Michael Oren misrepresents 1971 synagogue bombing that changed his life

US Politics
on 481 Comments

The blast… was touched off the night that JDL national chairman Rabbi Meir Kahane had been scheduled to address a meeting at the building. According to the synagogue’s spiritual leader, Rabbi Harold Mozeson, several placards had been pasted in the town announcing the JDL leader’s appearance on the night of the explosion. The date however, Rabbi Mozeson stated, had been changed to May 2 and the posters were not corrected. Although Rabbi Mozeson declined to link the blast with Rabbi Kahane’s appearance, he did note that it was a “strange coincidence.” He disclosed that he and his congregants had agreed at a meeting yesterday afternoon that “Rabbi Kahane’s invitation for May 2 still stands,” and that the congregants weren’t “going to make our decision subject to this kind of hooliganism.” He dismissed the possibility that members of the Ku Klux Klan, who have stirred up trouble in Highstown, N.J., were involved in the bombing. Rabbi Mozeson told the JTA that Rabbi Kahane’s appearance would be the first in this North Jersey town, although he had addressed a meeting in a neighboring community, Livingston, without incident.

Newspapers differ on an important detail: Was Kahane’s appearance canceled before or after the bombing? The Daily News said the speech was canceled after the bombing:

While police were trying to determine a motive for the blast, it was learned that Rabbi Meir Kahane, head of the Jewish Defense League in New York, was scheduled to address the men’s club at 8 o’clock last night [April 18]. Because of the blast, the speech was canceled.
It was reported that there was a large demand for tickets for Kahane’s talk and that emotions were running high over his appearance.
But the Newark Evening News reported that the speech was canceled before the bombing.
The bombing occurred the night before Rabbi Meir Kahane… was scheduled to speak. Kahane, however, had canceled the engagement more than a week ago. Police said no bomb threats had been called in.
“We aren’t going to make our decision subject to this kind of hooliganism,” Rabbi Harold Mozeson, leader of the center, said. “We decided that Rabbi Kahane’s new invitation for May 2 still stands.”
Kahane– who was killed 19 years later in New York, allegedly by an Egyptian-American– himself describes the bombing in his 1975 book The Story of the Jewish Defense League, in a chapter describing his burgeoning popularity in 1971, taking on the “Jewish Establishment:”

[T]o the dismay of the Jewish Establishment, every appearance of mine or of another JDL speaker produced astoundingly positive results as Jews were able to hear for themselves the JDL philosophy and were astonished to see a totally different picture than the one they had been given by their Jewish groups and the news media.

Invitations for me to speak came from all over the country, and everywhere I spoke to packed halls. On my first trip to California [in early April 1971] the reaction was truly incredible. The rush to hear JDL speak was so great that not even the bombing of the Jewish Center of West Orange, New Jersey, could stop my speaking. On the night of April 18, 1971, a bomb blast ripped the synagogue where I was due to speak the following night… The talk was rescheduled and I spoke to a packed synagogue….

Former synagogue president Arthur Maron says that Kahane’s speech took place at the synagogue’s cultural hall and was a rousing success. “He was outstanding. He started the first Jewish Defense League after centuries. Remember this was a time when Jews were supposed to keep quiet, don’t make waves. That was the tradition. Kahane said, Oh no, we’re not going to stay still for this.”

Michael Oren never mentions Meir Kahane in his book. On other occasions Oren has blamed the Ku Klux Klan for the bombing.

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In February 2013, then-ambassador Oren gave a speech at his old high school. TAPinto.net, a website serving North Jersey covered his return to West Orange High School, and Cynthia Cumming reported:

The second life changing event he described [in addition to meeting Yitzhak Rabin that year] was the bombing of the Jewish Center of West Orange (now B’Nai Shalom) by the Klu Klux Klan in March of 1972.  He said he would never forget the image of a rabbi, priest, and Protestant minister walking hand in hand along Pleasant Valley Way and singing “We Shall Overcome.”

A month later, Oren told the story of the bombing to Jenna Portnoy of the Star Ledger in Washington, and again implicated the Ku Klux Klan:

On April 18, 1971, a bomb ripped through the Jewish Center of West Orange, known today as B’Nai Shalom, and it was initially blamed on the Ku Klux Klan. Firefighters, though not likely Jewish, leaped into the flames to rescue the Torah scrolls, he said.

“I can close my eyes and see that today,” he said. The next day, a priest, a rabbi and a minister held hands and walked from the high school to the synagogue, singing, “If We Only Had Love.”

“Can you imagine what this was for a 15-year-old kid? I get very choked up when I think about it,” he said, his eyes reddening.

“No fire was seen after the explosion,” the Newark Evening News reported that day. As for the KKK, Arthur Maron says:

“I would not say the KKK. That never occurred to us. I don’t know of anyone who would link them. Anti-Semitism? Of course. What else would I think. We all assumed it was anti-Semitism.”

I wrote to Random House publicity seeking to ask Oren about the bombing incident. I did not get a response. When Ron Kampeas raised another factual issue with the book, he approached the publisher and Oren’s “aides,” and: “I got a one-sentence reply from the publisher: ‘Penguin Random House does not comment on its editorial and vetting processes.’”

The larger issue here is not about Meir Kahane or a synagogue bombing 44 years ago. It is about whether America was the kind of place where a 15-year-old Jew could imagine his life unfolding back in 1971. For me and so many others, the answer was Yes. Michael Oren reached a different conclusion. Now he is misrepresenting history to try to convince a reader, or himself, of the wisdom of that choice.

Thanks to James North, Adam Horowitz and Peter Feld.

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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481 Responses

  1. Marshall
    July 10, 2015, 12:04 pm

    Hm, I always passed that place on the way to my dentist. I had no idea about this. Anyhow, the saddest thing about this story, other than Oren’s lies, is that there used to be something called the Newark Evening News. I lament for Newark, and for journalism.

    • Philip Weiss
      July 10, 2015, 12:10 pm

      That’s fascinating Marshall: I spent an hour reading it on microfilm and thought, Wow, what a thorough newspaper

    • Giles
      July 10, 2015, 6:53 pm

      Odd.

      I am about Oren’s age and grew up in a suburb of Boston that had, looking back, a handful of Jewish families.

      Never heard one anti-Semitic word and nobody made any kind of deal about being Jewish (Jews and non-Jews alike). Jews were just white people.

      Yet guys like Adelson and Oren seem to have these memories of being beaten up every day as kids because they are Jewish.

      ” I rarely made it off the school bus without being ambushed by Jew-baiting bullies”.

      I honestly think this guy Oren is completely delusional

      • Shingo
        July 10, 2015, 9:13 pm

        Yes Giles,

        Given the volume of lies and distortions from Oren, I am beginning to doubt the veracity of any of Oren’s accounts during his youth.

        Growing up, all I recall was that being Jewish was no different to being catholic or prodestant. They were all religions and nothing more. I suspect that is true of many youths who are bullies and who are too young to even understand what Jew hatred means.

        I was bullied and picked on when we moved to Australia because I was a foreigner with a dark complection and because I was a small skinny kid who was an easy target in a rough neighborhood populated largely by Anglo Saxon immigrants.

        I barely remember those experiences because I got over it and because my parents helped me understand that there are good and bad people out there. That’s not to say that anti Semitic was not alive and well, but I suspect that when you are brought up to believe that everything bad that happens to you is because you are Jewish, I can distort your perception about the world.

        I wonder if Oren also believes the trope that anti Semitism is passed on by mothers milk.

    • RoHa
      July 10, 2015, 11:33 pm

      Bashed up by a few anti-Semites?

      That’s nothing. When I were a lad …

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k

      • Brewer
        July 11, 2015, 2:24 am

        Got the bash myself a few times when I was young and in yer face. Very few of my generation got through youth unscathed. Almost wish I was Jewish.
        Y’see having something other than one’s behaviour to blame must be a tremendous boon. Saves all that introspection and angst.
        “They hate us because we are Jewish” avoids any responsibility whereas: “they resist being dispossessed, disenfranchised and bombed” demands introspection and redress.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 11:41 am

        “That’s nothing. When I were a lad …”

        You served a term as office boy in an attorney’s firm? You cleaned the windows and swept the floor, And polished up the handle of the big front door?

      • RoHa
        July 11, 2015, 9:53 pm

        But you try telling that to the young people of today.

      • RoHa
        July 11, 2015, 9:56 pm

        Never made it to ruler of the Queen’s Navee.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 11:44 am

        “But you try telling that to the young people of today.”

        Well, maybe they don’t listen, but I always tell them: “Stick close to your desks, and never go to sea!”

      • Steve Grover
        July 14, 2015, 2:23 pm

        But RoHa, Marty Feldman of the Four Yorkshiremen was a Zionist.

  2. Citizen
    July 10, 2015, 12:18 pm

    Not many politicians yearn for the truth, the whole truth, at any cost. It’s not part of their mentality.

    • Citizen
      July 10, 2015, 12:19 pm

      Additional to the Confederate battle flag, there are many other flags that should come down in public view.

      • Krauss
        July 11, 2015, 1:16 am

        The thing I don’t get is that these rabbis praise Kahane. That to me is the amazing part of this article.

        It shows that Kahane’s racist appeals were not confined to nutjobs. He was hosted by a lot of synagogues around the country and even today the past presidents will defend him to the hilt.

        That shows you that racist extremism isn’t just present in Israeli society.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 6:34 pm

        “The thing I don’t get is that these rabbis praise Kahane. That to me is the amazing part of this article.”

        Absolutely amazing, isn’t it. Looks like some people are still attempting to validate him.

  3. Donald
    July 10, 2015, 12:19 pm

    I’m going to assume it was most likely anti- Semites who bombed the synagogue– if Oren is telling the truth about his childhood fist fights with anti- Semites ( and with Oren assuming truthfulness is a big assumption) I could see why he had a distorted view of the U.S. Maybe he really did grow up in a nasty area, like the Pine Bush school district that is in the NYT today.

    Where I grew up in the 70’s I heard anti-black comments all the time– I distinctly remember two anti- Semitic remarks during that same period when I probably heard hundreds of uses of the n word. The two examples of anti- semitism stood out for me because they were so rare, though I assume there was some casual anti-semitism around that was rarely voiced. People were reading Hal Lindsay and believed that Israel was under God’s protection, so Christians were supposed to be on their side too.

    • Citizen
      July 10, 2015, 12:26 pm

      I was born in 1942. Growing up, I lived across the country from Ohio to upstate NY. I never experienced nor heard of even one fist fight between a Jewish kid and a jew hater. The areas I lived in were lower middle to middle class. I heard negative things said about black Americans often enough, but nothing negative about Jewish Americans unless I include the expression “jew him down” which meant somebody was an astute bargainer.

      • ziusudra
        July 10, 2015, 1:25 pm

        Greetings Citizen,
        Born 41, Park Ave. Williamsburg, B’klyn.
        There were nothing but Euro immigrants in the street in 45,
        my Grannies & evrybody else. They all sat on chairs from
        spring till autumn outside, including Jewish immigrants. There
        was nothing but harmony.
        Kent Ave. Williamsburg, B’klyn in 53 was no different, but here
        it was Italo contra Black youth in the street.
        Flatbush, B’klyn 55 majority Jewish & we Italos in a minority enjoyed
        bliss among them. I still remember the celery Soda & i thought Pastrami was italian. – My Lasting Impression is of a Hungarian Jew who owned a candy store being so impressed of me sporting a jacket at 16 in 57 wishing me well as to my prosperity, maybe he thought i was a Jew, he was a lovely man.
        ziusudra

      • Steve Grover
        July 11, 2015, 1:07 pm

        Like a good citizen, citizen sez, “but nothing negative about Jewish Americans unless I include the expression “jew him down””

        Its alright citizen, we’ll give that “Jew him down” a free pass.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 6:40 pm

        “Its alright citizen, we’ll give that “Jew him down” a free pass.”

        Gosh, “Grover” is there any aspect of Judaism or Jewishness you aren’t completely in control of ?
        Even in the matter of possible anti-semitic tropes, you dispense judgement graciously.
        (By the way, I know there’s a Royal “We” the Queen of England is entitled to use, so I guess you, “Grover” can have the Jewish “We”. Well, if you can pry it away from Hophmi or Yonah.)

      • Mikhael
        July 13, 2015, 12:06 am

        I was born in 1970, in Boston, and spent my childhood and teens years mostly in Boro Park, Brooklyn (where I lived in an Orthodox bubble) and later on Staten Island, in a mostly non-Jewish neighborhood (with a couple of years in Nebraska and back in my parents’ native Israel) .

        I can’t say I suffered terribly from anti-Semitic incidents, but as a kippa-wearing pre-adolescent and teen in the early and mid-’80s it happened once in a while that other teens would shout “JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEW!!!!!! from passing cars at me as I walked down the street. I also vividly remember waiting on the Staten Island Rapid Transit platform and the cute girls in Catholic school uniforms pretending to sneeze and while saying “HahJEW! HAh, hahJEW! and giggling their tushies off. One of the girls was our neighbor, and my parents were friendly with her parents, she didn’t participate in the taunts, but she didn’t tell her bitchy friends to shut up either. And I remember getting off the train and having a bunch of pennies tossed at my feet, to see if I would pick them up, because Jews love them pennies. At the very least they could have thrown dimes or quarters. I was involved in one fight with non-Jewish neighborhood kids over the summer where I was called a fucking kike, but I think the motive was just older bullies against new nerdy kids in the neighborhood we moved to from Brooklyn, and another non-Jewish nerdy kid was also getting picked on in the same fight, so I don’t attribute that to anti-Semitism, just bigger kids picking on smaller kids. All these incidents happened on Staten Island, can’t recall any problems in Brooklyn or Lincoln, Nebraska. None of it was a big deal, but it reinforced in my mind that America really wasn’t my country — but I grew up going to yeshivas and speaking mostly Hebrew at home too. On the other hand, during the years we lived in Israel I remember kids making fun of me because I was perceived as American, my parents being Israeli and my father coming from a family that had lived in the country for centuries was irrelevant.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:03 am

        “At the very least they could have thrown dimes or quarters. I was involved in one fight with non-Jewish neighborhood kids over the summer where I was called a fucking kike”

        That ain’t shit, Mikhael. My parents once sent me (G-d’s truth, my friend) to a freakin YMCA summer camp instead of a YMHA camp for two weeks!! I never have solved the mix-up.
        That’s where I got called a lotta names, and leaned the Hymn “There is a Balm in Gilead” (And you people thought I was going OT!)
        Anyway Mikheal, you grew up to be a great lover, and the world needs those, too.

        “I was involved in one fight with non-Jewish neighborhood kids over the summer”

        Get a job, (and BTW, “summer school” is actually a nice experience, too. Extra credit) stay the hell out of the streets!

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 1:14 pm

        I remember now, what happened the summer I ended up in YMCA camp. When I got back, my family had moved! House empty, no forwarding address….Jeez, I tell ya.

    • tree
      July 10, 2015, 12:53 pm

      if Oren is telling the truth about his childhood fist fights with anti- Semites ( and with Oren assuming truthfulness is a big assumption) –

      His description seems a bit off. He talks about scars on his knuckles but unfortunately I’ve known kids who were bullied. Knuckles are the last place they get scars. Bullies may get scars there, but most kids who are bullied get them any place but. You only get scars on your knuckles when fighting from landing multiple blows on someone else. Seems like he’s either lying about being attacked by bullies, or his ego has to make up stories about his fighting prowess — or both.

      • JLewisDickerson
        July 10, 2015, 4:32 pm

        I think it is best to assume that when Oren writes about his personal recollections it is more metaphorical than historical.

      • Donald
        July 10, 2015, 5:00 pm

        The bruised knuckles did sound like macho posturing from a future IDF soldier. Maybe he invented Krav Maga.

      • JLewisDickerson
        July 10, 2015, 9:18 pm

        RE: “I think it is best to assume that when Oren writes about his personal recollections it is more metaphorical than historical.” ~ me (from above)

        ELUCIDATION: In other words, when Oren writes about his personal recollections it is more like the “gospel truth” than the real/actual/historical truth!

      • Brewer
        July 11, 2015, 2:58 am

        Can’t speak for my Grandchildren, they seem to have grown up in a different World but I can speak for myself, growing up as a white kid in rural New Zealand in the fifties. Got beaten a few times.
        How much of Oren’s experience was due to his ethnic identity we will never know but what we do know is that the experience was common regardless of ethnicity. Judging by the fact that the mature Oren is obnoxious, I suspect the youthful Oren was equally so.
        Non-Jewish kids simply did not have the panacea of “anti-Semitism” to salve their wounds.
        Oren’s double-standards are very evident. In his world, retaliation against the likes of Kahane, Irv Rubin, Earl Krugel et al is anti-Semitism. Retaliation against Palestinian activism is Holy.
        No criminal action should be defined by the ethnicity of the victim. Anti-Semitism, viewed as a specific crime, is the type of thinking that gave rise to lynchings. In those cases, it was the ethnicity of the perpetrator that created the circumstances, not the act itself.
        Anti-Semitism is just the other side of that worthless coin.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 11, 2015, 11:32 am

        dickerson that video is too funny. i’d like to be a fly on the wall of your brain for a day. very entertaining indeed.

      • piotr
        July 11, 2015, 3:21 pm

        A comment on Disney movie on Hercules, linked by JLewisDickerson. All versions of myths compiled for children leave out the best bits, so I wonder if Disney presented that bit:

        “Another episode of his female affairs that stands out was his stay at the palace of Thespius king of Thespiae, who wished him to kill the Lion of Cithaeron. As a reward, the king offered him the chance to make love to his daughters, all fifty of them, in one night. Heracles complied and they all became pregnant and all bore sons. This is sometimes referred to as his Thirteenth Labour. Many of the kings of ancient Greece traced their lines to one or another of these, notably the kings of Sparta and Macedon.”

      • Giles
        July 13, 2015, 5:14 pm

        Scars on his knuckles?

        More consistent with someone his age or older having attended Catholic School than it is with someone being assaulted frequently.

        This guy is really confused.

    • Mooser
      July 10, 2015, 1:41 pm

      “– if Oren is telling the truth about his childhood fist fights with anti- Semites”

      Sure, all the 15 yr. old kids I had fights with over stupid kid-religious stuff were also explosives experts.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 5:51 pm

        Why do I have a sudden craving for braised knuckles?

    • echinococcus
      July 10, 2015, 2:26 pm

      I’m going to assume it was most likely anti- Semites who bombed the synagogue

      Strange. Why is that assumption? Can’t anyone but antisemites, as you call them, be mighty upset about a genocidal murderer going to speak? In those times, there still were a lot of veteran Bundists around, you know, so who says it weren’t Jews? Who says it wasn’t the Reverend Bomber Kahane himself, just to play the victim and create publicity–as he taught his young disciple Bornstein? It wouldn’t have cost him anything, with all his bombs lying around.

      • Donald
        July 10, 2015, 5:02 pm

        Well, usually when synagogues are bombed or burned, the perpetrators have something against Jews.

      • echinococcus
        July 10, 2015, 5:12 pm

        Not in a synagogue where Kahane is expected to speak.

        Not according to the perp himself in the opposed case of a Zionist bomber, because he sees himslef as acting on behalf of the Jews.

      • Giles
        July 10, 2015, 6:59 pm

        “Well, usually when synagogues are bombed or burned, the perpetrators have something against Jews. ”

        First comment. Really? Yet when black churches get burned down via arson as several have been in the past few weeks, the MSM tells us there is no evidence that the attacks are racial.

        Second comment. I have never heard of one Jewish synagogue being burned in my home state of MA in my 61 plus year. Actually, I never heard of one being bombed or burned in America until I read this item. Can you give me short list — say half a dozen of so — of Jewish synagogues that have been bombed or burned in America in the past several decades? Surely you must be aware of several instances given your comment

      • Donald
        July 11, 2015, 8:56 am

        Which MSM outlet says that the bombing of black churches isn’t racial? Some Fox News types wanted to claim that the attack in Charleston was an attack on Christians and not on blacks. But your comment tends to reinforce my point, though I agree that where Kahane is involved there are other possibilities.

        As for your second comment, I looked on Wikipedia yesterday and found some attacks on synagogues in the U.S., something you could do for yourself if you were curious and not simply trying to get back at me. Internet squabbles aren’t worth the time.

      • Donald
        July 11, 2015, 9:48 am

        I just did my own googling and yes, law enforcement agencies say that they haven’t found evidence that the recent black church burnings were racially motivated. I missed those stories–I had heard about a new rash of burnings of black churches. Now as for synagogues, in NJ there were two firebombings a few years ago, an attack in Sacramento in the 90’s and I found a few other attempts where anti-Semites planned on bobming, but were caught, along with a fair number of vandalizations and the murders in Kansas a few years ago (though If I recall correctly, the murderer intended to kill Jews and hit non-Jews.)

        There. I have been your trained circus animal. Note, though, that I made a general comment that people who bomb or burn synagogues are generally anti-Semites, which seems to be true, and you came back with a demand that I jump through some hoops because you had never heard of any burned synagogue in the U.S. I guess you leave the hard work of googling to your inferiors.

      • Giles
        July 11, 2015, 10:10 am

        “Which MSM outlet says that the bombing of black churches isn’t racial?”

        The Boston Globe and NY Times for example.

        Perhaps you ought to follow your own advice about looking stuff up yourself.

        NY Times article follows:

        No Evidence of Hate Crimes in Fires at Black Churches

        By RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA and ALAN BLINDERJUNE 29, 2015

        After a deadly racist attack in South Carolina and heated debates about Confederate symbols, a string of fires at black churches in the South has put congregations on edge. But officials say they have found no evidence that the blazes were hate crimes.

        Fires struck five predominantly black churches last week, and investigators say that at least two were arson. So far, investigators say, there are no indications that any of the fires were connected, or that racism was behind them.

        “As for your second comment, I looked on Wikipedia yesterday and found some attacks on synagogues in the U.S., something you could do for yourself if you were curious and not simply trying to get back at me.”

        I did. Go to that Wikipedia and click on any individual incident listed. No arson or bombings of Temples in the USA. The Temple Beth Emunah one in Brockton MA is a good example as I am familiar with that one. A crazed (and quite large) white supremacist type named Keith Luke went on a killing spree, killing three Cape Verdeans, none of whom he personally knew. The media reports amazingly spun it as Jews as the victims yet again, claiming Luke stated he was going to attack the Temple next (because when a white supremacist is killing black people, we all know that Jews are his real intended victims)

      • Donald
        July 11, 2015, 10:46 am

        You didn’t look very hard Giles. I found examples in a few minutes yesterday before you gave me your orders to do research for you.

        Incidentally, in my own googling I didn’t stumble across any reference to the bombing Oren writes about, so I guess that one didn’t happen either, or it’s hard to find a complete list.

        So there have been firebombings and murderous attacks on Jewish places of worship in the U.S. just in the past few years, motivated by antisemitism. I don’t know what your point is.

      • Giles
        July 11, 2015, 11:33 am

        “You didn’t look very hard Giles. I found examples in a few minutes yesterday before you gave me your orders to do research for you”.

        Please then list the details of a few of these.

        “Incidentally, in my own googling I didn’t stumble across any reference to the bombing Oren writes about, so I guess that one didn’t happen either, or it’s hard to find a complete list.”

        Wikipedia has a complete list. The problem is, if you actually did into the details of any on this list, you will find it is largely ginned up. I can give you a few examples if you like. And the murder of non-Jews does not count just because you assert the intended victims were Jews.

        ” So there have been firebombings and murderous attacks on Jewish places of worship in the U.S. just in the past few years, motivated by anti-semitism.”

        List one attack on a Jewish place of worship in the USA in the past few years that resulted in one Jewish person being killed (I think you have to kill someone in order to describe the attack as murderous). Just one please.

        Lets be serious. Two Jewish women from the North Shore found a couple of pieces of meat in a Jewish cemetery in Lynn several weeks ago. We got several days of media coverage about this “hate crime”, a non denominational rally, and promises from the Lynn cops to solve this hate crime. I am pretty sure we would get some media coverage if there was an attack on a Jewish temple that resulted in the death of a Jewish person.

      • Donald
        July 11, 2015, 12:49 pm

        I was thinking of letting you froth a bit more, but I’ll obey your orders and do what you refuse to do for yourself

        http://archive.adl.org/presrele/hatcr_51/3405_51.html

        http://www.northjersey.com/news/lodi-man-19-charged-in-attacks-on-rutherford-paramus-temples-described-as-loner-1.1212341

        I think you know about the murderous attack on the Kansas City Jewish community center which killed three people none of whom happened to be Jewish. I think you know because of the weasel phrase concerning Jewish victims–sure, obviously there is nothing murderously antisemitic about an attack on a Jewish center which happens to kill non-Jews.

        Remind me to ignore all your posts in the future.

      • Giles
        July 12, 2015, 9:53 am

        “I think you know because of the weasel phrase concerning Jewish victims–sure, obviously there is nothing murderously antisemitic about an attack on a Jewish center which happens to kill non-Jews. ”

        How is it “murderously anti-Semitic” to kill non – Jews?

        I guess it has to be when you cannot point to one single example where a Jewish person was in fact killed yet you need to keep the meme of murderous anti-Semites roaming America alive in your own mind.

      • catalan
        July 12, 2015, 10:11 am

        “murderous anti-Semites roaming America alive in your own minds” Giles
        I don’t think that American anti Semites are “murderous”. However, I still do not feel comfortable telling people I am Jewish. This probably has something to do with my Bulgarian mentality. Still, I have been here for about twenty years; I want to be liked by people. Incredibly, despite my name, people don’t know I am Jewish – they ask me about the egg hunts and the Christmas trees and what church I go to. I do admire Jews who are not afraid to announce it. For me, I don’t want people to suddenly begin to think all kinds of weird things of the kind Giles expounds here – all this control everything, money obsessed. I have also heard enough times Jew and Jewish being used for synonyms for stingy, etc. I want people to think about me what a swell guy and not what a weird snotty stingy greedy Jew. Ultimately I put no faith in the American protestations of tolerance and much prefer to trust the blunt but open feelings of those like Giles.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 11:29 am

        I still do not feel comfortable telling people I am Jewish. This probably has something to do with my Bulgarian mentality. …… I have also heard enough times Jew and Jewish being used for synonyms for stingy, etc. I want people to think about me what a swell guy and not what a weird snotty stingy greedy Jew

        you’re really starting to sound deranged catalan. you live in albuquerque right? i’ve spent a lot of time in albuquerque, my mom’s family is from there and my son was born in toas where i lived for a long time. there are actually quite a few jews there (in new mexico), you should trying meeting some of them and coming out of the closet. a “Bulgarian mentality” is no excuse. you keep peddling this crap over and over again as if it represents a reality rather than your own paranoia. the existence of anti semitism is no reason to think it permeates the mind of the average person (in new mexico or anywhere) who, unlike yourself, is not obsessed with the topic or could even care less.

      • Bornajoo
        July 12, 2015, 1:24 pm

        “However, I still do not feel comfortable telling people I am Jewish. This probably has something to do with my Bulgarian mentality. Still, I have been here for about twenty years; I want to be liked by people. Incredibly, despite my name, people don’t know I am Jewish – they ask me about the egg hunts and the Christmas trees and what church I go to. I do admire Jews who are not afraid to announce it. For me, I don’t want people to suddenly begin to think all kinds of weird things of the kind Giles expounds here – all this control everything, money obsessed. I have also heard enough times Jew and Jewish being used for synonyms for stingy, etc. I want people to think about me what a swell guy and not what a weird snotty stingy greedy Jew. Ultimately I put no faith in the American protestations of tolerance and much prefer to trust the blunt but open feelings of those like Giles.” (Catalan)

        Have you considered therapy?

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 11:48 am

        “Catalan” if I believed in reincarnation I would pray that you would be reincarnated as a trout, and I could fish the stream you live in.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 2:52 pm

        i can’t stop laughing. you are on a roll today mooser.

      • Froggy
        July 12, 2015, 3:10 pm

        Mooser : ““Catalan” if I believed in reincarnation I would pray that you would be reincarnated as a trout, and I could fish the stream you live in.

        I’ll make the sauce!

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:48 pm

        “Well, usually when synagogues are bombed or burned, the perpetrators have something against Jews. ”

        Like the congregation won’t contribute enough to pay the mortgage?

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:50 pm

        ” I want people to think about me what a swell guy and not what a weird snotty stingy greedy Jew “

        Yup, a regular all-rightnik!

      • just
        July 12, 2015, 1:27 pm

        +10, Bornajoo!

        Thanks so much for that. I was on my back to respond to that surreal comment, but it became a jumble and nearly impossible to do. Yours is succinct. Bravo.

      • catalan
        July 12, 2015, 1:29 pm

        “there are actually quite a few jews there (in new mexico), you should trying meeting some of them and coming out of the closet. – ” Annie
        I know many Jews in Albuquerque, placitas, and Santa Fe. I meet many of them on a regular basis. We talk about this stuff and nobody thinks anything weird.
        As far as your observation that I am paranoid, I doubt it. I am a very successful government manager, have a bunch of people reporting to me and deal with some high level people. I don’t pretend I am Christian, I just ignore and dodge the topic. I can tell that some people know I am Jewish but out of respect don’t mention it.
        I don’t think that everyone hates or cares about Jews, the majority as you say probably don’t care either way. However, there is always the off chance that someone does care and has some very negative opinions. That has happened to me – I had a friend who one day out of the blue said something about all these rich Jews. Since I don’t know if I am taking to someone with the views of Giles or other commenters here (i.e. Powerful self absorbed Jews who are behind all evil) I prefer the policy of don’t ask don’t tell.

      • CigarGod
        July 13, 2015, 8:27 am

        Ha!
        The cure for paranoia has just been discovered.
        Just become “a very successful government manager…” (whatever that is) and you never again exhibit paranoia.
        I just can’t keep up with all the new scientific discoveries.

      • echinococcus
        July 12, 2015, 4:16 pm

        Bornajoo,

        Even though I’m far from being a psychologist, I beleive therapy will be lost on Catalan. Somebody should do a good deed and tell him that the Jews are not 97% or the population but 2-3%. so of course they’ll ask him about Easter eggs and Christmas mass –just exactly like in Bulgaria, duh!

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 4:39 pm

        “i can’t stop laughing. you are on a roll today mooser.”

        It is true, Annie! I loved fishing, loved fishing stuff (lures, reels, poles you know) but I could not catch a fish. I used to actually dream about a fish striking my lure.
        I did catch a fish finally and when I pulled it in, it gave me such a look. My Mom used to look at me like that when I did something dumb. I unhooked it and released it, and left the fish alone from then on. Still, sometimes when I get a nice slice Novy on my bagel I wonder… could it be…?

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 8:51 pm

        my dad used to go fishing a fair amount, but i never recall him catching a fish. then when 4 of his children were teenagers (all at once), he bought a little monterey fishing boat and would spend his weekends on it. i went out with him sometimes. he would stand there with his little hat and fishing coat as serene as ever, but the fish didn’t bite. he liked all that fishing stuff too (lures, reels, poles you know).

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:18 am

        I should have taken that fish home, built an aquarium or pond, and given Mom the kind of reincarnation she deserved. She was only lightly hooked through the lip, too. Instead I threw her back into the drink. I’d better go throw one back, myself. Lotta guilt over that.
        So know you know the real reason I never fished again.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 11:21 am

        “Remind me to ignore all your posts in the future.”

        Donald, I give you the same advice I gave “tokyobk”, and that is: “Don’t relax your vigilance!” Yes, it is an unpleasant duty, combing over the texts and determining just how much is in it, but we can’t just ignore it!

  4. Annie Robbins
    July 10, 2015, 12:30 pm

    this is an important article, for history’s sake. thanks to phil, james, adam, and peter.

    • Giles
      July 12, 2015, 12:32 pm

      Catalan:

      “I don’t think that American anti Semites are “murderous”. However, I still do not feel comfortable telling people I am Jewish”.

      That is your problem and yours alone. There is no reason for you to hide the fact you are Jewish in America. Well, maybe there are some places like militia camps where it would not be wise to do so.

      “…all kinds of weird things of the kind Giles expounds here – all this control everything, money obsessed”.

      Catalan. You are better than that. I hope. I have never made a single comment that would even suggest that I believe Jews everything or are money obsessed. Please prove otherwise if you can. This is a classic reaction to some of the uncomfortable truths I do not shy away from (unreasonable Jewish paranoia that causes some to see anti-Semitism where there is none, the power of the Zionist structure in America throughout the Fed, Wall Street, the mainstream media, the Hollywood propaganda apparatus, Congress (via AIPAC), etc.)

  5. yonah fredman
    July 10, 2015, 12:42 pm

    In 1971, very few American Jews decided to trade in their American future for an Israeli future. Many more were like Phil Weiss with little thought about moving to Israel and very few were like Michael Oren.

    Oren seems to skimp on the details that would slow the paragraph or the story down. He is writing the fiction version of his life rather than the historical version.

