Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as capital of ‘Jewish people’ is assault on my religion — Queens rabbi

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on 164 Comments

Here is an excellent talk on Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of “the Jewish people,” published ten days ago by the scholar Yaakov Shapiro, an anti-Zionist rabbi for an orthodox Queens synagogue and an expert on Jewish history and law (who has been endorsed by Norton Mezvinsky).

Here are some of Shapiro’s points about Jewish religion and Jewish nationalism:

“President Trump has the right to make whatever foreign policy he wants. And if he feels that Miami Beach is best to recognize as the capital of Israel, that’s his business, he can do it. But once he starts talking about the Jewish people, now he’s encroaching on religion and that is my domain. There is absolutely no political relationship between the Jewish people and Jerusalem, it’s merely a holy city…

“The Jewish people don’t have a capital. We have never had a capital. Countries have capitals…. The Jewish people are not a country or a region, the Jewish people are a religious community. We pray towards Jerusalem, but we relate to Jerusalem only as a holy city not as a political capital city of the Jewish people.

“And all of those overtures that we make to Jerusalem, and the yearning we have for Jerusalem is only as a holy city, not as a capital city.  And because it’s a holy city, it doesn’t matter who has sovereignty over it. Jerusalem is just as holy and just as much Jerusalem whether it’s under the auspices of the Turks or the Romans or the British or whoever.”

Shapiro turns to Zionism, as contradicting the traditional Jewish religion.

“It’s important to know that the Zionists are the ones that started this business of the capital of the Jewish people, and it’s an idea that directly conflicts with the teachings of Judaism.

“The Jewish people aren’t a people because of a land… or a language… or a culture… When we accepted the religion, given to us by God, that’s when we became the Jewish people. We had no land, we had no territories, no capital city.”

Shapiro says some commentators say that the reason God gave Jews the law in the desert before they went into the holy land was to show, Jewishness has nothing to do with land. Jewishness comes from accepting the religion.

Then he speaks of the irreligious element of Zionist leaders.

“These are not religious Jews that are running the country, they are atheists. And yet the Israeli prime ministers from Ben-Gurion to Netanyahu use the bible as an excuse for ownership of the land… Ben-Gurion… didn’t believe God spoke to the prophets. He doesn’t believe it at all. Neither does Netanyahu at all.”

Netanyahu works on the Sabbath and is not kosher, thereby defying traditional Jewish laws.

“There is nothing holy in the bible that Netanyahu cares about, the only thing he cares about is his land.”

More on the difference between the religion and the land of Israel:

“Israel is not the Jewish people.  You hear these Israelis, Zionists, saying Jerusalem has the connection to the Jewish people for 2000 years, 3000 years, 4000 years. That’s all true, but it doesn’t translate into well, therefore Jerusalem has to be part of Israel.”

Zionist claims are an assault on the Jewish religion, because Benjamin Netanyahu has no right to claim that he is the leader of the Jewish people and that “his state is mine.” No, Shapiro was born in America, his father was born in Poland, his mother’s family is British.

“We have nothing to do with Israel. We are Jews, we’re observant Jews, we’re religious Jews… Israel is not my nation state in the slightest. This is a unilateral claim of the Israelis, of the Zionists, and it’s an assault on my religion.

“So too the claim that Jerusalem is the capital of the Jewish people, because it transforms the Jewish people from a religious identity to a national, a political identity. It’s an assault on my religion when he said that because Jerusalem is so connected to the Jewish people, therefore must be part of Israel. Jerusalem’s holiness has nothing to do with who owns it. It certainly has no reason to be part of the state of Israel.”

Correction: Originally we incorrectly gave Rabbi Shapiro’s name as David not Yaakov. Our sincere apologies ~ Ed. 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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164 Responses

  1. amigo
    January 9, 2018, 12:36 pm

    Indeed , much the same as Catholics look to the Vatican city as the centre of their faith.What would happen if the Pope claimed he is the political leader of all Catholics and they should send their sons and daughters to defend the Vatican.

    Where is my Vatican Passport , I do not feel safe in Ireland.I am off to my eternal and Historic Homeland .

    • Citizen
      January 9, 2018, 2:46 pm

      The Holy See, along with the State of Palestine, had been granted status as a full member state with voting rights in a procedural vote of the U.N. conference on nuclear weapons in late June, 2017.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 9, 2018, 3:51 pm

        citizen, neither the holy see nor the vatican (2 separate entities, the Pope being the head of both) ever sought membership status in the UN . only the vatican city is a state and the Holy See has established permanent observer missions at the UN. Archbishop Celestino Migliore: “The Holy See has the requirements defined by the UN statute to be a member state and, if in the future it wished to be so, this resolution would not impede it from requesting it”

        Vatican City and the Holy See are entirely distinct entities with a different nature, establishment, and functions. The Holy See is the central governing body of the entire Roman Catholic Church located within the Vatican City, an independent state located on the Vatican hill…. The Holy See (Sancta Sedes) is an independent sovereign entity and the top spiritual governing body.

        more here: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-vatican-city-and-the-holy-see.html

  2. just
    January 9, 2018, 5:03 pm

    Thanks for this, Phil.

    (Isn’t the Rabbi’s name Yaakov?)

  3. LHunter
    January 9, 2018, 5:32 pm

    A salute to rabbi David Shapiro – being Jewish means being a member of the Jewish religion and Zionism has nothing to do with Jewish religious beliefs.

    • Naftush
      January 14, 2018, 1:30 am

      Zionism has everything to do with Jewish religious beliefs because these beliefs are national at their root. This is where Zionism gets its strength and success.

      • Mooser
        January 14, 2018, 1:52 pm

        “Zionism has everything to do with Jewish religious beliefs because these beliefs are national at their root. This is where Zionism gets its strength and success.” “Naftush”

        Shorter “Naftush”: ‘Zionism depends on anti-semitic tropes. Hell it glories in them!’

        Well, I guess all those countries had good reason to expel or persecute the Jews. Why would any country tolerate a people who very religion demands disloyalty to any state but their own?

      • Talkback
        January 14, 2018, 6:50 pm

        Naftush: ““Zionism has everything to do with Jewish religious beliefs because these beliefs are national at their root.”

        ROFL. Then why did all the rabbies reject Herzl’s dream before Zionism corrupted them?

      • Yaakov Shapiro
        January 16, 2018, 11:06 pm

        Jewish beliefs are national at their root? That’s news to me. Maimonides outlines the core Jewish beliefs and not a single one of them is national. Instead, they are all – every single one of them – theocentric and supernatural. Jonathan Cook was right on the mark when he said that Zionism is “nothing else than the uncritical acceptance of German-inspired nationalism.” That’s where it’s “strength and success” comes from. And Zionism’s instrumentalizing of religion for the nationalist cause is no different than “Wielka Polska Katolicka,” Hindutva, or Korean Donghak.

  4. RoHa
    January 9, 2018, 6:18 pm

    So which should be the capital of the Christian people?
    Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, or Jerusalem, where he was crucified and resurrected?

    • Keith
      January 10, 2018, 1:20 am

      ROHA- “Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, or Jerusalem, where he was crucified and resurrected?”

      Please, tell me you are joking? Jesus of Nazareth was almost assuredly born in Nazareth, the Bethlehem/manger mythology ideologically motivated. Resurrection? surely you jest. Dead is dead and mythology mythology, whether Jewish or Christian. Was Jesus soul so deficient that it needed the entire body to go into heavenly orbit? Normally, I avoid theological arguments, however, this whole Bethlehem/ 3 wise men fantasy is so intellectually debasing that it is difficult to remain silent. And if anyone gives me shit over this, I’ll start quoting Reza Aslan on the historicity of the Bethlehem fairy tale.

      • RoHa
        January 10, 2018, 8:37 am

        Keith, I’m talking about religion, not reality. In reality we can’t even be sure that Jesus existed.

        (And off topic, but I have to ask. Aren’t you just thrilled by the idea of Oprah as President?)

      • Keith
        January 10, 2018, 10:43 am

        ROHA- “(And off topic, but I have to ask. Aren’t you just thrilled by the idea of Oprah as President?)”

