If you genuinely back the Palestinian cause, you must support the right of return

Activism
on 95 Comments

There are some Israeli movements and individuals who show support for the Palestinians, but hide the fact that they are Zionist. There are also international activists that genuinely believe in these groups and support them because they are not aware of their real intentions. These groups, such as Breaking the Silence and others, do not recognise a clear definition of the two-state solution, one that is based on several UN resolutions – starting with Resolution 194, adopted in 1948, which stipulates the Right of Return for the Palestinian refugees.

These movements are trying to distance themselves from the UN resolutions. They do not want to recognize a two-state solution based on UN resolutions, including the Right of Return. Which means they support an idea of an unjust two-state solution, where a large part of Palestine is being used for the establishment of the Occupying State, and the State of Palestine is being turned into a large prison for the Palestinians.

The other tactic of these movements that exacerbates the conflict is that when they find Palestinians or pro-Palestinian groups who seek fame, they use them, giving them the opportunity to travel and raise money using the name of the resistance. These groups are Zionists, so they have the money, power and ability to pull strings and influence western governments, who prefer to deal with the flag of a radical, hostile Zionism. Their main aim is to deepen conflict and create a state of confusion among those who genuinely support and care about the Palestinian cause.

In the broader framework, it is clear that these Zionist movements seek to portray Israel as a democratic state, making people in the West confused about who are the real groups working for freedom and justice in Palestine. This image of a democratic Israeli state serves to boost the Occupation.

The fact of the matter is that Palestine was conquered by force. The Palestinian people were forcibly expelled, thousands upon thousands were savagely murdered, and thousands were arrested and thrown in a prison cell called the State Of Palestine.

The support of these movements is a crime against justice and it does an injustice to one of the most just causes in modern times, a cause which is exploited like a cow by some people.

These people and their movements of course are the names and groups you hear of in the media all the time, the ones you always hear about while the true activists and organizations work from the heart, under the radar, without public knowledge that they even exist, let alone all the front-line work that they do and all the time and energy they volunteer from their lives!

If you are truly and genuinely supporting the Palestinian cause from your heart, and not seeking money or fame, I ask you please, do not participate in campaigns that are full of misinformation. Please do not be complicit in the Zionist manipulation.

About Badee Dwaik

Badee Dwaik is the Coordinator of Human Rights Defenders Group in Palestine and an activist in Hebron.

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95 Responses

  1. Annie Robbins
    January 5, 2018, 3:52 pm

    i proudly support Palestinian right of return.

    • Citizen
      January 5, 2018, 9:01 pm

      Me too.

    • Robert D. Brooks
      January 6, 2018, 1:48 pm

      I have spent over 12 months spred over eight years on the ground in Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza, so naturally I salute the author’s review of the facts. However, my support for the Right of Return is not absolute: it depends on its parameters…How many returnees? How many generations qualify? According to what time schedule? To what lands/what land swaps? With what compensation to the returnee? With what–if any–linkage to other issues? So yes, let’s go for it, mindful of the complexity of the issue.

      • Talkback
        January 6, 2018, 2:45 pm

        Robert D. Brooks: “How many returnees?”

        As much as they want to exercise this right.

        Robert D. Brooks: “How many generations qualify? ”

        All of them. They all have refugee status.

        The rest of our questions can be worked out by the people who are specialized in incorporating Jewish immigrants and creating settlements for them. Do you think that they will think a second, if as many Jews were knocking on their doors?

      • Mooser
        January 6, 2018, 5:37 pm

        , “mindful of the complexity of the issue.”

        I don’t know, seems like you pretty much reduced it to it’s lowest common denominator; the Zionists kick the Palestinians out, and now the Zionists get to decide which ones and how many they will let back in.

        What makes you so sure the Zionists will always have the resources to dictate the question of who returns, BTW?

        Hows about we let the Zionists prove they have some right to be there at all, except as immigrants to a Palestinian State?

      • Maghlawatan
        January 7, 2018, 1:51 am

        A lot of refugees wouldn’t return imo. The most likely cases live in refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Israel could meet its obligations financially. But Israel always procrastinates. This is why Israel is in permanent crisis.

        If Israeli had been a real country with a stable population rooted in the land it might have been able to address it’s problems coherently. But everyone was moved onto bullshit Hebrew, cutting the link with the past and leaving the people ripe for shaftIng . The idea that Israel is forever is laughable. If Israel was a person it would struggle to tie its own shoelaces.

    • CigarGod
      January 6, 2018, 8:15 pm

      Certainly!
      But based on a legit definition…not the one Israel uses for Jews.

  2. MHughes976
    January 5, 2018, 3:59 pm

    The so-called occupation is really a continuing violent, rather hideous, process of conquest, I agree,

  3. Mooser
    January 5, 2018, 4:06 pm

    “These groups, such as Breaking the Silence and others, do not recognise a clear definition of the two-state solution, one that is based on several UN resolutions – starting with Resolution 194, adopted in 1948, which stipulates the Right of Return for the Palestinian refugees.”

    Is there somewhere we can go for the names of other organizations who are dealing in this subterfuge? Is there perhaps something in an group’s mission statement which is tell-tale?