    Many places received threats when Kahane came to speak, but this was the one place where the threat was fulfilled. From Oren’s reaction I would guess that it was a neighborhood with a significant population of antiJewish sentimentalists. I wonder what percentage of american jews in 1971 experienced the antiJewish sentiment that Oren seems to have experienced, I bet it’s not that common. I bet it’s not negligible.

    my dead friend larry told me that when he was in grade school in the sixties on long island, a teacher asked the kids their religion, and when he answered Jewish he was quick to add, but we’re not religious.

    • Mooser
      July 10, 2015, 1:45 pm

      “I would guess that it was a neighborhood with a significant population of antiJewish sentimentalists.”

      ROTFLMSJAO!! “antiJewish sentimentalists”

      Are those like “anti-semites”, “Judeophobes” or “Jew-haters” or are “antiJewish sentimentalists” something different?

      Anyway, they may be “sentimental”, but they’re good with explosives.

      “my dead friend larry told me that when he was in grade school in the sixties on long island, a teacher asked the kids their religion, and when he answered Jewish he was quick to add, but we’re not religious.”

      Then your “dead friend Larry” is doing it wrong. I learned that long ago, Yonah. When somebody asks me my religion, the answer is always, invariably: “I’m Jewish, you got a f–king problem with that?” It’s worked for me my entire life. I myself never, ever, ask anybody, can’t be forced to ask anybody, “What’s your religion?” I’d rather have my tongue torn out, frankly.

      • echinococcus
        July 10, 2015, 2:33 pm

        Mooser,

        By law, it’s that teacher who, should heshe ever have existed (considering that that’s a hearsay character in a Fredman story) who should have had herhis tongue torn out anyway.

      • Mooser
        July 10, 2015, 2:56 pm

        Yes “echinococcus”, I found a tale of a teacher who goes around the room making the kids tell their religion (and I went to “grade school in the sixties on long island” myself) just a wee bit improbable, but hey, who am I to contradict a dead friend?

        But jeez, if somebody does ask, don’t start by apologizing for it! I never apologize for Judaism. Just Zionism.

      • echinococcus
        July 10, 2015, 4:43 pm

        Your problem, Mooser. I never had religion.
        Only that doesn’t necessarily help, given my name, so I can’t avoid the apologizing for Zionism part.

      • Mooser
        July 10, 2015, 6:13 pm

        “Your problem, Mooser. I never had religion.”

        Me neither, but I’ll be damned if I apologize for it. I don’t think the Jewish religion has the power to be anything other than what people make it, so it doesn’t need any apologizing for. To apologize for it would be to admit it had some inherent power, and it doesn’t. It’s completely subject to the people who wish to practice it.

      • Giles
        July 10, 2015, 7:02 pm

        What’s wrong with saying your religion s Jewish if that’s what it is? Why the need to either explain it away by saying your not religious or go all Rambo and say you got an effin problem with that?

        What negative things have happened to you when you have stated you were Jewish?

        I am guessing none. In which case 100% of the problem is you and nobody else

      • Mooser
        July 10, 2015, 7:18 pm

        ” In which case 100% of the problem is you and nobody else”

        Yup, it is, I think I said that. I don’t believe anybody would ever ask me that question (“What is your religion”) for a good reason. I would never ask anybody that question.

      • echinococcus
        July 10, 2015, 7:40 pm

        Giles,

        What kind of a damfool stupid offensive question is that to ask?
        You must be a very patient person.

      • Steve Grover
        July 11, 2015, 1:14 pm

        Mooser sez,
        “I’d rather have my tongue torn out, frankly.”

        I’d rather have my tongue torn out, frankly than be a BDSer or an Israel hater.

      • Ellen
        July 12, 2015, 1:42 pm

        A few times in my adult life, I wasn’t asked my religion, but instead asked if I am Jewish? Those asking were Jewish acquaintances / future friends .

        Why was the state of being a Jew or not so important? Would it determine the rules of communication? Was it a way to sort me before they got to know me better?

        No non-Jew ever asked me that.

        Just my own personal experience.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 3:06 pm

        “A few times in my adult life, I wasn’t asked my religion, but instead asked if I am Jewish?”

        You are very lucky. Nobody ever asks me about being Jewish. Usually, people tell me about it. They give me a quick look and say: “You’re Jewish, aren’t you!”
        I have also heard myself described as “typical” many times.
        Oh well, you can’t fight your custard, that’s what I always say.

      • echinococcus
        July 12, 2015, 4:04 pm

        Ellen,

        Makes sense. “We like you and would enjoy having you as a friend, not just an acquaintance. Are you eligible?”

      • Steve Grover
        July 13, 2015, 8:23 pm

        Hey Mooser,
        Do you ever tell anyone you are Jewish besides here on Mondoweiss? And if you do, are you bashing Israel at the same time?

      • CigarGod
        July 13, 2015, 10:37 pm

        I do on a regular basis.
        Both.
        I want everyone I meet to know the difference between a Jew, and a Zionist.
        You see, I’m taking out an insurance policy.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 11:27 am

        “Do you ever tell anyone you are Jewish besides here on Mondoweiss? And if you do, are you bashing Israel at the same time?”

        “Grover” I very rarely have to tell people I am Jewish, they tell me. And if you think I deny it, you’re nuts. It’s useless.
        And no, I don’t “bash Israel”. Wouldn’t think of it.

    • talknic
      July 11, 2015, 1:50 am

      yonah fredman “my dead friend larry told me that when he was in grade school in the sixties on long island, a teacher asked the kids their religion, and when he answered Jewish he was quick to add, but we’re not religious.”

      Your dead friend Larry was brain dead before he died? WOW!!

      If he wasn’t religious why did he say his religion was Jewish? Surely later, as an adult, he’d have realized this , yet he still related it to you.

      Jews can be ethnically Jewish, but not religiously Jewish and it does sometimes help to clarify things. There are certain things one would never say to a person of Jewish religion, that might be perfectly fine to a non practicing Jew.

      If someone asks my religion I say I’m a religiously atheist. The usual reply is “‘I thought you were a Jew” I say, “Yes, I’m a religiously atheist Jew”. The same cannot be said of any other religion or ethic group.

      • Elisabeth
        July 12, 2015, 2:43 pm

        “The same cannot be said of any other religion or ethic group.”

        Why do you think that? It can be said of any religious or ethnic group that is not a majority in a certain country. If you are an atheist Copt in Egypt, or a Palestinian Christian for instance, you are still ‘ethnically’ a Copt or a Christian and identified as such. And do you think all those Bosnian Muslims were religious? In fact most were not.
        Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland were certainly not all religious either, but their ethnic/religious affiliation would still be clear.

      • GilGamesh
        July 13, 2015, 10:13 pm

        you never heard the term lapsed Catholic?

      • talknic
        July 27, 2015, 11:43 am

        @ Elisabeth / GilGamesh

        One cannot be an atheist Christian or Copt. Look up the word atheist!

        A lapsed Catholic is not a Catholic

        However, one can still be a Jew WITHOUT having any religious affiliations.

        Jews can be heathens too ya know!

    • hophmi
      July 11, 2015, 6:48 am

      This is yet another example of Phil Weiss assuming that every American Jew had the same experience he had, and grafting his own experience onto everyone elses’s, which is one of the fatal problems of his activism. First of all, Weiss is lying. Oren did not grow up in particularly privileged circumstances. His family was far from wealthy. But since Phil Weiss apparently grew up privileged, he assumes Oren did as well.

      Meir Kahane and the JDL also became popular because Jews in NYC neighborhoods were frequently the targets of attack by others in NYC. He was not just about Soviet Jewry, although you would think that people here could appreciate an extremist like Kahane, who gained a following criticizing the inaction of American Jewish organizations on a major human rights issue, the oppression of Soviet Jews.

      Jews who lived in Canarsie in the 1960’s and 1970’s were frequently beat up in school, for instance. Ocean Hill/Brownsville and the fights over local control led to a considerable amount of antisemitic invective hurled at Jewish educational professionals and Jewish leaders. Most Jews from that era experienced acts of antisemitism of some kind.

      • justicewillprevail
        July 11, 2015, 9:25 am

        Once again, hop enters a thread like a bull in a china shop, tossing unsubstantiated allegations and insults around with gay abandon. With your track record, I wouldn’t be so quick to accuse others of lying or or being inaccurate. With Phil’s record I would be much more inclined to trust him, knowing that he will correct anything if necessary (unlike your scattergun attacks, then run away approach).
        A quick check reveals that Oren’s parents were a therapist (mother) and hospital administrator (father). Sounds impeccably middle class, unless of course you class ‘wealthy’ as the super rich. Privilege is not synonymous with wealthy, btw, I know it is a bit subtle for you.
        The rest of your diatribe is unsourced assertions, contrary to the personal experiences mentioned here, so if you want to paint a different picture, back it up with some facts. You know what those are, right?

      • just
        July 11, 2015, 9:44 am

        “Oren did not grow up in particularly privileged circumstances. His family was far from wealthy. But since Phil Weiss apparently grew up privileged, he assumes Oren did as well.”

        “Oren was born Michael Scott Bornstein in upstate New York, the son of Marilyn (née Goldstein), a marriage and family therapist, and Lester Milton Bornstein, a hospital director.[7][8]”

        (wiki)

        Further, according to Irfan, a fellow visitor here:

        “One more mini-story: my father worked in the ER at Beth Israel Hospital in Newark in the 1970s; the ER there is named after Lester Bornstein, Michael Oren’s father. Small world.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/critique-rothkopf-reality#comment-777688

        Seems that you are the one who is “lying”, hophmi. I’ll ditto Marnie when she wrote below “What’s with your obsession with Phil Weiss?” Instead of your knee- jerk responses, why don’t you do some homework before you post?

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 12:36 pm

        “First of all, Weiss is lying.”

        Hophmi, my dear sir, please, stop! Please, Hophmi, I beg of you, please try to think back to a time (the MLI thread) when you thought you might be able put a shiv in Annie’s moderation and e-mailed Phil and then told us:

        “Phil agrees with me, by the way, that I put up with a lot of nonsense here; I’ve written him a number of times, and he’s always been a gentleman. I think he’s repulsed by a good deal of the commentary here.” – “Hophmi”

        And by the end of the comment, you paid Phil this accolade:

        “I’ve spent enough time around radical activists to know that many of them are very, very angry people, especially when they are Westerners. Feeling perpetually disenfranchised and feeling like no one in society ever listens to you can make you really upset, just as it does most two-year-olds. Phil, by the way, is not in that group.” “Hophmi” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi?keyword=gentleman#sthash.b7wF4Rs0.dpuf

        Perhaps, with the good offices of a Moose-of-the-world like myself, this rift in the lute can be mended, and you can admit Phil once again to the hallowed status of “gentleman”

      • tree
        July 11, 2015, 2:12 pm

        Here’s an interesting overview of Ocean Hill/Brownsvile :


        On the morning of May 9, 1968, a Jewish junior high school science teacher named Fred Nauman received a letter that would change New York City. The letter Nauman opened that day was signed by the chairman of a local school board in Brooklyn’s predominantly black Ocean Hill-Brownsville section, which was part of an experiment in community control of the area’s public schools. It told Nauman, a chapter chairman of the city’s ninety-percent white, and majority Jewish union, the United Federation of Teachers (UFT), that he had been fired.1

        The issue of whether this black local school board could fire this Jewish, unionized teacher on its own initiative, which was joined with this letter, would effect a fundamental shift in politics, culture, and race relations in New York City.It would result in a series of three citywide teachers strikes launched by the UFT in the fall of 1968 aimed at obtaining the reinstatement of Nauman and nine of his union colleagues, who were also fired by the Ocean Hill-Brownsville local school board that day. Lasting almost two months in all, and affecting almost one million public schoolchildren, the strikes would be the most bitter in the city’s modern history, rife with charges of racism, union-busting, and anti-Semitism.

        These strikes pitted the city’s white middle class, which backed the UFT, against New York’s black poor, and government, business, media, and intellectual elites, who rallied in support of the Ocean Hill-Brownsville local school board2 and the community control idea. They pitted the city’s traditional liberals and emerging neo-conservatives against acolytes of the “New Politics” and the New Left. Most importantly, however, they pitted blacks against whites, and specifically, blacks against Jews. For both blacks and Jews, Ocean HillBrownsville was a crucial moment of self-revelation. It exposed the hidden fissures beneath the surface of what many had considered a “model” relationship. It forced each to confront unrealistic constructions of “the other.” And, it created an atmosphere in which continued Jewish ambivalence about “white” identity became impossible. Under pressure from the city’s black community at Ocean Hill-Brownsville, New York’s Jews, primarily those residing outside Manhattan in what were known as the “outer boroughs,” came to grips with their whiteness and began to align with white Italian, Irish, and Eastern European Catholics, who only recently had been their rivals.

        more at link…

        http://www.gothamcenter.org/festival/2001/confpapers/podair.pdf

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 7:15 pm

        “Here’s an interesting overview of Ocean Hill/Brownsvile :”

        Yes it is, thank you much, “tree”. Well worth reading closely.

      • Marnie
        July 12, 2015, 1:21 am

        @Hophmi
        I’ll never get over the level of victimhood you claim, in the United States of all places! Young Jewish men aren’t summarily executed by police on a weekly basis; a synagogue wasn’t entered with 9 Jews murdered, the visage of Jewish men or women for that matter are not used for target practice by law enforcement and……do you see any of this at all? I am sorrowful for all victims of violence and hate, but for you and others here who claim eternal and unending victimhood, all the while living in the United States, which has been “good for the Jews” is just bullshit and you should be very ashamed of yourself.

      • just
        July 13, 2015, 5:41 pm

        Thanks so much for that great article and link, tree! It’s bookmarked.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 2:37 pm

        “Young Jewish men aren’t summarily executed by police on a weekly basis; a synagogue wasn’t entered with 9 Jews murdered, the visage of Jewish men or women for that matter are not used for target practice by law enforcement and……do you see any of this at all? ”

        Um, yeah, but this is whataboutery, and bad whataboutery. In the past few years, KKK gunmen have shot up a Jewish daycare in LA, a JCC in Kansas City. Terrorists have plotted to bomb Jewish institutions. I don’t think we need to show a Charleston-like attack to make the point that there are people who hate us out there.

      • Irfan
        July 18, 2015, 6:24 pm

        @hophmi

        Apologies for joining this discussion so late in the game, but I’ve been traveling.

        What Weiss said was that he and Oren “grew up in privileged east coast communities.” He didn’t describe Oren’s particular economic circumstances as privileged. But if “privileged” means “solidly, prosperously middle class,” that is an accurate description of the Bornsteins’ financial situation. Of course, a family’s financial situation can change over time. But upward mobility is a feature of middle class life, and it characterizes the Bornsteins.

        Someone below has already revealed where the Bornsteins lived. It’s a solidly middle class neighborhood. I’m one of the few people here who has actually been in the Bornstein home. Solidly middle class place. My father worked in the hospital where Lester Bornstein was director; being a hospital director is a middle to upper middle class occupation. Marilyn Bornstein was primarily a primary school teacher at St Cloud Elementary School; she combined that with a career as a therapist and as an author. Once again: middle class. Oren himself went to Columbia and Princeton. Yes, people go to such places on scholarship, but low income people are a rarity at either place, much less both.

        I’m curious where you get your knowledge of the Bornsteins’ financial situation. You write as though you knew them. I knew them, but I don’t know you. So I’m curious to know who you are and how you know what you claim to know. If you can’t answer that question, I’d suggest withdrawing your comment. You can’t make specific claims like that and hide behind a pseudonym. I’m revealing my full name, and my personal history. It’s just really tiresome for people who face no danger, and who know nothing, to act as though they face some great danger, and know everything.

        And for someone who is very loud and assertive about anti-Semitism, you have a very, very casual attitude about the sort of racism espoused by Meir Kahane. Being attacked by others isn’t an excuse for espousing racism.

        Coincidentally, I happened to be in attendance at a speech given by Kahane at Princeton in 1989 or 1990. Kahane had been invited to speak at Princeton by Yoram Hazony, Oren’s colleague-to-be at Shalem College. At that speech, Kahane was asked what should be done with the Arabs of the West Bank, and he said, without hesitation, that they should either be forcibly expelled or killed. That’s the genocidal fire you’re playing with and excusing here. Of course, that’s the genocidal fire that Hazony played with, not that his doing so was any deterrent to Michael Oren.

        In the years since that event, Hazony has never dreamt of apologizing for inviting such a figure to Princeton, or of apologizing for the filth he (Kahane) regurgitated before his audience. It seems like you think that a few childhood fist fights go a long, long way toward excusing all-out brutality. (Robert Friedman’s Zealots for Zion discusses Hazony’s invitation of Kahane to Princeton, but I don’t have the book here with me, so I’m not entirely sure whether it was the same speech as I heard. I’d hate to think that Kahane was invited more than once, but he may have been.)

        If we follow your advice through to its logical conclusion, the next step is to start pointing out that it applies to Muslims as well, in which case, we could start excusing the murder of some Marines here, the rhetoric of Hamas there, and a beheading or two by ISIS, all justified by the crybaby stories of growing up in some hard knock Islamophobic neighborhood half a century ago. Imagine applying the logic to the Palestinian shebab of Gaza and the West Bank? As in: “Hamas gained a following criticizing the inaction of the Palestinian Authority and the UN.” No one could write such a sentence without distancing themselves from Hamas. But you write about Kahane as though such distancing were unnecessary.

        One last point. As it happens, the Northwestern University sociologist Gary Alan Fine and I co-wrote a paper on 9/11 rumors. It’s called “Celebrating Arabs and Grateful Terrorists: Rumor and the Politics of Plausibility” in a book called Rumor Mills (Transaction, 2005). On p. 200 of that book, we describe a false rumor spread in the wake of 9/11 to the effect that the Arabs of the surrounding community celebrated 9/11. Who spread it? Rabbi Stanley Asekoff, then the rabbi of the very Temple Shalom under discussion here. You can find the page and passage on Google Books. When you spread a false rumor like that–as close to a blood libel as things get in America–it just becomes part of the fabric of people’s beliefs. And it stays that way, when people with the relevant beliefs wonder whether it’s OK to kill, torture, or occupy people “like that.”

        So what is the real story here? Is it the trauma Michael Oren feels about a crime that took place in 1971, or is it the line one can draw from a community’s invitation of the likes of Meir Kahane in 1971, to false rumors spread about Arabs in 2001, to a dubiously-written narrative in 2015–all connected to the same specific community (I mean Temple Shalom) acting in the same way in the service of the same cause? The latter, I think. But it’s very unlikely to be the story that gets told.

      • yonah fredman
        July 18, 2015, 7:12 pm

        Irfan- Regarding Meir Kahane’s career: meaning his public career. i’d divide it into 3: 1. Advocacy of Jewish self defense in urban areas. 2. Attacks on the Soviet Union representatives in the US. 3. His Israeli career.

        There is no question that Kahane’s Israeli career revealed a racist and an unhealthy mentally mind at work. But it is not fair to condemn people for their reactions to him in 71 based upon what he said after that point in time.

        Kahane’s advocacy of Jewish self defense in urban areas was not quite spot on, but with the explosion in violence in the inner city (New York murder rate more than doubled in the 60’s) plus the tension between Jews and blacks in NYC in particular, the reactions of the mainstream Jewish organizations were timid both in regards to the powerless poor Jews left in unsafe urban neighborhoods and in reacting to the Jew hatred emerging from the clash between teachers and community control advocates in Oceanhill Brownsville and Kahane stepped into the vacuum. (It is suggested that the FBI suggested to Kahane that he step into that vacuum, for they wanted to break up the Jewish black relationship. Nonetheless there was a vacuum opened for a charismatic proud Jewish orator and Kahane filled the role.)

        It has been reported that Kahane was approached by Yitzchak shamir, of Israel, and urged to change his focus from urban crime to the Soviet Union. I know that people here consider the Soviet Union’s treatment of Jews to be somewhere between trivial suffering to exemplary treatment but that is not my perspective. The chokehold that the soviets applied to the Jews living in the soviet union and their demand that Jews in their domain deny their own identities cried out for action from American Jews. The usage of misdemeanor harassment of Soviet representatives was low level troublemaking which was yielding major headlines and much press to the cause of Soviet Jewry. Kahane’s step into explosives seems foolhardy and a sign of mental imbalance. What was he thinking? And thus the end of his American career and the start of his Israeli career.

        Hazony’s invitation to Kahane in 89 or 90 is one thing. the invitation of Kahane in 71 was before his use of violence in America and his racism in Israel.

      • Irfan
        July 19, 2015, 6:54 am

        @ Yonah Fredman

        Your division of Kahane’s career is extremely artificial. The West Orange bombing took place in April 1971. By fall of 1971 Kahane was in Israel. By summer of 1972, he had organized a campaign for a show trial of the mayor of Hebron and for getting the Arabs out of the West Bank. In other words, that gives us about a year between the first and third of your phases of his career. It’s much more plausible to think that the views he held were continuous across his career with differences of emphasis at different times to fit different strategic goals.

        The fascistic nature of Kahane’s views was obvious from the start, whether he was focused on Arabs or blacks. I don’t have access to books where I am now (the West Bank), but this fact is documented both in Kahane’s own writings and in expert writings about him. In any case, West Orange is not and was not an urban location where blacks were attacking Jews. There were–by design–virtually no black people at all in West Orange in the days before the Mt Laurel decisions (1975 onward) because blacks were zoned out of such suburbs. You make it seem as though Jews in the metro area were nothing but victims of urban black crime. But it was suburban whites, including Jews, who victimized urban blacks for decades by zoning them out of “respectable” neighborhoods like West Orange, and who relied on outright police brutality to keep them in their place. The fascination with Kahane’s “self defense” rhetoric is part and parcel of this generally racist attitude. The Justice Dept’s report on Ferguson suggests that we’re still living with it.

        I don’t quite understand what you mean by “Jewish self defense.” It sounds like you mean Jewish anti-black vigilantism, and that you’re defending it. Are you?

        The usual method for dealing with crime is to call the police. That’s what the police and the courts are for. Sometimes justice is delayed or denied, but that isn’t usually an excuse for vigilantism. If Jews were on the receiving end of black crime, why couldn’t they just do as the rest of the crime-victimized population did–appeal to the police and work steadily for lower crime rates in the knowledge that it wasn’t going to be easy but that vigilantism wasn’t an option? After all, if it’s OK for Jews to engage in vigilante forms of “self defense,” why not white people generally? At that rate, you’ve just managed to invent a rationalization for a mid-Atlantic urban version of the Klan.

        If you really think that vigilantism is OK in principle, would you then agree that Israeli Arabs should be founding “Arab Defense Leagues” for “Arab self-defense” against thugs in Israel? There’s no shortage of such thugs: after all, how many Jewish residents of West Orange were ever burned alive like Muhammad Abu Khdeir? And Israeli Arabs have it easy as compared with Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza.

        It amazes me that people are still willing to make excuses for Kahane.

      • CigarGod
        July 19, 2015, 8:23 am

        It is because Hophmi and his gang here, want to win. They don’t want justice. By their definition, they are two different things.

      • yonah fredman
        July 19, 2015, 8:13 am

        Irfan- It is fine of you to construct a unified understanding of Kahane in 2015 that sees the continuity between Kahane circa 1968 and Kahane circa 1972. I was speaking for the shul that invited him to speak. They were inviting a controversial character but certainly not the above board racist that he was soon to be revealed to be.

        regarding street crime and vigilantism. I agree that vigilantism is no cure for street crime. but your advice, call the cops, is cold and easy for you to say. in fact the murder rate doubled in the 60’s. i’ll repeat that doubled in the sixties. thus there was a crisis. if the solution to the crisis was the wrong one, in regards to vigilantism, at least admit there was a crisis. in 2015 with the drop in the murder rate to early 60’s levels, you really have no right to be so apathetic towards the crisis that the inner city was experiencing in 1968. if you have no cure for the crisis: there indeed may be no cure, but at least fess up that it was a crisis situation. but no, instead we have an attack on the suburban Jews of New Jersey for their housing discrimination. great. it is good and great to focus not just on those suffering in the moment in the bronx, but to focus on the discrimination of west orange new jersey. i am proud of schwerner and goodman. but i am also proud that someone stood up and said, “i care about the poor jews left behind in dangerous neighborhoods.”

        the upper east side manhattan Jews and the scarsdale jewish limousine liberals as Kahane scolded them, were in fact as apathetic as you towards the crisis of the inner city Jews. And they deserved to be scolded. Leaving the old neighborhoods and not giving a damn about the people you left behind, is low. (Do you object to the idea of caring about poor people from one’s ethnic group? Is that too particular for your tastes?) Kahane was scolding those Jews whose politics included concern for long range social goals while being blind to the raw facts of leaving the poor Jews in the Bronx behind to deal with the facts of life of 1968 America.

        And what was an appropriate response to the Jew hatred emanating from Oceanhill Brownsville. I suppose that was all right too by you.

        I sense the possibility that you do not merely object to Kahane, but the mere idea of Jewish concern for other Jews, for Jewish pride in objecting to anti Jewish rhetoric. If that is your position, say so.

      • CigarGod
        July 19, 2015, 9:43 am

        Ha!
        No, dude.
        What you object to, are people who are not blindly loyal, whether Jewish or Israeli behavior is just or unjust.
        Evolve.

      • just
        July 19, 2015, 9:03 am

        I can’t thank you enough, Irfan. I hope that you are well.

        Thank you for your wisdom, your insight, and for the truth.

        “It amazes me that people are still willing to make excuses for Kahane.”

        The same folks that never mention the word ‘terrorist’ when it might implicate a Jewish person. They share a gene with those that scream for Pollard’s release.

        “Jailed Israeli spy Pollard on track for November 21 release – unless something goes wrong
        Parole board set to vote on previously scheduled end of his prison term, but sources deny any link to Iran deal.”

        http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/.premium-1.666604

        A “life sentence” means for the rest of your life and/or death to anyone else.

      • just
        July 19, 2015, 9:26 am

        “I sense the possibility that you do not merely object to Kahane, but the mere idea of Jewish concern for other Jews, for Jewish pride in objecting to anti Jewish rhetoric. ”

        You ‘sense’ wrong… again. Are you going to replace Foxman?

    • Marnie
      July 11, 2015, 8:45 am

      What’s with your obsession with Phil Weiss? I think he’s spoken for.

      At any rate, I wouldn’t be surprised if M. Kahane didn’t bomb the synagogue himself, just to get people on board with the nonexistent antisemitic threat; kind of like the burning of the Reichstag.

      You’re dear friend “Larry” felt it was necessary, in gradeschool, to annouce he wasn’t religious? In gradeschool?

      I imagine Mr. Oren looked for a lot of trouble when he was a teenager and started a lot of shit with people. Then cried about being a victim. However, I’m not saying that he lied about EVERYTHING.

      As Tree noted “unfortunately I’ve known kids who were bullied. Knuckles are the last place they get scars. Bullies may get scars there, but most kids who are bullied get them any place but. You only get scars on your knuckles when fighting from landing multiple blows on someone else. ” So scars on knuckles are offensive wounds, not defensive and Mr. Oren protraying himself as the battered and bashed nice Jewish boy sounds like a load of manure. He may have wanted to go to Israel sporting “battle scars” from fighting for this life against the antisemites in the US. Can you imagine all of the oohs and aahs he received?

      • piotr
        July 11, 2015, 3:38 pm

        I had slight experience with bullying myself as a kid, and it really seems that Oren had scars because he had to beat up some kids who refused to give him lunch money, since they were anti-Semitic and did not want to give money to a Jew. It is hard to get scars on the knuckles when one larger guy grabs you from behind and the other makes a wedgie, or in other typical bullying scenarios.

      • hophmi
        July 11, 2015, 6:03 pm

        Yes, yes, I’m aware of the trend here of blaming every anti-Jewish attack on Jews. It’s an old antisemitic game. And I’m sure no one here will call that out for Tue baseless accusation that it is, because underplaying antisemitism (I noticed that Phil seems to have ignored the long article in Vanity Fair about antisemitism in Paris too, http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/07/anti-semitism-france-hostage-hyper-cacher-kosher-market)

        I’m sorry, but the idea that Michael Oren was privileged because he was a middle class kid is BS, particularly since he was clearly targeted repeatedly, as he makes clear in the book, where he connects the antisemitism his family experienced to his father’s Zionism:

        “In the post–World War II, WASP-dominated America in which I grew up, anti-Semitism was a constant. Hardly confined to my blue-collar neighborhood, it festered in the elite universities with their quotas on Jewish admissions, and pervaded the restricted communities and clubs. Superficially, at least, we American Jews ranked among the nation’s most successful minorities. We took pride in the Dodgers’ace pitcher Sandy Koufax, in folksinger Bob Dylan, and actors Tony Curtis and Kirk Douglas. It tickled us that Jewish humor became, in large measure, America’s humor, and the bagel grew as popular as pizza. Jewish artists wrote five of America’s most beloved Christmas songs and practically invented Hollywood. One could hardly imagine a community more integrated, and yet we remained different. Alone among the hyphenated ethnic identities—Italian-American, African-American—ours placed “American”first. And only ours was based on religion. No one ever referred to Buddhist or Methodist Americans. As Jews and as Americans we were sui generis, as difficult for us to define as for others. A graffito on the wall of my bathroom at school asked, “Are Jews white?”A different hand scrawled beneath it, “Yes, but…”Anti-Semitism completed that sentence.

        “Whether being beaten up for my identity or denied certain opportunities because of it, I often encountered hatred. And after each incident, my father took me down to our basement. There, in a cubbyhole behind the stairwell, he secreted a musty album that his brother, another veteran, had brought home from World War II. Inside were yellowing photographs of concentration camps, piles of incinerated corpses, and snickering Nazis. “This is why we must be strong,”my father reminded me. “This is why we need Israel.”

      • Annie Robbins
        July 11, 2015, 8:53 pm

        he was clearly targeted repeatedly, as he makes clear in the book

        2 clear/clearly’s eh? sheesh w/the hasbara hops. like everything else in his book is true too? no – nothing is clear to me because oren says so. he’s a propagandist peddling his sorrowful lot in life in america. everything with a grain of salt. there’s an abundance of evidence nothing is clear at all, except that he’s displaying a man developing out of a runt of the litter mentality. unfortunately they do get picked on .. but it’s not always about racism when that happens.

      • Brewer
        July 12, 2015, 2:11 am

        Reality check on the article that Phil, according to Hophmi (rightly in my opinion) ignored:

        Anti-Semitism: The Numbers
        Over the 10-year period, the indices in France and Germany ended up in a lower range than where they began. The index in Sweden ended up in a higher range. The indices in Austria, Belgium, Ireland, and Slovakia went up and down. The index in the Czech Republic peaked in 2009 and has been falling since.
        http://www.slate.com/blogs/saletan/2014/04/24/anti_semitism_in_europe_statistics_from_france_germany_the_u_k_and_other.html

        Anti-Semitism, being a false construct, has a peculiar susceptibility to statistical manipulation.

        I have taken the figures from the table on page 42, pictured below. Note how the incidents are broken down into categories. The numbers of incidents are then totalled up arithmetically to produce the annual time series which formed the basis of evidence of a sharp rise in 2014. Let’s first say that there are some blindingly obvious issues with this methodology; for a start it equates an act of “extreme violence” with an act of “abusive behaviour”. That would mean that a year in which 500 Jews were brutally murdered but none insulted would be a “good year” for antisemitism compared to a year in which 1000 were insulted and none murdered. It’s a ridiculous methodology……..
        ……Combine with the above a survey conducted by the Campaign Against Anti Semitism which purported to show an increased fear of antisemitism amongst Jews, and then you have a complete media narrative on which to base dozens of scare stories. The whole premise is totally false.

        It would be possible to go much further into the figures and methodology finding more issues but this simple exercise above seems sufficient to completely discredit the main finding.

        It is often the case with crime in general that perception of crime rates increasing often occurs even as crime rates decrease. Such is the power of our media to create fictional narratives to serve tacit political agendas.http://www.thezionion.com/2015/02/08/the-fraudulent-rise-in-uk-antisemitism/

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2015, 2:23 am

        Spoilsport.

        (I like the pic of Ibn Sina.)

      • justicewillprevail
        July 12, 2015, 7:08 am

        So you have been unable to corroborate any of your assertions about Oren’s experience, or that Phil is lying, except by quoting Oren. If you can’t see the logical redundancy and stupidity of that response, then it is no wonder you repeat the same old fallacies every time you grace us with your chicken-on-a-hot-griddle performance routine. A more honourable person would withdraw their accusations of ‘lying’ but I don’t think i’ll wait on that one, given your weird stalker-like, attention-seeking, obsession with Phil.

        Co-opting a dodgy magazine article on European anti-semitism and the Holocaust is further evidence of your inability to answer the questions. I daresay you imagine it gives you the moral high ground which means you don’t have to stoop as low as to have answer the details of your random wild assertions. A cute trick, but repetition gives the game away.

        You just can’t get any traction here, can you? Despite the desperate angry-man denunciations, the hot-under-the-collar furious fulminating from the hoppy bunker. I wonder why, lol

      • hophmi
        July 12, 2015, 7:27 am

        Shorter Annie: Michael Oren didn’t really experience antisemitism. Any talk of antisemitism is “hasbara.”