        Sure, we can do worse and probably will. She has two important qualifications right from the start: she is not Hillary and she is not an Ivy League lawyer. Besides, Wall Street and the Deep State more-or-less run things regardless of who is in the White House, so why not elect someone who can put on a good show? Oprah’s one unforgivable flaw is that she is a fat-cat imperial feminist, hence, we would be forced to suffer through gilded hypocrisy! But at this stage fat-cat hypocrisy is so omnipresent that we should all be inured to it. Shorter version: who cares?

    • Tuyzentfloot
      January 10, 2018, 10:15 am

      I see no reason to doubt Jesus existed. Also Nazareth was tiny in the days, so the indication was quite specific. Sepphoris nearby was much larger and that was the capital of the region.

      • RoHa
        January 10, 2018, 6:02 pm

        I’ve seen arguments both ways. I don’t hold an opinion on the question. There might have been a real person behind the myth. There might not. I do have a firm opinion that the Gospels are a mix of fiction and forgery.

        But my main point is that, if Jewish religious beliefs give Jews special rights to Jerusalem, should not Christian religious beliefs give Christians special rights to Jerusalem and Bethlehem?

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 4:28 pm

        “should not Christian religious beliefs give Christians special rights to Jerusalem and Bethlehem?”

        Seems to me a universal religion like Christianity, which can unite all mankind should have special rights to the entire earth.

  5. gamal
    January 10, 2018, 11:14 am

    “We have nothing to do with Israel. We are Jews, we’re observant Jews, we’re religious Jews… Israel is not my nation state in the slightest. This is a unilateral claim of the Israelis, of the Zionists, and it’s an assault on my religion”

    I have a close friend who is a Tibetan Lama, may I paraphrase:

    The only thing that saved Tibetan Buddhism was the Chinese invasion, not because we now travel and many people want to learn about Vajrayana,

    but had the “Vajrayana” state survived after ’59 and been seen by the world Tibetan Buddhism would have been hunted down and outlawed because the Vajrayana state was terrible, cruel and the religion had been turned into a savage political ideology by the Aristocrats which used an idiotic version of the law of Karma to legitimize slavery, terrible abuse and a penal system so brutal and unjust that whole communities were in permanent revolt. The Lamas presiding over the famous monasteries were the worst tyrants.

    now we don’t rule anywhere and everyone ignores our record and treats us as elevated beings, the collapse of the state was a great relief to many of us, even though I and others suffered retaliation.

    (he spent 23 years in chinese labour camps and lived of undigested food that they salvaged from the guards latrines…mainly rice grains)

    And with Judaism we can observe this process in reverse…the Rabbi is quite right to be concerned.

    all you need to do to turn your “religion” in to politics is read your text like an idiot, it works for all of us, in exactly the same way, so on all of our behalf

    astigfirullah….etc

    • echinococcus
      January 10, 2018, 11:52 am

      Very appropriate, Gamal.

      One can only hope the state Rabbies won’t have to salvage undigested food from the latrines for X years, too.

  6. Mooser
    January 10, 2018, 12:09 pm

    How does Rabbi Shapiro square his views with all the rest of the Orthodox?

    • ajweberman
      January 10, 2018, 1:32 pm

      no such rabbi

      • Annie Robbins
        January 10, 2018, 2:03 pm

        welcome, and could you clarify what you mean ajweberman?

      • Mooser
        January 10, 2018, 2:40 pm

        “no such rabbi”

        Nonsense. As far as I know, Rabbi Shapiro is a Chef Rabbi! He knows what’s cookin’.

      • Talkback
        January 10, 2018, 2:50 pm

        Annie, there is no Rabbi “David” Shapiro. This is Rabbi Yaacov/Yaakov Shapiro from True Torah Jews.

        Here’s another video (Shapiro enters after two minutes):
        Has Zionism Hijacked Judaism. – Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro

      • Mooser
        January 10, 2018, 2:52 pm

        ” and could you clarify what you mean ajweberman?

      • eljay
        January 10, 2018, 3:03 pm

        || Annie Robbins: welcome, and could you clarify what you mean ajweberman? ||

        I think he’s correctly stating that there is no Rabbi David Shapiro of Queens. I did some googling and that does seem to be the case.

        But the “endorsed by Norton Mezvinsky” video names a Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro of Queens and he does exist.

      • Mooser
        January 11, 2018, 7:36 pm

        ” a Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro of Queens and he does exist.”

        I hope he doesn’t end up having to chain and lock his garbage pails.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2018, 10:48 am

        thanks for the clarifications!

        we’re very grateful for everyone in the comment section for bringing this to our attention and apologize to Rabbi Shapiro and all our readers it took us so long to correct. beginning with just, later ajweberman, talkback, eljay — we really should have gotten on this sooner. we’ve noted a correction at base of the article. thanks again.

    • Yaakov Shapiro
      January 16, 2018, 11:12 pm

      You’d be surprised how many Orthodox agree with me. That the Jewish people are a religion and that Israel is not the “nation-state of the Jewish people” as they define it, is the mainstream Orthodox view. However, many Orthodox will accept Israel’s political positions, due to their political, not religious, outlook.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 17, 2018, 12:30 am

        Thank you for answering mooser’s question Rabbi Shapiro. and welcome to mondoweiss.

      • Mooser
        January 17, 2018, 2:12 am

        “Thank you for answering mooser’s question Rabbi Shapiro. and welcome to mondoweiss”

        Yes, thanks, Rabbi Shapiro.

      • echinococcus
        January 17, 2018, 7:10 am

        That’s exactly the kind of surprise that everybody urgently needs, Rabbi. Even an educated guesstimate would be precious. Even if, as you say, some of these religious people who don’t see themselves as part of some nation cult do support Zionism out of other, political, grounds, they would at least be rational actors instead of murderous crazies.
        One can always discuss things on the basis of various interests –if no nationalist insanity is making it impossible, as it does with the absurdity of so-called “secular Jews”.

      • Yaakov Shapiro
        January 17, 2018, 7:34 pm

        That’s exactly the kind of surprise that everybody urgently needs … Even if, as you say, some of these religious people who don’t see themselves as part of some nation cult do support Zionism out of other, political, grounds, they would at least be rational actors … One can always discuss things on the basis of various interests –if no nationalist insanity is making it impossible, as it does with the absurdity of so-called “secular Jews”.

        Let’s just say even the Agudah-type parties in Israel who have joined the government officially hold that Jewish nationalism is a form of idolatry, as Judaism as it confers Judaic value on to a country, which is equivalent to conferring religious value to a graven image. This is well documented in the teachings of their rabbis, and it is the primary theological reason for their vehement opposition to the national religious. Their justification for joining the Israeli government (and it needs a justification) was for them to be able to protect the interests of the Orthodox community via political power. To “fight from the inside,” as they called it. Theologically, though, they are as opposed to the concept of Israel being the “nation-state of the Jewish people” as they are opposed to totem pole worship.

        Their support for Israel is not as a Jewish state but as an endangered state. Their concern is not for Zionism (which they despise) but for the safety of the country’s citizens. So for example, while the national religious are ideologically opposed to a land-for-peace deal, the mainstream Orthodox are not, if they would be convinced it would result in peace. Some are and some aren’t. Even Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef said he would support a land-for-peace deal if it would result in peace.

        Zionists don’t want you to know this. They need to portray Zionism as part and parcel of Judaism and so they present the Orthodox parties joining the government as some approbation of its existence and its ideology. It is not.

      • yonah fredman
        January 17, 2018, 8:29 pm

        Rabbi Shapiro- The ultra Orthodox are not ideologically Zionist, but they are right wingers. Yes, the reasons are individual survival rather than survival of the state, but they are overwhelmingly against the peace process and overwhelmingly suspicious of the intentions of the Palestinians. Nonideological, but yet the same political outcome at this moment in time. If the Palestinians wouldn’t knife Jews in Shaar Shechem going to daven, maybe the haredi would think different, but the fact is most charedi want to go to the kotel, want to go via shaar shechem and object to stabbings.

