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‘NY Times’ covers up Israel’s killing of nonviolent protesters along the Gaza border

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The NYTimes today continues its biased coverage of Israel/Palestine, with a shocking, one-sided report that tries to cover up how Israel has opened fire on the mass nonviolent Palestinian protest inside the Gaza border.

The dishonesty starts in the first sentence of the Times report, which contends that the protests “descended almost immediately into chaos and bloodshed,” with “at least five Palestinians killed in clashes with Israeli soldiers.”

Note the cunning effort to use vagueness to hide the fact that Israel fired live ammunition (“descended. . . into bloodshed”), and “clashes” — insinuations that both sides are somehow responsible for the five deaths.

The bias continues in the second paragraph of the Times report, which asserts — without quotation marks —  that “thousands of Palestinians were rioting in six locations along the border.” By contrast, both the Guardian and the BBC in their reports put the word “rioting” in quotes, and attributed it clearly to the Israeli military, underscoring that it is a claim from one side, not a proven fact. Here’s the BBC version: “The Israeli military reported ‘rioting’ at six places and said it was ‘firing towards main instigators.'”

The dishonesty continues. The Times describes Hamas as “the Islamic militant group that dominates Gaza and is known for its armed resistance.” OK, somewhat tendentious, but where’s the description of Israel as “a government that has massively attacked Gaza three times since 2008, killing thousands, mainly civilians and many children?”

Next, the Times does mention Israel’s blockade of Gaza, “which Israel calls a security imperative.” But you won’t read the other side, which is that many others, Palestinians and some Israelis, counter that Israel maintains the blockade not mainly to protect itself, but to suffocate and discredit Hamas, which won elections in Gaza in 2006.

Then even more bias. The Times: “Girding for violence, Israel had almost doubled its forces along the border, deploying snipers, special units and drones. . .” But where’s the other, far more accurate side of the story: “Israel, facing a propaganda debacle as thousands of Gazans launched a mass peaceful protest, did everything it could to provoke violence to discredit the protest and intimidate Gazans once more.”

Buried in the Times article is just one hint about what is really happening, a quote from B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization. B’Tselem “warned in a statement that any shoot-to-kill policy against unarmed demonstrators would be unlawful. . .”

What is troubling and disgraceful in the Times report is that so far, there is no first-hand reporting from Gaza. A newspaper genuinely interested in the truth would send reporters to the border in Gaza and ask some of the thousands of Palestinian demonstrators what is actually happening to them —  instead of just parroting the Israeli military.

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141 Responses

  1. Naftush
    March 30, 2018, 10:21 am

    The real bias is in the fixation on the bodycount in NYT and a fortiori in the piece above. It overlooks — blinds the reader to — the purpose of the exercise: to establish the “right of return” via mass theatre and plenty of martyrdom. From this perspective, the loss of five lives and not hundreds, among an estimated 17,000 who marched on a fortified and hostile border, amounts to an Israel victory and a sad sacrifice of Palestinian lives.

    • eljay
      March 30, 2018, 10:46 am

      || Naftush @ March 30, 2018, 10:21 am ||

      So just to be clear: If oppressed Jews were to gather peacefully in large numbers to assert their (human) rights, it would be perfectly acceptable for their oppressor to deliberately shoot and kill some Jews. And you would defend not just the murder of those Jews but the right of the oppressor to murder them.

      Wow. It blows my mind they way you Zionists insist on undermining rights and laws that are meant to protect all people including Jews.

      • Mikhael
        March 30, 2018, 12:43 pm

        eljay March 30, 2018, 10:46 am So just to be clear: If oppressed Jews were to gather peacefully in large numbers to assert their (human) rights, it would be perfectly acceptable for their oppressor to deliberately shoot and kill some Jews

        This “demonstration” is more about throngs of people attempting to storm a border fence of a country that is not theirs while chanting violent slogans, but the answer to your bizarro world scenario is that if thousands (or hundreds, or dozens, or even one) Jew(s) (or Albanian(s), or Mongolian(s), or Fijian(s)) gather(s) at the border fence of another country (e.g., Canada) and attempt(s) to storm it and threaten(s) the lives of the security personnel guarding the other country, then YES the security personnel or armed forces guarding the border of the country that the so-called “protester(s)” (are)(is) attempting to enter illegally have the absolute moral and legal fright to consider their own lives to be at immediate risk and take necessary steps to protect their own lives, including lethal force, and (2) take into consideration that those throngs (or even a lone individual) gathering at the border fence intend(s) to cause harm to the civilian citizens of the country that the border guards are protecting

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        March 30, 2018, 1:12 pm

        @Mikhael,

        “Borders” you say? Can you show me those declared, internationally recognised ‘borders’ on a map? And would you not surely agree that any and all ‘settlers’ who live on the other side of those borders are, by your logic, illegal encroachers who are legitimate targets?

        Anyway, this discussion can proceed with more clarity when you’ve shown us the map with said declared, internationally recognised borders. All of them.

        “the absolute moral and legal fright”

        Well, I think we can all respect a moral and legal fright. Very frightening not to.

      • Mooser
        March 30, 2018, 1:13 pm

        “people attempting to storm a border fence of a country”

        Did they? “Storm the border fence”, that is? And when did it get to be a “different country”? There’s been no “two-state solution”.

      • Mooser
        March 30, 2018, 1:44 pm

        “the absolute moral and legal fright”

        Israel’s got plenty of that.

        “This “demonstration” is more about…/…protecting”

        And “Mikhael” applies for another get.

      • Mikhael
        March 30, 2018, 3:06 pm

        Maximus Decimus Meridius March 30, 2018, 1:12 pm
        @Mikhael,

        “Borders” you say? Can you show me those declared, internationally recognised ‘borders’ on a map

        In the case of Gaza, in August 2005 Israel has withdrawn to the armistice lines that existed between Egypt and Israel between 1949-1967. The Hamas-led branch of the Palestinian Authority has governed the Gaza Strip since 2007 and asserts sovereignty there and Israel has relinquished all territorial claims on Gaza. Since the Hamas-governed quasi-state entity that is known as the Gaza Strip portion of the PA is de facto and de jure in a state of war with Israel, any of its citizens who approach the border with Israel and ignore orders to stop are assumed to have hostile intent. But even when two countries are officially at peace and have open borders, military and border guards have a right and a duty to protect themselves and the citizens of the country they are sworn to protect from people anybody attempting to cross a border illegally.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 30, 2018, 3:08 pm

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        March 30, 2018, 3:14 pm

        So, “MIkhael” I see you have failed to a) show me Israel’s declared, legally recognised borders on a map and b) answer my question as to whether those who choose to squat and carry arms on the wrong side of those borders are legitimate targets.