        Shorter Marnie: Because Jews didn’t suffer as much as African Americans, they aren’t allowed to talk about suffering.

        Shorter Brewer: Antisemitism in France can’t be happening because antisemitism in Russia and Great Britain according to official statistics was declining as of 16 months ago, so the thousands of French Jews, mostly North African Jews, who have left France, are leaving for no reason.

        Yep, sounds like Mondoweiss, where antisemitism is purposely ignored.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 11:07 am

        Shorter Annie: Michael Oren didn’t really experience antisemitism. Any talk of antisemitism is “hasbara.”

        au contraire – i think oren probably did experience anti semitism. i don’t think “any” talk of antisemitism is hasbara. however, i think claiming oren was “clearly targeted repeatedly”, based solely on claims he made in his book, is. furthermore your assumption that everything he said in his book is true (ie he makes “clear” in his book) is also hasbara. your argument is prefaced by this alleged ‘clarity’ hops. which, as this article demonstrates (he made a serious omission in representing context by omitting key/crucial facts) is unwarranted.

        iow, you’re building your case on a weak foundation claiming it’s solid. it’s not.

      • Froggy
        July 12, 2015, 12:24 pm

        Hophmi : “Antisemitism in France can’t be happening because antisemitism….”

        A bunch of white people are walking along a Paris street. Some are in couples, others are in groups of three of more, still others are by themselves. Some walking briskly, others are looking in the shop windows, others are chatting with their companions as they walk along.

        How can anyone tell which of those people are Jewish? French Jews are indistinguisable from other people in France.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 1:02 pm

        “Yep, sounds like Mondoweiss, where antisemitism is purposely ignored.”

        Hophmi, the problem is that these people here (and there’s a name for people like this, they’re called “commenters”) don’t appreciate the depth and accuracy of your analysis of Phil Weiss’s problems.
        Sure, Phil’s got it bad, and that ain’t good (and “he never treats you sweet and gentle, like he should” neither!) but this fact-packed delineation will stand forever:

        “This analysis is nothing new. It is typical of Phil’s writing, which suggests, as it always does, the Phil has internalized anti-Jewish hatred, and like those secularist Jews in Europe who looked down upon their brethren or converted to Christianity to escape their Judaism, Phil adopts the classic tropes of the self-hater. The key point here is that he quotes Gilad Atzmon’s views, shared by some commentators on his site, that Jews control the world, ostensibly to illustrate the challenge of criticizing the Jewish community, and he missed the irony, which is that his critique amounts to the same claim.”

        Whap, bam, pow! Straight through the heart, and Phil’s to blame, he gives Jews, a bad name! But there’s hope:

        “American Jewry, and the American-Israel relationship will survive the Phils of this world. American Jews, long a positive force in American society, will continue to be, far into the future, and Israel will endure, far into the future. The Phils
        will
        fall away,
        as they
        always do.”
        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi?keyword=Fall+away#sthash.CK9zjP62.dpuf

        Wow, Hophmi, I can almost hear Phil screaming as he goes over the cliff!
        Are you sure he’s really a “gentleman”?

      • justicewillprevail
        July 12, 2015, 1:32 pm

        Shorter hop: when I can’t back up anything I say, I can always put words in people’s mouths and then act all outraged about what they didn’t say.. Another demonstration of the immaculate hoppy logic: cover up a malicious accusation by making some more. Nice!

      • Brewer
        July 12, 2015, 3:21 pm

        Shorter Hop.
        “Someone called me a fat Yid today. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!”

      • hophmi
        July 12, 2015, 7:31 pm

        Froggy: Jews in France don’t get abused when they don’t look like Jews. So there’s no antisemitism problem; why, just don’t do anything to look like a Jew, like wearing a head covering or a Star of David, or a Hamza, and you’ll be just fine.

        Sorry, Froggy. First of all, many, if not most, of Jews in France who experience antisemitism are not white. They’re North African and they’re Brown. So you are truly clueless. Second, they are the ones who tend to be the active Jews in France.

      • Froggy
        July 12, 2015, 10:32 pm

        Hophmi :

        “Froggy: Jews in France don’t get abused when they don’t look like Jews. So there’s no antisemitism problem; why, just don’t do anything to look like a Jew, like wearing a head covering or a Star of David, or a Hamza, and you’ll be just fine.

        Sorry, Froggy. First of all, many, if not most, of Jews in France who experience antisemitism are not white. They’re North African and they’re Brown. So you are truly clueless. Second, they are the ones who tend to be the active Jews in France.”

        Do you really think that there are bands of people who do nothing more than wander through the streets of French towns and villages looking for Jews to bother? -LOL-

        If these people existed, how could these spectral gangs of anti-Semites tell the brown-skinned North African Jews from brown-skinned North African Muslims, or Christian Spaniards, or Catholic Maltese, or Orthodox Greeks?

        Clearly you have never been to France.

        France is a multi-ethnic country. We have black people, many of them from Africa, North Africans, Asians, white Northern European types, and white Southern European types, amongst others. There is no way that anyone can tell whether someone with darker skin and hair is from Corsica or Marseille, North African, an ethnic Italian, Portuguese, or of mixed ethnic background.

        So how can anyone tell who is, or is not, a Jew? It’s impossible.

        You really need to get out more.

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2015, 7:55 pm

        Froggy, from what Alicia and hophmi have been telling us, I thought that trillions of Jews were fleeing France, and the remainder had to wear yellow stars and stand around in disconsolate, picturesque, groups, singing “Va, pensiero” from Nabucco, while waiting to be beaten up by roving gangs of a time-Semites.

        Are you hinting that A and h might have exaggerated the situation just a teeny bit?

      • Froggy
        July 12, 2015, 9:50 pm

        RoHa : “Are you hinting that A and h might have exaggerated the situation just a teeny bit?”

        Just a bit. ;)

      • echinococcus
        July 12, 2015, 9:21 pm

        That Hophmi character is really too funny for words. Please keep him. Lecturing us once more on what he really has not the foggiest idea about, i.e. the Jews of France.
        Of course anyone ostensibly wearing religious symbols risks attracting hostile comments. Wearing a moslem-style head covering or a fan beard with the same skull cap is way harder to do than going out with kippa and full harness and the missus with the funny wig. Even priests and nuns with big dangling crosses are not immune (in some places they are the most mocked.)
        Besides, if he had any idea he’d know that the Sefardí and the Algerian-Moroccans don’t generally dress religious, even though the young are doing it out of Zionism. The real provocatively ostentatious ones in religious dress are still the Ashkenaze.
        And a minimum of logic, please: considering the racist attacks organized by Hophmi’s brothers, the thugs in the Betar bands, in full synergy sometimes with Ordre Nouveau fascists, against the Maghrebine population of France, no one in his right mind would want to attract attention by trying to look like them.

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 9:27 am

        Echinococcus : “That Hophmi character is really too funny for words. Please keep him. Lecturing us once more on what he really has not the foggiest idea about, i.e. the Jews of France.”

        Your description is very accurate.

        I’ll add that ordinary Catholics very seldom wear crosses, not even here in Brittany, said to be the most Catholic of French provinces. (I wear a Crusader’s Cross, also called a Jerusalem Cross, because it’s a family heirloom. But I keep it under my blouse. I wouldn’t be comfortable wearing it in public.)

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2015, 11:44 pm

        And if you are wondering what a time-Semite is, it’s an anti-Semite that has been beaten up by software.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 6:11 pm

        In case anybody was wondering, “The Litvaks” (my all-male-Jewish-sport-bike-posse) have an interesting logo, or “colors” on our jackets.
        It’s a Star-of-David, looking panicked, being run down by a much larger 8-ball.
        Hells littlest Angels, and Mommy’s, too. That’s us, The Litvaks!!

      • GilGamesh
        July 13, 2015, 10:21 pm

        “a synagogue wasn’t entered with 9 Jews murdered,”

        I suggest you look up the Seattle Jewish Federation shooting. Only one murdered but not for lack of trying for more.

      • echinococcus
        July 14, 2015, 10:47 am

        Gilgamesh,

        Your note reminds us that no religious group is immune –Moslems, Christians, Hindoos, Buddhists and some Jews, too. It just indicates that racism still exists and kills. No antisemitism there, it hits all religions equally.
        Instead of beating “antisemitism” further the only logical thing to do is to kill the officially racist and murderous ideology of Zionism.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 11:31 am

        “What’s with your obsession with Phil Weiss?”

        Marnie, if you had a popular blog, and there was a consistent and annoying commenter, you might try to reason with them before you ban them. Well, Hophmi is giving Phil every chance to redeem himself before Hophmi takes the final step. Free speech is one thing, but he can’t allow one minor commenter (and quite obviously, some of his friends like this “Annie”) to disrupt his blog!

      • GilGamesh
        July 14, 2015, 12:38 pm

        echinococcus – so what you are saying is there is no Islamiphobia because all religions have been targeted ? Or does this only work when it comes to antisemitism?

      • echinococcus
        July 14, 2015, 3:25 pm

        Gilgamesh,

        No, as already written I am indicating that when it rains on all religions alike, there is no distinguishing “antisemites” or others from religious intolerance types. Having that moronic separate category for one type of intolerance and forgetting all others shows kind of intolerance by itself.

        Now, plain racism does camouflage sometimes as religious intolerance, because opposition to any religion is in itself not directed to a character acquired by birth. So the unfortunately-named Islamophobia is often directed at people of Middle Eastern origin –no matter if Moslem or Christian or even Jewish. And a birth-based racism against people of Jewish ancestry, i.e. antisemitism, is most often directed at Zionism.
        When the Zionists stop claiming that all Jews are by definition complicit in their crimes against humanity, we may see the exact proportions. Right now, “antisemitism” is lowest in the priority scale of all these group hatreds.

      • GilGamesh
        July 14, 2015, 10:43 pm

        echinococcus: How is rain analogous to murdering someone because of their religion. How is Islamaphobia not a separate category but antisemitism is? In the example I gave someone was killed and others maimed because they were in a Jewish Community Center. Christians mistaken for Jews were killed in Kansas. What you are really saying is that as long as Israel exists the killing of Jews for being Jews is not as important as the murders of others because of their race or religion. Why not just come out and say it if that is how you feel.

      • echinococcus
        July 15, 2015, 3:01 am

        Gilgamesh,
        Your reading comprehension seems to be nil. It’s like writing the Declaration of Independence and the reader asking you if you wrote the Book of the Dead.
        Add to that an eagerness to imitate the great masters of propaganda (you seem to be trying to emulate them in your inventing something in your head and prefacing it with the phrase “so you are saying that…”, only those guys were past masters at such dirty tricks, not some pitiable beginners); in front of such an unattractive specimen I suddenly understand how Humbaba was feeling.

    • Mooser
      July 16, 2015, 11:04 pm

      “In 1971, very few American Jews decided to trade in their American future for an Israeli future.”

      Yes, they were too depressed, defeated by the awful oppression of having to choose or shuttle back and forth between two countries.

      I bet every decent person felt sorry for us. What a burden, deciding between an American future and a custom-made Israeli Jewish future, or both! Has any people ever been so persecuted?

  6. Sibiriak
    July 10, 2015, 12:46 pm

    Michael Oren reached a different conclusion. Now he is misrepresenting history to try to convince a reader, or himself, of the wisdom of that choice.
    ——————————-

    Nevertheless, Oren’s trauma was real and is real and is evident in his belief system. “Trauma is never invented.”

    • Dutch
      July 10, 2015, 3:46 pm

      Fine. But now he has added to the trauma of millions of innocent people. There is no excuse for that.

    • Keith
      July 10, 2015, 4:41 pm

      SIBIRIAK- “Trauma is never invented.”

      No, it is discovered! I assume you are being sarcastic, always a risky technique on Mondoweiss.

    • Shingo
      July 10, 2015, 9:37 pm

      Oren’s trauma was real and is real and is evident in his belief system. “Trauma is never invented.”

      That’s debatable. Trauma can be passed on or through indoctrination. This was vividly illustrated in the documentary, “Defamation”, in which a group of Israeli Jewish girls (who’d never set foot outside Israel), were so indoctrinated to believe that the world outside of Israel is wall to wall anti Semites that when they came across a couple of old men in Poland who said something innocuous to them in Polish, they were convinced the men had called them Jewish pigs.

      • Sibiriak
        July 10, 2015, 10:40 pm

        Shingo: [Sibiriak:] Oren’s trauma was real and is real and is evident in his belief system. “Trauma is never invented.”

        That’s debatable.
        ————————-

        I agree. The irony was probably not detectable, but I was quoting Avigail Abarbanel: “Trauma is never invented. It’s always real and is evident in the belief system people have.”

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/traumatized-society-dangerous#comment-148294

    • Marnie
      July 14, 2015, 12:19 am

      @GilGamesh –
      I’m not playing tit for tat. Murder is wrong, period, no matter who the victims are. It’s just that some people believe their victimization (even if it was not theirs directly, mind you) trumps all . That’s pathetic. Years ago I was talking with someone about the genocide in Rwanda to which he replied “Yes, yes, it was very sad, but at least it wasn’t the Jews this time. Thank God it wasn’t the Jews.” He was a very sad fellow don’t you think?

      • GilGamesh
        July 14, 2015, 12:28 pm

        I’m not asking you to play tit for tat. You made a claim that Jews aren’t murdered by a gunman walking into a synagogue, I pointed out that Jews have indeed been murdered by a gunman walking into a place where Jews congregate. Was that shooting anti-Semitic?
        Of course murder is wrong period, that isn’t the discussion. The discussion was if antisemitism is real. Most on this board seem to feel it isn’t.
        Who said that they “believe their victimization” trumps all? And why aren’t members of a place of worship that was bomb victims? Are the members of the church in Charleston victims or only the people that were shot?
        Yes that fellow was sad, almost as sad as your using that story as an excuse to deny that others can be victims and that people who get murdered for being Jews are not murdered by because of antisemitism.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 1:38 pm

        “ears ago I was talking with someone about the genocide in Rwanda to which he replied “Yes, yes, it was very sad, but at least it wasn’t the Jews this time. Thank God it wasn’t the Jews.” He was a very sad fellow don’t you think?”

        Yeah, very sad. Also very not like anybody I’ve ever met, Jewish or non-Jewish. He’s your anecdote. He doesn’t represent anything.

      • Marnie
        July 14, 2015, 3:14 pm

        @GilGamesh – I spoke of a specific incident involving 9 African Americans recently gunned down in their church, which I believe you’re probably aware. But you have to make a point about a murder in a synagogue. Okay fine. Hasbarists have to insert themselves into every subject, cannot respect any point of view that isn’t about them. I made my point and most people understand it. Some agree. Some don’t. But everything isn’t about Jews. I don’t get it – if everyone is talking about Jews or zionism, it’s antisemitism, if nobody is talking about Jews or zionism, it’s antisemitism. It’s a lose-lose situation.

      • Froggy
        July 14, 2015, 5:08 pm

        Marnie : People like this are said to have a need to be the ‘bride at every wedding, and the corpse at every funeral’.

        Narcissists always have to be the centre of attention. They can’t bear simply being members of the human race, like the rest of us.

      • Marnie
        July 15, 2015, 6:09 am

        “Yeah, very sad. Also very not like anybody I’ve ever met, Jewish or non-Jewish. He’s your anecdote. He doesn’t represent anything.”

        He represents himself, who is a real dick-head and 100% Jewish (by the Y standard).

      • Marnie
        July 15, 2015, 7:32 am

        @ Hophme

        I said years ago I was talking with someone about the genocide in Rwanda to which he replied “Yes, yes, it was very sad, but at least it wasn’t the Jews this time. Thank God it wasn’t the Jews.” He was a very sad fellow don’t you think?

        You replied “Yeah, very sad. Also very not like anybody I’ve ever met, Jewish or non-Jewish. He’s your anecdote. He doesn’t represent anything.”

        What this man said sounds almost exactly like what just about every zionist says and you know it. It’s all over these pages.

        When I questioned him about what he said, he said quite tersely that the Jews had suffered enough and now we have our own state and can be safe.
        That was the purpose of the creation of the zionist state wasn’t it, so the Jews could be safe and free and happy and the non-Jews would be the ones to suffer this time and made to feel like the Jews felt, IN EUROPE.

      • hophmi
        July 15, 2015, 10:07 am

        “He represents himself, who is a real dick-head and 100% Jewish (by the Y standard).”

        So he’s Jewish. I’m not sure what your point is. 98.5% of America is not Jewish, and Americans did not push their leaders to stop the Rwandan genocide.

  7. ah
    July 10, 2015, 12:47 pm

    When I was a kid I remember being called many names by the “white kids”, Arab, camel jockey, sand n#%%er, dune coon, are a few that come to mind. Our home was always bombed with eggs, water sprinkler placed near open screened door, windows broken, and our puppy let loose. All stupid kid antics, because we were the only Arabs in the hood. I believe my parents understood it as that. Being an Arab, a Semite, these actions by others did not drive any of us towards Arab nationalism. We were living in America. I have a hard time relating to this anti- semitism that privileged Jews speak of. And I am so tired of Israel and her supporters constantly banging that drum. Go to Israel, go live there and take your nonsense with you. Phil you are so on the money, American Jews need to question why they don’t feel safe in the western world. I think it’s all an excuse to keep the Zionist project known as Isreal alive. Spare me the dangerous neighborhood bs. And leave me tax dollars alone. There are plenty of Jewish billionaires that can keep the project going. And the people of historic Palistine will be free. Jewish power is not setting a good example in the current century.

    • Elisabeth
      July 10, 2015, 5:38 pm

      “American Jews need to question why they don’t feel safe in the western world. I think it’s all an excuse to keep the Zionist project known as Isreal alive.”

      Right! And because most of them realize (unlike Oren) that these stories do not come over as very believable they have come up with the “anti-Semitic Europe” meme. And most Americans fall for it.

      • justicewillprevail
        July 10, 2015, 5:49 pm

        Zionism is so invested in anti-semitism as its raison d’être that it has no problem in illustrating their thesis by some bombings perpetrated by themselves to be blamed on anti-semitism. Kahane had the motive and the skills. It wouldn’t be the first time. Of course it could just be an amazing coincidence.

        As for the knuckles thing, it sound as preposterous as Oren’s whole attitude – self-aggrandising myth-making. It goes with the territory. Manufacturing myth is second nature to zionism, since it depends so heavily on it.

      • Shingo
        July 10, 2015, 9:42 pm

        And most Americans fall for it.

        Americans who by and large don’t even own a passport.

      • hophmi
        July 11, 2015, 6:05 pm

        Antisemitic Europe isn’t a meme. It is a reality you’d rather not confront. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/07/anti-semitism-france-hostage-hyper-cacher-kosher-market

      • Froggy
        July 11, 2015, 10:03 pm

        Britain had a Jewish Prime Minister back during the reign of Queen Victoria.

        France had a Jewish Prime Minister prior to WW2, the incomparable Léon Blum, who was three times PM of France, first time in 1936.

        Pierre Mendès France, also Jewish, became Prime Minister of France in 1954.

        Now, in case you were born yesterday or are totally ignorant, these men were in office at a time when in the US great universities like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton still had quotas restricting the number of Jews they would admit, housing was ‘restricted’ and in some places there were ‘no-Jews’ clauses as part of deeds, ‘gentile’ companies and law firms refused to hire Jews, and Jews were not admitted as guests in many club, restaurants, and hotels.

        In the last general election in the UK — this was way back in May 2015 — leader of the Labour Party was a Jew named Ed Miliband. Had Labour won the election, the UK would now have another Jewish PM.

        France was solidly in favour of a chap named Dominique Gaston André Strauss-Kahn, also Jewish. A former managing director of the IMF, DSK had wide backing, and he would have become president of France had he not been outed as being a complete degenerate.

        I’m still waiting to see a Jew elected to the US presidency.

        When Netanyahu invited himself to Paris back in January, this was French Jews’ response to his urging them to leave France for Israel.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nja48mIUIA

        That isn’t Hatikvah these Frenchmen are singing, as they stand there in the Paris Grande Synagogue .

      • Kris
        July 11, 2015, 8:57 pm

        @hophmi: “Antisemitic Europe isn’t a meme. It is a reality you’d rather not confront. link to vanityfair.com.”

        It’s a meme deliberately created and nurtured by Israel. Europe isn’t “antisemitic,” it’s increasingly anti-Israel. Your Vanity Fair article illustrates how some French Jews experienced the increases in popular protests against Israel during the Second Intifada and Israel’s 2014 murder spree in Gaza last summer as “antisemitism.”

        It is no surprise that since Israel constantly claims to act on behalf of all Jews, there will be ignorant people who will feel that all Jews represent Israel, and act accordingly, frightening and attacking Jews abroad who have nothing at all to do with Israel. For Israel, the fear and suffering of these innocent Jews is a plus.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 11, 2015, 9:04 pm

        the reason people were out on the street last summer is people were getting slaughtered in gaza. the reason there’s anger on the streets is people are being slaughtered in gaza. islamophobia is a worse crisis than racism against jews, both in the US and in europe. life sucks.

        part of this, whether you like to see it or not, is that sometimes people take that anger (about israel slaughtering palestinians) out on jews in the diaspora. that’s a bummer. but when people are getting slaughtered elsewhere and cops are killing black people, it’s just not on the top of my list just because you or others or our media keep reminding us of it.

        you’re worried about anti semitism? what about syria?

      • hophmi
        July 12, 2015, 7:31 am

        In France 51% of the hate crimes were directed at the Jewish population, which is 1%. Don’t tell me this Pallywood nonsense about how Islamophobia is a more serious problem than antisemitism in France. It is so far from the truth that it is malicious to keep repeating this like the false mantra that it is.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 10:51 am

        hops, there’s an industry behind reporting anti semitic attacks (see the movie defamation as an example). it doesn’t mean they are more prevalent. besides, as recent events in this country prove, if someone slaughters 3 muslims it’s not even called a hate crime.

      • Froggy
        July 12, 2015, 12:13 pm

        I’m French. I (now) live in France, I’m a citizen of France, and I’m writing this message from my home in France. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

        When he was in the 6th grade my son beat the [email protected] out of a kid because that kid had been picking on my son and beating up on the smaller kids for some months. This was on Long Island, and the bully was Israeli.

        I’m guessing that in your mind this ‘incident’ should have been reported as being anti-Semitic.

        In the film, Defamation, some Jewish woman in NYC overheard a cop who had been working at some large Jewish funeral remark to someone he was calling on his mobile phone, “I’m just finishing this jewish shit.” And that was reported as being an anti-Semitic incident.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkZ9TZ3kF1U

        What a bunch of pansies you zionistas are!

      • tree
        July 13, 2015, 3:24 am

        When Netanyahu invited himself to Paris back in January, this was French Jews’ response to his urging them to leave France for Israel.

        But Froggy, those people in the Grand Synagogue, even the kippa wearers, can’t be Jews! They all look white and Hophmi has assured us that all “active” French Jews are black or brown. And we all know how reliable hophmi’s information is. Oh, wait…

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 9:45 am

        Tree : “But Froggy, those people in the Grand Synagogue, even the kippa wearers, can’t be Jews! They all look white and Hophmi has assured us that all “active” French Jews are black or brown. And we all know how reliable hophmi’s information is. Oh, wait…”

        A Flatbush boy I used to know always used to say: ‘You can’t tell the players without a score card.’

        ;)

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2015, 3:34 pm

        Don’t know why Froggy is flat-out lying about antisemitism in France. Froggy will have to answer that question. Or she can not bother. Who cares, she’s wrong; here’s a long, long list of incidents, including a number of violent ones. Maybe the key is to “not look too Jewish”, eh, Froggy?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_21st-century_France#Selected_acts_of_antisemitism

        Here are the ones that made the international press.

        Ilan Halimi, from a Moroccan Jewish family, was tortured and murdered in 2006. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Halimi
        http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/28/a-horror-story-of-true-life-anti-semitism-in-france.html

        In 2012, Mohammed Merah murdered four people, including three children, at the Ozar HaTorah school in Toulouse. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-17426313

        And of course, in 2015, four were murdered at Hyper Cacher, a kosher market.

    • hophmi
      July 11, 2015, 9:11 am

      Maybe if six million, or around 40%, of your number died in a Holocaust (percentage wise that’s equivalent to about 150 million Arabs perishing) and your people had no state, rather than a couple dozen (with lots of oil billionaires who live off an American security umbrella), you’d feel a little differently, and you wouldn’t make stupid antisemitic remarks about Jewish billionaires and Jewish power. You should thank the Jewish community. It has been at the forefront of achieving the hate crimes legislation that exacts a price for the bigotry you faced.

      • justicewillprevail
        July 11, 2015, 9:56 am

        Would that be the Geneva conventions which were framed in order to ensure another Holocaust never happens – the same ones Israel flouts on a regular basis? The Holocaust is not a trump card to be played cheaply when you cannot address an argument – shame on you for even trying. Stupid remarks, eh?

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 12:46 pm

        “and your people”

        Right there Hophmi! Stop right there.
        Maybe “shingo” isn’t like us, and doesn’t have his own people, all united, with no internal strains, all pushing in the same direction, no sectarian strife. Not everybody has “your people” like we do, Hophila. You don’t want to throw their ethnic deficiency in their faces.
        But hey, you’re the “outreach” guy, so I assume you know what you are doing.

      • Keith
        July 11, 2015, 5:23 pm

        MOOSER- “But hey, you’re the “outreach” guy, so I assume you know what you are doing.”

        And what he appears to be doing is to piss-off Gentiles and create certain reactions which can then be (mis)characterized as anti-Semitism, the mother’s milk of Zionism.

      • Kris
        July 11, 2015, 9:18 pm

        @hophmi: “You should thank the Jewish community. It has been at the forefront of achieving the hate crimes legislation that exacts a price for the bigotry you faced. ”

        Thank the Jewish community, which right now is trying to get legislation passed that outlaws BDS, a non-violent means to exert pressure on the apartheid outlaw state, Israel? No, thanks.

        Nor do I thank “the Jewish community” for corrupting international law that was originally passed as a reaction to the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust.

        “In 2009, the former head of the international law department of Israel’s military establishment, Daniel Reisner, said that “International law progresses through violations. We invented the targeted assassination thesis and we had to push it. At first there were protrusions that made it hard to insert easily into the legal molds. Eight years later, it is in the center of the bounds of legitimacy.”
        http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-12/opinion/sns-201302121830–tms–wpfafftr–v-a20130212-20130212_1_war-crimes-international-law-cia-officers

        The article goes on to discuss the destructive effect Israel’s perversions of international law have had on the U.S.

      • Marnie
        July 11, 2015, 11:53 pm

        “You should thank the Jewish community. It has been at the forefront of achieving the hate crimes legislation that exacts a price for the bigotry you faced.”

        Thank the Jewish community; the greatest benefactor of such legislation, seriously? Individuals achieved this legislation by the way, not a community. Speaking of hate crimes, one of the funnier parts from the documentary “Defamation” is when the writer interviews some African Americans in Brooklyn(?) about crimes against Jews and these young men stated they would’nt rob Jews because, based on the fact that the victims are Jews, elevates a robbery to a hate crime, which carries automatic jail time.

      • hophmi
        July 12, 2015, 7:35 am

        I love, Marnie, how when it comes to Israel, an issue that has the support of American Jewish and non-Jewish, the Jewish community is blamed, and when it Congress to hate crimes, an issue that was strongly supported by Jewish communal organizations like the ADL, who raised money to make it a major campaign, lobbied for it, and helped work on the legislation, you tell me that it was the work of “individuals.”.

        Typical.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 11:56 am

        “And what he appears to be doing is to piss-off Gentiles and create certain reactions which can then be (mis)characterized as anti-Semitism, the mother’s milk of Zionism.”

        I feel so bad for Hophmi. See, when I was a kid, I was so handsome, so talented, so charming, and so smart that nobody would dare subject me to anti-Semitism, cause everybody knew it could only be motivated by sheer jealousy.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 1:09 pm

        “And what he appears to be doing is to piss-off Gentiles and create certain reactions which can then be (mis)characterized as anti-Semitism, the mother’s milk of Zionism.”

        Go easy on poor Hophmi. When your “best friends” let you down, and fail to produce Jews for Zionism at the wholesale rate, as the Zionists expected, it really left them with lots of problems.

        I mean look, instead of getting us in groups, reverently thankful for being saved, they have to wheedle each individual person to make Aliyah. That’s enough to discourage anybody.

  8. John Turnbull
    July 10, 2015, 1:50 pm

    And Kahane’s legacy is alive in Canada.

    http://www.jdl-canada.com/about-us/

  9. a blah chick
    July 10, 2015, 1:52 pm

    If Oren in his youth was anything like the Oren of today then I’m not surprised a snooty, lying, self-aggrandizing teenage pri** was always getting into fights.

  10. Shmuel
    July 10, 2015, 1:56 pm

    I’m willing to cut Oren some slack here. Meir Kahane in 1971 was controversial in Jewish communities for his methods, not the issues he focused on: primarily responding to violence against Jews (especially in changing inner-city neighbourhoods, following Jewish flight to the suburbs) and Soviet Jewry. At least in terms of his public persona, he was not the rabid racist of later years. His appearance at a synagogue would thus not have had all the “baggage” — and hence, significance in terms of the attack — that we imagine, in retrospect. It’s certainly a relevant detail, but I can understand that aspect of the incident not leaving an impression on young Michael.

    I wonder what former ambassador and recently-elected MK Michael Oren has to say about attacks on churches and mosques in Israel.

  11. Qualtrough
    July 10, 2015, 2:29 pm

    Brian Williams lost his job for embellishing the truth, but Oren will just sell more books.

  12. Jim Holstun
    July 10, 2015, 3:17 pm

    I’m sure Ambassador Oren also mentions and mourns Alex Odeh–blown up, probably, by some of Rabbi Kahane’s boys in Orange County, CA. Because, of course, Ambassador Oren is an honorable man.

    Without a conviction, probably best not to assume too much. The Zionist bombings in Egypt (Lavon affair) and the Baghdad synagogue bombings (attributed by Iraqi Jews, with some justification, to Zionists trying to encourage emigration) are too fresh in the memory. So is the Hannibal Directive, whereby Israel kills and then histrionically mourns its captured soldiers.

  13. Steve Grover
    July 10, 2015, 3:21 pm

    The most interesting thing is how none of the Mondoweiss stooges seem to have a problem with a Synagogue being bombed just because Kahane was scheduled to speak as Phil purports. But as Eljay sez, I’m just a Zio-Supremacist, so who cares what I say? And talknic, I’m still waiting.

    • eljay
      July 10, 2015, 3:36 pm

      || Steve Grover: The most interesting thing is how none of the Mondoweiss stooges seem to have a problem with a Synagogue being bombed just because Kahane was scheduled to speak as Phil purports. ||

      The bombing was an unjust and immoral act. I condemn it. The perpetrator/s should have been brought to justice and held accountable for his/her/their crime.

      || … But as Eljay sez, I’m just a Zio-Supremacist … ||

      It’s true – you are a Zio-supremacist. The fact that you care about a synagogue bombing doesn’t change that.

    • Donald
      July 10, 2015, 4:42 pm

      Why do you assume nobody has a problem bombing a synagogue? I condemn it, but that should be taken for granted.

      You are just desperate to have a talking point.

    • Kris
      July 10, 2015, 4:42 pm

      @Steve Grover: “The most interesting thing is how none of the Mondoweiss stooges seem to have a problem with a Synagogue being bombed just because Kahane was scheduled to speak as Phil purports.”

      The most interesting thing to me is that you say nonsensical things like this. I don’t see any evidence that anyone at mondoweiss has no problem with bombing synagogues, but I have seen day after day of evidence for years in the comments here that Zionist stooges like you “have no problem” when mosques and U.N. schools/facilities that are full of Palestinians are bombed into dust.

      Maybe English is your second language. This is what the article says: Kahane was scheduled to speak at a synagogue, the Kahane talk was cancelled, a bomb exploded at the synagogue without injuring anyone, and the person who placed the bomb was never identified. We learn also that Oren has a distorted memory of the bomb explosion which happened when he was 15 years old, and also may have distorted memories of “antisemitic” events he says were directed at him.

      No surprise here; we know from recent research that each time we recall a memory, the memory is changed. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/am-i-right/201307/your-memory-isnt-what-you-think-it-is

      Oren, who has spent his adult life as a professional liar defending ethnic cleansing and human rights abuses, of course would have memories that are distorted in ways that support his psychological need for a history of victimhood. If Oren couldn’t keep himself convinced that the evil he embraces and promotes is on behalf of the greater good of saving the Jews, he would suffer very intense, perhaps unendurable, psychological pain. I imagine the same is true for you.

      • Shingo
        July 10, 2015, 9:48 pm

        Great response Kris.

        Grover is a pathetic bottom feeder.

      • Kris
        July 11, 2015, 11:11 am

        Shingo, thank you.