    • Mooser
      January 5, 2018, 6:35 pm

      “These movements are trying to distance themselves from the UN resolutions. They do not want to recognize a two-state solution based on UN resolutions, including the Right of Return.”

      That would be the key difference? Hopefully that would be in a Mission Statement or similar.

      Or something they would, conversely, avoid or obfuscate.

  4. amigo
    January 5, 2018, 4:21 pm

    Right of return v right of aliyah.

    In th case of the former one is returning to ones home. In the latter . One is leaving one.s home to invade the home of the former.

    Why the confusion.

  5. catalan
    January 5, 2018, 4:59 pm

    This is an important point that many Israelis do not understand – there will never be a peace treaty without a right of return of the 8 or 9 million refugees and their descendants. The goal of BDS is the return of the refugees, nothing less. So whatever the complaints are about BDS, it behooves them to remember what the alternative looks like.

  6. RoHa
    January 5, 2018, 6:53 pm

    I wholeheartedly support the right of return.

    I used to halfheartedly support the two state solution, because I thought it a necessary step towards a united, just, Palestine with equal rights for all. But since I now believe the two states are not going to happen, I think some other route to justice in Palestine needs to be found. I regret that I have no idea what that route could be.

  7. echinococcus
    January 5, 2018, 7:10 pm

    There are some Israeli movements and individuals who show support for the Palestinians, but hide the fact that they are Zionist.

    I’ll bet you anything that there are many more of these in the US than in the Zionist entity and that they are the backbone of the Zionist strategy to break support to the Palestinian resistance.

    • Mooser
      January 5, 2018, 8:37 pm

      “I’ll bet you anything that there are many more of these in the US than in the Zionist entity and that they are the backbone of the Zionist strategy to break support to the Palestinian resistance.”

      Well, it sorta makes it hard to know who they are, if they have no names. So far we’ve got “Breaking the Silence” on the list. Do any of the others have names?

      • echinococcus
        January 6, 2018, 3:39 am

        Mooser,

        “Breaking the Silence” is definitely not in the US, and it does a useful job. There are a number of US outfits that are clearly tribal –some on the very shingle. Part of these, too, are useful at times, as a side effect of essentially undermining Palestinian resistance and the support to it. Some like “Peace Now” (whatever they mean by peace) are even officially listed as Zionist organizations fercrissakes. The most active ones seem to be primarily anti-Semitism hunters hellbent on taking down anti-Zionists and keeping all support to Palestinian resistance within a select circle of tribals and “liberals”.

        As you well know.

      • Mooser
        January 6, 2018, 12:07 pm

        So there’s “Breaking the Silence” and “Peace Now”. That makes two.
        Are there others?

      • echinococcus
        January 6, 2018, 1:48 pm

        Mooser,

        Agsain, “Breaking etc.” is not a US organization.
        Again, the most visible, explicitly tribal organization which, as described but ignored by your good self, ” primarily anti-Semitism hunters hellbent on taking down anti-Zionists and keeping all support to Palestinian resistance within a select circle of tribals and “liberals””, is obviously JVP.
        There is a certain number of similar organizations –I am sure you know them much better than I do.
        And no, I’m not saying that their action is entirely negative. They are useful –up to a point. As is Be Tselem.

      • Jon66
        January 6, 2018, 4:12 pm

        Echi,
        “And no, I’m not saying that their action is entirely negative. They are useful –up to a point. As is Be Tselem.”
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

      • Mooser
        January 6, 2018, 4:30 pm

        “There is a certain number of similar organizations –I am sure you know them much better than I do.”

        No, I don’t, so why not make it just a little easier for me?

        So far we’ve got “Breaking the Silence” (as you say, based in Israel) and “Peace Now” and “obviously Jewish Voice for Peace”.

        And we’ve got a positive mention for “Zochrot (zochrot.org), an Israeli NGO.”

      • Mooser
        January 6, 2018, 6:39 pm

        Well, well, well, look at who is calling Breaking the Silence “useful idiots”

        And who is Breaking the silence a “useful idiot” for, “Jon66”?

      • Talkback
        January 7, 2018, 5:18 am

        Mooser: “Well, well, well, look at who is calling Breaking the Silence “useful idiots””

        Here’s a bigger, more dishonest picture. jon66 always doubts the negative intention of Israeli soldiers when they kill Palestinan civilians. But as soon as soldiers come out and admit their guilt and the crimes they commit against Palestinias he calls them “useful idiots.”

        As he does with B’Tselem. The source he quotes to pervert its meaning and to justify soldier crimes and deligitimize Palestinian resistance against occupation soldiers.

    • Citizen
      January 5, 2018, 9:05 pm

      Yes, they are uncomfortable with what they know to be true in land under Israel’s control as it directly conflicts with basic American values, but they like the notion of having an insurance policy called the Jewish State.

  8. ritzl
    January 5, 2018, 8:02 pm

    I don’t know if it means anything, but I found it curious that when Trump gave Jerusalem to Israel, NOBODY couched that discussion in contrast using the Palestine position.

    Trump could well have “taken Jerusalem off the table” by “giving” East Jerusalem to a/some notional Palestinian state. NOBODY posed it that way.

