Release

Israel/Palestine
on 214 Comments

release

Palestinians celebrate the release of prisoners in Ramallah. (Photo: Oren Ziv/ Activestills).

For more photos of Palestinains welcoming the released prisoners home check out the Activestills Flickr page.

Also, Noa Yachot and Dimi Reider are live blogging Gilad Shalit’s return to Israel for 972. Some recent highlights:

14:06 Meanwhile, it seems some families have decided to take matters into their own hands. The family of Shlomo Libman, killed near the settlement of Yitzhar  in 1998, say they will pay $100,000 to anyone willing to assassinate Libman’s killers, released today as part of the prisoner swap. One of the killers has been deported to Gaza, the other will be deported to Turkey; the announcements were released in English, Hebrew, Arabic and Turkish.

13:43 Schalit is spending time with his family at the Tel Nof military base. They are soon to board a helicopter that will take them home. It’s unclear whether Schalit or his father Noam will speak to the press; we also know that the two main television channels, Channel Two and Channel Ten have signed an agreement promising to respect the family’s privacy and not try and scoop each other out for interviews once Schalit has reached home.

Earlier, Schalit was met by the IDF Chief of Staff, who saluted him, and by prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who reportedly led him to his parents and said “I brought your boy back.” Netanyahu then addressed the media, stressing his empathy with the families of the victims of Palestinian prisoners released in exchange for Shalit. He also attempted to resurrect trust between citizens and state, saying that when he served as a soldier himself, he always knew the state would bring him back if he was to be captured.

13:00 Channel 2: Schalit reaches Tel Nof base, meets with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who told him, “Bless your return to Israel,  it’s so good to have you home,” before he reunited with his parents. Crowds of press and army folks are waiting outside the base. A stage is set up for a small press conference, with about three seats, a podium and a fighter plane (?) on the lawn behind it

12:48 IDF releases video of Schalit’s first encounter with IDF (Hebrew text at start of clip reads: “Tuesday, 18.10.11: Sergeant Major Gilad Shalit in first meeting with IDF officials”)

12:31 IDF has Schalit change into IDF uniform before flying to meet his parents, thereby militarizing what until now photographed as a legitimately emotional story. To quote Dahlia Scheindlin, “What a totally justified reason for delaying his reunion with his parents – so he can change into the uniform that symbolized the reason why he was kidnapped in the first place.”

About Adam Horowitz

Adam Horowitz is Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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214 Responses

  1. annie
    October 18, 2011, 9:56 am

    what a moving photograph. “I was 1-day-old when my father was jailed”. and you can see how she looks just like her father. it makes me cry, the beauty i see in their faces. finally.

    • seafoid
      October 18, 2011, 10:30 am

      It’s a pity about the hijab. I guess when her dad was jailed there were far less muhajibaat.

      • Exiled At Home
        October 18, 2011, 10:41 am

        What’s a pity about it?

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 10:54 am

        i was just wondering the same thing exile.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 11:08 am

        The hijab is the ultimate symbol of political failure in the Middle East.
        It breaks my heart to watch old Abdel Halim clips where the women are without the veil.

        link to youtube.com

        Today political impotence is transferred into misogyny.

        I used to think it was something cultural when I lived there but then I went to live in India and I realised how f*cked up the Middle East is.

        There are 3 things that are different in india –

        -nobody wears black or grey. All the women in the Middle East are draped in the darkest colours. In India you see maroons and oranges and greens and reds.

        -the women are mostly uncovered. Even in places like Rajasthan where women have a veil it’s a filmy thing and it’s colourful. It’s not an all over body suit.

        -there is far less female obesity. Women in the Middle East are so miserable. You would be too if you had to wear a f*cking hijab because your body was a temptation to men. Wouldn’t you hate your body?

        and it makes a huge difference to the atmosphere on the streets.

      • Walid
        October 18, 2011, 11:18 am

        “It’s a pity about the hijab. I guess when her dad was jailed there were far less muhajibaat.”

        I’m with seafoid on that one.

      • noland
        October 18, 2011, 12:07 pm

        I think talking about hijab that way is no different from forcing women to wear it. In most Arab countries hijab is a choice women make, and we should respect their choice. Of course it is a crime to force any woman to wear it, but if they choose to wear it then that is a different story. If you lived in an Arab country then you know well that unless you are in al-saduia then not all women wearing hijab , and  most of the muhjabat made that choice , you do not have to agree with their choice but you have to respect it.

      • kapok
        October 18, 2011, 12:21 pm

        In Merka children are taught to chant the Hitler Oath, sorry, the Pledge of Allegiance. Of course, the blessed Constitution gives them leave to stay seated and silent, but who would dare?

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 12:58 pm

        Noland

        Have you ever seen the ads on the telegraph poles of the Delta in Egypt exhorting the ladies to be honorable and wear the hijab ?
        If it was a choice why didn’t their grandmothers wear them ?

      • noland
        October 18, 2011, 1:24 pm

        “Have you ever seen the ads on the telegraph poles of the Delta in Egypt exhorting the ladies to be honorable and wear the hijab ?
        If it was a choice why didn’t their grandmothers wear them ?”

        I think the question is : how come there is still a lot of women not wearing hijab in Egypt despite that ad ? ” based on your logic”

      • Exiled At Home
        October 18, 2011, 1:28 pm

        If it was a choice why didn’t their grandmothers wear them ?

        Um…because it was a choice… they chose not to wear them.

        Admittedly, there was less external pressure for them to wear them at that time. But a resurgence of identity exploded after throwing off the yoke of colonial rule that, I believe, led to a rejection of western culture and a greater encouragement to express Muslim identity in general, which translated into greater numbers of Muslim women wearing the hijab.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 2:38 pm

        “But a resurgence of identity exploded after throwing off the yoke of colonial rule”

        Nasser’s era wasn’t hijabi. Um Kulthoum was no muhajibah

        The region went hijabi when the neoliberals took over after they crushed Nasser.

        And there has been no music to beat Um K in the era of the muhajibaat. It makes me really sad to think how fucked Egypt is. The hijab is a big part of that.

      • Taxi
        October 18, 2011, 3:52 pm

        I’m seeing numerous young moslem girls in the villages of south of lebanon wearing fancy shamncy multi-colored hijabs with sleaved but tight body-defining clothing, cranked-up high heals, all kindsa lipstick colors, dark and smokey eye make-up and perfect eyebrows. They walk around in twos and threes. Wow they make one’s eyesballs pop right out.

      • Walid
        October 19, 2011, 4:14 am

        “I think the question is : how come there is still a lot of women not wearing hijab in Egypt despite that ad ?”

        There aren’t that many and if you exclude the 20% Christian population that does not cover its head, it’s hard finding any one that doesn’t have at least the head covered. I don’t knock the hijab but I have a right to not like it, especially when worn in western countries.

        In Cairo, I got more stares because of my shorts than my wife got because her head was uncovered.

      • seafoid
        October 19, 2011, 4:54 am

        “In Cairo, I got more stares because of my shorts than my wife got because her head was uncovered”

        My wife looks Mediterranean and the last time we were in Alex walking the Corniche she was insulted the length of the walk by local masris shouting “haram” because

        a ) she wasn’t wearing a “higab” and
        b) she was consorting with an obvious foreigner

        what a joke. It got really funny when the foreigner walking with her started shouting back bil masri. I find asking “hadritak ahlawi willa zamalkawi” defuses the tensest encounters in Egypt.

      • noland
        October 19, 2011, 1:29 pm

        Is there a study With the percentage of Moslem women in Cairo who are not wearing hijab ?

      • Exiled At Home
        October 18, 2011, 1:14 pm

        The hijab is both an expression of identity and a symbol of modesty; outside of the mosque it is rarely forced upon Muslim women. Most choose to wear it once they believe they are living their life in accordance with Islamic teaching. The Quranic verses pertaining to this tradition all reference modesty, and thus, it is truly a matter of interpretation as to whether the hijab is an explicit requirement or merely in the spirit of modesty.

        What’s more, seafoid, you contradict yourself by stating that you used to think it was merely a culture tradition until you went to India and saw more vibrant, colorful displays of the hijab. Is that not evidence that the culture of the Middle East varies in terms of dress and style from other Muslim communities?

        The Muslim communities of the Middle East are, by and large, actually quite more liberal, or shall I say less-orthodox than are American Muslim communities, especially in terms of the requirements of the male. There are many Quranic references that stipulate the requirements of men in terms of modesty. What you see as religious misogynism is really a cultural phenomenon of the region that predates Islam, not religiously sanctioned male chauvinism as you seem to suggest.

        I would agree, though, that I object to the concept of the hijab as a means of quelling male desires and urges. We are all granted free-will, and with free-will comes the ability of self-control. I therefore do not see the hijab as something that should be required of women so as to control men, but rather as a personal expression of modesty that should be matched by the modesty of action and thought on the part of men. I would not say that my interpretation conforms to the interpretations of the entire Muslim world; but I would say that there is great variance in the understanding of what the hijab represents and of what is also required of men. See Sura Luqman, for example.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 1:29 pm

        Exiled at home

        Islam is going through a really dark period and the hijabisation of the nisaa’ is testament to this. Women can be “modest” without draping themselves in sackcloth- And anyway why does it have to be the women being modest ? Does it help the economy? Has it led to a flourishing of film and literature? Has the musical output of the region blossomed or is it stuck in a 30 year rut?

        It reminds me of the delayed French reaction to the catastrophe of defeat to Germany in WW2.

        Les femmes tondues . The shaved women.

        link to schule-bw.de

        Never mind the men like the head of L’Oreal who funded the Nazis . Target the women. Make the men feel good about themselves.

      • Exiled At Home
        October 18, 2011, 1:48 pm

        Women can be “modest” without draping themselves in sackcloth- And anyway why does it have to be the women being modest ?

        Is that not what I just addressed when I wrote: “I therefore do not see the hijab as something that should be required of women so as to control men, but rather as a personal expression of modesty that should be matched by the modesty of action and thought on the part of men.” This is the American Islamic viewpoint, and it is critical of the cultural inequities of the Middle East that conflict with the Quranic, religious emphasis on a shared commitment to modesty between men and women.

      • kalithea
        October 18, 2011, 1:36 pm

        Can’t you just defend Palestinians against Israeli oppression and “live and let live” and stop judging their personal beliefs???

      • pabelmont
        October 19, 2011, 4:45 pm

        There are layers and layers of oppression, like an onion. Where, as here, the MAJOR OPPRESSION comes from Israel, it seems a bit off base to be looking closely at more minor oppressions.

        And then, of course, although in some cases some men and religious leaders and women too may (for all I know) be oppressing girls and women on the modesty question, it may also be (in other cases) that girls women are choosing hijab freely, as ISLAM BECOMES MORE OF A RELIEF AS ISRAELI OPPRESSION DEEPENS AND THE WORLD’S DO-NOTHING STANCE PERSISTS.

      • RoHa
        October 18, 2011, 8:11 pm

        Something I find both surprising and depressing is the large number of Malay and Indonesian women students I see wearing hijabs right here in Australia. These are educated women studying in a country where the usual garb for young females is a tank top and tiny shorts.

        The hijab isn’t part of Malay/Indonesian tradition, and when I was an undergraduate I never saw a Malay or Indonesian wearing one. The students were believing Muslims, but outside the mosque they wore mini-skirts.

      • Exiled At Home
        October 18, 2011, 10:31 pm

        Ah, yes, how very depressing. Far too few girls in tank tops and booty shorts…

        Do you hear yourself? While I doubt I would ever feel compelled to wear the hijab if I were a woman, since when did a growing trend of modesty become depressing?

      • RoHa
        October 19, 2011, 12:54 am

        ” since when did a growing trend of modesty become depressing?”

        If I thought it was a freely-chosen growing trend of modesty, I would not mind so much. (Yes, I am a dirty old man, so I would mind a little. But not much. There are plenty of other girls in sufficiently exiguous garb to justify the expense of new glasses.)

        I would expect such a trend among Malays and Indonesians to be one of trousers or longer skirts, and high-necked blouses. But to see them adopting the hijab suggests that they are being pressured into wearing a Middle Eastern garment by the religious leaders who are trying to impose Middle Eastern versions of religious law.

        As we all know, religious law is devised by miserable old men who never had any fun and don’t want anyone else to have any. They are always particularly cruel to women.

        So for the sake of the women involved, I feel depressed.

      • tree
        October 19, 2011, 4:42 am

        So for the sake of the women involved, I feel depressed.

        Then for the sake of the women, also feel depressed for those young girls who feel pressured into wearing the tank tops and tiny shorts. It always peeves me that men can’t figure out that women can be, and in the West often are, pressured into immodesty just as much as they are pressured into modesty. You may personally enjoy one more than the other, but that doesn’t mean that Western women aren’t often pressured into attempting to fit a male fantasy.

      • seafoid
        October 19, 2011, 5:05 am

        Apparently this retreat into ultra conservative Islam is causing problems in Malaysia with the other communities.

