’t, the Palestinians are doomed, and the Zionists know it. That’s why they keep piling up the sandbags – trying to keep the public ignorant.

    Nothing remains the same. Everything changes if you wait long enough.

    Anyhow, Phil, thanks for covering the “netroots” shindig, for whatever it was worth.

  26. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 8:27 am

    Netroots Nation Raven Brooks is going to be on Cspans Washington Journal in awhile. Give him a call. Ask him why Netroots avoids this critical issue? Now we know he will say that Netroots is not really involved with any international issues. But that is not true. Netroots has had panels on Afghanistan

    Give him a call. Be polite with the screener. You may not want to mention this avoidance to the screener. Cspan is being pressured by the pro I lobby group Camera. Trying to shut down the debate on Washington Journal. Stop facts from getting through
    link to c-span.org

  27. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 8:31 am

    oops Raven Brooks not going to be on. Open phones. Call about Netroots avoiding this issue

  28. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 8:36 am

    Call-In Numbers:

    
 Democrats: (202) 624-1111
    
 Republicans: (202) 624-1115
    
 Independents: (202) 624-0760
    
 Outside U.S.: (202) 737-2579

  29. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 8:52 am

    Trolls leading people off track. Call, contact Netroots Nation let them know you are fully aware that they avoid taking a humanitarian stance on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. In fact they avoid this issue all together. Ask them to put together panels on this conflict and Iran next year. These are critical issues to discuss and for progressives to take a progressive stand on.

    Contact Netroots Nation. Let them know
    link to netrootsnation.org

  30. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 9:45 am

    ot
    Watching this interview with former head of the CIA’s Bin Laden unit about the Bin Laden killing. Towards the end of the interview call in program callers ask questions about the dual loyalties of individuals in the US and Gretta interrupts cuts callers off etc. She says “we have heard these opinions before” As if people do not call in on other issues and repeat the same things. Micheal Scheuer noticed this and even responded with “they never got to their question” Basically saying you folks cut him off before he finished

    The pressure from Camera’s Cspan Watch must be getting to Cspan.
    They never get to the reasons that people hate the US
    link to c-span.org

  31. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 10:36 am

    You could also ask questions about this issue and others at Netroots at their live broadcast
    link to netrootsnation.org

  32. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 11:25 am

    Watching Netroots live. They are indeed doing such an incredible job on so many issues. Just watched the labor panel. Head of the SEIU. etc. Had a nurses aid who had formed a union speak. Incredible. She talked about the harassment that she was subject to because of trying to form a union for co workers. I have spent a great deal of time in nursing homes around the Dayton Ohio region while tending to my aging parents. Moving an ill WWII father in and out of several nursing homes, assisted living facilities. Became so curious that I have been into about 20 facilities now. Have talked at least 50 different nurses aides and many others health care professionals. The hard work that these aides do is mind blowing. This is where the real care that our seniors receive takes place. They often make pathetic wages, are overworked, understaffed and under paid. So need to build their strength through unions. Moving in that direction. But these mostly private institutions are fighting tooth and nail against unions. Fire folks like Wal Mart does if they hear anyone talking unions.

    Ari Melber who I really appreciate was doing an unusual amount of self promoting. He must have said he is looking for a talk show host job 4 times. What is up with that?

    • Thomson Rutherford
      June 18, 2011, 11:42 am

      Those who happen to have the Free Speech TV channel from their satellite provider, either DishNetwork or DirectTV, should be able to watch NetRoots Nation broadcasts all day and all evening Saturday.

  33. Kathleen
    June 18, 2011, 11:27 am

    If only Netroots would apply the same standards of justice and accountability that they are applying to wages, education, lgbt issues etc to the I/P conflict and other international policies instead of falling into line with the MSM we would see some more shaking up

  34. American
    June 18, 2011, 1:56 pm

    What Feingold said-

    ” just as the progressive era followed that earlier chapter, we are on the verge of a great era of reform”

    I don’t think so. Progressives are a collection of groups that mostly push their favorite single issues—gay rights, health care, jobs, social services, etc,etc..
    And they want what they want ‘within’ the current system by just electing dems and they won’t get it within the current system and they never seem to catch on to that.

    We will get reform when something so horrific happens to the US that the system status quo can’t continue. People will avoid big change, avoid uncertainty, avoid pain, right down to the second that they can’t avoid it any longer.
    No Pain, No Gain……and the longer people refuse to do anything about the fact that they in reality have no by, for, of the people government any longer the more painful the wakeup call is going to be.

    I have no idea what it’s going to take…..a Iraq war of lies didn’t do it, the Mafia Wall Street meltdown didn’t do it, 10% of US homeowners in foreclosure didn ‘t do it, double digit unemployment didn’t do it, having 12 billion of US and Iraq money disappearing in Iraq didn’t do it, prisoners still in Gitmo after 12 years hasn’t done it, the SC declaring corporations people didn’t do it,..and on and on.

