Bon Jovi’s Tel Aviv gig is upstaged by Roger Waters’s incantation of Israeli victims, including Dawabshe boy

Activism
on 111 Comments

Bon Jovi will be playing Israel in a matter of hours. Forty thousand fans expected, in Tel Aviv. But the news is Roger Waters’s stirring letter to the group, posted at Salon, explaining their moral failure in playing Israel.

Rolling Stone is covering the interchange between the musicians. Very sympathetic coverage of Waters, and a great headline:

“You stand shoulder to shoulder/With the settler who burned the baby,” Pink Floyd co-founder writes

The politics of the issue are surely changing when Salon and Rolling Stone stand with Roger Waters. And notice that Waters invokes such victims of Israeli wanton violence as the four Bakr boys on the beach in Gaza, little Ali Dawabshe in Duma on the West Bank two months ago, and Salem Shamaly, killed by an Israeli sniper while looking for family members in Shejaiyeh. Waters is doing more to keep the Duma murders in American consciousness than anyone else.
Yediot reports that Jon Bon Jovi is thrilled to see Israel for the first time.

“I insisted that Israel must be on our list and it happened!”

Asked about former Pink Floyd singer Roger Waters and his controversial boycott campaign to get other singers to nix concerts in Israel, Bon Jovi says: “Yes, I heard about that but it doesn’t interest me. I told my managers to give one simple answer: That I’m coming to Israel and I’m excited to come.”
Here is Roger Waters’s letter, from Salon (links to news sources at the site):

Dear Jon Bon Jovi, David Bryan, and Tico Torres,

Often in the past I have written detailed, and sometimes even persuasive, letters to colleagues in the music business, encouraging them not to give succor to the Israeli government’s apartheid policies by performing in Israel. Having read Jon’s comments last week in Yedioth Ahronoth, I won’t waste my time drawing parallels with Apartheid South Africa and the moral stand that so many artists took then and that thousands are taking now in the face of decades of Israeli oppression of Palestinians.So the die is cast, you are determined to proceed with your gig in Tel Aviv on October 3. You are making your stand.

You stand shoulder to shoulder

With the settler who burned the baby

With the bulldozer driver who crushed Rachel Corrie

With the soldier who shot the soccer player’s feet to bits

With the sailor who shelled the boys on the beach

With the sniper who killed the kid in the green shirt

And the one who emptied his clip into the 13-year-old girl

And the Minister of Justice who called for genocide

You had a chance to stand

On the side of justice

With the pilot who refused to bomb refugee camps

With the teenager who chose eight prison terms over army service

With the prisoner who fasted for 266 days until freedom

With the doctor banned from entry for saving lives

With the farmer who was cut down marching to the wall

With the legless child growing up in the rubble

And the 550 others who won’t grow up at all

Because of the missiles and tank shells and bullets we sent

The dead can’t remind you of the crimes you’ve ignored. But, lest we forget, “To stand by silent and indifferent is the greatest crime of all.”

Roger Waters

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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111 Responses

  1. Mary T
    October 3, 2015, 3:04 pm

    Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Phil. Masterful letter, Roger.

  2. pabelmont
    October 3, 2015, 3:33 pm

    Yes, a wonderful letter. It would be improved (our “side” would find useful) the same or a longer list of horrors each with a URL to the story.

    NOTE: In SALON, there WERE URLs but they disappeared here, above.

    A cumulative list, with dates, brief comments, and URLs:

    8/2015 Israeli PM says “no peace on my watch” URL(NYT): xxx
    etc.

    (often): Israelis complain that Palestinians teach their kids to hate; URL-List
    (often): Israelis give statements showing they hate Palestinians URL-list

    Kate does this every week, but I’m after a resource that anyone could read at a glance and look to the URLs for details.

  3. JLewisDickerson
    October 3, 2015, 8:11 pm

    RE: “So the die is cast, you are determined to proceed with your gig in Tel Aviv on October 3. You are making your stand. You stand shoulder to shoulder
    With the settler who burned the baby
    With the bulldozer driver who crushed Rachel Corrie
    With the soldier who shot the soccer player’s feet to bits
    With the sailor who shelled the boys on the beach . . .
    ~ Waters’ letter to Bon Jovi

    AN EARLY AUTUMN EVENING’S MUSICAL INTERLUDE, proudly brought to you by the purveyors of new Über-Xtreme Ziocaine™ Ultra CR (Controlled Release) Transdermal Patch: Let The Good Times Roll!℠

    I only ask of God
    He won’t let me be indifferent to the suffering.
    That the very dried up death doesn’t find me
    Empty and without having given my everything.

    I only ask of God
    He won’t let me be indifferent to the wars.
    It is a big monster which treads hard
    On the poor innocence of people.
    It is a big monster which treads hard
    On the poor innocence of people. . .

    ■ VIDEO: I Only Ask Of God (Video Official) – Outlandish “Con Letra”

    Outlandish
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    [EXCERPT] Outlandish is a hip-hop music group based in Denmark. Formed in 1997, it consists of Isam Bachiri (born in Denmark and of Moroccan background), Waqas Ali Qadri (born in Denmark and of Pakistani background), and Lenny Martinez (born in Honduras and of Cuban and Honduran descent). All three members are religious, with Isam and Waqas being Muslims and Lenny being Catholic. . .
    SOURCE – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlandish

    ■ VIDEO: Solo le Pido a Dios (I Only Ask Of God) – Gabriel Meyer Halevy (an Argentine-Israeli musician) – The Human Project

    Gabriel Meyer Halevy – http://www.gabrielmeyerhalevy.com/en/home

    Gabriel Meyer Halevy | Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/gabrielmeyerhalevy

    The Human Project – http://www.thehumanproject.us/

    The Human Project | Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/thehumanprojectuk

  4. ckg
    October 4, 2015, 1:45 pm

    Quoting Times of Israel, “Jon Bon Jovi dedicates song ‘We Don’t Run’ to Israel”.

    Quoting Moon Zappa, “Barf out. Gag me with a spoon.”

  5. Citizen
    October 4, 2015, 3:19 pm

    Great, moving letter by Waters. Bon Jovi’s not interested. He’s just excited to go play in Israel. I wonder who his agent is….

  6. Citizen
    October 4, 2015, 3:28 pm

    Bon Jovi’s personal manager is Irving Azoff, known in the business as “the poison dwarf.” Reference is to both his side and demeanor.

  7. jon s
    October 4, 2015, 3:43 pm

    Not 40,000, the crowd was 54,000:
    http://www.haaretz.com/life/music-theater/.premium-1.678805
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adE8oTC34zw

    It would be easy to respond to Roger Waters in the same style:
    You stand shoulder-to-shoulder
    With the jihadi terrorists
    With Hamas and Hizbullah
    With the suicide/homicide bombers
    With the Anti-Semites

    and so on…

    • oldgeezer
      October 4, 2015, 3:54 pm

      Yes it would be easy to copy. Originality takes an extra effort. Pretty much like Teva.

      Only one of the two sides are colonists oppressing the original inhabitants.

      Both sides perpetrate wrongs in my mind but the side with the power exercises it’s agency to perpetrate further crimes against humanity while crying before the world at every incident where the victims fight back.

      The moral highground in the middle east is around the height of an anthill and it is one piece of high ground israel has avoided at all costs.

      • michelle
        October 4, 2015, 5:42 pm

        .
        the side with the power has the power to stop
        the side without the power is forced to interact
        if one can call playing on the beach at a family get together
        and such as that interacting with the agressor
        .
        G-d Bless
        .

      • oldgeezer
        October 4, 2015, 5:46 pm

        @michelle

        Indeed. Thank you.

      • catalan
        October 4, 2015, 9:58 pm

        “And you’re an Israeli living as an Israeli in a town (Be’er Sheva) in Occupied Palestine. – ”
        The state of Palestine has been recognized by more than 100 countries. It has observer status in the United Nations and diplomatic missions. It is a member of many international organizations; this state does not include Beersheba. If you don’t believe me simple look at the map of the area of the United Nations. If that doesn’t suffice check other maps made by countries recognizing Palestine, such as Jordan or Norway. None include Beersheba.

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 2:00 am

        @ catalan “The state of Palestine has been recognized by more than 100 countries. It has observer status in the United Nations and diplomatic missions.”