        It’s all driven by Saudi funding of crazy Saudi theology. Very sad to see this bank rolled ideology take over from far more tolerant strains of Islam such as Sufism.

      • AhVee
        October 19, 2011, 8:19 am

        I’m with you on this one seafoid. I find it a pity equally to see more covered women nowadays. I have no problem whatsoever with women making use of their right as autonomous people to chose whether or whether not to wear the hijab, burka or whatever else they wish, and live whatever way they wish, as long as their freedoms don’t breach those of other people.

        Forgive me for doubting however that the Saudi-funded Islamic resurgence and the resulting impression of Saudi Arabia’s interpretation of Islam and cultural ideologies throughout the ME doesn’t have anything to do with the fact that a lot more women all over the ME are covered, and are being pressured to cover up and live more traditional lives, when compared to the way it was prior to the late 1970′s, to the extent of risking rejection from their community if they don’t comply. Rejecting the fact that this is a reality and hiding behind the rose-tinted western view that more women are simply “chosing” to cover up nowadays and live more traditionally, and that chosing a completely different dress and lifestyle would be equally encouraged if the woman wanted it is plain out naive, though may certainly apply in some cases. They are under far more pressure to live a certain kind of life nowadays. Ask any ME progressive who’s been around long enough to observe the trend of an increasingly traditional / conservative cultural conditioning. It’s not a good thing for all involved, including men. As one notable European Muslim feminist (whose name I have since tragically forgotten) once noted You can’t oppress women without oppressing yourselves though it.

        I have discussions with people on occasion who believe that what is happening is down to the fact that Islam needs a reform, and people in the ME have always been too pious to modernise it. While really, prior to the 1970′s, there was no urgent need for a reform in the first place. It’s not Islam, It’s the Saudi brand of Islamic ideology, and their success in pushing it out into almost every crevice of the ME.

        Tangentially, I also criticise this when it happens in traditional Jewish families and communities, where covering up a women’s hair and most of her skin trespasses being encouraged and results in harassment and stigmatisation when the woman refuses to adhere to this.

      • seafoid
        October 19, 2011, 10:04 am

        All religious fundamentalists are the same. They ALWAYS target women.

      • noland
        October 19, 2011, 1:36 pm

        What really disturbs me about this discussion is that I am afraid we are going to see a woman wearing hijab and then automatically assume that this woman is oppressed or not strong enough to make her own choice which so not fair to these women being stereotyped that way.

  2. seafoid
    October 18, 2011, 10:29 am

    It was nice to see Shalit in a Gaza training top. He looked like a Ghazzawi.

  3. seafoid
    October 18, 2011, 10:36 am

    My Israeli colleague burst into the office in an emotionally charged state. He is not eee but he said “we value life and they value death”. What a meme that is. “We must kill them” and then he searched from the English translation from the Hebrew for extrajudicial assassination. The war setting was what struck me. Terrorists, murder, dead children, future killing all got namechecked. It was quite the monologue . I guess Israelis like him will have real difficulties visualising peace. I wondered what he would say if I asked “how are you going to deal with mass nonviolent civil disobedience ? ” I just smiled .

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 18, 2011, 10:47 am

      Anyone who says, “We value life and they value death” should be hospitalized. Anyone who says that and then advocates killing people should be committed.

      • hophmi
        October 18, 2011, 11:12 am

        “Anyone who says, “We value life and they value death” should be hospitalized. Anyone who says that and then advocates killing people should be committed.”

        The truth hurts. Apparently, you don’t accept Hamas at their word.

        link to youtube.com

        “We desire death like you desire life.”

        If Hamas valued life, they’d trade 1 for 1, straight up.

        Feel free to point out another country that freed murderers with blood on their hands just to redeem a captive soldier.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 11:41 am

        hophmi, memri videos shouldn’t be allowed on this site. there should be a mod policy to delete them.

      • DBG
        October 18, 2011, 11:43 am

        annie, right after you prove that the translation in that video is incorrect.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 18, 2011, 11:47 am

        “The truth hurts. Apparently, you don’t accept Hamas at their word. ”

        LMAO. Oh, that’s right. You’re one of those shallow thinkers who believes that anyone who doesn’t agree with your little apartheid state must be a fan of Hamas.

        (This is not to mention the fact that you apparently can’t read, as there is a clear difference between saying “They value death and we value life” and “We desire death like you desire life.” To think they are the same shows that you have the reading comprehension skills of a six year old.)

        “If Hamas valued life, they’d trade 1 for 1, straight up.”

        That doesn’t even make any sense on its own terms. Hamas made Israel look like suckers. They should continue to do so. They got what they wanted, for the most part, for next to nothing. And they helped improve the lives of thousands of Palestinians, saving them from Israeli injustice. That’s loving life.

        “Feel free to point out another country that freed murderers with blood on their hands just to redeem a captive soldier.”

        Again, that just shows (1) that Israelis are suckers, and/or (2) that they have no commitment to justice. If they really believed that these were “murderers with blood on their hands” and not innocent people framed for crimes, people who were injustly imprisoned based on their ethnicity, political prisoners, freedom fighters, etc., then justice would demand that they reject the deal. I guess that brings up possibility (3) that Israel knew that these weren’t murderers at all but were people being held unjustly.

        And, really, given the number of Israelis with blood on their hands (hell, it’d be probably easier to count then number who don’t,) to say that they “love life” is a joke. This is a society that worships death, either in glorying the killing of Arabs (innocent or not) or in lamenting the death of Israelis (guilty or not).

      • Walid
        October 18, 2011, 12:02 pm

        “Feel free to point out another country that freed murderers with blood on their hands just to redeem a captive soldier.”

        Here we go again with the melodramatic “blood on their hands” Biblical jargon. You guys are your own spooks. Don’t you get tired of repeating that stuff day day after day?

      • Chu
        October 18, 2011, 12:18 pm

        “If Hamas valued life, they’d trade 1 for 1, straight up.”
        What???
        -Israel was involved in that trade as well. duh…

      • pjdude
        October 18, 2011, 12:22 pm

        gilad was a murder. and Israel released captive soldiers. the fact you argee with the idea that palestinians need to be killed so you can steal their land doesn’t make Israeli actions toward noble and palestinian actions against it ignoble.

      • hophmi
        October 18, 2011, 12:46 pm

        “hophmi, memri videos shouldn’t be allowed on this site. there should be a mod policy to delete them.”

        Why? Because they’re not dedicated to promoting the Palestinian cause?

      • hophmi
        October 18, 2011, 12:52 pm

        “You’re one of those shallow thinkers who believes that anyone who doesn’t agree with your little apartheid state must be a fan of Hamas. ”

        No, I believe people who graft their own sense of justice and ethics onto Hamas and ignore what they actually say are simply naive.

        “(This is not to mention the fact that you apparently can’t read, as there is a clear difference between saying “They value death and we value life” and “We desire death like you desire life.””

        Really? Explain the big difference.

        “Hamas made Israel look like suckers.”

        Nah, Hamas just takes advantage of a country that believes in redeeming its soldiers no matter what the cost. In the end, most of these people were getting out anyway. In reality, all this will do is hurt the Palestinians in Gaza, who will now have to deal with criminals and crazies who will oppress them as the rest of Hamas does.

        “If they really believed that these were “murderers with blood on their hands” and not innocent people framed for crimes, people who were injustly imprisoned based on their ethnicity, political prisoners, freedom fighters, etc., then justice would demand that they reject the deal.”

        Please. Besides this being a ridiculous self-serving argument, this is not the first prisoner swap. Hamas has no trouble admitting the culpability of these people; WHY THE HELL DO YOU? These are not people who were “framed.” Israel would rather have its soldiers home than keep scum in jail.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 1:13 pm

        Why? Because they’re not dedicated to promoting the Palestinian cause?

        no, because they have been exposed as liars and propagandists using false translations. and why should this site host crap that is promoted on gellars site and other islamophobic hate sites? anyone can go to those sites to watch memri. that is my opinion, it shouldn’t be hosted here.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 18, 2011, 1:48 pm

        “No, I believe people who graft their own sense of justice and ethics onto Hamas and ignore what they actually say are simply naive.”

        LOL. And wham! You walk right into the same glass door. You really need to address your Hamas obsession. LOL.

        “Really? Explain the big difference. “

        No. I don’t have time for remedial English and elementary logic.

        “Nah, Hamas just takes advantage of a country that believes in redeeming its soldiers no matter what the cost.”

        Yeah, that’s why Israel took five years to do it. Because poor Israel, poor, poor little flower, was the victim once again.

        “In reality, all this will do is hurt the Palestinians in Gaza,”

        LMAO. That would explain all the jubilation in Gaza, while the Zios are reduced to advertising for hit men. Hey, maybe they can hire Obama’s mysterious drug cartel. LOL.

        “Please. Besides this being a ridiculous self-serving argument,”

        Nonsense. Every Palestinians “convicted” by an Israeli court enjoys, by any reasonable person, a rebuttable presumption of innocence. Your opinion, no doubt, will differ, but I really don’t care what you think, so, all good.

        “Hamas has no trouble admitting the culpability of these people; WHY THE HELL DO YOU?”

        Geez, I can’t think of any reason why Hamas might wish their fighters to appear to be blood-thirsty killers in the fight against Israelis. None. None whatsoever. Oh, and in other news, the US Marine Corp are devil dogs. When someone joins the Marines, he literally is transmogrified into a canine from Hades. True story.

        “These are not people who were ‘framed.’”

        Given that they were “convicted” by Israelis, being “framed” is no less likely than any other answer.

        “Israel would rather have its soldiers home than keep scum in jail.”

        LOL. No Israel keeps its scum in the PM’s residence, the FM’s office and whatever dung heap they stuck Sharon’s comatose ass.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 4:15 pm

        My Israeli collague who burst into the room needing to talk to someone about the treachery of Netanyahu brought up the 2 mustarbeen who were lynched in Ramallah and raised his hands in the air to indicate what the guy in the window did with the famous dam fi yadhu and I almost told him I was in Ramallah when the thing happened and I saw one of the mustarbeen being dragged down the street.

      • RoHa
        October 18, 2011, 8:21 pm

        “a country that believes in redeeming its soldiers no matter what the cost.”

        After five years of trying to avoid negotiations. That shows great concern for his well-being.

      • Donald
        October 19, 2011, 7:40 am

        “If Hamas valued life, they’d trade 1 for 1, straight up.”

        This is utterly moronic. Israel has the power to arrest thousands of Palestinians, some of them murderers of civilians and some “guilty” of activism. The trials are often unfair–inherently unfair, given the occupation.

        Palestinians do not have the ability to arrest Israeli war criminals–the best they can do in this line is snatch some random Israeli soldier who might or might not be a war criminal. Under those circumstances any sane Palestinian negotiator would try to obtain as many prisoners as possible in exchange for the one they do hold. To argue that they should trade 1 for 1 is so stupid I have trouble believing you typed it in good faith.

      • Shingo
        October 19, 2011, 8:16 am

        If Hamas valued life, they’d trade 1 for 1, straight up.

        That’s a bit like saying that if Israel valued life, they’d kill 1 for 1, straight up in retaliation for rockets and suicide attacks.

      • eGuard
        October 19, 2011, 8:42 am

        Hophmi: point out another country that freed murderers with blood on their hands just to redeem a captive soldier

        Just about every war ends with an exchange of POWs in the closing deal. Civilians and occupied land too, they get a separate paragraph. Now how many days are you in the peace-making business, hophmi?

      • Chaos4700
        October 21, 2011, 9:12 am

        If Israel is the 21st century Nazi Germany, that makes Israel’s supporters in the US 21st century Holocaust deniers. And hophmi and DBG are living proof of that, spreading anti-Arab hate on Mondoweiss.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 11:17 am

        I know, Woody but I find the Israeli rant mesmerising. I had it a few years ago with the Israeli parents of a friend of our son. He was at our place to collect his kid and something set him off on a Gaza riff.
        Incredible. The look in his eyes.

        And also the casual assumption that I share those values. Like a Japanese bigot expecting me to hate the burakamin too.

      • Chu
        October 18, 2011, 11:40 am

        I value the dead, as much as I value the living.

      • dumvitaestspesest
        October 18, 2011, 1:36 pm

        I guess those words “we value life and ….”coming out of a mouth of Israeli sound as convincing as coming from a SS officer.
        Another sad, pathetic example how brain washed, so called normal people, may become.
        They will twist the whole reality just to prove their point.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 5:28 pm

        We value life while bombing non Jews with white phosphorous.

    • braciole
      October 18, 2011, 11:01 am

      After the last exchange between Hezbollah and Israel, Pammycakes made the point that the exchanges were always one-sided, many Hezbollah/Hamas for one or two Israelis and that this supported the view that Israelis valued life more than Palestinians overlooking the fact that the Israelis have kidnapped thousands of civilians as “bargaining chips” while Hezbollah and Hamas are lucky to capture one or two soldiers.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 11:08 am

        Pammycakes? who’s that?