      • GilGamesh
        July 13, 2015, 10:59 pm

        It not that he has no problem with it but he claims that because Kahane was speaking there that made the bombing of a synagogue a non trauma and not directed at Jews. Oren’s deeds have zero to do with the bombing. You and Mr. Weiss and many of your friends here do a good job of rationalizing evil yourselves.

    • Mooser
      July 10, 2015, 8:57 pm

      “The most interesting thing is how none of the Mondoweiss stooges seem to have a problem with a Synagogue being bombed just because Kahane was scheduled to speak”

      Why do you say that, “Grover”? Do you think Mondo should pay more attention to the intra-Jewish wrangles of sectarian Zionists?
      So, “Grover” what’s your theory, that some left-wing Zionist tried to scare Kahane off?

      • Steve Grover
        July 11, 2015, 1:47 pm

        No, I prefer to believe Oren.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 5:51 pm

        “No, I prefer to believe Oren.”

        Ah, so it was Oren who told you the commenters at Mondoweiss don’t care about synagogues being bombed! And you prefer to believe him. That’s your right.

      • Brewer
        July 12, 2015, 3:16 am

        ” I prefer to believe…….”
        Ain’t that the truth.

    • Mooser
      July 10, 2015, 9:03 pm

      “The most interesting thing is how none of the Mondoweiss stooges seem to have a problem with a Synagogue being bombed”

      Grover, ixnay nonay the ombingbay. Okay? (cough, cough, ingKay avidDay otelHay and many others)

  14. bryan
    July 10, 2015, 3:23 pm

    Phil – you got the better part of the bargain: you got Hendrix – he merely got Israel.

    • Steve Grover
      July 11, 2015, 1:30 pm

      If Hendrix didn’t unfortunately pass when he did, he would have played in Israel. Just like his good friends, Jeff Beck, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, Pete Townsend, Ronnie Wood, Keith Richards, and Buddy Guy.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 5:54 pm

        “If Hendrix didn’t unfortunately pass when he did, he would have played in Israel.”

        “Grover” is right! Many people do not know this, but when he died, Hendrix was working on an arrangement of “Hatikvah” he said would surpass his Woodstock “Star Spangled Banner” by several oceans of magna, dude.

      • Steve Grover
        July 11, 2015, 8:53 pm

        No Mooser,
        Hendrix was working on Yerushelayim Shel Zahav because he loved Naomi Shemer’s guitar playing.

      • RoHa
        July 11, 2015, 9:50 pm

        “If Hendrix didn’t unfortunately pass when he did, he would have played in Israel.”

        That’s a silly thing to say. If you don’t pass on the offer, of course you take it up. Do you happen to know why he rejected it?

      • Marnie
        July 12, 2015, 4:05 am

        Good friends Steve or just fellow musicians? You assume a lot.

      • Steve Grover
        July 12, 2015, 11:53 am

        Roha,
        The passing I was referring to was Jimi Henrix’s death in 1970. He was a great musician and I always think when I hear his music is how much great music we lost.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:00 pm

        “Good friends Steve or just fellow musicians? “

        “Good friends”? Maybe you don’t know this, Marnie, but I’ve heard that Hendrix wrote “Crosstown Traffic” (“Electric Ladyland” album) for “Grover”

      • Steve Grover
        July 12, 2015, 12:18 pm

        Yes Marnie,
        The musicians are guitar legends like Jimi Hendrix who came to fame simultaneously with him. They all highly respected Hendrix and they would hang out with Jimi and jam together. They were friends good friends. I’m just waiting for Eric Clapton to bring one of his Crossroads Guitar Festivals to Israel.

        Well, she’s walking through the clouds,
        With a circus mind that’s running wild,
        Butterflies and Zebras,
        And Moonbeams and fairy tales.
        That’s all she ever thinks about.
        Riding with the wind.

        http://youtu.be/03yPUlBE5OU

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 3:18 pm

        I warned “Grover” about drinking and posting, but he seems to be ignoring it.

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2015, 7:37 pm

        “The passing I was referring to was Jimi Henrix’s death -”

        Then why didn’t you say so ? “Die” is just a three letter word. Unambiguous and easy to spell.

      • oldgeezer
        July 13, 2015, 12:15 am

        zionists are always the best at alternate realities.

      • Marnie
        July 13, 2015, 3:11 am

        I can’t post to your post to me Steve but I heard the opposite. Everyone was jealous of Hendrix and Clapton supposedly said after hearing him play for the first time that it was over for him. It doesn’t seem like Jimi Hendrix had friends. Also, I can’t imagine Mr. Hendrix ever making it through Ben Gurion airport. In the words of oldgeezer – “zionists are always the best at alternate realities.”
        For you:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZkjo3mNmsA

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:30 am

        By the time Jimi Hendrix was presented as a “rock-star” (which of course, he certainly was) he had spent years as a backing guitarist on the “chitlin” and blues circuit. Spent some time backing James Brown. Besides his guitar, he was a confident showman and live performer, and yes, his act put those other guys in the shade.

      • Brewer
        July 15, 2015, 3:18 am

        Interesting sidelight.
        Oren’s missus was a Dead Groupie:
        http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/03/six-degrees-of-sally-oren/309230/

  15. Bornajoo
    July 10, 2015, 6:20 pm

    Thanks for exposing this Phil.
    I grew up in East London in the 60s/early 70s right in the middle of an orthodox Jewish community. Yes there were some incidents such as being called ‘jew bug’ and having your kippah (which I was forced to wear for a few years) knocked off your head once in a while.

    But we need to put this all into context and of its time and place. I can’t comment on that area of the USA where Oren grew up but over here in the UK those minor so-called anti semitic incidents I experienced were nowhere near as bad as the treatment dished out to darker skinned minorities such as black, Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani people (among others) at the same time. They had it much, much worse!

    Oren appears to be trying to grab all the victimhood exclusively for the Jews!

    But what’s new!

    • Elliot
      July 10, 2015, 9:20 pm

      I come from a similar background. I witnessed anti-Semitic attacks including on a synagogue during the 70s. There were some members of the community who moved to Israel but none to my knowledge did so because of the anti-Semitism. This includes my own family.
      I remember understanding through the grown-ups around me that the hooliganism directed at members of the Orthodox Jewish community had several dimensions aside from “they hate us.”
      This included socio-economic class (unlike American suburban Judaism, Orthodox communities often live in lower income areas) and general juvenile delinquency. We weren’t concerned about organized, adult anti-Semites but by the odd one more teenagers.
      We weren’t so great either. Within my community, I heard Pakistanis and others spoken about in derogatory terms. There was plenty of prejudice to go round.
      It sounds like 15 year old Oren had a strong response to this incident, jumped on board an ideology that made it better and let it shape his entire life. That’s sad.

    • Mooser
      July 10, 2015, 9:28 pm

      “But what’s new!”

      What’s so gobsmackingly stupid is that they want sole victimhood instead of solidarity. Worst possible choice.

    • Mooser
      July 11, 2015, 11:54 am

      ” I witnessed anti-Semitic attacks including on a synagogue during the 70s. “

      Yes, that was Congregation Beth El Nemo, as I remember.

  16. Scott
    July 10, 2015, 6:54 pm

    Fascinating catch Phil, and very significant. Another thread to pull is that Oren somewhat later was involved with the save Soviet Jewry movement, and Yossi Klein Halevy (author of a somewhat more interesting memoir) was one of his best friends, and also involved. That group, if memory serves, got in trouble for setting off bombs somewhere. The details are in Halevy’s memoir, and I don’t have it handy to look up.

  17. Nevada Ned
    July 10, 2015, 6:58 pm

    I grew up on northeastern New Jersey in the 1960’s, and lived in NYC (Manhattan) in the early 1970’s.

    I have to say that I never saw this allegedly pervasive anti-Semitism that Oren talks about.
    Maybe it was there, but I just didn’t see it. I had a lot of Jewish friends. Back in those days, the burning issues were the war in Vietnam, and the Afro-American struggle against racism.
    Late in the 1960’s, the new feminist movement arose.

    Israel was mostly NOT a big preoccupation, not even for some 1960’s radicals.

    You need to have been there to understand this.

    Rashid Khalidi has spoken about what a difficult time he and others had in the 1960’s, in trying to get a hearing for a Palestinian perspective. For example (these are my examples, not Khalidi’s examples):
    Chomsky’s book, The Fateful Triangle: Israel, the US, and the Palestinians, was published in 1983, in response to Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
    Edward Said’s books, Orientalism and The Question of Palestine, were published in the late 1970’s.
    Alexander Cockburn was nearly alone in criticizing Israel in the pages of the Village Voice, but Cckburn didn’t start at the Village Voice until 1973.

    In short, the Israeli “narrative” was pretty much unchallenged in the 1960’s and early 1970’s.
    Hard though it may be NOW to support the Palestinians, it was infinitely harder back then.

    What about the bombing of the New Jersey synagogue that Michael Oren twrites about? Since the crime was never solved, it’s anybody’s guess who dunnit and the significance. The JDL and similar organizations might have done it for all we know.
    After all, Irv Rubin, head of the Jewish Defense Organization (JDO) went to jail for planning to bomb Darryl Issa, a Congressman from California who is of Lebanese extraction.

  18. Froggy
    July 10, 2015, 7:40 pm

    “The only Jewish kid on the block, I rarely made it off the school bus without being ambushed by Jew-baiting bullies. Those fistfights left my knuckles lined with scars.”

    Oren’s account leaped out as bizarre when I read it; that wasn’t the country I grew up in.

    Oren’s little vignette might have been common in 1911, or 1921, but 1971… nah. The man is a liar.

    • hophmi
      July 11, 2015, 6:11 pm

      Nah, you’re just ignorant. I’ve heard many similar stories from people who grew up in neighborhoods like Canarsie during the same period of time.

      • Froggy
        July 11, 2015, 9:16 pm

        And you are a liar.

        What do you know of Canarsie? You’re from the Five Towns.

        There certainly was anti-Semitism, but it wasn’t kids beating up on each other. This anti-Semitism was confined to the grandparents and some of the parents of these 1971 hippie wannabee kids. Theirs were the last vestiges of the old Gentlemen’s Agreement style of anti-Semitism from the 1950s.

      • hophmi
        July 12, 2015, 8:58 am

        Froggy, I don’t know where you’re from, but the strife between Blacks and Jews in Canarsie in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s was not “the last vestiges” of Gentlemen’s Agreement antisemitism.

      • Froggy
        July 12, 2015, 11:37 am

        I was a New York girl. I’ve since emigrated from the US to my mother’s country, France.

        In 1971 the black kids beat up every white kid they could find. Do you really think that they didn’t shout epithets at the Irish and Italian kids and they beat them up?

        Since you lack reading comprehension, I’ll repeat what I wrote:

        “There certainly was anti-Semitism, but it wasn’t kids beating up on each other. This anti-Semitism was confined to the grandparents and some of the parents of these 1971 hippie wannabee kids. Theirs were the last vestiges of the old Gentlemen’s Agreement style of anti-Semitism from the 1950s.”

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:02 pm

        ” I’ve heard many similar stories from people who grew up in neighborhoods like Canarsie during the same period of time.”

        Well, if you are gewtting tired of the same old stories, Hophmi, I’ve got about a hundred more. Heck, if you like, I could keep you up all night with them!

        ” I don’t know where you’re from, but the strife between Blacks and Jews in Canarsie in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s was not “the last vestiges” of Gentlemen’s Agreement antisemitism.”

        No, it was just the opposite actually, and when it was over, we we had turned white! Better the contempt of our Catholic neighbors then an alliance with African-Americans!

      • oldgeezer
        July 13, 2015, 12:21 am

        @hophmi
        “I’ve heard many similar stories from people who grew up in neighborhoods like Canarsie during the same period of time. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/misrepresents-synagogue-changed/comment-page-1#comment-781164

        pfft… It probably speaks more to the supremacist mindset of the racist zionists that you buy into such stories at all. The tales require you to believe the individuals grew up in a neighbourhood where the intellect was so low that they tried to beat up the story teller day after day despite being valiantly fought off and beaten in the process.

        Victimhood is one of several zionist specialites. Racism is another. Oppression, theft, cruelty, absence of a conscience are but a few more. I’ve never seen a positive attribute in a zionist other than loyalty to a vile theology. Even self called liberal zionists throw millions under a bus for their own ends. Or threaten their own coreligionists with a nasty ending by bus. A vile repugnant lot. No different than ISIS or the kkk.

      • CigarGod
        July 13, 2015, 1:09 am

        The GeezerMatic.
        He slices, dices, chops and grinds.

      • yonah fredman
        July 13, 2015, 1:16 am

        The murder rate in New York City doubled in the 1960’s. More than doubled. The friction between blacks and whites was palpable. These long island ducks know nothing from canarsie or brownsville or williamsburg, but they can tell you the story of the perfidy of albert shanker and the teachers union of 68. julius lester did teshuva (a turn around) in reaction to his own venom. leroi jones, amiri baraka, made a career around race baiting.

        and zionism is a form of racialism of course, so i am a man in a glass house (glass booth?) throwing stones.

        i arrived in queens new york in 68 from chicago. queens jews tended more towards the jews who immigrated after the war rather than the pre war immigrant jews of the chicago neighborhood where i lived. support for anyone but a mainstream democrat (lbj, then humphrey, plus rfk, and mccarthy) was rare in chicago, but when i arrived in queens something like half the guys (it was a boys school) were supporting nixon rather than humphrey. a very different demographic. kahane lived in laurelton at the time, although he came from brooklyn. (he made yerida to queens, while i made aliya to queens.)

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:34 am

        “(it was a boys school)”

        One of those? Oh, Yonah, you poor SOB, I didn’t know. Sorry, pal, I didn’t know.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 12:37 pm

        “The murder rate in New York City doubled in the 1960’s. More than doubled.”

        Lead is very bad for people. Yup, lead. Ask Josh Marshall. And he’s a Zionist, too. Why did you want to stay around all that lead?

      • adele
        July 13, 2015, 12:57 pm

        Hophmi –

        if anti-semitism incidents amongst teenagers was as pervasive as you say in the 60’s/70’s in NYC & environs, reason and common sense dictate that there would then be traces of these events corroborated in newspaper articles and academic/organisational /governmental studies. I fail to see anyone bringing this hard evidence to the table….apart from Oren’s subjective tales from his childhood. The historical record in the Northeast doesn’t seem to back this up.

        Maybe there is a forgotten history that you can tap into and gather the evidence for, but just pointing to Canarsie without bringing data and not taking into account many other socio-economic factors will not pass peer review. It sucks, I know, but hey, look on the bright side, at least you aren’t stuck under the blockade in Gaza waiting for construction materials a year later to rebuild your house (that is, if you are lucky enough to have a job and money to buy the materials if Israel ever lets them in)

  19. Whizdom
    July 10, 2015, 8:52 pm

    Oren is just sad. If he should choose to commit revisionist crimes upon history regarding Israel, his adopted country, that’s his business. But I refuse to be passive while he revises my history. I understand why he got his ass kicked as a kid, and it wasn’t because of him going to church the wrong day of the week

  20. Qualtrough
    July 10, 2015, 11:35 pm

    I have it on good authority that Kahane and his group were hiding explosives in synagogues around the USA around that time. Therefore whoever bombed that location was fully within their right to do so. It’s the same in Gaza, where it’s OK to bomb mosques as long as you have intelligence suggesting there might be weapons cached there or a terrorist set foot in there at some time.

    /s

    • Steve Grover
      July 11, 2015, 1:56 pm

      Read Qualtrough’s comment Phil Weiss and Phil’s interocutor, Donald
      Hint Hint Nudge Nudge Say no more! Say no more!

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 5:44 pm

        “Read Qualtrough’s comment Phil Weiss and Phil’s interocutor, Donald “

        Aww, is everybody ganging up on you, “Grover”, singling you out? You feeling “uncomfortable”.

        Join me, “Grover”, in singing a Hymn which has comforted me much in times of stress.

        It’s called “Come, Ye Discomfited”.

    • hophmi
      July 11, 2015, 6:10 pm

      “I have it on good authority that Kahane and his group were hiding explosives in synagogues around the USA around that time. Therefore whoever bombed that location was fully within their right to do so. It’s the same in Gaza, where it’s OK to bomb mosques as long as you have intelligence suggesting there might be weapons cached there or a terrorist set foot in there at some time.”

      Another comment I seriously cannot believe was permitted here. For shame. Pure antisemitism right here.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 11, 2015, 7:22 pm

        Pure antisemitism right here.

        iow, (your suggesting?) when , in Gaza, israeli justifies” it’s OK to bomb mosques as long as you have intelligence suggesting there might be weapons cached there or a terrorist set foot in there at some time ” it is for “pure”racist reasons?

        or do you mean kahane wasn’t popular in jewish communities in the US or that his sympathizers (jdl)would never store bombs in synagogues? or that they were not responsible for bomb attacks? please explain.

      • echinococcus
        July 11, 2015, 7:58 pm

        Why does Hophmi have to debase himself begging to be published here, when the place he is supposed to be protesting is the government that, in the name of all Jews, commits crimes against humanity –specifically, this time, bombing mosques and schools and UN shelters under inacceptable pretexts and mooning the rest of the world.
        If he doesn’t like antisemitism he should get rid of his own heroes and stop whimpering at us.

      • Qualtrough
        July 12, 2015, 2:20 am

        Hopfmi – Not sure if you missed it or not, but the /s at the bottom of my reply means sarcasm. In other words, I was just trying to show how this kind of thing would sound if you substituted Mosque for Synagogue and Israeli terrorist for Muslim terrorist. As we all know in that case the Israelis are ALWAYS fully justified in blasting away and you have absolutely no problem with that, schools included. But apparently pointing out that double standard is anti-semitic. Easiest rule to remember is that no, repeat, no criticism of Israel or Zionism is permitted because it is ipso facto anti-semitic. Thanks for clarifying that once again. BTW, by that definition I am proudly anti-semitic and have no shame in stating that, none whatsoever.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:08 pm

        “Pure antisemitism right here.”

        That’s it! I’m digging out my old fly-tying kit! Where’s that beautiful split-bamaboo rod? The trout are rising to the bait again!

      • Marnie
        July 12, 2015, 12:08 pm

        @hophmi
        “Shorter Marnie: Because Jews didn’t suffer as much as African Americans, they aren’t allowed to talk about suffering.”

        Oh for God’s sake that’s all you do is talk about suffering! Past, present, real and imagined, all day long 24/7! You make me sick. You don’t have the market on suffering and injustices. The holocaust was huge, horrific and all the more awful because so much suffering and death could have been prevented. No one argues that or diminishes that. However, it ENDED. But it seems that you, Michael Oren, N’Yahoo and his entire government, see a holocaust in the making in every shadow and every slight, real or imagined, so that the honest and needed criticism of the zionist enterprise is turned into the next holocaust. Every show of empathy and compassion towards the Palestinian people is seen as antisemitic. Every gesture to help is antisemitic. A separate Palestinian state is antisemitic. N’Yahoo declared in Hebrew and English that the Palestinians would not have a state on his watch. He finally told his truth. Good. Are the Palestinian people supposed to languish and die, or fight for their lives and their rights? One state for all people would be the end of the Jewish state, but not the Jewish people. It would be the end of Jewish hegemony and the beginning of a democratic state for all. Not Jewish supremacy or Palestinian supremacy but equality for all. And that drives some people absolutely NUTS. The Jewish people have survived for thousands of years without a state and they’ll survive thousands of years more, and better, and their children will learn that Jewish lives and well-being does not trump the lives and well-being of others, but we are all children of God and all of our lives have value and meaning and are to be respected.

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2015, 7:43 pm

        Well said, Marnie.

      • oldgeezer
        July 13, 2015, 12:34 am

        @hophmi

        “Pure antisemitism right here.”

        Whine. whinge, whine, holocaust, antisemitism, holocaust for good measure.

        Kahane was a nasty murderous terrorist. The logic that was applied merely pointed out the racist zionist actions that are used year after year which could and should equally apply to kahane and his followers. It didn’t in anyway support the bombing of an institution.

        You had to resort to type as you have no valid logical response to someone suggesting Jewish institutions should be treated the same as Islamic institutions.

      • oldgeezer
        July 13, 2015, 12:39 am

        @Qualtrough
        “But apparently pointing out that double standard is anti-semitic. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/misrepresents-synagogue-changed/comment-page-1#comment-781169

        Well, yes. In fact DS and other zionists around here scream antisemitism anytime Jewish privilege is questioned or threatened. They have no interest in any form of equality as evidenced by their support for a racist state and, even more so their support for a state where Judaism reigns supreme.

        While the rest of the world evolves, zionists together with radical islamists and white supremacists wish to drag us back hundreds of years where they feel more comfortable in the days where racism and tribalism was supreme.

  21. tokyobk
    July 11, 2015, 5:55 am

    I think its fairly clear that by the 1970’s being Jewish in America was more an advantage than a disadvantage and most Jews of the time were living lives like Phils, not what Oren claims.

    But seriously, those who are not Jewish commenting on how the never noticed any anti-semitism (and therefore in conclusion, there was none) this is very much like men not noticing sexism and #alllivesmatter because whats all this droning on about racism.

    Secondly, I’m amazed at how when it comes to Jews here, context and mitigation become so important.

    Every act of prejudice and discrimination (and occupation and expulsion) has a context and in some way can be seen as rational in a historical context. So what.

    • tokyobk
      July 11, 2015, 5:59 am

      Not sure why my edit function does not work so I’ll amend here:

      Being a white, Jew, especially male, especially on the East Coast, by the 1970’s was a category more of privilege than disadvantage…

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:10 pm

        “Not sure why my edit function does not work”

        Maybe you aren’t getting all the “privileges” you should? Or think you should. You have to earn the right to edit!

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 2:08 pm

        it’s my understanding the edit function/option works for just 10 minutes after one has posted a comment.

    • Bornajoo
      July 11, 2015, 6:31 am

      “Secondly, I’m amazed at how when it comes to Jews here, context and mitigation become so important.

      Every act of prejudice and discrimination (and occupation and expulsion) has a context and in some way can be seen as rational in a historical context. So what.”

      Context and mitigation is important and not just for when writing about Jews. That wasn’t the point of pointing out the necessary context. If you are going to speak about the prejudices and discrimination that you may have had to endure at some point in your early life, or whenever, then it’s essential to put it into an overall context. You need to describe the overall situation at the time.

      If an Indian or Pakistani writer wrote about the prejudices and discrimination suffered in 60’s/70’s London without mentioning that other minority groups had suffered the same then I would consider that to be the same thing and mitigation and context would be just as important to point out. But we’re specifically discussing Jews here and that’s why it’s been pointed out here

      Oren would prefer everyone to believe that it was mainly the Jews who suffered from these kinds of prejudices and discrimination. He does that by not mentioning that other groups (which was definitely the case in London and I’m sure the same where he grew up) were suffering even greater discrimination than he did within his Jewish community. And as you correctly state “Being a white Jew, especially male, especially on the East Coast, by the 1970’s was a category more of privilege than disadvantage….”

      But the reader of Oren comes away thinking that it was ONLY the Jews that were singled out and had a rough time. That way you claim all the victimhood and then that leads neatly on to his unquestioning support and defense of Israel

      • tokyobk
        July 11, 2015, 6:42 am

        Bornajoo, I actually don’t disagree with anything you have written here.

        But, I stand by the observation that generally this comment section champions with anti-semitism the very kind of contextualisation, mitigation and rationalisation that would be spotted on a hair trigger were it aimed at reducing concern about Islamophibia or anti-Palestinian behaviour and attitudes.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2015, 12:01 pm

        “But, I stand by the observation that generally this comment section champions with anti-semitism the very kind of contextualisation, mitigation and rationalisation that would be spotted on a hair trigger were it aimed at reducing concern about Islamophibia or anti-Palestinian behaviour and attitudes.”

        Oh, shoot, I think he’s talking about me! I’m gone, before he starts searching my archive!

      • Keith
        July 11, 2015, 4:40 pm

        BORNAJOO- “If you are going to speak about the prejudices and discrimination that you may have had to endure at some point in your early life, or whenever, then it’s essential to put it into an overall context.”

        That is exactly correct. Any serious discussion about anti-Semitism will necessarily reference it RELATIVE to incidents of prejudice against other groups. If this is done, then anti-Semitism is a RELATIVELY minor phenomenon, whereas, kvetching about anti-Semitism is an obsession with many Jews which detracts from discussing more important issues. Apparently, this particular obsession is an important part of their Jewish identity, as well as a successful tactic of intimidation.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 11, 2015, 8:26 pm

        kvetching about anti-Semitism is an obsession

        i agree.

      • Froggy
        July 11, 2015, 10:09 pm

        Keith : “Apparently, this particular obsession is an important part of their Jewish identity, as well as a successful tactic of intimidation.”

        It also makes those Jews who obsess over anti-Semitism look as dumb as a sack of rocks.

      • Keith
        July 11, 2015, 5:42 pm

        TOKYOBK- “But, I stand by the observation that generally this comment section champions with anti-semitism the very kind of contextualisation, mitigation and rationalisation that would be spotted on a hair trigger were it aimed at reducing concern about Islamophibia or anti-Palestinian behaviour and attitudes.”

        Say what?

      • Steve Grover
        July 11, 2015, 9:16 pm

        Annie,
        Please don’t use Yiddish and simultaneously hate Israel.
        Your linguistics friend,
        Noam Chomsky

      • tokyobk
        July 11, 2015, 9:28 pm

        Really Keith and Annie —

        So when people contextualise Israeli oppression of Palestinians by citing the context of the Middle East, what do you call that?

        I think you call it Hasbara.

        Annie I find the use of kvetching and anti-Semitism to be despicable (and yes there is much exaggerated anti-semitism in Zionist rhetoric. I don’t expect much from Keith but from you I find that respectfully disappointing.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 1:52 am

        So when people contextualise Israeli oppression of Palestinians by citing the context of the Middle East, what do you call that?

        I think you call it Hasbara.

        i would not define hasbara as such:

        verb (used with object), contextualized, contextualizing.
        1.
        to put (a linguistic element, an action, etc.) in a context, especially one that is characteristic or appropriate, as for purposes of study.

        Annie I find the use of kvetching and anti-Semitism to be despicable (and yes there is much exaggerated anti-semitism in Zionist rhetoric. I don’t expect much from Keith but from you I find that respectfully disappointing.

        omg -color me shocked/not.

      • tokyobk
        July 11, 2015, 9:36 pm

        Keith — I wonder how many Jews you know or have talked to or what books you have read from within the Jewish tradition. My guess is very few and very few.

      • tokyobk
        July 11, 2015, 9:41 pm

        Mooser–

        Not you in specific. I have very little problem with anything you write and with most of what you seem (though cryptic moments) to believe.

        My only beef with you is when you used to (much less now thanks) purposely misread what I was clearly saying so that you could launch some silly zinger. I also find it annoying when you carry your jokes over threads and expect even authors above the byline to be in on your inside humour, as if that is the main purpose of the comment section.

        Otherwise, were good.

      • tree
        July 11, 2015, 11:47 pm

        TBK

        So when people contextualise Israeli oppression of Palestinians by citing the context of the Middle East, what do you call that?

        I call it “whataboutery”. What happens in other countries is not relevant to the situation in Palestine, or in the US. I’m a white woman. If I mention the ways in which I as a teenager was personally affected by sexism in the US, then mentioning that women in Gambia have their genitals mutilated, so I had it great in comparison (and that statement would actually be true), then that is “whataboutery”, or trying to change the subject to avoid dealing with the issue, by bringing up what happens outside of the context of the US.

        However, if my situation as a white female teenager is compared to the situation that blacks in general, and black women in particular faced at that time, it is a legitimate contextualization – comparing relative treatment in the same location, the USA. Contextualizing in that instance is relevant, particularly if I try to imply that my situation as a white female teenager was so much worse than a member of any other identity group in the US, especially since, despite its own traumas it was not.

        Oren, by relating his teenage traumas to his need to become a citizen and supporter of Israel is in fact doing just that. He implies that his situation as a Jewish boy was so bad that he had to seek citizenship elsewhere. No one here is saying that bigotry against Jews doesn’t exist in the US. They are simply saying that, comparatively speaking, it was not of sufficient harm to merit Oren’s implications, and was minor in comparison to the bigotry exacted on American blacks, among others.

        And here’s a flash for you in case you don’t know it, but white teenage boys in the US were and are picked on for a variety of reasons, including in some cases for being of Polish, or Italian, German or some other ethnicity as well as for just being different in some way. I believe there’s a certain resentment because Oren, due to his own bigotry, thinks that he had it so much worse than any other white simply because he was Jewish. He doesn’t have a clue that dealing with bullies and taunts and teasing doesn’t stop just because you happen to be Christian in the US.

        My relatives were shot in a town square for the crime of being Jewish. That makes me really sad and to relate that as a fact of history in no way minimises the crimes committed by Japan against Asian civilians or by the Nazis against others. Its not kvetching to know and relate and even in some senses take past oppression into ones identity.

        And my great grandmother died trying to feed her 4 children. Sad, but how does that relate to the discussion here? What you have just done is what you call “contextualizing” and I call “whataboutery”. Although a valid and moving observation of your family history if related on another thread, it has no relevance to the treatment of Jews compared to others in 1970’s New Jersey, which is the topic here. You don’t mind contextualizing in regards to what Jews do or think or feel, but don’t grant the same right to others. Its a particularist viewpoint that I doubt you even realize you are defending.

      • echinococcus
        July 12, 2015, 1:10 am

        That Grover guy is some piece of work. After having invented a horrible hybridized constructed language and social-engineered it successfully with the sole purpose of killing Yiddish, the nationalist riffraff suddenly rise to the defense of Yiddish?
        Typical Zionist nerve. As an old friend used to say, they not only kill mother and father, they also ask for clemency on the grounds that they are orphans.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:12 pm

        “Apparently, this particular obsession is an important part of their Jewish identity, as well as a successful tactic of intimidation.”

        And, I might mention, a victory for Tribal Unity! Here we have something which may unite all denominations and sects!

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:17 pm

        “My only beef with you is when you used to (much less now thanks) purposely misread what I was clearly saying so that you could launch some silly zinger. I also find it annoying when you carry your jokes over threads and expect even authors above the byline to be in on your inside humour, as if that is the main purpose of the comment section.”

        “Tokyobk” I am truly sorry, but I can’t please everyone. My letters, e-mails and phone calls are running about 67% positive (with a 5% margin-of-error) and I am trending very positively on various social media. I’ve got to stick with what works.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:19 pm

        “Please don’t use Yiddish and simultaneously hate Israel.”

        Steve, I told you: DON’T DRINK AND POST!!!!

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:21 pm

        “Keith — I wonder how many Jews you know or have talked to or what books you have read from within the Jewish tradition.”

        For God’s sake “Tokyobk” what do you want out of the man? Keith reads my comments, some of the time, when he feels like it. What more does he need?

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:38 pm

        “That Grover guy is some piece of work. “

        Gosh, I wish he wouldn’t post when he is drinking.

        (“Brush up you Yiddish
        Start learning it now!
        Brush up your Yiddish
        And they’ll all kow-tow
        And how!”)

      • echinococcus
        July 12, 2015, 4:27 pm

        Mooser,

        The Zionist don’t have to drink, ever. They’re stoned on Zionism, as in this particular case.

      • Keith
        July 12, 2015, 5:27 pm

        TOKYOBK- “Keith — I wonder how many Jews you know or have talked to or what books you have read from within the Jewish tradition.”

        I am not sure what you would consider “within the Jewish tradition,” however, I got a jump on many other folks by reading Portnoy’s Complaint when it came out, multiple times in fact, and that should count for something! From this solid foundation I added The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein and The Wandering Who by Gilad Atzmon, plus Mooser’s comments! And a few others. No flies on me, Ben!

        As for knowing Jews, you may have me there. I thought I did, but maybe they weren’t real Jews. Midwest Jews are a lot different from East Coast Ashkenazi power-seekers. In fact, their behavior was practically indistinguishable from non-Jews. There was no cult of victimhood nor anti-Gentile animus. You can imagine my shock when I first began commenting on Mondoweiss and it was difficult to comment without someone hurling charges of anti-Semitism. And it more-or-less continues. In view of all of the serious problems we are facing, anti-Semitism in the US (where you live) is minimal and should have a low priority and minimal discussion. However, perceived anti-Semitism is the mother’s milk of Zionism, hence, will always be wildly exaggerated. Additionally, it is a tool of intimidation for power-seeking Jews.

        TOKYOBK- “My guess is very few and very few.”

        All kidding aside, wrong and wrong. You know next to nothing about me, instead projecting onto me that which conforms with your biases. You seem to lack the ability to see beyond yourself.

      • Keith
        July 12, 2015, 5:56 pm

        TOKYOBK- “So when people contextualise Israeli oppression of Palestinians by citing the context of the Middle East, what do you call that?”