    I really don’t want to hear the whinning over SS and Medicare or etc.,etc and how I have to vote for the dems to save these programs….BECAUSE…these same people take money in return for allowing Israelis to kill real people, yes KILL them…and if they will do this for money and politics they will do ANYTHING and the same things —to you.

    You want reform? –then Burn Washington to the Ground and Start Over.

    • Chaos4700
      June 18, 2011, 3:06 pm

      Here’s what I suspect — the Republicans making it impossible to raise the debt ceiling and meet our obligations won’t do it… but the consequences of that will.

  35. yourstruly
    June 18, 2011, 9:21 pm

    reason why the moment is upon us?

    consequent to these multiple unending wars that eat up tax revenues

    all these simultaneously occurring crisis

    the national debt

    the system of education about to go down

    health care for all getting deep-sixed

    insurance companies & wall street poised to pounce on whatever pension plans, including social security, that congress sends their way

    life in our inner cities not getting any better

    the worst recession since the great depression with no end in sight

    and the reason why an all peoples’ unity in the struggle for a just and free palestine could be magical for other progressive struggles?

    because said unity already exists

    worldwide

    anything else?

    one victory

    what it’ll take

    • yourstruly
      June 19, 2011, 1:27 pm

      oops, forgot to include global warming on the list of the crisis now upon us

  36. Citizen
    June 19, 2011, 9:43 am

    Netroots is not about Phil and his spiel, but, to be fair, maybe Phil is not about some people & their spiel too, even though they might be relevant?

    From Facebook today:

    Alison Weir:
    Over a week ago I emailed to the well- known blogger Philip Weiss, an interesting post written by Nahida (AKA The Exiled Palestinian).

    I posted this article because I think Atzmon discusses important points. It’s interesting that Weiss, like Kevin MacDonald, believes in the primacy of tribalism. While I find MacDonald’s scholarship useful to read, I personally dislike tribalism and oppose this worldview. I also dislike supremacism, whether it be white supremacism or Jewish supremacism. However, I don’t intend to debate these issues here. I suggest that people who wish to do so post their comments beneath the article itself at link to veteranstoday.c
om

    I’d like to know about Nahida’s post. Where is it? Also, if everybody acts at some level out of tribal interests, Phil, what, for example, is Alison Weir’s tribal interest? In the same sense you mean in your interview with Atzmon?

    • Citizen
      June 19, 2011, 10:59 am

      It looks like this might be the Nahida post Weir talks about on Facebook (see above); seems she’s just not into anti-Zionist Jews who criticize Israel, especially as part of the Solidarity movement–look nearer the bottom of the post for the specific reasons given: link to nahidaexiledpalestinian.wordpress.com

      • MHughes976
        June 19, 2011, 5:01 pm

        I don’t think Phil stands for the primacy of tribe but for the primacy of universal values in the tradition of Spinoza and Kant, which is one reason why I value Mondoweiss so much.
        I agree with Nahida about many things, but I don’t think badly of pro-Palestinian Jewish people who persist in their opinions despite being a tiny minority of their cultural group and who claim to represent that group more authentically than the vast majority. Authenticity is very difficult to prove and authenticity claims have to be assessed very carefully. I would like to think that the anti-Zio streak within Christianity is more authentic, though undeniably less influential, than the pro-Zio or look-the-other-way elements which so disgrace us.

      • Citizen
        June 19, 2011, 6:38 pm

        MHughes, don’t you think Phil spoke for himself in the interview I linked to? Question: Does Phil believe his wife is tribal in the same sense he characterized himself? Read the interview again. Again, just asking. If she’s not, then how about that principle that everybody is tribal?

  37. yourstruly
    June 19, 2011, 1:13 pm

    today’s LA Times -

    “U.S. has contacted Taliban about peace deal” + “Iran sanctions need work, some in Israel say”

    could there be a deal between the u. s. & the zionist entity israel?

    something like, “If only you’ll give us time to get out of Afghanistan, we’ll be with you in taking on Iran?”

    meanwhile the zionist entity bamboozles european nations into tightening the noose (sanctions) on iran?

    as if, without u. s. backing, europe would pay any attention to israeli war-mongering?

    but in afghanistan, won’t a u. s. pullout be an admission of defeat?”

    not if it coincides with the launching of another war

    based on?

    two days after a car bomb blew up the u. s. marine barracks in beirut, the 1983 u.s. war upon Grenada

    with a dutiful msm immediately shifting the subject of its concern from the 241 american servicepersons who had been blown to kingdom come in beirut, to the glory and heroics of a brand new war

    and the public fell for it?

    no internet back then

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