The nonexistent ‘Jewish lobby’ sets out to destroy Chuck Hagel

An Emergency Committee for Israel attack on Chuck Hagel, above. The American Jewish Committee was the latest Jewish organization to enlist in the battle to prevent President Barack Obama from naming former Nebraska senator Chuck Hagel to be Secretary of Defense. The onslaught is unprecedented. Never before has virtually the entire organized Jewish community combined to stop a presidential cabinet appointment because it deems the potential nominee insufficiently devoted to Israel. Of course, below the cabinet level, the lobby has been manning the barricades against critics of any Israeli government policies for decades.

The onslaught against Hagel is unique however because the reason for it is not merely that he opposes the rush to war with Iran and favors negotiating an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The reason is because he dared to refer to the existence of the Israel lobby. He said this in 2008 in an interview with former State Department official, Aaron Miller.

This [Congress] is an institution that does not inherently bring out a great deal of courage,” Hagel continued. “Most of the time members play it safe and adopt an ‘I’ll support Israel’ attitude. AIPAC comes knocking with a pro-Israel letter, and ‘then you’ll get 80 to 90 senators on it. I don’t think I’ve ever signed one of the letters.’

When someone would accuse him of not being pro-Israel because he didn’t sign the letter, Hagel told me he responds: “‘I didn’t sign the letter because it was a stupid letter.” Few legislators talk this way on the Hill. Hagel is a strong supporter of Israel and a believer in shared values. “The Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,” but as he put it, “I’m a United States senator. I’m not an Israeli senator.”

That quote will likely doom Hagel’s candidacy because, if there is one institution that is considered untouchable, it is the Israel lobby and its power.

Here is Wall Street Journal columnist Brett Stephens, a major neocon and Netanyahu supporter, on the implications of Hagel’s remarks.

Prejudice – like cooking, wine-tasting and other consummations – has an olfactory element. When Chuck Hagel, the former GOP senator from Nebraska who is now a front-runner to be the next secretary of Defense, carries on about how “the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,” the odor is especially ripe.

Ripe because a “Jewish lobby,” as far as I’m aware, doesn’t exist. No lesser authorities on the subject than John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, authors of “The Israel Lobby,” have insisted the term Jewish lobby is “inaccurate and misleading, both because the [Israel] lobby includes non-Jews like Christian Zionists and because many Jewish Americans do not support the hard-line policies favored by its most powerful elements.”….

Ripe because the word “intimidates” ascribes to the so-called Jewish lobby powers that are at once vast, invisible and malevolent; and because it suggests that legislators who adopt positions friendly to that lobby are doing so not from political conviction but out of personal fear. Just what does that Jewish Lobby have on them?

In short, Hagel is an anti-Semite because he stated that the “Jewish lobby” both exists and “intimidates…”

It is true that it is impolitic to use the term “Jewish lobby” rather than “Israel lobby” although the very same people criticizing Hagel for using the former term objected just as vehemently when Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer used the latter in their book on the subject. In any case, the term Jewish lobby is accurate when one refers to organizations like the American Jewish Committee or the Anti-Defamation League, etc. They are Jewish organizations and not AIPAC, the registered Israel lobby.

As for the non-Jews and Christian Zionists that are supposedly part of the lobby, that is just silly. Having worked on Capitol Hill for 20 years, I can attest to the fact that the only voices that matter in Washington on this issue comes from Jews. The lobby contributes millions of dollars to candidates based on its determination of his or her devotion to Israel. No non-Jewish organization does that. The whole “Christian Zionist” thing is a joke and will be until John Hagee’s Christians United For Israel starts pouring money into our campaigns. And to BOTH parties.

Of course, the irony about the war on Hagel is that it has been launched against him because he says that the lobby acts as one to intimidate policymakers and legislators and the lobby screams that there is no such thing as an organized lobby that does these things.

Here is a list (not comprehensive) of those who have enlisted in the campaign against Chuck Hagel:

American Jewish Committee

The Anti-Defamation League

AIPAC

Commentary

Republican Jewish Coalition

National Jewish Democratic Council

The Israel Project

The Zionist Organization of America

Plus, Bill Kristol, Jennifer Rubin, Fred Hiatt of the Washington Post, Ed Koch

This list is only partial. Virtually all Jewish organizations, politicians and media figures are under pressure to condemn Hagel and many of them will. To its credit J Street is supporting Hagel and Israel Policy Forum has long been in the Hagel camp (it honored him for his support for Israel’s security in 2008).

But the others are all marching in lockstep to destroy a senator, a war hero (highly decorated Army infantryman) and one of the most thoughtful public officials on foreign policy matters. I say “destroy” because the charge of anti-Semitism can and does destroy. If Obama decides not to pick Hagel (and he probably will so decide), this great American will be tarred forever by the charge.

The good news is that the lobby will be shown to be precisely what its critics say it is. It is an organized machine, dedicated to the interests of the Israeli right that uses its power to ensure that no one in our government ever challenges Israel’s government on anything. Of course, it is unlikely that the media will even report the story.

In the wake of last week’s horrors in Connecticut, the media is talking almost endlessly about the sickening power of the gun lobby. But the gun lobby doesn’t come close to AIPAC’s power to intimidate. After all, as I said, everyone discusses the NRA and what should be done about it. Virtually no one in the media discusses the Israel lobby. If Hagel is rejected by Obama, don’t expect David Gregory, Rachel Maddow, or any of the rest of them to explain why. They can’t. They are afraid. But they are not afraid of the NRA. Doesn’t that tell you something?

Fortunately, there is the blogosphere (again, most of the major bloggers are intimidated into silence on the lobby but not all) where the most prominent voice of all, former New Republic editor Andrew Sullivan does have the guts to speak out. He says:

Like a kabuki dance,here it comes: the usual vile insinuations; the usual call for the Greater Israel Lobby to kill a nomination because a US Senator actually believe his job is to care first about the security and interests of the US, not Greater Israel; the reflexive equation of opposition to the Netanyahu administration or the settlements or the Gaza wars with pure bigotry. The phrases – “the odor is especially ripe” – are as preeningly self-righteous as they are toxic. You are not allowed, for example, to note that well-financed organized Washington lobbies “intimidate” lawmakers:

the word “intimidates” ascribes to the so-called Jewish lobby powers that are at once vast, invisible and malevolent; and because it suggests that legislators who adopt positions friendly to that lobby are doing so not from political conviction but out of personal fear.

It’s interesting to read this familiar, exhausted, ridiculous whine in the context of our current discussion about the NRA. The NRA is routinely called the gun lobby and it is described in exactly the same terms as AIPAC: “vast, invisible and malevolent” – because it is precisely as effective and relentless and as fanatical as AIPAC in wielding money, networking and political pressure in attaining its legislative goals. But we are forbidden from calling AIPAC what it is the way we call the NRA what it is – because telling the truth about it has been stigmatized as anti-Semitism.

It’s a useful ruse for bullies like the Greater Israel Lobby. It’s also an insult to those who have suffered and been murdered by actual anti-Semites. But for utopian fanatics, if casually calling honorable public servants anti-Semites helps them retain their dream of a Greater Israel, so be it. Which is why the president, if indeed he is contemplating an appointment for the Nebraska Republican, should not listen to the AIPAC thugs. He should what is right for this country, and not any other’s.

Sullivan leaves out one thing. The Israel Lobby is bad for the Jews. It suggests that Jewish Americans put the interests of a foreign country first which is a damnable lie. As every poll shows, Jewish Americans not only don’t vote based on Israel, they are not overly Israel centered at all. Moreover, those of us who do deeply care about Israel (although not more than we care about our own country) believe that the best way to support Israel is to work for peace with the Palestinians and to oppose war with Iran just as Hagel does. The lobby knows that but it has higher goals: making our government tremble, supporting Binyamin Netanyahu, and scaring Jews into donating more money to their respective organizations.

In short, the lobby is bad for America. But it’s worse for Jews.

How dare these hacks and lobbyists jeopardize our future in the best home Jews have ever had?

This piece first appeared at MJ Rosenberg’s site.

About M.J. Rosenberg

M.J. Rosenberg served as a Senior Foreign Policy Fellow with Media Matters Action Network, and prior to that worked on Capitol Hill for various Democratic members of the House and Senate for 15 years. He was also a Clinton political appointee at USAID. In the early 1980s, he was editor of AIPACs weekly newsletter Near East Report. From 1998-2009, he was director of policy at Israel Policy Forum. You can follow his work at mjayrosenberg.com.
Posted in Israel/Palestine

{ 147 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Betsy says:

    So, shouldn’t a broad mobilization among Jewish Americans be able to throw off the Israel Lobby? The Israel Lobby’s only claim to moral authority comes from its claim to defend the interests of Jewish peoples — and to hold off anti-Jewish forces. If a) they do not represent Jewish people and, if, b) anti-Semitism has largely disappeared in US (as a force that actively hurts people) and c) if ordinary Jewish Americans have lots of ways to take care of themselves, thank you, because they are not impoverished, stigmatized, powerless immigrants — but rather solidly within middle class in a democracy (flawed, but not threatening to them) — THEN THE KABUKI DANCE FALLS APART, even in our dysfunctional public sphere.

    The more I learn, the more I feel it is a paper tiger — and, that a bit more courage and organization could undo it. The civil rights struggle was up against far more dangerous economic forces — entrenched local & state elites reaping profits from oppression, coupled w/ deeply corrupted police forces that could wield terrible violence against protestors. The women’s struggle was also up against many forces profiting directly from patriarchy & violence. Compared to our other major social justice problems, this seems an unusually doable project. The people involved bring lots of assets — there is a pervasive philoSemitism I would argue, in America, a wide sense of respect for the achievements of Jewish Americans in many spheres — there’s a lot of social capital there to draw on. Many other justice struggles have to work from far far fewer assets — e.g., communities up against the Fossil Fuel Lobbies are often dealing w/ multiple stressors, devastating unemployment, bad schools, local corruption & violence. Yet, plucky, scappy grassroots groups rise up, even with all the burdens they bear.

    e.g., look how much good Phil & Adam & posse have done with one website.

    • Betsy says:

      how about a boycott movement among rank&file Jewish Americans — against donating to groups that are misrepresenting them? and, asking for greater transparency re/ who is donating & what their agendas are? if, as some are suggesting, there are a small number of rightwing big donors, who are skewing the mission of groups (as happened w/ Christian rightwing lobbies).

      • seafoid says:

        Even if they “kill” Hagel , for how long can they keep this horseshit going, realistically ?

        It’s always the same thuggery. They think they own the US and by definition the world.

      • ritzl says:

        All million dollar questions, Betsy.

        As much as MJR gets right, I think he gets the level of integration or acquiescence of most Jews into the Jewish community structure that implements these smear campaigns completely wrong. If he got it right, you wouldn’t have to ask your questions. There would be a visible and boisterous crack right down the middle of the Jewish community. There isn’t.

        He uses voting habits as evidence, but voting is a prioritization among many issues. Clearly Israel isn’t high on that priority list at election time. But then why should it be? When Israel is the single issue, as it is with Hagel (and so many others before him), the problem is handled in line with Lobby dictates and influence with nary a peep from more than just a few Jewish dissidents at the margins. IOW, Israel is taken care of outside of and/or despite election results, seemingly with overwhelming Jewish concurrence (or near zero dissent), so there’s no need to prioritize it when voting.

        Tough problem and why this site is so valuable. But Hagel may have the background to be smear resistant in flyover country. This may be a/the special case where the antisemitism smear finally ran out of oomph for these purposes. Worse, this may initiate a backlash where flyover country notices (all at once) who’s doing the smearing, and why, and then doesn’t really care anymore if someone is called antisemitic or not (MJR and a lot of other commenters here, get that very right, imo), or about other legitimate Jewish (as minority) needs.

        Hell of a price to pay, all around.

        Sorry for the length. Important questions.

        • Betsy says:

          @ritzl — Your comments are pithy & helpful — e.g.,

          As much as MJR gets right, I think he gets the level of integration or acquiescence of most Jews into the Jewish community structure that implements these smear campaigns completely wrong.

          if there is a kind of ‘glue’ that is connecting ordinary Americans (of Jewish identification) with the Israel Lobby — one wonders how strong it is, & what it’s made of & whether it could melt. Until about 10 years ago, I was one of those post-ethnic sort of Americans who hardly thought consciously about ethnic background of people I ran into — so I was astounded & upset when the wave of ignorant insults started flowing in from Jewish affiliated groups, against my church (Presbyterian). So, I’ve been bothering any of my friends & colleagues (who have any kind of Jewish identity) to explain what’s behind that.

          OK. Totally unscientific. But, what has struck me — is that most of my progressive or liberal Jewish friends seem like what M.J. describes — they *don’t* really have much emotional attachment to Zionism — but beyond that, the emotions seem to be sort of embarrassment (about the Israel lobby) & a state of denial — like they’re true non or anti-Zionist feelings are ‘in the closet’ — and they’ve got some emotional resistance to bringing the topic up & getting into a dust-up with their Zionist parents or grandparents or something. Frankly, they seem to me to be in a state of moral paralysis…that seems totally strange, given their courage in other areas. Like its a question of decorum (they don’t want to upset family members)…or everyone agreeing to not talk about an unpleasant & untraced episode of flatulence. Given the huge moral & geopolitical issues at stake — I would think that these folks would be reachable — and surely (especially among younger folks) they are a large number of people. (why is there so little hard data on these questions, one also wonders…e.g., really good surveys would help a lot). I’m truly perplexed by it, frankly. They seem strangely passive, like they don’t think they can do anything —

          But, the second thing that has struck me — is the level of sheer propaganda & malarkey that is being circulated. I’ve only found one friend who is really Zionist — normally, he’s incredibly sharp & critical on political issues, but on Israel he parrots ridiculous lines, including wild accusations of Christians (which are totally unmoored from scholarly history). Would a concerted, critical look at the intellectual quality of history being taught in Jewish Studies & temples be a doable project?

