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One-night stand with unhappy ending propelled Koestler protagonist to Palestine

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Koestler
Koestler

A month back I ran an excerpt from the late Arthur Koestler’s memoir in which he explained his attraction to Zionism as a young man in Vienna as stemming from his belief that Jews in Europe were a “sick race,” divorced from the land.

After I ran that piece, a friend pointed out to me that Koestler (1905-1983) was a fabulist. You just can’t believe much he said on a personal front.

But Koestler was a good storyteller and an important journalist and social thinker; so I have kept reading him in the face of the fabulism. And the following excerpt is from a Zionist novel called Thieves in the Night (1946), which is valuable for its descriptions of kibbutz life and the birth of the Stern gang.

The main character of the book is Joseph, a half-Jewish Englishman, who has come out to build the land in the late 1930s. And what is Joseph’s motivation?

Koestler relates a bedtime story that looms in Joseph’s mind as the “Incident,” an event he is too ashamed to disclose to others, but that has played a major influence on his life. At Oxford in the 1920s, Joseph fell in love with Lily, a pretty blonde divorcee five years his senior who has a fondness for fascists. Joseph and Lily got along famously till they went to a hunt ball and got drunk. 

He had known Lily for almost two years, was humbly in love with her, had talked to her poetry, sex and eternity, and had never kissed her lips. After the ball, without transition, he became the lover for a wildly unreal and elusive hour, of a woman so completely transformed that he kept stammering her name aloud to convince herself of her identity. Then came the awakening and the crash. Even now, years later, he grew hot with humiliation at the thought of it. In her dark room she had switched the bedside lamp on to look for a cigarette. The sudden light had revealed their nudity, and with it the sign of the Covenant on his body, the stigma of the race incised into his flesh. The horror in her face made him at first think that she had discovered in him the symptoms of some repulsive disease; then, in a voice icy with contempt she had accused him of infamy and deception, cross-examined him about his ancestry, ordered him to get dressed and clear out of her room. At last the reason dawned on him.

I think this goes under the category of unbelievable sex scenes, or Zionist malarkey. But maybe I’m wrong?

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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45 Responses

  1. kalki
    August 14, 2012, 12:22 pm

    There was a recent case brought by an Israeli lady against an Israeli Palestinian man who presented himself as a Jew and made love to her. Such was her subsequent revulsion that she took him to court. I wish I had the link to it.

    • Woody Tanaka
      August 14, 2012, 1:01 pm

      “There was a recent case brought by an Israeli lady against an Israeli Palestinian man who presented himself as a Jew and made love to her.”

      No, he didn’t. She assumed he was a Jew and when she found out he wasn’t, she then cried “rape.”

    • FreddyV
      August 14, 2012, 1:07 pm

      The guy is in jail for that.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186

      My take: A guy picks up some chick and bones her the same day he meets her.

      No one seemed to question her morals………

      • MLE
        August 14, 2012, 4:50 pm

        Well if she was sleeping with a Jewish guy, she’d be potentially creating more Jews in Israel. If she sleeps with an Arab guy, shes contributing to the “demographic crisis”.

        One of the biggest concerns of racists are the “others” interest in their women.

      • ColinWright
        August 15, 2012, 12:14 am

        “One of the biggest concerns of racists are the “others” interest in their women.”

        Definitely. Conversely, though, there seems to be a positive attraction to having sex with women from other ethnic groups.

        It’s all very atavistic. I’ll even go so far as to submit that if most of us are really honest with ourselves, we’re considerably happier seeing a male of whatever group we’re part of with a female of another group than vice-versa.

        The difference in Israel, of course, is that this attitude receives legal sanction — somewhat disguised legal sanction, but legal sanction nevertheless.

      • Mooser
        August 15, 2012, 1:21 pm

        “we’re considerably happier seeing a male of whatever group we’re part of with a female of another group than vice-versa.”