        Not a good start.

        “Since the Hamas-governed quasi-state entity that is known as the Gaza Strip portion of the PA”

        Snigger. That’s the clumsiest word salad since ‘weapons of mass destruction mobile chemical laboratories.’ It is not a ‘quasi-state entity’. It is a part of occupied Palestine, and recognised as such by the UN. You don’t get to create parallel realities so that you can get a warm fuzzy feeling about the killing of civilians.

        ” any of its citizens who approach the border with Israel and ignore orders to stop are assumed to have hostile intent. ”

        The half million ‘civilians’ and squatters on the occupied West Bank are all legitimate targets then.

      • Mikhael
        March 30, 2018, 3:23 pm

        Mooser March 30, 2018, 1:13 pm

        “people attempting to storm a border fence of a country”

        Did they? “Storm the border fence”, that is?

        No. The IDF is there to prevent that from happening. This is a good thing. The border police and soldiers of Israel don’t have a moral duty to wait until citizens of a hostile foreign entity which has announced its intent on numerous occasions to destroy Israel tear down the border fence protecting the citizens of Israel, a sovereign state, and the Hamas-governed PA portion of Gaza, a quasi-state entity existing within armistice lines agreed to between Egypt and Israel in 1949 and from which Israel completely withdrew in 2005 and makes no territorial claims. However, the border guards and soldiers who defend the citizens of Israel have a moral right to use lethal force (if necessary) to prevent hostile foreigners from storming the border and entering the sovereign territory of Israel and endangering its citizens so.
        And if Moser travels from Kitsap County to British Colombia and gives good reason (like ignoring warnings to not cross the border) then the Royal Canadian Mountain Police would be justified in using lethal force.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 30, 2018, 6:19 pm

        “this is a good thing”

      • MHughes976
        March 30, 2018, 3:29 pm

        If a boundary marker has to be defended by such horrible means it is surely likely to represent a boundary drawn unjustly and oppressively.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        March 30, 2018, 3:38 pm

        ” hostile foreigners”

        They are not ” hostile foreigners.” They are, under international law, a protected people. Israel has a duty of care towards them so long as it remains the occupying power.

        ” the sovereign territory of Israel ”

        So I’ll ask you again: Where is this ‘sovereign territory’? Where does it begin – and end?

        Go on. Show me. Name me any sovereign state and I could produce a map with declared, internationally recognised borders within minutes. But with Israel, you can’t do that. Neither can anyone else. So stop using ‘borders’ and ‘sovereignity’ as arguments, when you are incapable of defining either of them.

      • just
        March 30, 2018, 3:47 pm

        Here’s another beach photo, Annie
        “(((YousefMunayyer)))

        Mohamed Abu Amr, the artist that created this beautiful scene in Gaza’s sandy beach yesterday was reported among the protesters shot and killed by the Israelis today.

        It reads: “I am returning” ”

        photo here: https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/979800032038866944

        (sorry that I don’t know how to embed the photo)

      • Mikhael
        March 30, 2018, 3:56 pm

        Maximus Decimus Meridius March 30, 2018, 3:14 pm

        So, “MIkhael” I see you have failed to a) show me Israel’s declared, legally recognised borders on a map and b) answer my question as to whether those who choose to squat and carry arms on the wrong side of those borders are legitimate targets

        I didn’t fail because I undertook no obligation to demonstrate this to you to your satisfaction. But since you insist, I’ll repeat again. Israel has a de facto border with the Hamas-led portion of the Palestinian Authority, which governs the Gaza Strip. It’s a quasi-state entity that is de jure and de facto in a state of war with Israel. The citizens under its authority have been instigated to mass at the border with Israel , a sovereign state, and threaten to tear down the border fence between Israel and the territory governed by Hamas, which Israel has relinquished control over since 2005.

        Snigger. That’s the clumsiest word salad since ‘weapons of mass destruction mobile chemical laboratories.’

        I’m sorry for you that you have reading comprehension issues.

        It is not a ‘quasi-state entity. It is a part of occupied Palestine, and recognised as such by the UN. You don’t get to create parallel realities so that you can get a warm fuzzy feeling about the killing of civilians

        Hamas itself has declared that Gaza is not occupied. I wonder why the UN wasn’t paying attention. And are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter? Because, you know, it doesn’t.
        “Against whom could we demonstrate in the Gaza Strip? When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,” Zahhar said
        http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=449619

        ” any of its citizens who approach the border with Israel and ignore orders to stop are assumed to have hostile intent. ”

        The half million ‘civilians’ and squatters on the occupied West Bank are all legitimate targets then

        The terror gang known as Hamas,which governs a portion of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in a quasi-state entity in Gaza, views all Israelis, whether they are military personnel based in the disputed territories or within territories governed by the State of Israel from 1949-1967, or civilians living in the disputed territories of the West Bank or in territories governed by the State of Israel in its 1949-1967, as legitimate targets at all times and in all places. The Fatah-led portion of the PA, which also governs a portion of the Palestinian Authority in a quasi-state entity in an area that was named the “West Bank” by the Hashemite Monarchy after it took control of that territory in 1949 (which Israel took control of in 1967), entered into an internationally binding agreement with Israel that leaves the presence of Israeli civilians in the disputed area as an unresolved matter to be left for final status negotiations. They have sometimes declared that they intend to abrogate the agreement, but they still seem to be aware (for now) that would be a two-way street with bad consequences for them. Under the agreement, Israeli civilians are confined to Area C and if they enter Area A of the West Bank, which is entirely under the security jurisdiction of the Fatah-led portion of the PA, they are subject to its laws and their lives could be forfeit if they are deemed to threaten the lives of PA police.
        That is what happened to Ben Yosef Livnat when he allegedly ignored the order of a Palestinian Authority policeman to halt and proceeded against orders to visit a site deemed holy (Joseph’s Tomb in Shekhem/Nablus) by many religious Jews that lay inside Area A, which again, is under security and civil jurisdiction of Palestinian Authority police. There are conflicting accounts of whether Mr Livnat was cooperating with the order to stop given by PA police when he was was shot, so the shooting may or may not have been justified (it doesn’t seem as if he was threatening the PA policeman who shot him, although the throngs massing in Gaza are a physical threat to the IDF), but I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened.

        https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        March 30, 2018, 4:24 pm

        “I didn’t fail because I undertook no obligation to demonstrate this to you to your satisfaction. ”

        That’s because you can’t. Israel has never declared its borders. You cannot produce a map of those borders. Nobody can. That’s because they don’t exist – except when they’re convenient for you, and disappear when they don’t.

