‘Zionism is nationalism, not Judaism,’ a former Hebrew school teacher explains

Middle East
on 73 Comments

The media have at last taken up an important discussion: the relationship of Judaism and Zionism. Many supporters of Israel say that to be Jewish means to be a Zionist; and therefore it’s anti-Semitic to be anti-Zionist. Even public officials (from Hillary Clinton to Ted Cruz to Barack Obama) have backed up this claim.

I thought it would be helpful to ask Israeli-American Tziva Thier, a former Hebrew school teacher and liberal Zionist, about the difference between Zionism and Judaism. I met her in New Brunswick, N.J., ten days ago, and she said:

Anti-Zionism is being anti- a political movement that is nationalist. This is a nationalist movement. Anti-semitism is racism against a group of people because of their religion. So there is no connection. Anti-semitism is hating Jews for being Jews. Anti-Zionism is being anti- what the Zionist entity is doing right now as a colonialist apartheid country.

I point out that American synagogues and Jewish institutions freely and widely define Jewishness as Zionism. Thier responds that many orthodox Jews are anti-Zionist, and the synagogues are just wrong.

Jews are not allowed to murder innocent people. This is against Judaism. Yes– in the synagogues– they are wrong. When they will wake up? I don’t know if it will be in my lifetime, but they will. They must wake up some time…  Israel is committing crimes, and it’s not Judaism, it’s nationalism.

Even the name of the country is taken from the Jewish religion, but that’s a trap, she says. “Israel is also stolen from Judaism. [In the bible] the other name for Jacob was Israel.”

That is why she calls Israel “the Zionist entity.” I say that she is potentially alienating Israelis from a movement for democracy in Israel and Palestine. Don’t we want to persuade Israelis, not alienate them?

“They’re lost. No change will come from within,” Tzvia Thier says. She then explains that she is for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions as a means of pressuring Israeli society to change without bloodshed.

In the next video, I ask Thier about the possibilities of nonviolent change. Dont we want an F.W. de Klerk to arise in Israel, as in South Africa? Thier says the only possible de Klerk in Israeli society is Ayman Odeh, the Palestinian politician and leader of the Joint List.

I ask whether Israel will only be transformed as Algeria was, or the slave south in the United States: with massive violence. She says if the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign (BDS) gets real strength, it might do the trick. “If people are hungry, maybe then, those who are now in deep coma, they will wake up. When they are economically really hurt… If they will be really, really hurt, maybe they will raise their voices. Not because of being so humane about the Palestinians, but take care of themselves.”

That could take another 20 years. In South Africa, change happened much more quickly. But South Africa didn’t have the Holocaust. Israel is “using and abusing” the Holocaust so it extends its existence, she says. (Thier’s family fled Eastern Europe when she was a girl.)

At the end of the video, Thier urges people to speak out against Israel despite efforts to brand criticism as anti-Semitism. “It’s fighting against crimes… war crimes… It’s beyond criticizing.”

Finally, here is a video in which Thier explains the nature of Zionist indoctrination. I challenge her over the fact that American Jewish institutions broadly and willingly support the existence of Israel. She says Zionism has taken Jews hostage; and refers to the use of the Holocaust as the rationale for Israel. She says at minute 3:00 that the Holocaust is “too traumatic” a historical experience to be the basis for nation-building. In fact, Israel has become one of the least safe places in the world for Jews and others.

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

73 Responses

  1. hophmi
    April 4, 2016, 10:33 am

    I thought it would be helpful to interview someone I already know will agree with everything I already think.

    • eljay
      April 4, 2016, 11:02 am

      || hophmi: I thought it would be helpful to interview someone I already know will agree with everything I already think. ||

      You’re right: Phil shouldn’t stoop to the level of Zio-supremacists.

      • Lillian Rosengarten
        April 8, 2016, 12:14 am

        Marvelous interview Phil. Thier has clarity about a very difficult distinction something I too am working on. The issues discussed are of great importance. Thier brings to light a most important distinction between true anti-Semitism and Zionist propaganda , a form of domestic terrorism in my view that is used to make the case for a Jewish state only and to justify the atrocities against Palestinians. And yes, I do think Israelis and many other Jews (certainly not all)have been sold a bill of goods, lies and deceit, racism and brutalization and have somehow been convinced that Jews they are in danger of another Holocaust and these actions must be taken for only a Jewish State, the Zionist nightmare. In the nationalistic racism of Zionistic ideology,the belief is this is the only way to protect Jews from anti-Semitism and destruction. Now after three generations, the lies and distortions are taken as truth. I do think for many Jews and also non-Jews, this argument can bring out ambivalence and anger for many.

    • Philip Weiss
      April 4, 2016, 11:05 am

      That’s a mean and foolish comment, Hophmi. While it is absolutely true that I am interviewing someone I already know, Tzvia thinks for herself, in the videos she does not agree with me (if anything I agree with her), and as a matter of fact I disagree with her on several questions. I don’t think that one should call Israel the zionist entity, I regard the Zionist indoctrination in American Jewish institutions as a willing one, and I dont see Israel as a client state of the US, I see the lobby as wielding power. But there you go: you hijacked the thread.

      • hophmi
        April 4, 2016, 11:47 am

        You’ve highlighted Thier on here how many times now? Why? Because she thinks that Israel (sorry, the “Zionist entity” a la Iranian leaders) is an unredeemable place based on the Holocaust where no change will come from within and she supports BDS. This must be a truly enlightening experience for your readership. I bet they’ve never heard from pro-BDS anti-Zionist Jews before.

        When are you going to highlight someone in the BDS movement who is willing to take on the antisemitism in the BDS movement or who supports a two-state solution? That would be different.

      • talknic
        April 4, 2016, 12:53 pm

        @ hophmi April 4, 2016, 11:47 am

        “When are you going to highlight someone in the BDS movement who is willing to take on the antisemitism in the BDS movement”

        When you show evidence there is any actual antisemitism in asking that Israel adhere to its legal obligations to International Law and the UN Charter

        ” … or who supports a two-state solution? “

        Were Israel to adhere to International Law and the UN Charter it would by default result in two states

        ” I bet they’ve never heard from pro-BDS anti-Zionist Jews before”

        Ziodrivel is so cute

      • Keith
        April 4, 2016, 3:37 pm

        HOPHMI- “…who is willing to take on the antisemitism in the BDS movement….”

        Why don’t you submit an article? I would be most interested in seeing all of the examples of anti-Semitism that you are aware of.