        So Palestine is a recognized state! Glad we got that sorted.

        .. maps made by countries recognizing Palestine, such as Jordan or Norway. None include Beersheba” …. and;

        None recognize it as Israeli because it wasn’t proclaimed as Israeli in the Israeli Government’s plea for recognition and; it has never been annexed to Israel and; it was illegal to acquire or recognize territory acquired by war by 1933, certainly by 1945 and most assuredly illegal by the time Israel agreed to adhere to the UN Charter and International Law on May 15th 1948

      • eljay
        October 5, 2015, 9:01 am

        || catalan @ October 4, 2015, 9:58 pm ||

        Beersheba / Be’er Sheva

        … In 1947, the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) proposed that Beersheba be included within the Jewish state in their partition plan for Palestine.[22] However, when the UN’s Ad Hoc Committee revised the plan, they moved Beersheva to the Arab state on account of it being primarily Arab.[22]

        During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War … Yigal Allon proposed the conquest of Beersheba,[23] which was approved by Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. According to Israeli historian Benny Morris, he ordered the “conquest of Beersheba, occupation of outposts around it, [and] demolition of most of the town.”[24] …

        Beersheba / Be’er Sheva: Occupied Palestine.

      • catalan
        October 5, 2015, 9:03 am

        “None recognize it as Israeli because it wasn’t proclaimed as Israeli in the Israeli Government – ”
        The maps made by the UN Cartography Committee show Beersheba in Israel. So do those made by Russia, China, and almost every other country.
        Let’s go by that.

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 10:37 am

        @ catalan “The maps made by the UN Cartography Committee show Beersheba in Israel.”

        Uh huh. Link please …. thx

        ” So do those made by Russia, China, and almost every other country.
        Let’s go by that.”

        Uh huh. Let’s look at your evidence .. thx

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 11:27 am

        Official UN Map of Israel http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/israel.pdf

        The designations employed and the presentation of material on this
        map do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the
        part of the Secretariat of the United Nations concerning the legal
        status of any country, territory, city or area or of its authorities or
        concerning the delimitation of its frontiers or boundaries

        Official Australian Map of Israel http://smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/advice/Israel_Gaza_Strip_and_West_Bank

        Nomenclature and territorial boundaries may not necessarily reflect Australian Government policy

        Official US Map of Israel http://www.state.gov/p/nea/ci/is/

        boundary representation is not necessarily authoritative

    • Mooser
      October 4, 2015, 4:03 pm

      “You stand…/….the Anti-Semites”

      Uh, “Jon s” I want to get one thing clear. Are the things you mentioned the excuse for the things Roger Waters mentioned, or are they the reason for them?

      I don’t quite get what the relation is between the things. Could you explain? And most fascinating, what are the “And so on”s? Is it like “ad infinitum” or something?

    • jon s
      October 4, 2015, 4:05 pm

      Anf if you perform in the USA you’re shoulder-to-shoulder
      With the bombers of a wedding in Yemen
      With the bombers of a hospital in Afghanistan
      With the imprisonment without trial of the Guantanamo prisoners

      and so on…

      • just
        October 4, 2015, 4:08 pm

        And yet you choose to live on land belonging to someone else.

        Go figure.

        As for Roger Waters~ bs, Jon. Bon Jovi is “pop”. Fade away. Roger Waters is a man for all time and for all seasons. A real human being.

        Your shtick is boring and oh, so wrong. I’m sad that you claim to be a “teacher”.

      • Mooser
        October 4, 2015, 4:19 pm

        “Anf if you perform in the USA you’re…/…trial of the Guantanamo prisoners “

        I’m sorry, “Jon s” is there some list of performers Mondo is demanding must play the US in spite of those things? I’m sure many performers won’t play the US.

      • Kris
        October 4, 2015, 4:19 pm

        Really, jon s? Is there a BDS movement against the U.S. by any of our victims? Please provide links; I haven’t heard of it yet.

        Obviously, if BDS has been called against the U.S., everyone should honor it. It would be wonderful if the U.S. and Israel were boycotted, sanctioned, and entirely isolated. Maybe they would decide to start honoring international law.

      • echinococcus
        October 4, 2015, 5:43 pm

        Play the US? Do you see many foreigners who do that in these last years anyway?

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 1:53 am

        @ jon s “Anf if you perform in the USA you’re shoulder-to-shoulder
        With the bombers of a wedding in Yemen
        With the bombers of a hospital in Afghanistan
        With the imprisonment without trial of the Guantanamo prisoners”

        Where can I sign on to your protest?

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 4:13 am

        @ jon s
        “Anf if you perform in the USA you’re shoulder-to-shoulder
        With the bombers of a wedding in Yemen
        With the bombers of a hospital in Afghanistan
        With the imprisonment without trial of the Guantanamo prisoners”

        They’d be some of the famed ‘shared values’ I guess

      • amigo
        October 6, 2015, 9:11 am

        “Anf if you perform in the USA you’re shoulder-to-shoulder
        With the bombers of a wedding in Yemen
        With the bombers of a hospital in Afghanistan
        With the imprisonment without trial of the Guantanamo prisoners – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/overshadowed-incantation-including#comment-154822” Jon S

        But , but , Israel takes 3.5 billion dollars annually from these bombers of hospitals and weddings.

        And so on.

    • just
      October 4, 2015, 4:13 pm
      • jon s
        October 4, 2015, 5:39 pm

        Just, I choose to live on land that is part of my people’s historic homeland, and, as you know, I acknowledge that it’s also the Palestinian homeland. That’s the situation, that’s what needs to be settled.
        As a teacher, I try to do my best to remain faithful to the values that I believe in. I’m sorry if that makes you sad.

      • echinococcus
        October 4, 2015, 5:45 pm

        “Your people’s historic homeland”?
        You must be insane.
        Not the kind of irrational belief allowable in a teacher of history.
        You should be teaching religion. Only.

      • oldgeezer
        October 4, 2015, 5:55 pm

        Really jon? What is your family history? And your neighboues? Did they live there a hundred years ago? 500? What entitles you to disposses my generation, my fatheror grandfather?

        I phrase it that way as you may have aconnection but the majority are east european and north american theives.

        As an atheist all i can say is dont ask for respect for your religious beleifs when yoylu subscribeto rank immorality. Suck it up sunshine

      • just
        October 4, 2015, 6:19 pm

        @ Jon’s “For the most part I don’t read the Bible for historical accuracy. I read it –and other Jewish texts – for the great stories, for the fantastic cast of characters, for the human insights, for the moral dilemmas, for the quality of the prose and the poetry.

        For example, the story of the Exodus from Egypt, for which there’s no real historical or archaeological evidence. Yet it’s a great story, a nation of slaves emerging from bondage to freedom, an inspiration for oppressed people for centuries. That’s why so many Jews, including non-orthodox, conduct Passover seders and retell the story every year.”

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/recent-comments#sthash.o5P44OU8.dpuf

        You’re living a supremacist fairy tale and teaching it to kids. You want a “story”?

        Here’s reality:

        “Israel intends to legalize five West Bank outposts containing settlers who committed violence against Palestinians” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/containing-committed-palestinians#sthash.syx2fiXb.dpuf

        and here:

        “Eid in the rubble”
        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/eid-in-the-rubble

        and here:

        “Al-Aqsa mosque belongs to Muslims’ is rallying cry for widespread protest” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/israel-palestine#sthash.OmxKEU8f.dpuf

        and here:

        “Facing Reality: Jewish terrorism is no longer limited to just a few bad seeds” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/israel-palestine#sthash.OmxKEU8f.dpuf

        and here:

        “Celebrating Eid al-Adha in Gaza”
        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/celebrating-adha-gaza

        and here:

        “Wanted: The killer of Hadeel al-Hashlamoun”
        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/wanted-hadeel-hashlamoun

        Et Cetera Ad Nauseam…………….

      • just
        October 4, 2015, 6:32 pm

        You are moved to live in another person’s land and treat them worse than slaves. (“I choose to live on land that is part of my people’s historic homeland”), yet you acknowledge that “For the most part I don’t read the Bible for historical accuracy. I read it –and other Jewish texts – for the great stories, for the fantastic cast of characters, for the human insights, for the moral dilemmas, for the quality of the prose and the poetry”?

