As many as 1 million Israelis have left for the U.S.

US Politics
on 114 Comments

“Can Israel bring home its 1 million US Expats?” was the headline on an article in the Jerusalem Post 3 weeks ago; and it has gotten very little attention, though the article states bluntly that as many as 1 million Israelis are now living in the U.S.

“[B]etween 750,000 and 1 million Israelis live in the country,” says Israel’s US Embassy, though others put the figure as low as 200,000.

If you walk around the Upper West Side, you know something’s up, from the Hebrew you can hear on Broadway; but this is an important story for two reasons, demographic and spiritual.

First, Israel has long claimed to be a majority Jewish state (as if that justifies Jews’ higher status). Right now the numbers of Jews and Palestinians between the river and the sea are said to be equal, 6.5 million to 6.5 million. If 1 million Jews are living outside the country– and the Post article refers to the expats as “Jews” — that means it’s likely that there are more Palestinians than Jews in the lands over which Israel is exercising sovereignty.

That would mean a Jewish minority ruling a non-Jewish majority under the aegis of “the Jewish state”: which just seals the deal on the contested “apartheid” label.

The other reason this story is important is that it shows that for all the propaganda about Israel being the safest place in the world for Jews, and Israel being the Jewish “home,” and Jews in Israel “living the dream,” Jews themselves do not seem to be swayed by the argument. Israel has never traditionally been the top choice for emigrating Jews; and it’s not now, either.

“In recent years, Israel has lost more people to the United States than it has gained,” the article says– by 17,700 to 13,000 over three years.

That outflow apparently came in the latest year on record, 2015; 16,700 Israelis left while 8,500 came in, Haaretz reports. In talks, John Mearsheimer has called the trend “reverse aliyah.”

Back in 2011 Gideon Levy reported that 100,000 Israelis hold German passports; and he noted the irony that Israel is not a safe place for Jews (or non-Jews either):

If our forefathers dreamt of an Israeli passport to escape from Europe, there are many among us who are now dreaming of a second passport to escape to Europe.

He also said the crisis was generated by the fact that Israel hadn’t figured out its constitutional structure:

If the Palestinian people already had one real passport, maybe the Israelis wouldn’t need two.

We have heard many anecdotal stories about Israelis leaving, because they do not see a future in living in a state increasingly isolated from the world. This article is more evidence of that trend. It deserves a lot more attention– a 60 Minutes report exposing the claim that Israel is the safest place for Jews, or some other investigative project on why these Israelis are leaving. Don’t hold your breath.

Thanks to Scott Roth. 

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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114 Responses

  1. mcohen..
    August 24, 2017, 5:39 pm

    I hope that in the next 5 years 80% of jews have left the land that is called israel and spread over the earth to strenghten communities in the diaspora so judaism can continue to grow in number and in peace.

    • Kaisa of Finland
      August 24, 2017, 7:03 pm

      mcohen:

      “I hope that in the next 5 years 80% of jews have left the land that is called israel and spread over the earth to strenghten communities in the diaspora so judaism can continue to grow in number and in peace..”

      But what about the Zionist fanatics?? Who wants them??

      • pabelmont
        August 25, 2017, 11:52 am

        Probably the Israeli Jews now leaving Israel (BTW: are all those 1,000,000 Israeli expats in USA Jews?) are leftists like other Jews living in NYC’s upper West Side. That leaves the Jewish religious fanatics and territorial-acquisition fanatics more and more alone (apart from Palestinians) inside (greater) Israel.

      • Mooser
        August 25, 2017, 12:57 pm

        “But what about the Zionist fanatics?? Who wants them??”

        They will probably try to open painless irredentistry clinics wherever they go.

      • RoHa
        August 26, 2017, 8:31 am

        One of your best yet, Mooser.

    • oldgeezer
      August 24, 2017, 11:42 pm

      I would be fine with that even though i dispute the existance of any god.

      The problem is the racist zionists in terms of israel (and racists belief in whatever elsewhere).

      They are truly scum of the earth.

    • Danaa
      August 25, 2017, 6:53 pm

      mcohen – not quite right on this score. israelis, when they live abroad, tend to congregate in their own israeli communities rather than make much of a bridge to the local Jews. Indeed, Israeli culture deeply separates them from most “Jewish cultures” especially when you take religion into consideration.

      Most of the israelis who leave israel – to never return (whether they plan on it or not) are secular, and too much jewish religion is exactly one of the things they escape from. Israel is becoming increasingly more religious, and the guys with kippas are now in evidence everywhere, when once you could count them on one hand. The people who live in the tel Aviv and haifa Hi Tech bubble, for the most part, are repelled by all the overt Jewish symbols and certainly by much of the observant self-righteous, holier than thou pronouncements. In Israel, I am told, the two communities – the ultra-secular and the observant/orthodox/traditional do not mix socially at all. They don’t intermarry and don’t share the same values.

      So when the secular (especially from Hi-Tech sectors) come to a place like the US or the UK or Germany and are all too glad to integrate with their non-Jewish but also non-religious new neighbours and co-workers. from experience, I know at least 4 such families, whose children married non-Jewish Americans. That despite going to Israeli camps in the summer, despite visiting israel several times, and despite speaking Hebrew. In the end, it’s the American college life that’s so attractive to second generation ex-Israelis. None I know actually got a new spouse from the “Old country”.

      So don’t count on ex-Israelis strengthening Jewish “diaspora”. The ex-Israelis will make their own diaspora that will have only very limited association with the indigenous Jewish ones, and over time they diverge more and more.

      • Aallen573
        August 26, 2017, 8:54 am

        They may be Jewish through religious beliefs but the term Israeli has no basis, since over 95% of them originated from Europe, parents and themselves have European passports and speak a European language.

      • Danaa
        August 26, 2017, 7:23 pm

        AAlen – they consider themselves culturally Israeli, which to them means speaking hebrew, a language most jewish Americans don’t speak at all. The entire israeli culture revolves around the language, and hebrew is radically different from European languages that israelis, for the most part don’t speak. Most of the secular israelis don’t even think of themselves as Jewish and follow none of the halachic dictates. They may do Passover but again it is part of a culture to them rather than any great affinity with the religion.

        That was my point – Jewish culture in the US or UK is vastly divergent from israeli culture. Therefore the two do not converge when Israelis move to the US.

    • CigarGod
      August 26, 2017, 9:35 am

      What % of the 80% are peaceful zionists?

      • Elizabeth Block
        August 27, 2017, 3:25 pm

        What’s a peaceful Zionist?
        An Israeli who has never served in the IDF, who has never helped enforce the Occupation?
        An Israeli who does not live on stolen land, or in a house confiscated from a Palestinian?
        An Israeli who did not go to a university built on the ruins of a Palestinian village?
        An Israeli who has voted for a politician who is ready and willing to do what is necessary to make a just peace? (Oh, there aren’t any, are there?)

  2. amigo
    August 24, 2017, 7:54 pm

    The question is , how will they manage being treated like everyone else.No exclusivity.Just full and equal rights .

    No Jews only “communities”. Men having to sit next to women , (in short skirts and showing them a thong or two.) in the back of the bus or in the front . Worse still , they may even have the odd Arab sharing the same seat .

    No anthem of their own.No walking around the neighbourhood armed to the teeth .No beating up Eritreans after the game.

    I could almost feel sorry for them.

