A friend writes:
On the Times "kill list" story--has anyone asked what the hell David Alexrod was doing in the room in the Tuesday sessions when they picked the people to kill? Karl Rove was nearly indicted for picking U.S. attorneys who should be sacked; this seems far worse. From the Times story [emphasis mine]:
David Axelrod, the president’s closest political adviser, began showing up at the “Terror Tuesday” meetings, his unspeaking presence a visible reminder of what everyone understood: a successful attack would overwhelm the president’s other aspirations and achievements.
And look at this spooky little interchange on Morning Joe--all the liberals approving of Obama's kill list, and praising his deeply moving assumption of "moral responsibility" for the drone strikes (with no oversight, no positive and public rules, hence no chance for any but symbolic responsibility). John Heilemann is wired and giggly, Mika Brzezinski has no doubts at all, the third guy just talks about how well it will spin and Tina Brown is selling her magazine. Only Scarborough is troubled-- and he doesn't back down. He has the guts to make the comparison with torture, and keeps slowly shaking his head. He makes it a point about the decisions being taken in the wrong office; he neglects the lack of oversight and accountability, which matters more. Nevertheless, I think this is the real division in American politics, under all the other divisions. The morally dead who only care about "blowback," against those who care about injustice itself and see some relation between injustice and unchecked power.
we’re in Bizarro World nowadays (as Justin Raimondo calls it) where old norms have been chucked out the window and our national moral compass can no longer find North, and we have become inured to the endless erosion of our rights by the plutocracy … yes, it seems very weird that Axelrod would be there, but then again, Axelrod since the beginning of the Obama ascendancy seems to have had full access everywhere except the bathroom
It’s a fascinating report, above all for the way it show that real leaders who wield real power and have to answer for real failures that result in their own people dying, more aften than not behave differently than they thought they would when the had none of the power and responsibility. Nothing surprising about that, of course, but the transformation of Barack Obama is an unusually clear example.
It also shows the futility of using legal tools to resolve moral issues. Lawyers interpret laws according to their needs; when a lawyer becomes President, he’ll find legal justifications for the decisions he feels he has to make, not the other way around.
Which is the way it should be.
“It also shows the futility of using legal tools to resolve moral issues. Lawyers interpret laws according to their needs; when a lawyer becomes President, he’ll find legal justifications for the decisions he feels he has to make, not the other way around.
Which is the way it should be.”
Exactly, just like Nixon.
But wait, you’re saying that if the president decides he needs to act above the law, he should, and you agree with that? Which is moral – following the law or breaking the law? Should we then also qustion G-d’s laws based on that arguement?
Moral of the story, don’t elect a lawyer?
Stalin was no lawyer. He was a failed seminary student. But Chris Floyd credibly compares what he did to this death panel of Obama’s: The NYT’s Love Letter to Death Squads:
It’s interesting to remember that the U.S – during the first(arguably) neoconservative jaunt under Reagan – were all over ‘death squads’ in Central America(John Negreponte, Elliot Abrahms). Even going as far a writing a ‘counterterrorist’ booklet for Contra rebels that outlined methods(specific methods aimed at ‘soft targets’) of intimidating local populations out of supporting the ‘leftist’Sandindistas(sp;sorry!). 100 000′s murdered, including decapitating local dissidents and putting their heads on spears -on top of raping and murdering nuns and priests etc..
“It also shows the futility of using legal tools to resolve moral issues.”
Well, winnie has finally said something I agree with. But I’ve only come to agree with it lately. ..the powers don’t go by laws any longer. If they don’t like one they get rid of it, and if they need one to do something they make one up for that purpose.
What I would say about the ‘Kill List’ is …if they have one for us, we the people need our own kill list for them too.
You’re assuming that Obama wasn’t a stealth candidate of the plutocracy and military-industrial complex all along.
Ugh, creepy Winnica.
Hitler spent the 30s destroying German civil society, in preparation for events in the 1940s.
The way it should be, right?
Right?
theres actually a pretty good scene in the movie “W” where the top brass are in the ‘situation room’ – funny how thats the title of a “news” show, eh?- and Rove, aka turd blossom is there, saying their plans for Iraq are really all about re-election. Colin Powell (in the movie) asks just what the hell Rove is doing there. It was a really dark scene.
Axelrod being there doesnt bother me, I expect sht like that – what bothers me is the blatant hypocrisy from Obama supporters ( I include Weiss here as well, for sure, sorry Phil) – this guy is doing things a Republican president could only dream of, and with hardly a peep from the people who were so “outraged” over comparatively minor things like illegal wiretapping and water boarding – Obama has cats summarily executed DAILY and no one says sht. With a “left” like this, who needs a right? Division? Nah.
George Marshall and James Forrestal were most annoyed that Truman’s political adviser Clark Clifford was attending policy meetings and imposing policy on them with respect to Palestine/Israel.
Personally approving the list,
hell he should start pulling the trigger as well.
I am sure they could rig him up a drone remote near the oval office.
Someone has created a “Don’t Kill Me List” petition at the White House site. As of today, it has almost 1,900 signatures. I was number 955. Teddy Partridge at firedoglake turned me on to the existence of the list yesterday evening. They’re hoping for 25,000 signatures.
link to wwws.whitehouse.gov
Prescient Philip.