          Finally, I’ve only found ONE person of all my friends who actually attends a Temple. I periodically go with her to Temple, so I can keep a sense of direct interfaith fellowship. She’s elderly, and wonderfully progressive, but terrified of her children & grandchildren losing their connection to her faith — hence she’s giving them life memberships in Hadassah & other such organizations. Again, if her primary emotional glue is this intergenerational love — wanting to pass on a tradition — couldn’t she be reached on this level…

          I live right smack in ‘fly-over’ USA & my work leads me to travel in very hard-hit, poor rural, Southern communities. Communities which on the surface look captured by right-wing, reactionary populist lobbies of all sorts (not least, the NRA)…But, I think there are all kinds of fissures between these grassroots people & the national lobbies — where there’s room for more progressive & radical alliances. (I think we could kick old Mitch’s sorry butt out next election). But, it requires progressive folks truly addressing the real emotional needs that lock folks in.

          I’m deeply ignorant re/ I/P & related questions, so this is but tenuous comments on my part…

        • Mooser says:

          “Would a concerted, critical look at the intellectual quality of history being taught in Jewish Studies & temples be a doable project?”

          Call the headquarters, and a nice person will be glad to explain it to you.
          I was sincere when I said I wished we had something like that, I’d use it myself, constantly.

        • ritzl says:

          Betsy, Thanks for your kind words, but I just blurt out an opinion now and then. Probably everyone at this site is more qualified to fill in any knowledge gaps.

          You point out that there are unexploited seams between grassroots left/right and national-level left/right. I would add that there are unexploited confluences between grassroots left and right as well. And none of them get exploited for some reason that someone is going to figure out some day (sigh), and change the info-age world.

          I suspect the Jewish community is probably no different. Much latency or maybe even predisposition to do the right thing wrt Israel, dammed up by some force(s) that no one seems to know how to counter.

          I probably shouldn’t have been so specific to Jews. There’s a whole lot of effective “divide and conquer” political subjugation strategies in play in the US at the moment. The one within the Jewish community is just one of those, though a crucial one given Israel’s deep involvement in our FP and propensity to go to war. I just hope that someone (here, maybe) figures that one out before it becomes irrelevant that they do so.

    • Mooser says:

      “So, shouldn’t a broad mobilization among Jewish Americans be able to throw off the Israel Lobby?”

      What makes you think the “Israel Lobby” is in any way beholden to Jewish Americans? And what if Judaism is beholden to Zionism at this point?
      I might be putting a little to extremely, but a person could come to the conclusion that Zionism, much more than being something the Jews did, is something Zionists did to others, Jews and Palestinians. Of course they would make sure that the Jewish religion (after Zionism’s trouble with it for the last, 100 years or so) was in no position to give them any more trouble.
      I admire your actions and hope you make progress.

      • Philip Weiss says:

        Mooser I think you’re being thick about this too cleverly. There’s obviously some great overlap of the Jewish community and Zionism. Praise the lord it doesn’t include you, me and tons of others, but this was a ravishing that involved religious appeals and materials and that enveloped a large part of Jewish religious organizations… Phil

        • Mooser says:

          “There’s obviously some great overlap of the Jewish community and Zionism.”

          There obviously is, and considering the relative positions of the two, and the Zionist’s methods, I am going to resist calling a rape a marriage. I’d have to have a lot more contempt for Judaism than I do to ever think Judaism would have embraced Zionism willingly, or without extraordinary exigencies. It’s very possible that being closer to the situation, and having more insight then me, you know how corrupted Judaism was that it would join willingly in such a project, with it’s eyes open, a project that made hostages of its own people and their children and BTW, could do nothing but corrupt religious authority. I find it hard to believe Judaism would willingly enter such an arrangement, decide with its eyes open to take part in a repressive colonial scheme.
          So all that stuff about “Jewish ethics” is just so much piffle, and when the Palestine colonising scheme was presented to Rabbis, all they could think about was getting in on the ground floor?
          You’ll have to prove it to me, I’m going to resist that idea.

          And don’t call me ‘cleverly thick’! I have sixty years of documentation that I am genuinely thick. In fact, when asked to describe me, “Thick as a brick” is often the most printable description offered.

        • Mooser says:

          Man, that overtime clock is ticking. Over here, Judaism, do this, no, no this is more important. Yes but this is right do this! Quick, over here, some territorialism needed! “Ethics and values Judaism, come to the White Courtesy phone, now”

          We have got to give her a break, she’ll quit on us, and who’ve we got to replace her?

        • Philip Weiss says:

          thanks for thoughtful response mooser!

        • Mooser says:

          Thank you for moderating and printing the response so quickly.

          What do the facts show, as much as we can gather? Was it love-at-first-site or was Zionism imposed on the Jews? Not the allrightniks and the balebatisheh yiden like you, that’s not relevant to me. I want to know how it came down on the nebbish .

        • Philip Weiss says:

          I have no idea Mooser. I like the way you’re framing the issue, but I just don’t know. I grew up in an eccentric family. Zionism was alien to us and I didnt get out there till I was thrice-17. So I dodged a bullet. That said, I like to hold people responsible for their beliefs, even little people….

        • Mooser says:

          “That said, I like to hold people responsible for their beliefs, even little people….”

          Yeah, I bet from your vantage point, that seems like a great idea. It’s always easy to hold people responsible for their beliefs when you are not the one who pays the price for them. But if you are the one who is paying the price, you might see it differently. You do know what the price is for failing at a colonial project is, don’t you? Who in Israel do you think will pay it?

        • Mooser says:

          “I grew up in an eccentric family. Zionism was alien to us and I didnt get out there till I was thrice-17.”

          Your well-written articles on your family and its relationship to Zionism are still available, aren’t they? Weren’t they called (I’ll have to grovel if I’m wrong, but here goes!) “Notes on my Racism?” I don’t remember how much of that was involved directly with Zionism, but Jewish exceptionalism? Direct paternal tutelage in it? (If my memory is faulty, I apologise)

        • Mooser says:

          “I have no idea Mooser.”

          Hostage does.

        • Phil- This is the first time that you’ve admitted that Zionism was alien to your family. Good. A step forward in your openness.

        • Mooser says:

          “Phil- This is the first time that you’ve admitted that Zionism was alien to your family. Good. A step forward in your openness.”

          And you had to bhe for the War on Iraq, before you could be against the War on Iraq? Or you’re not serious?

          And we weren’t necessarily talking about Zionism, Yonah, we were talking about the non-religious ideas which are presented as the Jewish religion, due, I would think, to the splintered and destroyed state of Judaism. Or do you think all the perswecution, wanderings, schisms and splinterings and betrayals by our own leaders (not even to mention the amount of us killed) made us a better, stronger people? In that case, seems like we owe the Gentiles at least a thank-you note.

      • seanmcbride says:

        Mooser,

        If I may allowed to speak frankly: I have found your comments on the connections between Judaism and Zionism so far to be defensive, evasive, confused, incoherent, and — yes — laughable. (Usually I am laughing with you.)

        The worldwide Jewish religious establishment (mainstream Judaism, in brief) has embraced Zionism with passionate enthusiasm. Dissenters within that community are barely a blip on the screen.

        Contemporary Judaism is not a passive victim of Zionism — it has been an active promoter of Zionism, and it has deliberately erased any significant distinctions between Judaism and Zionism — by its own free will and choice.

        And the mainstream Jewish religious organizations that have been promoting Zionism are indeed components of the Jewish lobby and the Jewish establishment.

        Give up the Mel Brooks tap dance and acknowledge the simple truth.

        By the way, Betsy’s direct sincerity moves me more than your habitual nervous irony. There is a real person there struggling to tell the truth straight.

        • Mooser says:

          “I have found your comments on the connections between Judaism and Zionism so far to be defensive, evasive, confused, incoherent, and — yes — laughable. “

          Yup, Sean, I think they reflect the relationship between Judaism and Zionism pretty well. Thanks for agreeing.

          “By the way, Betsy’s direct sincerity moves me more than your habitual nervous irony. There is a real person there struggling to tell the truth straight.”

          Wait a minute, I have to be a real person. All my suits are made for a real person, and they fit!
          I did not know Betsy and I were competing for your approbation. but I’m glad to hear Betsy is winning. I’m already married, and need no complications. I’ll put you down for a fish-slice, or a blender, when the happy day comes.

          “Theosophy (from Greek θεοσοφία theosophia, from θεός theos, divine + σοφία sophia, wisdom; literally “divine wisdom”), refers to systems of esoteric philosophy concerning, or investigation seeking direct knowledge of, presumed mysteries of being and nature, particularly concerning the nature of divinity.” (Wiki)

          And you expect me to ever, ever take you seriously? However, when you do get direct knowledge of the divinity, please post it on Mondo.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Mooser,

          I once mentioned my interest in theosophy in passing. What that interest entails is keeping an open and curious mind about all human belief and symbol systems, exoteric and esoteric, and drawing from their patterns of interaction creative and useful insights whenever possible. Theosophy in the broadest sense is not dogmatic or sectarian in any way but does encourage cultivating a sense of wonder and imagination about the unknown mysteries of our universe (and perhaps of many other universes as well). I find this outlook on the world to be congenial and consistent with my sense of things.

          Regarding your religious beliefs: what is your religious background exactly and your current religious orientation? Clearly the subject of Judaism is emotional for you — you are prickly on the subject.

          What does Judaism mean to you? I’ve read a few dozen serious scholarly books on Judaism — I know the historical and ideological territory quite well. There is much in Judaism that I admire and find inspiring. Like every other religion, there is also much in it that is questionable.

        • Mooser says:

          Sean, I hae searched all my life for a system of thought which could show that everything I thought was right because I thought it. It’s a hell of a wonderful feeling, but I lost it somewhere in my adolescence, and never got it back. I wonder why?

    • Mooser says:

      “The people involved bring lots of assets — there is a pervasive philoSemitism I would argue, in America, a wide sense of respect for the achievements of Jewish Americans in many spheres”

      You think philo-Semitism is an ally in the struggle? So long Betsy, good luck, and I’m sorry I troubled you in any way, I won’t do it again.

      • Mooser says:

        So long Betsy, good luck, and I’m sorry I troubled you in any way, I won’t do it again.”

        That line was deleted and replaced in an edit which was apparently too late, my apologies. I replaced with a sentence likening of Philo-Semitism to the “chivalry” in Jewish-Gentile relations, and expressing my admiration for Betsy’s efforts.
        But did I get it there in time? Nope.

        • Mooser says:

          And now I have to listen to my late Mom saying ” If you can’t think once before you open your mouth twice, that’s three strikes, you’re out!” in my head all day.

        • Betsy says:

          Hi, Mooser…you’re not troubling me. I’m finding all of this really really interesting — don’t say good bye!

          btw, I had post-posting anxiety — cause I realized I should have noted how ignorant, insulting & arrogant Christians can be in not ‘getting’ other faiths…

          I’m learning a lot — and realizing how clueless I’ve been…

        • Mooser says:

          “I’m learning a lot — and realizing how clueless I’ve been…”

          There’s a lot to learn about disorganised religion, especially if you’ve grown up in a fairly organised one. Don’t you wish you could call headquarters and get an explanation from an authoritative source who would be happy to take the time to explain? I know I do!
          Did you once post a comment, during the divestment-vote campaign, on the problems associated with a Church simply having that much money to invest, the obfuscations and evasions and hypocrisies it demands? Was that you?
          Can you imagine the corrupting demands of ‘having’ (in a psychological’ sense, if no other) a project like Zionism to assimilate into a religion like Judaism, which was as a religion left with almost nothing by the last 50 years of the Twentieth Century? And the first casualty is truth, whether we tell it to other’s or ourselves.
          And thanks for your patience with me.

        • Mooser says:

          “don’t say good bye!”

          They’ll probably end up calling me the Micheal Jackson of Mondoweiss. I never can say goodbye.

  2. yourstruly says:

    “The Hagel limtums test”, editorial, today’s LA Times, dutifully transcribed here in its entirety –

    First, critics went after U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice and unfairly short-circuited her candidacy to be secretaryof State. Now, a similar campaign is being waged against former senator Chuck Hagel (R. Neb.) who reportedly is president Obama’s choice to be secretary of defense.
    We’ aren’t ready to pronounce Hagel qualified for the position. But once again, just as with Rice, the comments being seized on by his opponents are not sufficient to disqualify himself from consideration.
    There are essentially three counts in the indictment: that he is too eager to reduce Pentagon spending; that as a senator he opposed sanctions against Iran at a time when that country was meddlying in Iraq; and that he is hostile to Israel. The first two complaints are easily dismissed. Obama also is concerned about defense overspending. As for Iran, Hagel would be in position as Defense secretary to undermine sanctions against that country, which are designed to deter it from developing a nuclear weapon.
    More potent politically is the claim that Hagel is anti-Israel. That charge is based on a number of previous policy positions he has taken, but critics are most exercised by his statement that “the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here.” “To refer to a “Jewish lobby” is both impolite and inaccurate in that it suggests that all activists who lobby on Israel’s behalf are Jewish and that all Jews are defenders of Israeli policy. He shouldn’t have said that.
    But it is perfectly reasonable to observe that there is a strong lobby on behalf of Israel and that members of Congress of wary of alienating it; to say so is to state the obvious and does not suggest as a Wall Streen Journal columnist argued, that Hagel views the pro-Israel lobby as possessing “vast, invisible and malevolent powers.
    Hagel also has been criticized for saying that “I’m a United States senator, not an Israeli senator.” But what’s so bad about that? Despite the close relationship, U.S. and Israeli positions sometimes diverge (as they have done for decades over Jewish settlements in the West Bank).
    Aaron David Miller, a scholar who advised Republican and Democratic administrations on Middle East issues, told the New York Times that “there should not be a litmus test as to whether he is pro-Israel enough.” We agree. If Obama is convinced that Hagel is the right candidate, he should nominate him – and let the Senate exercise its responsibility of advise and consent. -

    a newspaper of record, the LA Times, informing its audience that times-a-changing

    toward what?

    peace on earth and good will to all living beings

    • Egbert says:

      Rice was not the first…. Chas Freeman was first.