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 18, 2011, 11:10 am

        Pam Geller.

      • Chu
        October 18, 2011, 11:17 am

        pam the neo-bolshevik

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 11:42 am

        whoops! of course, where’s my brain today.

    • pabelmont
      October 19, 2011, 4:54 pm

      Assuming that some Gazans “value death” in the sense of killing Israelis (or killing themselves whilst killing Israelis), well, protect yourselves, sure, BUT THE OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF KILLING IS BEING DONE WITH THE UTMOST RELISH AND PLEASURE AND DELIGHT BY ISRAELIS, and I am unable to doubt that these Israelis “value death” as much as anyone. think of the sharpshooters who used to kill or wound Palestinian kids who were throwing rocks from so far away they’d never even hit much less injure an Israeli soldier. think if Rabin’s order — so thoroughly carried out — to break their bones. If anyone doubts that Israelis worship death (for non-Jews), think again.

      However, if Israelis merely worship extreme pain and persecution and maiming (rather than death), well EXCUUUUUUUUSE ME.

  4. Woody Tanaka
    October 18, 2011, 10:37 am

    The family of Shlomo Libman, killed near the settlement of Yitzhar in 1998, say they will pay $100,000 to anyone willing to assassinate Libman’s killers, released today as part of the prisoner swap.

    In any civilized state, this is a crime. Will israel prosecute??

    • American
      October 18, 2011, 10:56 am

      “The family of Shlomo Libman, killed near the settlement of Yitzhar in 1998, say they will pay $100,000 to anyone willing to assassinate Libman’s killers, released today as part of the prisoner swap”

      Yep…Murder for hire. A private citizen advertises for murder- publicaly is there another country besides Israel where a citizen could do this?

      • eee
        October 18, 2011, 11:07 am

        Of course there is, Taxi keeps calling for murder of Israelis by their neighbors. She is constantly advocating a regional war.

      • Charon
        October 18, 2011, 12:35 pm

        eee, technically when people are killed while ‘at war’ they are considered casualties of war if they are soldiers and collateral damage if they are civilians. Not murders. That’s why Israel is in a constant state of war, to legalize murdering.

        Which is why you people wouldn’t think twice about somebody publicly announcing they will pay for an assassination. No country in the world other than Israel would ever do such a thing. Only in Israel where it is a crime to so much as scratch a Zionist and killing Palestinians is a national pastime.

      • Taxi
        October 18, 2011, 5:13 pm

        eee,

        I went to the Fatima Gate yesterday and wagged a middle finger at your idf pals in their markavas some 15 feet away across two sets of barbed wires. There was no international incident. No one was hurt.

        True story :=))

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 6:01 pm

        taxi! i wanna be there w/you in lebanon. i am dying to go to hezbollah theme park. i bet it beats the heck out of disneyland. there are other palces i want to go too, but the touristie stuff can be..unique. it’s not like i’ll ever get to visit a theme park like that in the US, to say the least.

      • dumvitaestspesest
        October 18, 2011, 9:52 pm

        Did they wave back??
        I mean using the “middle finger” as an “international ” sign of
        “I fuc*en love you only sooo much” :)

      • Taxi
        October 19, 2011, 3:02 am

        annie, everywhere you go down south and south-east of lebanon, you see road signs that give you the distance and direction of local lebanese villages AS WELL AS THE DIRECTION AND DISTANCE TO PALESTINE! It’s really fun and heart-warming. I even went to Bint J’bail, entered the potters shop to buy some local pottery and jokingly asked the potter if he knew of Robert Werdine’s family – the potter looked mystified and said “no werdines around these mountains”.

        My favorite foto of that day is of me posing happy in front of a sign that read: 6 Kilometers to Palestine.

        @dumvitaestspesest (what a cool mouthful!),
        The idf are too depressed by their cowardice in south lebanon to “wave back” – they just watch poo-faced and impotent, photographing you and scanning you with their hi-tec equipment hidden in their silly vanquish-able markavas.

        Les miserables have not been trained to say ‘I love you goy’. Not yet anyway :-)

      • Walid
        October 19, 2011, 3:59 am

        “My favorite foto of that day is of me posing happy in front of a sign that read: 6 Kilometers to Palestine.”

        Taxi, those signs were put up just before the Nakba Day commemoration at Maroun al-Ras, just above Bint Jbail. You were 2 miles from the spot where the Palestinians were butchered this year. Hope you made it up the hill (across from Restaurant Tahrir) and to the Iran Park to watch the IDF cowards below nervously going back and forth in their Merkavas. Did you notice that you don’t see many young men anywhere but mostly only children, women and old men? Don’t miss Hizbullah’s war museum at Mleeta.

      • Walid
        October 19, 2011, 4:04 am

        “I went to the Fatima Gate yesterday and wagged a middle finger at your idf pals in their markavas some 15 feet away across two sets of barbed wires.”

        Did you throw a token stone?

      • Taxi
        October 19, 2011, 6:15 am

        “Did you throw a token stone?”

        Walid I wanted to stick my bare behind outta the car window and moon them but my lebanese friends stopped me and said that my arse is too cute and prefect and should not be seen by evil eyes :-)

        Yes I did drive past the Iran Garden in Maroun al-Ras and yessssss I did see the cowardly idf parading their toy-like markavas up and down the hill between the two barbed wires. I hated it that they’re growing apple trees on lebanese hills used as military buffer by the idf – the frigging apple thieves! I did not throw stones as we had no time to stop at dusk, but I’m going back there again soon – trying to get a press-pass through a lebanese journalist friend so I can legally use my film equipment that I brought with me. It was pointed out to me: the steep green hill where this year’s butchering took place on Nakba day. I also found it most amusing that right on top of that hill, a row of new and very large stone-thick multi-story homes were built right on the edge in defiance of israeli presence. I also noted with happiness that the Lebanese army check points in that neck of the woods all had ‘resistance’ inspired banners fluttering over them in the wind. I was told by my lebanese companions that the hizb men are plenty and well hidden and ready 24/7 and that only children, women, UN forces and the Lebanse army are present on the streets – yes this I duly noted.

        Mleeta is on my list of places to visit – very exciting I have so much to look forward to experiencing while in lebanon – I’m here for another month, maybe even longer. Did I mention I helped my southern lebanese friends pick and press their ancient olive groves? Beautiful experience.

        Soon as I get my press-pass, hopefully in about a week, I will head back to Maroun al-Ras with more freedom to film and with more time in hand – and I promise you I’ll be throwing more than just a single token stone at the thieving buggers!

        But apart from the idf bullshit presence, I must say I was awestruck by the unbelievable beauty of the landscape. Northern Galilee sure is breathtaking and poetic. Your country is stunning Walid! And every time I see a natural beauty spot in lebanon (often!) I loathe the racist thug israelis more – to think that they care not about TRUE BEAUTY and aim to destroy it’s very soul through and through!

        I don’t want the bastard idf to go home – I want them to go to hell.

      • Chaos4700
        October 21, 2011, 9:15 am

        To bad for eee, there’s some beautiful places in his real homeland in Eastern Europe too. But people who only look at land as lebensraum can’t be bothered to stop and see the beauty they’re destroying. It was the same for Nazi Germany and it is the same for Israel.

    • Chu
      October 18, 2011, 11:10 am

      The settlements are Israel’s idea of the American Wild West.

      They need to prove they are tougher than the world.
      Is this the post WWII logic of Zionism?

      Which is why they hate the UN, but hide behind the guns
      of the US when their occupation is called into question.

      And the US defends it because it’s their duty to protect Israel.
      (is that written in the Constitution?)

      • pabelmont
        October 19, 2011, 5:02 pm

        It’s written in ink stronger than the Constitution. The “C” can be re-written by the S/C, who professed, for example, to discover in it that corporations are persons (for free speech), when corporations are not mentioned in the text of the “C”, but NO-ONE can mess with USA’s pro-Israelism, no-botty!

    • ritzl
      October 18, 2011, 12:32 pm

      They would if Palestinian survivors of the Israeli death machinery made the offer. If that happened it would be touted as “terrorism” and an example of the violence intrinsic to the generic “Oriental”/Arab view of the world.

      I’m not sure why Palestinian survivors don’t do this, but I think the story there is that it shows the opposite of “intrinsically violent.”

  5. Walid
    October 18, 2011, 12:15 pm

    A repeat performance by released Israeli prisoner Shalit. The first time in 2004, it was the released Elhanan Tannebaum that said he had been treated well by his captors; from Manar TV:

    Shalit Hopes Palestinian Prisoners Return Home, Says Hamas Treated Him Well

    Local Editor

    The Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit said in his first interview after his release that the long prison experience that he passed through made him hope that all the Palestinian detainees held in Israeli prisons get freed so that they would all return to their families.

    In an interview with the Egyptian television before taking off to the occupied territories, Shalit said “I will be very happy if they all get freed, so that they could return to their families and to their land.”

    The Israeli soldier who was captured by the Islamic Resistance Movement in Gaza in 2006 said that Hamas has treated him in a good way, knowing that the movement had been making efforts to complete an exchange deal with the Zionist part since his captivity.

    Moreover, he responded to a question about his plans for the future saying that he “hoped that this swap deal would help achieve peace between the Israeli and the Palestinian side, and that it would strengthen cooperation between the two parts.”

    Shalit further told the Egyptian interviewer that he hoped the released Palestinian prisoners wouldn’t go back to fighting Israel, knowing that he will be received by the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and will reportedly put on the Israeli military suit as soon as he arrives to occupied Palestine.

    link to almanar.com.lb

    • seafoid
      October 18, 2011, 12:36 pm

      “The Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit said in his first interview after his release that the long prison experience that he passed through made him hope that all the Palestinian detainees held in Israeli prisons get freed so that they would all return to their families.”

      Very off message. He will have to be reeducated.

      But dehumanizing the victim makes things simpler
      It’s like breathing with a respirator
      It eases the conscience of even the most conscious
      and calculating violator
      Words can reduce a person to an object,
      something more easy to hate
      An inanimate entity, completely disposable,
      no problem to obliterate

      link to lyrics.astraweb.com..hypocrisy_is_the_greatest_luxury..language_of_violence.html

    • dimadok
      October 18, 2011, 1:33 pm

      Shahira Amin, the Eyptian TV presenter who did the first interview with Gilad Shalit, said on the BBC World Service’s World Have Your Say: “I asked to do the interview with my programme and the minister said it would be arranged. I met with intelligence officials yesterday and they said it would happen but didn’t know if [the interview] would go ahead until the last minute. I wasn’t aware anyone had actually forced Shalit into doing this.”
      link to bbc.co.uk
      Update 1220

      I hope that it satisfies some sort of vengeance, cruel and stupid

      • DBG
        October 18, 2011, 1:39 pm

        Good Op-Ed on the Shalit ‘interview’

        link to ynetnews.com

      • dimadok
        October 18, 2011, 2:16 pm

        I saw that-but refrained to use it here, since it is the major NO-NO to cite the Zionist sites. It gets allergic responses and makes people sick, and I would like to avoid that….

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 2:17 pm

        do you relish in bringing us this unmitigated garbage?

        The above statements should be qualified with two notes: Firstly, not all Arabs are like this. It is not the Arab “race” that is flawed, but rather, Arab culture and society which are mired in a cesspool of primitivism and barbarity.

        your contributions here are regularly mired by racism.

      • DBG
        October 18, 2011, 2:24 pm

        your contributions here are regularly mired by racism.

        just trying to fit in annie :)

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 2:30 pm

        i’m glad the egyptians interviewed him. i liked seeing him smile for the first time when they asked about palestinian prisoners and he said he hoped they were all freed and could go back to their families. it warmed my heart tnat he would say that and smile saying he hoped there was peace. no one would have asked him that question about palestinian prisoners in israel, i doubt it anyway.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 2:34 pm

        just trying to fit in annie :)

        well you’re not succeeding yonira as you stick out like a sore thumb.

      • DBG
        October 18, 2011, 2:37 pm

        it made some good points regarding the interview, i probably agree with Annie’s comment below, but understand it was an emotional piece to write.

        The buzz on twitter is that the translation in the interview is pretty inaccurate.

      • DBG
        October 18, 2011, 2:41 pm

        well you’re not succeeding yonira as you stick out like a sore thumb.

        yonira? you mean the guy who stopped posting 5 days before I started, but really didn’t? I can understand why you believe it though annie, we do address people using their names, that is a clear give away, LOL :)

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 3:06 pm

        “Shalit deal proves that Israel not even close to matching Arab barbarity, heartlessness”

        Thanks Yoni. That means a lot. The internal Israeli conversation straight from the Yishuv. Nobody buys it.

        Barbarity is a child in Gaza killed by white phosphorous. Heartlessness is destroying the school she would have gone to if she had lived.
        And then there is this

      • biorabbi
        October 18, 2011, 3:09 pm

        I’m sure the Israeli press will be all over his back to interview him as well. I think and hope that Gilad will simply be allowed to reenter society. He has apparently had little human contact, and no sunlight(probably to avoid detection), so the interviews are strained. I also hope the released Palestinian prisoners should be able to go about their business, reenter society as they wish.