    It’s very bizarre, to me, how rooted this whole Palestine/Israel discussion is in Israel-defined terms. That’s unfortunate. I don’t think it makes for a parity in the discussion, nor does it bode well for constructive conversation or a positive outcome.

    And yeah, I support the RoR.

  9. Stephen Shenfield
    January 5, 2018, 8:57 pm

    Breaking the Silence does a valuable job of publicizing testimony that is difficult for the Israeli authorities to discredit because it comes from their own former soldiers. It is unclear from the group’s website what their position is on the Palestinian issue or the right of return in particular. Perhaps they have no general position. Even if their concept of ‘occupation’ is limited the value of what they do should be acknowledged.

  10. Brewer
    January 6, 2018, 12:52 am

    The right of return is the very heart of the matter and the simplest to argue for. Anyone familiar with the History of the conflict knows this, which is why Zionists always attempt to divert debate to other issues or try to turn it to advantage by citing a fictitious exile and claiming the very same right. That this is ludicrous is very easy to demonstrate.
    A Palestinian can take you to the exact tract of land on which their parents or grandparents lived before being driven off by violence. No Zionist can do this, neither can they cite a time or circumstance in which their ancestors left. I doubt any could actually name that ancestor.
    The right of return is enshrined in International Law.
    The right to enliven myth and legend is confined to writers of fiction and fantasy.

    • LHunter
      January 7, 2018, 10:46 pm

      So well said – thanks Brewer.

      I hope to return one day with my wife and kids and sit under an olive tree dipping bread into Palestinian hummous just as my father and our descendants have done for hundreds of years. I’m even willing to share my bread with my Jewish neighbours just as my father and our descendants have done for hundreds of years .

      • LHunter
        January 9, 2018, 2:52 pm

        LHunter – ancestors not descendants for the foregoing – ooops

  11. wdr
    January 6, 2018, 4:56 am

    The “right of return” only applies if at all to those who left in 1948, not to their descendants,
    who are citizens of whatever country they live in. These descendants have no more of a “right of return” than Jews in Chicago have a right to return to Russia, which their ancestors fled in 1890.
    Refugee status does NOT extend in international law to the descendants of refugees who were born elsewhere. No
    Israeli government would ever agree to any Palestinians returning. If Palestinian advocates want to go without an independent country for another 70 years, advocating a general “right of return” is a surefire way of guaranteeing it.

    • Talkback
      January 6, 2018, 8:24 am

      wdr: “The “right of return” only applies if at all to those who left in 1948, not to their descendants, who are citizens of whatever country they live in.”

      WRONG. You just made that up.

      wde: “Refugee status does NOT extend in international law to the descendants of refugees who were born elsewhere.”

      WRONG.

      Not only under UNWRA but even under UNHCR the refugee status can pass unto descendants. And all refugees have a right to return. Otherwise they wouldn’t have refugee status. According to customary international law (as envisaged in partition resolution 181) the first generation of refugees should be Israelis. And according to Israel’s law also their descendants..

      wdr: These descendants have no more of a “right of return”” than Jews in Chicago have a right to return to Russia …”

      … or to Palestine. Good job! You just deligitimized the State of Israel in particular and Zionism in general. Bear in mind that all Jews who entered Palestine after 1919 were not registered as Palestinian or Ottoman refugees who would have a right to return to Palestine. Including their descendants.

      • LHunter
        January 7, 2018, 9:51 pm

        Thanks Talkback

        Dont you wish there were more wdr’s in the Zionist camp? it would sure make it easier on us anti-Zionists to refute such rubbish or point out the hypocracy they can’t seem to detect.

        The right of return for Jews who have no and never had any ties to historic Israel while denying the same right to indigenous Palestinians who have direct traceable ties to historic Palestine serves as yet another example of Zionisms racist tenets.

      • Talkback
        January 8, 2018, 12:00 pm

        You’re welcome. And there are only “wdr”‘s in the Zionist camp. ;)

  12. Ossinev
    January 6, 2018, 9:08 am

    @WDR
    ” These descendants have no more of a “right of return” than Jews in Chicago have a right to return to Russia, which their ancestors fled in 1890″

    Of course they don`t and they are really being very silly if they believe that and should be reminded that they only have the “right of return” to the land which their “ancestors” fled in 70 AD

    Thank you so much for clarifying – these Jewish people really do need to get their act together.

    • larick
      January 6, 2018, 12:16 pm

      “70 AD” is a canard. First of all, the idea that all the Jews of Palestine were expelled in 70AD is a myth. Please consult Prof. Shlomo Sands of Tel Aviv University. Only the political class of Jerusalem were expelled. Secondly, the Askenazi Jews of Eastern and Central Europe most certainly have no heredity from Palestinian Jewry. There is not one shred of evidence connecting them to Roman era Palestine or from any other era. Furthermore, Jewish sovereignty in Palestine was very real, and very limited, both in time and scale. The Kingdom of David and a united Jewish political power existed for only about 150 years and did not necessarilty constitute a majority in Palestine, at a given time. The fact that European Zionists believed in mythic Jewish hegemony and found it convenient to use such beliefs to dispossess a truly indigenous people does not in any way constitute anything but the creation of a colonial settler state being forced on innocent people by imperial violent force. It is completely unjustifiable and all the phony archeology the government of Israel has produced does not alter that.