      ‘In 2009, President Barack Obama nominated Chas Freeman to chair the National Intelligence Council. However, a vilification campaign orchestrated by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) blocked Freeman’s appointment. As Freeman recounts:

      “I withdrew my acceptance of the position. The next day’s Washington Post contained three items on this: (1) a front-page account by Walter Pincus detailing aspects of the Lobby’s campaign against me; (2) a column by David Broder saying that my resignation was America’s loss; and (3) an unsigned editorial calling me a ‘crackpot’ for imagining that there was an Israel Lobby and that it had opposed me.” …’

      link to consortiumnews.com

      It’s deja vu all over again

      • peeesss says:

        Please don’t link Rice with Freeman or Hagel in regards to US policy in the MI in particular to the Iran and I/P situations. Rice , bascally, was running for the position of Sec.of State on her right wing Israeli[Likudnik} bonifieds and her war mongering in respect to Iran. Although she , obviously, followed Administratio instructions in her position as UN Ambassodor, the language and emphasis of Ms. Rice was something John Bolton would cheer. She was in the middle of a republican attempt to embarras Obama[the Benghazi incident} . Ironically John McCain probably regrets now his attacks on Ms. Rice. Her world view mirrors his.

  3. yourstruly says:

    this here nonexistent ‘jewish’ lobby?

    nonexist, because really, there’s no daylight between the u.s. & israel?

    because at long last, the dawn

    & the world?

    of, by & for its inhabitants

    every woman, man & child?

    all living beings

  4. Real Jew says:

    MJ Rosenberg is like the MJ of basketball……one of the best.

  5. Dan Crowther says:

    Maybe people are intimidated because even in condemnations of “the lobby” cats like MJ still need to remind us how inappropriate a single utterance from Hagel was. Maybe people are intimidated because they don’t want to be seen as dictating “what is good for the jews,” which seems to be still be the most important point for Rosenberg.

    Anyone else think it’s a little strange that partisans like Rosenberg and others are all so ginned up about chuck fckin hagel? Chuck Hagel: Liberal Savior? HA! You know you’re running on empty when the best you can hope for is a right wing former senator to be “defense” secretary.

    • tokyobk says:

      Being specific is good for discovering the Truth and for human relations, not just for the Jews. Its what is fairly asked by all groups.

      “Israel Lobby” works just fine. It serves any purpose a critic of Israel or supporter of Palestinian interests needs.

      If someone cannot resist, even the “Jewish Israel lobby” is better since there are also Christian Israel lobbyists, and as we know Jews who are anti and non-Zionist. Any many who simply don’t know or don’t care about the details of this issue.

      The “Jewish Lobby” is always going to be taken by many as and used by some to mean “The Jooooos.”

      • seanmcbride says:

        tokyobk,

        The “Jewish Lobby” is always going to be taken by many as and used by some to mean “The Jooooos.”

        The Jewish lobby is the most influential component of the Israel lobby by far — it would be quite absurd not to openly and frankly discuss “the Jewish lobby” when that lobby itself describes itself so conspicuously as Jewish. Some of the discussion of this topic coming from members of the Jewish lobby crosses the line from neurotic to outright crazy. This is the kind psychological warp that Larry David could nicely dissect.

        The Conference of Presidents of Major American *JEWISH* Organizations is the first place to look when trying to understand the structure and activities of the Jewish lobby. Google them. Google their component organizations, which include AIPAC and JINSA. From the standpoint of the Conference of Presidents organizational chart, AIPAC and JINSA are suborganizations.

        And another point: the mainstream Jewish lobby has completely collapsed all distinctions between Judaism and Zionism. That belief — that all Jews are basically Israelis, Zionists and Jewish nationalists — and which has now spread all around the world — is their handiwork — the product of intensive lobbying and propagandizing over decades. Ignore the Jewish lobby at your peril.

      • seanmcbride says:

        tokyobk,

        Who in your mind are the most conspicuous leaders of the Jewish lobby in the United States? — public figures who are lobbying, pressuring and propagandizing for Jewish interests — especially Jewish nationalist and Israeli interests?

        For me, William Kristol, Alan Dershowitz, Joe Lieberman, Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Dennis Ross, Mort Zuckerman, Richard Perle, Eric Cantor, Abraham Foxman, Ronald Lauder and Debbie Wasserman Schultz come to mind.

        How about you?

        • Mooser says:

          “For me, William Kristol, Alan Dershowitz, Joe Lieberman, Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Dennis Ross, Mort Zuckerman, Richard Perle, Eric Cantor, Abraham Foxman, Ronald Lauder and Debbie Wasserman Schultz come to mind.”

          Those are the leaders of the Jewish Lobby? They are some very effective and somewhat powerful people!
          I am gonna count on all eight days off from work next year and book a cruise. The Jewish Lobby won’t let us down!

        • seanmcbride says:

          Mooser,

          Those are the leaders of the Jewish Lobby? They are some very effective and somewhat powerful people!

          I didn’t say that they are “the leaders of the Jewish lobby” — they are merely a few names that immediately come to my mind when I think about prominent Jewish activists who are lobbying for Jewish interests.

          Who comes to your mind when you think about prominent Jewish activists for Jewish causes in American politics?

          Which names appear most frequently in the New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal?

      • seanmcbride says:

        tokyobk,

        I wonder if we could come to an agreement on a definition for “the Jewish lobby.”

        Here is mine:

        The Jewish lobby: the worldwide social, organizational, political, financial, cultural and propaganda network that lobbies for Jewish interests.

        Would you care to edit or revise it? What does your definition look like?

        And a question for you:

        If I were conspicuously agitating and lobbying for Ireland and Irish nationalism in American politics, would it be unfair of you to describe me as being a member of the Irish lobby?

        If in response to being described as a member of the Irish lobby, would you assume that I had lost my mind if I responded with moral outrage and angry attacks on you? If I claimed that there was no such thing as the Irish lobby? If I accused you of being a bigot who hated the Irish?

        Think about it.

      • American says:

        tokyobk says:
        “The “Jewish Lobby” is always going to be taken by many as and used by some to mean “The Jooooos.”>>>>>>>>

        I have to tell you I despise that ..”The Jooooos” thing. It reminds of the nasty zio bots who use it to mock. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a non Jew use it but it’s offensive to me on behalf of Jews no matter who uses it….so please don’t. It’s really sleezy, low class and obnoxious sounding.

      • Cliff says:

        tokyobk said:

        The “Jewish Lobby” is always going to be taken by many as and used by some to mean “The Jooooos.”

        I agree, even though I myself have said ‘the Jewish Lobby.’

        At the same time though, I think people see politically active Jews as the representatives of the Israel Lobby.

        Right or Left – it’s Jewish people who are in the media vocally saying this or that about someone’s supposed critical (as in non-unwavering support of) views of Israel.

        Oh and Jewish organizations like the ADL – which is simply an Israel Lobby pro-censorship group.

        The Israel Lobby is an ethno-religious lobby. It’s political goal is to maintain the status quo of Jewish nationalism and colonialism.

        This is about Jewish nationalism and colonialism.

      • biorabbi says:

        Conversely, they could stand up against racism, anti-semitism, vilification of Muslims and gays. If they choose, they could lobby for Israel, take pride in their Jewish heritage. They have as much right to lobby for or against Israel(or anything else)as they see fit.

        They way I deal with Jew haters, is to wear my star of david outside of my shirt if you catch my drift. My issue is not Israel or Zionism but the vilification of Jews, black, gays, Muslims.

        • Mooser says:

          “Conversely, they could stand up against racism, anti-semitism, vilification of Muslims and gays.”

          And that would be great! And what will we do with Israel while we are doing that? Say it was a peopless land for a landless people? Or the Palestinians followed us there to take it away from us?

          Biorabbi, do you have any idea what Israel actually is? Where are its borders, to start?

        • Mooser says:

          “They way I deal with Jew haters, is to wear my star of david outside of my shirt if you catch my drift.”

          With “one of my guns” under it? And if they say you’re not a real Rabbi….well, you’re ready to stand your ground, like Zimmerman?

        • Mooser says:

          “They way I deal with Jew haters,…”

          In Florida, Biorabid? Isn’t the Florida motto “A state for Jew haters”. Wow, I don’t know another Jew brave enough to live there! You must be some macher. Oh, I forgot, you take your guns to work, in the hospital. Which hospital is that, biorarebit?

        • Mooser says:

          “If they choose, they could lobby for Israel, take pride in their Jewish heritage.”

          Look, bro, I like your exuberance and all, but really, I wouldn’t go taking “pride” in ethnic cleasing until we get at least a billion more Jews, and nobody can say “boo” to us. Til then, pal, “mum’s the word”.

        • seanmcbride says:

          biorabbi,

          My issue is not Israel or Zionism but the vilification of Jews, black, gays, Muslims.

          Can you point us to some of your public posts on the Internet in which you have defended blacks, gays and Muslims?

        • RoHa says:

          “They have as much right to lobby for … Israel”

          No one has a right to lobby for something that is evil.

          “take pride in their X-ish heritage.”

          What is a heritage (of the type modified by X-ish or some similar term) and why would anyone take pride in such a thing?

    • seafoid says:

      It’s not like Hagel would make any difference to all the Pakistanis whose naseeb is to die by drone. But there is a district air of the Protocols about the Lobby and when that gets some light shone on it there will be a lot of awkward questions from Main Street. Israel is a community prank that has gone way out of control. It is far too late to turn the clock back.

      • Antidote says:

        “there is a district air of the Protocols about the Lobby and when that gets some light shone on it …”

        The Protocols allege a secret meeting of the Elders of Zion seeking world control by nefarious means. There’s no secret whatsoever about Israeli/Zionist/Jewish strategies to ensure the future of Israel and the Jewish people as maintaining a Jewish identity: it’s an anti-assimilationist, pro-Israel agenda that strongly encourages ethnic allegiance and some sort of Judaism, cultural or religious.

        The strategies are openly discussed here:

        link to jppi.org.il

    • Keith says:

      DAN CROWTHER- “You know you’re running on empty when the best you can hope for is a right wing former senator to be “defense” secretary.”

      Right you are, Dan!

      • Citizen says:

        That’s all you think of Hagel? He has two purple hearts, is against gunboat diplomacy, and said in public he was a US senator, not an Israeli senator, and dared to also say in public, yes, Dorthey, there really is a powerful Jewish Israel First lobby.

        • Keith says:

          CITIZEN- “…is against gunboat diplomacy….”

          Actions speak louder than words. What do his votes and subsequent actions say? Did/does he favor a significant reduction in US overseas bases? Did/does he favor a significant reduction in the military budget? Did/does he favor ending US military and diplomatic support for Israel? Did/does he favor the US finally living up to its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and working towards a rapid elimination of nuclear weapons, perhaps beginning with a nuclear-free Middle East? Has/Does he oppose US covert warfare against Iran, including the current sanctions? Did/Does he oppose the expansion of NATO as an imperial out of area strike force? Does he oppose AFRICOM, massive covert operations and world-wide drone warfare? So what is he going to do other than perhaps be an ever so slightly more prudent imperialist than a deranged neocon? You think that these qualities make him worthy of support? As for me, I’ve got my fingers crossed that Obama’s 2nd choice will be Cindy Sheehan. He is for change, isn’t he?

          “He has two purple hearts….”

          Yes, he is a former imperial storm trooper who was twice wounded. If this doesn’t get my progressive, anti-imperialist heart thumping, what will?

          “…said in public he was a US senator, not an Israeli senator….”

          For a Senator from Nebraska to play the patriot card is hardly a bold thing to do. ‘My empire, right or wrong’ plays well in some circles. Yet, if you find comfort in the notion that a few through away lines are a harbinger of bold changes to come, who am I to deny you?

          “That’s all you think of Hagel?”

          Since we are talking about Secretary of Defense, I limited my above comments to military matters, however, it would be well to consider what the inclusion of this right-winger in an Obama cabinet says about the ideological make-up of the Obama administration, already overloaded with neoliberal and interventionist gusto. In short, I completely agree with Dan Crowther on this that seeing liberals at the head of the line cheerleading for this right-winger is indicative of how far liberals have departed from any pretense of supporting “liberal” values. Anti-Zionist myopia is not a positive trait.

        • RoHa says:

          “As for me, I’ve got my fingers crossed that Obama’s 2nd choice will be Cindy Sheehan.”

          Keep them crossed.

          But while we wait for the migrating herds of pigs to fly across, surely “an ever so slightly more prudent imperialist” is more worthy of grudging support “than a deranged neocon”.

        • American says:

          “it would be well to consider what the inclusion of this right-winger in an Obama cabinet says about the ideological make-up of the Obama administration, “…Keith

          Hate to tell you but some of the loudest and most demanding calls for a US attack on Iran are coming from Democrats. Beside Dennis, everyone’s favorite ani war liberal who opposed the Iraq war, the ‘first’ two politicians to come out and say this was a mistake -get out now, were Repub Chuck Hagel and my repub Congressman Walter Jones. Hindsight? yes, but we’re still waiting for some Dems to take to the floor and denounce it.

  6. Ellen says:

    Frank Bruni of the NYT now tweeting that a story may be breaking on Hagel:

    “Am detecting a rapidly welling concern about Chuck Hagel’s deeply conservative record and statements on LGBT issues. Developing. #Hagel”

    The Deutsche Bank angle had no legs. Let’s see if they get something going on LGBT issues? They are digging.

    • that’s amusing since this came out 6 days ago:

      link to metroweekly.com

      maybe what he meant was someone tipped him off the weekly standard was on the case: story broke 35 minutes ago.

      link to weeklystandard.com

      from the time it took me to google ‘hagel LGBT’ and post the first link (which was on top) and go back for the WS link (3 minutes) WS jumped to the top of the page. so, they have a new angle of attack. whoopie

  7. The campaign against Chuck Hagel is not happening and the parties not conducting said campaign do not have an agenda.

  8. radii says:

    if the israeli lobby is a myth, why don’t all the dual-citizens of both the USA and israel in our gov’t, lobbying firms and policy think-tanks renounce their israeli citizenship and turn over their israeli passports?