        If it was done honestly, it would be great. Unfortunately, it is almost always exceedingly dishonest, as you should be aware. When have Zionists ever provided context when discussing any of the Arab states of the Middle East? Related current conditions to the history of imperialism and the ongoing effects of imperial and Zionist interference? To point the finger at conditions in countries that the US/Israel screwed-up and blame them for the consequences of OUR actions is inherently dishonest. Surely you are aware that the empire gave birth to the Mujahideen, which begot Al Qaeda, which begot ISIS, which both the US and Israel covertly support? Just one of many examples of how the US and Israel have worked overtime to screw-up the entire Middle East for strategic reasons. The history of Western power-seeking is long and brutal. So, yes, put Israel’s actions in context, but do it honestly, if you can. And that includes Israel, once again, violating the terms of the Gaza ceasefire by refusing to lift the blockade.

        TOKYOBK- “I don’t expect much from Keith….”

        Jealousy is such an ugly emotion.

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2015, 7:41 pm

        “Please don’t use Yiddish and simultaneously hate Israel.”

        Because Israel is the only Yiddish-speaking country in the world.

        Oh, wait …

      • Steve Grover
        July 12, 2015, 9:37 pm

        @RoHa,
        We should be thankful to the Haredim for using Yiddish as their spoken language. This is true in Israel and the U.S. They do daven in Hebrew. One of my children has become a fluent Yiddish speaker. All 3 of my children are fluent in Hebrew. Unfortunately I am not fluent in Hebrew and Yiddish. I can read Hebrew and I can daven. I can understand Yiddish and Hebrew if spoken slowly. My synagogue is what inspired my child to learn Yiddish.

      • RoHa
        July 13, 2015, 8:11 am

        “We should be thankful to the Haredim for using Yiddish as their spoken language. ”

        Why?

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:39 am

        ” I got a jump on many other folks by reading Portnoy’s Complaint when it came out, multiple times in fact, and that should count for something! “

        There is such a thing as being over-educated, Keith. You should have stopped right there. And paying attention to my comments is, in this context, a big mistake. Portnoy got way more girls than I ever did.

      • echinococcus
        July 14, 2015, 10:54 am

        Grover,

        Still no response: it’s Zionism that deliberately is killing Yiddish, so what the hell are you doing cozying up to that abomination? The place of lovers of Yiddish may be with the Bund or NK

      • Steve Grover
        July 14, 2015, 2:44 pm

        RoHa asks Why?
        It’s because of your genuine concern about Yiddish and Hebrew
        @echinoworm,
        Do you prefer Yiddish to be the official language of Israel? There are plenty of places to learn Yiddish. My cousin studied Yiddish in her High School in Qiryat Tivon.

      • RoHa
        July 14, 2015, 7:50 pm

        You know, of course, that I have no concern whatsoever for Yiddish, Hebrew, or any other language, save that the speakers of the language follow, strictly, the grammatical rules of that language.

        So I ask again, why be grateful that the Haredim use Yiddish?

    • Donald
      July 11, 2015, 10:22 am

      I agree that I am not in a position to say that there was no antisemitism where I grew up–in fact I heard two examples of it, both nearly identical in claiming that Jews were obsessed with money. What I can say is that anti-black racism was expressed hundreds of times more often.

      I would assume that some ( or many?) of the people I was around probably believed some stereotypes about Jews. If I were Jewish growing up where I did maybe I’d have some stories, but as a white Christian listening to other white Christians talk when no blacks or Jews were around nearly all the bigotry I heard expressed was aimed in one direction.

      Incidentally, I was an Islamophobe then to the extent I gave the subject any thought. After the oil embargo I thought of Israel and the U.S. united against those dastardly Arabs, plus I had also read The Late Great Planet Earth, which was about the whole end of the world theology everyone I knew seemed to believe in, including me. I rooted for the Israelis in 1973 . Plus along with a lot of people I had read Corrie Ten Boom’s The Hiding Place, about a Christian family in Holland which hid Jews from the Nazis. So I saw Jews as being the good guys along with us. I think that would have been the common view where I was. But no doubt one could believe this stuff and still harbor some stereotypes about Jews.

      • tree
        July 11, 2015, 1:44 pm

        Donald,

        So I saw Jews as being the good guys along with us. I think that would have been the common view where I was. But no doubt one could believe this stuff and still harbor some stereotypes about Jews.

        You don’t seem to realize from your statement that you did in fact “harbor some stereotypes about Jews”. Its just that those stereotypes were positive. At this point in America the bigger problem is positive stereotypes about Jews rather than negative ones, including the stereotypes that many American Jews have about themselves. This is what leads people in the US who have no knowledge otherwise to believe that Israel is a “vibrant democracy” and all the rest of the phony crap purveyed about the country and what its government does, and what the majority of its Jewish citizens condone. There’s a pervasive sense that “Jews don’t do that,” when it comes to the reality of what most Jews in Israel have done, or condone, and continue to do and condone. And to expand a bit in reply to TBK’s comment, “context” is most often trotted out when Israel or Jewish Israelis exhibit racism, hatred or violence. It’s because of “thousands of missiles raining down”, or “suicide bombers” or the Holocaust, or anti-semitism. Lately I’ve heard much more “context” to explain away Jewish bigotry than any other group’s bigotry.

        Jews in general are no different from any one else. Some are very good, some are very bad, and the rest fall somewhere in between. Its thinking that an ethnic or religious group is all good or all bad that is the problem. And Jews are just as capable of exhibiting this kind of faulty thinking as any other group.

        Frankly, I think that’s part of Oren’s problem. He won’t confront his own prejudices.

        BTW, re-examining his description of his fist fights, I notice that he just mentions “Jew-baiting”, not being beaten up. So he was teased, or believed he was, and set out to beat up the kids who teased him, thus the scars on this knuckles and nowhere else. He obviously hit a lot of kids, or hit a few kids a lot. Great training for the IDF.

        He went to Israel in 1969. I suspect that had a more profound effect on his outlook than the explosion in his synagogue in 1971. He sounds like a bully-in-the-making who thinks of himself as a victim. Post 1967 Israel would have fit him to a tee. His mode seems to be to prevaricate and accuse people of Jew-hatred if they don’t agree with him that Israel is never at fault for anything. I can see him embracing Kahane in his youth.

        And I can see Kahane bombing a synagogue in order to drum up more followers and increase fear in the Jewish community. If it was anti-semitic in origin I would expect there to have been other similar bombings in the same time frame and general area. Since the bombing was never solved, we can’t know for sure what the motive was.

      • hophmi
        July 11, 2015, 6:08 pm

        “What I can say is that anti-black racism was expressed hundreds of times more often.”

        Without a doubt. But that does not mean that antisemitism did not exist, and it certainly doesn’t justify spinning this totally false narrative about Jews in the 1960’s not experiencing antisemitism.

      • eljay
        July 11, 2015, 9:17 pm

        || hophmi: But that does not mean that antisemitism did not exist … ||

        Anti-Semitism did and does exist, no question about it. Anti-homosexuality did and does exist, too. All sorts of hatreds did and do exist. None of them – not a single one of them – justifies:
        – the creation of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and/or supremacist state;
        – decades worth of past and on-going (war) crimes.

        But for some reason you Zio-supremacists seem to think that:
        – acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews justify acts of injustice and immorality committed by Jews; and
        – Jews are entitled to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 12:24 pm

        “But no doubt one could believe this stuff and still harbor some stereotypes about Jews.”

        Oh, that’s nothing. I still harbor some Jewish mono-types! They’re back in the closet, and one of these days I’ll transfer them to digital media.

      • Brewer
        July 12, 2015, 3:48 pm

        “in fact I heard two examples of it, both nearly identical in claiming that Jews were obsessed with money”

        My father’s favourite joke:
        “Two Scotsmen walking down the road, one spotted a half-crown in the gutter. The other one borrowed it to get his eyes tested.”

        Och Aye. I’m mostly Scottish. Gimme somebody’s land.

    • Giles
      July 12, 2015, 10:22 am

      “But seriously, those who are not Jewish commenting on how the never noticed any anti-semitism (and therefore in conclusion, there was none) this is very much like men not noticing sexism and #alllivesmatter because whats all this droning on about racism.”

      I am one of those you speak of and I have see plenty of racism in my life directed toward primarily black and brown people (with some aimed at Asians). And sexism as well.

      Yet have seen pretty much no anti-Semitism with the exception of a handful of rude marks (over 61 years) labeling someone who is engaging in unethical financial behavior as acting like a Jew.

      How is it we liberals can see and are quite aware of racism and sexism and classism yet not anti-Semitism? What is it about this “Oldest Hatred” that it cannot be seen by so many people?

  22. CigarGod
    July 11, 2015, 8:53 am

    “The only Jewish kid on the block…”

    That whole quote…sounds like it was ghost-written to create a legend of his early years as a Jewish Super Hero.
    Hollywood and a run for PM, here we come!

  23. tokyobk
    July 11, 2015, 10:01 pm

    Keith —

    When people compare the total deaths of Palestinians in the entire conflict to the deaths of Syrians in the last few years, when people say passing through a checkpoint is nothing compared to being hanged for being gay in Iran or thrown off of a building by ISIS, they are contextualising for the purpose of minimising.

    This is exactly the way you think reasonable people should do with claims of so-called antisemtisim (which you barely admit ever existed anywhere, even in Europe from the Middle Ages to the Reformation).

    My relatives were shot in a town square for the crime of being Jewish. That makes me really sad and to relate that as a fact of history in no way minimises the crimes committed by Japan against Asian civilians or by the Nazis against others. Its not kvetching to know and relate and even in some senses take past oppression into ones identity.

    Overcoming oppression is the tradition of African Americans and the sumud tradition of Palestinians. If you admire the group its “We Shall Overcome” and if you don’t as in the case of you and Annie, its kvetching.

    Zionism might have been the worst possible solution but the problem of antisemitism was real.

    • Sibiriak
      July 11, 2015, 10:18 pm

      tokyobk: Zionism might have been the worst possible solution but the problem of antisemitism was real.
      ———————

      The vast, overwhelming majority (99%?)of commenters here would agree with that statement.

      Seems like a straw man argument to suggest otherwise.

      • tokyobk
        July 12, 2015, 12:04 am

        Talk to Keith.

      • tokyobk
        July 12, 2015, 12:17 am

        I hope you are right. I think it is definitely the majority but I was talking to someone who argues that anti-semitism, in the larger context was not such a big deal.

    • tree
      July 12, 2015, 12:06 am

      Overcoming oppression is the tradition of African Americans and the sumud tradition of Palestinians. If you admire the group its “We Shall Overcome” and if you don’t as in the case of you and Annie, its kvetching.

      So are you trying to imply that Jews overcame oppression in the US? And complaining about anti-semitism is part of that “overcoming oppression”? Because otherwise your statement makes no sense, except to slam Annie and Keith with a straw man argument. I suspect that was your intent. You sound like you’re understudying to become the new hophmi.

      • tokyobk
        July 12, 2015, 12:10 am

        To a very small extent and nothing in comparison to African Americans.

        I am talking to Keith who consistently denies antisemitism, even in Europe, and who contextualises it in a way that is exactly how people who want to diminish Palestinian suffering do it.

        My point is that overcoming oppression does not have to be a negative identity trait as Keith implies in the case of Jews, a group he is clearly not sympathetic with.

        Annie is very deservedly slammed here as someone would be if they said feminists are always “bitching” about sexism etc…

        I disagree with just about everything Hopmi writes so no chance of that.

      • tokyobk
        July 12, 2015, 12:18 am

        No need for straw. Keith made a few statement, Annie agreed with one, and I replied to both.

      • tree
        July 12, 2015, 12:30 am

        No need for straw. Keith made a few statement, Annie agreed with one, and I replied to both.

        Replying is not the antithesis of using a straw man argument. In fact one can’t even make a straw man argument without replying. I’m sure you know that. Your current reply means nothing. You ignore your faulty comparison of “overcoming oppression” with complaining, and your false implication that American Jews had a similar experience to American blacks or Palestinians.

      • tree
        July 12, 2015, 1:05 am

        I am talking to Keith who consistently denies antisemitism, even in Europe, and who contextualises it in a way that is exactly how people who want to diminish Palestinian suffering do it.

        No, you are responding to Keith’s statement that :

        “Any serious discussion about anti-Semitism will necessarily reference it RELATIVE to incidents of prejudice against other groups. If this is done, then anti-Semitism is a RELATIVELY minor phenomenon”

        He’s not denying anti-semitism, he’s calling it a “RELATIVELY minor phenomenon”, similarly to how you have described it, BTW. That’s why you are making a straw man argument. You aren’t absorbing what is actually said or written.

        My point is that overcoming oppression does not have to be a negative identity trait as Keith implies in the case of Jews, a group he is clearly not sympathetic with.

        Again you are equating overcoming oppression with complaining. Complaining is most certainly NOT the same thing. I’m surprised that you keep insisting it is.

        Annie is very deservedly slammed here as someone would be if they said feminists are always “bitching” about sexism etc…

        Bullshit. You yourself admitted that “there is much exaggerated anti-semitism in Zionist rhetoric “- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/misrepresents-synagogue-changed/comment-page-1#comment-780930
        Another word for that would be “kvetching”. You object to the word, but admit the existence, and then claim that Annie is against overcoming oppression because she agrees with you (and Keith) about the exaggeration. Its a dishonest statement on your part. Faulty appeals to feminists don’t make your argument any less dishonest.

        I disagree with just about everything Hopmi writes so no chance of that.

        I don’t think that you have ever responded negatively to any of his comments here. I think this is the first time you have clearly stated that you disagree with him on anything. And you have rarely responded negatively to any of the other various Zionist bigots here. But you are consistent in replying to those you feel have made anti-semitic comments. You share that trait with Hophmi. You’re closer than you think. You’re still thinking in a particularist manner in regards to Jews and non-Jews. Its even apparent in your comment here to Bornajoo in comparison to your comment to Keith, who was agreeing with what Bornajoo said – gentle towards Bornajoo and confronting towards Keith. You may not notice it in yourself but I think a lot of other commenters here do.

      • CigarGod
        July 12, 2015, 12:23 pm

        You nail it, Tree.
        These characters are just selling their brand. If we would just admit that every difficulty in Jewish life, is a result of anti-semitism…they would finally reach the pot of nirvana gold at the end of their rainbow. What they wont admit…maybe even to themselves, is that the gold…is in reality…domination. These strong willed little boys and girls…whose personality quirks they tried to exercise upon others…and which were strongly rejected…simply found each other in Zionism.

      • Sibiriak
        July 12, 2015, 6:45 am

        tokyobk: My point is that overcoming oppression does not have to be a negative identity trait as Keith implies in the case of Jews, a group he is clearly not sympathetic with
        ———————

        Keith is not “sympathetic” with Jews as a group? Are you insinuating that he is an anti-Semite?

        If you are (what else does “not sympathetic to Jews as a group” mean?), then you are only proving his point.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 2:27 pm

        Annie I find the use of kvetching and anti-Semitism to be despicable (and yes there is much exaggerated anti-semitism in Zionist rhetoric. I don’t expect much from Keith but from you I find that respectfully disappointing. – Annie is very deservedly slammed here as someone would be if they said feminists are always “bitching” about sexism etc…

        i’d like to address this again because i think it requires more explanation. for one thing, kvetching and bitching don’t have the same connotation. one is generally regarded as sexist, the other not. it’s my understanding the definition of kvetching is:

        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kvetch

        to complain habitually : gripe

        i would not describe all discussion of anti semitism as griping. i responded to a statement, that in essence said the griping about anti semitism is an obsession. and for many it certainly is! (whereas serious discussion of the topic i would not consider griping, nor did i imply or state all discussion of anti semitism fell into that category)

        do you have any idea how many threads here turn into discussions about anti semitism? i am not saying it’s not ever appropriate, not worthy of discussion, not a valuable discussion. but from my perspective, lots of it is off topic, used as a distraction and is unworthy of even responding to.

        i have moderated thousands upon thousands of comment about anti semitism. that’s just a reality. but some people i consider to be top kvetchers and obsessive. i don’t find their contributions to the topic valuable. sorry!

        in fact i think we’ve got examples of this on the thread. so you can slam me all you want, you can also be blind to the reality some people find diverting a valuable thread and conversation to discussion of anti semitism — which happens a lot.

        i’m going to quote from an extremely valuable article tree linked to yesterday, which i would recommend eveyone read: http://www.gothamcenter.org/festival/2001/confpapers/podair.pdf

        A black administrator at Ocean Hill-Brownsville was more blunt: “We have more things to be concerned about than making anti-Semitism a priority.”

        sometimes, it’s just not my priority.

      • Bornajoo
        July 12, 2015, 5:20 pm

        “i’m going to quote from an extremely valuable article tree linked to yesterday, which i would recommend eveyone read: http://www.gothamcenter.org/festival/2001/confpapers/podair.pdf

        A black administrator at Ocean Hill-Brownsville was more blunt: “We have more things to be concerned about than making anti-Semitism a priority.”

        Ditto Annie.

        Many thanks for posting the article Tree!

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 4:03 pm

        “I’m going to quote from an extremely valuable article tree linked to yesterday,”

        I’m very glad I clicked that link. It cleared up a lot of things.

      • Keith
        July 12, 2015, 8:56 pm

        TOKYOBK- “My point is that overcoming oppression does not have to be a negative identity trait as Keith implies in the case of Jews….”

        Jews are victims overcoming oppression in the US right now? Given the objective circumstances of American Jews, you feel Jewish feelings of victimhood are justified? You feel that diverting thread after thread into discussions of anti-Semitism is warranted and appropriate? You HAVE morphed into Hophmi.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2015, 12:44 pm

        “sometimes, [antisemitism] is just not my priority.”

        It’s OK. You’re not Jewish. I wouldn’t expect it to be. That’s sort of the point. That’s why Jews don’t want to live in a world where no matter where they are, they have to worry about what people like you think. Even in America, Jews still have to worry about what others think. That’s why many Jews assimilate. It’s just far easier in an essentially Christian society. It’s really very much the same attitude white people have toward African-Americans; why do they keep harping on about that racism? I mean, it’s certainly not going to be a white person’s priority, right? Even Hillary Clinton couldn’t say that #BlackLivesMatter

        The problem is that you’ve decided to devote yourself to an issue which is important to most of the world’s Jews, and you’ve decided to offer your opinion on what Jews should think and how they should act, and as the moderator here, you’ve let in quite a number of comments which contain overtly antisemitic claims blaming Jews as a collective group for American policies people here disagree with, accusing them of collective bigotry, claiming they hold too much political and financial power, etc. You’ve decided to treat Jews in a way that you would never treat another minority group. It’s a sort of privilege you enjoy as a gentile American. But it’s a privilege that you haven’t begun to acknowledge.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 1:12 pm

        you’ve decided to offer your opinion on what Jews should think and how they should act

        and you’ve got this habit of making allegations without sourcing them.

        That’s why Jews don’t want to live in a world where no matter where they are, they have to worry about what people like you think.

        well, lucky for me you don’t get to speak for all jews, ever. suffice to say i get it that a person such as yourself doesn’t want to live in a world where no matter where they are, they choose to worry about what people like me think. but that’s about as far as it goes hops.

        and, regarding your allegation about us letting in anti semitic comments, if we didn’t do that ever it would mean trashing yonah’s ‘1/2 jew’ comments and bigoted remarks you and other people like yourself make.

        you might consider sourcing your allegations more clearly when you accuse someone of bigotry. ( and that is not in reference to accusations against me.) otherwise, you may find more of your comments not making it thru.

        my archives are available to everyone. by all means don’t be shy about quoting me.

      • CigarGod
        July 13, 2015, 1:52 pm

        Hophmi,
        This notice hereby removes any right you feel you may have, to speak on behalf of this Jew. I suspect there are other Jews you don’t have a waiver from. I proudly wear my Bukaran kippa whenever I want in my little redneck town…and the only comment Ive ever heard…is one from a cowboy to his friend: Who’s the %[email protected]# Muslim?

      • tree
        July 13, 2015, 2:40 pm

        …and the only comment Ive ever heard…is one from a cowboy to his friend: Who’s the %[email protected]# Muslim?

        Funny story.

        You’ve got to hand it to Hophmi for chutzpah, though. He doesn’t just tell Jews what they should think, he goes beyond and speaks for them, because he imagines he’s the Queen of some Jewish Borg Collective. Resistance is futile, CG.

        (To a lesser extent he does the same thing with gentiles. If he’s not telling them what they should think he’s telling them what they do think – which is of course mostly anti-semitic thoughts.

        Maybe we all should be worried. Heaven forbid someone we don’t know might try to tell us what to think. Oh, the humanity!)

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:16 pm

        “That’s why many Jews assimilate.”

        For G-d’s sake Hophmi, don’t blame me! I had no choice! If I knew that being born in America, I would be assimilated as an American citizen, I would have made other arrangements. I know that the US does not recognize the Jewish people in America, and like it or not, no matter what my religion requires, they would make me a full-fledged citizen as soon as I popped my head out, but I was just a kid, what could I do?

        Hophmi, you are so full of crap with this “assimilation”. Would you like to tell me of one single Jew, who being born in America, is refusing to “assimilate”? C’mon, find me one.
        No, Hophmi, the way you grow your hair, the hat you wear, whether you turn your smoke alarms off on Saturday is not “assimilation”, they are simply choices any American can make about the extent to which he wishes to follow his or her religious obligations, as he sees them.
        You can be Orthodox and glat Kosher, and dress out of the costume locker for “Fiddler”, you’re still assimilated.

    • Brewer
      July 12, 2015, 4:06 pm

      “Zionism might have been the worst possible solution but the problem of antisemitism was real.”

      No doubt but surely the point is that all of us have similar reference points.
      Highland Clearances.
      Hugenots.
      Christian persecutions.
      Slavery.
      Crusades.
      Holodomor.
      Colonialism.
      Nakba.
      …..and so on.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2015, 9:43 pm

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

        Sellar threw people out in person if they showed any reluctance to go, and burned down their crofts to make sure they never came back.[25] Evictions of 2,000 families in one day were not uncommon. Many starved and froze to death where their homes had once been. The Duchess of Sutherland, on seeing the starving tenants on her husband’s estate, remarked in a letter to a friend in England, “Scotch people are of happier constitution and do not fatten like the larger breed of animals.”

        ……..The methods used were sometimes harsh and brutal, even by the standards of the early 19th century.[11] Donald McLeod, a Sutherland crofter, wrote about the events he witnessed:

        The consternation and confusion were extreme. Little or no time was given for the removal of persons or property; the people striving to remove the sick and the helpless before the fire should reach them; next, struggling to save the most valuable of their effects. The cries of the women and children, the roaring of the affrighted cattle, hunted at the same time by the yelling dogs of the shepherds amid the smoke and fire, altogether presented a scene that completely baffles description — it required to be seen to be believed.

        A dense cloud of smoke enveloped the whole country by day, and even extended far out to sea. At night an awfully grand but terrific scene presented itself — all the houses in an extensive district in flames at once. I myself ascended a height about eleven o’clock in the evening, and counted two hundred and fifty blazing houses, many of the owners of which I personally knew, but whose present condition — whether in or out of the flames — I could not tell. The conflagration lasted six days, till the whole of the dwellings were reduced to ashes or smoking ruins. During one of these days a boat actually lost her way in the dense smoke as she approached the shore, but at night was enabled to reach a landing-place by the lurid light of the flames.[26]

      • just
        July 13, 2015, 12:46 am

        And on and on and on. Thanks, Brewer.

        Thanks for posting that, Annie.

        ;-(

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2015, 12:45 pm

        Scotland is soon to be the world’s newest country, is it not?

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 1:57 pm

        Hophmi, you need to get up to speed. Scotland has been a country for centuries. Its capital is Edinburgh.

        “The United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.”

        https://web.archive.org/web/20100416083521/http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page823

        Scotland has its own system of education, its own legal system, its own parliament, its own healthcare system, its own languages, three of them, and a different religious tradition from England.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland#cite_note-Country-12

        Something else, which is relevant to my posting this comment on MW. There is no history of anti-Semitism in Scotland.

        The Scottish nobles codified the rights of the Jews and the Jewish community back in 1320 when they drafted the The Declaration of Arbroath, the Scottish equivalent of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration was written by Bernard, Abbot of Arbroath, Chancellor to the King of Scotland, on behalf of the barons and community of the realm of Scotland, after which the document was delivered to Pope John XXII in Avignon.

        Included in this Medieval document is the following: “… cum non sit Pondus nec distinccio Judei et Greci, Scoti aut Anglici” [Translation: “….there is neither weighing nor distinction of Jew and Greek, Scotsman or Englishman….”]

        Scots are brave. At a time when, throughout the Christian world, it was thought to be right, just, and even holy, to slaughter Jews and steal their property, only the Scots were brave enough, and sufficiently far-seeing, to draft a declaration of nationhood which included the rights of Jews to dwell in peace in their country, and then deliver this declaration to the Pope, of all people.

        Throughout the centuries the Scots never violated the declaration made in 1320. Not once.

        Centuries later, in that dreich and unforgiving land, on the edge of Europe, the Scots produced an Enlightenment of their very own, one that had a profound influence on the Founding Fathers of the US.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enlightenment

        Pretty good for a country which as of 2010 numbered just over 5 million people.

        You are free to continue looking down on others, but know who it is you despise, because through your contempt, you disclose much about the defects of your own character.

        My father was a Scot, born, raised, and educated in Scotland.

      • tree
        July 13, 2015, 12:59 pm

        NO, hophmi. They voted no to independence. And every Scottish citizen was allowed to vote, and no one was ethnically cleansed before the vote either. If you are trying to compare it to Israel you’re off your rocker.

        http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

      • justicewillprevail
        July 13, 2015, 1:02 pm

        No, it isn’t. What is your point?

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 2:35 pm

        Scotland is soon to be the world’s newest country, is it not?

        hops, that’s got to be one of the stupidest, (and extremely insulting) things i have EVER read on this site.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2015, 3:48 pm

        “NO, hophmi. They voted no to independence.”

        And then made the SNP the third largest party in Parliament. I’d say it will happen sooner or later.

        “hops, that’s got to be one of the stupidest, (and extremely insulting) things i have EVER read on this site.”

        Why, exactly? I mean, why would Scotland need to secede (as a substantial part of the country wishes to do)? Why is sovereignty so important to them? For the same reason it’s important to Jews, and ultimately, to the Palestinians. Palestinians need a country of their own. It’s a dignity issue. As bad as it is that people hurl garbage at Israel, it would be much worse if Jews were still mostly a community of Europeans subject to the whims and pathologies of Europeans and their governments rather than a people with a state of their own.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 5:40 pm

        Why, exactly? I mean, why would Scotland need to secede (as a substantial part of the country wishes to do)?

        what country might you be referring to? according to you, the soon to be “world’s newest country” or the one that’s been around since the middle ages. it is a much much older country than israel, you know that don’t you? or are you living in some fantasy the country of israel existed between biblical times and 1948, before the states founding.

        talk about ‘new country!’

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 9:58 pm

        The Scots have a country of their own !

      • justicewillprevail
        July 13, 2015, 8:23 pm

        Annie was right- this is an infantile (and thus stupid) attempt to justify the zionist enterprise with a fallacious comparison. Nothing new there, but the clueless nature of the remark, another futile diversion, is droll as only hopper can be. Scotland isn’t a ‘new country’ as explained already, it has been around for about 1500 years. It is not defined by some vague and undefinable notion of ‘ethnicity’ or religion. It is not setting up camp in an already occupied country and throwing out the locals, or demanding that it must have special privileges and a ruthless army to further its aims. It is not gerrymandering the voters in order to have a segregationist state, based on some unicorn-like tale of ancient folklore. It is merely questioning whether the union which it entered into with england some 300 years ago is still in its best interests. It is a political argument, as England moves further right, Scotland places more faith in the social democratic model of Scandinavia and Germany. It is not remotely a ‘dignity’ issue, which is as specious an argument as i have heard, and as foolish as your attempt to mutilate any political event into some sort of perverse justification for zionism. They have nothing in common. Scotland would be insulted by the idea. Is there nothing you won’t try to exploit to prop up your ramshackle claims in the most harebrained and uninformed way?

      • gamal
        July 14, 2015, 2:14 pm

        Dear Annie,

        you may not be aware of the ideas underlying H’s, a nation its a dignity thing and the not wanting to live amongst the likes of you. As Kahane has come up how about his “Liquidation of the Exile” Chillul Hashem gambit.

        One Tzvi Fishman, soon no doubt to be wriggling in Mossers net, got in to a spot of bother by quoting I think from Kahanes “The Jewish Idea” here he defends himself against accusations of distorting Ezekiels words with extensive quotation from Kahane, who appears to be a raving lunatic or perhaps its only Tzvi, its very strange stuff.

        “There are those who accuse me of distorting the interpretation of Ezekiel’s prophecy in yesterday’s blog. So let’s see what the saintly Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory, wrote about the very same prophecy regarding the salvation of Israel from the Chilul Hashem of galut, and about the exaltedness of the State of Israel – even with all of its shortcomings.
        New Biography of the Great Lover of Israel

        What it comes down to is – either you are a part of the solution, by being in Israel and working to rebuild it along Torah ideals; or you are a part of the problem, by remaining in the exile and thereby prolonging its existence.”……..

        “It, therefore, says, “I had pity for My holy name which the house of Israel profaned among the nations, whither they came” (Ezek. 36:21). When the time for redemption arrives, G-d has pity on His holy people, profaned among the nations by Israel’s very presence in exile among them, living under them, subject to and dependent upon them. Even when the nations allow Israel to live in peace among them, Israel still depend on their goodness and tolerance, and that, too, is a Chilul Hashem. The fact that Israel live as a minority constantly dependent on the kindness of the nations, itself diminishes the glory of Israel, and of G-d, so to speak.”

        http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/3423#.VaVEZabtLxY

    • Keith
      July 12, 2015, 8:36 pm

      TOKYOBK- “…(which you barely admit ever existed anywhere, even in Europe from the Middle Ages to the Reformation).”

      Do you have a direct quote? You are not commenting upon any comment that I made on this thread, rather you are attacking a misrepresentation of some of my past comments. In addition to misrepresenting me, you are wildly overreacting. Apparently, I have assumed some sort mythical importance to you.

      In case you haven’t noticed, this particular thread does NOT involve a discussion of anti-Semitism “in Europe from the Middle Ages to the Reformation.” If we were, I would point out that incidents of anti-Semitism would need to be evaluated in context in regards to the general level of oppression. I hear that the Gentile peasants had some problems. Also, where class conflicts occur, simply blaming all violence against Jews on irrational Jew hatred is a cop-out. This is not the same thing as saying that anti-Semitism “barely…existed anywhere,” yet another dishonest misrepresentation of my critique of your almost exclusively Judeocentric focus.

      You seem to be offended by Israel Shahak, probably refusing to read him even though you claim he is an outsized influence on my thinking. A while back, Phil recommended “The Jewish Century” by Yuri Slezkine, who writes: “There was nothing particularly unusual about the social and economic position of the Jews in medieval and early modern Europe. Many agrarian and pastoral societies contained groups of permanent strangers who performed tasks that the natives were unable or unwilling to perform.” (p4) It is an interesting read which I recommend. I rather get the impression that you stick to stories of Jewish myth-history. Also, your inclusion in the membership of your Jewish academic club is an important part of your identity which, I suspect, would be jeopardized by too great a departure from group orthodoxy.

      One final comment to make a point. If you examine my comment history, you will find that I have called attention to the despicable US/Zionist support for the neo-Nazis in the Ukraine. I would think that if you are concerned about REAL anti-Semitism, you would be infinitely more concerned about imperial support for neo-Nazis and other Fascists than with my comments.

  24. tokyobk
    July 12, 2015, 12:50 am

    No comparison between blacks and Jews in American history. The suffering of African Americans could only be compared to Natives certainly not any European group.
    Keith has stated repeatedly that Jewish identity is warped because it focuses on oppression. I am pointing out that other groups too incorporate a history of oppression into their identity and it does nit have to be a unhealthy thing in general. I suggested that in groups he might be more sympathetic with this could be seen as an element of strength. More importantly I am pointing out that the kind of calls for context on this thread are decried when used to minimize the suffering of sympathetic victims.

    • tree
      July 12, 2015, 1:19 am

      More importantly I am pointing out that the kind of calls for context on this thread are decried when used to minimize the suffering of sympathetic victims.

      Context is not “whataboutery”. You are comparing the two as if they are the same. If I compare the suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis to the suffering of Israelis at the hands of Palestinians, that’s contextualizing. If I compare the suffering of Iraqis at the hands of the US, or the Syrians in the civil war, to the Palestinians, that’s diverting and “whataboutery”. And if I compare the suffering of American blacks to the sufferings of African blacks that is “whataboutery”. What happens in Syria is not the context for what happens in Palestine anymore than what happens in Africa is the context for what happens in the US. But comparing the sufferings of American Jews to the sufferings of American blacks and other minorities is legitimate contextualizing. The concept is not that hard to understand.

      con·text, noun

      the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.