        Seriously? Are you trying to be one of the “fantastic cast” in your horrible justification of present day genocide fable? I remember you lambasting a fellow traveler recently:

        “As I said, it saddens me that a person raised as a Jew rejects her heritage, and is left with nothing but hatred. You seem to have internalized anti-Jewish stereotypes (“full court Jewish establishment”) and tropes (“murderous rampages of the henchmen of Mordecai against men women and children…”- totally false, read the Megillah.) I’m non-Orthodox, and left-wing, but I still find much I can relate to in the Passover story. The central theme is to remember : that we were slaves in Egypt , and were liberated, and the memory should be very up-close and personal – we should all consider ourselves as having been liberated from bondage. In the Bible itself we are told repeatedly to remember the oppression in Egypt for a purpose- so as not to do the same to others. In Exodus (22:20): And you shall not mistreat a stranger, nor shall you oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.And again: (Exodus 23:9): And you shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the feelings of the stranger, since you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Also in Deuteronomy (10:19): You shall love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. We recite the plagues in unison, taking a drop of wine out of our cup with each one. Don Yitzhak Abarbenel (1437-1508) interpreted this custom as reflecting the idea that the joy in our salvation –as expressed in the full cup of wine- is reduced because of the sufferings of the Egyptian people, who are our fellow human beings. This point reminds me of the Midrash according to which God rebuked the angels for wanting to sing when the Egyptians were drowning in the Red Sea : “The works of my hands are drowning in the sea, and you wish to sing praises?!? “(Talmud Tractate Megillah 10b). In other words, Danaa, there’s a lot to discuss and a lot to learn, while reaffirming and continuing our people’s traditions and heritage. You can go to the gym any other day.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s?keyword=passover#sthash.tI0OeYxu.dpuf

        You’re two sides of the same coin.

        Disingenuous to the end.

      • Kris
        October 4, 2015, 6:39 pm

        @jon s: “I choose to live on land that is part of my people’s historic homeland, and, as you know, I acknowledge that it’s also the Palestinian homeland. That’s the situation, that’s what needs to be settled.”

        Thanks, jon s, now I understand. I’m going to book my flight to Sweden right away. There is a farm there that I want, and I can get the weapons that I need to take it away from the immigrants who have been living there. Their roots are in South Asia, if you can believe it. My family was in Sweden eons ago. Let’s not even get started on whose DNA is Swedish. (spoiler alert: mine)

        Sure, these untermenchen think Sweden is now their “homeland,” and I can understand that they could feel that way. That’s the situation, and that’s what needs to be settled. Meanwhile, they can get out peacefully, or they can get hurt. Their choice.

      • just
        October 4, 2015, 7:04 pm

        Well done, Kris.

        (Wanna make a bet that Jon has no DNA from his “homeland” that has only been proclaimed since 1948? It was Palestine then, and it is Palestine now.)

      • Mooser
        October 4, 2015, 7:47 pm

        Just, I choose to live on land that is part of my people’s “historic homeland” No. 75

        “Jon s” it’s just as stupid and untrue as the first time you said it. You talk about stealing land in Palestine like you were choosing a suburban town.

      • Mooser
        October 4, 2015, 7:50 pm

        “As a teacher, I try to do my best to remain faithful to the values that I believe in.”

        I’m sure you have never falsified an attendance sheet, or defrauded a school for office supplies. Other than that, what the fuck is this “As a teacher”? Say, two can play at that: “As a Jew, I think you’re full of crap”

      • eljay
        October 4, 2015, 8:45 pm

        || jon s: Just, I choose to live on land that is part of my people’s historic homeland … ||

        (Mandate) Palestine was and is the homeland of all Jewish and non-Jewish people living in and up to n generations removed from it.

        Israel is the homeland of all Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis living in and up to n generations removed from it (incl. ethnically-cleansed refugees).

        Neither Israel nor (Mandate) Palestine was or is the homeland (or “historic homeland”) of all people in the world who happen to be Jewish.

        And you’re an Israeli living as an Israeli in a town (Be’er Sheva) in Occupied Palestine.

      • talknic
        October 4, 2015, 9:42 pm

        @ jon s “I choose to live on land that is part of my people’s historic homeland, and, as you know, I acknowledge that it’s also the Palestinian homeland. That’s the situation, that’s what needs to be settled.”

        If you’re not living in Israeli territory you help ‘settle’ the matter by f^&king off back to Israel and suing the Israeli Government and Zionist Federation for deceiving you

        “As a teacher, I try to do my best to remain faithful to the values that I believe in. I’m sorry if that makes you sad”

        As a teacher you should be interested in facts. Fact is, Israel has not legally acquired any territory outside the borders it proclaimed May 15th 1948.

      • bryan
        October 5, 2015, 4:44 am

        “I read [the bible] –and other Jewish texts – for the great stories, for the fantastic cast of characters, for the human insights, for the moral dilemmas, for the quality of the prose and the poetry”?

        If those are the things you enjoy reading, Jon, I suggest you put away your childish habits and try some of the really great adult literature that is available in the secular world – Homer, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Thackeray, Dickens, Dostoevsky all beat the bible hands down on all the qualities you claim to admire. The work of of a committee, the Bible is a hotchpotch, lacking a unified plot, meandering, repetitive, self-contradictory, hectoring, belittling of the reader and all too often utterly implausible.

      • YoniFalic
        October 5, 2015, 9:07 am

        I had to work hard to get all such Zionist propaganda out of my head.

        Shlomo Sand makes it quite clear that homeland in the sense that @jon s uses it is quite modern.

        It is quite clear that racist E. Europeans like @jon s and my family use this propaganda concept as justification for 1800s style genocidal colonialism in which European invaders move out or destroy the natives and then move in Europeans and favored lackeys.

        People that spout such propaganda are contemptible, and I freely admit that I was once one of those contemptible people. I have one mitigating circumstance. I was heavily indoctrinated in the Israeli school system, which does not teach history of Jews but propaganda to legitimize modern Jewish crimes.

        Christianity has no homeland. Neither does Judaism.

        Just like Christianity today. Judaism was a massively proselytizing religion in antiquity through the Middle Ages.

        The Book of Esther makes the point clear with respect to Mesopotamia.

        Josephus, Philo, Dio Cassius all make the same point with respect to territories inside and outside the Roman Empire. By the 2nd century CE the worldwide Judaic population was primarily descended from non-Judean converts.

        Zionists used to use the conversion of Phoenicians to Judaism to justify the plan to steal Palestine and destroy or evict the native population.

        Zionist intellectual Nahum Slouschz, who was aware that Greco-Roman Judeans never left Palestine but remained there and converted first to Christianity and then to Islam, wrote Hébraeo-Phéniciens et Judéo-Berbères in support of the theory of Phoenician conversion, but Zionists later tried to bury such academic works because by vile Zionist logic this particular theory meant Zionists should focus on stealing Lebanon instead of stealing Palestine.

        In any case, Patrick Geary nails the fundamental stupidity of @jon s’ claims.

        Group names are reused by unrelated groups. Geary’s observation about Goths and Franks applies just as much to the group name “Jew”.

        Modern Jews have no ancestral connection whatsoever to Palestine. Only Palestinian natives descend from Greco-Roman Judeans. @jon s is simply a racist genocide-supporting invader, interloper, and thief. I left Israel because I had no desire to be such a vile person.

        Just to put the coup de grace on @jon s’ stupid evil ideas, I reiterate that Rabbinic Judaism is a Mesopotamian religion with far less connection to Palestine than Christianity has.

        Jesus was Palestinian as were his first followers. They all practiced Judean Temple Judaism, a religion that was completely shattered by the 3rd century as Seth Schwartz points out in Imperialism and Jewish Society.

        Rabbinic Judaism develops wholly in the Diaspora with no connection to Palestine. For this reason, the Babylonian and not the Jerusalem Talmud is authoritative. Rabbinic Judaism uses the Babylonian calendar and not the Palestinian calendar. Rabbinic Judaism uses Babylonian synagogue liturgy and not Palestinian liturgy. Rabbinic Judaism uses the Babylonian cycle of Torah reading and not the Palestinian cycle of Torah reading.

        @jon s. is a deluded ignoramus (or liar) that in his ignorance (or dishonesty) supports some of the most hideous crimes in history.