  9. seanmcbride says:

    If the Jewish lobby is determined to try to conceal the reality of its existence from the world, and to pull the wool over the eyes of Americans, it could begin by:

    1. Removing the word “Jewish” from the names of Jewish lobbying organizations like:

    1. AJC (American Jewish Committee)

    2. Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations

    3. JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs)

    4. NJDC (National Jewish Democratic Council)

    5. RJC (Republican Jewish Coalition)

    6. WJC (World Jewish Congress)

    and so on. Not to mention all the organization names which mention Israel, Zionism, Judaism, etc. The names are rather a giveaway. There are dozens of these organizations, all working in a coordinated way on behalf of the Israeli government and Jewish nationalism.

    2. Stop attacking in such an aggressive and abusive way, in the name of Jewish and Israeli interests, so many Americans and Europeans who are gravely concerned about American and European interests in the Middle East and around the world.

    3. Stop mentioning variations of the phrase “the Jews” in hundreds or thousands of public statements made every year designed to influence and control American Mideast policy.

    4. Encourage Jewish billionaires like Sheldon Adelson to stop contributing more than $100 ($150?) million to a single political party during an election cycle in an effort to bribe and buy that party on behalf of the Israeli government and Jewish nationalism. People tend to notice these things.

    Just a thought, of course. What do I know.

    At present, the Jewish lobby is far more visible in American politics than even the NRA. And it is never more visible than it is now, when it is absurdly yelling that it doesn’t exist in its campaign to destroy Chuck Hagel and to impose tyrannical control over the Obama administration and the US Defense Department. The self-contradictory and crazy message couldn’t be more clear: if you don’t say we don’t exist, we will destroy you.

    • tokyobk says:

      Sean,

      It still does not add up to a singular (“The”) Jewish Lobby with a Jewish agenda for Jews.

      Every ethnic and religious group has organizations that claim to speak for all of its members.

      There is a well organized and effective Israel Lobby and there are various Jewish groups that lobby for Israel and other Jewish interests.

      I think Ali Abuminah is correct that the assumption that a group or a state can represent all Jews is in fact anti-semitic, as is the assumption that Jews will be naturally aligned with the groups that claim to speak for them.

      Its completely superfluous to the task of criticizing the Israel Lobby.

      • seanmcbride says:

        Tokyobk,

        It still does not add up to a singular (“The”) Jewish Lobby with a Jewish agenda for Jews.

        The Jewish lobby in the United States formally and officially unifies more than fifty Jewish organizations — including AIPAC — under a single umbrella — the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. And this super-organization — which explicitly identifies itself as Jewish — is aggressively and conspicuously focused on pursuing Jewish interests — not just Israeli or Jewish nationalist interests.

        The Israel lobby for the most part is a SUBSET of the Jewish lobby. The Christian Zionist lobby is a secondary player in the Israel lobby — not the prime mover. The Jewish lobby is vastly more wealthy than the Christian Zionist lobby and in control of much more influential propaganda institutions — mainstream media outlets and policy centers.

        Why do you continue to deny that there is an extremely powerful Jewish lobby in the United States when the activities of that lobby are prominently reported on in the Jewish media itself?

        Jewish neoconservatives have been the most influential players in the Jewish lobby for the last decade and they regularly frame their rhetoric in terms of “the Jews” and Jewish interests — they make no effort to hide their real agenda in their in-house writings.

        In an earlier comment I made this point:

        An example of a social science/content analytic metric for graphing the relative level of activity of American ethnic lobbies:

        sort ethnic groups by number of ethnocentric or ethnic nationalist oped articles in the Washington Post from 2000 through 2012.

        How out of whack to do think the Jewish lobby is vis-a-vis other ethnic lobbies in the United States — like the Irish lobby — in promoting its ethnic nationalist agenda in the pages of the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other mainstream media outlets?

        The obvious answer: radically out of whack. How often does one see oped pages in the Washington Post agitating for any form of ethnocentric and ethnic nationalist politics other than Jewish nationalism? Most Americans do not organize their politics around ethnocentrism or ethnic nationalism — they take a much broader and more enlightened view of the world. Too much ethnocentrism and ethnic nationalism is without a doubt un-American and anti-American.

    • Mooser says:

      “The Jewish lobby: the worldwide social, organizational, political, financial, cultural and propaganda network that lobbies for Jewish interests.”

      “If the Jewish lobby is determined to try to conceal the reality of its existence from the world, and to pull the wool over the eyes of Americans, it could begin by”

      So you are saying it is making no effort to conceal itself while it attends to the mission you delineated in the quote above? Quite laudable and honest, wouldn’t you say? I mean, the forthrightness and lack of concealment. Gosh, there must be a lot of philo-Semitism in the world if people put up with it.
      Now I have to wonder sometimes if they use all that “Jewish” stuff to fool credulous Jewish people, not inform Gentiles of their key “territorial”, “messanic” and “ethno-centric” components.

      • seanmcbride says:

        Mooser,

        So you are saying it is making no effort to conceal itself while it attends to the mission you delineated in the quote above? Quite laudable and honest, wouldn’t you say? I mean, the forthrightness and lack of concealment.

        Then why is it that so many leaders and members of the Jewish lobby lose their minds at the bare mention of the words “the Jewish lobby”?

        Tokyobk, for instance — a self-described anti-Zionist or non-Zionist — has tried to associate the term “the Jewish lobby” with antisemitism.

        Would Peter King freak out and spring into self-righteous and morally outraged attack mode if he were described as a member of the Irish lobby?

        No. There is something strangely neurotic in play in the discussion of this topic. And there is no reason for rational people to indulge this neuroticism any longer.

        By the way: have you introspected yet on your own ethnocentrism? What drives it?

        • Mooser says:

          Sean, don’t do this to me! Leave me something, at least a little! Firswt you say: “If the Jewish lobby is determined to try to conceal the reality of its existence from the world, and to pull the wool over the eyes of Americans, it could begin by:
          1. Removing the word “Jewish” from the names of Jewish lobbying organizations like:”
          (you go on to list several)

          And then you tell me: “Then why is it that so many leaders and members of the Jewish lobby lose their minds at the bare mention of the words “the Jewish lobby”?

          Good Lord, Sean, are we really that dumb? First we label everything as Jewish, and throw a fit when people mention it? Well, now I know a possible way to tell who is Jewish! He’ll be the guy with the “Kick Me” sign on his back.

        • Mooser says:

          “There is something strangely neurotic in play in the discussion of this topic.”

          I’ll say!

          “By the way: have you introspected yet on your own ethnocentrism? What drives it?”

          Sean, I’ve answered that question a million times: Bagels from Safeway. I can usually get a full day of ethnocentrism out of 3 or 4 with a big smear of cream-cheese or my BIL’s (he’s a maven with the monoxide!) smoked trout. (First Prize, Kitsap County Fair 2 years running!)

          I’m sorry, Sean, I don’t know what my “ethnicity” is, and made damn sure not to find out, once my parents were “late”. I know what my religion is and I know I’m an American citizen, for better or worse (at any rate, they let me pay taxes, and once thought about drafting me.) but I don’t know what my “ethnicity” is. Do you?

        • Mooser says:

          “Tokyobk, for instance “

          That tokyobk? You mean our very own tokyobk is a “leader” and/or member of the Jewish lobby? This is indeed an honor.

        • seanmcbride says:

          Mooser,

          Good Lord, Sean, are we really that dumb? First we label everything as Jewish, and throw a fit when people mention it? Well, now I know a possible way to tell who is Jewish! He’ll be the guy with the “Kick Me” sign on his back.

          I would never accuse your tribal contingent of being dumb. Psychologically complex, self-contradictory, paradoxical and conflicted? Yes. I’m a bit that way myself on a more modest scale. And I know I can sometimes drive people crazy because of it.

          I mean, neurosis can be incredibly creative — don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. But it can also get one into some serious problems.

          What I like about Likudniks/Jabotinskyites: they basically say, I’m a militant ethnic nationalist. Like it or lump it — f*uck you. Straight shooters. No evasions. No neurotic loops. No head games. This is who I am. You don’t need to waste too much time or energy in figuring out how to relate to them. I like the saving time and energy part.

        • Mooser says:

          “What I like about Likudniks/Jabotinskyites: they basically say, I’m a militant ethnic nationalist. Like it or lump it — f*uck you.”

          Sean, I am very well aware of your preference for Jews who confirm your, your, well, what the hell would you call this:

          “I would never accuse your tribal contingent of being dumb. Psychologically complex, self-contradictory, paradoxical and conflicted? Yes.”

          But not those Likudniks, huh? They think straight! BTW Sean, there been an oversight. You forgot to link us to the evidence for your claims about Jewish psychology. After all, we all should see a Woody Allen film.
          Unless it’s right because you said it, which, I’m pretty sure, is the stronger possibility.

      • piotr says:

        Mooser, you try to refute McBride by observing that activities and goals of the Lobby, as described by McBride, would not be logical.

        However, it would not be the first movement in history with a checkered attitude to logic. In fact, if democracy could determine rules of logic, modus ponens would be done with, buried six feet deep on the top of the tallest tree.

    • Mooser says:

      “What do I know.”

      Chin up, Sean, you know there’s a world-wide Jewish lobby, and all it’s component parts are integrated and responsive to one another, and all with the same aims and ends justifying their means. And that’s a whole lot more than a lot of other people know, and they’re depending on you to tell them. So don’t get discouraged now, there’s too much to do! BTW, one thing you could tell me right away is this: is this internation Jewish Lobby hierarchal, or more like the Internet in construction? Who sits at the top, or the center, and gives the directives. Or does everybody just know what to do?

      And always remember, Sean, you catch more flies with Halvah than with horseradish.

      • seanmcbride says:

        Mooser,

        The worldwide Jewish lobby, whose center of gravity seems to reside in the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations (50+ organizations), working in tandem with the Israeli government and a tightly knit international network of Jewish organizations in Europe and other regions, seems to be largely run from the top down by a few dozen billionaires, like Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Irving Moskowitz, Mort Zuckerman, Ronald Lauder, Michael Milken, Lester Crown, Lev Leviev, etc.

        There is a great deal of discussion of this issue — the essentially plutocratic and oligarchic nature of the Jewish establishment — in the Jewish and Israeli media — perhaps you’ve read some of it? Do you need a hand in Googling into the topic? If you’re not extremely wealthy, you’re not a significant player in making policy for the worldwide Jewish establishment. Most components of the Jewish and Israel lobbies are funded and controlled by billionaires.

        You are not going to be able to josh your way through this topic — you need to sober up for once and get your hands on some concrete and relevant facts.

        Now, is this an uncomfortable topic? Yes it is. I wouldn’t even begin to dream of getting into it if the Israel lobby weren’t trying to destroy Chuck Hagel, drive Americans into a war against Iran, stir up a global holy war between the United States and Islam, bankrupt the United States for the sake of building Greater Israel, etc. Americans have been left with no choice other than to get to the bottom of what precisely is going on here — their own survival is at stake. We need to cut through the propaganda and discover the truth.

        • Americans have been left with no choice other than to get to the bottom of what precisely is going on here — their own survival is at stake. We need to cut through the propaganda and discover the truth.

          why? if the other 98% of us can’t turn the tide, why bother? are you implying we have enough power to defy them? just checking.

        • American says:

          Here is the fallacy of AIPAC and the fallacy of ‘American” support for Israel.
          I could drag up dozens and dozens more just like this from the Black community, the Hispanic community.
          There has Never been wide spread or deep support for Israel. What existed for Jews after WWII was a huge amount of American and world sympathy for them, as well for other refugees and victims of Hitler. But 99% of Americans have never held any fevered loyalty or favortism toward any foreign country. And it’s not some extreme nationalism that makes them mostly indifferent to other nations, it’s simply not in the general American psyche or tradition to have political loyalty to another country, we are some might righty say, slightly self centered. But then most citizens of any nation are centered mostly own their nation and welfare.

          This is what is going on re Israel and their ‘Lobby’ in the US and this why AIPAC can buy or entice some leaders of groups, they can get some ‘token’ blakcs or hispanics, but they can’t get that group to support Israel….the ‘group’ rejects it. AIPAC will never get the numbers of American members to fill in for the Jews that are aging out and dwindling in the US. It won’t happen. It will have to continue with the same tactics and propaganda it has always used. And I think we are seeing that knowledge of what Israel is and is doing is very wide spread “among the people’ . And with this latest Hagel ourage they are really pushing the envelope. Now annie was saying do the people have the power or not?…well they do if they get rid of the leaders who do this. I bet this Navajo President doesn’t last long.

          link to navajotimes.com

          An unexpected trip to Israel
          December 13, 2012

          I It should not shock or surprise us that our Navajo Nation President Ben Shelly has taken an unexpected trip to visit Israel, a government that has committed itself to carrying out genocidal practices against it’s population of indigenous Palestinian peoples.
          I make this argument because our president has illustrated himself to be unfit to make the kind of informed, wise, and strong decisions that promote the inherent rights of our own Diné people; let alone prove himself to be the kind of leader that is concerned or educated about the campaign of genocide waged by Israel. ‘

          And also repeated in the Indian Country Times.

          Navajo President Ben Shelly Lacks Homeland Vision in Visit to Israel
          indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/…/navajo-president-ben-shell…

          6 days ago – It should not shock or surprise us that our Navajo Nation President Ben Shelly has taken an unexpected trip to visit Israel, a government that….

          And in the even harsher in the Native News Network

          Navajo Nation President in Israel To Meet with Officials – Native …
          http://www.nativenewsnetwork.com/navajo-nation-president-in-israel-to-m…Cached

          Dec 10, 2012 – The Navajo nation president made an official visit to Israel? … and the leader doesn’t understand all that complexity, and how he’s wading into ….

          And more….

          Monday, December 10, 2012
          Navajo President meeting with Israeli Apartheid government
          Grassroots Navajos outraged, call Navajo president ‘war machine puppet’

          By Brenda Norrell

          http://www.bsnorrell.blogspot.com
          Dec. 10, 2012

          Navajo President Ben Shelly
          Navajos reacted swiftly today to the news that Navajo President Ben Shelly is meeting with the Apartheid government of Israel today. The news comes the same day that Native American musician and poet Joy Harjo rejected a petition from Native Americans and Palestinians to cancel her performance in Israel.