      • pabelmont
        April 4, 2016, 5:16 pm

        My guess? Tzvia Their prefers (as terminology) “The Zionist Entity” to “Israel” — and probably does not like the use of the Star of David on the Israeli flag — because these are both appropriations of religious symbols by a political movement which is at least distinct from the religion and at most antipathetic to it (as she believes and many orthodox Jews also believe).

        Now some people are at pains to point out that there are many flavors of Judaism, and Zionism might just be one of them, to which many folks formerly adherents of another flavor of Judaism have switched. But that scarcely give this one particular flavor” (that is, Zionism — the nationalist quasi-Golden-Calf-type-of-religious outgrowth of Judaism) to appropriate all those Jewish symbols and pretend to be THE country of THE Jews.

      • JWalters
        April 4, 2016, 5:17 pm

        hophmi never actually engages with the question at hand. He apparently does not have the intellectual capacity or courage to do that. Instead he points to some other question, which he also fails to discuss, with a presumptuous air of superiority. He acts like he really believes he is one of God’s chosen people, not bound by normal concerns of evidence and logic. This may be comforting to middle school Zionists who are shocked by the facts they read here. Or perhaps it merely warms his own heart with private gloating.

      • Citizen
        April 4, 2016, 5:27 pm

        @ Hophmi

        So, you don’t think Israel today resembles Germany in the 1930s in significant ways? You say pointing out factual examples of this is just examples of Jew hate?
        Israeli Professor Calls Justice Minister ‘Neo-Nazi Scum’ | World News |Axisoflogic.com https://shar.es/1YVJPK via @sharethis

        Taxpaying Americans, particularly, should not notice despite the fact US is the lone superpower and most key enabler of the Israeli regime?
        They should not even protest in non-violent ways, such as BDS?
        They should just give Israel a new $50 billion dollar package as Israel is demanding now to compensate for US +5 Iran Deal keeping Iran from developing nuclear weapons such as Israel has now, the same israel who continually threatens Iran?
        Many here would like you to tell us what you think is acceptable response to what Israel is doing with our money and our provision of diplomatic immunity at the UN via veto.

      • RockyMissouri
        April 5, 2016, 9:48 am

        What a delight she is! I read a letter she wrote a few years ago and posted to Facebook.. She spoke from the heart, and I was impressed with her eloquence. Thank you!

      • hophmi
        April 5, 2016, 3:29 pm

        “So, you don’t think Israel today resembles Germany in the 1930s in significant ways? ”

        No, I don’t. I think that comparison is ridiculous. You have some racist yahoos in Israel; there’s no question. You also have a population that has been traumatized by 20+ years of extreme violence. But the reality? It remains a liberal democracy where the major ethnic minority group is strongly represented in the Knesset, the Supreme Court continues to act as a check against legislative excess, and a tremendously diverse freedom of expression continues to exist. That’s not fascism. That’s a democracy with large but solvable problems.

        “Taxpaying Americans, particularly, should not notice despite the fact US is the lone superpower and most key enabler of the Israeli regime?”

        Yeah, I hear this a lot. We’re not the chief enabler of the Israeli regime. We support Israel because we share democratic values and because, pragmatically, there’s really nothing else to support in the Middle East. If we enable any regime in the Middle East, it’s Egypt’s, which would fall without our military support. Israel would not. And I don’t think your advocacy against Israel is about taxes. That’s a talking point.

        “They should not even protest in non-violent ways, such as BDS?”

        BDS isn’t non-violent. It’s the Western wing of a violent Palestinian nationalism. Non-violence is a moral position. It’s not a political strategy for gaining the support of Western college students.

        I think that we can really drop that non-violent pretense. Jasbir Puar spoke at Vassar and called BDS a way to support the stabbing Intifada. BDS activists in California now chant Intifada, intifada on campus. And of course, none of you condemn Palestinian violence. That’s not what non-violence is, sorry. That’s just supporting a nationalist cause.

        “They should just give Israel a new $50 billion dollar package as Israel is demanding now to compensate for US +5 Iran Deal keeping Iran from developing nuclear weapons such as Israel has now, the same israel who continually threatens Iran?”

        They will. Israel doesn’t threaten Iran. Israel doesn’t chant Death to Iran every day or even talk about ending the Islamic regime. The Iranians make no secret of the desire to destroy Israel. It takes naive pro-Iran apologists to focus on a minor mistranslation from one occasion, to argue that this somehow means something else, and then to ignore everything else Iranian leaders have said before or since, and everything they’ve done, including arming groups targeting Israeli civilians.

        “Many here would like you to tell us what you think is acceptable response to what Israel is doing with our money and our provision of diplomatic immunity at the UN via veto.”

        Thank them for serving our interests (and our economy, since most of the money comes right back here), and for being the only place in the Middle East where burning the American flag is not a regular pastime. Also recognize that settlements, illegal or not, are not the reason why Iraqi Christians are experiencing a genocide or why Syrians are murdering one another in the hundreds of thousands right now or, in the final analysis, why we do not yet have peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

      • DaBakr
        April 5, 2016, 11:11 pm

        The fact that pw can’t seem to see through his commonly exuberant interviews that accomplish not much more then preaching to the choir is not surprising hpm.

        It is obvious by now that mw is no more a ‘ war of idea’s ‘ about the middle East and I/p conflict but in actuality a cheerleading blog filled with news, features, bds and proposals that highlights israel in the worst possible light while making Palestinians out to be the single most victimized,brutalized, lied to, manipulated and murdered people in the world since the end of w2 -which just happens to be their convenient cut-off date for historical transgressions, triumph in war and why some people qualify as eternal refugees while everyone else had to move on, build lives and seek recompense rather then all out war until the land, “from river to sea” is “free” (which in itself is just a euphemism for eliminating the nation of Israel as the Zionist home land of the Jewish people..

        You certainly get points for tenacity in the face of nothing more then juvenile insults hurled back your way but what makes you think you could EVER make a dent in either the ideology or just the plain old rank-and-file anti-Israel, zionist-haters? people that can’t seem to grasp the absurdity of focusing on one tiny nation of all the others on the earth for their wrath, disgust, disappointment, and for many, their pure hatred and bloodlust(sometimes couched as a belief in justice and setting things righT

        So, the only ‘war’ going on here is the one where the Zionists lose what had been fought for, bled for, built for both Jews and the palestinian,druze and bedouin citizens that have opted in to Israeli citizenship and show no signs of wishing to relinquish that to embrace some unknown form of tyranny, dictatorship, theocracy. etc.

        To many, the ‘war of idea’s’ on the I/p conflict seems intractable. If the equations used I game theory are employed the outcomes will tend to be distant and bleak. But there are always the unexpected. Surprises. They knock game theory on its ass while still proving the basic premise.