    • Marnie
      July 12, 2015, 9:07 am

      “No comparison between blacks and Jews in American history. The suffering of African Americans could only be compared to Natives certainly not any European group. ”

      You’re right there’s no comparison between blacks and Jews in American history. The south had plenty of Jewish families BTW, some on big plantations with slaves too. There were Jews that fought with the Confederates to be able to continue that peculiar institution. So spare me. The suffering of African Americans can’t be compared to Native Americans either, not the same thing.

      • hophmi
        July 15, 2015, 10:20 am

        “The south had plenty of Jewish families BTW, some on big plantations with slaves too. There were Jews that fought with the Confederates to be able to continue that peculiar institution. ”

        No doubt. I don’t think anyone has ever denied that there were Jews in the Confederacy.

  25. Qualtrough
    July 12, 2015, 2:25 am

    In this thread I learned that it is inappropriate for non-Jews to use Yiddish when discussing Zionism. I am not sure why, but assume it must somehow be evidence of anti-semitism. Talk about chutzpah!

    • Mooser
      July 12, 2015, 1:20 pm

      “tell MW comment section Jew hobbyists “

      Oh my! Oh my-oh-my! “tell MW comment section Jew hobbyists”

      I am just going to pretend I didn’t see that.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 4:25 pm

        “When he or she does, if I am around and have time, I would say something.”

        Hardly the kind of dedication to the cause I expected from you, “tokyobk”. Don’t be lulled into lapsing your look-out! It can come from anywhere!

  26. tokyobk
    July 12, 2015, 3:45 am

    tree– do you think I need to tell Hophmi and other Zionists that I think Zionism is a moral disaster in order to have more leverage to tell MW comment section Jew hobbyists that I think they are hypocrites and double-standard bearers.

    I dont think so.

    Bornajoo has never come close to Keith in terms of denying the reality of anti-Semitism in Europe before the war, or minimising it so that it has no meaning. I have never seen bornajoo with Jew lists or rants about Jewish power. When he or she does, if I am around and have time, I would say something.

    That said, I don’t doubt I treat a person who identifies themselves as a woman or Chinese or Muslim on issues which relate to those groups differently than someone who identifies themselves and not a woman, Chinese or Muslim. I know from what he has written that bornajoo has many experiences, positive and negative, with Jews and Judaism and that he (I think he mentioned a kippah once so he) has actually studied Judaism. I assume from the way he writes that Keith with his Shahak and Jew lists is like the Islamophobe who knows a couple of weak hadith, has read ibn Ishak, knows the word “taqquia” and yet styles themselves an expert on Islam.

    PS I brought up my relatives and the ensatzgruppen to point out that one can indeed talk about past wrongs without kvetching or implying they are worse than other crimes. I am genuinely sorry about your great-great grandmother and I would be offended anyone who made a statement like “people who descended from people who starved to death are really hungry for sympathy” which I find the very rude formulation of Jews “kvetching” about antisemitism to be akin. At best rude. Especially if I styled myself a “human rights activist.”

    • tree
      July 12, 2015, 6:01 am

      tree– do you think I need to tell Hophmi and other Zionists that I think Zionism is a moral disaster in order to have more leverage to tell MW comment section Jew hobbyists that I think they are hypocrites and double-standard bearers.

      The topics on which you comment indicate your interest, and so far your interest here is mainly focused on calling negative attention to what you think is anti-semitism, not only in the comment section, but it was even your main thrust when you hosted Phil at your club.

      Personally I think a much bigger problem than American anti-semitism with respect to the situation in Israel/Palestine( which this website deals with) is bigoted attitudes amongst both Israeli Jews and many American Jews, including those in power positions, towards non-Jews in general and Palestinians in particular. I’ve stated as much here several times before. Prejudice is a problem for everyone, but Jews are not immune from exhibiting it just as well as other identity groups do. I think you are acting like the hypocrite you claim others are.

      My viewpoint is that if you sincerely disagree with hophmi here you should say so, not to give you cache when you criticize someone else, but because his attitude is much more toxic to the future well-being of the Palestinians, and indirectly to the future of Israeli Jews, than any one else’s attitude here, barring the few Zionist nutcases who post here irregularly. If you really care about that issue, why the silence when someone promotes the “moral disaster”, as you call it, of Zionism? You say you trust Bornajoo’s comments more because you can relate to his background. Don’t you see that you could be doing the same thing as he is, using your membership in the group to promote an awareness of the bigoted attitudes that are standing in the way of equality and justice because you would be more trusted. Rather than writing the bigotry off as “schtick”, as you have done, you could stand up for overcoming the oppression of Palestinians, perhaps change a few minds, and be part of the solution.

      I have never seen bornajoo with Jew lists or rants about Jewish power. When he or she does, if I am around and have time, I would say something.

      Again this just points out your bias. You are saying that you would say something if you thought Bornajoo wrote something anti-semitic, but you have never said a thing to hophmi about his style of bigotry. His wrong attitudes aren’t important enough to you to criticize, thus you diminish instances of bigotry on the part of Zionist Jews by your silence in comparison to your outspokenness here.

      I brought up my relatives and the ensatzgruppen to point out that one can indeed talk about past wrongs without kvetching or implying they are worse than other crimes.

      Granted, but often times this past IS implied to be worse than other crimes. Its done when other crimes and others suffering during WWII are diminished in order to place Jewish suffering above all else. And in this case its done by Oren when, as Bornajoo aptly described it:

      “Oren would prefer everyone to believe that it was mainly the Jews who suffered from these kinds of prejudices and discrimination. He does that by not mentioning that other groups (which was definitely the case in London and I’m sure the same where he grew up) were suffering even greater discrimination than he did within his Jewish community. And as you correctly state “Being a white Jew, especially male, especially on the East Coast, by the 1970’s was a category more of privilege than disadvantage….” “- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/misrepresents-synagogue-changed#comment-148693

      I am genuinely sorry about your great-great grandmother and I would be offended anyone who made a statement like “people who descended from people who starved to death are really hungry for sympathy” which I find the very rude formulation of Jews “kvetching” about antisemitism to be akin.

      Don’t be sorry for me. I never knew my great-grandmother and although I’m sure it affected my grandmother greatly, it is simply a family historical note to me and has no emotional trauma for me. So many people throughout history have had to deal with tragedy. I am exceedingly lucky and am well aware of it. If I constantly trumpeted how terrible I had it as a woman because of my great grandmother’s situation then I would deserve to be criticized for carping about it. It wouldn’t be rude. It would be the truth. I think even you acknowledge that the mainstream Jewish Zionist establishment cries “anti-semitism” over many things that are not, and implies that its a more important problem than other prejudices in the US, and certainly more important that the Israeli denial of Palestinian human rights. Its simply the truth that they over-complain, kvetch even, in order to excuse their own bigotry. Why is the truth rude, and even if it is, is that a valid reason to censor it?

      • Bornajoo
        July 12, 2015, 8:20 am

        @Tree

        Many, many thanks for your excellent comments and responses. I agree with everything you say and many thanks to Annie too.

        (I’m a “he” by the way)

        It’s true that Tokyobk was much more gentle in his response to me than he was to Kieth, even though Kieth was literally agreeing with everything I stated in my own previous comment.

        It might be useful if I explain my own position on these issues.

        Tokyobk, unfortunately I’ve had very few, if any, any good experiences with Judaism. When I look back at my early years I feel as though I was being brought up in a cult and my brothers and I were glad to escape from the clutches of our local rabbis. We were lucky enough to have other influences which led us to question the brainwashing. We eventually ended our relationship with religious Judaism by having to smash up the religious school and getting expelled. No good memories there and all I remember was that we were taught a load of gobbledygook (there were no dinosaurs, the earth was flat etc), that we were special people and we needed to stay away from others not like us (the goyim). In fact the only good memory was smashing up that school. Very therapeutic and cathartic

        But that hardly detracted from the all pervasive love of Israel and zionism which was never questioned at all. Just because the religious side of Judaism didn’t work for us, it didn’t make a dent in our feelings about israel. We still very much identified as Jews and israel was the miracle recreation of the ancient homeland yada yada etc. One of my brothers even volunteered to serve in the Israeli army.

        That all changed when I visited israel in my late teens and saw for myself how wrong everything was in so many ways (long before Hamas etc).

        I don’t really see the point in referring to myself as a Jew any more. I’m not religious. I don’t observe any Jewish holidays or dietary laws and when I do occasionally eat meat I eat pork too. But that doesn’t mean I hate Jews (as I’m frequently told by other Jews), I just don’t identify with this group any more. I just try and be a human being with universal values and have no need or desire to be part of a tribal group. I just happened to be born a Jew.

        So having been inside that group and now looking in from the outside I do try and see everything in its proper context. Being completely objective is extremely difficult if not impossible when you are still inside the group. It will always influence your thinking and it tends to make you react to objective statements as some kind of attack on the group. And Jews have a tendency to treat objective comments as anti semitic attacks which when properly analysed are anything but anti semitic. They also regularly claim they are always being singled out unfairly and Tokyobk is in my opinion guilty of doing that here.

        Proper context has to be applied to everything, as Tree has pointed out very thoroughly.

        MW is discussing Michael Oren here because he is claiming that the Jews in the USA had it really bad and this eventually led him to move to Israel. Oren is therefore using the argument that the Jews can only really be safe in Israel, even though it’s clear that he probably had it a lot better than other minority groups he grew up with at the same time. All of these victimhood, alleged anti semitic and whataboutery arguments are designed to justify and give a free pass to the state of Israel for the ongoing Nakba and crimes against humanity they commit on a daily basis.

        Eljay sums it up perfectly in his reply to Hophmi:

        Anti-Semitism did and does exist, no question about it. Anti-homosexuality did and does exist, too. All sorts of hatreds did and do exist. None of them – not a single one of them – justifies:
        – the creation of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and/or supremacist state;
        – decades worth of past and on-going (war) crimes.

        But for some reason you Zio-supremacists seem to think that:
        – acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews justify acts of injustice and immorality committed by Jews; and
        – Jews are entitled to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 3:34 pm

        “I don’t really see the point in referring to myself as a Jew any more.”

        Really? Well, I’ll be damned if I do them that favor! Nope, they’re stuck with me.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2015, 4:17 pm

        “In fact the only good memory was smashing up that school. Very therapeutic and cathartic”

        Whoa, my knee doth bend and my tongue gives blancmange!
        The most iconoclastic thing I ever did was play “Lover” and “Frankie and Johnny” on the synagogue’s Hammond organ.

      • tree
        July 13, 2015, 2:50 am

        Thanks for the kind words, Bornajoo. And thanks for telling a bit of your story.

        Sorry you had to go through all of that, but it seems like it helped you become a kind, intelligent, and moral human being. I grew up with a minimal non-Christian religion(Unitarianism), but I know a few people who had to go through similar circumstances in Christian denominations. I pretty early on decided that I didn’t believe in God, especially one who seemed so provincially human. And yet I’ve met Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. who do believe and are kind and moral human beings too. I’ve met other believers who are not so, of course, and I’ve met atheists who are utter a**holes as well those who are the opposite. It seems that religion is not the primary factor in whether a person grows up to be a moral and loving person. I wish I knew what the real deciding factor was. We need more of it.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 12:50 pm

        thank you bornajoo.

      • eljay
        July 13, 2015, 12:59 pm

        || Bornajoo @ July 12, 2015, 8:20 am ||

        Great post. Thanks for the insight.

    • Mooser
      July 12, 2015, 3:31 pm

      “Tokyobk” could I interest you in one of the handsome, custom-engraved, “Je Suis Generis” buttons I’m selling? Each one is approximately 4′ in diameter, and the words are reflective.

      Order two and get free shipping, and that’s a deal just for you!

      • bintbiba
        July 13, 2015, 3:35 am

        @ Tree .at July 13 , 2:50 am

        Multiple Dittos to every single word you said to Bornajoo ,
        and to …..

        ….”It seems that religion is not the primary factor in whether a person grows up to be a moral and loving person. I wish I knew what the real deciding factor was. We need more of it. “

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 11:22 am

        Mooser : “Je Suis Generis”

        Hilarious!

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:58 am

        Hilarious!”

        Merci! I had several gross of those made up during the Hebdo imbroglio, but you are the first person to evince any interest.

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 3:47 pm

        Je suis MOOSER !

        -LOL-

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:31 pm

        “Je suis MOOSER !”

        My Dad used to tell me: “Son”, he said “Before they made you, they broke the mold.”

        My Dad was very dissatisfied, always wishing to be something other than what he was. Probably because I got in trouble so much. Whenever he found out what I had done, he said: “Oh Lord, make me a drink! “

    • Mooser
      July 12, 2015, 4:27 pm

      ” do you think I need to tell Hophmi and other Zionists that I think Zionism is a moral disaster in order to have more leverage to tell MW comment section Jew hobbyists that I think they are hypocrites and double-standard bearers.
      I dont think so.”

      Butter. Side. Bread.

    • Keith
      July 13, 2015, 10:52 am

      TOKYOBK- “I assume from the way he writes that Keith with his Shahak and Jew lists….”

      Although I am flattered to be linked with Israel Shahak, I take exception to your “Jew lists” reference. I want to see a quote of my “Jew lists,” or an apology. You have made me the personification of everything you don’t like about Mondoweiss, including Phil identifying Jews of power. I might add that you have totally destroyed whatever claim to intellectual integrity you may have had with your libelous distortions of my views.

    • Keith
      July 13, 2015, 2:17 pm

      TOKYOBK- “Bornajoo has never come close to Keith in terms of denying the reality of anti-Semitism in Europe before the war….”

      Please provide a quote of me “denying the reality of anti-Semitism in Europe before the war.” Otherwise, I want everyone to know that you are a bald-faced liar.

  27. tokyobk
    July 12, 2015, 3:55 am

    Lastly, unless you want to continue, I actually find your original statement (which I did not read right away) about the distinguishing between, say, you and a woman suffering in a society where FGM is the norm and then you and a man in your own society, to be well phrased and imo correct.

    White Jews in the US in the 1970’s compared to other white Americans, especially otherEuropean immigrants, no great difference.

    My conversation with Keith has been way beyond that delimitation.

    • tree
      July 12, 2015, 6:10 am

      Lastly, unless you want to continue, I actually find your original statement (which I did not read right away) about the distinguishing between, say, you and a woman suffering in a society where FGM is the norm and then you and a man in your own society, to be well phrased and imo correct.

      Thank you for that. You said your piece, I’ve said mine. We can leave it at that if you wish. Goodnight, or I guess its good morning in your neck of the woods.

    • Mooser
      July 12, 2015, 12:43 pm

      “My conversation with Keith has been way beyond that delimitation.”

      That’s de’licious, that’s de’lightful! It’s de’lovely!

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 11:23 am

        It’s de’mented !

  28. MHughes976
    July 12, 2015, 1:52 pm

    I can see that an attack on an institution you regularly attend would be upsetting. It’s also true that there has never, then or later or now, been a rational or statistical basis for thinking that being Jewish in the Western world gives you worse individual chances in terms of personal security or career success or being held in general public respect and esteem than anyone, whether Jewish or not, would have in that same place.
    I remember Kahane as one whose rhetoric cut quite sharply through the sentimentality of (what we didn’t then call) liberal Zionism. He presented himself as a man of the streets who was identified with Jewish self-defence, which would imply that he had local enemies. If Oren’s synagogue had some Kahanist connections then the attentions of these people – a vulgar anti-Semitic rabble, perhaps – were called to it. Did Oren really think that these people represented the western world? Or that he should let them in an important sense win by his leaving for the Middle East?
    I would think that there’s something misleading or incomplete in his account of things. If he decided that only in Israel could he, as a Jewish person, have the kind of general respect and esteem that he deserved, that would be credible. But it would raise the question of whether he was and is still looking for respect and esteem in a form not really deserved by anyone.

    • hophmi
      July 13, 2015, 11:59 am

      “It’s also true that there has never, then or later or now, been a rational or statistical basis for thinking that being Jewish in the Western world gives you worse individual chances in terms of personal security or career success or being held in general public respect and esteem than anyone, whether Jewish or not, would have in that same place.”

      More than half of Europe’s Jewish population was murdered between 1939 and 1945, and that after hundreds of years of persecution and expulsions and exclusions from many sectors of society. How on Earth can you say that there has never been any rational or statistical basis for thinking that being Jewish in the Western world gives you worse individual chances in terms of personal security, career success, or being held in general public respect and esteem?

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 3:43 pm

        “More than half of Europe’s Jewish population was murdered between 1939 and 1945, and that after hundreds of years of persecution and expulsions and exclusions from many sectors of society.”

        So what? There can’t be anything wrong with the murders, thefts, expulsion, torture and general persecution since you support Israel doing the same thing to the Palestinians.

        So… exactly what are you kvetching about?

        “How on Earth can you say that there has never been any rational or statistical basis for thinking that being Jewish in the Western world gives you worse individual chances in terms of personal security, career success, or being held in general public respect and esteem?”

        So what are you doing in the US sucking up the good stuff?

        With all this manipulation, hasbara bullshit, and endless holocaustery moaning, a lot of people respect the Jews and the Jewish establishment far less than they once did.

        Problem is, Mikey, that after hearing ‘Never Again!’ all our lives, many of us believe it. That means that no people… anywhere should be tortured and murdered. (In case you don’t get it, that’s not a bad thing.)

        Truth is… people don’t think about the Jews. The Jews are here, they are as safe as any of us, and aside from that, nobody cares. (In case you don’t get it, it’s that way for all of us.)

        Je suis CHARLIE
        Je suis POLICIER
        Je suis JUIF
        Je suis MUSULMAN
        Nous sommes la FRANCE

      • MHughes976
        July 13, 2015, 5:43 pm

        I did specify a time frame. If you reckoned the life chances until 2015 of Mr..X, given that he lived in a Western country in 1971 – his chances of high income and status; his chances of escaping physical violence – you would state certain probabilities, assuming he will not change dwelling If you re-assess the same probabilities with the added information that Mr.X is Jewish, I think that the probabilities would grow better for Mr,X, given his probable levels of education, family background, residence in ‘good’ areas etc.: even if set against such risks as he may run from the forces of anti-Semitism, themselves to be set against the protection yielded to him by the strong opposition to anti-Semitism to be found in many quarters in the West during the relevant years. Is that mistaken?.
        I think that much the same probability projection would apply if we think of a Mr.X in 2015 considering his life chances until 2050.
        The first set of probabilities were what should have been taken as relevant by by the young Oren in71, the second set by someone considering relevant options now. At least if they were coldly rational.
        Anyone to whom personal security, especially avoidance of homicide, was of overwhelming concern would have looked in 1971 and would look now for alternatives to the United States. Israel would not be a bad bet, even if you were not Jewish (different in the lamentable territories!), but not the best.

      • lysias
        July 13, 2015, 5:50 pm

        Anyone to whom personal security, especially avoidance of homicide, was of overwhelming concern would have looked in 1971 and would look now for alternatives to the United States. Israel would not be a bad bet, even if you were not Jewish (different in the lamentable territories!), but not the best.

        Even when crime here in the U.S. was at its highest in recent years, in the 1970’s and 1980’s, the risk of being murdered for a member of the middle class — and especially the white middle class — was ridiculously small. And now it is much lower than it was then.

        The U.S. had too many murders. It still has too many murders (although far fewer than it used to have). But the victims of murder in this country are overwhelmingly poor and/or minority.

        The chances of being killed in an auto accident are far higher.

      • MHughes976
        July 13, 2015, 6:27 pm

        You’re right of couse, lysias (my predictive text keeps making you Lydia!)
        I did once look into automobile casualty rates, since I have a certain impatience with our speed limit system in the UK (my wife gets done, though I’m sure she’s no danger to anyone) and a certain attraction to your more libertarian approach, though it does seem to be true that your casualty rate is higher. Once again the gross figures could be broken down into something more informative.
        Still, it’s true that if all, very strictly all, we know of Mr. X is that he lived in the United States in 1971 but for some reason had the option to move elsewhere in the West or to Israel, always chose rationally and had an intense and overriding concern with avoiding death by homicide or on the roads we would conclude that he must have considered his option very seriously, though Israel would not have been on the top of the list.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 1:26 pm

        “The Jews are here, they are as safe as any of us”

        Again, I’ve already illustrated that this claim is complete nonsense, Froggy. Why you continue to repeat it, I have no idea.

  29. Qualtrough
    July 12, 2015, 2:33 pm

    Anyone playing a drinking game that requires you to down one whenever Hopfmi cries ‘Anti-Semitism” would be in serious trouble by the end of this thread!

    • Mooser
      July 12, 2015, 6:20 pm

      New Jersey seems like a dream to me now. It took me four days to hitchhike from Englewood.

  30. yonah fredman
    July 12, 2015, 3:12 pm

    My dead friend, the half Jew Peter, reported once of a conversation where the anti Jewish sentiments were being expressed fast and furious and he just nodded his head instead of injecting his Jewish father into the conversation. Maybe this was one of 500 conversations that he had experienced and so it was statistically insignificant, but he cherry picked this story and told it to me and it stayed in my mind.

    Because there was an atmosphere of brotherly love or laissez faire towards Jews in one region in 1971, does not mean that it was the same in all parts of the U.S. of A. From what I’ve read, I’d guess that anti Jewish sentiment in 1971 was worse in New Jersey and New York state than in Massachusetts, but I don’t really know. I’m sure the Gallup people polled the country to determine anti Jewish attitudes and if you wanted to do some real research instead of depending upon your own anecdotes, you might be able to speak from knowledge rather than from a random sample of one.

    I read that when Oren was a kid and would come home with complaints his father would show him photos of the death camps in Europe, so he was brought up a certain way with certain experiences with specific parents in a specific milieu and for someone to say: that wasn’t my experience, so he must be lying, is pretty stupid. Not every person has the same experience or the same parents and this pretense that something was wrong with Oren is really juvenile.

    Btw- I just reread the about section of this blog for the first time in a long time and this is part of the first paragraph:

    Mondoweiss grew inside the progressive Jewish community and has become a critical resource for the movement for justice for Palestinians. We continue to follow debates over the role of Israel and nationalism in Jewish American life while seeking to reflect a diverse community of views on issues of international importance. We recognize that Jewish voices are often prioritized in discussions of Israel and seek to challenge that dynamic by bringing a universalist focus to an issue that is commonly dominated by narrow points of view.

    Counting “jews”, that’s three Jewishes in the first paragraph. yes, antisemitism is going to be an issue when Jewishness is featured so prominently in the first paragraph of the about page. Today it is 70 years since the end of WWII, but Israel was established three years after WWII and any discussion that will focus on israel’s birth will of historical accuracy deal with antisemitism.

    • Annie Robbins
      July 12, 2015, 8:44 pm

      so he was brought up a certain way with certain experiences with specific parents in a specific milieu and for someone to say: that wasn’t my experience, so he must be lying, is pretty stupid.

      strawman

    • Brewer
      July 12, 2015, 11:03 pm

      “when Oren was a kid and would come home with complaints his father would show him photos of the death camps in Europe”

      There is so much wrong with this I don’t know where to begin.

      • CigarGod
        July 12, 2015, 11:16 pm

        Yeah, including: Too much like an over-the-top movie script.
        Funny, for a guy who had to go home and SuperGlue his knuckles back together every day…his face doesnt look like it has ever met a rough pillow. The Ninja-Jew must have won every swarming anti-semite fight…so, what scared him so bad he had to move to Israel?

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 2:00 pm

        “There is so much wrong with this I don’t know where to begin.”

        I’ve been here with Yonah a long time. What’s wrong started with “I read that….”. And that was enough for me.

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 9:42 pm

        Tonight began the Bastille Day celebrations in our commune, with moules frites, dancing, and fireworks off our village’s beach. Of course we went down as a family.

        To get to that beach we have to walk by the wall with the bullet holes where my uncles and other young villagers were shot during the occupation, walking over the spot where they stood, seeing the sky for the last time.

        Now as parents and as human beings we have a choice. We can spend our lives looking back over all the deaths, destruction, and loss, dwelling on all the terrible things other people did to us, or we can raise our children and get on with our lives, living them as well, as productively, and as happily as possible.

        If we could reach back in time and talk to the dead, I can’t imagine that they would want to see us tying ourselves up obsessing over, shootings, death camps and holocausts.

        If indeed Oren’s father did repeatedly show him photos of the concentration camp ovens — and I put it that way because I don’t trust anything Oren claims happened — then that father was abusive.

      • yonah fredman
        July 14, 2015, 1:46 am

        Froggy- On the scale of reactions to the Hitler catastrophe: on one end of the spectrum there is Madeline Albright’s parents, who crossed an ocean and baptised themselves and little Madeline and never told little Madeline where she came from. On the other end is the father who shows photos of the ovens to his son when his son comes home with scraped knuckles.

        I think the timing of the father’s sharing of these photos with his son is the problem. I think the fact of the father sharing these photos with his son is in fact essential (not necessarily today, but in 1963, yes, it is not history, it’s yesterday’s story, the headline of Jewish identity, the dragon’s breath burnt the eyebrows on half of the men in the shul and yes, it’s necessary in 1963 to share that story with your son.) how to approach the subject. do you leave such a book just lying around or actually talk to your son and try to learn some lessons, i don’t think it’s an easy subject and to utilize these photos at the wrong moment and give the wrong message is indeed a form of abuse.
        how jewish fathers should raise their jewish sons in 2015, i don’t know, ich veiss nicht, i don’t know that there is such an immediate need. but how would you describe the 20th century to your son? tell him about abbie hoffman and bob dylan? tell him of the perfidy of menachem begin and golda meir? but you’ll skip the death camps and the arbeit macht frei? no. if you’re a jewish father teaching your son what it is to be a jew, you will have to figure out how to teach him about the death camps and the arbeit macht frei. it’s a tricky duty.

      • Froggy
        July 14, 2015, 3:54 pm

        Yonah Fredman : “but you’ll skip the death camps and the arbeit macht frei?”

        My grandfather, a Catholic Breton, was shipped off to Neuengamme, and from there to Dachau.

        Do you tell your sons that anyone else but Jews were murdered by the Axis? Do you tell them about the Roma and the Sinti, the Russians, Poles, the Greeks, and all the others who were murdered? Do you tell them about Lidice, Oradour-sur-Glane, Vassieux-en-Vercours, the Siege of Leningrad, or the Rape of Nanking?

        Or is it always all about you?

        My two oldest sons went to school in the US (where they were born and where we lived at the time). Their courses covered absolutely nothing about WW2 other than the Jewish holocaust. They were required to read Anne Frank three times, which always included ‘role playing’ — questions and acting ‘how did Pieter feel? How did Anne feel?’ — acting in parts, making mock ups of railroad cars, them pretending they were Jews being transported to Auschwitz or Bergen-Belsen. According to the teacher, there was no time to cover anything else. (And this was in the Gifted and Talented programme.)

        Somewhere close to 76 million people were killed in WW2, and their school’s coursework covered none of the rest of it.

        Thank God we’re in France now, where the kids are educated, instead of being indoctrinated. (And yes, the schools here cover the Jewish holocaust, as well as the rest of the history.)

      • Bornajoo
        July 14, 2015, 5:13 pm

        “Somewhere close to 76 million people were killed in WW2, and their school’s coursework covered none of the rest of it.”

        Great comment Froggy. This is a really important point. Thank you

        And how many times do we hear or read something like ‘there was terrible anti semitism in Europe which culminated in the Holocaust’? As though it was more than the Nazis and their collaborators who were responsible for the holocaust, as though somehow all Europeans were responsible?

        When Oren’s father showed him the photos down in the basement did he explain that the perpetrators were just one group of people with an evil and sick ideology who were completely defeated. Did he explain that another 2 million non Jews died in those camps. Did he explain that tens of millions of others died in that war and not just 6 million Jews?

        My own nieces, nephew and cousins are not aware of these facts until this very day. But they know everything, absolutely everything about the Holocaust

      • Froggy
        July 14, 2015, 7:40 pm

        Bornajoo : “And how many times do we hear or read something like ‘there was terrible anti semitism in Europe which culminated in the Holocaust’? As though it was more than the Nazis and their collaborators who were responsible for the holocaust, as though somehow all Europeans were responsible?”

        That’s a given. Kids, my kids and other kids, told me that the Europeans killed the Jews. The occupation, and all the realities and conditions that came with being occupied by the Nazis, was never mentioned.

        Furthermore, I discovered that not one adult or older kid I asked knew about the Kindertransport, the countries that to the best of their abilities took in Jews, or anything else else people did to assist the Jews.

        Somehow modern Jews have convinced themselves that people living under these conditions —

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/28/a2970128.shtml

        — could have saved the Jews, when so many couldn’t save themselves.

      • RoHa
        July 14, 2015, 8:43 pm

        “Somewhere close to 76 million people were killed in WW2, and their school’s coursework covered none of the rest of it. ”

        Not even the fact that one or two Americans were killed? Only a fraction of the 70 to 80 million, but worth a mention in the US, I would think.

        Incidentally, you mention the Rape of Nanking. If Yonah wants to revel in the horrors of WW2, he should learn not only about China, but about the massacres, the slavery, and the starvation that Japanese occupation brought to SE Asia as well. And let’s not forget the Rape of Manila.

        But that would require him to think about people who weren’t even half-Jews.

    • just
      July 13, 2015, 12:32 am

      “My dead friend, the half Jew Peter, …”

      I’m sorry for your loss, yonah.

      Is it typical to characterize folks by the percentage of their Jewishness? If it was his mother rather than his father that was Jewish, would that make him a whole Jew or still only a “half Jew”, or do both parents have to be Jewish in order to be a “whole Jew”?

      Perhaps you’ll find it a silly question~ sorry in advance. Did your friend self- describe himself as such?

      • CigarGod
        July 13, 2015, 1:05 am

        Elegant.
        I have a feeling you could say all that with just a look.

      • yonah fredman
        July 13, 2015, 1:40 am

        just- the phrase “half Jew” is designed to provoke questions. (I don’t use it to be provocative. I use it because it is part of my vocabulary and categorization tendencies.) I called peter a half jew to his face and he did not deny it. he had an “interesting” relationship to his father and so that contributed to a certain alienation from his jewish roots, but he warmly recalled his bubby (grandma) making him koogel.

        i grew up orthodox and these people are not considered jewish under the rules that i was brought up on. I met a half jew by the kotel back in 77 or 79, the wall, the wailing wall in occupied al quds, if you will, and his yearning for things jewish was quite apparent, but at the time i was still under the thrall of torah definitions and he wasn’t jewish to me and that was that. i’ve met a son of a jewish man and a nonjewish woman who converted to judaism and became ultra orthodox. and to the orthodox someone half jewish is not jewish.

        i’ve met kids of a jewish woman whose father is not jewish and they really don’t consider themselves jewish. would i call them half jews? i might. i’d call them half jews, but the right half and with peter i called him a half jew, but the wrong half. when his daughter heard me referring to her as a quarter jew she was quite offended. when i saw his daughter crossing herself when she passed a church i was taken aback.

        i’m sorry if the term half jew offends you. it’s a term that i use, and until a half jew tells me how to rephrase myself in acceptable politically correct format i will use the phrase.

      • Froggy
        July 13, 2015, 10:49 am

        YF : “i’m sorry if the term half jew offends you. it’s a term that i use, and until a half jew tells me how to rephrase myself in acceptable politically correct format i will use the phrase.”

        Like people who use the K-word. It’s a word people choose to use, admitting that it’s not a ‘politically correct’ word.

        It’s not about being insulting. It’s about minimising individuals. It’s about ignoring all the characteristics that make a person who he or she is, and reducing that person to how well they fit into a very narrow slot.

        Besides that, there are no racially pure groups — not even Jews — so a term like ‘half-Jew’ is just silly.

      • Brewer
        July 13, 2015, 3:50 am

        The fact that “half-Jew” is in your lexicon tells me that you are someone who places some importance on ethnicity. Where I come from this is known as racism. Most of us take people as people.
        I am beginning to understand why some people could react negatively to Jews if Jewish relationship to their cultural and ethnic identity overrides their humanistic considerations.
        If we could remove this, what would Palestine look like today?

      • justicewillprevail
        July 13, 2015, 6:22 am

        This is quite unbelievable. I only know of two regimes in the world which thought you could classify people according to percentages of their blood or dna into racial categories. You know which those were, right? You think you can inherit cultural characteristics? What century are you living in?

      • just
        July 13, 2015, 10:58 am

        Thanks for your reply, yonah.

        Honestly, I was hoping that it was your friend who chose to self- describe himself that way to you.

        If some individual Jews can determine or care about the percentage, or the right half/wrong half of another’s Jewishness, there’s little wonder that some elect- out, don’t you think? It implies that percentages of purity and belonging to the group matter more than the individual human and his or her behaviors/actions.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 12:04 pm

        “YF : “i’m sorry if the term half jew offends you. it’s a term that i use, and until a half jew tells me how to rephrase myself in acceptable politically correct format i will use the phrase.”

        Shorter Yonah: ‘I’m on the internet, so nobody can crack me one!

        I’m sorry Yonah, but you wouldn’t have the guts to call anybody a “half-Jew” in public. Who the hell are you trying to kid?

        Yonah, what did they do to you at that “all-boys school”? You didn’t come out right.