          Outraged grassroots Navajos called Shelly a “war machine puppet.”

          Louise Benally, Dine’ resisting relocation at Big Mountain, Arizona, said, “Ben should stay in Israel, to learn how to farm, they are only puppets for the war machines.”

          “Is he learning how to farm food, or weapons of mass destruction?” said Benally, among those on Black Mesa who say the Navajo Nation government is a puppet government of the US, which abandoned them for coal mining and power plant dollars.

          Reacting to Shelly being in Israel, grassroots Navajos quoted Russell Means.

          Means said, “Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian. What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said in 2009 before he became ill with cancer. Further, Means pointed out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

  10. RE: “In short, the [Greater Israel] lobby is bad for America. But it’s worse for Jews. How dare these hacks and lobbyists jeopardize our future in the best home Jews have ever had?” ~ M.J. Rosenberg

    MY COMMENT: It will be interesting to see what position my “chickenhawk” senator Saxby Chambliss takes on Hagel. Chambliss has been on the Israel Project’s “board of advisors” since he was first elected to the U.S. Senate back in 2002. Then a congressman, Chambliss advanced to the U.S. Senate by defeating the incumbent senator Max Cleland (D-GA), a recipient of both the Silver Star and the Bronze Star for valorous action in combat during the Vietnam War.

    FROM WIKIPEDIA [Saxby Chambliss]:

    (EXCERPT) . . . [Saxby] Chambliss focused on the issue of national defense and homeland security during his campaign, and
    released an ad that included Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, highlighting Cleland’s record on the issues of war and terrorism.*
    [8]
    Chambliss received criticism from Democrats and Republicans for this ad, pointing out that he, who hadn’t served in the Vietnam War due to receiving military deferments, had attacked a Vietnam War veteran who lost three limbs during his service for not being tough enough on issues of war and homeland security. Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona said of one ad, “[I]t’s worse than disgraceful, it’s reprehensible;” Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska said the ads were “beyond offensive to me.”[9] On the other hand, Chambliss supporters say the ad did not question Cleland’s patriotism, but rather his judgment.[10][11] . . .

    SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org

    * Sho does smell a “whole heap” like Arthur J. Finkelstein!

  11. seafoid says:

    Israel you’re gone too far and you should hang your head in shame

  12. FACEBOOK PAGE: Chuck Hagel for Secretary of Defense
    TO “LIKE” – link to facebook.com

  13. amigo says:

    Well if the Zionists fear him, then he is perfect for the job.

  14. Nevada Ned says:

    During the recent election, I saw a lot of television advertisements from the Republican Jewish Committee, urging people to vote against Obama for several reasons, including Obama allegedly not supportive of Israel. Because I live in Nevada, a swing state, the advertisements bombarded me nonstop.

    As far as I can tell, these ads had little or no effect. No Jewish friend said to me, “you know, I was going to vote for Obama, but these ads from the Republican Jewish committee made very telling arguments, and I’ve changed my mind.” No non-Jewish friend said anything similar either.

    Probably 95% of the electorate had their minds made up several months before the election anyway. Sheldon Adelson wasted almost all of his mega-donation. The one case where his candidate won was the Senatorial race between Shelly Berkley (D) and Dean Heller (R). Heller (a Mormon) defeated Berkley (Jewish) in a very tight race. Berkley had AIPAC support and a statewide Democratic registration edge. But she also had ethics problems, and Berkley’s ethics problems were Heller’s only real issue.

  15. RE: The nonexistent ‘Jewish lobby’ sets out to destroy Chuck Hagel”

    SEE THIS VIDEO (48:27) – Dispatches: Inside Britain’s Israel Lobby [from the UK's 'Channel 4'] (Full Version) Rating: 3.9/5
    November 16 2009 – Dispatches investigates one of the most powerful and influential political lobbies in Britain, which is working in support of the interests of the State of Israel.
    Despite wielding great influence among the highest realms of British politics and media, little is known about the individuals and groups which collectively are known as the pro-Israel lobby.
    Political commentator Peter Oborne sets out to establish who they are, how they are funded, how they work and what influence they have, from the key groups to the wealthy individuals who help bankroll the lobbying.
    He investigates how accountable, transparent and open to scrutiny the lobby is, particularly in regard to its funding and financial support of MPs.
    The pro-Israel lobby aims to shape the debate about Britain’s relationship with Israel and future foreign policies relating to it.
    Oborne examines how the lobby operates from within parliament and the tactics it employs behind the scenes when engaging with print and broadcast media.
    ● LINK – link to undergrounddocumentaries.com

    ● ALSO ON YouTube – link to youtube.com

    ● AND HERE – link to niqnaq.wordpress.com

  16. piotr says:

    A comment in US News and World Report:

    Justin Logan is director of foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute.

    When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When the law is on your side, argue the law. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, call your opponent an anti-Semite.

    Such is the neoconservative approach to the marketplace of ideas.

    Apparently, American establishment has quite a few non-neocon members, and when you make a roll-coll “are you, or have you been a neo-con or do you actively support neo-cons”, only a minority provides “aye”. The story in the mainstream media seems to be that Hagel is under neo-con attack, and that accusations are “absurd”. The sub-story seems to be that neo-cons (a shorthand of course, but we all know what it means) manage to put together a nice pyramid structure enhancing their influence way beyond their sheer numbers, alienating and intimidating people so quite a few were waiting for a good opportunity to cut them down to size. We commented how J-Street got intimidated and house-trained by the Lobby, but it does not mean that they liked that.

    And all non-neocons who comment are of course aware that Hagel’s nomination is a good idea precisely because of his public deviations from neo-con orthodoxy.

    To summarize, I am not sure if Hagel will bring any positive changes, as Obama Administration is consistently disappointing, but at least he shows promise, and my guess is that at this time Obama would lose much more by dropping Hagel than by sticking with Hagel. Rice was essentially a nobody, I have no idea how many people in USA cared one way or another if she gets the post or not. Dropping Hagel would have distinct political cost.

  17. piotr says:

    By the way, is it official that Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer returned from Siberia and can be cited and interviewed as experts by the mainstream media? Perhaps MJ Rosenberg will be welcomed back too?

  18. Mr Rosenburg, you are a principled supporter of the rogue state of Israel. I greatly admire your principles, honesty and courage. I would be very interested to better understand _why_ you support Israel?

    • Mooser says:

      “I would be very interested to better understand _why_ you support Israel?”

      Has your no-account, one-horse, two-timing, three-strikes religion got its own State? Okay, question answered, okay? I mean there are princples, and then there’s the advantages, if only reflected glory, when your religion has its own state!
      Without Israel, you know what we would be? Just a bunch of Jews. That’s a fate worse than Zionism for some people.

      I didn’t write this, somebody else knocked me on the head and took over the keyboard.

  19. mhuizenga says:

    I agree that Hagel is being dragged down because of his mention of the “lobby,” but I also believe that pragmatically the biggest problem neoconservatives have with him is that he would be an impediment to war with Iran. And they most certainly wouldn’t want the lobby linked to any war with Iran either! (Although at this point it seems impossible not to link them since they’ve mouthed off so much about it). Hagel seems like the kind of guy who would vocally link the two if war occurred.

    The man might have his faults, but it makes me rather sick to see the people who lobby so much for war drag down someone who fought so well in one and is scarred from the experience. And after watching this takedown, I can only imagine how
    the Palestinians feel getting their names dragged through the mud, day after day by the same people.

  20. Les says:

    “the only voices that matter in Washington on this issue comes from Jews”

    I couldn’t agree more. Calling Christian Zionists serious partners as if the Israel Lobby was a federation, ignores that these old fashioned white racists push for the “rapture” knowing it will exterminate any Jews who remain — some partnership!

  21. biorabbi says:

    The Jewish Lobby indeed. While I respect many things about MJ Rosenberg(and I mean that sincerely such as his opposition to bigotry against arabs and Muslim like Bill Maher), the fact that so many anti-semites will find comfort in his words here saddens me. I actually hope the audio going around referenced above about Hagel and the Jewish Lobby and his Israeli senate seat ect… does not derail his nomination. He’ll be about as effective promoting his anti-Israeli views as Clarence Thomas has been promoting conservative views when his nomination was over. Pass the popcorn.

    • Mooser says:

      “the fact that so many anti-semites will find comfort in his(MJ Rosenberg’s ) words“Biorabbi”

      And which “anti-semites” (sic) will find comfort in his words? Do they have any names? And how have they “expressed” this comfort ? Or can you just tell?
      Wow, you must be a whiz at diagnosis! I bet you can tell what’s wrong with people before they even come in to the hospital, huh? Having all those wonderful preconceptions and prejudices must help, huh?

      Remind me never, ever, to get sick in Florida.

  22. American says:

    ”In short, the [Greater Israel] lobby is bad for America. But it’s worse for Jews. How dare these hacks and lobbyists jeopardize our future in the best home Jews have ever had?” ~ M.J. Rosenberg

    Sigh….sigh….sigh…..

    Do Not seek to fool the Unicorn buddy.

    You said you love Israel…you wanted the US to support it….you were/ are fine with forcing all Americans and the US to pay the price, financially, diplomatically and every other way, for the foreign country the Jews love.

    You, the Jews ‘in general’ who love Israel, asked for this, you demanded it, you got it.
    And now you’re upset about what your Israel co-lovers the Zionist are doing and how they are running the show? Well I don’t want to hear your whinning now.

    Principiis obsta — Finem respice

    • Mooser says:

      “Sigh….sigh….sigh…..”

      Yup, I agree, quite regrettable phrasing. “But it’s worse for Jews”? Yeah, like that asteroid that’s going to destroy the earth in 300 million years.
      And I always thought I had a future here as an American, no matter what the church, or temple of my choice any given weekend. Please don’t appeal to me on the basis of Jewish-self interest. Excuse me for being nervous, but wasn’t that the same approach the Zionists used?

    • Antidote says:

      “How dare these hacks and lobbyists jeopardize our future in the best home Jews have ever had?”

      Well, it was the best home Native Americans ever had before “hacks and lobbyists” settled the allegedly ‘promised land’ and erected the ‘shining city upon the hill”

      JFK 1961:

      “we are setting out upon a voyage in 1961 no less hazardous than that undertaken by the Arbella in 1630. We are committing ourselves to tasks of statecraft no less fantastic than that of governing the Massachusetts Bay Colony, beset as it was then by terror without and disorder within.”

      Who were the terrorists attacking Puritan refugees from England?

      us.history.com:

      “The Puritans of Massachusetts Bay were Calvinists, but with their own points of emphasis. They held the traditional belief that all mankind merited eternal damnation, but a merciful God had graciously granted salvation to a few, the Elect. However, they believed that salvation came at a price — God’s chosen people were bound by a covenant (contract) to see to the enforcement of God’s laws in society.

      Failure to do so would result in stern punishment, much as the Biblical Hebrews, an earlier chosen people, had been disciplined. Good behavior would not win salvation for the Massachusetts Puritans, but it would help them in their current lives to avoid wars, famines, and other forms of divine wrath. This concern about proper behavior resulted in an abiding interest in the activities of one’s neighbors.

      Wikipedia

      “Although the colonists initially had decent relationships with the local native populations, frictions arose over cultural differences, which were further exacerbated by Dutch colonial expansion. These led first to the Pequot War (1636–1638), and then to King Philip’s War (1675–1676), after which most of the natives in southern New England had been pacified, killed, or driven away.”

      Ward Churchill at Columbia:

      During the discussion period, someone asked what the policy toward the American Indian tells us about American civilization, especially its foreign policy. Ward Churchill was very succinct. He stated that the best analogy is to think of the Axis as victors in WWII and Hitler, or his successors, ruling over a worldwide empire. Taking advantage of my prerogatives as chairman, I added that imagine what Jews would feel like if they were living in such a Europe under Axis rule, in which they were still in ghettoes. Furthermore, they were poverty-stricken, addicted to drugs or alcohol, and were committing suicide out of despair in numbers all out of proportion to the rest of the population. To add insult to injury, a number of the leading soccer teams were called the “Hebrews” or “Jewboys” and had mascots with big noses. That is what American represents to the indigenous peoples.

      …. For the European descendants, it is possible to be seduced by notions that this country is democratic and civilized. In reality, it is a country that is based on conquest and genocide.”

      link to columbia.edu

      Also of interest is the outlandish theory of the Native Americans as the Lost Tribes of Israel – another holocaust?

      “In the 8th century BCE, the Assyrians dispersed the Kingdom of Israel, giving life and legend to the Lost Tribes. The repatriation of these lost tribes eventually became an integral part of the Jewish–and Christian–messianic dream, and there have been Lost Tribe speculations about numerous “discovered” populations. One the most fascinating–and unfortunately forgotten–such discussions centered on the Native Americans. How did American Jews respond to this? Why and how did Jews accredit or discredit it? What did these theories signify about American Jewish agendas and anxieties?

      …. James Adair, a 40-year veteran Indian trader and meticulous chronicler of the Israelitish features of Native American religion and social custom wrote The History of the American Indians…Containing an Account of their Origin, Language, Manners, Religion and Civil Customs in 1775. Even Epaphras Jones, an American Bible professor engaged the theory in 1831, claiming that anyone “conversant with the European Jews and the Aborigines of America… will perceive a great likeness in color, features, hair, aptness to cunning, dispositions for roving, &s.”

      Some of these writers were interested in Native American history, but most of them were just interested in the Bible. Indeed, the Lost Tribe claim should be seen as part of a general 19th-century fascination with biblical history. Explorations of Holy Land flora and fauna, the geography of the Holy Land, the life of Jesus-the-man, were very much en vogue. A close identification among some 17th and 18th century Americans with the chosen people of Scripture helped Christian settlers see their colonization of New England as a reenactment of Israel’s journey into the Promised Land.

      It also contributed to a more general religious mythmaking scheme that helped define the national identity of the United States. To cite just one example, in a 1799 Thanksgiving Day sermon, Abiel Tabbot told his congregation in Massachusetts: “It has often been remarked that the people of the United States come nearer to a parallel with Ancient Israel, than any other nation upon the globe. Hence, ‘OUR AMERICAN ISRAEL,’ is a term frequently used; and common consent allows it apt and proper.”