      • Yaakov Shapiro
        January 19, 2018, 3:23 pm

        I dont agree, Yonah. First, I dont see why you say that about Orthodox Jews and the peace process. Except for the national religious (settler types) who believe that Israel’s wars are part of the Messianic process, and that it is prohibited by Judaic law to give up land in Israel (it’s really not, of course) and Lubavitchers who accept unquestioningly their Rebbe’s verdict that the peace process won’t work, Orthodox leaders would like to see a peace process, even if it means relinquishing territory. Rav Shach said this countless times, and recently, MK Gafni (UTJ) expressed his support for an agreement with the Palestinian Authority at the Israel Peace Conference (https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/230917).

        Nobody wants stabbings. Right or left. The question is how to stop them. There is no one Orthodox view on the matter. The difference between even the hawkish Orthodox and the Zionists is that the Orthodox would gladly give up whatever it takes – including the entire Israel – if it would bring peace. The disagreement is merely what will realistically save lives. Zionists, on the other hand, religious and secular both, are willing to pay a price in blood for sovereignty, a position considered by most Orthodox Jews to be insane.
        (http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Liberman-Israel-willing-to-pay-the-price-for-Trumps-Jerusalem-decision-518456)

      • Mooser
        January 19, 2018, 3:53 pm

        “Yakov Shapiro”, thanks so much for participating in the comment threads.

      • Mooser
        January 19, 2018, 10:34 pm

        Pretty soon, I might be able to distinguish between the Orthodox Zionists living in Israel and Orthodox Non-Zionists living in Israel, and several other delineations, without a scorecard.

  7. ajweberman
    January 10, 2018, 1:32 pm

    No such Rabbi. search for yourselves

    • Mooser
      January 10, 2018, 2:45 pm

      “No such Rabbi. search for yourselves”

      Is there a list of accredited, real Orthodox Rabbis that Rabbi Shapiro is not on?

    • amigo
      January 10, 2018, 2:55 pm

      “No such Rabbi. search for yourselves”ajweberman

      Can,t argue wih the message so make the messenger disappear, eh aj.

      • Mooser
        January 10, 2018, 3:55 pm

        “Can,t argue wih the message so make the messenger disappear, eh aj.”

        To do that, “amigo” just Google him. Poof!

      • amigo
        January 10, 2018, 4:53 pm

        “Alan Weberman is a stone cold meshugganeh. He is by no means a reliable news source. Yet, by the same token, the legalese that these days must precede any printed record of the former Yippie, drug dealer,”

        http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/music/194509/a-j-weberman

        I wonder if this drug dealing hippie was selling ziocaine.

      • MHughes976
        January 10, 2018, 5:09 pm

        I googled David S! The mistake as to first name is understandable since the real David S is a well-known figure on the NY cultural scene, a poet and art historian.

      • Mooser
        January 10, 2018, 6:07 pm

        ” the real David S is a well-known figure on the NY cultural scene, a poet and art historian.”

        No, I don’t think David S is the guy they wrote “The Ballad of the Bin Man” about.

      • Talkback
        January 11, 2018, 9:08 am

        Again, his name is not David Shapiro, but Yaakov Shapiro. Phillip Weiss simply made a mistake.

    • Mooser
      January 10, 2018, 3:02 pm

      “No such Rabbi”

      Ho-kay, Sure you’re not just kinda wasting our precious time? But hey, don’t think twice, it’s alright.

  8. Boris
    January 10, 2018, 4:17 pm

    So, the good rabbi made a determination that being Jewish means following Judaism.

    It is too bad he could not tell it to the Nazis who had murdered 6 million Jews without asking if they kept the Sabbath or ate kosher.

    What a moron!!!

    • echinococcus
      January 10, 2018, 5:49 pm

      ..the good rabbi made a determination that being Jewish means following Judaism.
      It is too bad he could not tell it to the Nazis

      “Boris” didn’t really have to remind us that his thinking is exactly the same as that of Rosenberg and Hitler –we knew it already.

    • Mooser
      January 10, 2018, 6:03 pm

      “It is too bad he could not tell it to the Nazis who had murdered 6 million Jews without asking if they kept the Sabbath or ate kosher.”

      So “Boris”, what did the Nazis know about being Jewish that the good Rabbi can’t seem to see?

      And whatever standard the Nazi’s used to delineate Jewishness is the one we should use?

      • Boris
        January 11, 2018, 11:42 am

        Well, my mosing friend, you seems to be quite ignorant of this topic.

        Why don’t you do your own research?

        The ultimate answer – your anti-Israel activity will not save you and your mosing friends. At the end you will be treated like the rest of us…

      • Mooser
        January 11, 2018, 7:25 pm

        ” At the end you will be treated like the rest of us…”

        I ask you a simple question, and you go off the deep end. Look, it’s not that hard. When they come to get us “at the end”, how will they know who is Jewish?

        How can they tell who is Jewish, quickly enough and positively enough “at the end”, “Boris”?

        You should be able to answer that in one or two sentences. Please do.

        “Why don’t you do your own research?”

        I’m not the one who will be deciding who is or isn’t a Jew “at the end”. Remember? Somebody else will be deciding that about me. Not really my problem.

      • Boris
        January 11, 2018, 11:32 pm

        Moser,

        Whatever the method was/is used – is irrelevant. The point is that it exists.

        The simple fact is that it was used at least six million times – or you want to deny it?

      • Marnie
        January 12, 2018, 12:05 am

        “At the end you will be treated like the rest of us…”

        Aww, that’s so sweet. Finally, the promise of parity! No thank you. Over-indulged, spoiled, selfish, self-centered psychopaths, murderers and rapists? Umm, not likely ‘boris’; there’s only so much room in the pot you stir.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2018, 3:14 am

        simple fact is that it was used at least six million time

        in ww2? i thought 6m was the outside figure, not a “simple fact”.

      • eljay
        January 12, 2018, 8:25 am

        || Annie Robbins: simple fact is that it was used at least six million time

        in ww2? i thought 6m was the outside figure, not a “simple fact”. ||

        I believe “it” refers to whatever method was used by Nazis to identify who was a Jew, not the method used to kill Jews*.
        _______________________
        (*And non-Jews. But those deaths don’t help Zionism, so they don’t count.)

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 10:19 am

        Well, it works every time – sooner or later Israel-bashers reveal themselves as Holocaust deniers.

        One questions the number, another dismisses its uniqueness.

        Yes, six million is an acceptable number – some claim it could be bigger.

        Yes, overall 50 million died in that war, but Jews, unlike everybody else, were hunted and murdered simply for being born Jewish — not for their religious beliefs.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2018, 10:36 am

        not to burst your bubble there boris, but i’ll rely on this expertise:

        https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193

        The single most important thing to keep in mind when attempting to document numbers of victims of the Holocaust is that no one master list of those who perished exists anywhere in the world.

        What follow are the current best estimates of civilians and disarmed soldiers killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

        These estimates are calculated from wartime reports generated by those who implemented Nazi population policy, and postwar demographic studies on population loss during World War II.

        Number of Deaths

        Jews: up to 6 million

        [……]

        Copyright © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, DC

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 10:51 am

        Can’t argue with a woman.

        What difference for the purposes of this discussion does it make if it is exactly 6 million of 5.9 million?

        Are you, Annie, denying the fact that millions of Jews were murdered for simply being Jews?

        And that many of them were not religious and that they were identified by the Nazis and their collaborators from the rest of population not based on their religious affiliation?

      • Maghlawatan
        January 12, 2018, 11:14 am

        27 million Soviet citizens died (including max 3m Jews). We never hear that number.

      • eljay
        January 12, 2018, 11:15 am

        || Boris: Well, it works every time – sooner or later Israel-bashers reveal themselves as Holocaust deniers. … ||

        There’s nothing “Holocaust denial” about the fact that the deaths of non-Jews in WWII are of no interest to Zionists because they don’t benefit Zionism or the “Jewish State” project.

        || … another dismisses its uniqueness. … Jews, unlike everybody else, were hunted and murdered simply for being born Jewish … ||

        There’s nothing “unique” about being hunted and murdered simply for having a certain identity. In what may be the most effective genocide ever, 100% of Amalekites were wiped off the face of the earth simply for being Amalekites.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 12, 2018, 11:45 am

        Boris:

        “but Jews, unlike everybody else, were hunted and murdered simply for being born Jewish..”