      • yonah fredman
        October 5, 2015, 11:55 am

        bryan, I suggest that you read Harold Bloom, an expert on literature, and what he has to say about the Original Testament. Read the Book of J and then come back and tell us how you are smarter than Bloom and can tell us that the Bible is a hodgepodge.

      • yonah fredman
        October 5, 2015, 12:08 pm

        The question whether the Jewish connection to Jerusalem and the land of Israel are relevant to the conflict regarding ownership of the land is a valid critique. But to assert that there is no Jewish connection to the land is propaganda and falsehood. How many laws of the Torah deal specifically with the land of israel? How many statements regarding the closeness to God of the land of Israel exist in the Babylonian Talmud? How many times a day does a religious Jew mention Jerusalem or the land of israel? These inconvenient facts are deleted by the anti Zionist propagandists in the comment sections here at mw. There are somewhere between 40 and 45% of world Jews living today in Israel. Their presence there is not an accident or a fluke or purely as a result of the design of imperialists. History took some terrible turns that led to the birth of the modern impulse to move to the land and Jerusalem. I value the enlightenment and wonder how the enlightenment and the nationalistic aspects of judaism can coexist and whether the darker impulses of the conflict over the land will lead the Jews towards survival or permanent war. These are valid and important questions. but to deny that a large part of Judaism emphasizes the land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem is just pure poppycock. Certainly if Europe circa 1881 to 1945 had resembled America circa 2015 the development of secular trends in Judaism would have been very different from the facts that developed as a result of the sickness that Europe developed and acted upon. We can speculate what an ideal development of history would have looked like from a secularist point of view. But just look at the Jewish prayer book and tell me with a straight face that Judaism has no connection to Jerusalem and the land. That’s nonsense.

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 12:53 pm

        “How many times a day does a religious Jew mention Jerusalem or the land of israel?” “Yonah”

        How much is each mention worth? A dunam, an acre? A Palestinian life?
        Amazing, just amazing what you think Jewish prayers are good for.

      • eljay
        October 5, 2015, 12:56 pm

        || yonah fredman: … There are somewhere between 40 and 45% of world Jews living today in Israel. Their presence there is not an accident or a fluke … ||

        No, it’s not. You can thank the injustice and immorality of Zionism, Jewish terrorism, the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population from their homes and lands and the religiously-based “Law of Return” for that.

        || … But just look at the Jewish prayer book and tell me with a straight face that Judaism has no connection to Jerusalem and the land. That’s nonsense. ||

        Okay, Judaism has a “connection to Jerusalem and the land”. So what? That doesn’t magically transform either (Mandate) Palestine (the homeland of all non-Jewish and Jewish (Mandate) Palestinians) or present-day Israel (the homeland of all non-Jewish and Jewish Israelis) into the “historic homeland” of any person anywhere in the world who:
        – undergoes a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – is descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

      • bryan
        October 5, 2015, 1:07 pm

        @yonah fred “bryan, I suggest that you read Harold Bloom, an expert on literature, and what he has to say about the Original Testament. Read the Book of J and then come back and tell us how you are smarter than Bloom and can tell us that the Bible is a hodgepodge.”

        I haven’t read this but I have been put off by the reviews on Amazon – e.g. “Dr. Harold Bloom writes like a jaded old professor who is world weary”… ” That Bloom makes the claims intended to shake our faith to the core without any proof in a book (and I’m assuming in a classroom) is frightening ” …. “It is surprising that one so learned about Shakespeare can be so pontifical about a literary masterpiece so solidly accepted in both the religious and literary worlds for the past 400 years. It is also distressing that so many exciting New Testament scholarly works published in the past 70 years were ignored by Professor Bloom. I conclude that for me, Bloom is profoundly knowledgeable about Shakespeare, but not very helpful about the Greek New Testament and its English translations in the past 400 years.” ( see http://www.amazon.com/The-Shadow-Great-Rock-Appreciation/product-reviews/0300187947/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending) Seems to me that all Bloom is saying about the King James Bible is that William Tyndale’s translation is a vast improvement on the original – so I don’t understand how you can possibly be claiming, on that basis, that the original Old Testament is a great work of literature.

      • Sibiriak
        October 5, 2015, 2:43 pm

        yonah fredman: … to assert that there is no Jewish connection to the land is propaganda and falsehood. How many laws of the Torah deal specifically with the land of israel? How many statements regarding the closeness to God of the land of Israel exist in the Babylonian Talmud? How many times a day does a religious Jew mention Jerusalem or the land of israel?
        —————————–

        I have no argument with those points.

        The problem came, though, when Zionists took that psychological/religious/spiritual “connection” to the land and translated it into a RIGHT to physically invade it, impose exclusive political sovereignty over it, squash the local inhabitants political rights, and ultimately displace and kill large numbers of them and subject the remainder to unending statelessness and oppression.

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 3:45 pm

        “bryan, I suggest that you read Harold Bloom, an expert on literature, and what he has to say about the Original Testament.” “Yonah”

        Does Bloom say the Original Testament functions as a land deed, and requires non-Jewish people to obey it?

        You know Yonah, this is all so dumb. I mean Zionism, that is. Why didn’t the Zionists “briar patch” Palestine?
        Say it was the last place on earth Jews wanted to go? (‘Please, don’t throw me in the briar patch!’)
        I bet that would have worked, they’d be herding us into the place in droves. Oh well, too late now. I guess we can go on to the story of the “tar baby”

      • RoHa
        October 5, 2015, 8:15 pm

        Yonah, Christians also have a religious connection to Palestine, and Mulslims have a religious connection to Mecca and Medina. But these connections do not give any rights of residence. They do not make Palestine a Christian “homeland”, or the Hejaz a Muslim “homeland”. And that is the key point. The claim that Palestine somehow belongs to all Jews is a daft as the claims of the Crusaders. And look what happened to them.

      • yonah fredman
        October 6, 2015, 4:04 am

        Mooser- “Jews to Palestine” was common graffiti in 1930’s Poland.

      • yonah fredman
        October 6, 2015, 4:25 am

        This discussion began with Jon S. declaring Israel as his Jewish homeland and others disparaging his statement. I don’t feel comfortable with the word “homeland”. It has too many implications of specific rights that may (or may not) supercede the rights of others. but let the discussion exist within reasonable bounds, which includes awareness of the facts, which includes a recognition of the actual content of traditional Judaism.
        Jewish ritual life placed Jerusalem and Israel as a certain focus, mentioned constantly. It wasn’t the only focus, but it certainly was a focus. I accept that this has no heft in a court of law, but there is nothing unnatural or surprising for the course of history as it meandered from 1881 to 1948 to result in a movement that built upon the natural affinity of the Jews for that specific piece of land and to make that the focus of their historical stand: a historical awakening of the Jews to their evolution to their destiny (or danger). And I accept that this is not a process that leads to happiness of the people who were living in Palestine previous to 1881, that it involved a decision not dependent on the approval of those living there for centuries or longer, but it was an act of will, that if anything asked for help from the western powers to help them impose their will on those living there. and i wonder if it is my age and closeness to people who would most probably never have been born if not for
        Zionism (that is: their parents would have perished in Europe without that exit available to them) that I cannot dismiss the Jewish urge for self emancipation on that specific spot despite the known consequences. So in my case I think the flow of the history of the 20th century justified Zionism and now maybe Zionism has to justify itself and it cannot without invoking the darker aspects of nationalism and this is very dangerous and scary and sad. (But the impulse towards survival and rejuvenation if it is combined with a Zeev Sternhell dose of respect for the enlightenment has the potential of being a positive movement. Just right now it seems that Bibi’s unenlightened nationalism is the real face of
        Zionism today and Zeev Sternhell is but a lone voice in the wilderness.)

      • Mooser
        October 6, 2015, 12:05 pm

        “Mooser- “Jews to Palestine” was common graffiti in 1930’s Poland.”

        Exactly, Yonah! You can see that I am right.
        Yes, we should have kept saying that Palestine was the one place we didn’t want to go! Jeez, we have a whole buncha Jewish thought which goes that way: God kicked us out, and we should stay out still He brings us back. (What, you think God needs your[or any man’s] help to accomplish that? I trust Him to pick the time and the method, and I’m sure it doesn’t involve stealing land and killing children).
        They would have chartered luxury liners to bring us back to Palestine. Oh well, too late for that now.