        Much easier for me, Colin. As a married Jewish man, I simply do not raise my eyes in the presence of a woman to whom I am not married. And with the cross-dressing and gender-bending goes on these days, I have to be even more careful! I’ve seen some nice arches and ankles, tho. Not to mention toes like ten tiny perfect shrimps of graduated sizes.

        But I’m glad to know what makes you happy.

      • Mooser
        August 15, 2012, 1:30 pm

        “Well if she was sleeping with a Jewish guy, she’d be potentially creating more Jews in Israel.”

        That’s what I keep telling ’em! I even submitted my very own strength-through-joy program (but being careful to avoid that exact phrase) to the Israeli Embassy, but got no response. No answers, no photos, not a single person sent me their sister’s or Mom’s phone number or e-mail. You would think Israelis would care about solving the demographic crisis. But you know, I don’t think they really do. Yes, I sent proof I was Jewish, but maybe the vial got broken.

    • Elisabeth
      August 15, 2012, 5:05 am

      It seems to have been a bit more complicated. Please read her testimony.
      http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/from-rape-to-racism-how-and-why-did-charges-change-against-arab-man-1.314319
      She seems terribly disturbed and naive, but with a background like that maybe you guys should reserve your judgment.

      • Mooser
        August 15, 2012, 1:35 pm

        Are you talking about “Lilly” or the “lady” in Israel? If it’s the Israeli lady, nobody is criticising her, I can almost guarantee that most people here think women can sleep with whomever they like. (except me, I think they should sleep with whomsoever I like…)
        And the more disturbed an naive they are, the better we like ’em!

        No one is judging here, it’s the Israeli court and lega….oh never mind Eliszabeth, yeah, we’re all calling her a slut. Might as well give you something you can understand.

      • Mooser
        August 15, 2012, 1:37 pm

        On the other hand, is the testimony pretty salacious? Lubricious? Hubba, hubba, here I come.

      • Elisabeth
        August 16, 2012, 2:20 pm

        The claim you guys all ran for was that there was consensual sex and that the only reason why the woman later called ‘rape’ was because the guy had hidden the fact that he was a hideous Arab.

        (AND she was a slut of course: “My take: A guy picks up some chick and bones her the same day he meets her. No one seemed to question her morals………” Did I hear you disagree?)

        That story proves to be complete nonsense. She was raped.

        Mooser: “Eliszabeth, yeah, we’re all calling her a slut. Might as well give you something you can understand.”

        You have turned into somewhat of a bully on these threads, Mooser.

        Mooser: “the more disturbed an naive they are, the better we like ‘em!

        Her father began sexually abusing her when she was 6, and later sent her to work as a prostitute. Much of her youth was spent in boarding schools. As a teenager, she worked as a prostitute and started abusing drugs, and at one point she lived on the street. None of this ended her father’s abuse. Just a month before her encounter with Kashur, her father sexually assaulted her again, and she fled to a shelter for young women at risk.

        Mooser: “On the other hand, is the testimony pretty salacious? Lubricious? Hubba, hubba, here I come. ”

        If you enjoy reading about an unscrupulous opportunist forcing himself inside a child-like abused girl, be my guest Mooser.

        “He took my pants and underpants off,” B. says. “All this happened by force; I didn’t agree to anything … Then he took my clothes off; he then put saliva on his penis and there was, like, full penetration – this was not, as he says, with consent. He put me down on the floor, and then he started to kiss my breasts, and then, like, I asked that he stop, and I tried to push him away, but he pressured me with his hands. When I tried to push him with my hand on his stomach, then what had already happened once happened again, this was at a later stage; he was inside me, and then he said that if I kept quiet and stopped trying to resist him, it would be over more quickly, and he wouldn’t, like, use force. But I resisted, and it happened by force. “According to B.’s testimony, Kashur remained on top of her for some time, and then got up and walked away, leaving her naked. Alone in the stairwell, B. started to cry.
        “I was really hysterical,” she testifies. At this stage, she noticed blood around her vagina, and that added to her fears. A few minutes later, her brother called, and B. asked him to contact a worker from the shelter. This woman quickly contacted B., who told her what happened.
        “She [the shelter worker] said I should stay calm, and contact Magen David Adom,” B. says. Later policemen came, and found B. in the stairwell. “When they arrived I was not wearing pants; that’s how I was, and I was in shock,” B. says. “The floor was dirty with blood, and I was really afraid to touch myself to see if I was okay; I was really scared.”
        Later, a Magen David Adom team showed up. B. states that she was later checked at Shaare Zedek Medical Center, Jerusalem, which documented scratches on her body. The prosecution’s files contain photographs of her wounds.