        So it just comes down to which side believes time will favour them and why and if by chance some pragmatist or visionary tries to change the equation you hpmi may see as change in the cement’ll like views of your Mexico’s

        Until then…. Sit back and enjoy the coming insults sure to be flung this way

      • bryan
        April 6, 2016, 6:56 am

        Hophmi – “You also have a population that has been traumatized by 20+ years of extreme violence”

        Two standards here aren’t there? One population is sensitive and easily traumatised; another population which has experienced much greater violence over a much longer period is expected to sit back and accept its (collective) punishment, and to slowly have forced into its dull perception that “might is right”.

        Or are you slowly coming to an awareness that violence is counter-productive and about to apply to join “Peace Now”?

      • hophmi
        April 6, 2016, 11:21 am

        “Two standards here aren’t there?”

        Not at all. You’ve made the case for why there must be two states. You have two traumatized peoples. I know well that violence is counterproductive, which is why I wonder why BDSers refuse to condemn it.

      • bryan
        April 8, 2016, 6:40 am

        If two traumatised populations demonstrate the necessity of two states and one of those populations has constantly demanded their own state, whilst the other has constantly prevaricated and undermined the achievement of two states by continued illegal activity, then could one perhaps not conclude that one of those populations is not half as traumatised as it would like to think? As for BDSers refusing to condemn any violence, and Zionists vigorously condemning all violence and all incitement to violence, no matter from what source, why does one get the impression that big lies don’t work?

    • John Douglas
      April 4, 2016, 1:33 pm

      hophmi seems like a pretty smart guy/woman. If something well-reasoned or interesting comes out, I’d say respond to it. But usually it’s just a gratuitous insult or some trivial snark. I don’t know why people bother. Basic Skinnerian principles: if a behavior receives no recognition/consequences, it disappears. I get bored quickly with the hophni sub-threads, though I think some intelligent pro-Zionist commentators would be interesting.

      • hophmi
        April 4, 2016, 2:46 pm

        1. I’ve been here a while, so don’t count on me going away.

        2. The vast majority of the commentary here isn’t in any way intelligent, and mostly, what’s directed toward me are insults.

        3. If your BS psychoanalyzing were true, Mooser would have gone away a long time ago.

      • echinococcus
        April 4, 2016, 7:57 pm

        4. Hophmi has been here a while –on sufferance by the site’s owner, like we all are. It would only take a millisecond to ban him at any moment if the owner so decides.
        5. Is Hophmi’s contention that what he calls “insults”are unearned?
        6. Mooser is a particularly intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable, thoughtful and funny contributor, i.e. the diametrical opposite of Hophmi in every point.

      • John Douglas
        April 5, 2016, 1:54 pm

        The last thing that I would want to see is for someone to disappear simply for having contrary views, which are required to prevent groupthink and preaching to the choir. Insults, motive mongering and trivial snarkiness would not be missed, however, no matter where they come from.

      • hophmi
        April 5, 2016, 3:30 pm

        “6. Mooser is a particularly intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable, thoughtful and funny contributor, i.e. the diametrical opposite of Hophmi in every point.”

        LOL.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2016, 7:43 pm

        Okay, this is way OT, but the B&W portrait of “Tzvia Thier, by her husband Uri” is wonderful.

      • DaBakr
        April 5, 2016, 9:34 pm

        mossr has a crush on the Israel-hater their, one of pw’s fave anti-zionists. being a staunch left wing progressive maybe uti and their are open to progressive experiences

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2016, 11:02 pm

        “Dabakr”, you’re a regular Zionist DSM.

    • Marnie
      April 6, 2016, 12:41 am

      Hophni – Proverbs 14:30 – A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.

  2. oldgeezer
    April 4, 2016, 11:15 am

    If zionism is a part of Judaism then both are reduced to the level of politics. While not holding any religious beliefs I strongly believe in the freedom to believe and worship as one wants. If Judaism is a political movement I don’t feel it’s entitled to this protection whatsoever. I think we all have a right to criticize, ostracize and even outlaw political movements.

    I am in agreement with this author that they are not the same and feel this twinning of systems is being done to attempt to hide zionism behind the skirts of the religion. Shameful thing to do but there can’t be any surprise that criminals who behave the way zionists do would attempt it. They have no morals even when it comes to human lives let alone human beliefs.

    • eljay
      April 4, 2016, 11:40 am

      || oldgeezer: I am in agreement with this author that they are not the same and feel this twinning of systems is being done to attempt to hide zionism behind the skirts of the religion. … ||

      Sure it is, and hophmi and his fellow Zio-supremacists know this because they do it all the time. They’ll tell you that Jewish is about far more than just religion – it’s a tribe, a culture, an ethnicity, a collective, a people, a nation and a civilization (and a dessert topping and floor wax) – but they will inevitably defend Jewish as a religion.

      In another recent thread, hophmi essentially stated that if a Jewish person does not care for the Jewish religion, he has no right to “speak as a Jew”. If that’s not blatant anti-Semitism, it is a good crapping all over the ideal of “self-determination” that Zio-supremacists can’t seem to stop going on about.

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2016, 3:21 pm

        ” it’s a tribe, a culture, an ethnicity, a collective, a people, a nation and a civilization (and a dessert topping and floor wax) – but they will inevitably defend Jewish as a religion.”

        Thanks “eljay”. Remember, you can use it on a parfait or the parquet!

      • eljay
        April 4, 2016, 9:28 pm

        || Mooser: Thanks “eljay”. Remember, you can use it on a parfait or the parquet! ||

        Parfect! :-)

    • Bornajoo
      April 5, 2016, 3:03 am

      “Mooser is a particularly intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable, thoughtful and funny contributor, i.e. the diametrical opposite of Hophmi in every point.” (Echi)

      Here here! Couldn’t agree more

    • ritzl
      April 6, 2016, 6:37 pm

      Great points oldgeezer.

  3. Stephen Shenfield
    April 4, 2016, 3:26 pm

    I don’t think Israel should be called an entity because “entity” is defined as “a thing with distinct and independent existence” and Israel is parasitically dependent (mainly on the US, as we all know). There IS a Zionist entity but it encompasses not only the State of Israel but also Zionist institutions and lobbies.

    • echinococcus
      April 4, 2016, 10:52 pm

      Stephen, there is a Zionist entity in Palestine –a state entity occupying and oppressing all of Palestine that it is striving to rid of its owners. It is not co-extensive with what it declared as “Israel” (disregarding for a moment the shameless exploitation of religion by a murderous political movement), because that is a fake representation of a fiction of 2 territories on Palestine, to camouflage the fact that total dispossession and ultimately genocide of the Palestinian people is being committed, in all of Palestine.