        Other than that, I believe Gilad handled the Egyptian interview quite well.

        Annie, I do disagree with your stance on Memri videos. If the translations are bad, or words taken out of context, or timing, ect… then that’s objectionable. My problem with sites like MEMRI is they don’t lead anywhere. It’s like talking to rabbi who sanctions killing PM Rabin. Yea, these videos exist, but where do they lead? On the otherhand, I absolutely hate and detest banning people for their ideas, even if hate filled.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 3:18 pm

        and the smile? was that inaccurate too?

        yoni, could you please link to ‘buzz on twitter’? i think the interview was recorded live and it should be easy to confirm whether his answers were not interpreted correctly. i can definitely see a reason why his sentiments wrt palestinian prisoners would be damaging to the zio gov narrative. embarrassing to say the least.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 3:24 pm

        On the otherhand, I absolutely hate and detest banning people for their ideas, even if hate filled.

        what if there ideas include making sexist comments about other posters?

        not making any accusation that is the case i am just wondering why, on a private site, phil and adam should not be able to ban anyone they want anytime?

        also, we all know israel and the lobby hire professional trolls. there is no reason they should have the same access to the site by hiding their professional role. they are definitely here as we all know. also, if someone has been banned before and comes back and is outed i think they should be banned. we don’t need recycled banned hasbrats on the site. that’s just my personal opinion.

      • biorabbi
        October 18, 2011, 3:40 pm

        Annie, you may be right about the smile.

        On the other hand, his father said today he doesn’t like to be around lots of people as would be expected to be the nature of social isolation for many years. It appeared to be he was almost hyperventilating, gasping for air in between answers. But it would be normal, on the otherhand, to feel wild and happy being free, so it’s hard to discern his inner state. I do believe he answered from the heart. It’s news. I find it hard to criticize Egyptian TV, while at the same time having my attention glued to the screen. It appears there is a double standard to on the one hand blast Egyptian TV while at the same time watching it!

        Perhaps both Hamas and Netanyahu acted because of the same political rationale: improving their faltering popularity. But, I’m very, very glad this deal was done. The Egyptians acted in a professional manner, obviously facilitating the actual transfer, choreographed down to the minute. Hamas and Israel lived up to their parts of the bargain to date.

      • DBG
        October 18, 2011, 3:45 pm

        here is a good start annie:

        link to cifwatch.com

      • es1982
        October 18, 2011, 4:22 pm

        Annie:

        i’m glad the egyptians interviewed him. i liked seeing him smile for the first time when they asked about palestinian prisoners and he said he hoped they were all freed and could go back to their families.

        Notice that he said he’d like the Palestinian prisoners to be freed if they won’t continue fighting Israel and it will be part of a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians.

        As for the smile – who knows what it meant. He could have been thinking “I just got out of captivity and haven’t even returned to my country yet and you’re already asking me political questions? Seriously?”

        I think his response to the question was excellent, as was how he handled the whole interview. It was remarkable, especially considering the circumstances. But I also think putting him in that situation against his will was abusive and unethical on the journalist’s part.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 4:26 pm

        She did a good interview. But he will never be the same soldier. I think it shows the pointlessness of militant Judaism.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 4:44 pm

        But I also think putting him in that situation against his will was abusive and unethical on the journalist’s part.

        against his will? do you have any links..i’d be interested in reading about that.

        Notice that he said he’d like the Palestinian prisoners to be freed if they won’t continue fighting Israel and it will be part of a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians.

        i guess i will have to watch it again.

        As for the smile – who knows what it meant. He could have been thinking “I just got out of captivity and haven’t even returned to my country yet and you’re already asking me political questions? Seriously?”

        it was a sustained smile. perhaps i am just not as cynical as you. it looked sincere.

      • Taxi
        October 18, 2011, 4:49 pm

        Did you see how awkward/revolted shalit was when he hugged that bulky hammy natanyahu? Hands down it will be voted by shalit and his family as the worst moment of his ceremonial freedom.

      • es1982
        October 18, 2011, 5:11 pm

        “against his will? do you have any links..i’d be interested in reading about that.”

        At worst it was forced, at best it was exploitation of a man in a very sensitive situation. The guy is in the middle of being released from five years of captivity and is still on foreign soil. I wouldn’t think that he’d like to sit down for an interview, instead of crossing over to Israel and/or speaking with his family. In the interview itself he says seeing so many people after being in isolation is hard on him – another indication that he doesn’t really want to be interviewed. Neither is he expected to give any more interviews anytime soon.

      • MRW
        October 18, 2011, 5:18 pm

        But I also think putting him in that situation against his will was abusive and unethical on the journalist’s part.

        This was exactly what was reported by the Israeli blogger on BBC live just before Netanyahu made his remarks. It’s the Israeli talking point. Dana, the blogger, said Israel was furious that the Egyptian journalist interviewed him and that it was “abusive” and “unethical.” I heard it in real time.

        IN OTHER WORDS, annie, this was uttered before anyone in Israel had a chance to talk to Shalit and BEFORE Netanyahu took Shalit to his father.

      • Cliff
        October 18, 2011, 5:23 pm

        It doesn’t matter who DBG is, he’s unremarkable. Just more Zionist noise.

        WonderingJew, jlddlel, are the only intelligent Zionists here who don’t engage regularly in intellectual dishonesty. Whether it’s hohpmi saying Palestinians supported hitler or literally anything eee says.

      • seafoid
        October 18, 2011, 5:24 pm

        I like your style, Taxi. Netanyahu is such a clown.

      • es1982
        October 18, 2011, 5:28 pm

        According to AP:

        “Hamas militants were in the area as the interview was being set up. One of them stood behind Schalit’s chair, wearing a black face mask, a green headband of the Qassam brigades – Hamas’ military wing – and filming with a video camera in his hand.”

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 5:56 pm

        egypt did a thing or two to get him out over the years and years, it was a 10 minute payback. they wanted the first interview..get over it.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 5:59 pm

        MRW, i just posted that biocom leaked email w/the ceo bragging about contacting all the msm and adjusting their narrative. i could go dig it out again. all these puppets from the press mouthing israel’s narrative is beyond transparent.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 6:03 pm

        according to AP thru the filter of israel lobby influence don’t you mean. what.ever.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 6:46 pm

        biorabbi, Perhaps both Hamas and Netanyahu acted because of the same political rationale: improving their faltering popularity.

        a while ago the EU mediator from germany said the deal had not gone thru previously because of israel and meshaal said the same thing in a few interviews. i think it probably went thru now because mubarak is gone and the egyptian mediating team was not under the influence of IS/US. it sounds to me hamas got what they asked for with the exception of so many palestinian prisoners not being able to go to their respective homes. but the main part, the amount of prisoners…had israel been willing to do that years ago it probably would have taken place years earlier. the think tank pr machine has used gilad for their own purpose, that is my opinion.

        this is interesting, someone is being blocked from posting a certain segment of the interview. i wonder why. probably whatever it was he said will get out eventually. there certainly seems to be a lot of effort being made to frame the narrative in the press.

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      • Walid
        October 19, 2011, 4:47 am

        From where I’m standing, Annie, Egypt did its utmost to keep him jailed. It’s only when Mubarak left that things started to change.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 5:05 am

        yes walid, egypt’s bequest to IS/US under mubarak /did its utmost to keep him jailed.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 19, 2011, 9:57 am

        “At worst it was forced, at best it was exploitation of a man in a very sensitive situation.”

        Until he comments on it, this is you imposing your ideas on the situation. For all you know, he was happy to do the interview as a way of indicating that there is no reason why Arabs and Jews can’t just treat each other as just people.

        “The guy is in the middle of being released from five years of captivity and is still on foreign soil. I wouldn’t think that he’d like to sit down for an interview, instead of crossing over to Israel and/or speaking with his family.”

        But you aren’t him, you didn’t experience his experience, so you have absolutely no basis to imagine what he would want to do in this situation. For all you know, he believed that the ability to speak in this intereview was, at that moment, more important to him than the minor delay in going back to his family.

        “In the interview itself he says seeing so many people after being in isolation is hard on him – another indication that he doesn’t really want to be interviewed.”

        Oh, baloney. It means that it is hard, not that he doesn’t want to do it. I’m sure most people would find speaking in front of their nation’s legilature, on national TV to give an address as to how they want the country to act in the next few years would be “hard on [them]” but many, many, many people would want to do it anyway. This is more of you trying to put your spin on this.

        “Neither is he expected to give any more interviews anytime soon.”

        Which suggests that he said his peace.

      • DBG
        October 19, 2011, 2:08 pm

        wow, that makes absolutely zero sense at all annie, Mubarak, at the behest of Israel, kept their own prisoner captive.

        Bizarro world.

      • Chaos4700
        October 21, 2011, 9:16 am

        This would be the same Mubarak that Israel supported and tried to keep in power, DBG?

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 12:59 am

        dim, her saying ‘I wasn’t aware anyone had actually forced Shalit into doing this.” just means she agrees with me. i’m not aware shalit was actually forced to do it either.

      • wondering jew
        October 19, 2011, 6:46 pm

        Regarding the interview in the middle of an exchange process: How painful was this for Shalit. Probably on a day that he was filled with hope and fear it was mostly another hoop to jump through. But his jailers were still nearby him wearing masks, holding weapons, so to believe he must have already been euphoric is baloney. It was a combination of emotions in all probability. And as far as Israelis or supporters of Israel being upset about an interview at that point of time: It’s natural. Imagine US POW’s from Vietnam had been released via the Soviet Union and a Russian interviewer had pushed a microphone in their faces while their Vietnamese jailers were standing nearby masked and armed, don’t you think most Americans would have been offended? It is natural to take offense.

        The situation is filled with repressed anger, an exchange of prisoners, with bereaved families in the background, not as a path to peace, but merely an exchange. Hyper sensitivity is natural in the situation from the Israeli supporting side.

  6. ritzl
    October 18, 2011, 12:19 pm

    Very happy for all the families.

    Cynicism, though, (or is that reality?, or long-standing Israeli practice?) dictates that by this time next year 1000 new Palestinian political prisoners will be “recruited” to spend open-ended administrative detention in Israeli prisons, replacing those just freed. 28 just last week according to PCHR, via uruknet:

    link to uruknet.info

    And I hear they’re “recruiting” them younger these days. (What was it last year, about 300-400 kids arrested and detained?)

    Beside the obvious reasons, it’s good that Shalit was released because now the focus can be solely on Israel’s ongoing duplicity and unabated, malevolent destruction of Palestinian society, via (among many other methods) its detention policy.

  7. dumvitaestspesest
    October 18, 2011, 1:51 pm

    it is so sad that those families have to go through all of this.
    So many innocent people, fathers, brothers, sons, couisins etc. are kept in Israeli jails just because they dared to fight for the truth, for the right to life in freedom and dignity. They are punished for protectiing their land, the most loved ones. The are punished for something any decent human being would do. And the world just watches, and does nothing about it.
    And the world’s politicians shake hands with Israeli occupant and exchange smiles, promises and who knows what else.

  8. biorabbi
    October 18, 2011, 3:46 pm

    To those who offer critique for religious woman who accept the veil… this is their choice. I don’t believe it is far anybody to interfere with another’s religious belief. We should all be able to practice(or not)one’s beliefs. Should the Amish or Orthodox Jews be force to abandon their garb?

    If you disgusted with the outcome of religion(all of ‘em), join the club, but targeting Muslim woman for their dress, proclaiming your worried about their “freedom” is kind of ludicrous. It would be like me telling my cousin, “Hey, I really love you, so lose the stupid paisley kippa on top of your head, bro and join the human race.”

    If a Muslim woman discusses ‘her’ religious practice, I’ve got nothing but respect for her, but it’s kind of weird having outsiders offer critique on religious garb.

    • seafoid
      October 18, 2011, 4:17 pm

      It’s not much better for Jewish orthodox women, Biorabbi. How many of them read ? And the Lithuanians with their Polish furry hats in the Middle East are nuts. Didn’t they always live in their homeland? Why do they dress like Polish medieval peasants?

      • Lexikon
        October 18, 2011, 4:41 pm

        Consider a pitty is not the same as to interfere on someone’s faith. But I think is a social fact that religious thought is deeply conservative towards the rights of women and explicitly sectarian. And to see a former secular society heading into one where religion presents itself as a fundamental fact in life is a sad event for me.

        And I am talking about Palestine, because Zionism has first to be proved as a non religious-driven movement.

  9. seafoid
    October 18, 2011, 4:37 pm

    The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) continues to call on Israel to allow the resumption of the family visit programme for Gazans, suspended in 2007 after Shalit was captured.

    What a shower of b*st*rds.