        Mooser, you are a jerk.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 16, 2012, 3:19 pm

        “That story proves to be complete nonsense. She was raped.”

        That is her story, his story is different. Who is telling the truth? Who knows. We weren’t there and we don’t even have access to all the evidence.

        But if you read the article by Lital Grossman, there are very serious and significant reasons to distrust her testimony: her lie to the police about being a virgin and the fact that she had made fourteen complaints with the police at various time, most for sex offenses, with some of them being dismissed over doubts about this woman’s veracity. Most striking to me was the fact that she claimed this history of serial sexual abuse, yet we are supposed to believe that she accompanied a strange man she just met into a secluded building. That simply does not ring true to me.

        But, neither you nor I was there. We are in no position to make any definitive judgment about the case. But if he raped her, then it is a travesty of justice for him to suggest otherwise. But if he did not, and the event occurs as he suggested, then it is also unjust for you to say she was raped.

      • Danaa
        August 16, 2012, 3:54 pm

        Mooser, you are a jerk

        And the so-called “girl” you are talking about, Elizabeth may well have been engaged in opportunistic prostitution, whether she admits to it or not. based on everything I read about this case, and her somewhat way-too-expertly put together story, it is possible to surmise that this encounter went awry due to disagreement about pay. The guy thought it was free, and was probably mighty annoyed to find out there would be payment involved. Once she realized he would not be paying, the woman probably did resist, as would any other self-respecting prostitute – all the more so a part-time one. The rest was pay-back on her part. From details of her past she seemed to have developed a system of bringing abuse charges – many probably playing out similarly.

        At least, in the case of the US secret service man who refused to pay up the agreed amount there was a taxi driver who could testify to the specific amount of the transaction, and a police who backed her up against the client who tried to stiff her – a result of the fact that prostitution was legal there.

        None of this takes the palestinian guy off the hook – the idea that a woman would be so interested in him that she’d go to an abandoned roof top for a quickie free of charge indicates a somewhat typical self-delusion or extreme naivite about the way things are.

        Also, none of this detracts from the sad circumstances of this woman’s life as recounted below, or changes the fact that she was herself abused early on. Psychologically, the repeated abuse claims she has been filing make sense as a way of reclaiming a measure of control, and perhaps also a way of denying to herself what she was actually engaging in (this is not apparently all that uncommon). This particular case simply acquired a “nationalistic” hue and the court seemed willing to throw the book at the guy because he was an Arab, not because he was a stupid jerk in heat.

      • ColinWright
        August 16, 2012, 4:42 pm

        Elizabeth says: “The claim you guys all ran for was that there was consensual sex and that the only reason why the woman later called ‘rape’ was because the guy had hidden the fact that he was a hideous Arab. ..”

        I think that if you read all the material on the case, what kicked the legal machinery into gear, and what made the court find that rape had taken place, was that an Arab had represented himself as a Jew and thus succeeded in committing miscegenation in a profoundly racist society.

        You may see it as a matter of male exploitation of the helpless female victim. That’s not what was motivating the Israeli police and courts.

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 5:21 pm

        “If you enjoy reading about an unscrupulous opportunist forcing himself inside a child-like abused girl, be my guest Mooser.”