      The fact that there is a Zionist movement in several other countries, with several millions of potential illegitimate citizens of the Zionist entity functioning as a fifth column, dictating policy to the US, the UK, France and other imperialist powers doesn’t mean they are the same entity as the state. In fact, all signs indicate that both the state and the international political movement are loosely directed from inside the US, but not as a single unit.

  4. Keith
    April 4, 2016, 3:31 pm

    TZVIA THIER QUOTE- “Anti-semitism is hating Jews for being Jews.”

    This is the classic definition of anti-Semitism, however, people are rarely labeled as anti-Semites based upon this definition. Most are labeled as anti-Semites based upon the operational definition of being an impediment to Jewish Zionist power seeking. Think about it. Suppose I claim that Jews are significantly overrepresented on Wall Street. Does this indicate hatred of Jews? Whether this claimed overrepresentation is true or not is another matter. And if true, what the consequences are is also another matter. Yet, to state that Jews are overrepresented in the media, finance or among the elites in general will inevitably bring forth charges of engaging in anti-Semitic tropes. And once the label is successfully attached, Jew hatred will be inferred. This is a tried and true method for discouraging inquiry into social inequality and of the distribution of power in our political economy.

    • Mooser
      April 4, 2016, 5:34 pm

      “Suppose I claim that Jews are significantly overrepresented on Wall Street. Yet, to state that Jews are overrepresented in the media, finance or among the elites in general will inevitably bring forth charges of engaging in anti-Semitic tropes. – “

      “Keith” you could go a long way towards dismissing those charges by abandoning the insidious inspecificity of words like “overrepresented” and using numbers. Statistics!
      If we know how many Jews should be in media, finance or the elite, it would be a simple matter to demonstrate that these quotas have been exceeded.
      What would you propose as the baseline numbers? An even 2% in each field?

      • Keith
        April 4, 2016, 8:37 pm

        MOOSER- ““Keith” you could go a long way towards dismissing those charges by abandoning the insidious inspecificity of words like “overrepresented” and using numbers. Statistics!”

        Any idea who compiles such statistics? Jewish organizations, most likely. Hell, before I came to Mondoweiss, I had no idea that Larry Summers was Jewish. Same with Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, et al. Hells bells, Moose, if I were to devote serious time to this that would be taken as prima facie evidence that I was a (gasp!) Jew hobbiest!

        As a general rule, when the numbers are readily available (almost always provided by Jews), I consider significant multiples of the population percent to represent clear cut instances of “overrepresentation,” as relates to the whole population. For example, in the thread on Nit In Aundzer Nomen, the students indicated the need for Jewish solidarity to represent Jewish interests on campus because of a previous incident of quotas to limit Jewish enrollment at McGill University back when Jewish enrollment was 25% of the student body. Since Jews constitute !% of the population of Canada, that means that Jewish enrollment was 25X of their population base. A rather significant example of overrepresentation, don’t you think? Now one can debate whether this represents a problem and what, if anything should be done about it, but I think that disproportionate influence in the intelligentsia and the entire doctrinal system is something which we should be aware of and be able to discuss. Surely, having a de facto ethnic caste system should be a cause for concern, particularly since wealth and power continues to flow upward. I hope you are not suggesting that we don’t discuss these issues unless I, as a commenter, provide elaborate statistical data? If what I say is nothing but crap, surely you or Hophmi can provide the relevant statistical data to show my ignorance. I seem to recall Phil talking about Jewish wealth and power, so maybe I am not a bigot after all.

      • Citizen
        April 4, 2016, 10:29 pm

        Is that affirmative action?

      • hophmi
        April 5, 2016, 3:35 pm

        No, Jewish organizations do not compile stats on how many Jewish billionaires there are. We leave that to the KKK.

        “Now one can debate whether this represents a problem and what, if anything should be done about it, but I think that disproportionate influence in the intelligentsia and the entire doctrinal system is something which we should be aware of and be able to discuss.”

        Says you and Wilhelm Marr. Entire doctrinal system? Right, because Jews aren’t just 25% of McGill. They’re the Jewish 25%, and they act collectively, and use their influence collectively. They have big meetings where they discuss how they’re going to influence the doctrinal system.

        This is the kind of overt antisemitic thinking that the BDS movement needs to reject. And unfortunately, Phil not only rejects it; he enables it.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2016, 8:00 pm

        ” I consider significant multiples of the population percent to represent clear cut instances of “overrepresentation,”

        So maybe 2% (very approximate, I’m sure it can be fixed with more precision) in the US would be good?

      • Keith
        April 5, 2016, 9:39 pm

        HOPHMI- “Says you and Wilhelm Marr.”

        It always amazes me the extent to which you Zionists tirelessly search for examples of anti-Semitism. Once again I find myself compared to someone I never heard of. I gather that you have read him rather extensively. Actually, you seem quite obsessed with searching for the faintest hints of what you falsely claim is anti-Semitism. You wear your anti-Gentile chauvinism on your sleeve, Hophmi.

        HOPHMI- “Entire doctrinal system?”

        Do you deny that Jews are disproportionately influential in the doctrinal system?

        HOPHMI- “Right, because Jews aren’t just 25% of McGill. They’re the Jewish 25%, and they act collectively, and use their influence collectively.”

        Organized Jewry most certainly acts collectively to influence the political economy to the benefit of (primarily Zionist) Jews and to influence US foreign policy to support Israel. Are you actually going to deny this? From the website of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations:

        “Every day, the Conference of Presidents Fund works publicly and behind the scenes raising vital concerns with scores of US and world leaders about Israel’s security and vitality, threats posed by a nuclear Iran, global terrorism and anti-Semitism, making a critical difference at home and abroad.” http://conferenceofpresidents.org/

      • Keith
        April 5, 2016, 10:04 pm

        MOOSER- “So maybe 2% (very approximate, I’m sure it can be fixed with more precision) in the US would be good?”