        And just like everyone like you, you forget the Roma people, who’s genocide seems not to exist in your minds at all:

        “Genocide of European Roma (Gypsies), 1939–1945”

        “While exact figures or percentages cannot be ascertained, historians estimate that the Germans and their allies killed around 25 percent of all European Roma”

        https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2018, 1:03 pm

        unlike everybody else, were hunted and murdered simply for being born Jewish

        the tamimis are hunted and murdered simply for being born palestinian. well no, their land and spring are coveted. israel sooo wants that land without the people who come with it. i wonder what, if anything, jews had that was coveted by germans, by the nazis. and the roma, did anyone covet what they had? or was it they just wanted all the land just to themselves? for their pure aryan selves. is it too much to ask, this ethnic nationalism? that would depend on who you ask i suppose. it was too much to ask for the germans, but it’s not too much to ask for israel. is it? of course israel is not gathering them all in one place and straight up exterminating them. they just want them gone gone gone.

        sorry, just rambling. which reminds me of an article i tweeted yesterday. see the video, how they hunt the children. The Life of Palestinian Teens in East Jerusalem
        https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-1.833273

        Israeli policy aimed at making life so untenable in East Jerusalem that residents will decide to leave

        simply for being born palestinian.

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 12:53 pm

        Well, Kaisa, German action against Roma was mixed as some claim that they are Arians.

        However, the point is – they, Roma people or, as they are commonly called, gypsies – are easily distinguished from general European population. They don’t look like Finns, do they?

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 12:55 pm

        What happened to my reply to Annie Robbins?

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 12, 2018, 1:32 pm

        “Well, Kaisa..”

        Well, Boris..

        I did not get your point at all..

        My point was that (like in your comment the Jews) the Roma people too, were murdered simply because they were Roma people, not for their religious beliefs. So what is the difference??

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 12, 2018, 1:36 pm

        Boris:

        “They don’t look like Finns, do they?”

        You just made me remember JeffB, who also claimed the Sami people look different. I thought such times had already passed.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 2:02 pm

        “One questions the number, another dismisses its uniqueness.”

        Get your “Jews sui generis” lapel buttons, right here! Order several for your friends.

        BTW, “Boris”, you are still avoiding the question: “How can they tell who is Jewish, quickly enough and positively enough “at the end”, “Boris”?

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 2:16 pm

        “And that many of them were not religious and that they were identified by the Nazis and their collaborators from the rest of population not based on their religious affiliation?”

        Yessirree, “Boris”, if there is one organization which knows a lot about who is and isn’t Jewish, it’s the Nazis.

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 2:19 pm

        “… My point was that (like in your comment the Jews) the Roma people too, were murdered simply because they were Roma people, not for their religious beliefs. So what is the difference??”

        No difference. I am glad that you agree with me and not with a rabbi in the video that Jewish identity is not defined by your religion.

        “… the Sami people look different. I thought such times had already passed.”

        I am sorry, I did not know I are blind.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 12, 2018, 3:07 pm

        I am glad that you agree with me … that Jewish identity is not defined by your religion.

        do you mean that for you is not defined by your religion? for you, is it more (or exclusively) defined by your zionism? identity is very individualistic. when it comes to ourselves, i’m not sure it’s a one size fits all thing. when it comes to others, one (or one government) may make generalizations about whole groups of people. but i’m not sure how smart it is defining oneself as ones enemies might define you.

        btw boris, there’s no sign in our trash anything you’ve written from this thread has been deleted. and nothing at all from any thread in the last couple days. please try writing it again.

      • eljay
        January 12, 2018, 3:23 pm

        || Boris: … Jewish identity is not defined by your religion. … ||

        I agree: Jewish identity is not defined by a person’s religious beliefs. But it is very much defined by the fact that it’s a religion-based identity that can only be acquired by:
        – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 3:36 pm

        “– being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.”

        If that is true, why did I have to go to Hebrew School and religious instruction two nights a week and after services on Saturday? Why didn’t I just know all that stuff?

        Every person who is Jewish is a convert. Every single child has to be converted to Judaism.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 4:12 pm

        “The simple fact is that it was used at least six million times – or you want to deny it?”

        I guess the possibility that Nazis make mistakes, or might not know things about Jews is not a possibility?

        So, “Boris”, if it was used up to “six million times”, what was it?

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 4:43 pm

        “… what was it? … what was it? … what was it?”

        Send me your picture, I will tell you if you look Jewish….

      • Keith
        January 12, 2018, 4:55 pm

        BORIS- “Yes, overall 50 million died in that war, but Jews, unlike everybody else, were hunted and murdered simply for being born Jewish….”

        More than 60 million, Boris. And the more than 55 million Gentile deaths are trivialized because they were not born Jewish? Dead is dead. You wear your anti-Gentilism on your sleeve. Who defeated Hitler and Nazi Germany? Zionist Jews? Yet, who criticizes the Gentile survivors for not doing enough to save Jews? Hitler’s willing executioners? You need to check out Zionist cooperation with the Nazis before and during World War II along with Zionist efforts to thwart Jewish refugees from going anywhere but Israel. And what is Israel if not a throwback to the “Blood and Soil” nationalism of Nazi Germany?

        It is a nice trick you Zionists have of selling the concept of elite victimhood, where a powerful and privileged group turns reality on its head to claim it is a beleaguered minority, non-Jews born bad to the bone.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 12, 2018, 5:22 pm

        Boris:

        “I am sorry, I did not know I are blind..”

        And again I do not understand your comment.

        We have a minority of Roma people living in Finland, who arrieved here about 500 years ago. They are considered as Finnish people, no matter how they would look like.

        Those of the Finnish Roma who decide to ware their traditionl dresses, you will ofcourse be able to tell they are Roma, but those who do not ware the traditional clothes, I could never tell.

        It is interesting that you (and some other commentators here) seem to know how Finnish people look like, I do not. Even when travelling abroad, I can never tell if someone is Finnish untill I hear them speak – unless they wear some typically Finnish clothes (like Marimekko..).

        BTW, these guys are all Finnish: They are Finnish citizens, speak perfect Finnish and there is no argument there could claim they are not Finns. So tell me, could you see they are Finnish, if you saw them at the airport somewhere else??

        https://www.fum.fi/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/lihamyrsky1.jpg

      • eljay
        January 12, 2018, 5:41 pm

        || Mooser:
        “– being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.”

        If that is true, why did I have to go to Hebrew School and religious instruction two nights a week and after services on Saturday? Why didn’t I just know all that stuff?

        Every person who is Jewish is a convert. Every single child has to be converted to Judaism. ||

        The way I understand it, it doesn’t matter if you don’t “just know” all that stuff right away. The moment you’re born to a person who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism – Ta dah!!! – you’re one of the Jewish people (at least until Mikhael excommunicates you). Any religious stuff that happens later is just icing on the “Jewish people” cake.

        But if that’s not the case – if every person including (just to abbreviate) the descended need to undergo a religious conversion in order to be officially considered Jewish – I really don’t see how anyone (or any Zionist) can argue with a straight face that Jewish is fundamentally anything other than a religion-based identity.

      • Bumblebye
        January 12, 2018, 6:12 pm

        What an outright racist you are Boris. My d-in-law’s grandmother would be indistinguishable from a crowd of average white britons.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 12, 2018, 6:22 pm

        Boris:

        ” I am glad that you agree with me and not with a rabbi in the video that Jewish identity is not defined by your religion..”

        As a non-Jew, it is not up to me to define what makes a person Jewish. In Finland Judaism is concidered to be a religion and that is the way I was raised: We have Finnish Christians (Lutheran, Greek Catholic, Roman Catholic, Evangelicals etc.), Finnish Muslims (Shias, Sunnis), Finnish Jews, Finnish Buddhists, Finnish Hare Khrisnas, Finnish Baha’is, Finnish Atheists etc.: All Finnish people, with different religions.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 7:37 pm

        “Send me your picture, I will tell you if you look Jewish….” “Boris”

        Send me your picture, I will tell you if you look Jewish…. It’s so simple! And we’ve been kibbutzing back and forth about the Jewish identity, but “Boris” has made it simple for us.