  3. Sally Parker
    August 24, 2017, 7:59 pm

    Israel is a not a safe haven. Today 2017, the biggest existential threat to Jews are unrealistic Zionists and Neocons with access to nuclear bombs.
    How do you get half of America to swallow a cyanide pill? You smile sweetly, and explain that it’s a lemon drop. Hillary and her army of Neocons did just this when they disguised war with Russia by calling it a “no fly zone” or worse yet a “safe zone” over Syria. In effect, they were promoting a game of nuclear chicken with Russia placing Israel/Palestine at ground zero.
    I get the idea that Neocons believe that wars are always winnable, and like any TV series, defeat only happens to the other guy. The Times of Israel reported on an op ed printed in the Israel National News that called for dropping atomic bombs, 30 each, on Iran and Germany. See the reference below.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/op-ed-calls-on-israel-to-nuke-germany-iran/
    The Israel Nation News does not seem to realize that promoting a preemptive first strike on Iran would encourage Iranians to plan the same thing for Israel. A first strike would by no means make Israel safer. It would create a whole army displaced people with ideas of revenge. These days, atomic bombs can be miniaturized to fit in a suitcase.
    The Greater Israel crowd seems convinced of the belief that the most aggressive policy is the safest policy. For the price of the Iraq war, an estimated three trillion dollars, America could have paid Iraq three billion dollars a year for then next thousand years. Three billion dollars would pay for a lot of good will.
    How much sense does it make to worry about a second Holocaust, march half the Jews in the world into an area that could be destroyed by a single atomic bomb, and then do your best to start war with Russia?

    • pabelmont
      August 25, 2017, 12:02 pm

      “For the price of the Iraq war, an estimated three trillion dollars, America could have paid Iraq three billion dollars a year for then next thousand years. Three billion dollars would pay for a lot of good will.”

      Comment: it would be even cheaper, because global warming will wipe us all out (or maybe just Iraq) long before 1000 years! ;-)

      “How do you get half of America to swallow a cyanide pill? You smile sweetly, and explain that it’s a lemon drop. ”

      Comment: this seems to have been Hillary’s electoral plan for 2016. Almost worked!

      • Keith
        August 25, 2017, 4:50 pm

        PABELMONT- “Comment: it would be even cheaper, because global warming will wipe us all out (or maybe just Iraq) long before 1000 years! ;-)”

        I have concluded that there is a high probability of entering runaway global warming within the next five years. With CO2 at 410 ppm and climbing, it is hard to believe otherwise. That represents a 46% increase in concentration with an equivalent increase in solar retention which will last for centuries unless proactive carbon sequestration measures are taken, which won’t happen anytime soon. And once the Arctic methane begins escaping in quantities, it could be all over. The accelerating global warming we are seeing now is based upon much lower concentrations. Cheers!

  4. Juan R.
    August 24, 2017, 9:55 pm

    8,343,000 people live in Israel for the right reasons. The reverse aliyah trend
    has been decreasing over the past 5 years. World wide anti-Semitism
    is helping Israel to grow and proper.

    • JosephA
      August 25, 2017, 1:09 am

      What, pray tell, are the right reasons? I will get some popcorn ready, can’t wait to hear your explanation!

    • Eva Smagacz
      August 25, 2017, 9:01 am

      What are right reasons for creating apartheid?19/19

    • Misterioso
      August 25, 2017, 11:48 am

      @Juan R

      Reality:

      Why Do A Third of Israelis Want To Leave The Country?
      The Forward, March 22, 2017 By Naomi Zeveloff
      “A third of Jewish Israelis would leave the country if they could, according to a poll conducted by Masa Israeli, a group looking at the divisions of Jewish society in Israel.

      “It found that secular Jews were the most likely to want to emigrate, with 36% saying they would leave the country if they could. Orthodox Jews were the least likely to want to emigrate; only 7% said they would leave. The poll, which was reported by the Walla! news site, found that while 44% of secular Jewish Israelis identify as Israelis foremost, 83% of traditional and 90% of religious Jewish Israelis identify as Jews foremost.

      “The poll was conducted ahead of a conference called the “Israeli Journey to Change” in the Knesset which is looking for common ground in Israel.

      “ ‘The survey data indicates a problem with a sense of identity, connection and belonging to the people, to the land and to the state among a growing part of society in Israel and that reality already has created a rift and split in all of Israeli society,’ said Masa Israeli director, Uri Cohen.”

      http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.806869
      EXCERPT:
      “More Israelis Left Israel Than Moved Back in Six Year Record. 16,700 left and 8,500 came back in 2015, in first year since 2009 that more Israelis exited than returned.” By Lior Dattel. Aug 15, 2017, Haaretz.

      Also, it seems that support for Israel is in decline in the U.S., especially among all important youth. No surprise!!

      “Support for Israel on Campus Drops by ‘Devastating’ 27%: Study” – The Forward, June 21/17
      The Brand Israel Group, a coalition of volunteer advertising and marketing specialists, has released a survey that shows a significant decrease in Israel’s approval rating among Americans.

      “’The future of America no longer believe that Israel shares their values. This is huge! Devastating,’” Fern Oppenheim, a co-founder of BIG, told The Times of Israel. While approval of Israel among American college students dropped 27% between the group’s 2010 and 2016 surveys, Israel’s approval rating among all Americans dropped 14 points, from 76% to 62%.”

      Furthermore, regarding the USA: http://forward.com/news/ national/376097/study-israel- losing-support-among- democrats-minorities- millennials/ The Forward July 2, 2017 ”Study: Israel Losing Support Among Democrats, Minorities, Millennials ‘It appears that the more Americans learn about Israel, the less they like it.’”

      Also, and very significantly, support for Israel among American Jewish college students is in decline:
      Times of Israel, June 21/17:
      http://www.timesofisrael.com/devastating-survey-shows-huge-loss-of-israel-support-among-jewish-college-students/

      Of the near one million Israeli Jews who have emigrated, thousands are moving to Germany, including Holocaust survivors who receive much better treatment there than in Israel.

      “[Shoah] Survivors’ protest makes foreign journalists gasp, security vanish” http://www.haaretz.com/news/survivors-protest-makes-foreign-journalists-gasp-security-vanish-1.226913.

      http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3388445,00.html
      “Shoah survivors forced back to Germany due to Israel’s lack of restitution laws” Ines Ehrlich Published: 04.16.07, 11:32 / Israel News
      EXCERPT: “Documentary shows Israel the worst place for Holocaust survivors to live throughout Western world. Hundreds protest outside Knesset, demand government help survivors with financial difficulties “Holocaust survivors have left Israel to live out the rest of their days in Germany due to the better conditions they receive there, according to a documentary program broadcast Tuesday night by Israel’s Channel 2 television.”

      • Danaa
        August 26, 2017, 3:29 pm

        Misterioso, these were good sources. I think your reply and mine to JuanR (yours being the by far better sourced) complement each other. I tend to project ahead, based on trends that are reasonably well supported. Inside Israel there is much talk about the splitting apart of society along several seams. Here we address the religious/secular divide but there are other, troubling fault lines and one of your sources mentioned the educational/underemployment divide. Indeed, robust neoliberal policies, coupled with self-segragation (Haredi) and discrimination (Arabs) have taken a huge toll on the Inequality index in Israel. IT has, I believe an even worse inequality than in the US, and getting worse ever faster.

      • Keith
        August 26, 2017, 7:53 pm

        DANAA- ” IT has, I believe an even worse inequality than in the US, and getting worse ever faster.”

        Indeed, writing in 2007, Joel Kovel indicates that “…it comes as a shock to learn that Israel has over the brief period of its life gone from being one of the most egalitarian countries in the world to the one with the greatest structural inequality of any industrialized nation, indeed, twice so in comparison to its patron.” (p109, “Overcoming Zionism,” Joel Kovel). What many people may not be aware of is that some of the more prominent neocons served as advisers to Netanyahu in the 1990s and pushed him to implement neoliberalism, which he did.

    • Danaa
      August 25, 2017, 7:09 pm

      Actually, that’s not true. The figures of 8M+ count many israelis who have already left, because it is assumed they will return. That’s an open secret but everyone in israel knows. There is hardly a family that doesn’t count at least one of their members who emigrated, even if it was supposedly “temprary”. For some it is, but for many it’s permanent.