  10. jon s
    October 18, 2011, 5:31 pm

    It was a day of tension, exhiliration and also apprehension, because of the release of so many convicted murderers . At least Shalit’s ordeal is over, after nearly five and a half years. He looks like a walking skeleton, weak and malnourished. The guys who abducted him and held him for all that time better start running and hiding.

    • annie
      October 18, 2011, 6:09 pm

      convicted? convicted by whom? listen up , there are way way more murderers on the israel side of the non border. how would you like it if the only judge and jury throughout the land was hamas? because the is gov has not an ounce more credibility than hamas, in fact less as far as i am concerned. so how would you like it if every person who had killed a palestinian was in a hamas jail and referenced as a convicted murderer. just tell me you would take that seriously for even one minute. this is israel’s war, always has been always will be. it’s not israel’s call to name who is and who is not a murderer. if i wasn’t worried about my comment being deleted i would tell you where you can put your lame a** opinion.

      • jon s
        October 19, 2011, 2:12 am

        Annie, according to your “logic” the US shouldn’t prosecute terrorists unless there are members of Al Qaeda on the jury, and shouldn’t prosecute gangsters unless there are certified mafia types on the jury, either.
        The Israeli military justice system leaves much to be desired, but in most cases, including the ones I was referring to, the terrorists admit, even take pride in, their crimes. Just check the resumes of some of those released yesterday. I doubt you would be happy about having them back on the streets if you lived in the neighborhood.

      • seafoid
        October 19, 2011, 4:03 am

        jon

        I can sell you a secondhand sony cassette walkman. The terrorism memes are all out of date.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 19, 2011, 10:16 am

        Oh, baloney. If the Israelis didn’t want to be attacked by these Palestinians, fighting for the freedom of their people and their land from the Israeli barbarians, they shouldn’t oppress the Palestinians, murdered them, burn their children to death or make their lives a living hell, like they have for generations.

        And while I don’t condone any innocent person being killed in this conflict, the fact of the matter is (1) there are far more murderous Israelis than Palestinians, and (2) the Israelis have had the power to stop this fight for generations, but they covet the land more than they desire peace. In a more-than-metaphoric sense, they brought their deaths upon themselves.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 3:30 pm

        gangsters? al qaeda? are you nuts? this is an occupation.

        The Israeli military justice system leaves much to be desired, but in most cases, including the ones I was referring to, the terrorists admit, even take pride in, their crimes.

        and exactly what pray tell separates idf crimes from those of the palestinian resistance??? do you have rocks for brains or are you just willfully obtuse jon. been living under a ROCK for the last few years or don’t you remember Israeli army targets and arrests children in order to repress Palestinian dissent in the West Bank? (video at the link)

        this is still going on. israel imprisons local heroes who lead the village non violent resistant protests and they use their children, abduct their CHILDREN to do it. so please don’t give us this garbage about crimes.

        did you miss the b’tselem report about israel not recognizing palestinians right to protest? so in your book i suppose because israel considers a protest unlawful those who participate are criminals.

        get a life jon. the only thing separating violence of the two sides is yours is state sanctioned and funded by our government and the people on your team have fancy weapons and uniforms. you know if the situation were reversed and hamas or the PLO was imprisoning israeli leaders of non violent protests and convicting them in military tribunals you would be singing a different tune altogether. spare us your hasbara about who is and is not a terrorist.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 4:21 pm

        here jon, here’s another al qaeda member for you the idf is protecting israeli society from:

        Majde Za’aqiq, a 38-year-old school teacher from Beit Ommar and a long-time member of both the Palestine Solidarity Project and the Center for Freedom and Justice, has been imprisoned by the Israeli Authorities for nearly two months……..

        Majde Za’aqiq was arrested on August 20, 2011 as he was leaving Beit Ommar’s weekly unarmed demonstration. Israeli Forces pulled Majde and a Spanish international solidarity activist out of their car and placed both under arrest. The international was released some time later, but Majde remains imprisoned in Ofar on a completely fabricated
        accusation that he was throwing stones. Multiple Israeli, international, and Palestinian activists were with Majde during the entire demonstration, and he did not throw a single stone. At the end of August, an Israeli military court denied Majde the possibility of bail. Not only are he and his two small sons suffering from his unjust imprisonment, but the boys Majde teaches have also started the school
        year without their teacher.

        Many international PSP activists over the years have worked closely with and come to adore Majde. The Palestine Solidarity Project stands with him and his family, and with all Palestinian prisoners of whom
        more than 5000 remain unjustly incarcerated even after the prisoner
        deal. To donate to Majde’s legal fees and to help financially support
        his family, please donate via paypal.

        Donations can be made online at link to center4freedom.org
        or to write checks to our American account, please make them out to:

        Center for Freedom and Justice (write “Majde” in the memo)

        and mail to:
        P.O. Box 24281
        Santa Fe, NM 87502

        more activism out of new mexico…love it

    • libra
      October 18, 2011, 7:13 pm

      jon s: “He looks like a walking skeleton, weak and malnourished.”

      jon, you’re surely not suggesting his captors were deliberately restricting his calorie intake? Why, that would be an outrageous thing to do. Where could they possibly have got such an inhuman idea from?

      That said, couldn’t you just for the moment celebrate Shalit’s release and restrain your revenge fantasies for at least a day? Perhaps you might even wait to hear a little more from Shalit himself first.

      • Shingo
        October 18, 2011, 7:37 pm

        He looks like a walking skeleton, weak and malnourished.

        Yes he does, which I was sad to see.

        Still, I saw no signs fo white phosphorous burns or evidence he had been tortured.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 1:00 am

        maybe he fasted in solidarity w/palesrinian prisoners.

        ;)

      • James
        October 19, 2011, 1:22 am

        well said libra.. thanks..

    • Potsherd2
      October 18, 2011, 7:40 pm

      Should the guys who drag 10 year olds out of their beds at night and take them blindfolded to have confessions tortured out of them “start running and hiding” too, jon s? I’ll bet you’d say that assassinating or abducting such soldiers would be terrorism. So why isn’t it terrorism when Israel commits assassination for revenge? As it does ALL THE TIME.

      Yes, Shalit looks malnourished. Wasn’t it a fine joke to put the population of Gaza “on a diet.” Ha! Ha! Would you suggest that Hamas take food out of the mouths of Gazan children to feed an enemy terrorist?

    • Woody Tanaka
      October 19, 2011, 10:09 am

      “The guys who abducted him and held him for all that time better start running and hiding.”

      LOL. Yeah, I’m sure Hamas is a-quaking in their boots, given how successful your vaunted Israelis were at tracking down Shalit. If all else fails, they can just go to the places they kept Shalit for the last 5 years.

      • eee
        October 19, 2011, 4:36 pm

        They should go there. Now that Shalit is not there, it would be easy to bomb them. Alas, they are not as stupid as you Woody.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 19, 2011, 5:11 pm

        “They should go there. Now that Shalit is not there, it would be easy to bomb them. Alas, they are not as stupid as you Woody.”

        LMAO. Given that you’re pretty much the last person in the world who hasn’t decided whether Israel has nuclear weapons, I have no doubts that you TOTALLY believe that Israel knew exactly where he was for the last five years but didn’t do anything.

        All hail the mighty Israeli special forces. From “Victory at Entebbe” to “Sitting With Our Thumbs Up Our Asses For Five Years” in less than 40 years. LMAO.

    • Chaos4700
      October 21, 2011, 9:18 am

      Are all Israelis Arab-hating xenophobes? Seriously? We’re fucking tired of you shrieking about how a thousand Palestinians aren’t worth Schalit’s Jewish fingernails.

  11. seafoid
    October 18, 2011, 5:34 pm

    link to haaretz.com

    “Tens of thousands of flag-waving Palestinians celebrated the homecoming Tuesday of hundreds of prisoners exchanged for Gilad Shalit, with the crowd exhorting militants to seize more Israeli soldiers for future swaps. ”

    I bet there will be newborn boys in Gaza called Gilad.

    • annie
      October 18, 2011, 6:10 pm

      my friend in gaza wrote to tell me there were hundreds of thousands of gazans celebrating.

  12. biorabbi
    October 18, 2011, 6:16 pm

    On further reading, the interview was coerced, or certainly appears this way. See here:

    link to ynetnews.com

    Yes, this is an Israeli news source, but it’s not the words, the Hamas military guy is right behind him before/during the interview. I urge all to view the Hamas guy in the picture. If the image is fake, then the interview may have been fair, but the Hamas gunman was inches away. The Egyptian journalist must have seen this. Isn’t it a relavant point.

    Would it be relavant if IDF radio interview a Hamas prisoner with a gun inches from his head?

    • annie
      October 18, 2011, 6:41 pm

      gunman, he looks more like a camera man to me…it seems perhaps there were very few people there and he was positioned to be the person holding the camera on the woman interviewing. but, i see what you mean although gilad didn’t look scared, i imagine after all this time he knew they were not going to be killing him.
      re what you said about bib, the pictures i thought were the weirdest was him positioning himself to be within the frame of gilad hugging his father. every single shot i saw was the three of them. weird.

      • biorabbi
        October 18, 2011, 6:54 pm

        Instructions to the camera man. I didn’t post the PMO’s office video of Shalit arriving in Israel, but it showed a very frail Gilad getting off a copter, just kind of waiting for Bibi who then arrives and greets him and then brings Gilad to his parents. WTF. The pic you are referring is doubly weird in that it captures the emotional reunion between Shalit and Noam(father) with Bibi appearing to leap perfectly mid-way into frame!

        But I salute Bibi for agreeing to this deal. I salute Hamas as well. There are those on the Israeli right and in the Palestinian Islamist and secular movement who would find faults with this deal. Livni and Abbas are probably fuming being swept out of the spotlight.

      • annie
        October 18, 2011, 7:36 pm

        although abbas was not front and center he was in the spotlight in the WB and i’m sure he was pleased with the outcome. he stood next to a hamas official and it appeared a unified front.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 1:02 am

        i saw this and thought you might appreciate it biorabbi Bibi’s true role in historical events .

      • DBG
        October 19, 2011, 1:11 am

        he is such a goon.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 6:22 am

        israelis are having a field day w/mocking netanyahu over this. link to facebook.com

        link to facebook.com

        lol

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 6:28 am

        maybe instead of focusing their hasbara on berating egypt over a ten minute interview they should have considered how netanyahu sticking his schnozzle into every angle of shalit’s homecoming might impact social media. big duh.

    • tree
      October 18, 2011, 7:27 pm

      Would it be relavant if IDF radio interview a Hamas prisoner with a gun inches from his head?

      Geez, get your eyes checked. Its a camcorder, not a gun, and the pointy thing is the foam mic cover. What, you are worried that he might have been poked with the foam if he didn’t do the interview? Or maybe they would have made him sit in the “comfy chair”? After all, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

      You guys are clinging to straws. Talking is one of the best strategies for dealing with post traumatic stress. You should be happy for him. He isn’t being forced to do an interview in captivity here. He’s been released. Talking about it with a reporter is not some terrible ordeal, even if it is an Egyptian reporter. Its probably good therapy for him.

  13. biorabbi
    October 18, 2011, 6:25 pm

    But it is also wrong for the Israeli PMO’s office to show Shalit coming off the copter, giving a salute to Bibi and the brass. Just let him go home to his family and recover… same for the Palestinian prisoners, many of them elderly men now. Instead both Bibi and Hamas seem to enjoy the glory and glow of a favorable public opinion.

  14. biorabbi
    October 18, 2011, 6:59 pm

    What the heck… you’ve probably seen it. Here’s Bibi greeting Gilad. Note the staged aspect at play upon greeting Gilad.

    link to youtube.com

    I’m sure Noam Shalit was thinking, however, “I’ll put up with Bibi’s ego to get my boy back.”

    What’s the psychological term where you have to insert yourself into every situation on a personal basis?

    • Chu
      October 18, 2011, 7:28 pm

      Besides the psych. term, an opportunistic politician.

    • Shingo
      October 18, 2011, 7:40 pm

      I’m sure Noam Shalit was thinking, however, “I’ll put up with Bibi’s ego to get my boy back.”

      I think you’r right. While Bibbi wants to claim this as a political coup, he doesn’t have too many fans among Israel’s victims of the conflict. Miko Peled tells the story about his 12 year old nice being killed in a suicide attack in 1996 and how his sister told Bibbi not to come to the funeral because she blamed him.

      Similarlyl Rabin’s widow blamed the assassinatino fo her husband on Bibbi for the incitement he and Sharon stirred only 10 days before.

    • Walid
      October 18, 2011, 8:28 pm

      He’ll now get a million dollars for a book that someone will write in his name and make another million from speaking tours all over the US. Isn’t it how these things work?

      Shalit was on a tank out on a mission to kill Palestinian civilians and he was captured. Nothing more.

      • jon s
        October 19, 2011, 2:15 am

        Walid, he was captured on a cross-border raid, from inside Israel, not on any kind of mission against Palestinian civilians.

      • tree
        October 19, 2011, 4:05 am

        Walid, he was captured on a cross-border raid, from inside Israel, not on any kind of mission against Palestinian civilians.