        I am less concerned about attaching specific percentages to particular ethnic groupings than I am about the overall concentration of power in our political economy, primarily in the concentration of wealth which roughly translates to power in capitalism. I am more concerned about the fact of oligarchs than about the ethnicity of these oligarchs. Because Mondoweiss is concerned with the Middle East and the Jewish state and the American Jewish support for the Jewish state, I wind up discussing these issues more than they really concern me. My top concern is nuclear war, followed by environmental collapse, followed by social collapse leading to neofeudalism, however, those aren’t appropriate Mondoweiss topics. I do, however, find Jewish tribalism and power seeking an interesting topic both for what it reveals about the political economy and power distribution, and how it effects US policy towards Israel. As I hope you are aware, how a society handles the distribution of power is critically important and rather complex. There are no easy answers, however, this ongoing Jewish effort to sweep Jewish power under the rug isn’t helping achieve understanding. And no, I don’t think that having Jews as de facto birthright Mandarins is wholesome. Nor is the circling of wagons when the topic comes up. Interestingly, you can locate Jewish websites where Jewish success and power is the occasion for considerable braggadocio. But that is for intended for tribal use only.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2016, 10:51 pm

        “I am less concerned about attaching specific percentages…/…to power in capitalism.

        That’s the way to go.

      • Sibiriak
        April 5, 2016, 11:32 pm

        Keith: American Jewish support for the Jewish state
        ————–

        In your view, would Jewish over-representation in the “doctrinal system” not be a serious problem if it were not for that support of Israel?

        If so, might it not be a better rhetorical strategy to focus specifically on Jewish Zionism ( and non-Jewish Zionism as well) rather than on “Jewish over-representation” in general, “Jewish power-seeking” in general, “Jewish tribalism” in general, etc.–even if your ideas on those general Jewish issues are not without some validity?

      • echinococcus
        April 6, 2016, 1:01 am

        might it not be a better rhetorical strategy to focus specifically on Jewish Zionism ( and non-Jewish Zionism as well) rather than on “Jewish over-representation” in general, “Jewish power-seeking” in general, “Jewish tribalism” in general, etc.–even if your ideas on those general Jewish issues are not without some validity?

        Thank you, Sibiriak. Excellent thinking.
        There remains, though, that the success of Zionist crime was mainly possible thanks to Jewish over-representation, power-seeking and tribalism (the latter summarizing all other actions); more than “some validity”.

      • Keith
        April 6, 2016, 10:32 am

        SIBIRIAK- “In your view, would Jewish over-representation in the “doctrinal system” not be a serious problem if it were not for that support of Israel?”

        In the big scheme of things, I am not as concerned with Jewish overrepresentation in the doctrinal system as it may appear. There are other issues involving the survival of the species that are much more serious.

        As for support for Israel and a rhetorical strategy, I consider Zionism and support for Israel as essential for the creation of the tribal solidarity which enabled the massive accumulation of power by the Jewish Zionists. American Jewish success and Zionism are inexorably linked. Whether or not the current level of dominance is sustainable without something like Zionism is debatable. The general social inertia in regards to concentrated power is such that Zionism was a necessary factor in the replacement of the East Coast Protestant elites. Whether this inertia is enough to keep post-Zionist Jews at the top of the heap is unknown. In any event, I do consider a de facto caste system a significant social problem which, ideally, should be ameliorated over time, something which I don’t see happening.

        On an even more serious note, I believe that we are entering a transition period as the financial system and neoliberalism inexorably lead to a neofeudal dystopia, unless we stumble into a terminal nuclear war. We have come full circle from the rule of nobility by divine right to the rule of financiers by the divine right of capital. Barring war, the power of the Jewish elites can only increase. Lord Blankfein, Great Lord Goldman Sachs.

      • hophmi
        April 6, 2016, 11:49 am

        “It always amazes me the extent to which you Zionists tirelessly search for examples of anti-Semitism. Once again I find myself compared to someone I never heard of. I gather that you have read him rather extensively. Actually, you seem quite obsessed with searching for the faintest hints of what you falsely claim is anti-Semitism. You wear your anti-Gentile chauvinism on your sleeve, Hophmi.”

        I imagine you’re amazed on a regular basis, especially since you talk a lot about antisemitism but don’t even know who the progenitor of the term is. Marr defined anti-semitism as being against the influence of Jewish culture on European, and particularly German, society. You’re worried about the influence of Jews on American society. That’s why you obsess over how much money Jews have, how many are billionaires, etc.

      • amigo
        April 6, 2016, 1:46 pm

        “That’s why you obsess over how much money Jews have, how many are billionaires, ” Hopknee

        Who cares how many Jews are billionaires .Best of luck to them.What we care about is those billionaires , (Saban and Adelson , for instance ) ,who use their wealth to ,

        A, Interfere in the affairs of sovereign nations , by attempting to bribe their leaders ( often in opposition to the wishes of their citizens ) to support the crimes of Israel .

        B, To pay for birthright trips for neophyte Congress ?Senate critters with the goal of brainwashing them and ensuring they start their careers as servants of Israel instead of those who elected them.

        C, Support the construction of illegal squats on land stolen from Palestinians.

        There,s lots more , but you get the idea which is not the point of this post.It is offered as food for thought for those readers who might be fooled by your attempts to raise the specter of antisemitism where none exists.

      • hophmi
        April 6, 2016, 3:31 pm

        “Who cares how many Jews are billionaires”

        Apparently, Keith does, and he’s not the only one here who does.

        ” .Best of luck to them.What we care about is those billionaires , (Saban and Adelson , for instance ) ,who use their wealth to

        A, Interfere in the affairs of sovereign nations , by attempting to bribe their leaders ( often in opposition to the wishes of their citizens ) to support the crimes of Israel .”

        To bribe who? You mean, they lobby for a cause that they believe in like, oh, EVERYONE ELSE IN AMERICA?

        This you call “Interfering in the affairs of sovereign nations.” Hey, Amigo! Guess what? Both are American citizens. So they’re not interfering in anybody’s affairs. They’re lobbying their government, which they have a perfect constitutional right to do. Your language about “interfering in the affairs of sovereign nations” is antisemitic hate speech meant to cast them not as Americans doing what they believe is right, but as Jewish fifth columnists attempting to consciously undermine the United States for not doing their bidding. I guess you’d say that Muslim-Americans who lobby Congress to support investigations into Egyptian war crimes are also interfering in the affairs of sovereign nations. What a bigot you are.

        “B, To pay for birthright trips for neophyte Congress ?Senate critters with the goal of brainwashing them and ensuring they start their careers as servants of Israel instead of those who elected them.”

        Guess what, Amigo? No one is required to go on an AICE trip (where, by the way, members of Congress will hear from both Israelis and Palestinians). You’re more than welcome to organize trips to the West Bank and Gaza for the same group of people.

        “C, Support the construction of illegal squats on land stolen from Palestinians.”

        Haim Saban is supporting settlement construction? In any event, Americans support all kinds of causes. Some I agree with, some I don’t. But I don’t question people’s patriotism over it.