      • Nathan
        January 6, 2018, 2:01 pm

        Larick – Prof Sand (not Sands) is an expert in the history of cinema. He is not an authority on ancient or medieval history.

        It’s not too clear why so many people here comment on the descent of Ashkenazic Jews. It really doesn’t make a difference if they are the descendants of the Martians or of the Israelites. They are now Israelis. They were born in Tel-Aviv or in Haifa or in a kibbutz or in a moshav. I understand that for the anti-Israel crowd the passage of time is irrelevant, but still it is worthwhile bringing to your attention that it’s been four-five generations already.

        You mentioned as a matter of fact that there was a Kingdom of David. Since you are anti-Israel, no one will argue with you about it. However, bear in mind that generally in the comments section of Mondoweiss, David is regarded to be a myth. You note that the kingdom lasted for 150 years, and you note that “Jewish hegemony” is mythical. Well, it’s not really important if your sense of history is accurate (and it’s not), but do take to heart that you have contradicted yourself. If the kingdom lasted 150 years, it is not mythical (or if it’s mythical, there was no kingdom that lasted 150 years).

      • Brewer
        January 6, 2018, 3:37 pm

        Nathan.
        Speaking of contradictions:

        “It really doesn’t make a difference if they are the descendants of the Martians or of the Israelites. They are now Israelis. They were born in Tel-Aviv or in Haifa or in a kibbutz or in a moshav. I understand that for the anti-Israel crowd the passage of time is irrelevant, but still it is worthwhile bringing to your attention that it’s been four-five generations already.”

        Countless generations of Palestinians were born in those same territories yet you do not appear to accord them any rights whatsoever. Please explain.

        Professor Sand is trained in the craft of History. You may debate the facts and method of his book (which has nothing to do with Cinema) but his other fields of study are irrelevant.
        For your information, Sand’s major thesis is backed by none other than Israel Bartal, Avraham Harman Professor of Jewish History, former Dean of the Faculty of Humanities at Hebrew University and chair of the Historical Society of Israel:

        “No “nationalist” Jewish historian has ever tried to conceal the well-known fact that conversions to Judaism had a major impact on Jewish history in the ancient period and in the early Middle Ages. Although the myth of an exile from the Jewish homeland (Palestine) does exist in popular Israeli culture, it is negligible in serious Jewish historical discussions. Important groups in the Jewish national movement expressed reservations regarding this myth or denied it completely.”

      • RoHa
        January 6, 2018, 7:30 pm

        “conversions to Judaism had a major impact on Jewish history in the ancient period and early Middle Ages.”

        Since at that time (as at every other time) Jews were universally hated and persecuted (even by people who didn’t know what Jews were) it seems odd that some people would stop hating and voluntarily become Jews.

        (OT, Brewer, but I think you should adopt “Sheepfold at the End of the Universe” as a title of honour. I would if I were a Kiwi.)

      • Brewer
        January 6, 2018, 10:46 pm

        Roha.
        “I think you should adopt “Sheepfold at the End of the Universe” as a title of honour.”

        I am proud to be part of a remarkable tradition. I was raised on a sheep farm in the Southern Waikato, spent many a season in the shearing sheds both in NZ and Australia in student days. My father was an accomplished trainer of both horses and dogs. He had a border collie bitch (what we call an eye dog) that would drive a wild ram backwards between his parted legs, obeying just his whistle. He turned down an offer of 2,000 pounds (probably equivalent to $50-60,000 in today’s money) for her.
        This video shows how these dogs work:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW6-yvIlr2o
        My brother was taught to shear by this fellow (wrongly called Geoffrey in this clip, his name was Godfrey):

      • Annie Robbins
        January 7, 2018, 12:24 am

        f’ing A+ brewer! that’s incredible! i’m thoroughly impressed!

      • Maghlawatan
        January 7, 2018, 1:39 am

        Israel reminds me of one man and his dog with Netanyahu as the dog and maybe Adelson as the one with the whistle.

        https://youtu.be/PhK-g636LP4

      • RoHa
        January 7, 2018, 1:50 am

        Thanks, Brewer. I haven’t seen a big gun shearer for years.

    • Talkback
      January 7, 2018, 5:06 am

      RoHa: “Since at that time (as at every other time) Jews were universally hated and persecuted (even by people who didn’t know what Jews were) it seems odd that some people would stop hating and voluntarily become Jews.”

      Your assumption that Jews were UNIVERSALLY hated and persecuted is false. Judaism has a history of proselytisim.

      • RoHa
        January 7, 2018, 8:52 am

        Not my assumption. That is what I have been told by the very finest Jewish lachrymographers.

        By pointing out an inconsistency, my comment was a hint that they are perhaps overstating the case a little.

      • Brewer
        January 7, 2018, 2:42 pm

        “lachrymographers”
        Love it. I’m going to file that away in my lexicon!

      • RoHa
        January 7, 2018, 6:04 pm

        I learned the word from Mooser.

      • Mooser
        January 7, 2018, 7:01 pm

        ” I’m going to file that away in my lexicon!”

        “RoHa’s” coinage always rings true.