        I bet not even the Nazis are as good as “Boris” when it comes to identifying Jews from a picture.

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 7:40 pm

        Keith,

        Please spare me your righteous indignation. Nowhere I am anti-Gentiles.

        There were large casualties during WWII largely because the German army specifically targeted civilian population. All resistance was severely punished. Most of the casualties had occurred in the East Europe and that’s where Germany was defeated by the Soviet Union, as 87 percent of German casualties had happened on the Eastern front.

        Jews were part of the Soviet Army. As the matter of fact, during that time the Jews had the highest percentage of Heroes of The Soviet Union medals (the highest military award in the USSR) among all nations in the USSR in relation to their population numbers. Israel honors all people who had fought the Nazis.

        Again, it was a very brutal war. However, among all other casualties, Jews had suffered the highest percentage because Nazis and their collaborators specifically targeted them. And this is the fact that is well recognized.

        So, your comment is taken right from your rear end.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 12, 2018, 7:41 pm

        ” as good as “Boris” when it comes to identifying Jews from a picture..”

        And Finns.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 10:04 pm

        ” I really don’t see how anyone (or any Zionist) can argue with a straight face that Jewish is fundamentally anything other than a religion-based identity.”

        Only a person who had no use for Jews would say that!
        Someone who didn’t want to use Jews, that is!
        But “Boris” wants Jews put towards a certain use,(Zionism) so it is very important to establish an identity for Jews which keeps them from getting away, which somehow traps them in Judaism, and obligates them to Zionism, and excludes them from anything else. Which essentializes Jewishness, and makes Jews different from everybody else. And if non-Jews won’t do that job, we’ve got to try and do it for ourselves.

        And all he can come up with is ‘Jews look Jewish’? I’m not sure that’s gonna be enough. Got anything else, “Boris”?

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 10:14 pm

        “…average white britons.”

        Wasn’t there a Northern Soul band by that name?

      • Keith
        January 13, 2018, 12:53 am

        BORIS- “Please spare me your righteous indignation. Nowhere I am anti-Gentiles.”

        Of course you are. Zionism is neo-tribalism and is inherently anti-Gentile. Your comments reek of hostility to non-Jews. You defend the actions of a state based upon Blood and Soil nationalism. Non-Jews are the hateful “other.” Do you disavow the notion of irrational and eternal anti-Semitism? Your Judeocentric world view inherently diminishes non-Jews. Are you concerned with the 6 million non-Jewish Congolese Africans killed by Zionist posterboy genocidaire Paul Kagame? https://blackagendareport.com/content/rwanda-crisis-could-expose-us-role-congo-genocide

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2018, 4:27 am

        Boris: “Please spare me your righteous indignation. Nowhere I am anti-Gentiles.”

        Well, there is on easy way to find out if you are or not.

        Just repeat this sentence:

        I, Boris, think that Nonjews have exactly the same rights in Palestine as Jews have or claim to have, including the right to return to their homeland and an independent state in former mandated Palestine.

        I’m expecting your racist silence.

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2018, 4:43 am

        Kaisa of Finland: “As a non-Jew, it is not up to me to define what makes a person Jewish.”

        And it is absolutely irrelevant. Only Zioinists are obsessed with this question, because they think that being Jewish leads to acquiring rights in former mandated Palestine that Nonjews shouldn’t have.

        Including the right to expell, denationalize, dispossess and disenfrenchize Nonjews. That’s the core believe of the supremacist ideology of Zionism and its settler colonialism.

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2018, 5:02 am

        Keith: “More than 60 million, Boris.”

        Well, it works every time – sooner or later Zionists reveal themselves as deniers of crimes against humanity.

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2018, 5:16 am

        Boris: “At the end you will be treated like the rest of us…”

        Do you believe that this treatment will be worse than how you treated and still treat Palestinians or less worse?

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2018, 5:25 am

        Mooser: “Every person who is Jewish is a convert. Every single child has to be converted to Judaism.”

        Exactly.

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2018, 8:45 am

        Keith: “Are you concerned with the 6 million non-Jewish Congolese Africans killed by Zionist posterboy genocidaire Paul Kagame? ”

        Well, “Jewish Neocons Adopt Rwandan Dictator, Kagame”
        https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/09/21/jewish-neocons-adopt-rwandan-dictator-kagame/

        And Kagame in his own words: “To be [in Israel] it’s like coming home,” the Rwandan president said.
        https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-bid-to-boost-africa-ties-israel-to-open-embassy-in-rwanda/

      • Mooser
        January 13, 2018, 1:12 pm

        “Exactly.”

        And maybe learn the difference between converting and recruiting.

      • Mooser
        January 13, 2018, 1:51 pm

        ” Non-Jews are the hateful “other.” Do you disavow the notion of irrational and eternal anti-Semitism? “

        “Keith” can you really blame us for wanting to stack the odds in our favor?

      • Mooser
        January 14, 2018, 4:14 pm

        “Jews were part of the Soviet Army. As the matter of fact, during that time the Jews had the highest percentage of Heroes of The Soviet Union medals (the highest military award in the USSR) among all nations in the USSR”

        Not to mention the prominent part we play played in Soviet political theory, and enforcement.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 17, 2018, 12:24 am

        What difference for the purposes of this discussion does it make if it is exactly 6 million of 5.9 million?

        for the purpose of any discussion, when people sling around terms like “the simple fact” the information should be both factual, and simple. and decidedly NOT opposed to what experts say (ie, if the experts say “up to 6 million”, that is opposed to the idea of “a minimum of 6 million”, or as you said “at least six million”. )

        Are you, Annie, denying the fact that millions of Jews were murdered for simply being Jews?

        you already tried slandering me once in this thread claiming i revealed myself as a holocaust denier boris! doesn’t it get a little old. and as i stated, prior to you asking me that question:

        i’ll rely on this expertise:

        https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193

        …….

        Number of Deaths

        Jews: up to 6 million

        [……]

        Copyright © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, DC.

        sheesh!!!!!

    • Talkback
      January 11, 2018, 3:47 pm

      Yes Boris, continue to let the Nazis view define you!

      • Boris
        January 11, 2018, 11:28 pm

        Are you suggesting to simply ignore it? Like BDS?

      • Talkback
        January 12, 2018, 4:14 am

        No Boris, I’m not going to ignore that you let yourself be defined by Nazis. But I’m going to ignore that you claim that BDS does the same, because it calls for equal rights of Jews and Nonjews. Something that you (or Nazis) can’t support.

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 8:47 am

        Well, walkie-talkie, Jews haters claimed that we poison wells and spread black plague, Nazis claimed that we as subhuman, you and your crowd claim that the only Jewish state practices aparteid.

        What’s a difference?

      • Bumblebye
        January 12, 2018, 11:27 am

        Well, boris, Naiem Giladi who *served* in the israeli forces describes how he was indeed tasked with poisoning Gaza wells with cholera. Nowadays idf and settlers either destroy them or take them over completely.

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 12:32 pm

        … he was indeed tasked with poisoning Gaza wells …

        Here is his book – http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.417.3464&rep=rep1&type=pdf

        He mentions that Egyptians had caught two Israelis who they had accused of poisoning wells.

        It is not the same as he was asked to do it. Can you point me specifically to this claim?

      • Talkback
        January 12, 2018, 2:13 pm

        Boris: “Well, walkie-talkie, Jews haters claimed that we poison wells and spread black plague, Nazis claimed that we as subhuman, you and your crowd claim that the only Jewish state practices aparteid.

        What’s a difference?”

        The difference is about 5,000,000 Palestinians that Jews keep expelled and denationalized only to maintain a junta dominated by Jews. And that amounts to the Crime of Apartheid.

        My turn. What’s the difference between hate and your accusation of hate?

      • Boris
        January 12, 2018, 4:41 pm

        See, backtalk, wars have consequences.