        There,s lots more , but you get the idea which is not the point of this post.It is offered as food for thought for those readers who might be fooled by your attempts to raise the specter of antisemitism where none exists.”

      • amigo
        April 6, 2016, 5:35 pm

        “Guess what, Amigo? No one is required to go on an AICE trip ” hopknee

        Guess what hoppy , the last time this subject came up you got a well deserved pasting.You never learn , do ya –sucker. Poor Israel.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/freshmen-congresspeople-sabotage/

      • amigo
        April 6, 2016, 5:43 pm

        “Guess what, Amigo? No one is required to go on an AICE trip” hopknee

        Last time it was the “AEIF”.

        Are there two groups of , 5th column Israel firsters buying off congress critters.

      • Keith
        April 6, 2016, 6:08 pm

        HOPHMI- “I imagine you’re amazed on a regular basis, especially since you talk a lot about antisemitism but don’t even know who the progenitor of the term is.”

        Well, if it isn’t Mr. you-are-an-anti-Semite himself pointing fingers yet again. It is because of Zionists like you that I came to realize that not only was the accusation of anti-Semitism a useful weapon in your Zionist tool kit, but also a key element in the creation of internal Zionist solidarity. Perceived anti-Semitism is a core component of the Zionist ideology and of Jewish Zionist power seeking. I have no interest in Marr or his history. You obviously only bring him up in an attempt to conflate me with him in your typical dishonest fashion in an attempt to stifle discussion of an important aspect of contemporary political economy.

        HOPHMI- “That’s why you obsess over how much money Jews have, how many are billionaires, etc.”

        Oh, I hardly obsess over it. In fact, I am less concerned with the ethnic/religious makeup of the oligarchy than with the fact of oligarchy, as you should be if you had a progressive bone in your body. A core feature of capitalism is the monetization of power. Money is power, economic power in fluid form, the primary instrument of social control. Jewish money has become an issue because of the extent to which it has become such a significant factor in influencing the direction of the political economy. That such a relatively small minority is such an overwhelmingly significant source of campaign finances is shocking. And if you think that I am a fan of the non-Jewish billionaires, you are nuts. We don’t need more non-Jewish billionaires, we need to rid ourselves of ALL billionaires. Wealth and power are much too concentrated in our society and these issues need to be discussed.

      • amigo
        April 6, 2016, 6:30 pm

        Hoppy , here,s a good read for a truth seeking Israel firster in the fifth column whose patriotism to a foreign nation is unquestionable.

        “10 Places AIPAC Would Never Show Members of Congress on Their Upcoming Propaganda Trip
        A tour of the “real Israel” would show members of Congress the ugly truth behind Israel’s propaganda.”alternet

        http://www.alternet.org/world/10-places-aipac-would-never-show-members-congress-their-upcoming-propaganda-trip

      • ritzl
        April 6, 2016, 7:01 pm

        @Keith. April 6, 2016, 10:32 am

        Great summary comment. Great thread.

      • hophmi
        April 8, 2016, 10:20 pm

        For Keith, there’s such a thing as “Jewish money”, apparently, and he has an issue with it.

        How long is this bigot going to be permitted to stay here?

      • Keith
        April 9, 2016, 12:26 am

        HOPHMI- “How long is this bigot going to be permitted to stay here?”

        Well, if it isn’t Mr. insults and accusations come pay me a visit. Trying to improve your image by associating your name with mine? An act of desperation to be sure, but in your case probably justified.

      • Sibiriak
        April 9, 2016, 12:43 am

        hophmi: For Keith, there’s such a thing as “Jewish money”, apparently, and he has an issue with it. How long is this bigot going to be permitted to stay here?
        ——————-

        Hophmi, I presume you post here at MW to persuade people, not simply to vent frustration and anger.

        If that is the case, I suggest you would be better served engaging in substantive argument rather than ad hominem attacks.

        On the substance, here’s my view.

        Would it make any real difference if we talked about Zionist Jewish money instead of Jewish money supporting Zionism? I don’t think so.

        Simple facts: Jews have money. Some have lots of it. There are more than quite a few Jewish millionaires and billionaires.

        Now if most Jewish millionaires and billionaires spent their money politically just like generic millionaires and billionaires — you know, pushing for a system that favors the top 1%, pushing tax cuts or whatever–there would be no reason to talk about “Jewish money”.

        But they don’t. Jewish money is also being spent in huge amounts on particularly Jewish issues–like Zionism and support for Israeli governments.

        So how do you talk about the reality of Jewish support for Zionism without mentioning the Jewish money? Should we speak about the obvious fact of Jewish support for Israel, but be prohibited from mentioning that such support often comes in the form of…. yes, believe it or not… money?

        Is J.J. Goldberg a bigot and an antisemite? You know, the smart Jewish fellow who wrote the seminal book, Jewish Power: Inside the American Jewish Establishment.” I don’t think so.

        Now, if someone rants on about Jewish money being behind a secret Jewish conspiracy to control a world government, to control the global financial system, to foment wars and revolutions and so on, so that Jews can rule the world — yes, that it antisemitic. And it’s simply false.

        But to say that Jewish money is being used to support Zionism– that’s not antisemitic, that’s simply reality.

      • Keith
        April 9, 2016, 11:45 am

        HOPHMI- “For Keith, there’s such a thing as “Jewish money”, apparently, and he has an issue with it….How long is this bigot going to be permitted to stay here?”

        Has Phil Weiss ever used the phrase “Jewish money”? Do you think that Phil is a bigot who should be banned from Mondoweiss?

    • JWalters
      April 4, 2016, 5:36 pm

      Good points. It’s pretty obvious by now that the charge of anti-Semitism is used to shut down discussions that have nothing to do with anti-Semitism. The kinds of demographic facts you mention are, like any other facts, legitimate topics of analysis and discussion.

      For example, Cosa Nostra was demographically “over-represented” by Italians. Why? Because criminal gangs use ethnic solidarity as one method to protect themselves from infiltration. But no one thinks ALL Italians belong to Cosa Nostra. So even if there were a gang of Bernie Madoff-type Jewish bankers, most people would not conclude that ALL Jews were members of that gang.

      The flagrantly bogus use of the anti-Semitism charge, however, is a red flag. It does suggest somebody is trying to hide something. In the case of Israel, war crimes and war profiteering would be plausible candidates.

      • Citizen
        April 4, 2016, 10:33 pm

        Aren’t the native Americans overrepresented in high beam steel work? When I worked in the Chicago area steel mills they had all those high-paying jobs. The Poles had most steel mill foreman jobs, if memory serves.