        Jon, Shalit was part of a tank unit that had been involved in the IDF’s firing on Gaza since May 2006 or before. Palestinian civilians were killed and injured by the IDF tank fire. I know you like to think that Israeli shells only hit “terrorists” with “blood on their hands” but most of the time its Palestinian civilians that suffer the deaths, injuries and damage. More Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli tank fire in 2006 than were Israelis killed in 10 years of Gaza rocket fire.

        Its likely that Shalit never really knew what or who was killed or injured from shells fired from his tank, but he’s an IDF soldier. The idea that he is some babe in the woods who never hurt a fly is simplistic nonsense. Soldiers kill people. Its what they are trained to do.

      • tree
        October 19, 2011, 4:24 am

        In case you’ve forgotten the sequence of events, from a report by HRW on the death of 8 Palestinian family members from an IDF artillery shell in early June 2006 (prior to Shalit’s capture):

        Since its September 2005 pullout from Gaza, the IDF has regularly struck northern Gaza with artillery shelling, in response to Qassam rocket attacks from the area by Palestinian armed groups. In the last 10 months, Israel has admitted to firing more than 5,000 artillery shells into the area. The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs puts the number at 5,700 IDF shells fired since the end of March 2005.

        According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, IDF artillery fire has killed 47 Palestinians, including 11 children and five women, and injured 192 others since September 2005. It has also damaged dozens of homes in northern Gaza.

        Human Rights Watch researchers visiting the area say almost every house on the periphery of areas of Beit Hanoun and Beit Lahia in northern Gaza has holes in it indicative of Israeli artillery shrapnel. In a June 10 interview with the New York Times, General Aviv Kochavi, the Israeli commander for the south, indicated that the purpose of the artillery shelling is to deter future attacks and punish area residents: “The message we are trying to convey, you can call it deterrence, but it’s ‘Ladies and gentlemen, there is an equivalence: so long as you shoot qassams at us, we’ll shoot at you.’”

        link to electronicintifada.net

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 4:29 am

        More Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli tank fire in 2006 than were Israelis killed in 10 years of Gaza rocket fire……Soldiers kill people. Its what they are trained to do.

        and when those soldiers happen to be palestinian, they are called terrorists and spend decades in israeli prisons. so..is gilad a terrorist? when he is set free will he ever attack a palestinian again? let’s hope not.

      • Shmuel
        October 19, 2011, 4:35 am

        tree,

        Not only are Palestinian prisoners “non-people”, as Max Blumenthal rightly points out, but it turns out that Palestinian dead are non-dead, Palestinian injured non-injured and Palestinian pain non-pain. It is no wonder that the issue of security for Palestinians is never mentioned. What use could non-people possibly have for security?

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 4:38 am

        jon, palestinian civilians matter too:

        Hamas saying that the attack was in response to Israel’s assassination ten days earlier in Nablus of the two leading Hamas commanders Jamal Mansour and Omar Mansour as well as six civilians including two children.[4][5][6]

        The suicide bomber who died in the course of carrying out the attack was later identified to be Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri from the Palestinian West Bank town of Aqabah. Izz al-Masri was 22 at the time and the son of a successful restaurant owner, and from an affluent land-owning family. He was escorted to the restaurant by Ahlam Tamimi, a 20-year-old female university student and part-time journalist, who had disguised herself as a Jewish tourist for the occasion. She later commented that she was not sorry for what she did and does not recognize Israel’s existence. “Despite the fact that I’m sentenced to 16 life sentences I know that we will become free from Israeli occupation and then I will also be free from the prison,” she said.[7] Tamimi was released in October 2011 in exchange for the release of captured soldier Gilad Shalit.[8]

        Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing

        civilians matter, as well as commanders. and how many 20 and 22 year old israelis have killed innocent palestinian civilians? do you call them heroes? or terrorists?

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 5:17 am

        It was a pretty quiet year, relatively speaking. Only 457 Palestinians and 10 Israelis were killed, according to the B’Tselem human rights organization, including the victims of Qassam rockets. Fewer casualties than in many previous years. However, it was still a terrible year: 92 Palestinian children were killed (fortunately, not a single Israeli child was killed by Palestinians, despite the Qassams). One-fifth of the Palestinians killed were children and teens – a disproportionate, almost unprecedented number. The Jewish year of 5767. Almost 100 children, who were alive and playing last New Year, didn’t survive to see this one.
        September 28, 2007

      • Shmuel
        October 19, 2011, 5:21 am

        92 Palestinian children were killed

        And Palestinian children are, of course, non-children.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 5:29 am

        non-children, non existent, they do not exist…. anymore. there may come a time they never existed, if israel has it’s way. if we can erase their murders then we can erase the murderer who is still living and thriving only under another name, a name that isn’t called terrorist or murderer or colonialist, he/she can reinvent himself as..victim or idf or hero or anything really because the non-children don’t exist anymore.

        simple really

      • Shingo
        October 19, 2011, 6:35 am

        Walid, he was captured on a cross-border raid, from inside Israel, not on any kind of mission against Palestinian civilians.

        The dat AFTER Israel captured 2 Palestinians from Gaza City in a cross-border raid. Those brothers have never been seen of heard from since.

        But hey, they’re not even worth one fraction of a Jewish fingernail are they?

      • Shingo
        October 19, 2011, 6:40 am

        In the last 10 months, Israel has admitted to firing more than 5,000 artillery shells into the area.

        HRW puts the number at closer to 7,700.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 6:53 am

        The dat AFTER Israel captured 2 Palestinians from Gaza City in a cross-border raid. Those brothers have never been seen of heard from since.

        as i recall one of them was home on 2 week holiday from medical school.

      • jon s
        October 19, 2011, 7:03 am

        I can recall previous prisoners , and prisoner exchanges, but I don’t remember any prisoner who so touched the heartstrings of the Israeli people as Gilad Shalit. Something about that boy – maybe his obvious shyness, gentleness , vulnaribilty- moved so many people , as never before. Add to that the noble and anguished campaign mounted by his family – the indelible image of them sitting on the sidewalk in front of the PM’s residence on the Seder eve…and resisting “advice” to call for imposing a siege on Gaza…
        Another point: the critical involvement of Gershon Baskin, an Israeli-American peace activist, c0-director of IPCRI, (whom I’ve met on several occasions) in the negotiations. A “feather-in-the-cap” of the Israeli peace movement.

      • Shingo
        October 19, 2011, 8:15 am

        I can recall previous prisoners , and prisoner exchanges, but I don’t remember any prisoner who so touched the heartstrings of the Israeli people as Gilad Shalit.

        You can put that down to clever marketting. After all, the stories about Pat Tillaman and Jessica Lynch touched the heartstrings of the Aemrican people until they were revealed to be complete BS.

        The story of the babies taken out of incubators had Congressmen in tears.

        Lies and propaganda can be powerful.

        What Shalit represented to the rest of the world was the ugly and cynical face of Israeli leadership – perfectly willing to exploit him and use him for politcal gain – pretending to care about his wellbeing while doing nothing to have him returned.

        A “feather-in-the-cap” of the Israeli peace movement.

        A “feather-in-the-cap” of Egypt and Hamas too. Without either of them agreeing to the deal, Shalit would still be in Gaza.

      • Taxi
        October 19, 2011, 8:56 am

        Shingo,

        Preferring cynicism and political theater over life and the joy of living, the Apartheid israeli politicians coulda easily had shalit back at home the first year he was captured. The principle of exchanging him for numerous Palestinian prisoners was ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS on the table – it was only a question of negotiating the ‘details’. They went for it now for opportune domestic gain – having lost a major PR battle at the UN against Abbas so recently – and also because they’re preparing for war on the region and on Iran and wanted the ‘shalitist’ portion of their population to be behind them when the approaching zero hour takes place.

        There are still 5000+ political prisoners in israeli jails and like walid said: there will be shalit2 coming to the big screen soon.

      • DBG
        October 19, 2011, 2:10 pm

        annie, so suicide bombing is a valid act of war?

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 19, 2011, 3:04 pm

        “annie, so suicide bombing is a valid act of war?”

        I can’t speak for annie, so I’ll only speak for myself. While I abhor the killing of any innocent, if the Israelis persist in committing such unquestionable acts of war such as the occupation, the land theft for Jewish colonies in the West Bank, the ethnic cleansing of Arab East Jerusalem, the destruction of Arab town, villiages and homes, not to mention the killing of innocent Palestinians with their US-supplied arsenal, they simply have no valid basis to complaint that the acts of their opponents are not “valid.”

        A suicide bomb is as valid as a “settlement” or the blockading of Gaza.

      • eee
        October 19, 2011, 4:42 pm

        So your argument is that if you think the other side is performing war crimes, you can perform war crimes also and neither side has any basis for complaint. What a genius.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 19, 2011, 5:15 pm

        “So your argument is that…”

        I’ve come to the conclusion that whenever one of you hasba-rats starts a post by pretending to restate someone else’s argument, you always screw it up. Don’t they teach reading comprehension or basic logic in your Zionist fantasyland??

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 5:39 pm

        annie, so suicide bombing is a valid act of war?

        you mean as opposed to blowing up market places and running away because that is so much more moral? tell me yonira dbg, what kind of tactics did the jewish terrorists use , the ones streets are named after in tel aviv? which ones were more moral than using their own body as part of the bomb.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 5:40 pm

        Don’t they teach reading comprehension or basic logic in your Zionist fantasyland??

        no, they teach the opposite. haven’t you ever read the hasbara handbook teaching israel advocacy on campus. the 7 laws of propaganda?

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 5:48 pm

        i noticed both eee and jon and yoni completely ignored the point of that post. too hot to handle? the ol palestinians are people too post. i’m waiting for you guys to call the people who massacred the children terrorists. you know, the deaths who motivated that Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing. tell me how moral those killers were, the killers with the uniforms, the ones we support when they massacre civilians.

      • MRW
        October 19, 2011, 5:50 pm

        Jon s,

        but I don’t remember any prisoner who so touched the heartstrings of the Israeli people as Gilad Shalit….shyness, gentleness….

        It’s standard myth-making, and frankly repellent. Goes against the trope of the beefy, tough IDF soldier. He’s alive. He wasn’t killed. As a soldier, he should be grateful. And it has all the national import of a Jessica Lynch, who basically did zip—she later had presence of mind to say so on national TV, and say she was being used for propaganda purposes; no one heard a word from her after that because the army and TV dropped her. Big whoop.

        The real story are the Palestinians. The picture of that man kissing his daughter that he hadn’t seen for 22 years was haunting, heart-breaking. An 80-year-old prisoner had been in an Israeli jail without due processin the greatest democracy in the ME for 29 years? Longer than Mandela?

        The maudlin story of Gilad Shalit pales by comparison, but it’s typical of manipulative Israeli military PR. And venal.

      • es1982
        October 20, 2011, 5:07 am

        I can’t speak for annie, so I’ll only speak for myself. While I abhor the killing of any innocent, if the Israelis persist in committing such unquestionable acts of war such as the occupation, the land theft for Jewish colonies in the West Bank, the ethnic cleansing of Arab East Jerusalem, the destruction of Arab town, villiages and homes, not to mention the killing of innocent Palestinians with their US-supplied arsenal, they simply have no valid basis to complaint that the acts of their opponents are not “valid.”

        A suicide bomb is as valid as a “settlement” or the blockading of Gaza.

        That’s a twisted justification for terrorism. You know the old saying – two wrongs don’t make a right. No Israeli action can validate terrorism against civilians.

      • es1982
        October 20, 2011, 5:20 am

        you mean as opposed to blowing up market places and running away because that is so much more moral? tell me yonira dbg, what kind of tactics did the jewish terrorists use , the ones streets are named after in tel aviv? which ones were more moral than using their own body as part of the bomb.

        Annie, I find it disturbing that you just can’t find it in yourself to condemn Palestinian terrorism. Instead, whenever asked about the subject, you always say Israelis are worse – either today’s soldiers and settlers or the pre-1948 Jewish militias.

        Let me do something I doubt you’ll ever do – acknowledge that both sides can do terrible, wrong things. I don’t only condemn Palestinian terrorism, I condemn Jewish terrorism as well. The Irgun and Lehi were indeed terrorist organizations which targeted Arab civilians and that was an unjustified crime. The fanatic settlers who attack Palestinians and destroy their olive trees and fields are criminals who belong in jail. The policy of taking children to jail in the middle of the night is horrible. Israeli soldiers who target civilians (killing or abusing) are also criminals.

        I can criticize my own side without losing faith in it. The other side should be able to do the same.

      • Taxi
        October 20, 2011, 6:38 am

        Poor ‘disturbed’ you es198?. I really feel for your suffering highly-strung debating violin.

        Fortunately for Palestinians, who have every LEGITIMATE AND MORAL right to resist their murderers and rapists by any means available, well they’ve learned from the Apartheid israelis that actually TWO WRONGS DO MAKE A RIGHT. Them Palestinians have been dumb too long and they’ve finally learned that it’s true out there in the Apartheid jungles of israel: MIGHT DOES MAKE RIGHT.