      • Mooser
        October 6, 2015, 12:11 pm

        ” I don’t feel comfortable with the word “homeland”. It has too many implications of specific rights that may (or may not) supercede the rights of others. “

        Well then: TELL “Jon s” ABOUT IT!! He’s the one who is putting it into practice.

        But I get it, “Yonah” You don’t feel comfortable, so the rest of us have to stop “disparaging” that totally bullshit Zionist “Homeland” (Homeland? Mean Gott!) concept? Not going to happen. “Jon s” thinks he has the right to kill other people in the name of the Jews over that “Homeland” GO TALK TO HIM!

      • Mooser
        October 6, 2015, 1:22 pm

        “stealing land or killing children…”

        Anybody’s children:

        “And you shall not let any of your children pass through the fire to Molech, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.” Leviticus 18:21

    • talknic
      October 5, 2015, 1:49 am

      @ jon s

      “It would be easy to respond to Roger Waters in the same style”

      Indeed, if he did actually
      Stand shoulder-to-shoulder
      With the jihadi terrorists
      With Hamas and Hizbullah
      With the suicide/homicide bombers
      With the Anti-Semites

      Please show us how or where he does …. thx … we’ll wait

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 11:11 am

        jon s “And if you perform in the USA…”

        Wow, he must hate the “special relationship”!

      • jon s
        October 5, 2015, 3:47 pm

        bryan,

        Homer, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Thackeray, Dickens, Dostoevsky –

        I’ll make a note to check them out, whoever they are.

      • catalan
        October 5, 2015, 4:15 pm

        “I’ll make a note to check them out, whoever they are. -” Jon
        You Israelis are so ignorant. Take my advice and start with Stephen King; these old guys can get excruciating. Especially the Russians.

      • amigo
        October 5, 2015, 4:50 pm

        “Homer, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Thackeray, Dickens, Dostoevsky –

        I’ll make a note to check them out, whoever they are.
        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/overshadowed-incantation-including#comment-154822” Jon S

        I am surprised you never heard of Homer.He seems to know you quite well.

        “Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another.” Homer

    • Marnie
      October 5, 2015, 5:05 am

      As always JonS – thanks for the laughs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • jon s
        October 5, 2015, 4:18 pm

        Seriously, Bryan, one does not preclude the other. I can read those great authors and also the Bible and other Jewish texts. It’s not a competition.

        A little over a week ago, on Yom Kippur, I participated in a reading and study of the Book of Jonah, which is traditionally read on that day. A short book, four brief chapters, 48 verses in all, and so rich in points to discuss, from various angles. It’s something I feel a connection to, and enjoy being part of.

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 4:59 pm

        ” It’s something I feel a connection to, and enjoy being part of.”

        And oh, won’t you be daring and liberal and classic Israeli Left when you point out the analogies between Job and the suffering of the Palestinians.

      • bryan
        October 6, 2015, 8:07 am

        OK Jon s – I merely suggested you extend your reading list into areas you aknowledge as uncharted territories because you claimed to admire “great stories…. the fantastic cast of characters… human insights, … moral dilemmas,…. the quality of the prose and the poetry”. If as it turns out you are only looking for brevity and contentious and provocative talking points then you stick with Jonah. If you prefer fairy stories about vengeful gods who summon up storms and cause trees to grow and miraculous fables about people who survive three days inside a fish then just carry on, or see if you aren’t ready now for Winnie the Pooh, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory or the Jungle Book, all of which credible characters and coherent plots, but also provide easy and amusing reading.

    • catalan
      October 5, 2015, 8:59 am

      “None recognize it as Israeli because it wasn’t proclaimed as Israeli in the Israeli Government – ”
      Actually the maps produced by the United Nations; China; Russia; India; and Brazil all show Beersheba in Israel. So do those made by the European Union and Australia.
      Outside of you and a few other anonymous commenters, the partition plan is of academic interest only.

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 10:39 am

        @ catalan

        “Actually the maps produced by the United Nations; China; Russia; India; and Brazil all show Beersheba in Israel

        So do those made by the European Union and Australia.”

        Links to official maps please .. thx

      • catalan
        October 5, 2015, 10:51 am

        Talknic, there are thousands of maps; here is one; or just go to any site of a foreign ministry; there is no debate about this issue at all.

        http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/mideastr.pdf

        Can you show one map made in the last 20 years by any government or international organization which does NOT show Beersheba being in Israel?

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 11:34 am

        @ catalan

        ” .. there are thousands of maps; here is one;
        http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/mideastr.pdf

        Very clever…

        What’s it say there on th’ map?

        The boundaries and names shown and the designations used on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations

        “Can you show one map made in the last 20 years by any government or international organization which does NOT show Beersheba being in Israel?”

        You just showed me one that does not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations

      • amigo
        October 5, 2015, 11:59 am

        “Talknic, there are thousands of maps; here is one” catalan.

        H,mmm, I checked your link and zoomed to 1000% which was it,s limit and the only place name was Israel.It does not even mention Jerusalem.

        Are you being deliberately dishonest or putting in question those four degrees you claim to have.

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 8:19 pm

        amigo re- ‘here is one catalan’

        I do feel sorry for some folk who think they have a point which under even a cursory glance turns out to be contrary to their claims.

  8. michelle
    October 4, 2015, 5:35 pm

    .
    shot through the heart and you’re to blame Bon Jovi & Co. you give love a bad name
    may you remember those who were murdered because they stood for love and peace whenever you think of Israel and whenever you make use of that stolen blood money
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

    • amigo
      October 5, 2015, 3:20 pm

      “Whether or not present-day Jews are biological descendants of the ancient Jews is a fascinating topic… especially if you’re a racist, concerned with “bloodlines” and “racial purity”.
      Seriously, what difference does it make? Are today’s Greeks descended from the ancient Greeks? Are the French descended from the Gauls? Are the British pure-bred Angles and Saxons? Of course not. Throughout history people (including the Jews) have migrated, inter-married, converted…but that doesn’t mean that they don’t take pride in what they consider to be their national history and heritage. What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory. The perception of Israel as the Jew’s ancestral homeland is not something that can be erased by trying to follow “bloodlines” back through history – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/overshadowed-incantation-including#comment-154822” Jon S

      The problem with your narrative is that it fails the test of common sense.None of those nations you listed would require a Jew to change their religion in exchange for citizenship and nor should they.You speak of peoples memory being an integral part of their Jewishness.How does that apply to a new convert to Judaism who immediately becomes entitled to Israeli citizenship.How old is that persons memory or connection to their so called “Historical Homeland” .Do I as a Catholic have the right to claim Rome as my historical Homeland. Does a new convert to catholicism have that right.

      Your welcome to come and live in Ireland and eventually be given citizenship while maintaining your religious preference.In fact you will no be asked what your religion is.If you are a third generation American citizen and either one of your parents or grandparents, ( any earlier relationship is nit acceptable) came from Ireland then you can claim citizenship.Call that bloodlines if you wish but it is not racist.What is racist is , that Jews who have zero connection to Israel except their religious one can gain citizenship but Palestinians who were forced at gunpoint out of their homeland are forbidden to return in contravention of all international laws .That is pure racism and no amount of mental gymnastics on your part will make it otherwise.

      If as you claim you are in favour of solving the Palestinian problem , why don,t you scoot on over to J post or Ynet news and address some of the racist bigots there and convince them they are wrong.Best of luck with that but you already know that , don,t you.

      Quite honestly , reading your anemic excuses/ self serving constructs is tiresome and tedious and makes you look rather pathetic.

      • jon s
        October 5, 2015, 4:26 pm

        Amigo, I do comment occasionally , from the Left, on ynet, in Hebrew.

        After today’s holiday is over , I assume that I’ll have a lot less time to comment here or anywhere.
        So you won’t have to endure my tiresome tedious and pathetic comments. You can cheer up.

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 4:52 pm

        “So you won’t have to endure my tiresome tedious and pathetic comments. You can cheer up. “

        Well, gee “Jon s” given that you are now recycling your own comments (“I allow myself to reprint…” Some people might call that spamming the thread) maybe it is time you took a break.

  9. jon s
    October 5, 2015, 5:46 am

    It seems to me that asserting that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland – there’s the insanity, there’s the fantasy.

    If anyone says that the history is irrelevant to present-day politics – ok, I can accept that as a valid argument, which should be addressed. But not denial of the history.