      A curious incident that drew considerable attention and “proved,” at least to some, that Native Americans had ancient Israelite origins unfolded when tefillin (phylacteries) were “discovered” in Pittsfield, Massachusetts in the early 19th century. Their discoverer wrote that this “forms another link in the evidence by which our Indians are identified with the ancient Jews, who were scattered upon the face of the globe, and to this day remain a living monument, to verify and establish the eternal truths of Scripture.”

      Around the time of the Pittsfield tefillin incident, Mordecai Manuel Noah, the journalist, playwright, politician, and Jewish American statesman, began spilling ink about the subject. Noah wrote a play She Would be a Soldier; or, The Plains of Chippewa (1819), that resolved the tension between the Yankees and the British by identifying the Indian Great Spirit with the God of the Bible. Noah’s ideas about Jewish-Native affinities grew in a distinctly political manner when he invited Natives Americans to help settle “Ararat,” the separatist Jewish colony he hoped to establish on Grand Island on the Niagara River around 1825.

      Noah’s writings on Jewish Natives came to their full expression with his Discourse on the Evidences of the American Indians Being the Descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel (1837). The work documented a host of theological, linguistic, ritual, dietary, and political parallels between Jews and Native Americans. Most importantly, he identified several essential character traits shared by the two peoples, all of which were, of course, highly laudable. For Noah, the conflation of Indians and Jews sanctioned the latter as divinely ordained Americans.

      Another notable Jewish-Indian incident occurred in 1860, when stones hewn with Hebrew inscriptions were found near Newark, Ohio. The story unfolded over the course of many months and was followed closely by The Israelite, The Occident, and The Jewish Messenger, whose respective editors represented the intellectual vanguard of American Jewry. Isaac Mayer Wise, the leader of the Reform movement in America, employed philological proofs to undermine the stone’s authenticity. He rejected any connections between Jews and Native Americans, though it’s notable that he bothered to engage the story at all. Isaac Leeser, a traditionalist, sided in favor of the Lost Tribes theory. Reviewing the relics in question, The Occident, Leeser’s newspaper, concluded, “The sons of Jacob were walking on the soil of Ohio many centuries before the birth of Columbus.”

      [...]

      Many of the major figures in nineteenth-century American Jewry weighed in–in one manner or another–on the Jewish-Indian controversy. The practical stakes were never high, but the claim–so ubiquitous and so fluid (since it was used for so many different functions by so many different people)–was taken seriously and fretted over by Jewish leaders of very different orientations. The Lost Tribe theory had significant symbolic stakes–for Jews, Christians, and Native Americans. Linking America and its earliest inhabitants with the Bible and its theology, meant staking a claim on America–and championing God’s plan for the New World.

      link to myjewishlearning.com

      If you think that’s an absurd claim to title, the Supreme Court came up with this:

      “In 1823, Chief Justice John Marshall handed down a Supreme Court decision of monumental importance in defining the rights of indigenous peoples throughout the English-speaking world. At the heart of the decision for Johnson v. M’Intosh was a “discovery doctrine” that gave rights of ownership to the European sovereigns who “discovered” the land and converted the indigenous owners into tenants. Though its meaning and intention has been fiercely disputed, more than 175 years later, this doctrine remains the law of the land. In 1991, while investigating the discovery doctrine’s historical origins Lindsay Robertson made a startling find; in the basement of a Pennsylvania furniture-maker, he discovered a trunk with the complete corporate records of the Illinois and Wabash Land Companies, the plaintiffs in Johnson v. M’Intosh. Conquest by Law provides, for the first time, the complete and troubling account of the European “discovery” of the Americas. This is a gripping tale of political collusion, detailing how a spurious claim gave rise to a doctrine–intended to be of limited application–which itself gave rise to a massive displacement of persons and the creation of a law that governs indigenous people and their lands to this day.”

      link to oup.com

      Special relationship, indeed. Israel is in good hands with her ‘honest broker’. The Palestinians – not so much, and not even if they could prove some connection to the Lost Tribes

  23. RoHa says:

    “As every poll shows, Jewish Americans not only don’t vote based on Israel, they are not overly Israel centered at all. ”

    So when are Jewish Americans going to repudiate, publicly and loudly, the Israel lobby?

    • American says:

      RoHa says:

      “As every poll shows, Jewish Americans not only don’t vote based on Israel, they are not overly Israel centered at all. ”>>>>>>>>>

      In the interest of shooting down these typically simpled mind, kindergarten claims like this one—– there is no way to know how much importance Jews attach to Israel in their voting.
      If one party or the other dropped their support for Israel and wanted to suspend US aid—-then you would find out how much Israel matters to Jews in general in their voting.
      Until then voting for democrats by Jews mean nothing on the Israel issue as Jews view both parties as supporting Israel with only a difference in whether they are more hawkish or dovish on Greater Israel.
      It may turn out to be true or it may not, but that’s the only way you could ever gauge it.

    • Mooser says:

      “So when are Jewish Americans going to repudiate, publicly and loudly, the Israel lobby?”

      Maybe we could estimate that if we knew what the price for, or, conversely, the advantages of doing such a thing. Okay, let’s say we got a nice-sized Conservative or maybe even Reform Temple in an middle-to-affluent American suburb. What would happen if the Temple repudiated Israel and Zionism? And would the repudiation come from the congregation, forcing the board or would the demand to repudiate come from the top down?

  24. biorabbi says:

    Turns out there’s more to Saint Hagel than meets the eye. He went postal over the possible nomination of a gay envoy to Luxemberg, calling the envoy aggressively, openly gay. No wonder Hagel’s got problems with the Israel, I’ve heard they’ve got some aggressively, openly gay types in Tel Aviv. Nothing to see here, moving right along.

  25. American says:

    If you’re willing to be lobotomized you too can get a job at the Atlantic and write about how the Lobby is mostly Christian Zios with very few Jews.

    link to theatlantic.com

    Chuck Hagel and the Neocon Smear Machine

    Robert Wright

    Let’s see what Wright said in his article.

    1) AIPAC is powerful like the NRA but doesn’t really ‘control’ anything.

    2) AIPAC- is actually made up of mostly Christians and very few Jews…..

    “The other complaint about Hagel’s quote, expressed by neoconservative Bret Stephens in the Wall Street Journal, is that Hagel used the term “Jewish lobby” instead of “Israel lobby”. This is actually a valid criticism, because the Israel lobby does in fact include lots of Christian Zionists, and for that matter doesn’t include lots of Jews.

    3) Calling Hagel’s reference to the Jewish Lobby anti semitic was actually valid. But Hagel can be forgiven because of his age.

    “On the other hand, “Jewish lobby” was once the standard term for what is now called the Israel lobby (especially back when the term was closer to being accurate, before Christian Zionism became a big political force). And it doesn’t seem to me that it’s an indictable offense for a guy Hagel’s age to have on one occasion used this once-accepted term — especially in light of the fact that he subsequently acknowledged it was the wrong term to use.

    3)The Jewish zionist …opps, I mean Neocons….can’t mention Jews….who do this character assassinating aren’t really scum, just poor misguided passionates about Israel who really are ‘sincere’ in their attacks, slurs and slander.

    ‘I used to think that all the “anti-Israel” and “anti-Semitism” charges were just cynical smears, and I still think some of them are. But I also think some of them come from people who genuinely believe that any severe critic of Israel speaks out of malice. These people are blinded by their passions, and the fact that their smears are wild and unfounded doesn’t mean they’re insincere. ‘’

    AIPAC is a Jewish Lobby for Israel. Started by Jews. Funded by Jews. Made up mostly of Jews. Period.
    And if they aren’t worried about how AIPAC is perceived by Americans or what it does why are they afraid of having it called Jewish?

    • seanmcbride says:

      American,

      AIPAC is a Jewish Lobby for Israel. Started by Jews. Funded by Jews. Made up mostly of Jews. Period.

      And if they aren’t worried about how AIPAC is perceived by Americans or what it does why are they afraid of having it called Jewish?

      Tokyobk is trying to argue that AIPAC has nothing to do with a supposedly nonexistent Jewish lobby! :)

      But AIPAC is a full-fledged and official component of the leading super-organization which represents the Jewish lobby — the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. AIPAC is, by its own definition, not ours, a Jewish organization.

      Some of these anti-Zionists and non-Zionists are as irrational and mind-boggling in their intellectual evasions as liberal Zionists and Likud Zionists. They are desperately trying to escape any Jewish responsibility for Israel and Zionism, even though Zionism is a Jewish nationalist movement that has been supported by the worldwide Jewish establishment, including the worldwide Jewish religious establishment (mainstream Judaism) — in other words, the Jewish lobby.

      • American says:

        Sean…

        AIPAC came out of the demise of the original ZOA after the 1963 Fulbright Senate hearing on the ZOA activities…..the source of their money and their activities in the US media. It took the place of the ZOA after the ZOA was caught taking money from a ‘foreign source’- Israel.
        AIPAC claims they don’t take foreign money as as a reason why they shouldn’t have to register as a ‘foreign lobby’.
        Grant Smith did a really good history of this –ZOA morphing into AIPAC.

        But my question remains….if the Pro Israel Jewish people think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with AIPAC’s activities and mission for what is the Jewish state why are they so touchy about having it called the Jewish Lobby? They don’t mind Israel being called the Jewish State in fact they insist on it.

        It amazes how dumb and silly those like Wright are to say that AIPAC is mostly Christian with ‘very few Jews”…..so what is he saying, that Christians love Israel and Jews don’t? The ‘very few Jews’ was the really dumb part, total give away, he could maybe have gotten by with Jews *and* Christians without looking like total tool.
        Saying dumb stuff like that just makes people more suspicious about why they lie. Can you imagine some Christian who doesn’t really follow the Israel/Lobby controversy coming across that statement and thinking…….humm, what is this AIPAC thing ? I didn’t know we Christians belonged to this AIPAC group… I really need to check this out and see what it’s about….LOL

        • It amazes how dumb and silly those like Wright are to say that AIPAC is mostly Christian with ‘very few Jews”

          american, there are upwards of 70 million christian conservatives in the US.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          As of 2007, members of Evangelical Churches comprise 26.3% of the American population

          that’s 81 million people. there are only 6,489,000 american jews (give or take 100,000,imho) link to en.wikipedia.org

          so anyway you cut the mustard aipac supporters are primarily christian, even tho it’s a jewish lead and run org. wright is not being dumb, he’s being real. without the support of american christians aipac influence would be nilch. now one can argue they are all being pressured, you can argue they are intimidated, you can argue they are sheep, you can argue any number of theories, but truth be told, in relation to the percentage of christian aipac supporters there are, relatively, “very few jews’.

          even if only half of those evangelicals were israel supporters (and keep in mind i don’t even think glen beck and his ilk are evangelicals) and 90% of american jews were aipac supporters (i do not think it is 90%, not when you count the voting age youth) that still leaves 40.5 million vs 5.8 million. that’s 6.9%. that’s what he means by ‘very few’.

        • American says:

          “As of 2007, members of Evangelical Churches comprise 26.3% of the American population”

          That in itself is a complete misrepresentation, evidently whoever is putting this crap out ( that Wilki is famous for) has not bothered to break down the 2010 US Census on religions in the US…or they think no one else has bothered to do it and so won’t contridict them.
          In addition to that NOT all Evangelical churches support christian zionism..very few do.
          I posted on here this past week an article citing the Evangelicals leaders themselves by good old Jeffery Goldberg in which they are lamenting the “lost” of their membership over all, much less the zio supporting element, and admitting they were a ‘tiny minority” in US religious circles and not a ‘political force’ of any kind.
          I posted last year the complete breakdown on all Evangelicals and the further breakdown of which Evangelic churches are christian zionist.

          If you are falling for this crap you aren’t the researcher I think you are.
          I dont give a hoot about the Evangels, I’m not ‘defending anything to do with the ‘christians’ ,I think they are crazy and I wouldn’t care if they made up all of AIPAC or not…BUT the fact is they don’t. So I’m not gonna let The Lobby’ mealy mouth their crap of …’who us?” it’s not really us it’s the christian zios”, it’s Americans’. It’s bullshit propaganda.
          So all this ‘oh it’s the evangels’ is for the two purposes we all understand very well….to portray The Lobby” as not primarily Jewish and to try and give the impression that ‘it’s more than Jews’ or it’s” not just Jews”
          that run the Lobby for Israel.
          Wright is not ‘being real’, he’s trying to mislead on and to soft pedal The Lobby and deflect attention from it being a mainly a Jewish led and Jewish member organization…because the heat is finally being turned up on it and some Jews are afraid it blows it will be ‘pinned’ on the Jews.
          Further the Christian Zios do NOT donate money to the Lobby—the main C-Zio money raising supporters donate money direct to Israel, they are funders of Isr settlements for their doomsday dream of day all Jews are gathered in Israel and convert or go up in flames.

          If you believe this…..”without the support of american christians aipac influence would be nilch.’…you have truely drunk the koolaide and are destroying your creditibility. Perhaps you think this is defending the Jews who are not involved in the Lobby but putting out idiot stuff that is easily debunked is not the way to do it.
          I tell you what you get AIPAC to release it’s membership roles and it’s donors names and if the Majority of it’s member are Christian and nnot Jewish I will disassemble this computer and eat it piece by piece.
          Do the research.

        • seanmcbride says:

          American,

          As far as I know, no Christians or non-Jews have served in high positions in AIPAC. Nor is there any sign that Christian fundamentalists possess any leadership or communications skills for articulating the neoconservative/neoliberal propaganda that is driving American Mideast policy and that is being generated by policy centers and think tanks controlled by the Jewish lobby. Nor does one see many (any?) Christian Zionist billionaires dominating the finances of the Republican and Democratic Parties.

          For the most part, Christian Zionists are pure fodder, not movers and shakers. They are being used by neocons like William Kristol, Elliott Abrams and Daniel Pipes for the purpose of building Greater Israel, and they will be spat out once they’ve been milked for everything they’re worth.