        No map exists of Israel’s declared, internationally recognised borders. You know that. Israel has sent half a million land theives and armed militias to squat outside their legally recognised borders, so to claim the sanctity of ‘borders’ is laughable.

        “Hamas itself has declared that Gaza is not occupied.”

        Really? Got a link. And are they now the unimpeachable source of international law? Can I quote you on that, ‘mikhael’?

        “And are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter?”

        No, “Mikhael”, I think you’re the one who decides these things. Who needs the UN when you’ve got ‘Mikhael’?

        The rest of your post is another confusing word salad but this bit:

        ” (it doesn’t seem as if he was threatening the PA policeman who shot him, although the throngs massing in Gaza are a physical threat to the IDF)”

        Throngs eh? And is it any wonder that sorry gang get their backsides handed to them any time they’re up against an even halfway decent rival eh? Physically threatened by people not even they claim are armed? It amuses me no end that this shower think they can take on Iran!

        “I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened.”

        In principle eh? And of course you’d not need the slightest shred of evidence that the person was a ‘threat’? You’d just take it on their word, as you do here?

      • Mooser
        March 30, 2018, 4:48 pm

        “And if Moser travels from Kitsap County to British Colombia…/…lethal force.”

        Idiot. The Washington/Canadian border has been a smuggling route for centuries now. Sometimes people are apprehended, and returned to jurisdiction. All without a lot of “lethal force”.

      • Shingo
        March 30, 2018, 6:00 pm

        This “demonstration” is more about throngs of people attempting to storm a border fence of a country that is not theirs while chanting violent slogans

        Most of those Gazans are refugees who were illegally expelled from their homes by Israel in 1948 and who still own title to that land. Israel accepted UNGA194, which required Israel to allow those refugees to return to their homes, as a condition of it’s membership to the UN.

        Not to mention the fact Israel has imposed a no go zone on the Gaza side of that “fence” that extends hundreds of meters into Gaza and renders it uninhabitable. This and the siege on Gaza is illegal and a war crime. Even if one where tho take your false claims at face value, the Israeli dearth squads, which are amassed on the Israeli side of that fence have no moral or legal right to fire on anyone in Gaza unless they cross into Israel.

      • Shingo
        March 30, 2018, 6:23 pm

        Israel has a de facto border with the Hamas-led portion of the Palestinian Authority, which governs the Gaza Strip. It’s a quasi-state entity that is de jure and de facto in a state of war with Israel.

        Israel also has a defacto border with the West Bank, but you conveniently ignore that. By your logic, all those settlers in the West Bank that are killed or stabbed are legitimate targets since they were invaders.

        The citizens under its authority have been instigated to mass at the border with Israel , a sovereign state, and threaten to tear down the border fence between Israel and the territory governed by Hamas, which Israel has relinquished control over since 2005.

        What part of the no man’s land, air space or waters of the coast have Israel relinquished control over?

        Hamas itself has declared that Gaza is not occupied. I wonder why the UN wasn’t paying attention.

        I wonder why you have suddenly decided that what Hamas has to say is legitimate? Do you also agree with the position of Hamas that Israel is illegitimate?

        And are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter? Because, you know, it doesn’t.

        I guess it didn’t have any moral or legal standing when they recognized Israel either right?

        ”any of its citizens who approach the border with Israel and ignore orders to stop are assumed to have hostile intent. ”

        But I thought you said Israel withdrew from Gaza and no longer occupied it. What. legal authority or does Israel have to issue any orders inside Gaza? And doesn’t it follow that Israeli citizen who cross into the West Bank and ignore the authority of the PA become legitimate targets?

        The terror gang known as Hamas,which governs a portion of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in a quasi-state entity in Gaza, views all Israelis, whether they are military personnel based in the disputed territories or within territories governed by the State of Israel from 1949-1967, or civilians living in the disputed territories of the West Bank or in territories governed by the State of Israel in its 1949-1967, as legitimate targets at all times and in all places.

        In which case, this is surely your position too seeing as you earlier cited the opinion of Hamas as authoritative? Of course, there are no disputed territories. No one regards them as disputed but some factions of the Israeli government.

        entered into an internationally binding agreement with Israel that leaves the presence of Israeli civilians in the disputed area as an unresolved matter to be left for final status negotiations.

        What makes that agreement binding? It’s not even recognised under international law and what’s more, it was set to expire after 5 years. The expired Oslo Accords are, and were, irrelevant. Articles 7 and 8 of the 4th Geneva Convention prohibit an Occupying Power from concluding any special agreement with the inhabitants that renounces in part or in entirety the rights secured to them under the convention. In the case of Palestine that includes the grave breach associated with the extensive Israeli misappropriation of natural resources, not justified by any military necessity. Onerous agreements, like the Oslo Accords or long term concessions granted under duress to western cartels during the colonial era, have long since been declared null and void.

      • eljay
        March 30, 2018, 6:40 pm

        || Mikhael … ||

        ZioHQ must be worried – they’ve brought in one of the big guns! (At least in terms of word count per post.)

        || … but the answer to your bizarro world scenario … ||

        … is that you agree with Naftush that if oppressed Jews were to gather peacefully in large numbers to assert their (human) rights, it would be perfectly acceptable for their oppressor to deliberately shoot and kill some Jews. And you would defend not just the murder of those Jews but the right of the oppressor to murder them.

        I wonder how many more Zionists will agree with these two that oppressors of Jews are entitled to kill oppressed Jews.

      • ritzl
        March 30, 2018, 7:35 pm

        Thanks eljay.

        Truly astounding. These people truly cannot be at all well.

      • eljay
        March 30, 2018, 9:17 pm

        || ritzl: Thanks eljay. … ||

        My thanks and props to you, too, ritzl.

        || … Truly astounding. These people truly cannot be at all well. ||

        I agree. Zionists are hateful and immoral hypocrites trying desperately to defend a hateful and immoral ideology.

      • Mooser
        March 30, 2018, 9:53 pm

        “eljay” are you failing to see the brilliance in Israewl’s actions?

        1) Palestinians gather
        2) Israel shoots them
        3) Zionists storm the web and tell everyone how laudable this is, how legal, how necessary.
        4) A tremendous wave of sympathy and support for Israel results.

        It’s a sure-fire strategy.

      • eljay
        March 30, 2018, 9:59 pm

        || Mooser: “eljay” are you failing to see the brilliance in Israewl’s actions? … ||

        I must be, probably because I have neither:
        – the extra IQ points that I’ve been told come with being Jewish; nor,
        – the Lorenz-vaunted intelligence of jackdaws.

        I bear the highly-average white man’s burden.