      I don’t denty that the birth rate is high, especially among the religious but therein is the biggest problem. The secular and the traditional/observant are diverging rapidly in israel. As I said above, they don’t even socialize together much, and I am not even taking into account the ultra-orthodox. Already, the religious exceed the secular in israel’s educational institutes – in elementary schools, the ratio is 3:2 religious to secular. Which means they receive differring education programs and generally don’t walk in the same circles. After all, it is not possible for a secular to be happily married with an observant, virtually by definition. This is the end result of Judaism being so strict about inteer-relationships, customs and values. One of the two has to convert – either to religious or to secular. for there to be any kind of a match.

      The result is that israeli society is fast splitting into at least 4 distinct and barely relating branches: the secular, the traditional/observant, the ultra-orthodox and the non-Jewish/Arab. The latter account for nearly 25% of that number you quoted. With this kind of separation in another decade you will have several distinct bubbles that do not inter-mingle. Since there’ll be more religious, their rules and preferences will prevail, making it ever less comfortable for the secular. Who will continue to leave in droves.

      Also, BTW, it is not true that the reverse aliyah slowed down. That contention is just the official story. The reality is something else.

  5. johneill
    August 24, 2017, 11:12 pm

    unless and until every synagogue in the world casts ballots, israel cannot represent judaism, let alone pretend to ‘jewish democracy’. are these expats sick of the concept? or sick of being singled out for justifying it – and so proselytizing ethnic nationalism in america? and at what point will america disallow entry for (violent, if not all) settlers, as israel has done for the entire palestinian diaspora, and lately, left-wing jewish activists? if the settlers are ever evacuated, they’ll always be welcome in d.c.

  6. wdr
    August 25, 2017, 4:38 am

    Contrary to what is asserted here, the Jewish population of Israel is the fastest growing Western population group in the world, and one of the only Western population groups which is above the replacement level, i.e., that it will grow by natural population growth, even without further immigration. This is in part because of the Charedi population, but the growth pattern also exists among the non-Charedi population. According to demographers, by the 2050s the Jewish population of Israel will reach 14 million, and the total population of the country (pre-1967 boundaries) will be 18 million. As to Israelis in the US, according to one website (which gives precise statistics) there are 213,000 speakers of Hebrew in the US. There are 7 million US citizens living outside the US, so this seems pretty normal, since it includes college students, visitors, etc.

    • John O
      August 25, 2017, 9:15 am

      Would you care to give links to the sources of your population estimates? Your definition of “Western” would be useful, too.

  7. LHunter
    August 25, 2017, 7:10 am

    mcohon

    It’s just a matter of time until the Palestinians are fully represented in all facets of society in Palestine/Israel – whatever it may be named.

    I’ve always wondered just how badly will the Zionists be viewed and treated when it all comes crashing down like it did for the Nazis.

    Zionism is foddor for anti-Semites – Richard Spencer’s latest diatribes prove that. He is now calling himself and his ilk “White Zionists.” All this is happening at the same time that the Palestinian movement is being entrenched in the counter left movements with the likes of Linda Sarsour. Interesting times.

    It may just be that those jews who do leave israel (the 80% you refer to) find themselves being chased out of certain communities by the White Zionists who seem to be on an upsurge fuelled in part by the policies of the only “true” democracy in the middle east. As amigo says in this comment section “I could almost feel sorry for them”

    Almost.

  8. Kay24
    August 25, 2017, 7:25 am

    Israeli leaders, when it suits them, keep saying they are under “existential threat” consistently, which must give their people a feeling of insecurity. Perhaps now that is backfiring.

    Maybe if Israel ends the decades old occupation, stops the land grabs, and the inhumane treatment of those they occupy, they will not provoke their victims into wanting to resist, even violently. It is a natural reaction by desperate people in a hopeless situation.
    How long can Israel keep blaming it’s victims? At least the rest of the world seems to get that.

  9. Eva Smagacz
    August 25, 2017, 9:06 am

    I hope that the name “White Zionists” will catch up in the media.
    This is such an elegant (free and reaching millions) solution to spreading the information about the core supremacist ideology that created Israel.20/20

  10. Vera Gottlieb
    August 25, 2017, 10:16 am

    Oy vei…

  11. Ossinev
    August 25, 2017, 10:17 am

    @WDR
    “Contrary to what is asserted here, the Jewish population of Israel is the fastest growing Western population group in the world, and one of the only Western population groups which is above the replacement level”

    You must be either using a self designed world map (possible) or owning up to the reality that Zioland is simply a “Western” Colonial project.

    Last time I looked at a world map it was situated in the Middle East – you know amongst all those other MIDDLE EAST countries and populations.

  12. Balfour
    August 25, 2017, 11:38 am

    My daughters’ public elementary school educated a sizable number of Israeli & Arabic speaking immigrant children. In the main hallway, several doors away from the Principals Office, was a 9 foot by 16 foot map and mural celebrating Greater Israel, complete with photographs of the “Golan”( Syrian Heights), East Jerusalem & Hebron. The map was annotated in Hebrew, but, in Hebrew script, the Occupied Territories were identified as “Judea & Samaria”. I wrote a letter to the Town’s local newspaper and I questioned the map’s appropriateness in a public school setting and I asked why the local school board was condoning a political policy not shared by our Federal government. I was roundedly dismissed as either a “Hater”, a “Crank” or an “Anti-Semite” by those who replied, only one individual raised the question of what must have gone through the minds of the young Arab children when they past by this mural on a daily basis.

  13. Sibiriak
    August 25, 2017, 12:18 pm

    Israel’s population to surge to 20 million by 2065

    Study shows Jewish population to grow to 81% of Israel’s total, with massive growth in haredi community, which will make up 32% of Israel

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/229972
    ————————————

    […]According to data released by the Central Bureau of Statistics, Israel’s population will continue to grow at a fairly steady rate, with the overall growth rate averaging 1.8% over the next half a century, compared to 1.82% from 2006-2015.

    Unlike most industrialized countries, Israel’s birth rate has remained well above the replacement rate, with a total fertility rate (the average number of children a woman has) of 3.1, compared to 1.85 for the US, 1.58 for the European Union, 1.39 in Japan, and 2.35 worldwide.

    Israel will grow to 9 million citizens next year, hitting 10 million 2024, 11 million by 2030, 12 million by 2035, and 13 million by 2039. By 2065, Israel will likely be home to 19.954 million citizens, 23 and a half times the number at the time of Israel’s birth in 1948.

    […]Haredi Jews, who currently constitute about 12% of the population, at present have a growth rate of 3.92%, more than double the national rate.

    […]Between 2017 and 2065, the haredi rate of growth is expected to average 3.89%, compared to 1.03% for non-haredi Jews and 1.55% for Israeli Arabs, not including residents of the Palestinian Authority. Israel’s Arab population is expected to remain stable at 21% through 2051, then decline gradually to 19% by 2063.

    […]By 2043, the haredi population will surpass Israel’s Arab population, and by 2065 haredim are expected to number nearly 6.5 million, or 32% of Israel’s total population, compared to 3.8 million Arabs and 9.66 million non-haredi Jews.

    • Danaa
      August 25, 2017, 7:23 pm

      These numbers don’t even mention the growth rate among the observant/traditional/orthodox, which also exceeds that of the secular though not as much as the Haredi one does. At some point – already around 2020-2022, the total religious pJewish opulation will exceed that of the non-religious one by as much as 5%, rising to a ratio of 60-40% by 2025. By 2030 it will be even more lop-sided.

      What that means for politics and for life in israel is easy to guess – more extreme white zionism, more enforcement of halacha, more neighborhoods taken over by the religious and more and more separation. Since the majority of emigrants from israel will be secular, the internal ratio of religious to not religious will accelerate.

      Basically, israel is well on its way to becoming a theocracy, ruled by halacha as much as Iran is ruled by Sharia. When the theocracy is coupled with ethnic supremacy, I think we can all guess where this will lead and what kind of country this will become.