        Pot to kettle: I’ll have a nice cup of colonial tea with two white racist cubes of political saccharine please.

      • Shingo
        October 20, 2011, 7:07 am

        That’s a twisted justification for terrorism. You know the old saying – two wrongs don’t make a right. No Israeli action can validate terrorism against civilians.

        That’s Zio morality for you. Israel can do whatever it wants, and use any measures it feels like (incuding terrorism), but responding with terrorism is completely unacceptable.

        And then you wander why Israel is being delegitimized.

      • Shingo
        October 20, 2011, 7:18 am

        Annie, I find it disturbing that you just can’t find it in yourself to condemn Palestinian terrorism.

        Seriously es1982,

        You sound like Hannibal Lecter who is offended that the victim who’s liver he’s just easten happend to drink too much.

        Yes es1982, Israel are Israelis are worse and yet you seem to have the same problem condemning Israeli terrorism.

        The Irgun and Lehi were indeed terrorist organizations which targeted Arab civilians and that was an unjustified crime. The fanatic settlers who attack Palestinians and destroy their olive trees and fields are criminals who belong in jail. The policy of taking children to jail in the middle of the night is horrible. Israeli soldiers who target civilians (killing or abusing) are also criminals.

        That’s all well as good es1982, but your problem is the same one that Witty and other Ziinists have. You all want the world to believe that the proble is just the Irgun and Lehi, when in fact, it was the entire Wishuv who made up the Haganah and the Palmach and went on to become the IDF.

        The settlers are not some rogue elements, they are central to Israeli policy. When settlers attack Palestinians and destroy their olive trees and fields, the IDF does not punich them, they simply drive off the Palestinians (pretendign to protect them) and then seize their property.

        Teh policy of taking children to jail in the middle of the night comes from the very top.

      • Taxi
        October 20, 2011, 8:03 am

        “The policy of taking children to jail in the middle of the night is horrible.”

        “horrible”???!!!! Is this really as far as you can go: “horrible”?!!!!!!

        It’s a frigging outrageous disgusting immoral unconscionable abusive form of DEMONIC STATE TERRORISM AGAINST CHILDREN!

        You are so full of zio bs es1982 with your insincere “I’m against the occupation” – who you think you’re kidding?! You’re a fully fledged supporter of EVERYTHING zionism just pretending to be ‘even-handed’! We’ve a few zioz like you around here, we’ve frigging seen this movie before!

        How’d like me turning up at your kids’ bedroom at 2pm with guns pointing at their third eye, kidnapping them, blindfolding them, threatening them with beatings and rapes, interrogating their sleepy little heads for HOURS without the presence of lawyer or parent?!!!

        What the eff would you call the above: “horrible”, just simply “horrible”? I’d say “horrible” is a bad tasting israeli falafel – now THAT’S “horrible”!

        And kidnapping and terrorizing children? I’d call that AN UNFORGIVABLE EVIL CRIME WORTHY OF A HANGING!

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 20, 2011, 10:06 am

        es1982 says:

        “Let me do something I doubt you’ll ever do – acknowledge that both sides can do terrible, wrong things. I don’t only condemn Palestinian terrorism, I condemn Jewish terrorism as well.”

        but then says

        “Cast Lead wasn’t a case of state terrorism. It was a case of a state trying to end the firing of rockets on its civilian population.”

        If Cast Lead doesn’t count as state terrorism, then terrorism doesn’t exist. It was nothing but a vast orgy of terrorism.

        What you want it to make your self feel good… “See, I’m willing to condemn terrorist Jews who are dead or who I disagree with, but I’m unwilling to condemn something when I agree with the motivations.”

        See, the problem is that very few people here would argue with the legitimacy of the motive-premise you assign to Israel. The problem is that not every action taken in response to that motive-premise is legitimate. That’s the problem.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 20, 2011, 10:16 am

        “That’s a twisted justification for terrorism.”

        It’s not a justification for anything (that’s what the whole “While I abhor the killing of any innocent” part means). It is an explanation for it. There is a difference.

        “You know the old saying – two wrongs don’t make a right. No Israeli action can validate terrorism against civilians.”

        Again, no one is sayin that it does. What I am saying is simply that Israelis’ actions are as bad and in most cases much worse than the terrorism and resistence acts it suffers at the hands of the Palestinians that you are oppressing, and in most every case, the Israeli suffering is brought indirectly upon themselves, by their terror acts against Palestinians.

        Which leads to the question: why should anyone give a damn about your suffering when you (1) don’t give a damn about the worse suffering you inflict on others and (2) are unwilling to change the terroristic, criminal and apartheid policies? If you aren’t willing to change your behavior (and history has established beyond doubt that you are not) then you have no valid basis to complaint about others’ acts against you.

      • Shingo
        October 20, 2011, 6:10 pm

        “Cast Lead wasn’t a case of state terrorism. It was a case of a state trying to end the firing of rockets on its civilian population.”

        Cast Lead was certainly a case of state terrorism. It began with ISrael violating the ceasefire and deliberately provoking a response from Hamas and militants in Gaza. Thus, it was not a repsonse to rocket attacks.

        wikileaks revealed that Israel were anxious that the ceasefire was holding and that Hamas were benefitting from the calm, so they decided that militarism was necessary to cut off Hamas at the knees.

      • es1982
        October 21, 2011, 7:58 am

        See, the problem is that very few people here would argue with the legitimacy of the motive-premise you assign to Israel. The problem is that not every action taken in response to that motive-premise is legitimate. That’s the problem.

        I don’t think that if the motivation is justified, then every action is justified. There were many unjustified actions during Cast Lead, but there were far more justified ones. The targets of the operation were terrorists (not civilians) and weapons caches and those are absolutely justified targets.

      • es1982
        October 21, 2011, 8:02 am

        If you aren’t willing to change your behavior (and history has established beyond doubt that you are not) then you have no valid basis to complaint about others’ acts against you.

        In other words, terrorism is unjustified, but complaining about it is just as unjustified. By the same token, it could be said that neither side has a right to complain about injustices against it, because it inflicts pain and injustice on the other side.

        I’d say the exact opposite. Both sides have legitimate grievances, and both sides have the right to express them.

      • es1982
        October 21, 2011, 8:09 am

        wikileaks revealed that Israel were anxious that the ceasefire was holding and that Hamas were benefitting from the calm, so they decided that militarism was necessary to cut off Hamas at the knees.

        Can you provide a link to that? I’ve done a Google search and all I could find was Israel trying to coordinate with Egypt and Fatah – nothing about Israel intentionally breaking the ceasefire.

      • Chaos4700
        October 21, 2011, 9:10 am

        The shoah denier is convinced that Israel was blowing up “terrorist” schools and “terrorist” hospitals and “terrorist” UN facilities, huh.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 21, 2011, 9:16 am

        “There were many unjustified actions during Cast Lead, but there were far more justified ones.”

        Nonsense, but since “justified” is a subjective matter, it is pointless to argue. (For example, I think that opposition to a just armed struggle for liberation is not a justified act by an oppressive occupier. No doubt you will disagree with whether Israel qualifies as such.)

        “The targets of the operation were terrorists (not civilians) and weapons caches and those are absolutely justified targets.”

        But, again, that goes to motive. Even if we assume that your analysis of what targets were or were not justified is correct (it isn’t, but we’ll ignore that), that only identifies the motivation (i.e., to get these “justified” targets.) The question is whether the means and methods employed (both before, during and after the Cast Lead terror operation) were or were not terrorism. And clearly they were and are.

      • Chaos4700
        October 21, 2011, 9:21 am

        So,jon, he was captured in much the same way that almost all of the thousands of Palestinians in your custody have been? Except that he’s one soldier and your putting thousands of civilians in concentration camps?

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 21, 2011, 9:22 am

        “In other words,”

        Wrong.

        “terrorism is unjustified, but complaining about it is just as unjustified.”

        No, what is unjustified is a complaint about the tactic of one’s opponent when one’s own actions are worse.

        “By the same token, it could be said that neither side has a right to complain about injustices against it, because it inflicts pain and injustice on the other side.”

        One could say that, but I beleive that they would be wrong, because it is a false equivalency. Israeli terrorism against the Palestinian people has been worse in every possible respect, from the completeness of its grip on the victim’s lives, to the number killed, to its on-going nature, to its brutality, to its basic injustice, to its base motivatations.

        I do think that an individual Israeli, who is innocent of his state’s actions (i.e., refused or did not serve in the IDF, who only votes for party promoting full Palestinian liberation, who is actively working for that liberation) would be justified in complaining if they, personally, are touched by terrorism committed by the other side. But not the Israeli people as a whole. They, alone, have the power to end this conflict. They choose not to.
        I’d say the exact opposite. Both sides have legitimate grievances, and both sides have the right to express them.

      • es1982
        October 21, 2011, 12:20 pm

        I do think that an individual Israeli, who is innocent of his state’s actions (i.e., refused or did not serve in the IDF, who only votes for party promoting full Palestinian liberation, who is actively working for that liberation) would be justified in complaining if they, personally, are touched by terrorism committed by the other side. But not the Israeli people as a whole. They, alone, have the power to end this conflict. They choose not to.

        Let’s see if I can complain if I or one of my loved ones is blown up by a bomb on a bus or a Qassam on my house:

        * I’ve participated in Israeli-Palestinian dialogue groups, though I’ve never participated in a demonstration against the occupation – borderline

        * I voted for Meretz in the last elections, and before that voted for Labor and Shinui – I guess that’s borderline again.

        * I’ve served in the IDF, though not in the West Bank, Gaza or East Jerusalem, and neither was I in a combat unit – disqualified.

        So, it is unjust to kill me, but I can’t complain. Do I understand you correctly?

      • jon s
        October 21, 2011, 3:51 pm

        Deliberately targetting innocent civilians is wrong, on both sides of the conflict. Anyone who does so -Israeli or Palestinian- should be prosecuted and made to pay for his or her crime. That’s always been my position – and es1982′s ,as I understand it, and it’s the only position which is morally sound.
        Woody says that only certain Israelis – based on a political litmus-test- are “justified in complaining” about terrorism.
        Now let’s think of the victims of 9/11: among the casualties were investment bankers and janitors, policemen and firemen, airplane passengers and crews, Americans and tourists. According to Woody’s concept, we should check the political and ideological identity of all those victims – were they liberals or conservatives, Democrats or Republicans, were they pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian- and decide accordingly whether or not they or their families deserve our sympathy and are “justified in complaining” about terrorism.
        Absolutely absurd, of course. Just like Woody’s distinctions.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 21, 2011, 4:01 pm

        “So, it is unjust to kill me, but I can’t complain. Do I understand you correctly?”

        No, you clearly do not.

        And, as an initial matter, I used, “i.e.” rather than “e.g.” in my previous post. That was an error on my part. How much of your statement was in reaction to that mistake, I cannot say.

        My argument is nothing more than a statement about when I think it is proper for one to complain about antoher’s tactics being “valid.” Nothing more. If Israel is willing to use terroristic tactics against Palestinians (and they clearly are) they have no basis, in my view, to complain when terroristic tactics are used against them.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 21, 2011, 4:15 pm

        “Deliberately targetting innocent civilians is wrong, on both sides of the conflict.”

        Agreed, as far as it goes. But it is false to condition it on “deliberately targetting” because it excuses from prosecution the gross disregard for human life, which is the hallmark of the Israeli occupation and attacks on Palestinians. That is as bad, if not worse, than deliberate targeting can be.

        “Woody says that only certain Israelis – based on a political litmus-test- are ‘justified in complaining’ about terrorism.”

        Correct. If an Israeli spends a career carrying out terror attacks against Palestinians (either directly as a trigger man or indirectly as a politician) then he has no grounds to complain when he is repaid in the same coin and suffers a terror attack on himself. (Note, here, that I am making no statement about the morality of the act. Rather, I am making a statement about the hypocracy of the actor.)

        “According to Woody’s concept, we should check the political and ideological identity of all those victims… and decide accordingly whether or not they or their families deserve our sympathy and are ‘justified in complaining’ about terrorism.”

        False. I am simply saying that if one of those people spend his career inflicting terror on Arabs in Arab world, for example, that he would have no grounds to complain about the fact that he, himself, suffered a terror attack.

        The “deserve our sympathy” stuff is stuff you made up.

        “Absolutely absurd, of course. Just like Woody’s distinctions.”

        LOL. Don’t blame me because you have bad reading comprehension.

      • Cliff
        October 21, 2011, 4:17 pm

        When Israel bombed a Palestinian police graduation ceremony (or something along those lines), the justification was that these police officers were members of Hamas.

        They were police officers though. Just like an IDF soldier can also be a student, a teacher, a mother, etc.

        I also think targeting civilians is wrong. I hope that Zionists are able to condemn military operations in which the civilian population will mostly suffer as well.