      • Mooser
        March 30, 2018, 10:13 pm

        ” the Royal Canadian Mountain Police would be justified in using lethal force.”

        Mounties, shoot at me? Not a chance!

      • catalan
        March 30, 2018, 10:21 pm

        “So you’re in favour of non-Jews suicide-bombing Jews. Wow. “ Eljay
        I don’t know much about any particular military tactic. But sending people to die or get injured just seems so futile unless there is something I am missing. I have two explanations. One is that Hamas has devolved into a tyranny and the subordinates are afraid to tell the top guy, hey, this may not be such a good idea. Perhaps you get shot if you question the leader. Or possibly life in Gaza has become so horrible that people are willing to literally die or get injured just out sheer desperation. The short term solution of course is for Hamas to admit failure and hand over the territory to the Palestinian authority. The chances of that are zero though. Long term it all seems hopeless.

      • Mooser
        March 31, 2018, 12:04 am

        “I bear the highly-average white man’s burden.”

        Our problem, “eljay” if I may be so bold, is that we don’t love the Jews the way we should.
        If we loved us, or rather, them, the way we should, the way we are obligated to love us (or them), no demand would be too large, and every transgression forgiven and forgotten.

      • Shingo
        March 31, 2018, 12:40 am

        The short term solution of course is for Hamas to admit failure and hand over the territory to the Palestinian authority.

        How is that a solution? The lives f those in the West Bank are no better

      • Emory Riddle
        March 31, 2018, 8:48 am

        Chanting “violent” slogans? What’s a violent slogan? Does chanting one constitute a crime punishable by immediate execution without trial?

        Storm a border fence? You do know that the Palestinians were killed hundreds of yards from the fence?

        A country that is not theirs? Well, it sure as Hell was before the Ashkenazi violently took it from them.

        Nobody further divorced from reality (or is it honesty) than apologists for Israel.

      • Misterioso
        March 31, 2018, 11:34 am

        For the record, past and present:

        On 16 June 2009, after meeting with former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, Ismail Haniya, prime minister of Hamas’s Gaza Strip government, announced that “If there is a real plan to resolve the Palestinian question on the basis of the creation of a Palestinian state within the borders of June 4, 1967 [i.e. 22% of historic Palestine as per 1949 armistice agreements] and with full sovereignty, we are in favour of it.”

        http://www.haaretz.com/isra
        “‘We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees,’ Haniyeh said, referring to the year of Middle East war in which Israel captured East Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories. ” (Haaretz, December 1, 2010)

        In its revised Charter, April, 2017, Hamas again agreed to a Palestinian state based on the 4 June 1967 borders. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, Israel promptly rejected the Hamas overture instead of using it to open a dialogue.

        https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-hamas-official-muslims-christians-jews-can-all-live-here-together-1.5957399

        “Senior Hamas Official: ‘I Think We Can All Live Here in This Land – Muslims, Christians and Jews.'”
        “We asked Dr. Ahmed Yousef what Hamas is planning for the Passover holiday in Israel”
        By Nir Gontarz. March 28, 2018, Haaretz.

        EXCERPTS:
        “Is Hamas moving from military action to civil action?
        Actually, Mr. Nir, it is not Hamas who made the decision, but the youth. The main idea was thought up by the youth. There are people who think there is no hope, no future, and that we have to do something – ya’ani, to remind the whole world that we as Palestinians are still suffering, we are still living in the diaspora or in refugee camps, and there’s a certain decision by the United Nations, [Resolution] UN 194, [which calls for repatriation OR financial compensation for Palestinian refugees] that we are trying to implement, ya’ani, and to send a message to the world community that our problem is not solved and we’re still suffering, and continue to see our land being abused by the occupation, or Israelis trying to squeeze us to the corner, punishing the Palestinians, and this is something that this generation of Palestinians is not going to accept. And so they’re doing their own civil march, they don’t intend to do anything belligerent, and I think this is the message they would like to carry to the whole world, about the situation and the suffering in Gaza.”

        “Okay, and the plans are to cross the border to the other side?
        No, no, no, no one is talking about crossing the border. No. It will take place inside the area. It’s something that can take place near the border, not too close to the border, but it can be in the buffer zone, or near the border. We will hold various activities, singing, folklore performances, Palestinian folklore.”

        “In one sentence, is there anything you would like to say to people in Israel?
        I can tell them, look, you’ve suffered a lot as Jews around the world, and there were issues of suffering and agony in Spain or Europe. You were treated badly in Europe during the war and also during the inquisition in Spain. Don’t repeat what you have suffered. You are causing the Palestinians suffering by pushing them to the wall. This land, Palestine, is the holy land for all the people of Abrahamic faiths, who lived together through history for centuries. I think we can all live here in this land – Muslims, Christians and Jews – in this blessed land Allah chose for all the good people of Palestine, Muslims, Jews and Christians. This is my message to the Jewish community in Israel or to the Jewish people in Israel.”

      • Mikhael
        April 16, 2018, 4:48 pm

        Maximus Decimus Meridius March 30, 2018, 4:24 pm
        “I didn’t fail because I undertook no obligation to demonstrate this to you to your satisfaction. ”

        That’s because you can’t. Israel has never declared its borders. You cannot produce a map of those borders. Nobody can.

        Borders are determined and defined between and among states when those states respect and recognize their neighbors’ borders. Many sovereign states modify and alter their borders with neighbors through mutual negotiations and agreement; Israel has peace treaties with two neighboring states, Egypt and Jordan. The borders between Israel and Egypt hand Israel and Jordan have been defined. And Israel has applied Israeli law to the Golan Heights and has de facto and de jure incorporated it into Israel even though there is not yet any treaty with Syria (and there won’t be for the foreseeable future). So Israel has also unilaterally defined its borders with Syria, in the absence of negotiation and agreement with that state (what there is of it), although it is possible that in the unlikely event that peace in Syria prevails and a government forms there that looks towards peace with Israel, perhaps Israel’s borders with Syria can be negotiated and modified, just as many sovereign states modify and alter their borders through negotiation, e.g., Nigeria and Cameroon (https://www.un.org/press/en/2006/afr1397.doc.htmhttps://www.un.org/press/en/2006/afr1397.doc.htm). When it comes to Israel’s borders with the Palestinian Authority, there is no Palestinian state yet that Israel has been able to reach an agreement with over the final disposition of borders, just two quasi-state entities. When and if an agreement is reached, then Israel can have mutually agreed-upon borders with a neighboring state capable of controlling its borders. Until that happens, however, Israel will unilaterally take action to define its security border with the hostile quasi-state entity in Gaza governed by the Hamas terror gang. Israel does not accept the contention of the Hamas terror gang that rules the quasi-state entity in Gaza that all of the Land of Israel between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is a Muslim Waqf and that people from Gaza have a right to come into Israeli-held territory to harm the citizens of Israel.