        Is that any way to talk about the poor girl’s father? Hasn’t she got enough troubnle without you accising the man: “Her father began sexually abusing her when she was 6, and later sent her to work as a prostitute.”
        Elisabeth, that is an Israeli girl’s, I presume a Jewish girl’s Father you are talking about. Not content with that, you go on to say: “None of this ended her father’s abuse. Just a month before her encounter with Kashur, her father sexually assaulted her again, and she fled to a shelter for young women at risk.”

        Why are you slandering that poor girl’s Father this way? Hasn’t she got enough trouble?

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 5:52 pm

        “Her father began sexually abusing her when she was 6, and later sent her to work as a prostitute. Much of her youth was spent in boarding schools. As a teenager, she worked as a prostitute and started abusing drugs, and at one point she lived on the street. None of this ended her father’s abuse. Just a month before her encounter with Kashur, her father sexually assaulted her again, and she fled to a shelter for young women at risk.”

        Woody, that doesn’t sound like rape to you? Aggravated by her age, not to mention incest. Or maybe her Dad has palsy, and one of his hands accidently touched her breast, during an affectionate re-union after “boarding school” term? I guess it is hard to say. Gosh, I wonder what he got sentenced to, or was her father aquitted?

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 5:54 pm

        “Mooser, you are a jerk.”

        And a bully, but then I feel so much remorse! How could I have done that to my own daughter? Child-rape, pimping, and sending her to boarding school? What is wrong with me?

      • Elisabeth
        August 17, 2012, 5:40 am

        “I think that if you read all the material on the case, what kicked the legal machinery into gear, and what made the court find that rape had taken place, was that an Arab had represented himself as a Jew and thus succeeded in committing miscegenation in a profoundly racist society.”

        That is exactlywhere I do not agree. I thought so before too, but not no longer after I read this story.

        And Woody and Danaa, whether she lied or not is always hard to determine but not relevant here: The question is “was there reasonable ground to prosecute the man for rape”.

        Well yes, her claim and some physical evidence.

        You have to admit that this is very different from the way in which this incident has often been reported elsewhere and now here: She had a consensual quicky and then ‘cried rape’ on finding out her lover (or customer as Danaa believes) was a despised Arab.
        That is what I pointed out.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 17, 2012, 5:08 pm

        “And Woody and Danaa, whether she lied or not is always hard to determine but not relevant here:”

        I think that whether she lied or not is very relevant. Not just for the underlying matter, but for what it says about the legal system there. Do you really believe that if the exact same facts were true, but she was an Arab and he was a Jew that after these questions about her veracity came about that the prosecution would have done anything but drop the case like a sack of potatoes?? Do you really think they would have tried to hang a “rape by deception” charge??

        “You have to admit that this is very different from the way in which this incident has often been reported elsewhere”

        Actually, it’s pretty much what I expected: that the prosecution’s case went south and they decided to press the “deception” angle. (Of course, I had no idea HOW the case went bad. I wouldn’t have guessed this history.)

        “That is what I pointed out.”

        No, it isn’t. You directly and in no uncertain terms stated that she was raped and you based that solely on a excerpted part of her testimony (which means that you said with the same certainty that this man is a rapist.) Please don’t insult us by pretending that all you did was raise issues about the reporting, rather than about the underlying facts.

      • piotr
        August 19, 2012, 4:07 pm

        Indeed. Even as a joke, it is not to good:
        “And the more disturbed an naive they are, the better we like ‘em!”

        This is a bizarre case. Being an occasional prostitute, the girl was not “naive”. How did she consent to go with a stranger to a stairwell of a building under construction with nobody else present? That can be explain somehow, perhaps, but what is genuinely strange is that the prosecution did go for assault and forcible rape accusation even though they had “photographs of her wounds”. Thus I conjecture that her psychiatric history had some record of self-inflicting wounds.