        Oh, excuse me Yonah, I re-read your comment. It was a woman you had the amazing guts and honesty to call a “quarter Jew”. Now I see. Good Lord, Yonah, what did they do to you?

      • Kris
        July 13, 2015, 12:11 pm

        @yf: “the phrase “half Jew” is designed to provoke questions. (I don’t use it to be provocative. I use it because it is part of my vocabulary and categorization tendencie ”

        That’s ok, yonah, I understand completely. Even the U.S. government has used systems like yours, as in ” Census Takers Rules Regarding Indians 1850-1950.” http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST/2001-06/0993349615

        From the Census Takers Rules: ”

        4. Whether white, black, mulatto. quadroon, octoroon, Chinese, Japanese, or Indian.-Write white, black, mulatto, quadroon, octoroon, Chinese, Japanese, or Indian, according to the color or race of the person enumerated. Be particularly careful to distinguish between blacks, mulattos, quadroons, and octoroons. The word “black” should be used to describe those persons who have three-fourths or more black blood; “mulatto,” those persons who have from three-eighths to five-eighths black blood; “quadroon,” those persons who have one-fourth black blood; and “octoroon,” those persons who have one-eighth or any trace of black blood.

        And the Nazis, of course, as well as the South Africans had racial classification systems; you can google for more info.

        In your own system, “half Jew Peter” would properly be classified as a mulatto Jew, right?

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 12:39 pm

        the phrase “half Jew” is designed to provoke ….. (I don’t use it to be provocative….)

        uh huh. yonah, do you ever read over what you write before you hit “post comment”?

        (I don’t use it to be provocative. I use it because it is part of my vocabulary)

        you’re 1/2 a man yonah, i don’t say that to be provocative, i say it because it’s part of my vocabulary/snark.

      • CigarGod
        July 13, 2015, 1:48 pm

        Stop it, Annie!
        One of these days I’m going to get hurt when I fall down and roll around.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 1:52 pm

        ;) i seriously think sometimes these guys don’t even hear themselves. check out this one: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/foxman-goodbye-america/comment-page-1#comment-781316

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 12:19 pm

        BTW, let Yonah’s posts on “half-Jews” and “quarter-Jews” should be a lesson to all of us: The Moderators at Mondo are merciless!
        My prayer is that they never do to me what they do to Yonah! No mercy, no compassion at all, they just put the stuff right through!
        I used to feel comforted by the yellow “You post is in Moderation” tag.
        “All-right” I told myself, Annie is looking out for me! She won’t let me make a fool of myself!”
        Not no more! These people are cruel!

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 2:15 pm

        Annie, I checked the comment you linked, it is ridiculous! Hophmi says:

        “I agree that America is generally a philo-semitic place.”!!!

        How can he say that? America, philo-semitic? No, quite the opposite, in reality. Are Jews even mentioned in the Declaration of Independence? Nope. Are Jews, and their rights, delineated in the American Constitution? No! Are Jews recognized as an indissoluble people? No!
        Are Jews even given huge swaths of prime land, and their own administration, like the Native Americans? No! Guaranteed employment and cash value, like African Americans? No!
        And you know, did the US ever even recognize a Jewish religious institution? No!
        Did they ever ask us if we wanted to be assimilated, and how much? Did the Founders ever ask Jewish Leaders what would be aprpropriate? No! The bastards just went ahead and assimilated us without so much as a by-your-leave!

        Would the Zionist Jews who were colonizing Palestine ever, ever consider living under those onerous conditions?

        Philo-semitic? The US? Hardly!

      • oldgeezer
        July 13, 2015, 4:28 pm

        @yonah

        Half and quarter Jews eh?

        Now where else have we seen those who track people’s ethnicity in such a fashion. We all know the answer.

        You are a gift that keeps on giving.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 11:43 pm

        “i grew up orthodox and these people are not considered jewish under the rules that i was brought up on.”

        Funny, our money’s good enough for you. I wonder why….

        Oh that’s right, the fewer people you consider Jews, the more acreage you get in Israel? Oh wait, Yonah, sorry, you get property and buildings in Jerusalem, I forgot.

        (This form of entitlement where you brag about how so many of the people already in Judaism don’t deserve to be there, and how many fewer Jews there would be, if things were run right, simply astounds me. I’ve never seen anything like it.

        Nobody owes us anything for being Jewish, “Yonah”, so you won’t get a bigger share of the prize if there are fewer Jews.

      • yonah fredman
        July 15, 2015, 2:28 am

        A few more words on “half Jew”

        First off, I’ve told the Groucho Marx story (nee Julius) about being offered membership in an exclusive country club on condition that he wouldn’t go into the pool. and he said, what about my daughter, she’s only half jewish can she wade in up to her knees? (paraphrase) so to pretend this shock about the existence of this term half jewish is as credible as claude rains’ in casablanca.

        before dealing with this semantic, let me relate an early memory. my parents were discussing someone who hated jews and they used the term antisemite, in a spot in a sentence where it was obvious that they should have said anti Jewish (how does an 8 year old fill in blanks in conversation) and i turned to my 10 year old brother and asked him, “what’s an antisemite”. it’s someone who hates jews, he answered. and he explained the sons of noah, shem, but it was obviously not a natural word and that was the first time i heard it. i can imagine me at 8 hearing someone referred to as half a jew and asking my 10 year old brother what’s a half a jew and he would say: someone whose father is jewish but whose mother is not. being raised in a house of halakha he would not have used that phrase to refer to a child born to a Jewish mother and a nonJewish father.

        Michael douglas was recently given an award for being Jewish. (poetic license to paraphrase). he said, but when i was a kid you said i wasn’t a jew. now he teaches his kid to be proud of his jewish heritage and his kid is taunted for his star of david in antizionist europe.

        because of the halakha that labels the son of a nonJewish mother as a nonjew there is a need for a term to refer to that person’s jewishness. a black child of a white mother has no need to go and define their blackness, they can see it in the mirror. as ben stiller said, jewish law says one thing and the mirror says another.

        i was raised with the belief that there is no such thing as a half jew. either you are born jewish (to a jewish mother) or you convert.

        definitions of percentage of jews is part of the history of the hitler catastrophe and my language is shaped by that as well. it is not a pure and an angelic quality to label someone a half jew. it’s not a pretty term.

        i was trying to tell a story about my friend who belonged in a way to both worlds and had entree into the world of people who would spout off on jew hatred and his blond hair and blue eyes got him inside the home that housed the man who spouted the jew hatred that caused peter to shut down something inside, not to make waves and to just go with the flow, and an essential part of the story was peter’s blond hair and blue eyes which he got from his mother and not his dark haired father and so his racial features were an essential part of the story and so it was relevant.

        peter didn’t like when i called him a half jew to his face, but he didn’t believe in god and his daughters were baptised in the church and in the sense of the jewish faith he really wasn’t jewish. But I felt an affinity towards him at least in part because of similarities in thought and speech and values that I associate with the jewish blood that ran in his veins. And maybe he had a type of belonging to the world that i felt i lack and i associate that with his white European blood and maybe describing him as half jewish gets to some kind of essence in my admiration for him.

        Malcolm X once spoke about hating the white blood that coursed through his veins. I look in the mirror and see white nonJewish forebears among others and I do not hate that blood.

      • RoHa
        July 15, 2015, 3:00 am

        Yonah, lie down, put a dampened cloth over your eyes, breathe slowly.

      • Sibiriak
        July 15, 2015, 3:25 am

        yonah fredman: because of the halakha that labels the son of a nonJewish mother as a nonjew there is a need for a term to refer to that person’s jewishness. a black child of a white mother has no need to go and define their blackness, they can see it in the mirror. as ben stiller said, jewish law says one thing and the mirror says another.

        ———————–

        Fascinating. You’ve obviously spent a lot of time thinking about the “Half-Jewish Question”. Nobody can say your ideas about half-Jews are half-baked, that’s for sure.

        I number of questions do, however, arise in my mind on this important issue.

        What should we call the offspring of a black Jewish father and a white European non-Jewish mother? A half-Jew? A half-black half- Jew? A black half-Jew? A biracial half-Jew…??

        What should we call the offspring of a white-skinned, blond, blue-eyed Ashkenazi Jew and a dark-skinned, dark-haired Mizrahi Jew who looks in the mirror and sees the clear mixing of distinct bloods? A half-Ashkenazi full-Jew? A half-Arab Jew? And if the mother was not Jewish, it would be, what? A half-Arab- half -Jew?

        Pondering these ever-proliferating questions can cause one to go half-crazy!

      • CigarGod
        July 15, 2015, 9:14 am

        Almost.
        The might be the product.

      • Sibiriak
        July 15, 2015, 4:42 am

        yonah fredman: But I felt an affinity towards [half-Jew Peter] at least in part because of similarities in thought and speech and values that I associate with the jewish blood that ran in his veins…
        ——————————–

        “Thought and speech and values” are associated with the kind of blood running through his veins? WTF???

      • echinococcus
        July 15, 2015, 10:15 am

        Mr Fredman not only acknowledges his ideological roots by this half and quarter and octoroons calculus; after having received clear warning from all here he seems to have doubled down:

        because of similarities in thought and speech and values that I associate with the jewish blood that ran in his veins…

        Cleverly hidden in a bible-size gonewiththewind post, hoping that any reader would be put to sleep before arriving to the incriminating passage.
        I suppose Mr Fredman is now definitely on the record as a Rosenbergian in liberal-Zionist clothing.
        It will be a pleasure to keep the quote for every suitable opportunity.

      • yonah fredman
        July 15, 2015, 12:50 pm

        “Speech, thought and values”, are these related to genetics? There is little question that speech patterns are genetic, and peter and I were eerily similar in our speech patterns. to describe thoughts and values to be jewish or genetic is certainly more questionable, but a friend recently told me that our “choice” of preferring trust and hope over security and fear is shown to be no choice at all, but rather a response to a genetic predisposition.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 15, 2015, 1:22 pm

        There is little question that speech patterns are genetic

        really? while genetics contributes to speech and language disorders, does that mean speech patterns, in general, are genetic?

        a friend recently told me that our “choice” of preferring trust and hope over security and fear is shown to be no choice at all, but rather a response to a genetic predisposition.

        maybe you could find out from your friend where he/she read that. i’d be interested in reading the study.

        while i agree that people with genetic disorders could be predisposed to fearful thoughts, does that mean the way someone is raised does not matter, for a person with no recognizable genetic disorders.

        peter and I were eerily similar in our speech patterns

        were you both from brooklyn or something? because i know some valley girls who talk the same but they are genetically diverse.

      • Mooser
        July 15, 2015, 2:29 pm

        ” while genetics contributes to speech and language disorders, does that mean speech patterns, in general, are genetic?”

        Couldn’t be. Unfortunately, it’s not true. I would have been born knowing a lot more, a whole lot more Yiddish if they were.

      • yonah fredman
        July 15, 2015, 4:33 pm

        annie robbins- google “genetic predisposition to conservatism versus liberalism”.

        peter was raised in boston. I was raised in winnipeg canada.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 15, 2015, 5:13 pm

        google “genetic predisposition to conservatism versus liberalism”.

        i was more interested in medical journals or professionals. any urls (do you know how to copy a url?)

      • Mooser
        July 15, 2015, 4:37 pm

        “A few more words on “half Jew””

        Wow, I just hope I never have to rely on the Mondo Moderator to not kick me when I’m down. I had no idea they could be this cold.

      • Mooser
        July 15, 2015, 4:48 pm

        “a friend recently told me that our “choice” of preferring trust”?

        Was he, um, respiring when he told you this, Yonah? Or was he moribund, like your other friends?

      • Mooser
        July 15, 2015, 4:55 pm

        “First off, I’ve told the Groucho Marx story (nee Julius) about being offered membership in an exclusive country club on condition that he wouldn’t go into the pool. and he said, what about my daughter, she’s only half jewish can she wade in up to her knees?”

        Yonah, since when do you go blabbing things told to you in confidence by another Jew? Groucho trusted you when he imparted this story to you. He never put it in his autobiography, or related it to anybody else. Why don’t you keep it private, instead of using it to show your dead friends (I won’t insult them by calling them “half-dead”, the very idea!) how close you are to a dead celebrity.

      • Mooser
        July 15, 2015, 5:11 pm

        “A few more words on “half Jew””

        ‘Dear Hasbarahouse Forum….’

        It’s like soft-core Jewishness porn. And I realize that’s a clumsy way to describe it, but you got a better one?

        BTW, Yonah, you aren’t fooling anybody.
        By “genetic” you mean “RACIAL”. You couldn’t relate any of this to “genetics” if your next pilpul prescription depended on it.

      • yonah fredman
        July 15, 2015, 5:51 pm
      • Annie Robbins
        July 15, 2015, 6:18 pm

        thank you yonah. i noticed it’s written by 3 people from the Department of Political Science at University of Nebraska. i guess i am failing to understand how this is connected to genetics because political science is a social science.

        in their abstract they write:

        the central theme of the differences is a matter of debate. In this article, we argue that one organizing element of the many differences between liberals and conservatives is the nature of their physiological and psychological responses to features of the environment that are negative. Compared with liberals, conservatives tend to register greater physiological responses to such stimuli and also to devote more psychological resources to them. Operating from this point of departure, we suggest approaches for refining understanding of the broad relationship between political views and response to the negative. We conclude with a discussion of normative implications, stressing that identifying differences across ideological groups is not tantamount to declaring one ideology superior to another

        this is in ways different people respond (physiological and psychological) to their environment. they don’t argue they are pre disposed genetically. has anyone from the applied sciences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_science ) delved into this theory or written about it?

      • CigarGod
        July 15, 2015, 6:43 pm

        My daughter is currently in Wein studying genetic determinism and evolutionary psychology. Yonah appears to be dancing between the two schools.

      • RoHa
        July 15, 2015, 7:22 pm

        “There is little question that speech patterns are genetic,”

        And yet my students of Chinese ancestry and my students of Samoan ancestry sound just as Australian as my students of Irish ancestry.

        A great deal of speech is simply imitation of the speech community in which the speaker lives. Grammar, syntax, phonetics and phonemics, and vocabulary are not genetic. Choice of register, choice of vocabulary, sentence complexity, and preferences for rhetorical devices are strongly influenced by education and fashion. (Compare 18th, 19th, and 20th century English to see this in operation.)

        So exactly what aspect of speech is deemed to be a genetically influenced pattern? Could you give some references to the relevant technical literature, please?

      • CigarGod
        July 15, 2015, 8:33 pm

        Used to be a standup comic by the name of randy boomatai. Spoke as much like a texan as any. But was asian looking.
        disconcerting, but cool.

      • Sibiriak
        July 15, 2015, 11:09 pm

        yonah fredman: But I felt an affinity towards him at least in part because of similarities in thought and speech and values that I associate with the jewish blood that ran in his veins.

        * * *

        There is little question that speech patterns are genetic...
        (emphasis added)
        ————————

        So what exactly are the speech patterns associated with Jewish blood (genes)??

      • Sibiriak
        July 15, 2015, 11:36 pm

        yonah fredman: peter didn’t like when i called him a half jew to his face
        ——————

        So why did you do it then?

      • yonah fredman
        July 16, 2015, 2:53 am

        on genetics and speech patterns. I am not talking about accents and such. English versus the Yiddish that my forebears spoke or English versus Mandarin that immigrants to Australia speak. I am talking about the way some people pause between words, like telegraph operators have distinctive patterns of sending dots and dashes (see Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink) it has been my observation that there are distinctive ways of enunciating the words of a sentence. My cousins and myself, raised in different part of the country (but with admittedly similar upbringing) seem to talk similarly in terms of the interface between thought and speech: halting and thoughtful rather than flowing and automatic. It was this pattern of words that I found very similar in Peter and myself, to the extent that one of peter’s daughters once said, “are you two blood brothers?” it is entirely conceivable that this similarity was purely chance or purely environmental. anything is possible. but to my unscientific mind, the similarity of our speech patterns was a sign of some sort of genetic connection. (and the only genetic connection I had with Peter was our shared roots in the Eastern European Jewish gene pool.)

      • CigarGod
        July 16, 2015, 9:05 am

        It is good you talk of evolution.
        Simply begin practicing the advice of an old Jewish wise man, to: Love One Another.
        You can do this now. It requires no transaction. No tit for tat. No give and take. No one needs to admit the errors of their side in order for you to admit yours.
        Go help someone. No, not someone like you. Someone like your enemy.
        Final advice from a modern wise man: Just Do It!
        Evolve.

      • yonah fredman
        July 16, 2015, 5:00 am

        I’m going to close up my comment on my half jewish (dead) friend peter.

        i think jewish identity is a very complicated issue. sound bite internet commentary (in an antizionist milieu) seems not to be the best medium for me to attempt to communicate its complications, but this is the medium at hand.

        zionism makes jewish identity a front page story. if the jews were merely the dispersed as they were in 1881, jewish identity would be a features page story, like the amish only also in the religious section because though most of you are post christians we live in a society whose basic tenets have wrestled with christianity over the last 500 years and that wrestling is part of the culture and the jewish religion is a source of christianity and so we would have a features page story about jewish identity and a religious journalist writing something as well. but obviously zionism makes jewish identity a front page story.

        there are no half jews or full jews, there are only human beings.

        go down to the street corner and yell it at the top of your voice.

        but no, it doesn’t really work that way except in the hothouse of the mw comments section. politics is as constant as commerce which is as constant as the desire to live and walk upright. you cannot cure jewish identity by yelling at me and calling judaism a cult. am yisroel chai! the jewish people live! and they must evolve and adjust and learn all knowledge and learn to get along with the palestinians and learn to view various texts in a new perspective and view history with a new perspective and evolve and assimilate to the ways of the world and a freer society than today’s in terms of the rules of marriage and conversion and jewish identity and i am more from the past than from the future in terms of this evolution that will take place. but you guys, you really don’t like jewish identity and you don’t want to see it evolve, you want to see it smashed and turned into pulp. like ben franklin: america, the future is forward and not backward and jewish identity even of the evolving kind that i tried to sketch, is from the faulkner school of thought: the past is not dead, it is not even the past. and many of you are focused on the politics of zionism, and really don’t give a damn about jewish identity. I’d say two things. read the first paragraph of the about section of mw and tell me how many times the word jewish appears. and second: i understand that you really don’t care about jewish identity. if it were only on the features page (remember newspapers?) and on the religion page you would skip those sections. okay, i hear you.

        half jew is an ugly term. but i had a chance to think a lot about peter these last few days and even if the conditions were uncomfortable, it was good to think about peter. july 4th was his holiday much more than mine and july 4th brought thoughts of peter.

      • Mooser
        July 16, 2015, 3:13 pm

        ” july 4th was his holiday much more than mine and july 4th brought thoughts of peter.”

        Sure, Yonah, and this is why you are entitled Palestine. Got it.

        But Yonah, when you came greasin’ back from the settlements, you weren’t even a little bit grateful to have the shitty old USA to come home to? Aw, you poor thing, torn between two countries like a man torn between two lovers. Now, that’s oppression, baby.

    • tree
      July 13, 2015, 2:28 am

      From what I’ve read, I’d guess that anti Jewish sentiment in 1971 was worse in New Jersey and New York state than in Massachusetts, but I don’t really know. I’m sure the Gallup people polled the country to determine anti Jewish attitudes and if you wanted to do some real research instead of depending upon your own anecdotes, you might be able to speak from knowledge rather than from a random sample of one.

      Yonah,

      First off, Oren’s own account is anecdotal- a random sample of one. There’s no more reason to believe his experience was more typical than any other person’s anecdotal account. Hophmi mentioned Ocean Hill/ Brownsville and Canarsie but as my link here points out, what he is using as an example of anti-semitism was in fact a power struggle in those neighborhoods between Jews and Catholics on one side and blacks on the other. The OC/B political struggle had to do with local control of public schools there, which had a predominantly black enrollment, and Canarsie had to do with the issue of busing of black students into predominantly white schools. I’m sure some anti-semitic statements were bandied about, as I am sure so were racist and ethnic Catholic bashing ones as well, but to boil it all down to its essence, the outer borough Jews of NYC formed alliances with their mostly Catholic fellow whites in opposing the efforts of NYC blacks to have more control over their lives, and more power within the city. In the struggle for more power, it was the blacks who lost. To quote my link:

      The black-Jewish feud at Ocean Hill-Brownsville was more than just a case of unrealistic expectations and demands, however. When black writer James Baldwin, referring to the Ocean Hill dispute, said “it is cowardly and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man,” he captured what was driving Jews away from blacks, and toward white Catholics, at this time.26 Black intellectuals like Baldwin, Harold Cruse, and Julius Lester had long complained of Jewish ambivalence – an ambivalence of convenience, in their view – toward their white identity.27 These criticisms peaked during the Ocean Hill-Brownsville controversy. Black local board supporters responded to allegations of anti Semitism arguing that they harbored no special animus toward Jews. They opposed them, they maintained, not because they were Jewish, but because they were white. As the black cultural journal Liberator put it, “(t)he Jew should not be13 singled out for any particular righteousness or duplicity. For ultimately, in the American context, he is a white man, no more, no less.”28Throughout the 1940s, 1950s, and early 1960s, New York Jews had constructed a dual identity, one that was not “black,” but not quite “white,”either. This stance had its benefits, to be sure. It allowed Jews the option of identifying as white, or, when this was deemed inappropriate, as a besieged minority group. But at Ocean Hill-Brownsville, black resentment of this position’s privileges finally burst to the surface. Jews would no longer be permitted the luxury of ambivalence about their “whiteness”: they would have to make a choice.

      And, during the bitter days of September, October, and November 1968, the Jews of New York’s outer boroughs made their choice. Pushed by a black community that regarded them as “whites, no more, no less,” and pulled by the promise of a race-based coalition with white Catholics, they completed their journey to unambiguous white identity, the last group of Caucasians in America to do so.

      Ocean Hill-Brownsville taught Jews and Catholics that the whiteness uniting them was more important than any of the things that had divided them in the past. In outer-borough neighborhoods like Forest Hills and Canarsie, Jews stood alongside their Catholic neighbors to keep blacks “out”: out of their homes, in the case of Forest Hills, where in 1972 a Lindsay-backed low-income housing
      plan was defeated by community pressure, and out of their schools, in the case of Canarsie, where Jews and Catholics worked together in 1972 and 1973 to block a Board of Education initiative that would have bused in black students.32

      http://www.gothamcenter.org/festival/2001/confpapers/podair.pdf

      This is the context within the areas that Hophmi claimed were cases of rampant anti-semitism, but the animosities were over political issues, and the battle lines that were drawn were white -black, not Jew, non-Jew.

      As for the reliability of Oren’s anecdotal teenage memories, its important to remember that we have numerous accounts of Oren either lying about or mis-remembering much more recent incidents, and that this is the man who sought to blame a US ambassador for the violent Israeli attack on Es Samu in 1966, as well as the man who claimed that a Palestinian teenager shot and killed in a cold-blood murder that was captured on security camera footage wasn’t really dead. He has serious issues with the truth, so, given that, the tendency to discount his retelling of his story is completely understandable. And as Phil has pointed out, Oren left out any mention that Kahane was due to speak there, and that it might have been a motive for the explosion. And even if not, the welcome presence of a violent racism at Oren’s synagogue should be a part of the story he tells, bu its not. So again there is a factual basis to question his retelling of this teenage anecdote.

      Today it is 70 years since the end of WWII, but Israel was established three years after WWII and any discussion that will focus on israel’s birth will of historical accuracy deal with antisemitism.

      And any discussion of Israel needs to deal with Jewish bigotry as well, since the primary problem for the Palestinians, and in reality for Israel as well, is the racism and bigotry of Jews. Just as a discussion of the historical oppression of blacks would be incomplete without discussion the racism of whites and the white power structure, so any historical discussion of Israel/Palestine would be incomplete without discussing Jewish attitudes and power structures. No one seriously called discussions of white racism and white power structures anti-white, even when these discussions sometimes slipped into over broad generalizations and stereotypes. Yet similar discussions of Jewish racism and religious bigotry are constantly being called into question as anti-semitic. Frankly I think this has more to do with un-acknowledged anti-gentile bias among some Jews, the very same bias that oppresses the Palestinians so severely in Israel, than it does with true anti-semitic speech or actions.

      • Marnie
        July 13, 2015, 2:48 am

        @Yonah –

        “i grew up orthodox and these people are not considered jewish under the rules that i was brought up on. I met a half jew by the kotel back in 77 or 79, the wall, the wailing wall in occupied al quds, if you will, and his yearning for things jewish was quite apparent, but at the time i was still under the thrall of torah definitions and he wasn’t jewish to me and that was that. i’ve met a son of a jewish man and a nonjewish woman who converted to judaism and became ultra orthodox. and to the orthodox someone half jewish is not jewish. i’ve met kids of a jewish woman whose father is not jewish and they really don’t consider themselves jewish. would i call them half jews? i might. i’d call them half jews, but the right half and with peter i called him a half jew, but the wrong half. when his daughter heard me referring to her as a quarter jew she was quite offended. when i saw his daughter crossing herself when she passed a church i was taken aback.”

        You seem to enjoy “provoking”, but you’re far from being alone on that. After reading your post I had to wonder how many fights you started with fellow Jews who weren’t receptive to your judgment and categorizing who’s who. I pictured you as a Michael Oren, but one who picks fights with your own and probably got your clock cleaned by one of your own for your presumption and prejudices. Maybe you cried wolf (damn goyim beat me up ma!). I can only go by your posts, but you seem to like to start shit. I think Oren likes to start shit too, but he started shit with “goyim” and you start shit within the tribe. Oren likes to start shit within the tribe too, with his provocation and obvious disdain for non-zionist Jews. There’s more than enough of that to go around in ye old “holy” land. I think if Israeli Jews didn’t have Muslims and Christians to fuck with they’d be killing each other.

        I never said and never will say that antisemitism doesn’t exist. I don’t think that it is as prevalent as some claim and I don’t believe that Jews collectively are in danger or under threat. I do believe if you cry wolf constantly you’re in great danger of being ignored when a real wolf is at your throat. And that, Yonah, you can thank the zionists for.

      • Brewer
        July 13, 2015, 3:16 am

        Thank you for that very pertinent and valuable contribution Tree.
        Memes govern all human behaviour. Of all the Memes, anti-Semitism is the most pernicious. It has distorted discourse for too long. To those who wish to cling to it I say sorry. Not for what I just said, I am sorry for you, for the World in which you dwell.
        As I have pointed out above, tragedy and oppression is part of our heritage – all of us.
        Enlightened members of the human family refuse that inheritance. They pick up, move on and do not oppress others.

      • justicewillprevail
        July 13, 2015, 6:28 am

        Great response and research, tree. Puts hoppy’s wild allegations and fact-free assertions in the light in which they deserve to be seen – as the usual hokum and bluster. Thanks for the fascinating insight and well-sourced arguments.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2015, 11:53 am

        Oh please. No one denies that Ocean Hill/Brownsville was a political power struggle that unfortunately pitted inner-city African-Americans against a teachers’ union that was substantially Jewish at a time when the civil rights coalition of late 1950’s-mid 1960’s was deteriorating. That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t accompanied by some antisemitism which people here seem to deny existed. Context is not an excuse for bigotry. There are always political excuses people offer for antisemitism and for all forms of bigotry.

        “And any discussion of Israel needs to deal with Jewish bigotry as well, since the primary problem for the Palestinians, and in reality for Israel as well, is the racism and bigotry of Jews.”

        You’re so completely wrong. The main problem for Palestinians is that they lack sovereignty, not that some Israelis may be bigoted toward them. If the Palestinians had a state of their own and control over their own destinies, I doubt they’d give a rats’ patootie what Israelis, or the many Arabs who dislike them for that matter, thought of them. For that matter, I doubt the Israelis would care what Palestinians thought of Jews if Palestinian terrorist organizations weren’t marking Jewish civilians for murder.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 1:35 pm

        That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t accompanied by some antisemitism which people here seem to deny existed.

        could you source that please. the part about people here denying Ocean Hill/Brownsville was not accompanied by some anti semitism.

        at first i thought you were responding tree, but since she wrote “I’m sure some anti-semitic statements were bandied about, as I am sure so were racist and ethnic Catholic bashing ones as well, but to boil it all down to its essence, the outer borough Jews of NYC formed alliances with their mostly Catholic fellow whites in opposing the efforts of NYC blacks to have more control over their lives, and more power within the city. In the struggle for more power, it was the blacks who lost.” it could not have been her.

        Context is not an excuse for bigotry.

        what bigotry are you alleging was “excused”? because it reads to me as tho you are excusing bigotry here:

        The main problem for Palestinians is that they lack sovereignty, not that some Israelis may be bigoted toward them. If the Palestinians had a state of their own and control over their own destinies, I doubt they’d give a rats’ patootie what Israelis, or the many Arabs who dislike them for that matter, thought of them.

        since they lack sovereignty because a certain ethnic national state won’t allow it nor allow them equal rights claiming bigotry is not a core problem for palestinians is a gross form of denial.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 12:10 pm

        Marnie, Yonah has made it pretty clear what formed him, why he is the way he is. Judaism, of course, we like to think of eternal, but I’m thinking that the statute of limitations has run out on a lot of the things which make Yonah the man he is.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 12:12 pm

        “This is the context within the areas that Hophmi claimed were cases of rampant anti-semitism, but the animosities were over political issues, and the battle lines that were drawn were white -black, not Jew, non-Jew.”

        BINGO! Yup, that link cleared up a lot.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 12:23 pm

        Well, one things for sure! When “Yonah” starts talking about “fractional Jews” you know we’ve pretty much reached the lowest common denominator!

        Oh well, you can’t argue with arithmetic! See, the more people we can kick out of the Jews (leaving only the Orthodox, I would guess, although I don’t know which sect or faction will inherit the whine) the more Israel there is for each remaining Jew!.
        And what good are the rest of us? See, if we don’t perform Jewish ritual on a regular basis, are we really contributing? Who needs all those “half’Jews” and “quarter-Jews” milling around, getting all the cash, prizes and glory, the Orthodox(?) alone deserve!

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 1:02 pm

        Gosh, I feel bad for Gentiles sometimes! Gosh I hate to be condescending, but they will never know the spiritual comforts afforded by a religion which grows more popular, and more powerful in direct proportion to how many people are kicked out of it! or considered not worthy of it.

        And if I’m the last Jew standing, I get it all!

      • bintbiba
        July 16, 2015, 9:21 am

        @CigarGod July 16, 2015, 9:05 am

        “It is good you talk of evolution.
        Simply begin practicing the advice of an old Jewish wise man, to: Love One Another.
        You can do this now. It requires no transaction. No tit for tat. No give and take. No one needs to admit the errors of their side in order for you to admit yours.
        Go help someone. No, not someone like you. Someone like your enemy.
        Final advice from a modern wise man: Just Do It!
        Evolve.”

        So very well said, CG !!
        Thank you .

      • CigarGod
        July 16, 2015, 9:30 am

        Thanks, Bintbiba,
        When a habitual knot-head has a semi-lucid moment of self-examination…I consider it my responsibility to practice what I preach…and offer a hand.

      • Mooser
        July 16, 2015, 3:59 pm

        “i grew up orthodox and these people are not considered jewish under the rules that i was brought up on.”

        Yeah, we get it Yonah, they are only entitled to one-half or one-quarter of the manifold prizes, sinecures and emoluments we receive for being Jewish.

        Gosh, I’ve never, ever seen people be picky about who was in the proletariat with them. It is only elites who are concerned about admitting too many people to their privileges, isn’t it?

        Of course, if I was a religion who had its numbers reduced and was seriously concerned about its survival, I would try to be as inclusive as possible. But that probably violates some religious precept about who can get in on the rewards.

  31. Qualtrough
    July 13, 2015, 12:33 am

    The logical result of getting your own country as a result of childhood bullying would mean that we would have sovereign nations for gays, those wearing glasses, the physically weak, kids with really bad acne, goths, vegetarians, hippies, — ad infinitum. What about nerds you ask? Nerds could emigrate to their own Nerdistan where they could live with their own kind in total happiness as God intended. Only the jocks and prom kings and queens would be left to inherit the USA.

  32. Brewer
    July 13, 2015, 5:14 am

    Time to lighten up. Have a look at this, a musical event that, in my opinion, ranks with the greatest works of art yet revealed.

    • Marnie
      July 13, 2015, 6:59 am

      @Brewer –

      Oh does that bring back memories – I saw Boz Skaggs on a bill with the Elvin Bishop Band (who was my favorite at the time) and was completely sideswiped by Boz Skaggs – it was magical!

      • Brewer
        July 13, 2015, 6:01 pm

        “ranks with the greatest works of art yet revealed.”
        Oh boy. That was a jolly fine Pinot Gris last night!
        But it is good isn’t it. I like my music live and that is as near-perfect a performance by each participant as I have seen. Great songs flawlessly delivered. So glad you liked it Marnie – very generous of Boz to put the entire concert out there for us.

      • just
        July 13, 2015, 6:15 pm

        I neglected to thank you for that, Brewer.