        Arabs lost the wars that they had started, they refused to sign any peace deals as recent as 2001. Now, unfortunately, they ALL have to pay.

        Israel would gladly give them self-rule, but the history shows that they are still hope to destroy the only Jewish state in their midst, so, until they grow up, the situation will continue.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 7:44 pm

        “Israel would gladly give them self-rule, but the history shows that they are still hope to destroy the only Jewish state in their midst, so, until they grow up, the situation will continue”

        Oh, you bet, “Boris”. All those people in Israel have nothing better to do than continue “the situation”. And world Jewry has nothing better to do but sit back and bask in the applause and respect Israel generates for us. And naturally, “the situation” enhances good-will and engenders respect for Jews all over the world. “The People of Eternal Conflict”.

      • Talkback
        January 13, 2018, 4:23 am

        Boris: “See, backtalk, …”

        Yes, Dislexic?

        Boris: “wars have consequences.”

        Settler colonialism, too.

        Boris: “Arabs lost the wars that they had started, …”

        What wars have they started? Zionist declared war on Palestine when they declared that they would turn it into a Jewish state. When the British stopped supporting this policy in 1939 Jewish terrorists started a war against the Briish and the Nonjewish Palestinians in Palestine. When both sides were offered a US brokored truce in the end of April 1948 the Jewish side had allready conquered areas outside the partion plan borders and expelled its population. And it rejected that truce and instead opted to create a state through war and acuire its territory through war. Nonjewish Palestinians didn’t need a war, Zionist Jews did to prevent Palestine to be released into independence in one single peace. 1956 Israel started a waer. 1967 Israel startet a war. 1973 Israel wasn’t attacked but Egypt and Syria tried to liberate their own territory occupied by Israel.

        “… they refused to sign any peace deals as recent as 2001.

        They righlty refused to subjugate to Israel’s violation of international and human rights law and what Zionist call “peace deal” which does not even include a souvereign and liberated State of Palestine.

        Boris: “Now, unfortunately, they ALL have to pay.”

        That’s what the Nazis said to regarding Jews.

        Boris: “Israel would gladly give them self-rule, …”

        Your wording is absolutely revealing. It proves exactly what position Israel has. A violator of the right to self determination. A true colonial Aparheid state which only wants to “give them self-rule” in other words a Bantustan.
        Btw. what was wrong with the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, “Boris”?

        Boris: “… but the history shows that they are still hope to destroy the only Jewish state in their midst, so, until they grow up, the situation will continue.”

        What history actually shows is that Israel not only destroyed 80% of Palestine, but that it is hoping to destroy the rest of it and that they will never stop even if Palestinians outgrow them even more and their infantile hasbarats.

        And it is telling that you don’t have anything to say about the fact that Jews have keep about 5,000,000 million Palestinians expelled and denationalized only to maintain a junta dominated by Jews and that this amounts to the Crime of Apartheid.

        And it is also telling that you can’t answer the question what the difference between hate and your accusation of hate is, because you know that there’s no difference at all.

        Boris: “Send me your picture, I will tell you if you look Jewish….”
        http://images.nymag.com/news/features/blackjews121224_3_560.jpg
        http://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f_auto,fl_lossy/t_Article2016_Control/215679

        Need to measure their skulls and noses, too, Dr. Boris?

      • Mooser
        January 13, 2018, 1:53 pm

        “Need to measure their skulls and noses, too, Dr. Boris?”

        No, that takes a specialist. “Boris” refers them to Dr. Alfred Rosenberg.

    • Talkback
      January 12, 2018, 2:27 pm

      Boris: “Can’t argue with a woman.”

      Not only a racist, but also a mysogonist …

      • Boris
        January 13, 2018, 12:20 am

        Thank you.

      • Mooser
        January 13, 2018, 1:16 pm

        “Thank you.”

        “Boris” if you have trouble arguing with a woman, talk to “Mikhael”. He can tell you how he wins his.

    • Yaakov Shapiro
      January 16, 2018, 11:19 pm

      Hitler is not my rabbi, Boris, and he does not get to define my Jewish identity. Judaism does.

      The problem for you is that Zionism has no better definition of Jewishness. It was, in fact, Theodor Herzl who first invented your definition of Jewishness. When asked by the British Royal Commission on Alien Immigration for his definition of the “Jewish nation,” he said it is a “recognizable, historical group of men held together by a common enemy” namely, “the anti-Semites.”

      • Mooser
        January 17, 2018, 1:48 am

        ” “Jewish nation,” he said it is a “recognizable, historical group of men held together by a common enemy” namely, “the anti-Semites.””

        Gee, I hope the anti-Semites understand what an important part they have to play in keeping the Jewish nation together. Be awful if they shirked their responsibilities.

      • RoHa
        January 17, 2018, 6:19 am

        I’ve been doing what I can, Mooser, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to start charging for my time.

        But Zionists can afford a few dollars for me, can’t they?

      • Mooser
        January 17, 2018, 2:06 pm

        “I’ve been doing what I can”

        You are going to have to do a better job, “RoHa”. Without the centripetal forces of anti-semitism, Judaism becomes centrifugal.

        Notice how many different sects of just the Orthodox denomination are mentioned in this thread.

      • RoHa
        January 17, 2018, 7:25 pm

        Mooser, I had a triple bypass just a few weeks ago. I don’t think I can handle even normal orthodox sects at the moment, let alone anything a bit “different”.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 17, 2018, 7:39 pm

        i forgot about that RoHa, i do hope you’re healing along swiftly. sending my best xxox

      • RoHa
        January 17, 2018, 8:52 pm

        Thanks, Annie. The docs say everything is going well, and I should be OK as long as Mooser doesn’t give me lascivious ideas.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 18, 2018, 4:35 pm

        that’s very good news. not sure about the mooser part tho ;)

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 17, 2018, 10:26 pm

        RoHa,

        Here is a Finnish children’s song from the 1980’s (aka my childhood), I wish it will compensate all the bad Zionist vibes there might be spreading here while visiting these pages and then keep you on the safe track of getting better:

        Etkö ymmärrä/Don’t you understand

        “Etkö ymmärrä
        mitä sulle lausuin,
        kerran vielä mä kuiskata sen voin:
        Että sullekin
        uudet leikkini näytän,
        siihen vielä mä lisäisin,
        että sinusta välitän”

        “Don’t you understand
        what I just told you,
        once more I can whisper it to you:
        I will teach you all my plays (games)
        and then I added, that I care about you”

      • Mooser
        January 18, 2018, 4:21 pm

        ” The docs say everything is going well, and I should be OK as long as Mooser doesn’t give me lascivious ideas..”

        Me? I’m giving you lascivious ideas?
        Why, I’ve heard your Rorschach test results were banned in Boston.

      • RoHa
        January 18, 2018, 7:07 pm

        Thank for the nice little song, Kaisa. Is that a kantele playing the accompaniment?

      • RoHa
        January 18, 2018, 7:11 pm

        Mooser, it was you who raised the topic of sects.

      • Mooser
        January 18, 2018, 10:01 pm

        “Mooser, it was you who raised the topic of sects.”

        True, only too true. I’m like that Dr. who keeps on making pornographic ink-blots and then asking you to describe them.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        January 18, 2018, 10:19 pm

        RoHa:

        “Is that a kantele playing the accompaniment?”

        You know, I had never even thought about it before, so I had to listen to it carefully, but I think no. Maybe keyboards and a quitar, but at some point (?) it sounded quite close to it. (I noticed that I have always only focused on listening to the lyrics, so I had not paid any attention to the accompaniment before. How funny..)

      • RoHa
        January 19, 2018, 12:52 am

        Dr Who doesn’t make inkblots. He fights Daleks.

      • RoHa
        January 19, 2018, 1:13 am

        Actually, Mooser, the word “lascivious” always makes me think of M’Andrew’s Hymn.