        Thus the prosecution make the case from the testimony of the accused, however strange the case was (rape by deception). This “deception” reminds me a scene described by Lisa Tarachansky in which a guy in a bar, while talking with a girl claims to know Arabic, while he does not, which luckily for the girl was quickly revealed and she did not sleep with him. But suppose that she did not know Arabic?

    • Mooser
      August 15, 2012, 1:48 pm

      “who presented himself as a Jew and made love to her”

      I mean really, some people will do anything, no matter how low! If only she could have refused, but then, you know, demographic crisis, outnumbered-by-savages, all that. Guess she had no choice. It was a chance she had to take, for the sake of Zionism!

  2. ColinWright
    August 14, 2012, 3:05 pm

    It’s tacit enforcement of the Nuremberg Laws, basically.

  3. Mooser
    August 14, 2012, 6:36 pm

    “But maybe I’m wrong?”

    Are you kidding? You mean that’s never happened to you? Phil, you have to get out more! This is funny, because I had a similiar story (if quite down-rated used on me once. Guy told me he turned up at the parent’s house of his non-Jewish girlfriend, and they slammed the door in his Jewish face to illustrate the prevalance of anti-Semitism. I very timidly pointed out that schtupping a guy’s daughter in college, and then turning up at his house (sans daughter, no introduction) expecting the royal welcome and fatted calf was maybe not the best idea, but he insisted it was all anti-Semitism. He then went all chabad and now promotes real-estate projects to feed his eleven children. And everybody dresses the part. I wonder what his next act will be, oh well, I ran like hell, leaving not a wrack behind.

    If you ask me, Koestler’s story sounds well, apocrphyl, to put it nicely. I’ve heard many versions of it. Of course, “Lilly” knew that if she happened to drive Koestler into a murderous rage with sexual humiliation, one quick rap on the knuckles would put him in his place, huh?
    But I’m reserving judgement until Hophmi, Fredblogs, and giladg turn up.

  4. Mooser
    August 14, 2012, 6:44 pm

    “without transition, he became the lover for a wildly unreal and elusive hour, of a woman so completely transformed that he kept stammering her name aloud to convince herself of her identity.”

    I knew a girl like that once, but I lost her to another woman.

  5. ColinWright
    August 14, 2012, 11:27 pm

    I don’t really see the problem with the actual Koestler scene. It works as a metaphor for the whole notion of attempted assimilation and rejection that gave rise to Zionism — and the novel is about a Jew who becomes a Zionist. What’s wrong with it?

    • Mooser
      August 15, 2012, 1:23 pm

      “What’s wrong with it?”

      Becoming a Zionist? Plenty, actually. I know a blog you could read if you’re interested in finding out.

      • ColinWright
        August 16, 2012, 12:36 am

        ““What’s wrong with it?”

        Becoming a Zionist? Plenty, actually. I know a blog you could read if you’re interested in finding out.”

        Now we’re trading sides. I don’t see the original Zionists as bad people per se — from their point of view, what they were doing made sense.

        Of course, in the upshot, it led to something very evil (something that you may recall you objected to my having an ‘unqualified loathing’ for) — but that really doesn’t mean the original Zionists were bad people.

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 5:26 pm

        “I don’t see the original Zionists as bad people per se…”

        Don’t weaken, Colin! You are qualifying your loathing, and you know where that can lead! After all, some of the early Zionists, and their children, are still around. Are you going to let the Israelis use them as human shields? You start here, before you know it you’re sayin, ‘well the Israelis are no worse, well, than Americans, really’ and after that you’re trying to push your credit cards through the slot of a blue box.

      • ColinWright
        August 16, 2012, 11:33 pm

        Mooser says: “Don’t weaken, Colin! You are qualifying your loathing, and you know where that can lead! “

        No fear. My loathing for Israel is exactly as unqualified as it was. You and your displays of your compulsions are hardly likely to affect that.