      • JWalters
        April 5, 2016, 6:26 pm

        Citizen, good examples. More demographic situations where there should be nothing wrong with an objective look at the facts.

    • hophmi
      April 9, 2016, 9:19 am

      Money doesn’t have a religion. I’ve never seen anyone here refer to “Muslim money”.

      You’re using anti-Semitic language, and it is in no way ad hominem to point that out. I’m sorry if you’re unable or unwilling to accept your biases.

      • oldgeezer
        April 9, 2016, 10:02 am

        Of course money doesn’t have religion. Some/many of the people who possess it and use it do. Don’t be an ass. I personally tend to view the phrase “Jewish money” unfavourably but your argument regarding that particular phrase only makes you look stupid.

      • Keith
        April 9, 2016, 10:49 am

        HOPHMI- “Money doesn’t have a religion. I’ve never seen anyone here refer to “Muslim money”.

        HOPHMI (2/19/16)- “Lol. Yeah. Like Harvard (and Georgetown and many others) don’t accept Saudi money with strings attached to teach Middle Eastern Studies with an Arabist slant.” http://mondoweiss.net/2016/02/law-firm-pulls-250000-gift-to-harvard-over-palestine-event-demonstrating-zionisms-pervasiveness/#comment-825893

      • Sibiriak
        April 9, 2016, 11:09 am

        hophmi: Money doesn’t have a religion.
        ———————

        Is that inanity the most substantive response you could muster?

        “Jewish money” simply means money owned by Jews (religious or not). “Muslim money” would refer to money owned by Muslims, or perhaps money used in Islamic forms of banking and finance (Google it). By itself, the expression “Jewish money” is no more anti-Semitic than “Muslim money” is anti-Islamic. I normally don’t use either expression myself, but I don’t have a problem if others use them in an honest way.

        You’re using anti-Semitic language

        Nonsense. Are you going to falsely accuse Philip Weiss of using anti-Semitic language as well?

        A few examples (emphasis added):

        “‘JTA’ reports that as much as 2/3 of Democratic money comes from Jewish donors”

        [ Philip Weiss: ]Where the Jews stand on Obama matters not just because of the Jewish vote, which is significant in key swing states such as Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio, but also because of Jewish money. The 2012 presidential election will be the first since a Supreme Court ruling allowing unlimited corporate giving to candidates. The Obama campaign has said it will need more money than ever because big business tends to lean Republican

        http://mondoweiss.net/2011/06/jta-reports-that-as-much-as-23-of-democratic-money-comes-from-jewish-donors/
        ————————-

        Graham and Rubio are dependent on pro-Israel money in bid for White House

        : [Philip Weiss:] But the media are afraid to touch it because it seems to feed into anti-semitic tropes, Jewish influence. When Lindsey Graham explicitly describes it as Jewish influence , though in his case they’re pushing on an open door.

        Possibly this money is generational? It is older Jews who see Israel as a fulfillment of the Never-again vow they made after the Holocaust. So can J Street point to a younger group of Jewish donors who are opposed to the occupation?

        And are there any billionaires (of any religion or ethnicity) who are involved in the presidential race who are anti-Zionist, who want Israel to become a state of its citizens, all its citizens, rather than just the Jewish ones?

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/lindsey-graham-dependent/
        —————–

        Follow the money, stupid

        [Philip Weiss:] When US journalists assert that Romney is playing up the Israel issue to win Jewish votes from Obama, I’ve repeatedly said that they are hiding the more important battle, for cash. James Besser in the Jewish Week agrees with me:

        So why are Jewish Republicans spending millions portraying Obama as a threat to the Jewish state?

        The reason is money. While Jewish voting isn’t very Israel-focused, Jewish campaign giving is — and especially the mega-giving that is playing a bigger role than ever in Election 2012. Tarring Obama as anti-Israel, while not influencing many Jewish votes, galvanizes the growing base of wealthy pro-Israel givers and provides a platform for their generally hard-line views, one more front in the internal Jewish debate over Israel’s future.

        Jewish Republicans aren’t indifferent to the possibility of picking up some extra Jewish votes, especially in critical states like Florida, but few are naive enough to believe there’s a chance of winning over enough to make a real difference in the final vote tally. Jewish votes — a drop in the huge electoral bucket — are much less important than Israel-focused campaign cash.

        Cf. http://mondoweiss.net/2012/08/follow-the-money-stupid/

        ————–

        “Will Graham’s gaffe about ‘all-Jewish cabinet’ get the MSM to talk about pro-Israel money?”

        [Phillip Weiss:] TPM did the story straight, as a reflection of Jewish funding of Republicans; and Andrew Silow-Carroll at the New Jersey Jewish News takes the story seriously. He says there’s a deep pool of Jewish money– and it’s justified by the Holocaust.

        The truth is that there is a deep pool of Jewish money available to candidates, and that the Republican contenders, especially on the second tier, are angling for it. They remember how Sheldon Adelson, the Jewish philanthropist and casino mogul, kept the candidacy of Newt Gingrich alive long after the rest of the world put a fork in it. Establishing one’s pro-Israel bona fides has become a pillar of Republican politics. As The New York Times reported earlier this month, for the first time in more than a decade, Senate Republicans raised more pro-Israel money during the 2014 election cycle than their Democratic counterparts […]

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/grahams-jewish-cabinet/

        ——————————

        Take the right position on Israel and you can raise 1/4 million, Senate candidate is advised

        [Philip Weiss:] This is a reminder that you cannot honestly describe the formation of Middle East policy without acknowledging that Jews are principals in the establishment, and Jewish wealth is a significant factor in public life.

        Walt wasn’t naive; he was brave, he had tenure and decided that the cost to his ambition was worth his freedom to state his beliefs. Maybe Yglesias and other MSM journalists should emulate him now that another 1000 Palestinians have been slaughtered.

        Andrew Sullivan agrees the subject is important, and says the internet has liberated us to say so.

        not so long ago, anyone saying that Jewish donor money made an even-handed approach to Israel-Palestine a pretty dead letter would be deemed ipso facto an anti-Semite.

        More to the point, such a view would not be allowed into print in any mainstream outlet. It would be regarded as an anti-Semitic trope – even if it were factually true.It’s as if a libel law did not allow for the truth as a defense!..

        It’s also a matter of record, I think, that there is no way I could have written or published anything along these lines before the blogging era. Having my own space to think out loud, outside the parameters of an existing institution, without all the caution around the subject that was baked deep in Washington journalism, was critical to my changing views in response to changing facts. The intimidation had an effect. It was designed to.