        “I’d seen the Tropics first that run—new fruit, new smells, new air—
        How could I tell—blind-fou wi’ sun—the Deil was lurkin’ there?
        By day like playhouse-scenes the shore slid past our sleepy eyes;
        By night those soft, lasceevious stars leered from those velvet skies,”

        Just the other day I saw the phrase “soft, lascivious, stars” in a Philip Marlow novel, so we now know that Chandler read Kipling.

      • Mooser
        January 19, 2018, 11:46 am

        The word “lascivious” was first used by “yonah fredman” to describe Steven Saliata tweet:

        by the date of the tweet was it not assumed by most here at mw and elsewhere that the missing teens were murdered and a statement, i wish they’d all go missing is in fact lascivious talk. licking his lips.” “yonah fredman”

        “yonah” further explains: “…regarding lascivious. i meant it in terms of the big bad wolf of the three pigs disney cartoon. blood thirsty.” Ho-kay!

        Which is sorta funny, because of a resemblance between the “Big Bad Wolf” and Jed Harris.

  9. yonah fredman
    January 10, 2018, 4:42 pm

    When David son of jesse, moved his capital from Hebron to Jerusalem, he made Jerusalem the capital city. This rabbi, whom Phil can’t even bother to identify properly, exaggerates the lack of nationalism involved in the history of the jews. I think neturei karta, which seems to be who this learned rabbi represents, has some points, but let us not confuse insight with political relevance, or the orthodox viewpoint of 1939 with the orthodox viewpoint in 2018.
    The vast majority of orthodox jews accept zionism. Enthusiastically. Neturei karta and their position, is a small minority. Their influence is minimal.

    • Mooser
      January 10, 2018, 6:06 pm

      “The vast majority of orthodox jews accept zionism.”

      In spite of the huge sacrifice Zionism requires from them? That is noble, truly disinterested and noble.
      And of course, as go the Orthodox (way less than 10% of Jews), so must the rest of us go.

    • Marnie
      January 12, 2018, 12:21 pm

      Yonah says “The vast majority of orthodox jews accept zionism. Enthusiastically.”

      If that’s true, then they best start praying for forgiveness, every day. Why wait for that once a year blue light special?

      • yonah fredman
        January 12, 2018, 3:07 pm

        Marnie- Ultra orthodox Jews fear Palestinian intentions and thus their opposition to the Oslo accords and the idea of plo or hamas becoming their new rulers. Can you assure them that their fears are ill founded? I doubt it. You can only tell them that whatever the rulers of Palestine will do to them is what they deserve. Small comfort. Actually zero comfort.

      • Maghlawatan
        January 12, 2018, 4:42 pm

        Yonah
        Sabras are paranoid. Settlers always are.
        Like deep south whites afraid of their women being raped. Justification for apartheid there too.

      • RoHa
        January 12, 2018, 6:17 pm

        Then they should try to deserve better.

      • Marnie
        January 14, 2018, 12:48 am

        Yonah “Ultra orthodox Jews fear Palestinian intentions and thus their opposition to the Oslo accords and the idea of plo or hamas becoming their new rulers.”

        If they’re so afraid Yonah, they shouldn’t have amassed an army that routinely unleashes hell on civilian populations as policy. That’s what living by the sword does; it makes you stupid; stupid and violent and seeing violence in everyone else.

    • Naftush
      January 14, 2018, 1:36 am

      Again this bewildering fixation on NK. Its kampf with Zionism concerns only timing and motive. NK fully expects a Higher Authority to sort those matters out in His good time. Then NK will be the most fervent Zionists of all. Until then, leave them alone.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 14, 2018, 3:22 pm

        i beg to differ naftush. not only is there no reference to Neturei karta in the main article, there is also no reference to them at the video description at the youtube site. i think it’s quite likely, in posting the video, phil was not even aware this rabbi was part of that sect of judaism. this is even more probably given he originally misnamed him which has been noted repeatedly in the comments until we corrected that.

        making a charge of “fixation”, using this as an example sans other examples or links, is unpersuasive. and i would not have even known he was a NK rabbi had yonah not brought it up.

      • echinococcus
        January 14, 2018, 3:36 pm

        The rage of Zionist criminals against Neturei Karta is only natural: the latter are the only sane Jews, in addition to being all Jewish, unlike the godless majority of Zionists.

      • Yaakov Shapiro
        January 16, 2018, 11:47 pm

        Sorry. I am not part of the Neturei Karta. The idea that every Orthodox Jew who does not accept Zionism is somehow Neturei Karta is fake news.

    • Yaakov Shapiro
      January 16, 2018, 11:27 pm

      The vast majority of orthodox Jews accept zionism. Enthusiastically. Neturei karta and their position, is a small minority. Their influence is minimal.

      This is entirely untrue. The idea that only Neturei Karta and Satmar reject Zionism is a common Zionist refrain – I should say “lie” – and designed to legitimize Zionism by pretending it is Judaism. If Zionism means that (a) the Jewish people are a nationality and (b) Israel is their nation-state, then forget it. Except for those who call themselves “Modern Orthodox” or “National Religious,” I’d like you to find me this “vast majority” of Orthodox Jews who “enthusiastically accept” Zionism. They do not exist.

      • Mooser
        January 17, 2018, 1:53 am

        ” and designed to legitimize Zionism by pretending it is Judaism.”

        I’ve always had trouble with that one: you legitimate Zionism to an irrationally and eternally anti-Semitic world, by claiming it is Jewish? That one never made any sense to me.
        And if Zionism is Judaism, that pretty much validates a lot of anti-Semitism, too; Jews always have an ulterior loyalty (Zionism).

      • Yaakov Shapiro
        January 17, 2018, 7:58 pm

        you legitimate Zionism to an irrationally and eternally anti-Semitic world, by claiming it is Jewish? That one never made any sense to me.

        It legitimates Zionism to the Zionists. They are able to convince themselves of the righteousness of Zionism by convincing themselves that all criticism of it is motivated by anti-Semitism.

        Also, people dont want to be accused of being anti-Semties (even if they are), therefore, if any criticism of Zionism is really anti-Semitism, it silences many critics.

      • Talkback
        January 18, 2018, 8:14 am

        Yakkov Shapiro: “It legitimates Zionism to the Zionists. They are able to convince themselves of the righteousness of Zionism by convincing themselves that all criticism of it is motivated by anti-Semitism.”

        Spot on! And all of your comments are precious!

      • Mooser
        January 18, 2018, 3:50 pm

        “Also, people dont want to be accused of being anti-Semties (even if they are), therefore, if any criticism of Zionism is really anti-Semitism, it silences many critics.”

        In a world of eternal anti-Semitism, doesn’t it seem that condemning anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism would encourage anti-Semites to attack Israel, rather than discouraging them?

        I don’t think the Zionists really believe in an anti-Semitic world at all.

        And thanks, Rabbi Shapiro, for commenting.

  10. Marnie
    January 11, 2018, 9:34 am

    “These are not religious Jews that are running the country, they are atheists. And yet the Israeli prime ministers from Ben-Gurion to Netanyahu use the bible as an excuse for ownership of the land… Ben-Gurion… didn’t believe God spoke to the prophets. He doesn’t believe it at all. Neither does Netanyahu at all.”

    Thanks for this Phil. It was so refreshingly honest and intelligent but I’m a bit prejudiced I guess because I agree with everything the rabbi wrote. What strikes me is the common sense and lack of mumbo jumbo zionists use – for them God is only a prop. “Shapiro says some commentators say that the reason God gave Jews the law in the desert before they went into the holy land was to show, Jewishness has nothing to do with land. Jewishness comes from accepting the religion.” That is just beautiful and true.

    Awesome piece Phil –

    • Talkback
      January 13, 2018, 8:19 am

      Meanwhile Israel’s Rabbinate reject non-Orthodox streams of Judaism, which comprise more than 70 percent of American Jews.

  11. Boris
    January 12, 2018, 1:26 pm

    Deleted …

    • Mooser
      January 12, 2018, 2:30 pm

      “Deleted…”

      Well, if they’re drinking in moderation, it’s good to see you picking up the slack, “Boris”.

      • Mooser
        January 12, 2018, 4:10 pm

        BTYW, “Boris”, you do remember what we told you? About pushing “Post Comment” (the dark blue rectangle with words on it below the comment box) after each comment?