      I mentioned Iran, but i think that over the same period of time Iran will actually start liberalizing. I predict that in another 10 years the scarves will be all but gone except for the more devout rural populations. Who knows, by such a time it may be Iran that will be the “only Democracy in the Middle east” while israel sinks to being ruled by a cabal of religious mumblers who will convert the Kneset to the old sanhedrin.

    • RoHa
      August 26, 2017, 8:26 am

      But they will need to keep the Arabs to do all the work!

  14. Sibiriak
    August 25, 2017, 12:35 pm

    “Israel’s demographic future: Crowded and very religious”

    http://www.jta.org/2017/05/19/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/israels-demographic-future-crowded-and-very-religious
    ————————————————-

    “Israel will have the highest population density in the Western world,” Sergio DellaPergola, a preeminent Israeli demographer and member of the report’s steering committee, told JTA. “Interestingly, haredim will overtake Arabs as the largest minority.”

    The Central Bureau of Statistics revised upward its previous projection, made in 2012, that the population will reach 15.5 million in 2059, with 4.5 million haredim. DellaPergola said the bureau had wrongly assumed Israel’s fertility rate would continue to decline.

    […}Israel is growing rapidly mostly because of its birth rate, which DellaPergola said is the highest of the world’s 100 most developed countries…

  15. Sibiriak
    August 25, 2017, 12:47 pm

    Israel Net migration rate

    https://www.indexmundi.com/israel/net_migration_rate.html

    ——————————–

    Net migration rate: 2.2 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2016 est.)

    Definition: This entry includes the figure for the difference between the number of persons entering and leaving a country during the year per 1,000 persons (based on midyear population). An excess of persons entering the country is referred to as net immigration (e.g., 3.56 migrants/1,000 population); an excess of persons leaving the country as net emigration (e.g., -9.26 migrants/1,000 population). The net migration rate indicates the contribution of migration to the overall level of population change.

  16. Sibiriak
    August 25, 2017, 1:13 pm

    Circular migration–good for Israel. Wikipedia:
    ——————————————————-

    According to public opinion polls, the main motives for leaving Israel have not been the political and security situation, but include desire for higher living standards, pursuit of work opportunities and/or professional advancement, and higher education. Many Israelis with degrees in scientific or engineering fields have emigrated abroad, largely due to lack of job opportunities. From Israel’s establishment in May 1948 to December 2006, about 400,000 doctors and academics left Israel. In 2009, Israel’s Council for Higher Education informed the Knesset’s Education Committee that 25% of Israel’s academics were living overseas, and that Israel had the highest human capital flight rate in the world.

    However, an OECD estimate put the highly educated Israeli emigrant rate at 5.3 per 1,000 highly educated Israelis, meaning that Israel actually retains more of its highly educated population than many other developed countries.

    In addition, the majority of Israelis who emigrate eventually return after extended periods abroad . In 2007, the Israeli government began a programme to encourage Israelis living abroad to return; since then, the number of returning Israelis has doubled, and in 2010, Israeli expatriates, including academics, researchers, technical professionals, and business managers, began returning in record numbers. Israel launched additional programmes to open new opportunities in scientific fields to encourage Israeli scientists and researchers living abroad to return home.

    These programmes have since succeeded in luring many Israeli scientists back home. [emphasis added]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight#Israel

    ————————————————————————

    According to demographer Pini Herman, this circular migration has been an economic boon to Israel. Israel does not have the technological, academic, and other infrastructural resources to absorb its disproportionate number of highly trained and skilled population, second only to the United States.

    As a result, many Israelis have worked overseas for extended periods of time. Upon their return, they have often attracted or repatriated with them to Israel new infrastructure, such as that provided by companies like as Intel, Google, Microsoft, and IBM. [42] [emphasis added]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerida#Israeli_emigrants_in_the_Diaspora

  17. irishmoses
    August 25, 2017, 2:37 pm

    Nice postings Sibiriak. Very effective rebuttal. Wishful thinking is a common characteristic on MW.

    My conclusion: Israel’s future is very secure. It will be a Jewish-majority democracy and its occupation of the Palestinian territories will slowly become accepted as de facto then de jure annexation. The world will move on, a process that is already far-along.

    The only hope for the Palestinians is to be allowed a gradual integration into Israeli society with limited rights and limited autonomy in Areas A and B. BDS notwithstanding, it is all over but the shouting. Truly sad but sadly true.

    • Mooser
      August 25, 2017, 4:38 pm

      “My conclusion: Israel’s future is very secure”

      Considering the perfect impartiality of Sibiariak’s sources.

      • irishmoses
        August 25, 2017, 9:02 pm

        Della Pergola is pretty reputable and the rest of it has a professional look to it as Danaa seems to agree. Sibiriak has also struck me as pretty balanced in all of this, particularly in comparison to some of our more persistent Hasbaristas.

      • Mooser
        August 25, 2017, 11:20 pm

        I don’t doubt his statistics, much. It’s the effect of all those haredim I wonder about. I wonder if the further rise of the haredi and the settlers will be a reason to stay, or go.

      • wdr
        August 27, 2017, 5:57 am

        Monthly, precise figures about the numbers of births and deaths in Israel, by religious and ethnic group, are readily available online- look up Israel-Demography- Dept. of Statistics. They are certainly very accurate- more accurate, probably, than similar figures for the US. You will see the very high growth rate for Israel’s Jews. This is not only because the birth rate is very high, but also because the death rate is very low- the Israeli lifespan is among the highest in the world- for males, I think it is the highest in the world.

      • amigo
        August 27, 2017, 9:04 am

        “Monthly, precise figures about the numbers of births and deaths in Israel, by religious and ethnic group, are readily available online- look up Israel-Demography- Dept. of Statistics. They are certainly very accurate- more accurate, probably, than similar figures for the US.”wdr

        But obviously not sufficiently accurate to post the link.

        Fail wdr.

      • Mooser
        August 27, 2017, 11:49 am

        “the Israeli lifespan is among the highest in the world- for males,”

        ROTFLMSJAO! What a clever way of saying that Israel’s population is heavily weighted toward (and by) the aging and elderly.

      • amigo
        August 27, 2017, 12:36 pm

        ” the Israeli lifespan is among the highest in the world- for males, I think it is the highest in the world.”wdr

        Wrong again w(fake news )dr

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

        Israel is 5th on the list for males and 9th for females.It is 8th when the two are combined.

        Btw, are the 780,000 illegal foreign squatters in OCCUPIED PALESTINE /SYRIAN HEIGHTS , included in the dept of statistics figure.They are not living in Israel , and should not be included in the figures.

      • catalan
        August 27, 2017, 12:52 pm

        “What a clever way of saying that Israel’s population is heavily weighted toward (and by) the aging and elderly.” Mooser
        That might be but I wonder how you conclude that. According to wiki Israeli median age is 29 which is way younger than the other OECD countries.

    • gamal
      August 25, 2017, 5:22 pm

      “it is all over but the shouting”

      come on man buck up, when things look bad, a car never runs so sweet as just the second before the engine blows, everybody feels low sometimes, but and i am not suggesting take the Irish from your name (800 hundred years and counting of resistance, famine to the magdalen laundry, because it still goes on)

      just do what the little boy hauteur Luke does, let it out and then back to whatever the struggle is for you, this’ll iron out those kinks, America is courting disaster, we are very optimistic on this sunny afternoon.

    • Danaa
      August 28, 2017, 3:57 am

      Well, irishmoses, it ain’t over till the fat lady sings, as they say. Yes, the near future for palestinians does not look promising at the moment. But neither is Israel’s, not when you take into account that this country is well on its way to being a theocracy coupled with ultra-right nationalism. I commented above on what the numbers look like for israel – the Demographic trends point to an absolute majority of religious and ultra-religious before 2025. With the haredis reaching 25%. With them living mostly on some kind of welfare assistance that’s a large chunk of very very backward, under-educated and reactionary segment for the country’s economy to carry. Add to that the Arab population at 20-22% which is also not doing well economically due to extremely discriminatory apartheid like rules, and of course a very large part of the Mizrahi who are still struggling economically, and you get a country where fewer than 30% will carry the full economic burden.