          If they ever catch on to what is really going on, and begin to comprehend how much damage neocons have done to Americans like themselves, they will probably explode in rage.

        • That in itself is a complete misrepresentation

          which is exactly why i cut the number in half in my calculations.have you read my entire post?

          i have already had this conversation numerous times in these threads american, and i am NOT backing down. jewish americans are a tiny percentage of the american population and without the support of that population, they would have no power, none. what we are seeing here is an excellent example of a tiny portion of our population wielding a tremendous amount of leverage because the other friggin 98% are afraid to get off their lazy a** couches and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. and make no mistake:

          “Further the Christian Zios do NOT donate money to the Lobby”

          the power of the lobby does NOT COME from donations to said lobby, it comes from their munchkins directing their funds and votes where they tell them too. and believe me, christian fundies know how to follow orders. there was a concerted effort by zionist to recruit this community. it was extremely calculated, and it worked. i am not one of the people who believe we have to change jewish consciousness to turn this thing around. i have said over and over and over my target is the 98%. so,to repeat myself:

          without the support of american christians aipac influence would be nilch. now one can argue they[christian fundies] are all being pressured, you can argue they are intimidated, you can argue they are sheep, you can argue any number of theories, but truth be told, in relation to the percentage of christian aipac supporters there are, relatively, “very few jews’.

          just like in congress, relatively most people who vote on aipac legislation are not jews. and anyway you slice it, voting is supporting. so wake up and smell the roses. it might be run by jews, but the power of the lobby is not the jews, it’s the people who support the policies. so you and phil and anyone else who might try, can run yourself dry trying to change ‘jews’/aipac, but if you want change..? change the people who support them, by numbers. christian fundies were not courted by israelis for their amusement, they were courted because they’re a strong voting and $upport block. when hagee speaks, they listen , they act, they spend, they vote. you wake up, i’m right and i’m not backing down. my target is the others, the other 98%, always has been, always will be. because we make it happen.

        • American says:

          And BTW if you do not want to take my research on this–maybe you will settle for what The Forward says about it…

          link to forward.com
          By Nathan Guttman
          Published March 15, 2012, issue of March 23, 2012

          ”AIPAC would not provide a breakdown of participants in its policy conference based on faith or ethnicity. An unscientific survey of the audience made clear that American Jews still remain the overwhelming majority, serving as the backbone of the pro-Israel lobby. AIPAC’s board, which reflects the group’s largest donors, is made up entirely of Jewish activists.”

          The article also goes on abut about AIPAC is trying to bring in blacks and hispanics ‘because’ the Jewish population of the US is expected to dwindle to .08%.
          I also posted last year an article by if americansknew on the ‘tactics’ AIPAC is using to try and lure non Jewish members…especially young and impressionable or eager for some financial advantage students particularly among blacks and immigrants , the ‘free’ trips’ the chance at ‘educational grants’, the promise of help getting a job in DC or congress or the government internships, etc.etc.. These people will not end up being loyal Israelist or AIPAC members, these students most of whom never hear of AIPAC or gave Israel a thought prior to being approached on campus by Israel activist are there temporarily for whatever they can get just like AIPAC is trying to lure them in for what AIPAC can get.

        • American Jews still remain the overwhelming majority, serving as the backbone of the pro-Israel lobby.

          ever seen a backbone without a body? good for about..nuthin.

        • The article also goes on abut about AIPAC is trying to bring in blacks and hispanics ‘because’ the Jewish population of the US is expected to dwindle to .08%.
          I also posted last year an article by if americansknew on the ‘tactics’ AIPAC is using to try and lure non Jewish members

          why would they even bother if they can rule the US without the rest of us? they’re just people american, they may be rich, they may rule the roost..but only because we let them. take away that support, their power is toast.

        • seanmcbride says:

          American,

          AIPAC would not provide a breakdown of participants in its policy conference based on faith or ethnicity. An unscientific survey of the audience made clear that American Jews still remain the overwhelming majority, serving as the backbone of the pro-Israel lobby. AIPAC’s board, which reflects the group’s largest donors, is made up entirely of Jewish activists.”

          What I’ve been saying, what I’ve been saying, from a highly reliable source within the Jewish establishment.

          The Jewish lobby is the main driver behind the Israel lobby — by far. The John Hagees are hood ornaments.

        • tree says:

          …they’re just people american, they may be rich, they may rule the roost..but only because we let them.

          But you’ve lost the point that American is making, Annie, which is that AIPAC is overwhelmingly a Jewish organization. It claims 100,000 “political activist” members. Membership starts at $1500 a pop and goes up from there. It’s not populated by hordes of average Christian Evangelicals, not even hordes of the lesser number of Christian Zionists among them.

          I think American is a bit too harsh in his judgment of Wright’s piece, but he does have a valid point with respect to AIPAC.

          As for the “Jewish Lobby” term, I find it no more offensive than the “Cuban Lobby” or the “Irish Lobby” or the “Catholic Lobby” or the “Gay Lobby” or the”Women’s Lobby”, or even the “Gun Lobby”. I don’t assume that such lobbies are endorsed by every Jew, or Cuban ex-pat, or Irish or Catholic or every gay, or woman, or even every gun owner, despite some of those groups claiming that they speak for all. If you have a problem with the Jewish Lobby not speaking for all Jews then its probably best to take it up with them, as they are usually the worst offenders as far as stereotyping all Jews, or at least all “good” Jews, as agreeing with their positions.

        • American says:

          “i have already had this conversation numerous times in these threads american, and i am NOT backing down. jewish americans are a tiny percentage of the american population and without the support of that population, they would have no power, none. “..annie

          Neither am I backing down because in this case I know exactly what the facts are.
          You’re claiming or trying to claim ..the Jews being a tiny percentage of the US population and Non Jews being the largest percent of the US population means that US support for Israel and the Lobby power comes from that larger Non Jewish population….based on the population numbers.
          Gawd!…go to bed, take a break, you know better than this –you know where the power of the lobby comes from and why most non Jewish politicans fall in line for AIPAC.
          Granted, there was some ‘general’ support for Israel among the public–DUE to the constant propaganda and promotion of Israel and the holocaust…..but it was and is as the saying goes, a mile wide and inch deep, Israel is something 90% of Americans never thought or think about or see as connected to them in any way…and even most of that has started disappearing over the past few years.
          Listen, NO One is going to attack or holocaust the Jews because some 100,000 Jews belong to AIPAC or because large parts of the Jewish community ‘generally’ support Israel or the ‘idea’ of Israel—–so all these idiotic contortions people go thru to try ‘pin’ the Israel fetish for the Jewish State and the Lobby blame elsewhere is not necessary. We know all about others involved and their various reasons..which rarely have anything to do with giving a damn about Israel . It’s actually ridiculous and defeats the purpose of honestly discussing why they and it are wrong.
          See my other rant if you don’t know the larger issue of what I am talking about.

        • tree says:

          ever seen a backbone without a body? good for about..nuthin.

          Of course we aren’t talking about an actual corporeal body here. We are talking about a lobby, which gets along fine with a strong “backbone” and not a separate “body”. In essence the lobby is the “body” that the Forward is describing.

        • American says:

          “why would they even bother if they can rule the US without the rest of us? they’re just people american, they may be rich, they may rule the roost..but only because we let them. take away that support, they’re power is toast.”…annie>>>>

          That’s not the argument you were making. You were arguing that that “Non Jewish” American support already existed within AIPAC or among Americans or AIPAC couldn’t do what it does or Israel support wouldn’t wouldn’t exist in government.
          But since you know I like you and your usually surperb work I’m not gonna razz you this one faulty argument any longer…:):).

        • American says:

          Good way of putting it Tree.

        • If you have a problem with the Jewish Lobby not speaking for all Jews then its probably best to take it up with them

          i have no problem with separating jewish americans from the jewish lobby, it’s people like bk who say things like ‘many people will think’. i also see a distinction between said lobby and the ‘pro israel’ lobby which , by design seeks to incorporate and be empowered by non jews, and they are.

          my argument is not about who rules, it’s about who supports the lobby. if a US politician represents 100,000 people, and he supports the lobby, by inference..they do. no different than taxpayers funding the iraq war. the only way you are going to get americans to make a change in foreign policy is to convince them that by not boycotting, or actively resisting that support, they are indeed fueling it, they will not change.

          americans are satisfied with burying their head in the sand and letting the leaders of this movement call the shots. and as long as they do nothing, they (we’re) complicit. so you can either point your fingers at ‘the jews’ (and we do, how many times on these threads have people rallied on jewish americans to take these leaders to task as if they had more influence over them than we do? while the vast majority of americans do nothing and do not feel complicit, responsible, while we are!).

          this is a national problem, a global problem and until people get it , that it’s OUR problem, as long as we delegate the responsibility to this tiny portion (really) of society, as if the ball is in their court, nothing will happen. we have to realize the vast majority of power behind this movement, is the american public (which is not the same as saying the vast majority of americans empower the lobby). only then will we see change. and if the american public thinks this is a jewish problem, one that community will fix, one we can fix by pressuring jews, we’re up sh*t creek.

          we need to pull our support for this lobby. because without the backing of us they will be isolated.

          i really believe this. i think we have the power. and i think we have the support of a lot more american jews than we imagine. we need to band together as americans of every faith and reject this cancer that’s driving our foreign policy. you know, all of us know, how many congress people’s signatures back up that aipac legislation. those signatures represent the lobby, not the few who are writing it.

          that’s my opinion. some people have been thinking the other way for a long long long time, and where has it gotten us? nowhere. we need, as a country, to reject this entity, pull our support, and then we will see change. until that time it will be business as usual. i still believe what wright says is correct:

          AIPAC and the NRA influence policy in their domains, but not that they “control” it.

          no, the control comes from the power of the collective, thru implementation.

        • tree says:

          i have no problem with separating jewish americans from the jewish lobby,

          Sorry, Annie, I meant that comment that you responded to be directed at tbk, not you. But you add support to my point. Most people don’t equated the Jewish Lobby with all Jews, but oft times the Jewish Lobbyists do.

          And again, American is not talking about the average person who “supports” the lobby, whether by comission or omission or ignorance, he’s talking about Wright mis-categorizing the Israel Lobby as having “lots of Christian Zionists” and “not a lot of Jews”. If its unfair to equate all Jews with the Israel Lobby, and it is, its equally as bad to claim that the average non-Jew is a member of the Israel Lobby. I get the point you are making, but its not refuting American’s point, and to my mind, miscategorizing what the Israel Lobby is does not promote the change in the average American’s acquiescence that you seek. Denying reality doesn’t promote an open discussion, which is sorely needed now. I’d even go so far as saying that denying reality about the lobby is a form of supporting the lobby at this point in time.

        • YoungMassJew says:

          “If you have a problem with the Jewish Lobby not speaking for all Jews then its probably best to take it up with them, as they are usually the worst offenders as far as stereotyping all Jews, or at least all “good” Jews, as agreeing with their positions.”
          That’s one of the reasons that they need to be confronted, in addition to needing to be held accountable to what they’ve done to the Palestinians. These Jewish billionaires and Jewish pundits on Fox News definitely create the impression among the 98% that most Jews support fascist ethnocentric policies that harm American interests. The Israel Lobby must be stopped by American Jews so the 98% don’t unleash unspeakable acts of violence against innocent American Jews who they equate with siphoning billions of their taxpayer dollars to a 21st century apartheid state. Yes, I care about human rights and what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is morally indefensible and needs to be stopped on that reason alone. But, yes, in all honesty I am also looking out for my self-interest because these billionaire Zionist Jews are going to cause a major backlash against Jews that had nothing to do with their tax dollars going to that rogue state.

        • YoungMassJew says:

          American says,
          “Listen, NO One is going to attack or holocaust the Jews because some 100,000 Jews belong to AIPAC or because large parts of the Jewish community ‘generally’ support Israel or the ‘idea’ of Israel”
          What makes you so sure of that? Americans, when they figure out what the Israel Lobby has done to America’s national security in the last 60 years and how the Lobby has been responsible for siphoning billions of their tax dollars to fund Israeli war crimes, are going to be fuming. When people get angry they don’t think rationally. They will see that AIPAC is a powerful Jewish organization and that they’ve been taken for a ride for all these years. Then they will start believing conspiracy theories like all Jews support Zio-supremacism, Greater Israel, etc. They are going to say, wait a minute, you mean these Zionist Jews have been lying about their intentions for peace with the Palestinians all these years and thus are going to be IRATE. I hope it will end peacefully like others have said in that all that is going to happening is that Jews are going to loose their elite status. Using history as a guide, I think people when angry and lied to resort to violence.

        • American says:

          “so anyway you cut the mustard aipac supporters are primarily christian, even tho it’s a jewish lead “..annie

          LOL. ……listen I live surrounded by Christian Conseratives, they are the majority of my area. I know them inside out….and yet, I don’t know a single one who supports Israel and christian zionism. Christian conseratives are guns, bread and butter and the Stars and Stripes and no gays, no stem cells, no abortion, no taxes…THAT is all they care about. They would vote to throw Israel in the sea tomorrow if it would guarentee them they could put up monuments with the 10 commandants inscribed on them it in every court house and outlaw abortions. Christian Conseratives seriously, seriously do not give a shit about anything but these issues.

        • You were arguing that that “Non Jewish” American support already existed within AIPAC or among Americans or AIPAC couldn’t do what it does or Israel support wouldn’t wouldn’t exist in government.

          ha! american, you can always just blockquote me. ;) as a matter of fact i do not recall writing whatever it is you’re saying here.