  12. Boris
    January 12, 2018, 5:00 pm

    Full disclosure, Moo, I was asking about my response to Anne Robbins not showing up.

    I had posted one (see above) and after I had posted this one, I had noticed that it had finally appeared.

    • Annie Robbins
      January 12, 2018, 6:48 pm

      boris, my suggestion if you think your comment is missing/deleted, is to click on your name and check your archives first.

      • Boris
        January 13, 2018, 12:25 am

        Why don’t you just “approve” my comments without delay and in the order I am writing them?

      • amigo
        January 14, 2018, 12:43 pm

        “Why don’t you just “approve” my comments without delay and in the order I am writing them?” Boris

        Jawohl herr ubermenschen.

        Boris , why not cancel your monthly donation and post somewhere , where your patronage is given the deference it deserves.

  13. Boris
    January 13, 2018, 8:53 am

    This is my last comment here, which sums everything up:

    Losers, you can’t face reality!

    • eljay
      January 13, 2018, 9:41 am

      || Boris: This is my last comment here, which sums everything up:

      Losers, you can’t face reality! ||

      Not only does that comment not sum up everything, it isn’t even accurate. I, for one, can face the reality that no matter how much lipstick you losers put on your pig, Zionism is just another brand of supremacist, colonialist and (war) criminal evil.

    • amigo
      January 13, 2018, 10:42 am

      “This is my last comment here.”Boris

      Did you mean , today or perhaps this week.

      Wait for zionist boris to break another commitment as all zionists do.

      Enjoy your time off Boris.We certain;y will.

    • Talkback
      January 13, 2018, 11:27 am

      Boris: “This is my last comment here, which sums everything up:

      Losers, you can’t face reality!”

      Yep, that’s why you are the last man standing. Let’s see how long it will take for you to “return” or write under a different name.

    • Mooser
      January 13, 2018, 1:32 pm

      “This is my last comment here, which sums everything up: Losers, you can’t face reality! “ “Boris”

      ‘The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
      Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
      Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line’

    • Marnie
      January 14, 2018, 12:36 am

      Boris – Yay! Don’t let the proverbial door slam on your ass on your way out…..

    • amigo
      January 14, 2018, 1:16 pm

      “This is my last comment here” Boris.

      Uh Uh , another stray zionist on the loose.

      Not to worry about Boris, he is “chipped” ,(on his shoulder) so some leftie do gooder will drop him off at the the nearest lost zio shelter, who will at the earliest opportunity contact his handlers (hasbara central) to come and get him (Please).

      • Mooser
        January 14, 2018, 1:58 pm

        “Uh Uh , another stray zionist on the loose.”

        Don’t worry, he will find his way back here. He won’t get the same freedom-of-speech at any Zionist site.

  14. Naftush
    January 14, 2018, 1:29 am

    Anti-Zionists should find little comfort in Rabbi Shapiro’s views. Consider Dubnow:
    “Since religion completely dominated all spheres of Jewish life for two thousand years, the mass of orthodox Jews accepted the idea that Judaism is not a nationality in the accepted sense but a religious community living according to sacred traditions, laws and commandments that encompass the life of the individual and the community. The mass of the people who do not understand the interdependence of historic events failed to see that all the ancient national values of the Jewish nation the historical festivals, customs and usages, laws, social institutions, the whole system of self-administration retained in the Diaspora all had been incorporated gradually and artificially into the sphere of religion. The national body became wrapped in the garb of religion so that … its true form was unrecognizable.
    In essence the views of the orthodox may be formulated as follows: “Judaism is a religious nation, its members are held together by religious ordinances and practical commandments; whoever violates this religion removes himself from the national community.” This view is not opposed to the concept of a spiritual or cultural nation. It is mistaken only in the sense that it confuses the concepts of “spiritual” and “cultural” with “religious.” It is the result of a limited perspective characteristic of men who do not distinguish between fossilized tradition and living, creative development. Let the mass of the orthodox consider nationality and religion as one, for the time being; … let them be satisfied with this partial understanding as long as they cannot arrive at a full and complete understanding based on theoretical analysis and research. In the end they too will see the light.

    • Mooser
      January 14, 2018, 3:47 pm

      “Let the mass of the orthodox consider nationality and religion as one, for the time being; … let them be satisfied with this partial understanding as long as they cannot arrive at a full and complete understanding based on theoretical analysis and research. In the end they too will see the light.”

      Don’t worry, “Naftush”. “Boris” is looking at the photographs, and we will soon have this ‘nationality vs. religion’ thing all sorted out.

      After all, the Jewish religion is just (sorry) a religion. But Jewish nationality? Well, that pretty much seals your fate.

    • Yaakov Shapiro
      January 16, 2018, 11:45 pm

      Dubnow was wrong. This idea he got from Graetz, whose influence he came under in the 1880’s.

      Graetz had an agenda: to recreate the Jewish people in the image of the gentile nations — a trend that was quite in vogue at the time, with so many peoples recreating themselves by inventing national historical mythologies so as to better look at themselves as “nations.” What so many peoples did for themselves in terms of inventing fictitious histories, Graetz did for the Jews.

      Graetz’s history is hardly unimpeachable. And his (and Dubnow’s) assertion that the Jewish people are a nationality is without merit.

  15. Ossinev
    January 14, 2018, 2:44 pm

    @Amigo
    “Uh Uh , another stray zionist on the loose”

    May not be a big problem in Ireland in the very near future. Are you aware that the Zioland Embassy in Ireland is one of those listed to be closed due to ” budgetary pressure “. It may have been listed primarily because in Zio eyes the Irish are seen as being too sympathetic to the Palestinian cause as in they too resisted and fought against foreign colonial control and refused to stop producing more children.
    https://www.jta.org/2018/01/12/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/israeli-consulate-in-atlanta-5-embassies-to-close-next-year

    I know that you will be devastated by this news.

    • amigo
      January 14, 2018, 3:56 pm

      “It may have been listed primarily because in Zio eyes the Irish are seen as being too sympathetic to the Palestinian cause” 0ssinev

      We must be doing something right.

      Your link made reference to the embassy staff being paid 1200 a month and cribbing about it.I mean 1200mo for telling lies.It,s not like they have to do any research .After the first month they have memorised all the usual answers.

      In any event , it will be good to see it gone.Hopefully the new head hasbarist is being posted elsewhere and our passports are safe.

    • amigo
      January 14, 2018, 5:39 pm

      0ssinev, some more info on the zioembassy.

      “Simon Rowe

      August 7 2016 2:30 AM

      “Fears over security threats and public protests targeting the Israeli embassy in Dublin are believed to have scuppered talks to secure commercial tenants for troubled Carrisbrook House – the building leased by the IDA and Forfas that had an 85pc vacancy rate for seven years – costing taxpayers €1m a year in rent.

      The Israeli embassy has leased the fifth floor of eight-storey Carrisbrook House in Pembroke Road, since 1995. But the remaining seven storeys have lain empty since 2008.

      AIB Fund Managers quit the building in 2008 after it exercised a break option citing “international security concerns”, according to documents seen by the Sunday Independent. This is thought to refer to increasing political tensions between Israel and Hamas in the months preceding the 2008 Gaza War.

      Records show the Dublin 4 embassy has been the focus of numerous public protests over Israel’s Gaza blockade since 2007. The embassy was also the victim of a bomb alert in 2009, and a bomb scare in 2012 led to the evacuation of the entire building.

      The then Forfas chief and now IDA boss Martin Shanahan signalled concerns over the security situation at Carrisbrook House in correspondence to the Dail’s Public Accounts Committee as far back as late 2013.

      In addition to concerns over the age, condition and configuration of the building, he explained that “security issues in the area have proved a deterrent in securing some prospective tenants, and have counterbalanced the advantages of the prime location, car parking and accessibility of the site”.Independent.

      https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ida-left-counting-the-cost-of-leasehold-due-to-israeli-embassy-security-concerns-34944208.html

      Apparently , the rogue regime wore out it,s welcome .They rented the 5th floor and the other 7 floors stood empty since 2008.

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