    • Bumblebye
      October 5, 2015, 6:16 am

      No, jon s, you and those who believe the same are the fantasists.
      You are claiming the birthplace of a religion as a homeland for its followers. You ignore millennia of social history – starting at least 2 1/2 thousand years ago – when small scattered groups among ancientempires proselytized and grew. Just like those religions that came along later. Do Christianity, Islam, Buddhism have “homelands”? Will they or others dwindle over the next millennia or so and at some point in the future start claiming one? Judaism did dwindle – the past did not have the concept of secular Jew, or other concepts that kept people semi-tethered if they didn’t toe the Rabbi’s line.
      In its spread of people, if not in the 100’s of millions, Judaism became a world religion, not one tethered to a small corner of land.

      • yonah fredman
        October 5, 2015, 8:00 am

        Bumblebye- Your automatic assumption that all religions are alike: that no religion has a homeland, is based on what? In fact religions are not identical.

        (One might say that taking Mecca away from the Muslims would prove to be a bit tricky, so in fact, Islam does have a home of sorts.)

        Christianity I would think is different and someone who is familiar with other religions can comment on Hinduism or Buddhism.

        In fact in traditional Judaism, Jerusalem and the land of Israel certainly have a different status than the rest of the world regarding certain commandments, certain laws and hopes and expectations regarding the future (which are shaped by the past). The evolution of the Jewish people or if you wish their devolution since the enlightenment caused many to lose their faith in the religion. This raises a different point, why would someone who denies their faith, still consider himself (or herself) the member of a people based upon that faith? In fact many do not, particularly at this point in time, but to consider the world of 2015 as the illustrative fact, but the facts of 1939 to 1945 Europe as mere anomaly is a type of cherry picking. But in fact to ignore the development of the history of Zionism and the strains and pressures that brought this movement to life is again to don the mask of ignorance.

        There are many Jews particularly in america 2015 who wish to be former Jews or Jews of no religion or Jews with very minor religious affiliation. But there are some Jews in America and elsewhere throughout the world and the vast majority of Jews in Israel circa 2015 who consider themselves either as Jews with an awakened national spirit (after a long slumber) while there are many others Jews who consider themselves a religion that puts an emphasis on am yisroel and on eretz yisroel and on Jerusalem. To pretend that this population does not exist because it doesn’t exist in Buddhism is just pretense and wastes everyone’s time. Maybe it’s good propaganda, but it doesn’t tell us anything about the history or the present tense of the worldwide Jewish ethnic/religious/national community.

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 11:51 am

        “Your automatic assumption that all religions are alike: that no religion has a homeland, is based on what?”

        And your contention that the world owes us our fantasy homeland is absurd. It doesn’t work that way, especially when there are fewer and fewer of us each year. All they have to do is wait us out. (I know, I know, the National Orthodox and Haredim are going to outbreed the entire world.)

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 12:04 pm

        “In its spread of people, if not in the 100’s of millions, Judaism became a world religion, not one tethered to a small corner of land.”

        Gee, you would think Jewish people would be proud of that. I know I am. But, I do admit, an attitude like that is completely unprofitable, providing neither power, land or money.

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 12:42 pm

        “But there are some Jews in America and elsewhere throughout the world and the vast majority of Jews in Israel circa 2015 who consider themselves either as Jews with an awakened national spirit (after a long slumber) while there are many others Jews who consider themselves a religion that puts an emphasis on am yisroel and on eretz yisroel and on Jerusalem. To pretend that this population does not exist because it doesn’t exist in Buddhism is just pretense and wastes everyone’s time.”

        Okay, “Yonah” we won’t pretend it doesn’t exist, no not at all. in fact, I’d like to know more about it. How many people does this group of “some Jews…” consist of? At most, a few million, at most?

        So, I don’t get it, what makes you think the entire world is going to upset itself for a tiny, tiny, number of silly, (or worse) people calling themselves”Jews” and claiming the world owes them something? Or does Judaism, (and the world’s obligation to it) simply concentrate itself in the remaining Jews, each one entitled to a larger share?

    • Sibiriak
      October 5, 2015, 6:43 am

      jon s: If anyone says that the history is irrelevant to present-day politics – ok, I can accept that as a valid argument, which should be addressed. But not denial of the history.

      —————–

      1) What history? Could you please cite the historical evidence that shows that all or most European Jews, North African Jews, Middle Eastern Jews, African Jews, Asian Jews, American Jews, et al.– that all or most of these Jews are direct descendants of Jews that once lived in Palestine? All the evidence I have seen suggests otherwise.

      2) If a person who lives in, say, Russia, a person whose “historic homeland” has always been Russia–if such a person converts and becomes a member of the Jewish people, does then that person’s “historic homeland” suddenly switch from being Russia to being Palestine (Eretz Israel)? If not, then it would be fair to say, would it not, that only some members of the Jewish people (perhaps a very small number) can validly claim that some part of Palestine was their “historic homeland”?

      3) Do any legal rights derive from the fact that some person has a “historic homeland”? If so, please cite evidence of any such “historic-homeland”-based rights (UN documents, international court opinions, opinions of legal scholars etc.).

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 11:42 am

        What history? Could you please cite the historical evidence that shows that all or most European Jews, North African Jews, Middle Eastern Jews, African Jews, Asian Jews, American Jews, et al.– that all or most of these Jews are direct descendants of Jews that once lived in Palestine? All the evidence I have seen suggests otherwise.”

        So “Jon s” is contending that nobody found the Jewish religion or lifestyle attractive, nobody wanted to marry into us, convert, or even simply get absorbed by an appealing, vigorous and working religion? Okay “Jon s” you are right, nobody would touch us, and we expanded to tens of millions of people over Europe and Asia by ‘natural increase’. I don’t want to do the math which gets us to the highest point of Jewish population, before Christianity and Islam got busy.
        Gee, I would have thought we could glory in the diversity of people who, for whatever reason, call themselves Jewish, but no.
        But what is making me laugh is this: under my “present change the past” theory, what “Jon s” says (the “natural increase” theory) may actually become true!
        Sorry, just musing, won’t do it again.

      • jon s
        October 5, 2015, 12:59 pm

        I’m allowing myself to re-post parts of a previous comment of mine on this topic:
        Israel is the Jewish ancestral homeland , as proven by the historical and archaeological record, and by a people’s memory. Whether or not present-day Jews are all directly, biologically, descended from the ancient Hebrews or Israelites is impossible to prove and in any case is not important in my view, since I’m not a racist and I’m not concerned with “bloodlines”. Personally, I can trace my ancestry to certain 18th and 19th century rabbis. Before that – who knows? – but that’s probably no different from other nations or ethnic groups .

        Whether or not present-day Jews are biological descendants of the ancient Jews is a fascinating topic… especially if you’re a racist, concerned with “bloodlines” and “racial purity”.
        Seriously, what difference does it make? Are today’s Greeks descended from the ancient Greeks? Are the French descended from the Gauls? Are the British pure-bred Angles and Saxons? Of course not. Throughout history people (including the Jews) have migrated, inter-married, converted…but that doesn’t mean that they don’t take pride in what they consider to be their national history and heritage. What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory. The perception of Israel as the Jew’s ancestral homeland is not something that can be erased by trying to follow “bloodlines” back through history.

      • eljay
        October 5, 2015, 1:08 pm

        || jon s: … Israel is the Jewish ancestral homeland … ||

        Israel – established in 1948 – is the ancestral homeland of all people from Israel and all people whose ancestors came from Israel. Prior to that, (Mandate) Palestine was the ancestral homeland of all people from (Mandate) Palestine and all people whose ancestors came from (Mandate) Palestine.

        Neither Israel nor (Mandate) Palestine was or is the ancestral homeland (or “historic homeland” or “ancient homeland”) of all people in the world who:
        – have undergone religious conversions to Judaism; or
        – are descended from people who underwent religious conversions to Judaism.

      • Mooser
        October 5, 2015, 1:12 pm

        “Whether or not present-day Jews are all directly, biologically, descended from the ancient Hebrews or Israelites is impossible to prove”

        Gosh, all that genetics looking for “the Jewish gene” was wasted?
        You don’t think modern genetics can give us some pretty definitive answers about that? About the chances, the probability of today’s Jews not being “directly, biologically, descended from the ancient Hebrews”? I rather think it can. And has.