        “Hamas itself has declared that Gaza is not occupied.”

        Really? Got a link. And are they now the unimpeachable source of international law? Can I quote you on that, ‘mikhael’?

        Sure, since you missed it the first time, I’ll show you the link a second time and if you ask me again, I’ll show it to you a third and a fourth time.
        Here is the quote again, here is the link again:

        “Against whom could we demonstrate in the Gaza Strip? When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,” Zahhar said
        http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=449619<

        I 'm always glad to help!

        “And are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter?”

        No, “Mikhael”, I think you’re the one who decides these things. Who needs the UN when you’ve got ‘Mikhael’?

        No, not just me. The UN has no more moral credibility because it’s an organization the “Human Rights” Council of which routinely has the worst violators of human rights (e.g., Qadhafi’s Libya, Syria) as members, whose “peacekeepers” are known the world over for running child sex rings and spreading cholera. The UN, with its , bloated bureaucracy and organizations, is mostly only effective and reliable at passing anti-Israel resolutions. So I’ll ask again, are you seriously pretending that the UN somehow has moral or legal standing in this matter or any other matter? Can you demonstrate why you think that the UN is a neutral arbiter that is effectively accomplishing the goals set out in its charter?

        The rest of your post is another confusing word salad but this bit:

        ” (it doesn’t seem as if he was threatening the PA policeman who shot him, although the throngs massing in Gaza are a physical threat to the IDF)”

        Throngs eh? And is it any wonder that sorry gang get their backsides handed to them any time they’re up against an even halfway decent rival eh? Physically threatened by people not even they claim are armed?

        It’s sad that simple English sentences expressing simple ideas is a “word salad” for you. The word “throngs” is a word of Old English derivation referring to large and densely packed crowds. Since upwards of 30,000 people from Gaza were instigated to mass at the border with Israel on the first day of their assault, throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at Israel’s defense forces and attempting to take down the security barrier and enter my country and threaten my fellow citizens, the word “throngs” is an apt description.

        “I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened.”

        In principle eh? And of course you’d not need the slightest shred of evidence that the person was a ‘threat’? You’d just take it on their word, as you do here?

        If an Israeli civilian (Jewish or otherwise) ignores an order to halt given by Palestinian Authority (“PA”) security and intrudes without permission into areas in Area A of the West Bank that the Oslo Accords designate as falling under PA security jurisdiction and if said Israeli civilian gives PA police reasonable reason to believe that their lives may be threatened or that he may incur serious bodily harm (e.g, if the Israeli civilian throws rocks at the PA policeman, throws an incendiary device such as a Molotov cocktail, or aims fireworks at the PA police — all of which have been documented incidents committed by the so-called “protesters” along the border between Israel and the quasi-state entity controlled by Hamas) then PA security personnel have reasonable grounds to assume that such a person is a threat and should be entitled to protect himself by using deadly force, if necessary.

        You’d just take it on their word, as you do here?

        Of course I don’t “just take it on their word” and I don’t do that with IDF soldiers either. As an IDF veteran, I know for a fact that IDF personnel who are involved in shooting incidents (deadly or otherwise) don’t have their accounts taken at face value.
        What’s so hard to understand? But why do you accept at face value that none of the people attempting incursions into Israeli territory intended to cause harm to IDF personnel or any Israeli civilians they encounter if somehow the IDF would permit them to swarm from Gaza into our country, when even Hamas has acknowledged that many of the so-called “peaceful protesters” are from Hamas’s armed wing ?

      • Mikhael
        April 16, 2018, 5:04 pm

        Mooser March 30, 2018, 4:48 pm
        “And if Moser travels from Kitsap County to British Colombia…/…lethal force.”

        Idiot. The Washington/Canadian border has been a smuggling route for centuries now. Sometimes people are apprehended, and returned to jurisdiction. All without a lot of “lethal force”.

        Poor old Moosie still can’t read. The matter under discussion was not a peaceful interdiction of smugglers (which Israel routinely does) but of people acting in a threatening manner and ignoring a lawful order to stop. Like what happened to Canadian citizen Jamison Chiildress when he attempted to cross illegally into Washington State, ignored a lawful order to halt, and sprayed a chemical at US Border Patrol agents.

        https://globalnews.ca/news/1893270/us-border-patrol-agent-fatally-shoots-man-near-town-on-us-canada-border/
        Canadian Border Services Officers would be justified in using lethal foce if a US citizen threatens them in a similar manner. And Israeli Border Police or IDF personnel who have Molotov cocktails or fireworks aimed at them are justified to do the same.
        Here is an account of one of the Gaza protesters who admitted to shooting fireworks at IDF soldiers and was merely wounded in his hand by rubber bullets.

        We were at the border yesterday and met an 18-year-old Palestinian, Hamada Zaza (ph). His hand was covered in a bandage from a rubber bullet wound. He said he shot fireworks toward soldiers. And I asked him why he was there.

        https://www.npr.org/2018/04/02/598756584/israel-rejects-conducting-investigation-into-gaza-border-violence

        I was actually dismayed at hearing this interview. Unfortunately, because this threat wasn’t permanently neutralized and this individual received a mere rubber bullet injury to his hand, he might yet succeed into coming into my country to kill my fellow citizens.

      • Mooser
        April 16, 2018, 6:09 pm
      • Mikhael
        April 16, 2018, 7:08 pm

        Mooser April 16, 2018, 6:09 pm
        Here you go , “Mikhael”

        I’d suggest you go up to Bellingham and launch bottle rockets or Roman candles at Canadian Border Services Officers to see what happens, but I wouldn’t want any of them to get hurt.

      • Keith
        April 17, 2018, 12:51 am

        MIKHAEL- “This “demonstration” is more about throngs of people attempting to storm a border fence of a country that is not theirs while chanting violent slogans….”

        The demonstration was primarily about ending an illegal and inhumane blockade. But you don’t care about your fellow human beings who aren’t Jewish.

        MIKHAEL- “… people acting in a threatening manner and ignoring a lawful order to stop.”

        A “lawful” order to stop from those enforcing an illegal blockade? Unarmed protesters acting in a “threatening manner?” Is your intellectual and moral integrity of so little importance to you? Must you shred any semblance of human compassion to demonstrate your Zionist solidarity? Israel uber alles?

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2018, 11:47 am

        “Must you shred any semblance of human compassion to demonstrate your Zionist solidarity?”

        Why, “Keith”, how can you say that? “Mikhael” is a moral paragon.