      • Mooser
        January 7, 2018, 7:29 pm

        “Judaism has a history of proselytisim.”

        I’ve read that there may have been actual Temple proselytism in the early days. But since that time Jewish proselytism has been mostly private ventures.

      • Mooser
        January 7, 2018, 8:22 pm

        “I learned the word from Mooser.”

        Oh, that’s it, blame the big-nosed ungulate! I wouldn’t know a five-syllable word if it came by to asses my syntax. I don’t even know what ‘proselytize’ means.

      • Brewer
        January 7, 2018, 11:01 pm

        Might be able to help you there. Isn’t a proselyte one of those ladies of the night who first talks you into a transaction then doesn’t charge?
        “came by to asses my syntax”
        Never had my syntax assed. Sounds like it might make your eyes water a bit.

      • Mooser
        January 8, 2018, 12:35 pm

        .” Sounds like it might make your eyes water a bit.”

        There was a bit of sobbing when I wrote the check to pay my syntax. And a penalty for language-laundering; trying to deposit my counterfeit coinage in “RoHa’s” account, hoping to withdraw it again as legal lingua franca.

    • CigarGod
      January 8, 2018, 11:10 am

      Thanks for that, WDR.
      If that is the case, I’d rather exercise my Right of Return to Bukara.
      Bukara doesn’t exist like it used to, but I’m glad I have an ancient right that is superior to all the others who arrived there after my relatives did.
      Unfortunately, I might have a hard time sorting out which of my relatives were refugee’s or just traders and business people who settled there.

      It is so much easier for Palestinians who have a well documented record of the 700 villages destroyed and the people who fled or were murdered.

  13. yonah fredman
    January 6, 2018, 11:09 am

    I accept the desire of the Palestinians kicked out in 47-48 and later to return. But this acceptance does not translate into support.

    Those of us who have spent time in israel and who have close friends and relatives in israel adjust ourselves to the political realities on the ground. Not familiar with the Palestinian story, as much as I should be at least, I still have some adjusting to do to hear the story of the other side.

    To equate the netanyahu regime with the olmert or sharon or barak regime reflects the moment of crisis and distance from reconciliation that exists at this moment. there is much to be learned regarding the incomplete visions of reconciliation of barak and olmert and sharon, a man of action, left us with this current state vis a vis gaza, an occupation without one soldier on the ground, intermittent warfare since sharon’s stroke has removed him from the scene. i think the deep state’s desire to keep a much greater presence than the one envisioned in the geneva accord of beilin abed rabbo explains the handover of power from olmert-livni to netanyahu in the fall and winter of 08-09 and so there is something to be said for not blaming netanyahu, but something deeper.

    back to the right of return. it’s a conversation stopper in israel. period. and given the context given it by most of its supporters, it is understandable why an imagined condition that has not existed for 70 years can be imposed without any attempt to even couch the return as a reconciliation, but in fact, it is imagined that the zionists will disappear with their suitcases and their passports and this is how it is described and imagined. and if there is a war of ideas and your idea is merely get your passports and leave, well, that’s not a very deep idea.

    but again i accept the desire to turn back the hands of time, but time is one directional and so a description of the process and the mindsets, would create a vision to reach for, instead of the “go get your suitcases.”

    • Mooser
      January 6, 2018, 12:16 pm

      “but again i accept the desire to turn back the hands of time, but time is one directional”

      Except, of course, when it comes to Jewish “claims” to Palestine.

      And of course, with the passage of time, the number of people supporting Zionism and the number of Jews, and the number supporting Zionism, dwindle.
      But 5.5 million Zionist Jews, riven by sectarianism, will turn back time. Ho-kay!

    • John O
      January 6, 2018, 1:18 pm

      “Those of us who have spent time in israel and who have close friends and relatives in israel adjust ourselves to the political realities on the ground.”

      My cousin Mary spent a couple of years nursing in South Africa in the 1970s. She adjusted herself to the realities on the ground to such an extent that my mother was appalled by the racist attitude she showed to black British people when she stayed for a while with our family after her return.

    • Talkback
      January 6, 2018, 2:49 pm

      Yonah: “I accept the desire of the Palestinians kicked out in 47-48 and later to return. But this acceptance does not translate into support.

      Those of us who have spent time in israel and who have close friends and relatives in israel adjust ourselves to the political realities on the ground. ”

      No replace “Palestinians” with “Jews”, “47-48” with “1939-1945” and “Israel” with “Germany”.

      Oh, the good old brown-shirt-test. Works every time.

    • Brewer
      January 6, 2018, 3:52 pm

      Yonah.
      After several readings your post still looks like gobbledegook to me. Is it the effort to discount a right of return for a populace expelled within living memory in favor of those allegedly expelled two thousand years ago that has so depleted your ability to debate coherently?

      • Annie Robbins
        January 6, 2018, 6:20 pm

        brewer, i liked this segment:

        intermittent warfare since sharon’s stroke has removed him from the scene

        and his death a few years ago really removed him from the scene!

      • Mooser
        January 6, 2018, 6:50 pm

        “that has so depleted your ability to debate coherently?”

        Look, there’s no need to use euphemism’s. “yonah” is overdosing on pilpuls.