      Also as I pointed out and Keith elaborated on, israel now has just about the highest inequality of any country among the OECD. This inequality index is getting more and more skewed, even as the run of the mill young persons struggle to get adequate housing and other basic necessities.

      So it’ll be a combustible combination that spells ultimately, something more like a failed state than a “start-up” nation. A very dangerous one, I should say. If you read today’s story on MW from Ofir about Bennett’s insidious plan to crypto-insert “Jeiwsh” “values” into secular schools, you can see where this increasing religiosity trend is going. With over 35% of israelis wishing the could leave (per recent poll), many will do just that even as the ones they leave behind will be the more religious and less productive ones. As the religious gain power and infringe on education, freedom of speech, democratic institutions etc. the seculars – who don’t want to leave – will no doubt fight back.

      One of my past predictions was that in a few years some strange and unexpected alliances will start forming. Including potentially, alliances between the educated Jewish seculars and the more educated Arab seculars. There may be new parties. It is, in fact, possible that many seculars will come to regard Arabic people who are not too religious and/or christians as less of a threat and more of a natural ally than their fellow jews who have kind of gone nuts with too much religiousity.

      Under this scenario, there’s no telling which way the cookie will crumble, including for the Palestinian residents of the west bank and Gaza.

      People don’t realize just how serious the gap is between secular and religious jews. Not just gap, but outright hostility. They basically despise each other. And no one know better than Jewish people in Israel just how crazy mad their religious bretherns can get. Judaism, which in America and other western countries is a relatively benign religion and/or culture can, in truth, be anything but. May be it’d be advisable for non-Jewish people outside israel, to pay more attention to what the old testament actually says, and Christians in particular would be well advised to try and imagine what it can be like when much of the biblical god’s admonishments are taken literally.

      Besides, the idea that Israel, as it is now has the slightest intention of “integrating” palestinians into its midst, even with limited rights, can be entertained only by those not so familiar with what Israeli reality actually is.

      • Maghlawatan
        August 28, 2017, 10:06 am

        Great comment.The trends all point to the same thing

      • irishmoses
        August 28, 2017, 10:41 am

        Thanks, Danaa, and thanks to Keith as well. As usual, I’ve learned a lot about these issues (and key elements of the global warming “debate” no less!) from the two of you.

        While I now see how difficult the future may be for Israelis, I still see little hope for the Palestinians, particularly under their current approach.

        As to Israel’s willingness to integrate Palestinians into their society, I see that as minimal window dressing at best.

        You are correct, I am totally unfamiliar with Israeli and Palestinian realities other than through my own reading and research. Fortunately, people like you have educated me and opened my eyes a bit.

  18. catalan
    August 25, 2017, 3:37 pm

    There are three assumptions in this article that I am not sure are correct. This calculation of 6.5 million on both sides includes Gaza. But Israel has given up on Gaza and is building walls around it. The two sides are at war but Gaza is not really a part of the Israeli state. The second assumption is that if the label Apartheid is applied all will be well and Israel will be forced to retreat or something. But this is a new age now with powerful countries like India, Chia, Brazil, and Russia who are interested in economics and are not keen on participating in boycotts and so on. Third, Israel has many ways to reduce the growth of the Palestinian population in the West Bank – for example, by regulating water, utilities, medical services, checkpoints and so on. Indeed, that’s what it is likely to do if the situation continues to deteriorate. In conclusion, none of this is great news for the Palestinians or at least those that envision an open and liberal state side by side with Israel.

    • Mooser
      August 25, 2017, 4:36 pm

      ” Third, Israel has many ways to reduce the growth of the Palestinian population in the West Bank – for example, by regulating water, utilities, medical services, checkpoints and so on.”

      They will want to consult the Torah first, so it can be done in accordance with Jewish law.

      • Talkback
        September 9, 2017, 4:03 am

        Genocide against the ‘Amalekites’ is a devine command, Mooser. It’s just a matter of re-labeling Palestinians or anybody else who Jews consider to be an enemy.

    • Maghlawatan
      August 28, 2017, 10:07 am

      Gaza is occupied. Israel controls everythibg

    • Misterioso
      September 8, 2017, 9:17 pm

      @catalan

      “… Gaza is not really a part of the Israeli state.” True.
      However, neither is the Palestinian West Bank, nor Palestinian East Jerusalem.
      Nor should we forget that the Golan Heights are part of Syria, not Israel. Also, Israel is illegally occupying Lebanon’s Shebaa Farms and the Kfarshuba hills.

      Security Council Resolution 446 (22 March 1979) “[Affirms] once more that the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 is applicable to the Arab territories OCCUPIED [my emphasis] by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem,

      “1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories OCCUPIED [my emphasis] since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;..”

      Security Council Resolution 465 (1 March 1980) “determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories OCCUPIED [my emphasis] since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity…”

      Israel’s 1980 annexation of East Jerusalem was unanimously rejected by the UN Security Council in Resolution 476 (June 30, 1980): “all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the OCCUPYING [my emphasis] Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

      On 17 December 1981, the UNSC unanimously passed Resolution 497, which declared Israel’s 14 December 1981 annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights “null and void.”

      UN Security Council Resolution 2334, December 23, 2016: “Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and reaffirming, inter alia, the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force,

      “Reaffirming the obligation of Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, and recalling the advisory opinion rendered on 9 July 2004 by the International Court of Justice,

      “Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions,….”

      “1. Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace;

      There is no special provision in international law that enables Israel to violate it with impunity.

      “Third, Israel has many ways to reduce the growth of the Palestinian population in the West Bank – for example, by regulating water, utilities, medical services, checkpoints and so on. Indeed, that’s what it is likely to do if the situation continues to deteriorate.”

      Spoken like a true fascist.

      “But this is a new age now with powerful countries like India, Chia, Brazil, and Russia who are interested in economics and are not keen on participating in boycotts and so on.”

      In 25 years there will be three billion Muslims worldwide; 600 million Arabs; 150 million Iranians and 150 million Turks. Obviously, the long term geopolitical and economic interests of the world community do not lie with racist, apartheid, brutal illegal occupier, rogue/pariah Israel.

      The handwriting is on the wall. It’s only a matter of time.

      • Mooser
        September 9, 2017, 12:56 pm

        “In 25 years there will be three billion Muslims worldwide; 600 million Arabs; 150 million Iranians and 150 million Turks.”

        “Maybe it has to do with the fact that Jews couldn’t have sex for nearly half the time…”
        “Jon s”

    • Talkback
      September 9, 2017, 4:11 am

      catalan: “Third, Israel has many ways to reduce the growth of the Palestinian population …”

      And there are still many more ways to learn from the Holocaust to refine its genocidal politics.

  19. Maghlawatan
    August 25, 2017, 3:59 pm

    A lot of the Isghaelis in the US are secular and better educated than the sabra rabble back home. The dynamics of Israel are very poor. V High birthrate of economically inactive Orthodox who are gaining the upper hand in the cultural sphere and turning the secular Schmucks who pay for everything away. If you were a thinking secular Jew would you want the Orthodox running the show?

  20. yonah fredman
    August 25, 2017, 6:55 pm

    I think the phrase that Maoists use is “the permanent revolution”, which infers if you’re not going forward you’re going backward, and this is part of the problem with leaving the Palestinian versus Zionist conflict unresolved for so long, that despite the fact that Israel’s existence is self proven, that Israel feels a need to prove it.

    There is something called the demographic problem, which currently is a question of votes in the Knesset. Meaning, how many votes in the Knesset are there for those who would vote to change the flag and the national anthem and the immigration laws.