        At 45, and having been married three times (I wound up marrying every woman I was intimate with), and taking care of an octogenarian mother and paying money to my teen twins in Israel and my American college-age daughter, doesn’t leave me time for any “companions”.” “Mikhael”

      • Mikhael
        April 18, 2018, 3:36 pm

        Keith April 17, 2018, 12:51 am
        The demonstration was primarily about ending an illegal and inhumane blockade.

        There is nothing illegal or inhumane about the blockade Israel has imposed on Gaza, which is a territory governed by a quasi-state entity at war with Israel. It is normal, natural and just for one state to prevent a hostile regime from acquiring the means to do harm to its citizens. Luckily for the residents of Gaza, Israel does in fact permit necessary humanitarian aid to enter the entity and still supplies electricity to the Hamas-controlled territory even though the Fatah-controlled PA wasn’t making timely payments.

        But you don’t care about your fellow human beings who aren’t Jewish

        This of course is an assertion without any evidence. As an Israeli citizen, I am of course concerned with the well-being and safety of my fellow citizens of Israel, nearly 25% of whom are not Jewish. Many Israeli citizens murdered by terrorist maniacs from Gaza and the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas in the West Bank have of course been non-Jews. Additionally, a demonstration of concern for safety of all other humans never means forgoing the safety and security of one’s own national group, except when it comes to Jews, apparently.

        Unarmed protesters acting in a “threatening manner?”

        Heaving rocks is use of a weapon. Tossing a Molotov cocktail is use of a weapon. Shooting fireworks is using a weapon. I would tell you to try tossing a Molotov cocktail at your friendly, local police officer and see what happens if you don’t believe me, but I wouldn’t want the officer to be hurt and I wouldn’t want any innocent bystanders to be harmed when you get shot.

        Is your intellectual and moral integrity of so little importance to you?

        I take comfort that generations from now, if this website is archived in the distant future, Jews in Israel will know that in the early 21st century that there were proud Jews who weren’t afraid to speak out against immoral and stupid Jew-hating freaks like you.

      • Mikhael
        April 18, 2018, 3:57 pm

        Mooser April 17, 2018, 11:47 am
        Why, “Keith”, how can you say that? “Mikhael” is a moral paragon.

        “At 45, and having been married three times (I wound up marrying every woman I was intimate with), and taking care of an octogenarian mother and paying money to my teen twins in Israel and my American college-age daughter, doesn’t leave me time for any “companions”.”

        No matter how many times Moser brings up the subject, he’s still never adequately been able to explain why he thinks my admission of having been married and divorced and paying child support is somehow an admission of a moral failing. Most people I know think working hard and taking financial responsibility for children is the right thing to do. I wonder why that seems so bizarre to Moser. At any rate, I’m proud to say that my eldest from my first marriage (who is not Jewish per the Orthodox-Jewish definition, as my first wife isn’t Jewish) has finished college in three years and returned from her first trip to Israel, where she met her sisters and many cousins. She loved the country and the people and is contemplating living there after grad school. And next year my twin girls will be soldiers. In theory I could still do IDF miluim(reserves), except the IDF has cut back the upper age limit for reservists to 41 (I’m 48) –it used to be until 54. It would have been a pleasure to have the privilege to serve at the same time my daughters are in uniform. If I hadn’t spent so many years away from Israel or had at least returned annually to do my reserve duty, they’d let me volunteer for reserves past age 48, but I haven’t done miluim in about almost 20 years.

      • Mooser
        April 18, 2018, 4:07 pm

        .” I would tell you to try tossing a Molotov cocktail at your friendly, local police officer and see what happens”

        Make it a double, and put a ‘rufie’ in it, too!

        “I take comfort…/…aren’t afraid to speak out against immoral and stupid Jew-hating freaks like you”

        “Mikhael”, I hope you included a little brocha for Phil Weiss, for making it possible for you to speak out so bravely. Without him, your chance to be known for anything but serial monogamy in the service of Zionism would never have come about.

      • Mooser
        April 18, 2018, 5:06 pm

        ” thinks my admission of having been married and divorced and paying child support is somehow an admission of a moral failing.”

        What on earth is your problem?
        Stop writing me gets, already.
        I just got a big kick out you saying all that makin’ whoopee was procreating done in the service of Zionism.

      • Keith
        April 18, 2018, 8:22 pm

        MIKHAEL- ” It would have been a pleasure to have the privilege to serve at the same time my daughters are in uniform.”

        Your uncritical loyalty to your one and only fatherland is duly noted. Israel uber alles.

      • Keith
        April 19, 2018, 3:17 pm

        MIKHAEL- “There is nothing illegal or inhumane about the blockade Israel has imposed on Gaza….”

        Of course there is. The ongoing occupation of Gaza through the total control of Gaza’s borders, along with the collective punishment of the Gazans through destroying their economy and causing the poisoning of their environment has been condemned by human rights groups. The pollution alone means that the majority of Gaza’s children are restricted to drinking poisoned water. This is de facto chemical warfare. The European Parliament has made a motion for a resolution calling for the end of this inhumane blockade. I quote and link parts of the resolution.

        “6. Notes with deep concern the warning in various UN reports that the Gaza Strip may become unliveable by 2020; deplores in particular that the health sector is close to collapse, with hospitals facing severe shortages of medicine, equipment and electricity; calls for an immediate and meaningful international effort for the reconstruction and rehabilitation of Gaza, with the aim of easing the humanitarian crisis; applauds the work of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) providing food assistance, access to education and healthcare, and other vital services to the 1.3 million Palestine refugee population in the area;

        7. Calls for an immediate and unconditional end to the blockade and closure of the Gaza Strip, which has resulted in a deteriorating, unprecedented humanitarian crisis in the area;” (European Parliament resolution) http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2fEP%2f%2fTEXT%2bMOTION%2bP8-RC-2018-0191%2b0%2bDOC%2bXML%2bV0%2f%2fEN&language=EN

      • Mikhael
        April 20, 2018, 10:07 am

        Keith April 19, 2018, 3:17 pm
        MIKHAEL- “There is nothing illegal or inhumane about the blockade Israel has imposed on Gaza….”