      • eljay
        October 5, 2015, 2:02 pm

        || jon s: … The perception of Israel as the Jew’s ancestral homeland is not something that can be erased by trying to follow “bloodlines” back through history. ||

        The rapist perceives that the women he kidnaps and chains in his basement are rightfully his – it says so in his “Book of Truths” (diary). But perception of something is not an entitlement to something. Perception isn’t the problem.

      • Kris
        October 5, 2015, 2:19 pm

        Jon s, shorter version:

        Jews aren’t biological descendants of the ancient Jews, and it would be racist to think that claiming “Israel” as a “homeland,” and “returning” to it, implied that Jews were actually from the place known as “Israel.” The Jewish claim to that land is based on their “historical memory” of a place they had never seen.

        Jon, just a thought–why don’t you see if you can get a copy of this classic guide to clear, concise writing: http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Fourth-William-Strunk/dp/020530902X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1444068840&sr=1-1&keywords=writing+guide . It’s very short, and well worth reading. It may be in your school’s library.

      • talknic
        October 5, 2015, 3:16 pm

        @ jon s

        “Israel is the Jewish ancestral homeland “

        Israel was proclaimed and immediately recognized by the US as ” as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ considerable smaller than the alleged historical homeland

        ” as proven by the historical and archaeological record”

        Alleged historical record and; What archaeological record?

        ” Seriously, what difference does it make? Are today’s Greeks descended from the ancient Greeks? Are the French descended from the Gauls? Are the British pure-bred Angles and Saxons? Of course not”

        Are today’s Greeks still illegally acquiring non- Greek territory, dispossessing non-Greeks?

        Are the French still illegally acquiring non-French territory, dispossessing non-French?

        Are the British still illegally acquiring non-British territory, dispossessing non-British?

        “What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory. The perception of Israel as the Jew’s ancestral homeland is not something that can be erased by trying to follow “bloodlines” back through history.”

        Marvelous. So go whine to the Zionist Movement and Israeli Govt for proclaiming Israel ” as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ and for having since been busy illegally acquiring non-Israeli territory, putting Israel in breach of International Law and the UN Charter

      • RoHa
        October 5, 2015, 8:38 pm

        Jon, you keep using the term “homeland”.

        What do you mean by that term?

        I know you use the term in connection with the (unclear) term “people”. What relationships to a people make a territory the homeland of that people? Are any other characteristics of the territory involved?

        What are the moral implications of a territory being a homeland?

        I’m sure that a teacher such as yourself will have some pretty clear answers. Otherwise, I, and the rest of your slower students, will think you are just spouting vague, meaningless, waffle.

    • eljay
      October 5, 2015, 7:29 am

      || jon s: It seems to me that asserting that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland – there’s the insanity, there’s the fantasy. … ||

      There has never been a state called “Jewish” with a nationality of “Jewish”. Israel was established in 1947 in Palestine, and declared its independence and borders in 1948. The insanity and the fantasy lie in the assertion that the State of Israel is an “historic homeland” to any person anywhere in the world who:
      – undergoes a religious conversion to Judaism; or
      – is descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

      || … If anyone says that the history is irrelevant to present-day politics – ok, I can accept that as a valid argument, which should be addressed. But not denial of the history. ||

      If it’s irrelevant to present-day politics, why do you keep mentioning it as though it’s relevant? The fact remains that you, an Israeli, live as an Israeli outside of the (Partition) borders of your Israeli state.

      • jon s
        October 6, 2015, 3:57 pm

        RoHa,
        For an individual, homeland usually means the country where you were born, or grew up in. Your native land.

        As in:
        “Last month, when I visited my homeland, I rejoiced in its freedom”.

        For nations , it’s the territory which is the focus of that nation’s aspirations.

        as in:
        “The rebels are fighting for an independent homeland.”

      • Mooser
        October 6, 2015, 6:17 pm

        “For an individual, homeland usually means the country where you were born, or grew up in. Your native land.”

        C’mon, “jon s” sing along You know the words:

        And, hey, I was born in West Hartford!
        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s?keyword=I+was+born#sthash.CWXtPsPX.dpuf

      • RoHa
        October 6, 2015, 9:17 pm

        OK. We’ll gloss over the vagueness of the term “nation” and pretend that the Welsh constitute a nation.

        The majority of Welshmen were born and/or grew up in Wales. (If otherwise, they would hardly be Welsh.)

        This makes Wales the homeland of each of those Welshmen.

        But the Welsh nation (which is, it seems, some sort of collective of Welshmen) focuses its aspirations on Bali. (And if you have been to both Wales and Bali, you will understand why.) In all their eisteddfodau the Bards proclaim the aspiration of establishing an independent homeland on Bali. (The Indonesian government does not include any Welsh speakers, so there is a surprise coming.)

        Thus, Bali is the homeland of the Welsh nation. It seems to me that this means that the various individual Welshmen now have two homelands, Wales and Bali. Have I got this right?

        And what are the moral implications of a territory being a homeland?

      • bryan
        October 7, 2015, 8:20 am

        @Jon s “The rebels are fighting for an independent homeland.” That surely contains a redundancy – in normal usage, if they were fighting for independence it would inevitably imply it was in their own land. Just conceivably rebels could be fighting for both independent self-rule (which they don’t currently have) and a homeland (which they don’t currently have), but I can think only of a single historical example of that and it’s unnecessarily convoluted language: it would be simpler to say “they are engaged in a colonial enterprise”.

      • Mooser
        October 7, 2015, 11:46 am

        “Thus, Bali is the homeland of the Welsh nation.”

        Ladies and gentleman, please stand, for the Welsh National Anthem!

      • Mooser
        October 7, 2015, 4:18 pm

        “For an individual, homeland usually means the country where you were born, or grew up in. Your native land.
        As in:
        “Last month, when I visited my homeland, I rejoiced in its freedom”.”

        Ooops, there’s another one of those little “accidents”.

    • talknic
      October 5, 2015, 11:52 am

      @ jon s “It seems to me that asserting that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland – there’s the insanity, there’s the fantasy”

      Israel is far smaller. Go bitch to the Israeli Government who proclaimed Israel ” as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ in order to be recognized. Since being recognized Israel has not legally acquired any further territories.

      • jon s
        October 7, 2015, 3:55 pm

        RoHa,
        I looked up “eisteddfodau”, so at least I learned something new.
        So,
        -if Bali was inhabited by Welsh thousands of years ago
        -if Bali played a prominent role in the Welsh faith
        -if the Welsh prayed daily for a return to Bali
        -if the Welsh maintained a continuous presence in Bali, making significant contributions to Welsh religion and culture
        -if the Welsh were dispersed all over the world, often persecuted, and ultimately slaughtered in death camps
        and if the Welsh returned to Bali with the intention of living in peace with the Balinese population and sharing the country….
        …then, sure , I would say that the Welsh have a good case.

      • Mooser
        October 7, 2015, 4:15 pm

        Uh’ Jon s” if all those things you infer happened to Jewish people, and many of them did, can you please link us to a Jewish religious authority who says it is all right for us to kill and steal and lie because of these things, and because of our “feelings” for Palestine?

        And, please, just to reassure me, could you link to a Jewish religious authority who can explain why it gives me rights over Palestinians?

        I just want to know you Zionists are doing the religiously correct Jewish thing in violently colonizing Palestine and all the rest. I mean, this should be cake for you!

      • diasp0ra
        October 7, 2015, 8:23 pm

        @Jon s

        The thing is jon, the Zionists never had an intention of returning and living in peace. This is an outright lie. Anyone doing a preliminary search on early Zionism can see that the Zionist project was exclusionary towards the natives and would require their removal.

        You are being dishonest if you truly think the Zionists just wanted to settle in peace but the big mean natives wouldn’t let them.

        I’m not contesting Jewish presence in Palestine, I’m contesting the ethnocratic exclusive claim on Palestine by Zionists.

        Jewish suffering throughout history, while tragic, is not my burden to pay for. Nor is it any Palestinians’ burden either.