    But aside from Knesset votes which is a practical consideration there is the propaganda aspect: Israel needs to claim itself as a refuge or a magnet or a natural home for all Jews, whereas it is not. (Only a small percentage of Jews are in the situation of refuge. The Jews in Europe, some of them, feel like moving to someplace welcoming like the United States, So whenever there is a migration driven by Jew hatred, which is the root cause of those Jews who feel unsafe in Europe, there will also be a percentage that heads towards Israel.)

    But in terms of magnet or natural home for all Jews, regarding the majority of nonIsraeli Jews, which is American Jews, there is no such feeling for Israel as a home. Those who support Israel, do so out of habit or a type of identification, but there is not such identification as to call it home, except for those very few who were raised to take Judaism to heart to such an extent that they also take the Zionist strands of Judaism to heart.

    Problems of underemployment of certain sectors, low education levels of certain sectors, raise questions of tax load and army responsibility problems that practically speaking are more pressing than the propaganda aspect of a negative aliya. Those who have lived in Israel are tied to Israel in a way that those who have only visited or never even visited do not possess and the concept of Israel as central to the Jewish experience is not negated by people who only live there for five years rather than for fifty years. For them, the Israel experience, including Hebrew, is an important part of their life experience.

    It is only the (regrettably negative idea of the) negation of the diaspora and the battle against the Palestinians that makes this a propaganda failure rather than something that can be seen as a natural ebb and flow. Government planners need to study this natural ebb and flow and factor it in when figuring out how to encourage the natural development of the country of the yehudim (and all its citizens) in the year 2017.

    • Annie Robbins
      August 25, 2017, 7:47 pm

      There is something called the demographic problem, which currently is a question of votes in the Knesset….

      currently, it is more than a question of votes in the Knesset. it is a matter of image. as it stands israel governs over millions of people who have no voice over that government. that image would be even worse if they continued to reference themselves as a “jewish state” when less than 1/2 the people are jewish. i think currently there are more non jews in the entire region of the mandate of palestine. the idea of a demographic problem is racist.

      It is only the .. negation of the diaspora and the battle against the Palestinians that makes this a propaganda failure rather than something that can be seen as a natural ebb and flow. Government planners need to study this natural ebb and flow and factor it in when figuring out how to encourage the natural development of the country … in the year 2017.

      why? what would be the point? maybe i am misunderstanding your meaning. do you mean it’s “only” the occupation and the israeli settlement expansion on palestinian land that prevent a “natural development of israel”? and when figuring out how to encourage the natural development of the country, in the year 2017, planners should ignore the occupation? that just doesn’t make sense to me. the “natural ebb and flow” of an apartheid country engaged in a decades long occupation would have to take that occupation into consideration in 2017. of course, ending the occupation would impact a “natural development of israel”. maybe i am not understanding your meaning.

      • wdr
        August 26, 2017, 1:43 am

        If Israel’s immediate neighbors were Sweden, Denmark, and Canada, there would obviously have been a peace treaty many years ago. Sadly, these are not Israel’s neighboring states. Nor was there a Palestinian state before 1967, when the West Bank and Gaza were in Arab hands- the West Bank was annexed by Jordan, Gaza was administered by Egypt. No one mentioned the millions of people who had no voice in their governments then. By the way, if there had been no 1967 War, what do you think the response of Egypt and Jordan to Palestinian nationalism would have been? It would obviously have been brutal, and would have made the response of Israel look like the vicar’s tea party.

      • straightline
        August 26, 2017, 11:42 am

        Let us imagine that a group of powerful countries including, say, Russia and China, tell Sweden that 55% of their country will be assigned to mostly recent immigrants, say, Poles. After this is declared, but before the assigned date for its commencement, the Poles attack the rest of Sweden and take another 23% including half of Stockholm. They drive out most of the Swedish inhabitants from this area, and prevent any return, allowing only Polish immigrants. Even the normally docile Scandinavians would have taken up pitchforks!

    • oldgeezer
      August 25, 2017, 9:41 pm

      @yonah

      No matter how many words you toss out you will not be able to normalize the core, and rank, racism that is at the heart of the zionist project.

      The core beliefs of zionism are every bit as repugnant and vile as those beliefs which have given rise to nazism, white supremacism and every other supremacist belief system. No moral person who views humanity as equals would do anything but spit upon the belief system. No amount of pontification can’t whitewash the abhorent nature and base that gives rise to such feelings.

      Indeed zionism has not walked down the road to a final solution as they nazis did. That said the discussion of final solutions have found a way into the norm of Israeli discourse and those views are expressed openly without any form of opprobrium whatsoever.

      You know it’s wrong but you can’t find the moral backbone to denounce such an outright evil. In your failure to do so you in effect give credence to those evil enough to suggest hitler was right.

      What goes around comes around. There is only one clear moral path here that treats all of us as humans with the same worth.

      As Mooser says, 2 billion Jews can’t be wrong. You can make the choice to side with 7 billion humans or the small percentage that might view Jewish people as lesser forms.

      I would hope you join with the majority of us who value all of humanity.

      • Annie Robbins
        August 25, 2017, 10:14 pm

        Indeed zionism has not walked down the road to a final solution as they nazis did. That said the discussion of final solutions have found a way into the norm of Israeli discourse

        have you read this yet? http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5007644,00.html

        Both parts of this conversations are probably not politically correct, but 25 years later, it appears that contempt for the Holocaust among central components of the Israeli Right has shifted from random conversations to the heart of public discourse. More and more Israeli Jews dare to express openly or implicitly that the main problem with the Holocaust was the selection of victims by Nazi Germany and their aides.

        this was published today!

      • oldgeezer
        August 26, 2017, 8:59 am

        @Annie

        Yes I saw that late last night. Unbelievable! Talk about spitting in the face of every victim of the nazis.

        And today I read they are secretly stripping thousands of non Jewish citizens of their citizenship. No notice. No judicial process. Just leave them stateless.

        Israel has completely gone off the rails. Lunacy.

      • Marnie
        August 27, 2017, 1:27 am

        “More and more Israeli Jews dare to express openly or implicitly that the main problem with the Holocaust was the selection of victims by Nazi Germany and their aides.”

        So we can finally say that the phrase “Never again” really the PC version of the original, which was Never again for us Jews, but the goyim – meh.

      • wdr
        August 27, 2017, 5:58 am

        Tell all that to the Jihadists- your message is more relevant for them.

      • Mooser
        September 9, 2017, 1:05 pm

        “As Mooser says, 2 billion Jews can’t be wrong.”

        Not 2 billion! And even if they were, who would dare to tell them so?

        But if we are talking about actual the number of Jews that exist, I’m not sure there’s enough to be right all the time.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 9, 2017, 2:10 pm

        But if we are talking about actual the number of Jews that exist, I’m not sure there’s enough to be right all the time.

        where’s your “ironclad data” to prove that?!

      • Mooser
        September 9, 2017, 6:46 pm

        “where’s your “ironclad data” to prove that?!”

        It’s true, I don’t have any. I guess we could ask them.

    • Mooser
      August 25, 2017, 11:09 pm

      And another chapter of that monumental work, “Yonah’s Excuse”, goes into the archive.

      • Maghlawatan
        August 28, 2017, 10:23 am

        It certainly won’t be the song of songs

      • Mooser
        August 29, 2017, 11:33 am

        “It certainly won’t be the song of songs”

        Well, maybe not. But it’s one hell of a song-and-dance routine.

    • RoHa
      August 26, 2017, 8:28 am

      “Implies”, not “infers”. It isn’t difficult to learn the difference.

    • Mooser
      August 27, 2017, 11:40 am

      “I think the phrase that Maoists use is “the permanent revolution”, which infers if you’re not going forward you’re going backward, “

      Yup, there’s nothing like being in “permanent revolution”, especially if you are a tradition-loving people like us Jews.

      • Maghlawatan
        August 28, 2017, 10:34 am

        Maoism was like Zionism. An attempt to override time and history. They don’t tend to end well. Reality is a bitch.