        Of course there is. The ongoing occupation of Gaza …

        Whatever Israeli “occupation” of Gaza existed ended completely in 2005, and the very word “occupation” connotes that it had been a sovereign state prior to Israeli control in 1967 (it wasn’t, but was under Egyptian occupation preceding 1967).

        the total control of Gaza’s borders

        It’s right, natural and normal for a state to blockade enemy territory under the control of a hostile, armed regime during a state of war and it’s right, natural and normal for a state at war to deny residents of the enemy territory access to its borders and to prevent (to the extent possible) war materiel from reaching the enemy territory. But that’s not occupation. Gaza is a territory under the control of the Hamas regime (do you deny that? — because Hamas doesn’t deny that) and the Hamas terror gang regime is at war with Israel (do you deny that? — Hamas doesn’t deny that). And as Hamas spokespeople have confirmed, Israel does not occupy Gaza.
        The Israeli “occupation” that Hamas seeks to end is the occupation of so-called “Palestine” which they define as every centimeter of territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. They know that Israel doesn’t occupy Gaza though, which they regard as liberated.
        When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,” Zahhar said
        http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=449619

        The European Parliament has made a motion for a resolution calling for the end of this inhumane blockade. I quote and link parts of the resolution

        Quoting a resolution from the European Parliament is a failure to provide evidence that the blockade of enemy territory is illegal. What makes you think the European Parliament has any moral or legal jurisdiction in this matter?

      • Mikhael
        April 20, 2018, 10:22 am

        Keith April 18, 2018, 8:22 pm
        MIKHAEL- ” It would have been a pleasure to have the privilege to serve at the same time my daughters are in uniform.”

        Your uncritical loyalty to your one and only fatherland is duly noted.

        Another attribution without evidence. Like all Israeli citizens, including my non-Jewish fellow citizens, I enjoy and freely exercise the right of freedom of speech to criticize my government on matters of policy and conscience on many issues.

        Israel uber alles

        You’d never catch me saying that Israel is above all else and you have no evidence of me expressing such sentiments. Like your earlier empty allegation that I don’t care about human beings who are not Jewish, this assertion is devoid of evidence. You are a moral simpleton and your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity. But it never works that way, not even for Jews. I am of course, proud of Israel’s humanitarian efforts throughout the globe:
        http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Aid/Pages/Israel_humanitarian_aid.aspx
        https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/world/middleeast/israel-syria-humanitarian-aid.html
        I have encouraged my daughters to volunteer for search-and-rescue training when they get drafted into the IDF next year; in addition to the fact that Israel is in an earthquake zone and is due for a major temblor, IDF teams have recently contributed to earthquake relief in Mexico, as they have in Nepal and Haiti and Turkey and Armenia in the past.
        http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Israeli-trained-volunteers-aid-rescue-efforts-following-Mexico-earthquake-505602
        Most of the beneficiaries have been non-Jews.

      • Keith
        April 20, 2018, 10:40 am

        MIKHAEL- “What makes you think the European Parliament has any moral or legal jurisdiction in this matter?”

        The moral position is quite clear and unambiguous. The blockade is a form of exceedingly harsh collective punishment which has so deteriorated the conditions of life that children are forced to drink mostly unclean water. As for legality, if it wasn’t for empire, this wouldn’t be happening. Like Madeline Albrecht, you think that the death of children is worth it to achieve your Zionist objectives. You apparently have zero empathy for non-Jews, and nothing but contempt for the Palestinians of Gaza. And it shows.

        I am linking to a video of a Q & A with Norman Finkelstein who does care. The first half of the 18 minute video he ridicules BDS which you should enjoy. The second half he talks about Gaza. The blockade of Gaza is a huge crime which you continue to defend. Israel uber alles is a phrase which fits you like a glove.

      • Keith
        April 20, 2018, 5:18 pm

        MIKHAEL- “… your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”

        Have you gone mad? Safety and security? Currently, Jews are perhaps the safest minority on the face of the planet. It is only Zionist ideological propaganda which claims otherwise. This in spite of abundant empirical refutation. Do the math. Over the last ten years, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have been killed by Israel? How many Israelis have been killed by Gazan bottle rockets? What is the kill ratio? Yet you talk of safety and security for Jews (but not for the Palestinians). Have you ever read Nazi propaganda? Even during the height of the Holocaust, the Nazis claimed that Germans were facing an existential threat from international Jewry. It was BS of course, but your claims of a threat to Jews are eerily similar. The notion that militarily powerful Israel is facing a threat to its safety and security from demonstrators protesting the immoral blockade of Gaza, therefore, had to murder many and seriously injure hundreds more (planned in advance) is morally reprehensible and harkens back to a dark time. And “Israel uber alles” is a fitting description based upon your total support, not just for Israel per se, but for the horrible acts of the Jewish state.

      • guyn
        April 20, 2018, 5:55 pm

        “You are a moral simpleton and your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”

        Not for the rest of humanity, but for the Palestinians from whom you stole the territory.

        By the way, you have said you are an Israeli but you bear an uncanny ressemblance with a guy from Montréal with the same first name, a converted Jews who worked at McGill University. Purely coincidental, indeed.

      • Mikhael
        April 20, 2018, 9:09 pm

        Keith April 20, 2018, 5:18 pm

        MIKHAEL- “… your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”
        Have you gone mad? Safety and security? Currently, Jews are perhaps the safest minority on the face of the planet. It is only Zionist ideological propaganda which claims otherwise.

        Jews enjoy safety because we enjoy our independence in our homeland and we are not scattered and defenseless. You have a problem with this. You prefer Jews who are unable to defend themselves. To people like you, that is the natural and correct state of affairs.

        . Over the last ten years, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have been killed by Israel? How many Israelis have been killed by Gazan bottle rockets?

        So far, none have been killed directly by “Gazan bottle rockets,” but dozens of Israeli citizens (including my fellow Israeli citizens who belong to the Arab minority in Israel) have been killed by rockets of the Qassam, Fajr and Grad varieties, as well as mortars fired by the terror gang maniacs from Gaza aimed at Israeli population centers. (One is too many.) When forced into confrontation with Hamas and other terror gangs, the IDF has reduced the number of rockets in Hamas’s (and associated terror gangs’) arsenals, while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum. There is no such thing, however, as urban warfare in a densely populated civilian area (the terrain Israel is forced to operate in against Hamas) in which there will not be civilian casualties. It would be a good thing if, next time, Hamas and the other terror gangs would remove themselves from civilian neighborhoods so that IDF can eradicate them more efficiently without risking innocent civilian lives. Do you think you can convince them to take that step?.

        What is the kill ratio?

        Just out of curiosity, according to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets? Do you think that Israel would have a right to take steps against Hamas (and other terror gangs) , if, theoretically, it would be possible to guarantee that not one single Palestinian Arab would be harmed? Because basically what I am seeing you and other morally deformed specimens say here is that hamas (and other terror gangs) have a right to shoot rockets into Iserael as much as they want in the name of “protest” and “self-defense” and because they only once in a while manage to kill or maim an Israeli citizen, and because we know that if Israel takes military steps to reduce or eradicate rocket-launching sites by bombing those sites in Gaza there is a high probability that some civilians who are in proximity will eventually be harmed or killed, Israel has to just shrug and tolerate rockets launched at it from Gaza and console itself that only once in a while will Hamas actually manage to kill someone. Additionally, you are saying that Israel must end the blockade on Gaza, and let the Hamas regime in power there import whatever war materiel it wants unhindered, because that means they can upgrade their ability to kill Israelis (which is what has happened during the truces, actually, they upgraded from relatively crude Qassams to Grads and Fajrs, all of which they put to use to kill Israelis).