        His friends should arrange an interruption for him.

      • RoHa
        January 6, 2018, 7:32 pm

        Yes, after a brief burst of lucidity, Yonah is back to his old form.

      • inbound39
        January 8, 2018, 10:09 pm

        The facts are Israel recieved full membership at the UN by agreeing to implement Resolution 194………se here…….http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch2.pdf

    • Nathan
      January 6, 2018, 5:59 pm

      It’s interesting (and very strange) to note that the article criticizes those “Israeli organizations and individuals who show support for the Palestinians”, but “do not want to recognize a two-state solution based on UN resolutions, including the Right of Return”. After all, the author himself doesn’t say that he supports “a two-state solution based on UN resolutions, including the Right of Return”.

      • Talkback
        January 7, 2018, 5:37 am

        His criticism of those who NEITHER support a two state solution based on UN resolutions NOR a right to return but claim to support Palestinians is neither interesting nor very strange.

      • RoHa
        January 8, 2018, 1:03 am

        You seem to find difficulties where there are none. The author does not have to say that he supports 2SS and RoR in order to criticize those who don’t.
        Not saying “I support X” is not the same as saying “I don’t support X”.

    • yonah fredman
      January 6, 2018, 7:54 pm

      Humor me: you’re on a flight to lydda airport (which will not be called ben gurion airport, i presume) in this new palestine. Describe the army that controls the airport, describe the cause and effect that resulted in the changing of the guard. Describe the dislocations that pessimists were predicting and why the transition went smoothly.

      I cannot see such a new lydda airport, maybe your imagination can inspire me to imagine it.

      • Mooser
        January 6, 2018, 8:59 pm

        “Humor me: you’re on a flight to lydda airport”

        Humor you? “yonah” you have used this same dumb schtik about the airport 12 freakin times already!

        “yonah” I am sure forces will be found to protect the Lydda airport from neo-Zionist terrorists, after Israel is gone.

      • Donald Johnson
        January 6, 2018, 9:28 pm

        I could imagine a nonviolent Palestinian movement for a secular democratic state with equal rights for all joining up with whatever small number of Israeli Jews who feel the same. The very most liberal of the liberal Zionists join it. Someone like David Shulman might do so. It becomes a movement that even the NYT starts having to cover as a real thing.

        Where it goes from there I don’t know.

      • Brewer
        January 6, 2018, 10:12 pm

        Yonah.
        If you lay off the ziocaine for a spell and do a course in relatively recent History you will find similar transitions have been made in the former Soviet Union, China, South Africa and more. Going back a little further there are more relevant transitions from colonial entities to people’s democracies all over the World.
        Perhaps most relevant (and instructive) are the arguments made against the abolition of slavery which your post so resembles. They too predicted dire consequences and had difficulty imagining a World without it. Interestingly, like Zionists, they used biblical references to bolster the case for its continuance. The parallels are quite striking.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 7, 2018, 1:27 am

        Brewer

        Such transitions only happen when people realise they have no choice but to adopt reason. Groups follow thought trends that can persist way beyond bedtime. Yonah raises a lot of objections but he is basically defending Jewish economic privilege. The purpose of the occupation is to artificially increase the economic take of non productive Jews such as the Orthodox and ultra Orthodox. Half of the people share the cake.
        Israelis don’t want this to change and there is no incentive for them to act Jewishly and think about the motherfuckin’ consequences.

        https://youtu.be/Xbw_BxDwdjk

        Only BDS can shift the thinking. There is an alternative which is a catastrophic war that Israel loses. BDS is the nicer way.

      • Mooser
        January 7, 2018, 6:48 pm

        “Perhaps most relevant (and instructive) are the arguments made against the abolition of slavery which your post so resembles.” “Brewer”

        That’s something I noticed years ago; A lot of American Zionists are crackers trying to pass themselves off as matzohs

    • yonah fredman
      January 7, 2018, 5:37 am

      A Palestinian living in Hebron under the Zionist occupation speaks of the future in a way that inspires a further loss of hope. Given the general ambience of hopelessness, it should barely register, i suppose, but it does. there is no reason for Mister Dwaik to wish to reconcile with the Zionists, his rhetoric of hostility is merely of a piece with the state of war, the state of occupation, so it merely reflects reality. When Herzl gathered in Basel in 1897 it was a dark day for the Palestinians, I hear you.

      I do not make an argument, moral or logical against Mister Dwaik’s claim for the right of return. I merely predict: more war.

      those who point to the path of one state, it seems to be obvious that at the start of the process towards one state, that Palestinians need to demand citizenship in Israel. but Mister Dwaik seems to be making a two state argument. but the official story is that the two state solution is dead. is it alive or dead? i would have to call it in an induced coma with a bad prognosis. I would have to call the durability of the right of return question a nail in the coffin. so then onto the one state solution. and this: anyone who ignores process in regards to the one state question is being evasive. (the first step: demand citizenship for the palestinians in jerusalem.)

      The hope is that somehow Palestinians join the IDF and turn the IDF into a binational army and that’s who controls Lydda. That’s a century away. of course there would probably be a war before that, but there’s no predicting.