  21. irishmoses
    August 25, 2017, 10:59 pm

    Thanks, Gamal, I needed that. Great tune. Still, if you follow the Irish approach to ridding itself of oppressors, knocking pom heads proved the solution, not aimless wailing for pity while accepting the bribes of those unwilling to really get involved and help. After all, modern “terrorism” AKA freedom fighting against colonial oppressors and occupiers, was invented by the Irish.
    So if you can’t win the numbers game and if BDS proves futile, maybe the only solution is to go Irish. If you want it bad enough, you need to be willing to fight and die to get it. Plenty of historical examples of that working., Ireland being the first modern example.
    There’s some evidence of that willingness in the spate of suicide by knife incidents and in the recent al Aqsa confrontations, but to work, it would need to be something like widespread mass unarmed demonstrations marching on and nonviolently occupying settlements at the price of hundreds being killed in the effort. That would be a real attention getter and hard to Hasbara out of.
    The current course, IMHO, is a fool’s errand.
    Oops, Speaking of errant fools, I need to get back to Twitter Watch. It’s painful being an American. Is there an Irish right of return for us diaspora folks?

    • Mooser
      August 26, 2017, 1:12 am

      ” but to work, it would need to be something like widespread mass unarmed demonstrations marching on and nonviolently occupying settlements at the price of hundreds being killed in the effort.”

      How many hundreds you think it will take?

      • irishmoses
        August 26, 2017, 4:47 pm

        Who knows? How about a succession of Fridays post prayer service marches. Several hundred killed during each attempt. Eventually, the police desire to shoot unarmed protesters attempting to take back just 20 percent of Palestine from illegal settlers might wane as has happened in other places (e.g. Iran, 1979, India, 1948). The optics of hundreds of unarmed men, woman, and children being killed for demanding their freedom would be awfully powerful. But who knows? Maybe Jared K could wrap it up and tie a bow on it in a couple of weeks? Not holding my breath. Call it the Gandhi ploy. God knows suicide bombings and knifings and Gazan bottle rockets haven’t worked.

      • Mooser
        August 26, 2017, 5:31 pm

        ” Not holding my breath. Call it the Gandhi ploy.”

        Don’t hold your breath. You will need all of it to lead those hundreds.
        Certainly a new place for a Moses to lead them to.

      • RoHa
        August 26, 2017, 9:34 pm

        Israelis are not Iranians or British and Indian police. If the desire to kill Palestinians was ever going to wane, it would already have vanished.

        As for the “optics”, in the Western world, at least, such images would be suppressed or hastily swept aside and overwhelmed by some big story about a film star’s tits or nonsense about how Global Warming will kill us all.

        (I still think of optics as the science of light.)

      • irishmoses
        August 26, 2017, 10:15 pm

        Roha: See Gamal’s post and link above re Irish sunny afternoons.

      • irishmoses
        August 26, 2017, 10:32 pm

        Roha,
        The Shah’s police were reported to be brutal. I suspect the same was true of the British police forces in India (both Brit and Indian). All three were willing to kill, if ordered, to stop major demonstrations. However, there is a limit that can be reached when such police, when confronted with repeated nonviolent mass protest, become unwilling to keep pulling the trigger. When that point is reached (after hundreds of deaths) things can take a quick 180 and the masters can become the hunted. I don’t see Israeli police as immune from that possibility.

        As to the “optics” (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/optics) of such events, I think it would be difficult to quash once the carnage and death toll reached hundreds. Even the recent al Aqsa confrontation made enough media buzz that, astonishingly, Israel ultimately folded. That event may be a good template for the scenario I’m suggesting.

      • echinococcus
        August 27, 2017, 12:13 am

        Irish Moses,

        Apart from the fact that genocidal action is routinely upstaged in the “West” by tits* (and has never been unsuccessful because of the usual indignation comedy in that same West), the very essence of Zionism, its definition as a “Jewish state” in a time where the entire Earth is inhabited, necessarily means genocide. “Killing Palestinians” is what Zionism is. No way out of that.
        Also, why the insistence on so-called non violence? It may be a good tactic at times but assisting the Zionists by committing systematic mass suicide is not such a good idea.
        When you are under attack, the way to go is to inflict maximum damage on the aggressor.
        ——-
        * as was shrewdly observed by the Master, RoHa. I can confirm it –as a veteran tit-watcher.

      • Keith
        August 27, 2017, 1:12 am

        ROHA- “… nonsense about how Global Warming will kill us all.”

        There are some folks who fancy themselves intelligent who cannot, for some perverse reasson, accept the fact that they call greenhouse gases “greenhouse gases” for the obvious reason that they trap solar radiation. And that increased concentration of these gases causes global warming. And that starting in 1970, every 5 years the average temperature is greater than the previous five years. And that this warming will result in a positive feedback loop whereby runaway global warming is inevitable. Folks who consider themselves oh-so-smart, but cannot deal with empirical reality. Perhaps, in the 1990s this was understandable if not acceptable. In 2017, ignoring the rather obvious reality is indicative of rather severe ideological/psychological problems. You need to forget about punctuation and straighten up and fly right. Seriously. The two existential threats to the human species are nuclear war and environmental collapse due to global warming. By the way, 410 ppm of CO2 traps roughly 46% more solar energy than the baseline 280 ppm. You think that this is trivial? You think that this is nonsense, some sort of joke? You could be excused in the 1990s for your prejudices, but not in 2017 where the reality is so rather obvious.

      • Annie Robbins
        August 27, 2017, 2:41 am

        thanks keith, seriously.

      • RoHa
        August 27, 2017, 4:46 am

        Both the Iranian situation and the Indian situation were different from Palestine. In neither case did the police or the authorities behind the police have any interest in getting rid of the population that was protesting.

        But you may be right that even Israelis have sufficient humanity to get tired of killing. I hope you are. And perhaps the media would pay sufficient attention. I certainly have no better suggestion for the Palestinians.

        (Merriam-Webster? Surely you don’t think I would pay any attention to anything other than The One True Dictionary. And sometimes I am not happy with that.)

      • Mooser
        August 27, 2017, 12:29 pm

        “assisting the Zionists by committing systematic mass suicide is not such a good idea.”

        Yeah, I sorta wondered about that. Although my Scripture knowledge is scanty, I remember Moses delivering people to life.

      • irishmoses
        August 27, 2017, 1:31 pm

        echinococcus re violence vs nonviolence:

        While violent resistance would be legal and justifiable, it’s proved a loser for the Palestinians as the guided media will obediently focus only on the violence, ignoring the cause, the legalities, and the justifications, as in “Israel has a right to defend itself.”

      • irishmoses
        August 27, 2017, 1:50 pm

        Roha, re: Merriam, etc.

        Unfortunately, when I googled optics, your oxford dictionary didn’t come up even when I used its abbreviation “OECD”. So, in summary, if it don’t show up on google, it don’t exist. Kind a like Twitter, you only get so many characters.

        When I was in English 1A back in da day, my prof insisted we all buy a dictionary. I considered the OECD but it was 32 volumes vs 1 for the Big M. No brainer.

        We were also given an assignment to actually look up something in the OECD. I was then fascinated with the word “mons” and spent a good couple of hours delving into the OECD’s near treatise on the term.

        Incidentally, I was pleased to see my double-comma-ing of “astonishingly” in my earlier post survived your scrutiny.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        August 28, 2017, 11:43 am

        Keith:

        About Global Warming.. Sadly, we might get drowned (or suffocated) by our own s*it before that..

        https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/04/great-pacific-garbage-patch-ocean-plastic-trash

      • RoHa
        August 28, 2017, 11:19 pm

        Yes, the Earth has been warming since the end of the Little Ice Age, and the level of CO2 in the atmosphere has increased.

        Both of these are good things.

        A warmer Earth is beneficial for people. If we are lucky, it might get as warm as it was during the Mediaeval Warm Period. And more CO2 in the air will make the crops grow larger and faster, while using less water.