        That is the ONLY meaningful condemnation to make. I’m fairly certain that only cartoon characters (and both sides have them) will (openly) promote deliberate attacks on civilians.

        I think we should avoid these pseudo-scientific discussions on which Israeli is culpable for the crimes of the occupation – in spite of the truth to the implications, I disagree with context of this qualifier.

        What we should be discussing is reality in reality, Israel kills far more civilians than Hamas. Israel destroys hospitals, schools, farms, homes, etc.

        Do the two Zionists here support collective punishment? Not the mockery of the concept when used by the Nakba/settlements-supporter, Dick Witty, but the actual physical suffering of an entire population.

        Lets take about that because that is bad enough. No need for hyperbole or Godwin’s law.

      • Chaos4700
        October 21, 2011, 4:25 pm

        Jon, stop exploiting 9/11, you disgusting opportunist.

      • annie
        October 21, 2011, 4:39 pm

        According to Woody’s concept, we should check the political and ideological identity of all those victims – were they liberals or conservatives, Democrats or Republicans, were they pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian- and decide accordingly whether or not they or their families deserve our sympathy and are “justified in complaining” about terrorism.

        it still amazes me, even tho we’ve been thru this time and again, when people would rather argue strawmen instead of what a poster actually said.

        speaking of the victims of 9/11, we are at war in afghanistan right? so what part of US policy makes drone attacks over afghan villages ok yet if they attacked an american city it would be not ok, if we are at war?

        naturally i don’t think they should but that is what happens in war and that’s what we supported in gaza and lebanon and all over the place. frankly it is a miracle they haven’t attacked us over here in retaliation.

      • annie
        October 21, 2011, 4:44 pm

        woody basically made the same argument larry defner made.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 21, 2011, 5:06 pm

        “it still amazes me, even tho we’ve been thru this time and again, when people would rather argue strawmen instead of what a poster actually said.”

        thanks, annie.

      • annie
        October 21, 2011, 5:15 pm

        anytime woody. it’s their job to inflame the conversation so when things don’t pan out for them one day they come back and litter up the site. i’m about to pounce on one any minute for his diversions.

      • annie
        October 21, 2011, 5:42 pm

        82, for your edification wrt the trajectory of this argument and my question to jon.

        saying that the attack was in response to Israel’s assassination ten days earlier in Nablus of the two leading Hamas commanders Jamal Mansour and Omar Mansour as well as six civilians including two children.

        civilians matter, as well as commanders. and how many 20 and 22 year old israelis have killed innocent palestinian civilians? do you call them heroes? or terrorists?

        now, let’s see how jon responded…shall we. let’s just see how team i played this:

        I can recall previous prisoners , and prisoner exchanges, but I don’t remember any prisoner who so touched the heartstrings of the Israeli people as Gilad Shalit. Something about that boy – maybe his obvious shyness, gentleness , vulnaribilty- moved so many people , as never before. Add to that the noble and anguished campaign mounted by his family

        violins anyone? iow it was ignored by team i. and then yoni pipes in:

        annie, so suicide bombing is a valid act of war?

        and then i am supposed to chomp on the bit. where team i wants to go? i’m not pavlov’s dog. there’s no relation to what i originally posted and my questions to the response, jon totally ignored it as i pointed out later:

        i noticed both eee and jon and yoni completely ignored the point of that post. too hot to handle? the ol palestinians are people too post.

        so now your chomping on my heels w/this BS:

        Annie, I find it disturbing that you just can’t find it in yourself to condemn Palestinian terrorism.

        go check the archives, i don’t perform for you. i asked a question and it was ignored for two days until team i got woddy to chomp on their diversion and still it was not answered. do we call them terrorists? no. and the chances the idf are going to prosecute and sentence an idf killer of palestinian civilians is absurd. it’s an occupation for god’s sake and an apartheid justice system.

        Let me do something I doubt you’ll ever do – acknowledge that both sides can do terrible, wrong things.

        i am not interested in your version of a both sides argument at the moment rehashing crap we covered before. how about you address the post yoni launched off on in some asinine diversionary manner.

        how many 20 and 22 year old israelis have killed innocent palestinian civilians? do you call them heroes? or terrorists?

        if what you claim is true acknowledge that both sides can do terrible, wrong things then what about the people who murdered Hamas commanders Jamal Mansour and Omar Mansour as well as six civilians including two children? were they terrorists?

        if both sides can do terrible wrong things which wrong terrible thing has a soldier of israel done? any? and what murders of israeli’s have taken place by palestinian gunmen that you find equivalent to the idf extrajudicial killing that include ‘collateral damage’ of murdered palestinian civilians? which murders of israels do you consider palestinian heroes worthy of blvds in palestine being named after them?

        just name these israeli idf terrorists and palestinian heroes who kill israelis. just flip the coin for us since we’ve been fed decades of msm calling murderers heroes while on the opposite side they are called terrorists.

        thanks

        psLet me do something I doubt you’ll ever do –

        oh big friggin deal. like i said, not. your. dog. let others sucker will chomp on that bone. you should learn to use the archives.

      • es1982
        October 21, 2011, 7:27 pm

        Annie, if those who attacked the Hamas commanders knew there were children and civilians there, they shouldn’t have attacked. That isn’t a heroic action.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 21, 2011, 10:53 pm

        “Annie, if those who attacked the Hamas commanders knew there were children and civilians there, they shouldn’t have attacked. ”

        And would support the prosecution for those Israelis who ordered this strike without first determining whether these civilians and children were present? In other words, do you believe that an indifference to such a possibility is fine, so long as there isn’t actual knowledge beforehand?

      • annie
        October 22, 2011, 12:15 am

        Annie, if those who attacked the Hamas commanders knew there were children and civilians there, they shouldn’t have attacked.

        fine. iow if hamas does no research, doesn’t ‘know’ children and civilians are present, their acts are not terrorist in nature? if they succeed in carrying out an attack of israeli idf in their home (commander or whatever), not ‘knowing’ their families are present they are not terrorists? or they are, and the murderers of the kids who motivated the retaliation of the suicide bomber are terrorists too? does it go both ways? does the idf carry out terrorist operations?

      • es1982
        October 22, 2011, 8:40 am

        And would support the prosecution for those Israelis who ordered this strike without first determining whether these civilians and children were present? In other words, do you believe that an indifference to such a possibility is fine, so long as there isn’t actual knowledge beforehand?

        It depends on whether or not there was actual indifference – whether they mistakenly believed there were no civilians or didn’t care.

      • es1982
        October 22, 2011, 8:46 am

        Annie, Hamas regularly targets civilians, including children in its suicide bombings and rocket fire on Israeli towns in the south. They’d never take any precautions to make sure children aren’t harmed. Israel takes such precautions regularly.

      • Chaos4700
        October 22, 2011, 1:53 pm

        Gosh, if only Hamas has laser guided missiles and the most precise weapons American taxpayer money can by, then NO children would die like when Israel goes out on killing sprees, right es?

      • Shingo
        October 23, 2011, 6:28 am

        Annie, Hamas regularly targets civilians, including children in its suicide bombings and rocket fire on Israeli towns in the south.

        False.

        First of all, Hamas called for an end to suicide attacks in 2006, and there have been none at all since 2008, so there is nothing regular about them.

        Secondly, the rockets have no guidance systems on them so they couldn’t targets civilians even if they wanted to.

        They’d never take any precautions to make sure children aren’t harmed.

        Israel certianly don’t which explains why the majority of their victims are indeed children.

    • Mooser
      October 19, 2011, 4:45 pm

      “What’s the psychological term where you have to insert yourself into every situation on a personal basis?”

      Oh, that’s easy, Biorabbi. Just describe your participation at Mondoweiss to any board-certified psychologist, and I’m sure he’ll come up with the term in half a second.

      • Taxi
        October 19, 2011, 5:24 pm

        “What’s the psychological term where you have to insert yourself into every situation on a personal basis?” – Biorabbi

        I believe it’s called Israelism.

  15. American
    October 18, 2011, 9:46 pm

    I thing this is good place to insert this letter. If America ever comes backs to itself and Palestines are ever free we should erect a Statue to Mohammed Bouazizi to replace the Statue of Liberty.

    Letter to a dead man about the occupation of hope

    By Rebecca Solnit

    Dear young man who died on the fourth day of this turbulent 2011, dear Mohammed Bouazizi,

    I want to write you about an astonishing year — with three months yet to run. I want to tell you about the power of despair and the margins of hope and the bonds of civil society.

    I wish you could see the way that your small life and large death became a catalyst for the fall of so many dictators in what is known as the Arab Spring.

    We are now in some sort of an American Fall. Civil society here has suddenly hit the ground running, and we are all headed toward a future no one imagined when you, a young Tunisian vegetable seller capable of giving so much, who instead had so much taken from you, burned yourself to death to protest your impoverished and humiliated state.

    You lit yourself on fire on December 17, 2010, exactly nine months before Occupy Wall Street began. Your death two weeks later would be the beginning of so much. You lit yourself on fire because you were voiceless, powerless, and evidently without hope. And yet you must have had one small hope left: that your death would have an impact; that you, who had so few powers, even the power to make a decent living or protect your modest possessions or be treated fairly and decently by the police, had the power to protest. As it turned out, you had that power beyond your wildest dreams, and you had it because your hope, however diminished, was the dream of the many, the dream of what we now have started calling the 99%.

    And so Tunisia erupted and overthrew its government, and Egypt caught fire, as did Bahrain, Syria, Yemen, and Libya, where the nonviolent protests elsewhere turned into a civil war the rebels have almost won after several bloody months. Who could have imagined a Middle East without Ben Ali of Tunisia, without Mubarak, without Gaddafi? And yet here we are, in the unimaginable world. Again. And almost everywhere.

    The Spanish young whose future had been sold out to benefit corporations and their 1% were nicknamed the Indignados, and they lived in the plazas of Spain this summer. Occupied Madrid, like Occupied Tahrir Square, preceded Occupy Wall Street.’

    read the whole letter at:
    link to warincontext.org

  16. Walid
    October 19, 2011, 5:32 am

    Since this is about the release of prisoners, it should be noted that the ratio of 1027:1 is an exception to what has been happening in the past.

    If we tally all separate 40 or so prisoner swaps that happened between Israel and its neighbours, we find that since 1949 and including the Shalit deal, there was a total of about 30,950 live and dead Arabs swapped for about 1153 live and dead Israelis. This yields a ratio of about 27:1 which is still high but a lot less dramatic or biblical in proportion than the 1027:1 that has Israelis in shock these days. Most numbers taken from Jewish Virtual Library with others omitted by the JVL taken from CBC News.

    Biggie swaps occurred in 1949 that involved 6306 Arabs for 885 Israelis; in 1956 that involved 5500 Egyptians for 4 Israelis; in 1967 with 585 Arabs for 16 Israelis; in 1973 with 8372 Egyptians for 242 Israelis; in 1978 with 4700 mostly Palestinians from the Ansar concentration camp for 242 Israelis; in 1985 for 1150 Palestinians for 3 Israelis; and of course the Shalit swap of 1027 for 1 Israeli.

    • annie
      October 19, 2011, 6:08 am

      here’s how i look at it. what percentage of prisoners are in the exchange? an equal exchange of 100% from each side is an equal exchange. israel having more power and opportunity to abduct or arrest has more prisoners of course. hamas/palestine exchanged 100% of their israeli prisoners while israeli only exchanged less than 20%. a hard bargain would have demanded israel release all their prisoners. israel came out ahead on the exchange.

      • Walid
        October 19, 2011, 6:21 am

        Annie, Israel learned its lesson the hard way from Hizbullah and was happy to be rid of all its Lebanese prisoners and cadavres just to get Hizbullah out of its hair. It still abducts the odd shepherd near the border at least once a year but it releases them the next day or so because of Hizbullah’s everpresent threat.

        Now the Hamas people are asking for a few more Israeli prisoners to get some Palestinian ones freed. Someone here was asking about Marwan Barghouti yesterday. It’s looking like he’ll be released with the next batch in a couple of months to give Abbas some face-saving credit and keep him in power to continue being a nice guy to Israel. Barghouti would be the only formidable opponent to Hamas; Abbas, Israel and the US know it, so expect Barghoutti to be out soon.

      • annie
        October 19, 2011, 3:19 pm

        i’ve read so much speculation about barghouti’s release i am afraid to get my hopes up. i hope you are right. it would be a glorious day if he was released.

  17. RobertB
    October 19, 2011, 10:37 am

    UNICEF calls for Israel to release all Palestinian child prisoners

    “East Jerusalem, 17 October 2011 (UNICEF) – UNICEF appealed today to the Israeli Government to release all Palestinian children currently in Israeli military detention, following the announcement that they will release Palestinian prisoners as part of a prisoner swap deal. As of 1 October, 164 Palestinians under 18 year of age were detained by Israeli authorities, most of them under charges of stone throwing.”

    link to councilforthenationalinterest.org

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