        It was sublime. I have had the good fortune to see him perform live~ your treat was nearly the same. I’ve been humming his tunes all day.

      • Brewer
        July 13, 2015, 6:50 pm

        Had you in mind when I posted it Just.

      • just
        July 14, 2015, 6:06 pm

        How very kind, Brewer! I’m touched.

        ;-)

  33. lysias
    July 13, 2015, 11:00 am

    O/T, there’s an Israeli connection in the notorious case of Michigan Judge Gorcyca, who sent three children into detention for refusing to meet with their father (saying he had abused the mother) until the judge was forced to back down by the bad publicity. The father wanted the family to live with him in Israel and indeed took the children there without the mother’s consent, until the mother took them back (something the father claims was kidnapping). Michigan judge bullies children in open court for refusing to see their dad.

    Here’s the story of the judge backing down: Judge releases 3 kids locked up for failing to meet with dad. They’re still not reunited with their mother, as they want. They’re being sent to summer camp by the judge.

    Here’s the article about it in the Forward: 3 Israeli-American Kids Who Refused To See Dad Freed From Juvenile Detention

  34. 2sense
    July 13, 2015, 11:44 am

    I grew up in West Orange, NJ with Michael Bornstein (later renamed Michael Oren). His description of West Orange and his account is entirely fictional, apparently created as a springboard for his larger narrative and memoir.

    In the 50’s 60’s, and 70’s, when he lived there, the western half of West Orange (“up the hill”) largely was comprised of Jewish and Catholic families, many of whom moved out of NYC, Newark, and East Orange, in a flight to suburbia after WWII. The homes were average in size, and families were middle and upper middle class, and heavily skewed to white collar and professional occupations.

    I lived in Bornstein’s/Oren’s West Orange, attended school with him, and attended the same synagogue, The Jewish Center of West Orange (later renamed B’nai Shalom).

    From Kindergarten to 12th grade, I never once encountered any anti-semitism, and know of no one in West Orange who encountered any anti-semitism there. (My first shocking encounter was while traveling in N. Africa in 1977.)

    Bornstein/Oren grew up on Ahern Way in West Orange, http://binged.it/1Ru2MuA, where his parents still live, across the street from an exclusively Jewish country club, founded in 1954 by Jewish families that primarily moved to the suburbs from Newark, http://www.crestmontcountryclub.com/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?NS=PUBLIC&DN=HISTORY.

    While the 1971 bombing of B’nai Shalom has been well covered, here, no one ever thought it was related to anything other controversial Rabbi Meir Kahane’s scheduled appearance. It was a tragic event, but as a member of that shul who lived three blocks from it, I can attest to the fact that the damage was limited to one area of a rather large complex (BTW, because there were so many Jewish families in the vicinity). Our congregation barely missed a beat afterwards, and quickly rebuilt its damaged sanctuary. I frankly have a hard time believing Bornstein/Oren honestly gets “very choked up when [he] think[s] about it.”

    Curiously, some time between this March 2013 interview, http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/03/as_israeli_ambassador_to_unite.html, and creating his memoir, Bornstein’s/Oren’s childhood morphed from “his ‘painfully normal’ upbringing” and “growing up was very much [like] ‘Happy Days’ ” in West Orange to the blue collar, anti-semitic community that he now describes in his memoir.

    From The New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/books/review/michael-b-orens-ally-my-journey-across-the-american-israeli-divide.html?ref=review

    “This fierce attachment to Israel was fortified by the anti-Semitism he encountered in his blue-collar neighborhood. ‘The only Jewish kid on the block,’ he writes, ‘I rarely made it off the school bus without being ambushed by Jew-baiting bullies.’ After each incident, Oren says, his father showed him an album that his brother, a World War II veteran, had given him. It contained yellowing pictures of concentration camps and corpses. According to Oren, ‘The ovens of Auschwitz, I often felt in high school, were still smoldering.’”

    Michael Oren’s account of his childhood (and gratuitous smearing of his home town) makes NBC’s Brian Williams’ fictitious accounts look tame by comparison.

    • Annie Robbins
      July 13, 2015, 1:39 pm

      Curiously, some time between this March 2013 interview, link to nj.com, and creating his memoir, Bornstein’s/Oren’s childhood morphed from “his ‘painfully normal’ upbringing” and “growing up was very much [like] ‘Happy Days’ ” in West Orange to the blue collar, anti-semitic community that he now describes in his memoir.

      very very interesting 2sense.

      • tree
        July 13, 2015, 2:49 pm

        Annie,

        May I suggest that you contact Phil and see if he would like to add the link to the nj.com interview that 2sense posted as an update to his article. Some people may not read all the comments, here and might miss it, but if its an update to the article it will get more coverage as a obvious inconsistency in Oren’s story of his teenage years.

        And if Oren did live across the street from a Jewish Country club, its highly unlikely that he was “the only Jewish kid on the block” and lived in a “blue-collar neighborhood”.

      • hophmi
        July 13, 2015, 4:25 pm

        This article from 2009 quotes Yossi Klein Halevi saying the Oren experienced a considerable amount of antisemitism growing up (a claim which Norman predictably pokes fun at). http://normanfinkelstein.com/2009/05/10/michael-experienced-a-great-deal-of-anti-semitism-growing-up-said-close-friend-and-colleague-yossi-klein-halevi-there-were-physical-attacks-and-constant-taunting-which-was-a-formative-experie/

        But again, denying narratives of antisemitism is very common here at Mondoweiss. One wonders why.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 4:49 pm

        tree, just saw your comment. i already contacted phil immediately upon reading the original comment – plus the email address of 2sense in case he might want to contact/interview this person.

        hops, One wonders why.

        some mantras get boring?

        maybe people are unimpressed w/the “new” antisemitism campaign?

        maybe people don’t like lobbiests influenced by foreign governments trying to change legislation to take away our freedom for speech?

        maybe people think it’s sadistic and insensitive to be prioritizing racism against jews when palestinian children get murdered routinely and are completely ignore by our mainstream press?

        there are many reasons probably. assuming incidences have gone up that is. there’s an industry promoting recognition of bigotry towards jews that, at the same time, ignores or downplays the promotion and support of bigotry towards others — arabs, muslims and blacks specifically. it’s so very “complicated”.

      • tree
        July 13, 2015, 5:16 pm

        Thanks, Annie! I should have known you’d be on it. ;-)

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2015, 5:20 pm

        ;) my pleasure.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 10:25 pm

        “But again, denying narratives of antisemitism is very common here at Mondoweiss. One wonders why.”

        Well, only because the book is being touted as “non-fiction”. If he had just called it “My Narrative as I Imagined it” there would be no fuss.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 12:57 pm

        “tree, just saw your comment. i already contacted phil immediately upon reading the original comment – plus the email address of 2sense in case he might want to contact/interview this person.”

        Since 2sense isn’t willing to reveal his identity, his account is suspect, and I’m not sure what 2sense’s credibility is to know what Michael Oren himself experienced. Oren says that he got into fistfights on the bus to school, that racist slogans were scrawled on the door to his family home, and that the family car windshield was smashed. If 2sense has any evidence that these events did not take place, he should present it.

        Crestmont Country Club was one of the country clubs started by Jews in the 1950’s (the club dates from 1913) because they were excluded from Christian clubs. Regardless, I’m not sure what the relevance is of the fact that they live across the street from a club.

        The New York Times covered the bombing of West Orange Jewish Center. According to the 4/18/71 report, police and firefighters said the damage appeared to be “heavy” and the 4/19/71 report indicated that there were several broken windows and that the FBI was investigating the attack.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 3:30 pm

        “Crestmont Country Club was one of the country clubs started by Jews in the 1950’s (the club dates from 1913) because they were excluded from Christian clubs.”

        Hophmi discrimination was legal then, and that kind of social discrimination was considered laudable, as people wanted to preserve their bloodlines. I’m sure you are familiar with that concept, among other reasons for it. You know preserving their cultures, learning, like you say.
        Anyway, Hophmi, discrimination was legal, and Jews could do it, too.

      • tree
        July 14, 2015, 4:12 pm

        Hophmi,

        Given your profession and training I can only surmise that you are being intentionally obtuse. 2sense linked to a 2013 nj.com interview with Oren himself which totally contradicts what Oren claims in his memoir. It’s not just 2sense’s word against Oren’s, its Oren contradicting himself.

        2sense also imparted some important information about exactly where Oren grew up. The address of Oren’s mother is available on the internet and it confirms what 2sense said. The nj.com article also confirms that Oren grew up in that house in West Orange that he mother still lives in. It is across the street from a Jewish Country Club. The significance of that bit of information is that Oren claims 1) that he grew up in a “blue-collar neighborhood”, 2) he claims he was the only “Jewish kid on the block”. Country clubs, whether Jewish or not, do not get built in blue collar neighborhoods. They are an element of an upper middle class-middle class neighborhood. Jewish Country Clubs, like country clubs of any sort, are usually built in areas that are convenient and within easy driving distance of their members. If there was a Jewish country club adjacent to his parents home in the 1970’s its a high probability that a significant number of Jews lived in the area.

        This is also indicated by the fact that Oren’s synagogue, Bnei Shalom, was less than a mile and a half from his home, and it was quite a large one. These two documented facts would support 2sense’s contention that the neighborhood had a good number of Jews in it, in order to support both a large synagogue and a Jewish country club.

        The high school he went to, West Orange High, was less than a mile from Bnei Shalom, and was also less than a mile and a half from Oren’s home, so it was clearly in the same close vicinity. And yet Oren wants us to believe that he was a victimized minority at his school. 2sense’s description of the neighborhood and the school is much more inline with the facts.

        So what we have is Oren contradicting himself, within the span of the last 2 years;first describing his growing up as being like “Happy Days” to later describing it as an unending ordeal of being the victim of anti-semitic acts. We also have facts that contradict Oren’s description of his neighborhood as blue-collar and his description of himself as being part of a small victimized minority in his neighborhood. All this is what discredits Oren’s memoir, and at the same time, gives credit to 2sense’s admittedly anonymous description.

      • Bornajoo
        July 14, 2015, 4:47 pm

        “Hophmi,

        Given your profession and training I can only surmise that you are being intentionally obtuse.”

        Nothing new Tree!

        Many thanks for your excellent comment! 2sense’s comments are indeed corroborated with facts on the ground. Oren has no credibility and has a serious problem with the truth

      • Mooser
        July 15, 2015, 5:22 pm

        “Since 2sense isn’t willing to reveal his identity, his account is suspect”

        Gee, Hophmi, aren’t you the same Hophmi who said, when his bona fides as the “Outreach King” were questioned:

        “Phil knows who I am. Curious that you ask me for my identity, but no one else here. And really, really bad faith on your part”, – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi?keyword=Phil+knows+who+I+am#sthash.RRDUxcnR.dpuf

    • tree
      July 13, 2015, 2:07 pm

      Thanks 2sense. When someone here (just?) mentioned that Oren’s father was a hospital administrator and his mother a family therapist, two upper middle class white collar jobs, I wondered why he described his neighborhood as “blue collar”.

      Seems like his memoir is full of fictions.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 2:22 pm

        “Thanks 2sense.”

        You can say that again.

    • ckg
      July 13, 2015, 2:25 pm

      The homes were average in size, and families were middle and upper middle class, and heavily skewed to white collar and professional occupations.

      Census figures seem to agree. In 2000 West Orange had a median household income of $69K, compared to $51K in all of New Jersey and $42K nationwide. [Wikipedia]

    • just
      July 13, 2015, 5:33 pm

      Superbe, 2sense! It makes so much sense, but to hear it from a fellow traveler is sweet beyond compare.

      I love it, love it, love it! Kerpow! His lies are unraveling!

      (He’ll make a good PM…)

    • Brewer
      July 13, 2015, 7:30 pm

      @ 2sense.
      My thanks also.
      The facts in your post would be informative in a review of Oren’s book on Amazon.

      • 2sense
        July 14, 2015, 8:02 am

        One additional point about Oren’s bizarre recollections that supported him making this offensive statement:

        “According to Oren, ‘The ovens of Auschwitz, I often felt in high school, were still smoldering.’”

        There were so many Jewish families living in West Orange, when he lived there, the public school board decided to close school for three days for the Jewish high holidays, because attendance otherwise was too low to operate normally its classes.

        The only smoldering he may have encountered was sitting in unairconditioned services at his temple.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 1:00 pm

        “There were so many Jewish families living in West Orange, when he lived there, the public school board decided to close school for three days for the Jewish high holidays, because attendance otherwise was too low to operate normally its classes.”

        Of course, Oren’s comment about the smoldering ovens of Auschwitz has nothing to do with how many Jews lived in West Orange. Oren’s point was that his uncle had taken part in liberating the camps, that this haunted him and his family. Oren grew up about 25 years after the end of the Holocaust. It was hardly a distant memory at that point.

      • tree
        July 14, 2015, 5:20 pm

        Of course, Oren’s comment about the smoldering ovens of Auschwitz has nothing to do with how many Jews lived in West Orange.

        Oren’s comment was comparing West Orange, New Jersey and Auschwitz, for heaven’s sake. He wasn’t just talking about “smoldering overs” he was talking about “STILL smoldering ovens” in 1971, when relaying his narrative about how tough it was in West Orange. The fact that there were plenty of Jews who chose to live there is entirely pertinent to the question of the validity of Oren’s statements, since I think even you would agree that American Jews would not purposely move to, or continue to live in, an American Auschwitz.

        In fact, there at least one similar incident in 1971. On September 20, 1971, a bomb was discovered in the Great Neck Synagogue on Long Island on the first day of Rosh Hashanah.

        Now you are really flailing. The bomb at Oren’s synagogue was, according to police, a “professional job”. The one on Long Island was a pill bottle bomb, something that teenage boys have a habit of making and detonating in order to see and hear the explosion. Any competent police officer or fire official will tell you that the likelihood of the two incidents being related, or committed by the same person or persons, is next to nil.

        Public bathrooms usually have great acoustics to amplify the sound of these small explosions (and a wealth of toilet paper to use as a fuse of sorts). Its just as likely that young Jewish boys were the ones who created it, in a bit of teenage mischief, as it was anyone else. Such small bombs can cause injury, sometimes serious, depending on the chemicals used, which is why it was taken away and detonated by the police. (They usually blow it up with other explosives in a well armored box to eliminate the chance of injury.)

        I find it rather amusingly typical that the source you linked to about it (The International Institute of Counter-Terrorism in Israel) considers it one of 6 “terrorist incidents against Jewish communities and Israeli citizens abroad” committed in 1971, and one of only two in the US- with the explosion at the West Orange Synagogue in April being the only other one in the US.

        If a pill bottle bomb most likely built by a couple of mischievous Jewish teenage boys is considered an act of anti-semitic “terrorism” then its obvious why so many of us here consider these tales and counts of anti-semitism to be grossly inflated.

    • Marnie
      July 14, 2015, 3:54 am

      Gee whiz, who’d have thought Mr. Oren would embellish, misrepresent and flat out lie about his growing up under the oppression of antisemitism in Amer’ka, where he had to fight ever day just to say alive.

      Thanks for shedding light on this shady fiction.

    • Elisabeth
      July 14, 2015, 7:39 am

      “After each incident, Oren says, his father showed him an album that his brother, a World War II veteran, had given him. It contained yellowing pictures of concentration camps and corpses.”

      Apart from his father being a sick person if this story is true, the suggestion is clearly that his brother took those pictures himself. They certainly did not sell postcards of concentration camps full of corpses in Europe, and if the brother cut the pictures out of newspapers or books and pasted them in his album, then why mention that he was a WW II veteran in this passage?

      The following concentration camps were liberated by American troops: Buchenwald, Dora-Mittelbau, Flossenbürg, Dachau and Mauthausen.

      Can it be checked if his brother was indeed involved in the liberation of any of these camps?

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 2:40 pm

        Just sort of curious – do you think it’s sick when Muslim TV stations in Qatar or Saudi Arabia broadcast graphic photos of Muslims killed in Iraq or Gaza or Afghanistan?

        And now we’re going to question whether Oren’s brother was involved in the liberation of concentration camps. Do you dispute that the concentration camps existed, Elisabeth? Because if you don’t, what on earth is your point?

      • Elisabeth
        July 14, 2015, 5:17 pm

        My point is that a father showing his young son pictures of corpses in concentration camps is sick in the first place. If it is true that he did this every time his son had gotten into a fight with non-Jews, this is even sicker, as this sets the child up psychologically to hate and distrust all non-Jews, in other words: The world around him.

        But as practically all Oren writes about his childhood has proven to be melodramatic phantasy, I do not believe this maudlin story either: The yellowing pictures in the old album, brought home by his uncle, who witnessed the concentration camps himself, shown to the young boy beaten up by non-Jews on a daily basis…

        Gimme a break. The guy should have become a scenario writer for crappy movies.

      • CigarGod
        July 14, 2015, 9:34 pm

        Exactly.
        I’ve been saying this for a week.

      • Mooser
        July 16, 2015, 3:27 pm

        “And now we’re going to question whether Oren’s brother was involved in the liberation of concentration camps.”

        No, it is going to be ascertained. That shouldn’t be too hard. In fact, if the photos are private, previously unpublished pictures taken by a serviceman or officer at the liberation of the camps, they may be important historical documents.
        If they are, instead, copies some of the photos already available from different sources, that’s something else again.

    • Philip Weiss
      July 14, 2015, 8:20 am

      Thanks for that 2Sense… Confirms my own instinct/memory on these matters

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 1:22 pm

        “Thanks for that 2Sense… Confirms my own instinct/memory on these matters”

        Again Phil, what evidence do you have that the specific incidents that Oren mentions did not take place? You seem to be under this impression that West Orange, New Jersey was this Jewish town. It isn’t. Jews are a relatively small part of the population of West Orange. Why do feel entitled to question the personal histories of other people?

        Maybe a synagogue bombing has a different effect on some people. Oren says it was a formative experience, and since it damaged the sanctuary, I assume his account of firefighters carrying out Torah scrolls is accurate. NY Times reporting makes no mention of Kahane either, by the way, so I guess they left out what you think is the most important detail. And that may be because despite “assumptions,” there was no evidence that the bombing was linked to Kahane’s appearance. In fact, there at least one similar incident in 1971. On September 20, 1971, a bomb was discovered in the Great Neck Synagogue on Long Island on the first day of Rosh Hashanah.

        http://www.ict.org.il/Article/893/Terrorist%20Incidents%20against%20Jewish%20Communities%20and%20Israeli%20Citizens%20Abroad,%201968-2003

      • Kris
        July 14, 2015, 3:11 pm

        Interesting , Hophmi, about the bomb in the Great Neck Synagogue. I can’t seem to find links to news stories about this bomb. According to The Jewish Telegraphic Agency http://www.jta.org/1971/09/22/archive/bomb-scare-empties-synagogue:

        GREAT NECK, N.Y. (Sep. 21)

        Some 2,700 worshippers left Rosh Hashanah services Monday at Temple Israel of Great Neck after police found a bomb in the synagogue’s lavatory. Rabbi Mordecai Waxman advised the worshippers to leave after the discovery. Services were resumed an hour later after removal of the device. Police said the explosive consisted of chemicals in a plastic pill container. The Nassau County police bomb squad wrapped the bomb in a blanket and took it to a nearby parking lot where it was detonated.

        Could you share any links you have to news stories about this? Thanks.

      • hophmi
        July 14, 2015, 3:55 pm

        It looks like you found the JTA story.

      • Kris
        July 15, 2015, 12:33 am

        @hophmi: “It looks like you found the JTA story.”

        The Jewish Telegraphic Agency is the only news source for this story, then? Doesn’t it seem odd that no other paper bothered to report on a bomb found in a Long Island synagogue, if it was truly a threatening event? Not even the Wikipedia article about this synagogue mentions this event.

        Maybe a pill-bottle “bomb” is not worth reporting on, except when used as “evidence” of antisemitism?

        Or maybe there was at that time (1971) a mainstream media blackout on news concerning Jews, just as there has been recently on news about Palestinians?

      • hophmi
        July 15, 2015, 10:15 am

        “The Jewish Telegraphic Agency is the only news source for this story, then? Doesn’t it seem odd that no other paper bothered to report on a bomb found in a Long Island synagogue, if it was truly a threatening event? Not even the Wikipedia article about this synagogue mentions this event.”

        The NY Times covered it as well, reprinting a UPI wire. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D04E5DD1F3FE63ABC4951DFBF66838A669EDE

      • Marnie
        July 16, 2015, 12:30 am

        I can’t get over how they attack your articles and your comments to other posters. Hophmi and Yonah are your #1 fans.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNRXS-lDgYg

  35. jon s
    July 13, 2015, 3:37 pm

    What’s more important today is the upsurge of anti-Semitism, and its convergence with anti-Zionism -especially in Europe – and not whether Dr. Oren’s personal recollections are accurate.

    The reactions I’ve seen here on MW to the present increase in anti-Semitic incidents are:
    (a) It isn’t happening.
    (b) It may be happening, but Israel and Zionism are to blame.
    (c) It may be happening , but what about the Palestinians? what about Islamophobia? (“Whataboutery”, I love that term.)
    (d) It may be happening, but I don’t care (Norman Finkelstein).

    • lysias
      July 13, 2015, 3:57 pm

      What’s more important today is the upsurge of anti-Semitism

      What are the statistics on anti-Semitic incidents? Have they really been increasing in number? I thought I had read that they have become less frequent over time here in the U.S.

      • CigarGod
        July 13, 2015, 7:21 pm

        Well, we know there have been a rash of fake incidents in the last couple years…Jewish kids scribbling the grafitti.
        The Mormons have quite a few grafitti incidents. I myself posted a Mark Twain quote about homely morman women.
        Of course there are all those grafitti incidents on mosque’s…and their bombings, of course…done by Jews in some cases.

    • Mooser
      July 13, 2015, 4:31 pm

      “The reactions I’ve seen here on MW to the present increase in anti-Semitic incidents are: (blah, blah, blah)

      “Jon s” if what you see disturbs you, maybe you shouldn’t look. I can assure you that if you cease to read the Mondo comments, nobody will come to your house and force you to.

    • Kris
      July 13, 2015, 4:43 pm

      @jon s: “What’s more important today is the upsurge of anti-Semitism, and its convergence with anti-Zionism -especially in Europe – and not whether Dr. Oren’s personal recollections are accurate.”

      Not in the context of discussing this article, js. You are trying to deflect the discussion from what a liar Oren has been shown to be, to the hasbara fall-back topic, imagined antisemitism.

      Oh, wait! Is it “antisemitic” to notice that when you don’t like the direction a discussion is taking, you start beating the dead “antisemitic” horse?

    • Annie Robbins
      July 13, 2015, 5:03 pm

      The reactions I’ve seen here on MW to the present increase in anti-Semitic incidents are:
      (a) It isn’t happening.
      (b) It may be happening, but Israel and Zionism are to blame.
      (c) It may be happening , but what about the Palestinians? what about Islamophobia? (“Whataboutery”, I love that term.)
      (d) It may be happening, but I don’t care (Norman Finkelstein). – See more at:

      jon, could you please use your own archives ( here http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s?keyword=anti-Semitism ) and find some examples for us. or hops or yonah, tbkyoto, catalan … or any of the zionist posters.

      for example, would you classify yourself as a, b, c, or d. or don’t you count yourself as a commenter here? are you being silenced jon? what about hops and his (literally) hundreds of comments on the topic of antisemitism? does he count? how would you classify him?

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2015, 10:39 pm

        “are you being silenced jon?”

        Annie, I’m wondering if you grasp the basic principle at stake here. “Jon s” is not concerned because he can say what he thinks, he can, and so can the other Zionist posters, but that isn’t the issue. What bothers “Jon s” is that posters who don’t think what he thinks can say what they think. That must be wrong! It’s wrong where he lives, why isn’t it wrong here?
        And there’s also another issue. Isn’t “Jon s”, as a resident of an illegal Israeli settlement the one who should be setting the limits and shaping the discourse in the Mondo comment section? After all, he’s got so much at stake! Why, if things go sideways for the freebooters and filibusterers at Beersheba, “Jon s” will have to hop a flight back to the good oldenah Medina!

      • jon s
        July 14, 2015, 3:32 pm

        Annie, You’re right, I should have written “the reactions on the part of the editors and the dominant anti-Zionist commenters”. I’m aware of the Zionist minority here.
        And, no, in fairness , I haven’t been censored recently. Last summer I was.
        One more item connected to MW policy: I’m renewing my request to allow commenters to add pictures. This could be done under the usual rules of moderation: the picture being on-topic, inoffensive,etc.

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 3:57 pm

        “I’m renewing my request to allow commenters to add pictures.”

        Start a blog. Post all the pictures you want.

      • Mooser
        July 15, 2015, 11:24 am

        “One more item connected to MW policy: I’m renewing my request to allow commenters to add pictures.”

        Hey, it worked for Oren’s dad, why shouldn’t it work on Mondo? And just imagine the wrangles you could have with the Moderators over the content of a picture!

        And after all, isn’t is always possible to link to pictures which may be worth many words?

    • justicewillprevail
      July 13, 2015, 5:51 pm

      Right, so this claimed upsurge is more important than people telling the truth, instead of using exaggerated claims of antisemitism to further their crackpot political agendas, which is what this thread is about. Yes, you can always drag it back to these generalised claims about MW, with precious little evidence, when you can’t answer the point at issue and play your get-out-of-jail card. If you want to accuse people, at least have the honesty to be specific, instead of making vague generalised claims as if that justifies your own whataboutery. The McCarthyite schtick you and hop use doesn’t fool anybody, especially the pompous way you have of lecturing people who have far more intellectual rigour than you demonstrate.

    • Brewer
      July 13, 2015, 7:36 pm

      Jon s.
      Can you explain the extraordinary coincidental rise in anti-Semitism with Israel’s attacks on Gaza without defining the term out of existence?

      • jon s
        July 14, 2015, 3:40 pm

        Brewer, no coincidence at all. There’s certainly a connection between the rise in anti-Semitism and the conflict in Gaza. See the report I linked to in my reply to lysias, above.

      • Brewer
        July 14, 2015, 5:25 pm

        I asked if you could explain it, not point to a dubious home-baked “report” about it. A report produced by an outfit dedicated to inflating “anti-Semitism” statistics.
        The Kantor institute’s statistician is one Haim Fireberg. Here is how this worthy defines “anti-Semitism”:
        “Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, Haim Fireberg, director of Research at the Kantor Center for the Study of Contemporary European Jewry at Tel Aviv University, told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.”
        http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Anti-Zionism-is-anti-Semitism-says-TAU-director-352873

        Conflating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism is precisely what I mean by defining it out of existence for it is not possible to lump opposition to a political movement in with an irrational hatred of an ethnicity. That particular baby goes out with the bathwater.

        I must admit I am influenced by a former Israeli Minister of Education:

      • Kris
        July 15, 2015, 12:52 am

        Brewer, thanks for the link to the youtube video of Israeli Minister Shulamit Aloni’s appearance on Democracy Now!

        Ms. Aloni explains exactly what the Zionist commenters here do: in the U.S., cry “antisemitism,” and in Europe, cry “Holocaust!” in order to shut down discussion of Israel’s crimes.

        Amazing that she is so candid about, and so amused by, this manipulative, dishonest strategy.

    • Marnie
      July 14, 2015, 3:59 am

      How is it that just about every story on Mondoweiss is turned into one of your stories JonS? How the hell does antisemitism, real or imagined, trump everything else. No shame in your crying game of distract, distract, distract, distract, distract, distract, distract, distract, distract, distract……………………..

      Here’s something more important

      IN PHOTOS: Annual water fight makes a splash in Tel Aviv

      Hundreds of water-gun toting youths get drenched in water war, despite event’s cancellation.
      By Haaretz | Jul. 11, 2015 | 3:04 PM |

      “Hundreds of Israelis frolicked in Tel Aviv’s annual water fight on Friday, splashing each other with a veritable bucket-list of fluid-shooting contraptions, from the traditional water guns to more elaborate apparatuses.

      Starting in 2004, Water War Tel Aviv has been religiously observed on the first Friday of July ever since, at times drawing thousands of participants. This year, after first pushing the event to the month’s second Friday, the event’s organizers sadly announced its cancelation as they couldn’t afford the exorbitant security costs.

      However, revelers spontaneously showed up at Habima Square and completely and utterly soaked each other.”

      JonS – did you and your dears shag yourselves up to TA for the annual “Let’s Waste All The Water We Can” day, despite how parched the folks are that live in Gaza and the West Bank? I didn’t.

      I guess the one good point of the story is that the gun-toting youths ammo wasn’t lethal.

      • CigarGod
        July 14, 2015, 8:32 am

        TA Water Fight Day, or as water starved Palestinians might see it: Suck My Israeli %$#@ DAY.

      • just
        July 14, 2015, 8:54 am

        Thanks for bringing that up, Marnie. It still makes me furious. Reeks of the same sense of entitlement as the illegal settlers demanding a swim…

        “Soldiers expel 200 Palestinians from pool to allow settlers to bathe” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/soldiers-palestinians-settlers#comment-773410

        As Amira Hass wrote the other day in a good article:

        “And another thing: Without an equal division of the water resources in the country (between the river and the sea) with the Palestinians, and the immediate addition of tens of millions of cubic meters of water to Gaza – not as charity but as an obligation and to make right the consequences of decades of theft – rehabilitation will be no more than an empty slogan, because the human and environmental disaster is already there. Here.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/bethlehem-palestinian-miscarriage#sthash.099mWMBS.dpuf

        and thank you, CigarGod~ lolololol!

    • eljay
      July 14, 2015, 8:29 am

      || jon s: The reactions I’ve seen here on MW to the present increase in anti-Semitic incidents are … ||

      e) Anti-Semitism is unjust and immoral and perpetrators must be held accountable for their actions.

      So what’s your take on anti-Semitic incidents, jon s? Do you believe that the perpetrators should be held accountable for their actions? Or, given that there is no such thing as “perfect justice”, do you instead advocate “peace” and absolving the perpetrators of their actions?

      • eljay
        July 14, 2015, 8:59 am

        || eljay: … do you instead advocate “peace” and absolving the perpetrators of their actions? ||

        Correction: … do you instead advocate “peace” and absolving the perpetrators of responsibility and accountability for their actions?

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 12:15 pm

        Gosh, “Jon s”, I would think that living and driving where you do, you would know all about traction.
        I think you need some new “knobbies”. You can’t seem to get no traction.

  36. Kris
    July 13, 2015, 3:56 pm

    jon s, you left out the most prevalent reaction:

    (e) anti-Israeli sentiment/actions are NOT THE SAME AS antiSemitic sentiment/actions.

    It is Israeli policy, of course, to make sure that every Jew everywhere is associated with and hated for Israel’s crimes against humanity, and that is why you keep pushing this untrue and dangerous conflation.

    • CigarGod
      July 13, 2015, 7:13 pm

      Jon s knows scared people think less and react more. So much more efficient a way to control people. A tactic used against us in the recent past to great effect. Biggest bang for the buck.

  37. Qualtrough
    July 14, 2015, 2:27 am

    jon s – If you really want people to believe there has been an upsurge in antisemitism you should be furious that Oren appears to have lied or exaggerated his claims instead of asking us to ignore it.

    • CigarGod
      July 14, 2015, 8:36 am

      And, jon s, if you really care about reducing levels of a.s., you might like to dedicate yourself to condemning the falsifying [email protected]%&.,

      • Mooser
        July 14, 2015, 12:18 pm

        “And, jon s, if you really care about reducing levels of a.s., you might like to dedicate yourself to condemning the falsifying [email protected]%&.,”

        Heck, no, “Cigar God” (who, no doubt, reclines upon a “cigar divan”), “Jon s” can’t do that! It would be an offense against Tribal Unity!

  38. Brewer
    July 14, 2015, 7:00 pm

    The new anti-Semitism:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJN9fnt0rpw

    It ain’t Brooklyn.

  39. traintosiberia
    July 16, 2015, 12:06 am

    This background ( Kahane in the synagogue that got bombed ) got exposed .One wonders how many unexpsoed lies are out there that support the Zionist narratives.

    Tradition informs that the lies and distortions constitute the bulk of the claims made by Zionist from 1917 till now incluidng Iran-P5+1 negotiations.

    • hophmi
      July 16, 2015, 1:16 pm

      “This background ( Kahane in the synagogue that got bombed ) got exposed .”

      No one was hiding it. It just doesn’t happen to be very relevant. In fact, it looks very much like (yet another) example of how anti-Zionists excuse acts of antisemitism.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 16, 2015, 1:58 pm

        No one is excusing antisemitism. It just doesn’t happen to be very relevant to the exposure. In fact, it looks very much like (yet another) example of how Zionists excuse or ignore jewish terrorists.

      • Mooser
        July 18, 2015, 11:42 pm

        ” In fact, it looks very much like (yet another) example of how anti-Zionists excuse acts of antisemitism.”

        Gosh Hophmi, what do you plan to do about it? Seems to me this problem could easily have been foreseen, especially by somebody as concerned about anti-semitism as you are.
        So what do you plan to do about it?

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