      • Mooser
        January 7, 2018, 2:02 pm

        “The hope is that somehow Palestinians join the IDF and turn the IDF into a binational army and that’s who controls Lydda.”

        Could somebody get a read on “yonah’s” vital signs?
        We may need to give him a shot of Ziolaxone.
        Or maybe it’s benzion-diazepams (sold on the street as “Gellers”) he’s on.

        “That’s a century away.”

        Thanks, Nostradumbass.

      • amigo
        January 7, 2018, 3:09 pm

        “Thanks, Nostradumbass.”Mooser

        A close relative of Alexander Dumbass.

    • CigarGod
      January 8, 2018, 11:28 am

      Yonah, booby.
      Reading you reminds me of my college roommate.
      He talked volumes in his sleep, but he didn’t believe it, until we recorded it.
      Unfortunately, he wasn’t able to tell us what he was talking about.

  14. cleo
    January 6, 2018, 12:01 pm

    Take a look at Zochrot (zochrot.org), an Israeli NGO, which has done remarkable work in reconstructing the pre-1948 history of buildings and towns seized or destroyed by Israel and educating Israelis about the Nabka. Zochrot’s mission statement and programs call for the right of return; if you haven’t heard of them it’s because this aspect of their work makes it very difficult for them to raise funds to carry on and publicize their activities.

    • Donald Johnson
      January 6, 2018, 12:56 pm

      I support the right of return. What you are describing, Yonah, with the suitcase thing, is more of an Algerian solution. Even the NYT now has a story up about how the younger generation of Palestinians is more supportive of a one man, one vote type of solution, secular democracy, equal rights for everyone.

      Upthread RoHa said he used to be a halfhearted supporter of a 2ss as the “ realistic” one. That was me also. But it doesn’t seem particularly realistic anymore if it ever was.. And even then, I thought the only type of workable 2ss would not be a divorce the way some Zionists describe it, but something with very open borders, people crossing back and forth, really more of a binational thing. If you had the divorce and cold peace type of solution, it wouldn’t be stable, or that is my guess. That seemed to be what many Israelis wanted— toss the Palestinians as little as possible and then forget they exist or if they aren’t satisfied, blame them for not accepting the “ generous offer”, keep stealing land and apply force as needed to keep them under control. But the Israelis have killed it off anyway. So why bother with a “ realism” that accepted the Nakba?

      • eljay
        January 6, 2018, 8:10 pm

        || Donald Johnson @ January 6, 2018, 12:56 pm ||

        Good post, as usual.

        || … That seemed to be what many Israelis wanted— toss the Palestinians as little as possible and then forget they exist or if they aren’t satisfied, blame them for not accepting the “ generous offer”, keep stealing land and apply force as needed to keep them under control. … ||

        That’s seems to be what Zionists still want.

      • Donald Johnson
        January 6, 2018, 9:29 pm

        Thanks eljay.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 7, 2018, 1:31 am

        I don’t think 22% of the land is acceptable any longer .
        If the bots don’t want a binational state they should cede another 28% to the Palestinians.

    • Mooser
      January 6, 2018, 1:26 pm

      .“Zochrot’s mission statement and programs call for the right of return;”

      Thanks, “cleo”. Good to know.

      If I am not mistaken, the article wasn’t an alter call to express personal support for the right of Palestinian return. The article said many organizations who claim to support the rights of Palestinians, don’t. So far we’ve got one named in the article, “Breaking the Silence” and one suggested by “echin”, “Peace Now”.
      Who are the others, and how will I know?

      • Mooser
        January 6, 2018, 1:46 pm

        ” wasn’t an alter call”

        It’s to early for that kind joke. Should be “altar call”

        And what about those who doth protest too much?

        We got a problem here.

  15. Ossinev
    January 6, 2018, 1:46 pm

    @Donald Johnson
    ” Even the NYT now has a story up about how the younger generation of Palestinians is more supportive of a one man, one vote type of solution, secular democracy, equal rights for everyone”
    Yes for sure. I commented on the NYT article in a separate thread. The younger Palestinians are educated and ambitious despite all the structured brutality of the IOF and via the internet can see the opportunities for careers further education and not least freedom to travel which they are being denied as a result of the pointless pursuit of the Zionist 2 state charade and they can see that the PA has simply been complicit through a combination of naivete and self interest.Thus the only way forward for them is to pursue the single state status with full citizenship and equal rights.
    Meanwhile as hinted in the NYT article the Israeli Zionist lunatic right wing in charge of the main colony , spaced out on Ziocaine , are steaming ahead with their Eretz Israel annexation plans and simply cannot see the edge of the cliff ahead.. The more sane “centrist” politicians in the country observing this must really be panicking but they can`t really speak out because now in Zioland right across the board the only vote winner is the loony right Bibliospeak.

  16. SerenaGaza
    January 6, 2018, 2:06 pm

    OMG, sure, of course: we are all struggling for that! The right of return is basical. Palestininians have been waiting since the Nakba. They got the Key! Free Palestine. Nakba will never be passed over. NEVER.

  17. DaBakr
    January 7, 2018, 6:36 pm

    Right of return is doomed unless there is some equal action that compensates the approximately equal amount of Jews kicked, forced or coerced out of Arab/muslim lands between the 1920s and 1950s. It doesn’t matter how may particular arguments one has to’prove’ that one explosion was not the same as the other. They will be considered equal in any treaty worked out. Irritating to manyvi sure.