      • Mooser
        August 19, 2012, 1:07 pm

        “You and your displays of your compulsions…”

        Let me make sure I have this right, Colin. You are talking about me, and my display of my compulsions? Are you, in a burst temerity I can only hope will subside with celerity, saying I have compulsions? Mr. Wright, you are wrong! I do not have “compulsions”, I have impulses. They’re not the same.

  6. Mooser
    August 15, 2012, 1:12 pm

    “The horror in her face made him at first think that she had discovered in him the symptoms of some repulsive disease; then, in a voice icy with contempt she had accused him of infamy and deception, cross-examined him about his ancestry, ordered him to get dressed and clear out of her room. At last the reason dawned on him.”

    And all those people keep on insisting that circumcision has not effect on sex performance! I’m glad the truth is finally coming out!

    • ColinWright
      August 16, 2012, 12:40 am

      “And all those people keep on insisting that circumcision has not effect on sex performance! I’m glad the truth is finally coming out!”

      I’m immediately curious to know how anyone could be sure of that either way.

      I mean, if circumcision occurred mid-way through one’s sexual career, there would be some basis for reaching a tentative conclusion, or even perhaps if one circumcised infants randomly without regard to any other factor, but otherwise…

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 5:31 pm

        Say, I know Colin, let’s surgically remove your lips! The ones on your mouth, I mean with full anasthetic, proper sterile procedure, dressings to heal, I don’t want you to get hurt. I bet you could probably eat for a while, maybe if you modified your diet you could live with it. Just so you couldn’t seal your mouth and its moisture and saliva. It wouldn’t kill you.

        But yes, everybody knows that sexual moisture is an icky girl-thing. Guys don’t have nothing to do with no moisture. And it’s indisputable that God gives us extra parts for our parents to slice off. So we can feel like we’ve perfected them, sculpted them into the image o’ God. (“We all need a trim!”)
        Think of the poor animals who have nobody to do this for them. Amazing they haven’t died of cancer or smegma or masturbation or something.
        Besides, it’s sort of nervous making to think you might have been sexually disadvantaged, and we know what to do about that. No goddamed kid is gonna out-stud me!
        Besides, it’s a nervous

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 5:45 pm

        “Besides, it’s a nervous….”

        -making to think that one is sexually dis-advantaged. Who needs that?

      • ColinWright
        August 16, 2012, 11:30 pm

        Now you’re just degenerating into aimless drivel. You’re going to have to do better than this if you want to infuriate me.

        …but then Weiss will send you another e-mail, won’t he? It’s pretty obvious what goes on, you know. I used to know somebody like you. I’ll have to tell you the story sometime.

      • Mooser
        August 19, 2012, 1:20 pm

        “Now you’re just degenerating into aimless drivel. You’re going to have to do better than this if you want to infuriate me.”

        He said, pounding the keyboard to show he isn’t infuriated.

        Now get hold of yourself Wright, and you better answer this question. Are you accusing Phil Weiss of exchanging e-mails with me pertaining to you and what goes on in the comment section? If you are, that is a serious charge of, at the least, really bad blog etiquette? Are you prepared to substantiate it?

        It is not, of course, the kind of charge which an infuriated man would make willy-nilly. And, who knows, maybe one of us is accidently CC’ing you all our correspondence. It happens, I’ve seen it.

        And what the hell are you on about, you dumb git? I don’t like circumcision, okay? I think it has about the same effect on male sex as removing your (mine, anybody’s) lips would have on your enjoyment and method of eating.
        I am not wishing a circumcision on you, and if you are circumcised, I have no idea what its effect has been on you. I simply proposed (proposing you as the subject, so hopefully you might think about it) a simple comparison. The inside of your mouth is not the same as the back of your hand or the sole of your foot. I’m simply an exponent of the idea that God and nature knows how to make us, and we take an awful chance screwing with it for no reason. Is there something offensive about that, to you personally? BTW, another commenter made the very astute observation that we could eliminate breast cancer in women by removing the “breast-buds” of infant female babies. Do you think that’s a good idea? It would have tremendous health benefits, and very few drawbacks. It’s just a little lump of cells.