I’ve said before Obama is not a President but an elected self-appointed King. Granting himself the right to have American citizens killed with absolutely no judicial oversight or due process has taken America way back in time – to it’s absolute monarchy British roots.
When he feels like it Obama says “off with his head”, and the person is killed. In other words: fuck the Declaration of Independence, fuck the constitution, fuck the bill of rights – all of it worthless, now a pathetic charade.
I’m not even American and it outrages me.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
3,378 signatures now and it’s all over twitter. Michael Moore has a million+ followers and is asking people to sign it…
The most popular open petition only has 101,000 signatures. I can see this easily exceeding that.
RE: “look at this spooky little interchange on Morning Joe–all the liberals approving of Obama’s kill list, and praising his deeply moving assumption of “moral responsibility” for the drone strikes (with no oversight, no positive and public rules, hence no chance for any but symbolic responsibility)” ~ Weiss
SEE: How extremism is normalized, by Glenn Greenwald, Salon, 5/30/12
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to salon.com
you sit in your chair, your adviser is giving you a name, a picture, some details, you say: “kill him”, unreal, scary, not too mention the collatarel dammage, “uninvolved persons” we call them here.
at least when Israel did it, busses and cafes exploded routinely in our streets.
when Bush did it you sent him to Hague, Obama you sent to Stockholm, typical leftists hippocrites, morally dead indeed.
To be fair they sent him to Stockholm before he started approving hit lists.
I actually find the whole idea of giving Nobel to politicians
revolting.
Oleg, if Obama can win it then surely anyone can. So just in case your name comes up, it’s Oslo for the peace prize. I wouldn’t like you getting on the wrong plane and ruining your big day.
No no spare me that honor i prefer not to be included on the same
list as Arafat or Peres or Rabin or mother Teresa for that matter.
Except you don’t say “kill him”. You say “capture him if you can do it safely, if not, then kill him”.
Speaking of Stockholm, Hillary Clinton is in Denmark at the moment and is scheduled to visit Sweden this weekend. Right after the British High Court’s decision about extraditing Assange.
Great catch Phil on Axelrod. You beat Glen Greenwald to it.
The image this conjures in my mind is of a giant skating rink flanking the killing fields, with intent judges scattered strategically all around the rails. As the warriors kill, they play up to the judges to make sure they rack up some good technical marks as well as solid “artistic impression” scores.
Glenn Greenwald in his commentary on this news focused on Axelrod’s presence: Obama the Warrior:
Speaking of Glenn Greenwald, his latest piece, on the British court’s latest decision on Assange’s extradition, is worth a read: A reminder about WikiLeaks.
Even more impressive is Craig Murray’s piece on this, Why Eurosceptics Should Back Assange, as Murray, a former British ambassador, appears to have particular expertise on international and treaty law.
Oops, looks like Glenn was on it first after all. And there I was, giving Phil first dibs. That’s what you get for not reading through the links. Thanks lysias.
My analogy to the figure skating rink stands however. There are no firsts or lasts on imagination. All original, all first.
Who better to certify that all of the targets were Muslims.
“Who better to certify that all of the targets were Muslims.”
Good one!
I hope Shmuel responds to my question about gassut on this thread a few minutes ago: link to mondoweiss.net
Because if the single word means what Shmuel implies, then it fits what Phil observed on Morning Joe.
Because if the single word means what Shmuel implies, then it fits what Phil observed on Morning Joe.
In Israeli Hebrew, “gassut” just means rudeness/crudeness, as does even the expression “gassut ru’ah” (lit. coarseness of the spirit). In classical/Rabbinic Hebrew, especially in an ethical context, the spiritual aspect I mentioned would be foremost. In Israeli Hebrew, that would be “gassut ha-lev” (coarseness of the heart), which has a kind of archaic, religious feeling to it.
Morning after Obama is elected, and he’s talking over the transition with the military:
O: ‘I’m gonna end all those stupid wars and Bush era policies!’
Military: ‘Don’t do that! Sure it was a total screw-up when Bush was President, but now that a genius, and incredible administrator, and a man with a super-human yet compassionate sense of justice, (and if you’ll excuse me Mr. President, one so handsome with such a great singing voice) is in charge, a real Constitutional scholar like you, why these policies will work great. You’re the only guy who can do it!’
O: ‘Gosh, you military really do like me, don’t you. And you understand me so well!’
Military: ‘Just trust us Mr. President. We’d never, ever do anything to make you look bad or catch you in a cross. No, we want you to get all the credit!’
O: Gee, Thanks guys. You know, I think you’re right. I am a genius, and the only man in the world fit to go through lists, look at slides and qualified to decide who will die. Thanks for recognising it, and I know I can trust you guys.
Military, after leaving room: My God, what a chump, we played him like cheap violin!’
Bush Pere (as VP and P) and Reagan had the same Kill Lists, both domestic and foreign. I knew one of the guys who carried out his domestic ‘eliminations” for him (Bush Pere); the guy admitted it freely after he resigned. Saw the photo of him in the White House with his badges sitting in VP Bush’s chair waiting for instructions. Saw his massive collection of Glocks.
A question I have: could Obama be making this practice public so that the public will react?