        • American says:

          YoungMassJew says:

          American says,
          “Listen, NO One is going to attack or holocaust the Jews because some 100,000 Jews belong to AIPAC or because large parts of the Jewish community ‘generally’ support Israel or the ‘idea’ of Israel”
          What makes you so sure of that? Americans, when they figure out what the Israel Lobby has done to America’s national security in the last 60 years and how the Lobby has been responsible for siphoning billions of their tax dollars to fund Israeli war crimes, are going to be fuming”>>

          Yea the will be fuming but that doesn’t mean they are gonna be burning down Jewish homes and forming mobs to get the Jews.
          This ‘fight’ over the Jewish Lobby and Israel in the US is a ‘boxing match’ not a duel to the death. We just need and are trying to ‘knock them out ‘ politically, not hang them.
          After 911 we had a few incidents where some attacked people who looked like Arabs, but did you see large numbers of Americans forming mobs or demanding all Arab Americans be rounded up and put in camps? ( Despite the best efforts of the Gellers et al to drum up mobs against Muslims?)
          I’m not saying it is completely impossible, people are people, but it’s so highly improbable it’s more paranoia on the part of Jews then a actual possibility.
          I don’t know what it would take for Americans to (or want to) en masse get violent toward Jews in general but it would take something truely horrific that I can’t imagine at the moment and even then I don’t think it would be something wide spread.
          I don’t want to sound preachy to Jews but they need to get over the idea that anytime others ‘oppose them” or fight them on anything it’s gonna result in some kind of holocaust.

          *And they need to quit falling for that fear mongering too because it probably makes some of them believe they have to cower behind the tribe for protection instead of opposing some of the things the I-Firsters do they themselves they might want to oppose.

        • Theo says:

          In other words, nice american citizens who doesn´t care about anyone else or the nation, but solely for themselves.
          No wonder the country is so strong and politically undivided!

        • American says:

          Theo says:

          In other words, nice american citizens who doesn´t care about anyone else or the nation, but solely for themselves.>>>>>

          That’s not the exact way I would put it….Americans are like all other people…and they will be charitable and helping toward people in countries under oppression or threat……*When it is put before them or brought to their attention*……but like people everywhere they are most of time thinking about their own everyday lives.
          America is not like Europe where a number of other countries are as accessable or close by as driving from Virginia to Georgia in the US—America is almost like on it’s own continent…so originally Americans were never as internationalized as Europeans.

        • Cliff says:

          YMJ,

          What precedent in American history is there to what you are proposing? Jews in America never had it like the African American population for example.

          See the New York Conspiracy Trials. That’s one piece of history you could probably History Channel it up to make a connection (and it wouldn’t be all aliens and pyramids either – it could be sensible).

          But I don’t see ‘Americans’ – abstraction – being upset about Zionism. I think we’re pacified by consumer culture and we have too many domestic issues to worry about.

          It’s too much work to convey a nuanced argument about Israel and Palestine without the gate-keepers and Zionist censors using the antisemitism slur, scantily-clad or simply attractive female Israeli soldiers, the Holocaust, Intel chips or tomato cherries or silent velcro, etc. to appeal to the attention spans of ‘the average American.’

        • Mooser says:

          Annie, you can decide for yourself which is more empowering, and which meets the facts: “All of you are part of the Zionist Lobby, you can’t help it, it’s your faulty religion!” or:

          “Zionism was imposed on Judaism because it had tremendous problems as a religion, and a criminal colonial scheme was able to take it over. And you as a Jew, don’t need them”

          I like the second, and I think it fits the facts.

        • Mooser says:

          Annie, the idea that the tiny percentage of us that make up the Jewish population in AMerica are powerful beyond all measure is an anti-Semitic idea! I’m glad you don’t hold it (I never seriously thought you did, although who knows, I might have said any damn thing, you know me.), but it alarms hell out of me that so many Jews do. I wonder why?

          And then there’s that whole knotty problem of why AIPAC presents itself strictly in the manner it wishes to be perceived? What organisation does that?

        • Mooser says:

          “Americans, when they figure out what the Israel Lobby has done to America’s national security in the last 60 years and how the Lobby has been responsible for siphoning billions of their tax dollars to fund Israeli war crimes, are going to be fuming.”

          There is no list of Jews in AMerica, no way of telling who is a Jew except self-identification in some respect.
          This is exactly what I meant abouit “using your knowledge to take action”, YMJ!
          Do you think there is a list of Jewish Americans which will force us all to suffer for the acts of the Zionists? And that certain conclusions about the way you must act and feel can be extroplated from the existence of that list? Who told you that? Is it true?
          We haqve a much better way, as hard as it is to adhere to, and that is “who has broken the law?” It isn’t perfect, but it’s been a while since anybody has made one Jew pay for the crimes of another just because they happen to self-identify as part of the same religion. Who told you this is still an imminent possibility? Why would they say something like that.
          Besides, with the great number of other people (Oy, I’m funny) immigrating to America from the Middle East they’ll never be able to trell us apart.
          Now, if anti-Semitism is so bad where you are that you fear for your life, come out here, where it’s not so bad. I’ll put you up until you get on your feet.

        • MRW says:

          YMJ,

          Americans, when they figure out what the Israel Lobby has done to America’s national security in the last 60 years and how the Lobby has been responsible for siphoning billions of their tax dollars to fund Israeli war crimes, are going to be fuming.

          Yeah. So. We fumed over Watergate (you’re too young to remember) and we fumed over being lied to about WMD in Iraq, and some fumed over Abu Ghraib and torture, but no one resorted to violence.

          Derision, yes. But violence? Not a chance.

        • i like the second paragraph too mooser

          but it alarms hell out of me that so many Jews do. I wonder why?

          it alarms hell out of me that so many people do.

          And then there’s that whole knotty problem of why AIPAC presents itself strictly in the manner it wishes to be perceived?

          if it presented itself accurately it would have to register under FARA. did you read malaka’s story on the front page today, about veolia. the little town council was infested with agents of bicon and infused with UK lawyers for israel writing crap the councillers would intoduce. for all the gossip read mikeo’s links

          link to mondoweiss.net

          it’s astounding. but this just goes to show how persistence andthe willingness to stand up to the bullies can win out! instead what do we do here? sit around staring at our tubes on sunday morning while representatives of one ethnic minority yammer on about the nomination of sec of state while bypassing the big story. the take down of another politician who dare sot stand up to israel.

          what ever. once you see it it’s hard to ignore it in the future. and we don’t have to be complicit.

        • American says:

          “my argument is not about who rules, it’s about who supports the lobby. if a US politician represents 100,000 people, and he supports the lobby, by inference..they do. “”….annie

          No way is a politician’s support for Israel indicative of his majority of “constituents” supporting Israel. Except maybe in some Jewish heavy districts.
          If you try to equate ‘support’ that way —- then you’ll be stuck with saying that the 100,000 Jews who belong to AIPAC represent the majority of Jews.

        • Citizen says:

          @American
          Yep. AIPAC is famous for sending out “helpers and lots of Zionist cash to back or defeat a government representative or candidate anywhere in USA–where the local politician rules, or wants to rule in areas without any Jewish resident voters, or very few.

      • libra says:

        seanmacbride: Tokyobk is trying to argue that AIPAC has nothing to do with a supposedly nonexistent Jewish lobby! :)

        Well Sean, what else would you expect a not-a-Zionist to argue?

        Surely if there’s one thing you can agree on with Mooser it’s that he had bk pegged quicker than yourself.

  26. biorabbi says:

    I guess you’d be a double threat in Hagel’s book of shame if you were a Jewish, openly, aggressively gay lobbyist for AIPAC. Bye, bye Chuck=)

  27. RE: “The nonexistent ‘Jewish lobby’ sets out to destroy Chuck Hagel” ~ M.J. Rosenberg

    MY COMMENT: “L’affair Hagel” is beginning to resemble the Salem Witch Trials, but with the the Puritans replaced by the Neocons, and hysterical allegations of “witchcraft” replaced by hysterical allegations “anti-Semitism”!
    J’accuse! J’accuse! J’accuse!

    FILM: The Crucible, 1996 PG-13, 2hr 3m
    Playwright Arthur Miller’s parable of the 1950s anti-communist crusade (thinly veiled here as the Salem, Mass., witch trials of 1692) receives lush treatment in this Oscar-nominated film adaptation from director Nicholas Hytner. After being spurned by her married lover (Daniel Day-Lewis), young Abigail Williams (Winona Ryder) stirs up a frenzy of hysteria and fear with accusations of witchcraft. Joan Allen earned an Oscar nod for her role. [SCREENPLAY BY ARTHUR MILLER]
    Netflix formats: DVD and streaming
    • Netflix listing – link to dvd.netflix.com
    • Internet Movie Database – link to imdb.com
    The Crucible Trailer (1996) [VIDEO, 02:30] – link to youtube.com
    • Scenes from The Crucible [VIDEO, 02:50] – link to youtube.com

    AT ABOUT 1:11:30 INTO THE FILM
    ● HIS EXCELLENCY DANFORTH: “A person is either with this court or against it. There be no road in between. This is a new time; a precise time. We live no longer in the dusky afternoon (pause) when evil mixed itself with good and befuddled the world. Now, by God’s grace, the good folk and the evil are entirely separate.”
    ● HIS EXCELLENCY DANFORTH: “No uncorrupted man may fear this court.”

    AT ABOUT 1:15:30 INTO THE FILM
    ● HALE: “Excellency, a moment. I think this goes to the heart of the matter.” [And then Hale argues that farmer Proctor should have a lawyer to present his contention in defense of his wife.]
    ● HIS EXCELLENCY DANFORT: “In an ordinary crime, witnesses are called to prove quilt or innocence.
    But witchcraft is an invisible crime. Therefore, who may witness it?
    The witch, of course. And the victim. Now we cannot expect the witch to accuse herself, can we? Therefore, we may only rely upon her victims, and the children certainly testify. Therefore, what is left for a lawyer to bring out?

    • RoHa says:

      “Who owns Judaism?”

      O.K., Mooser. I see where you are going with this. I am mildly interested, so let’s just get down to it. Here are some questions to start off.

      1. What’s your asking price?
      2. What return would I get on my investment?
      3. I’ve been told it’s pretty complicated. Could I run it myself, or would I need to hire a specialist with beard, dreadlocks, funny hat, and saxophone?
      4. Delivery dates?

      • Shmuel says:

        Could I run it myself, or would I need to hire a specialist with beard, dreadlocks, funny hat, and saxophone?

        Beard – Check.

        Dreadlocks – Do you mean sidelocks, or were you thinking of flying a specialist in from the holy city of Kingston?

        Funny hat – Check (they wear those in Kingston too).

        Saxophone – The beard, sidelocks and funny hat usually come with a clarinet, while the boys from Kingston seem to prefer the melodica.

        • Mooser says:

          “the boys from Kingston seem to prefer the melodica.”

          This is spooky! Shmuel, did you know that I got a melodica yesterday as a present? It was from a friend in Belfair, not funky Kingston.

        • Shmuel says:

          did you know that I got a melodica yesterday as a present?

          Of course I did, although my sources had your friend in Tahuya. Believe me, heads will roll.

        • RoHa says:

          “Do you mean sidelocks, or were you thinking of flying a specialist in from the holy city of Kingston?”

          I hadn’t got to that level of detail. Except for the interesting incense the Kingston branch uses, you are all pretty much the same, aren’t you?

          “the boys from Kingston seem to prefer the melodica”

          As long as they don’t use those creepy Hammond Organs.

  28. Mooser says:

    “Could I run it myself, or would I need to hire a specialist with beard, dreadlocks, funny hat, and saxophone?”

    RoHa, would you please stop misrepresenting me in this insulting fashion? I play the Hammond Organ! Not very well, admittedly, but I’ve never touched a saxophone! For God’s sakes, RoHa, that’s what Gilad Atzmon plays!

    And I’ve been swinging the heck out of all the Christmas tunes, (“God Rest Ye… as a minor blues, half-time 3/4 “Silent Night” as Gospel, all the usual, stuff like that) and if everything works out today (I’m sure it will) I’ll be playing them (mit sink-a-long) at my best friend’s Mom’s assisted living retirement community on Christamas Eve.
    The Santa suit will hide the dreadlocks and funny hat.

    • Mooser says:

      And did I mention that I should put up our I-502 video today: “I’ll Get Stoned for Christmas”? I’ll include a link if it gets done.

    • RoHa says:

      Please accept my deepest apologies, Mooser. I don’t know much about this Judaism stuff, and I thought that saxophony was compulsory for Rabbis.

  29. Mooser says:

    Okay RoHa, sorry for all the persiflage. Look, it’s a little bit like selling a house (title search, liens) or a larger business. We gotta figure out who owns what, what the debt load is, what our assets are, all that before I can come up with a price. I’ll get back to you, but remember, I gotta get it past the Jewish Lobby and the Board. They might have a completely different valuation. Look at what happened over atB’nai Jeshurun

  30. American says:

    “Moreover, those of us who do deeply care about Israel (although not more than we care about our own country) “………MJ

    Get this thru your head. You cannot serve two ‘different’ masters. You cannot have a wife and a mistress without one of them getting the short end of the stick.
    If you want to ‘save’ Israel……go to Israel and work on it “there” thru it’s own politics and government. Put your body where your mouth is and quit using and expecting the US to save Israel ‘for you’. The ‘support’ for Israel you have have created here is so corrupt it will never save Israel.
    And US Israel supporters have only themselves to thank for whatever happens to Israel after 65 years of insisting on and promoting unconditional US support for the Jewish State.

    • Citizen says:

      @American

      I agree with you. MJ assumes the usual conflation of strategic interests, none of which have existed since the end of the cold war, not to mention a conflation of basic values, like which ones, given institutional ethno-religious discrimination within Israel inside the green line, for example? Not to mention the endless land grabbing, and white phosphorus rain on native children in Gaza. MJ concludes: “In short, the lobby is bad for America. But it’s worse for Jews.” Really? Can a non-jewish American automatically immigrate to Israel at the drop of a hat, and get full rights equal to
      Jewish Israeli rights, and even cheap housing at government expense if they go to a settlement in OT? What benefit at all has the average American received from 9/11, War with Iraq, and what will they receive for War on Iran or Syria? We all know who in our socio-economic culture are families of American soldiers, fighting “the war on terror” which has definitely benefited Jewish Israelis, with promise of more of the same.

      Really? Is anyone free to marry whomever they want in Israel, with full support of the state?

      MJ diminishes the fact that the 98% non-Jewish America pays, and pays, in money, lives, and good reputation in the world, for its support of Israel right or wrong and the endless demonizing of Israeli’s chosen enemies. Dick and Jane have no skin in the game, but they are milked constantly in behalf Israel.