    • Annie Robbins
      January 7, 2018, 7:30 pm

      unless there is some equal action that compensates

      palestinians are not responsible for something that happened in other countries unrelated to them. and had the state of israel not been founded and pressure from zionist parties towards others countries in the region to hand over their jews so israel would have warm bodies to fill the homes of palestinians who were displaced in order to conquer palestine it’s unlikely there’d would have been such an influx of jews from arab countries — something the israeli government lobbied for, ie; to “trade” iraqi jews for palestinians etc. so i think you’re barking up the wrong tree to tie these two phenomenas. it’s illogical and a diversion and completely absurd it would be included in any treaty between israel and palestine — as if palestinians were responsible.

      just more absurd hasbara.

      • Brewer
        January 7, 2018, 11:50 pm

        Dabakr is obviously not up with the play. That argument was scotched years ago – by Zionists.

        I strongly recommend close reading of The Jews of Iraq, Zionist Ideology, and the Property of the Palestinian Refugees of 1948: An Anomaly of National Accounting
        Author: Yehouda Shenhav
        http://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/yshenhav/files/2013/07/The-Jews-of-Iraq-Zionist-Ideology-and-the-Property-of-the-Palestinian-Refugees-of-1948.pdf

        Avi Shlaim is also good:

        “I was five years old in 1950 when my family reluctantly moved from Baghdad to Ramat Gan. We were Arab Jews, we spoke Arabic, our roots went back to the Babylonian exile two and a half millennia ago and my parents did not have the slightest sympathy with Zionism. We were not persecuted but opted to leave because we felt insecure. So, unlike the Palestinians who were driven out of their homes, we were not refugees in the proper sense of the word. But we were truly victims of the Arab-Israeli conflict.”

        http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/shlaim-im-not-a-refugee-my-family-left-iraq-because-we-felt-insecure-after-zionists-wiped-palestine-off-the-map/

        “An intensive campaign to secure official political and legal recognition of Jews from Arab lands as refugees has been going on for the past three years. This campaign has tried to create an analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi Jews, whose origins are in Middle Eastern countries – depicting both groups as victims of the 1948 War of Independence. The campaign’s proponents hope their efforts will prevent conferral of what is called a “right of return” on Palestinians, and reduce the size of the compensation Israel is liable to be asked to pay in exchange for Palestinian property appropriated by the state guardian of “lost” assets.

        The idea of drawing this analogy constitutes a mistaken reading of history, imprudent politics, and moral injustice……..
        …..Shlomo Hillel, a government minister and an active Zionist in Iraq, adamantly opposed the analogy: “I don’t regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.”

        In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: “I have this to say: I am not a refugee.” He added: “I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee.”

        The opposition was so vociferous that Ora Schweitzer, chair of WOJAC’s political department, asked the organization’s secretariat to end its campaign. She reported that members of Strasburg’s Jewish community were so offended that they threatened to boycott organization meetings should the topic of “Sephardi Jews as refugees” ever come up again. Such remonstration precisely predicted the failure of the current organization, Justice for Jews from Arab Countries to inspire enthusiasm for its efforts.”

        read more: https://www.haaretz.com/hitching-a-ride-on-the-magic-carpet-1.97357

    • JosephA
      January 7, 2018, 7:51 pm

      Talk about a classic non-sequitur.

      This is one of the more ridiculous comments in the entire thread. Had you any understanding of history (take “Ben-Gurion’s Scandals: How the Haganah and the Mossad Eliminated Jews” by Naeim Giladi), you would know how preposterous it sounds that the native Palestinians in Palestine should have to pay for Jews leaving Iraq. The Zionists MURDERED the Jews in Iraq, bombed them, in order to scare them into migrating to Israel. This is well documented. Get a grip on reality, seriously, please.

      • Eva Smagacz
        January 8, 2018, 12:06 pm

        Any refugee who freely gives up a right to ( safely) return to his homeland ceases to be a refugee.

        How many Jews currently waste away yearning to return to their native countries? How many registered refugees with UN? 71/80

      • Mooser
        January 8, 2018, 2:42 pm

        “How many Jews currently waste away yearning to return to their native countries?”

        Well, I often mope around the house, humming “Carry Me Back to Old Pastrami”. Does that count?

      • MHughes976
        January 8, 2018, 5:16 pm

        I agree that you can’t be a refugee if you have accepted citizenship elsewhere. You can still have property claims and deserve compensation, though.

    • Talkback
      January 8, 2018, 12:10 pm

      DaBakr: “Right of return is doomed unless there is some equal action that compensates the approximately equal amount of Jews kicked, forced or coerced out of Arab/muslim lands between the 1920s and 1950s.”

      DaBakr perverting the right to return as usual. You will never find him arguing that Jews, too, should have a right to return to “Arab/muslim” lands. He and his racist Apartheid Junta needs them to be kicked, forced and coerced out forever. As he and his racist Apartheid Junta needs the Palestinians to be kicked, forced and coerced out forever. Couldn’t be more racist, inhumane and despicable than this.

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