        But aside from that, why don’t you tell us, “what goes on here”? Is there some sort of conspiracy against you. But if it was me, I wouldn’t trust a guy who does what you say Phil Weiss is doing for an “honest investigation” of the ME.

      • ColinWright
        August 19, 2012, 1:54 pm

        After a brief pause, you’re starting to get going again.

        As I say, you remind me of someone I once saw.

        And incidentally, “And what the hell are you on about, you dumb git?’ is pointlessly offensive, and pretty much gives me a hunting license — which I fully intend to use when you get yourself worked up enough to give me a really clear shot.

        …Going by what I’ve seen of your emotional cycle so far, that should come in a day or two. I may be off — but it’ll come. I doubt if you can actually control yourself.

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 5:42 pm

        “I’m immediately curious to know how anyone could be sure of that either way.”

        Just go find an uncircumcised friend (you might be surprised if you asked around, or maybe we should be looking at this from the other direction, I don’t know) and have a schvantz inspecting party, and see what you think. You look at his, and he looks at your’s and compare notes.

      • Mooser
        August 16, 2012, 6:04 pm

        Don’t worry, Colin, it won’t be any worse than what we do around here, sometimes.

      • Mooser
        August 17, 2012, 12:22 am

        “clothes off; he then put saliva on his penis and “

        Isn’t it tragic that peoples with so much in common should be each other’s enemies?

  7. Mooser
    August 15, 2012, 1:42 pm

    I hope this is a lesson to all! Auto-eroticism hardly ever (well, except possibly among those with multiple-religious-personality disorder) leads to scenes like this, and you always have a date on Saturday night!
    Don’t believe all that health-activist crap. Sex is never safe!

    • ColinWright
      August 17, 2012, 2:52 am

      Mooser says:

      ““Besides, it’s a nervous….”

      -making to think that one is sexually dis-advantaged. Who needs that?”

      “…clothes off; he then put saliva on his penis and “

      Isn’t it tragic that peoples with so much in common should be each other’s enemies?”

      “I hope this is a lesson to all! Auto-eroticism hardly ever…leads to …”

      I think maybe we’re seeing what auto-eroticism does lead to. And I assumed all those old-wives’ tales were just puritanical nonsense.

      • Mooser
        August 19, 2012, 1:28 pm

        “I think maybe we’re seeing what auto-eroticism does lead to.”

        Thank you sir! I just won a brand-new Peavey PV115D powered speaker on your comment! I bet my wife this is exactly where you would go, and she said, “No, he won’t!” I win.
        Well, then Colin, you did right to listen to those old-wives tales, even if you have doubts about their truthfulness. Better safe than sorry.
        Oy, first outed as a masturbator, next you’re gonna find out I’m gay, too! Is there any way I can write that my comments won’t reveal it?

        But I know my moral superiors when I see ’em, and I congratulate you from remaining free from self-pollution. You wouldn’t want to end up like some kind of cheap generator.

  8. Mooser
    August 19, 2012, 1:33 pm

    Oy, that’s the problem with this lousy website; if you’re Jewish, you just can’t work up the same kind of self-righteousness here as other’s can. Well, I’ve had it, I’m headed over to “The Truth ABout Mormons .com”

  9. piotr
    August 19, 2012, 4:24 pm

    I am a bit older that most people here, plus I know some first hand stories etc. of yet older people.

    Koestler story seems quite believable. There is a story on a Polish poet Boleslaw Lesmian (very good poet, very hard to translate, very neurotic) who once dated a girl and made a proposal of marriage. Her brother explained to him “Look, we vote for National Democrats [very anti-Semitic], please, be realistic!” The story is from 1930s. [Why Lesmian dated a Polish girl while he was married AND broke AND supported by a Jewish lover is a separate issue.]

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