      • eljay
        October 7, 2015, 9:16 pm

        || jon s: … So,
        -if Bali was inhabited by Welsh thousands of years ago ||

        It wouldn’t belong to the Welsh today.

        || -if Bali played a prominent role in the Welsh faith ||

        It wouldn’t belong to the Welsh today.

        || -if the Welsh prayed daily for a return to Bali ||

        It wouldn’t belong to the Welsh today.

        || -if the Welsh maintained a continuous presence in Bali, making significant contributions to Welsh religion and culture ||

        The Welsh maintaining a continuous presence in Bali would be Balinese, just like all the other Balinese. Bali wouldn’t belong to the Welsh today.

        || -if the Welsh were dispersed all over the world, often persecuted, and ultimately slaughtered in death camps ||

        1. The Welsh born / living in various countries around the world would be citizens of those countries. They would not be “dispersed” Balinese people. Bali wouldn’t belong to them today.
        2. If Welsh people living in other countries were persecuted, they would be entitled to justice, and to hold their persecutors accountable. They wouldn’t be entitled to steal, occupy and colonize Bali, to drive out the Balinese and to turn Bali into a supremacist “Welsh State”.
        3. If Welsh people living in other countries were slaughtered, they would be dead.

        || and if the Welsh returned to Bali with the intention of living in peace with the Balinese population and sharing the country…. ||

        1. The non-Balinese Welsh would not be “returning” to Bali, a place they are not from, a place that is not their homeland.
        2. The Balinese – not the Welsh – are the ones who get to decide whether or not they wish to share their country.

        || …then, sure , I would say that the Welsh have a good case. ||

        They, like the Zio-supremacists, would have no case at all.

        Epic fail on all counts. It’s no wonder you haven’t got a clue just how hateful and immoral you are.

        Unless, of course, you do have a clue but you just don’t care…

      • RoHa
        October 8, 2015, 1:22 am

        Wow! Where did all that fine print come from? Clearly there is more to this homeland business than “it’s the territory which is the focus of that nation’s aspirations.”

        First, that list of items looks terribly familiar. I expected you to produce a list of characteristics that would apply to all claims for homelands, and be based, rationally, on universal moral principles. Then we would be able to test the Zionist claims against those principles. Instead, it looks as though you have simply taken the Zionist talking points and made them into principles. Very easy, then, to show that the Zionist claim to Palestine fits the principles.

        Second, I want to know is what combinations of those elements will definitely make Bali the homeland of the Welsh nation. “Have a good case …” won’t do. Either it is the homeland or it isn’t. If it is, something makes it so. What?

        Third, if the answer to the question above is “all of them”, then it looks as though only the Zionists can claim a homeland. But you said earlier that Palestine is also the homeland of the Palestinians. What basis is there for that claim?

        Fourth, you haven’t taken up the oddity that the Welsh would have two homelands. Could you discuss this a bit, please?

        Fifth, what are the moral implications of homelands? What rights, duties, etc., do the Welsh have in regard to Bali and Wales?

      • RoHa
        October 8, 2015, 2:49 am

        Some of those items are a bit odd.

        ” -if Bali was inhabited by Welsh thousands of years ago”

        I’m going to interpret that as “if the modern Welsh are descendants of ancient Balinese”, since that seems to be the only interpretation that makes sense. But I don’t think that Shirley Bassey and Richard Burton can both be descendants of ancient Balinese. Does that exclude one of them from claiming Bali as a homeland?

        Well, from some of your earlier comments, it would seem not. You reject bloodline, and appeal to “a people’s consciousness , their historical memory.” I don’t know what that is supposed to mean, but it looks as though it isn’t a matter of fact, but of belief. If Bali is included in the “consciousness and historical memory” of the Welsh, then Bali actually being inhabited by the Welsh at some time in the past doesn’t seem to matter.

        “-if the Welsh maintained a continuous presence in Bali, making significant contributions to Welsh religion and culture”

        People who maintained a continuous presence in Bali would not be Welsh but Balinese, even if they spoke Welsh. What would their presence have to do with the Welsh claim to Bali as a homeland? How would their significant contributions to the Tawddgyrch Cadwynog and Cywydd Llosgyrnog verse forms affect the issue?

        “if the Welsh returned to Bali with the intention of living in peace with the Balinese population and sharing the country….”

        They would be better than the Zionists, who only intended to take over the country.

  10. just
    October 5, 2015, 8:04 am

    RIP:

    “Swedish Crime Novelist, pro-Palestinian Activist Mankell Dies

    Best known for his Inspector Wallander novels, Henning Mankell also participated in the infamous Mavi Marmara flotilla

    Swedish writer Henning Mankell, author of the Inspector Wallander novels, has died at the age of 67, his publisher said on Monday. The novelist had been suffering from cancer. He was also a vocal pro-Palestinian activist and participated in a now-infamous 2010 flotilla to Gaza …

    Mankell gained a reputation as one of the main representatives of the so-called Nordic noir genre, exploring the darker side of Sweden and providing a counterpoint to the country’s image as a relatively crime-free society. 

    “He passed away quietly last night in the wake of disease,” publisher Leopard Forlag said on its website. 

    Mankell took part in the Mavi Marmara flotilla to Gaza in May 2010 and planned to join subsequent ones, though he was not present on the Marmara itself when Israeli commandos raided the vessel. In a press conference preceding one such flotilla, he defended its actions, saying they were not a declaration of war, but a declaration of peace.

    In an op-ed written for Haaretz after boats planning to embark to Gaza from Greece were mysteriously sabotaged, Mankell wrote: “My participation in last year’s flotilla and my decision to join the upcoming flotilla are acts of solidarity with a single purpose: to try to participate in ending the illegal blockade of Gaza.”

    “We will return with broader support and a bigger flotilla, and I promise that the Israeli regime won’t have a quiet moment until this illegal blockade is broken… Even though our ships didn’t move an inch, this is yet another failure for Israel. The regime’s desperate fear increases the opposition against human rights violations in Gaza,” he wrote.”

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.678882?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    {“Israelis Cannot Make the Gaza Reality Disappear
    I admit I overestimated the strength of Greece’s democracy. Or let me put it this way: I didn’t see how thin the varnish of what we call Israeli democracy really is.”
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israelis-cannot-make-the-gaza-reality-disappear-1.373632}

    • a blah chick
      October 5, 2015, 8:49 am

      I’ve read most of the Wallander books and it pleases me to know that their author was just as humane and moral as his fictional policeman.

  11. Accentitude
    October 5, 2015, 8:37 am

    “Yes, I heard about that but it doesn’t interest me. I told my managers to give one simple answer: That I’m coming to Israel and I’m excited to come.”

    Translation: “Yes, I heard about that but human rights don’t interest me with all their dead babies and what-not. I’m more concerned with international sightseeing and raking in the cash that 40,000 expected fans will deliver if each ticket to the show will cost a minimum of $150. Do you know what that means? $6 million dollars before all the fees and costs are paid to the promoters, engineers, security, logistics, etc…So forget that human rights crap. Tell ’em I’m coming to Israel and I’m excited to come….cha-ching!”

  12. ckg
    October 5, 2015, 9:31 am

    @just– Mankell’s account of the attack on the Mavi Marmara was published in the Guardian. He accused Israel of murder, piracy and kidnapping. Yes, this is “infamous”, but not in the way Haaretz believes.

  13. Les
    October 5, 2015, 6:22 pm

    Our Pilgrim forefathers called America their new home thanks to God’s reward of the land for their past mistreatment by fellow Europeans. To enforce God’s promise, preachers called for the extermination of the Indian savages.

  14. Citizen
    October 7, 2015, 3:42 am

    Howard Stern spit out a bunch of Hasbara 101 excuses to Waters, and asked him, “Do you want to send the Jews back into the concentration camps?”

    • Kay24
      October 7, 2015, 7:01 am

      The words “holocaust” and concentration camps” are overused, abused, and is losing the impact it used to have. It is a shame. Those using it for the wrong reasons are simply doing it for making drama out of nothing.

      • Mayhem
        October 10, 2015, 1:25 am

        And the words “occupation”, “ethnic cleansing”, “apartheid state” have they also now been turfed into your garbage bin?

  15. flyod
    October 7, 2015, 7:42 am

    i’ve always just changed stations anytime a bon jovi tune came on……..

  16. Citizen
    October 8, 2015, 12:38 pm

    While in Israel he dedicated the following song to the Jewish Israeli people: http://www.metrolyrics.com/we-dont-run-lyrics-bon-jovi.html

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