        What the CO2 probably won’t do is make the Earth too hot for us, either directly or through a water-vapour feedback. The Man-Made Global Warming hypothesis (AGM) has serious problems. A number of the major predictions of that hypothesis are failing. (E.g. Temperature is not rising at the predicted rate, there is no hot-spot in the equatorial troposphere, the correlation between temperature and outgoing radiation is direct rather than inverse. )

        And failing predictions mean a hypothesis is wrong.

        Naturally, the people who have spent their careers developing the hypothesis are trying to defend it. (And I think they should, if only to show that it cannot be defended.) But, for those of us who are not so committed, any attitude other than scepticism is a denial of scientific method.

        The ideological position is extraordinary. AGM was pushed into international politics by Margaret Thatcher, who was using it as a propaganda weapon against the coal miners. (https://www.john-daly.com/history.htm) Soon, nearly all governments began to give the idea lip service. But, astonishingly, it has become an article of faith both among the trendy-wendys of the pseudo-left (responsible for the media hysteria) and even among the few remaining scraps of the real left. And yet the policies that governments have enacted not only make a few rich people a lot richer (no surprise there) but also are frequently environmentally destructive and socially damaging.

        Scepticism about AGM is both scientifically respectable and socially responsible.

      • Keith
        August 29, 2017, 10:35 am

        ROHA- “Yes, the Earth has been warming since the end of the Little Ice Age, and the level of CO2 in the atmosphere has increased.”

        You are in deep denial. Earth’s natural CO2 level has occilated between 240 ppm and 280 ppm over thoudands of years. The increase up to 280 ppm has induced moderate warming, perhaps a good thing, perhaps not. The sudden explosion of CO2 to 410 ppm and rapidly climbing is totally unprecedented and indicates an unprecedented rapid warming beyond the ecosystem’s ability to adapt. It also portends disastrous feedback loops whereby the loss of polar ice results in increased solar absorption, and melting permafrost results in massive methane burps which will likely result in runaway global warming in the near future. There is a reason they call greenhouse gases “greenhouse gases,” and all of the denier websites with their handful of denier PhDs won’t change that reality. The only question is how folks deal with this reality. Since this topic is off topic and not suitable for lengthy discussion, this will be my last comment on this topic on this thread. I only pursued it this far because it illustrates the reality that most people logically defend their beliefs as best they can while irrationally ignoring empirical reality when it conflicts with these beliefs.

      • Mooser
        August 29, 2017, 10:58 am

        “Scepticism about AGM is both scientifically respectable and socially responsible.”

        And sometimes the devil’s advocate is just another nasty minor demon.

      • RoHa
        August 31, 2017, 12:27 am

        It is off topic, and yet you and pabelmont keep dragging it in. I only react to you two. So perhaps the moderators will allow me a final comment.

        Yes, CO2 levels have gone up. But it has not been proven that CO2 has any noticeable effect on the climate. There are reasons for thinking it does, but there are a number of solid studies in the technical literature which argue that it has very little effect.

        The potency of CO2 is an assumption built into the climate models from which the scary stories are derived. The postulated feedback loops are even more theoretical, and yet they, too, are built into the models.

        But the models are failures. Some of their major predictions have failed, and when predictions fail, it shows the hypothesis is not true. (Regardless of whether or not other predictions are verified.) The climate does not work that way. This is good reason for doubting the assumptions about CO2 and the feedback loops.

        And this is the empirical reality which has to be faced.

      • Mooser
        August 31, 2017, 5:25 pm

        “And this is the empirical reality which has to be faced.”

        You are right. If you live in Austrailia, and the climate breaks, how would you even know?

    • John O
      August 26, 2017, 3:15 am

      Check with the Irish Embassy – if you have an Irish grandparent, you can (I think) get an Irish (and hence EU) passport.

      • amigo
        August 26, 2017, 12:23 pm

        John O ,(and irishmoses) that is correct.If one of your parents/Grandparents is Irish you can be given citizenship..

        I might also point out that one of the concessions allowed under the Good Friday Agreement was that anyone born on the Island of Ireland –includes the North , can apply for Irish Citizenship.

        EU citizenship is automatic.

  22. wdr
    August 26, 2017, 1:52 am

    Some other comparisons which might be useful, in the context of the original claims in this thread. The populations of Israel and Jordan are almost identical: Israel 8.5 million, Jordan 7.9 million. The GDPs (Gross Domestic Products) of these two countries are as follows (from International Monetary Fund statistics 2016, online): Jordan $39 billion, Israel $318 billion. The population of Egypt is 96 million, eleven times that of Israel, Its GDP in 2016 was $332 billion, barely larger than Israel’s. In fact, the economic and demographic growth of Israel, especially during the past 15 years or so, has been one of the most impressive in the world, although under reported, and completely distorted on hostile sites like this one.

    • Mooser
      August 26, 2017, 12:40 pm

      “,Israel…most impressive in the world… and completely distorted on hostile sites like this one.”

      Why would that be “wdr”? Such an “impressive” country, and people are “hostile”?

      Considering the history and nature of Israel, a very simple explanation for the distortion and hostility faced by the world’s only Jewish nation-country presents itself.

  23. Ossinev
    August 26, 2017, 1:00 pm

    @Catalan
    ” Third, Israel has many ways to reduce the growth of the Palestinian population in the West Bank – for example, by regulating water, utilities, medical services, checkpoints and so on”

    You neglected to mention compulsory birth control and castration.Your wonderful ” only ” Democracy etc ” yawn yawn has already done a practice run.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/contraceptive-injections-ethiopian/

    Unfortunately the current drip drip extra judicial killing programme is time consuming , costly and a more comprehensive overt one would seriously undermine that “indispensable” eternal victim psychiatric prop.

  24. irishmoses
    August 26, 2017, 4:19 pm

    Re: John O and Amigo’s suggestions::
    Alas, like most Irish-Americans, my Irish roots go back to the 19th century. Today we are a polyglot mongrel-lot. I think I have long-shot angle though: My very New England brahmin wife recently discovered her maternal grandparents were Jews (horrors! accompanied by desperate pearl-clutching at the revelation). So, we go to Israel and she claims right-of–return citizenship rights, gets an Israeli passport and we wait a brief period until Israel is admitted into the EU at which point we quickly scoot to the Emerald Isle to live happily ever-after enjoying the afternoon sun that Gamal has promised me. Cool, huh?

    • RoHa
      August 26, 2017, 9:26 pm

      Sun? In Ireland?

      • irishmoses
        August 26, 2017, 10:16 pm

        Roha: See Gamal’s post and link above re Irish sunny afternoons.

      • amigo
        August 27, 2017, 6:07 am

        “Sun? In Ireland?” RoHa.

        We get a summer forecast every year on the first of May and this year Summer was slated to be on a Tuesday but our Met folks even got that wrong.It came the day before and nobody was prepared.

        However , the grass is always greener here.

  25. mcohen..
    August 26, 2017, 5:36 pm

    Irishmoses …why not move to israel.i am looking at real estate in israel.negev area and safed.once the peace deal is signed real estate prices will soar and the economy will grow.the window of opportunity is in the next 12 months

  26. irishmoses
    August 27, 2017, 12:06 am

    mcohen, John O, amigo, Mooser, and Roha:
    Attractive as the fantasy seems at times, I have no interest in abandoning my own country in a time of turmoil and distress. I’m here for the duration and hope we can work ourselves out of our current morass although I’ll be damned if I can see a way out of it. All our current contenders deserve pox-filled houses. A good plague might cull out the offal and leave us with some better choices. Scary times.

  27. uh...clem
    August 31, 2017, 12:48 am

    irishmoses:

    In my day it used to be called the OED for Oxford English Dictionary. I don’t think that would have changed. No wonder OECD didn’t find it.

    • Mooser
      August 31, 2017, 5:35 pm

      “No wonder OECD didn’t find it.”

      Nope, all I could find under OECD is Olde Englishe Compulsive Disorder. And don’t be too sure there isn’t a “Ye” in front of it!

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