        The good news is that America is finding a way to talk about this, and American Jews, confident and unthreatened, are participating in the conversation.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/position-candidate-advised/
        —————————

        That’s right, Hophmi, Americans, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, are growing increasingly confident and unthreatened by false “anti-Semitism” allegations.

        Get over it.

  5. Mooser
    April 5, 2016, 8:02 pm

    “More demographic situations where there should be nothing wrong with an objective look at the facts.”

    Just don’t look down!

    • bryan
      April 6, 2016, 5:35 am

      Is it not perfectly legitimate to look at the “over-representation” of men / whites / natives / theists / WASPs / Old Etonians within business / law / journalism / government / the academy, etc., etc. To give some innocent examples:

      (1) Recently there has been much focus in Britain on the dominance of privately educated natives within acting and many other professions; e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/education-35641061
      (2) No one bats an eyelid when attention is drawn to the shocking lack of diversity (esp. blacks / women) within the board-rooms of top companies; e.g. http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/29/news/economy/mcdonalds-ceo-diversity/
      (3) In an age when atheists form a majority of many European populations, and a significant minority in American society, you can look high and low for any professed non-believer in the US Congress / Supreme Court etc.; e.g. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/atheists-in-congress_n_3944108.html
      (4) For the most abused (yet utterly dominant) minority in the Western world, look no further than the alumnae of a small school in Berkshire, called Eton College, which has furnished Britain with 19 Prime Ministers (so far – if Boris ever succeeds David Cameron, or any one of a “preposterous” number of Old Etonians in the Cameron inner policy circle we will soon reach 20) see http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/14/gove-attacks-preposterous-number-old-etonians-cameron-cabinet Old Etonians also dominate the higher reaches of print and television journalism, and many other professions, suffering, as one member of the club admitted, ” a stigma that is slightly above ‘paedophile’ in the media in a gallery of infamy”. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton_College#Old_Etonians

      It is surely perfectly legitimate to map the contours of power within any society, including the nexus of nepotism (Kennedy, Bush, Clinton, Trump), cronyism, collegiality, influence, status, and privilege. Sometimes, as in the examples I have offered, this merely warps social values and blocks the advancement of those outside of the elite groups. Sometimes it has far more disastrous impacts, and here I would cite the Mearsheimer & Walt analysis of the tightly-knit group of neocon ideologues (some Jewish, some not) who brought us the Iraq War and all the disasters that came in its wake.

      Nor is this approach anti-Jewish: the small minority of establishment Jews who wield disproportionate power are no more typical of their communities than are the majority of Etonians (Eton College is only one of dozens of schools within the area.) Nor is this diatribe driven by any personal animosity on my part: many Old Etonians are highly educated and very talented and worthy people. My complaint is with the system, which permits the very privileged scholars of one small school to furnish the privileged universities of Oxford and Cambridge with more students than the approximately 15% of the UK population who live below the poverty line and are in receipt of free school meals. Non-elite Jews have contributed as much as any community to advocate diversity and break down barriers of privilege within society, but their efforts have been counter-acted by the elite who have (not just in the US but in the UK and elsewhere) made a Mephistophelean contract with privilege and power, in the name of Zionism, in order to shore up Israel’s defences.

      • ritzl
        April 6, 2016, 7:14 pm

        Thanks bryan.

        REALLY good thread.

  6. Ossinev
    April 6, 2016, 2:05 pm

    Funny how one can be totally unaware of the background or even hidden hypocrisy in individuals who you hitherto automatically respected through the simple assumption actor = intellect. In this case an “iconic” British Nobel Prize winning actress “Dame” Helen Mirren.

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.713094

    Now watch her magnificent performance at the Israeli Film Festival awards 2015 in Los Angeles.

    Warning have your sick bucket close by.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/helen-mirren-against-israel-boycott-its-the-craziest-idea/

    She tells us of her wonderful experiences of working on a kibbutz and sleeping on the beach at Eilat. I wonder does her Israel include Judland and Samerland or the Gaza ghetto and if she ever got to visit Hebron and witness and share the deep cultural experience of her wonderful female Israeli fellow travellers throwing buckets of excrement from their balconies on to native Palestinians walking below as the army of her beloved Israel watches on approvingly.

    Ah well I suppose that`s life. as you get older you discover more and more about people and those you once admired reveal their true characters as hypocritical lying sycophants.

    BOYCOTT UGLY APARTHEID ISRAEL
    BOYCOTT THOSE WHO SLAVISHLY SUPPORT APARTHEID ISRAEL

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      April 6, 2016, 3:13 pm

      I did not know all that about Mirren! Sick bucket indeed.

      I’ve always really admired her as an actress and a person, but now she’ll have to join Hilary Mantel and J.K Rowling on the ”talented but with obnoxious views” list. And sleeping on the beach? Aint that cute? I wonder if she’d have spoken of how cool it was to hang out at barbies in Cape Town in the 1970s? Of course she never ever would.

      BTW I think it’s ”Oscar wining actress”, not ”Nobel winning actress”.

    • ritzl
      April 6, 2016, 6:01 pm

      Yeah, and when does Mirren play a Palestinian woman fighting to get her artwork back that Israel stole from cleansed West Jerusalem homes 70 years ago.

      I didn’t think so.

      Is that one of the compromises that everyone (including Sanders) keeps saying the Palestinians have to make for “serious” negotiations — adopt the attitude that when Nazis do it it’s evil and needs correcting no matter how long it takes, but when Jews-who-became-Israel do it it must be forgiven immediately and [pre-]unconditionally.

      Yep. I’d pay double to see the film about the Palestinian woman, iff it had an unambiguous, happy ending.

      • Boomer
        April 7, 2016, 5:57 am

        re “adopt the attitude that when Nazis do it it’s evil and needs correcting no matter how long it takes, but when Jews-who-became-Israel do it it must be forgiven immediately and [pre-]unconditionally.”

        and never mentioned.

  7. Ossinev
    April 8, 2016, 9:25 am

    @MDM
    Oscar not Nobel. Thanks for the correction. In my defense I was feeling a little sick and confused at the time.

  8. Ossinev
    April 8, 2016, 1:36 pm

    Another one surfaces from the JSIL loving swamp.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Culture/On-2nd-Israel-visit-Kevin-Costner-dismisses-BDS-champion-Roger-Waters-450668

    “I don’t ask anyone’s permission to travel,” Costner said in an interview Tuesday.”

    I don`t need anyones permission to boycott Mirren and Costner

Leave a Reply