        Yet you talk of safety and security for Jews (but not for the Palestinians).

        No. I’m talking of safety and security for the citizens and legal residents of Israel (whether they are Jews or Arabs or others). It’s a given that Jews collectively will not be in danger as long as Israel exists, however. The best way to guarantee the safety and security of innocent Palestinian Arabs in Gaza is for the government in charge of that quasi-state entity to not fire rockets into the territory of a neighboring state and not join the radicalized elements of the population to mass themselves at the border with a neighboring state and try to cut the border fence while chanting “Death to the Jews” and acting a threatening manner towards IDF and Israeli Border Police personnel. You mentioned “bottle rockets” before, and this is where Hamas has actually used “bottle rockets.” Shooting bottle rockets from several yards away directly at the face of armed police or military personnel is likely to get someone killed anywhere in the world. I would suggest to you,if you don’t believe me, that you attempt such an experiment by aiming and shooting a “bottle rocket” at your friendly neighborhood cop and see what happens. But I wouldn’t want him or her to get hurt (bottle rockets fired at close range can cause serious injury and burns) and when he/she shoots at you there is a danger that an innocent bystander might also be shot. (I’m not that concerned about what happens to you.) So, for the record, I actually don’t encourage you to try this.

        Have you ever read Nazi propaganda? Even during the height of the Holocaust, the Nazis claimed that Germans were facing an existential threat from international Jewry.

        Another fail and so damn unoriginal. Of course, Israel doesn’t make a claim that Palestinian Arab terror is threat to the existence of our state. The hostile Hamas terror-gang regime that governs the quasi-state entity in Gaza does however represent a threat to the lives and physical well-being of Israeli citizens (including non-Jewish citizens of Israel). Hamas rockets don’t discriminate — when a Grad rocket scores a direct hit on a house and collapses a roof on someone or when the shrapnel flies everywhere, these “bottle rockets” don’t know if it’s a Jew or an Arab victim. Also, remind me about the years of terror attacks Germany had to endure from Jews, remind me about the Jewish enclave next to Germany that launches thousands of rockets at German cities.
        It was BS of course, but your claims of a threat to Jews are eerily similar.
        And of course it should go without saying, were it not for the fact that I’m engaging with a deranged and stupid person, that unlike Nazi Germany, which sought to biologically exterminate every single last Jew everywhere on the planet on the grounds of their racial theories (including people who were descended from Jewish grandparents who had been baptized into the Jesus-cult and didn’t even know they were Jews) Israel has never sought to exterminate the various Arabic-speaking non-Jews who have assumed a “Palestinian” national identity in recent decades and has repeatedly sought territorial compromise with them, so that they may enjoy a form of statehood and self-governance in one part of EreṢ Yisra’el (which foreigners named “Palestine,” a name which was never traditionally used by Arabs for the entire country until recent times).

        The notion that militarily powerful Israel is facing a threat to its safety and security from demonstrators protesting the immoral blockade of Gaza

        Let’s pretend that you are capable of thinking and let’s try to do a thought experiment. Let’s imagine that the IDF brass on orders from the defense minister and chief of staff and the PM simply ordered all of its soldiers to stand down and not to engage with any of the tens of thousands of people who had been instigated to amass themselves at the border. with wire cutters and incendiary devices. Just step back and lower all weapons. When they cut through the fence and start showering IDF troops with stones and Molotov cocktails, since we are pretending to live in a strange moral universe where your warped Mondo morality applies, the only options the IDF should have is to run away crying or let themselves be burned to death or stoned to death. Because, ya know, it’s just mean if an IDF soldier with a sniper rifle wounds or kills an “unarmed protester” who is trying to kill him or his friends. And so, let’s imagine that the fence gets knocked down, the IDF soldiers piss their pants and run when they see the crowd. Then what? Freedom for Gaza and the residents of the Strip will shower all the citizens of Israel with love and friendship? Everybody will live happily ever after, right? I know you’re not very bright, but you’re not that stupid as to actually believe that, are you? Convince me that will be the result and I will try to convince all the people I know in the IDF to stand down or not serve.

        therefore, had to murder many and seriously injure hundreds more (planned in advance) is morally reprehensible and harkens back to a dark time

        Yes, Hamas planned this in advance and was warned that Israel will protect its border and that IDF soldiers will value their own lives before the lives of anyone who is threatening threatening their lives or safety. That is right, moral and just and it is the operating principle of any country and any military or police personnel anywhere in the world, not just Israel. It is morally reprehensible that you think an IDF soldier or MAGAVnik (border police) — whether a Jewish soldier/border police or an Arab Muslim or a Muslim Circassian soldier or a Christian soldier or a Druze soldier in the IDF/MAGAV has no right to protect himself or herself or his or her friends when a lunatic hurls a Molotov cocktail at them by using lethal means (if necessary) to protect himself or herself against someone who is attempting to use potentially lethal means against him or her. Heaved rocks and incendiary devices are not means of peaceful protest.

        is a fitting description based upon your total support, not just for Israel per se, but for the horrible acts of the Jewish state

        I totally support Israel’s right to exist and I am totally confident that it will exist as a Jewish nation-state until such time as all nation-states cease to exist. Hateful freaks like you have a problem with Jews living in their own independent polity in their own historical national homeland; but that’s your problem. Unfortunately, hateful freaks like you help encourage intransigence among the Palestinian Arabs and prevent a possible compromise that could enable them to obtain a sovereign state of their own (the first Palestinian Arab state — ever!) in some parts of the former British Mandate of Palestine between the Jordan iver and the Mediterranean Sea in which they constitute the majority.

      • guyn
        April 20, 2018, 11:51 pm

        When forced into confrontation with Hamas and other terror gangs, the IDF…

        More often than not, Israel initiates the confrontations.

        https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/infographic-who-violates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians

        https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/

        how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets?

        Same thing for Hamas: how many deaths, how many shooting of Palestinians are they required to suffer before it is allowed to respond? And since Israel, more often than not initiates the confrontations…

      • Keith
        April 21, 2018, 1:04 am

        MIKHAEL- “Jews enjoy safety because we enjoy our independence in our homeland and we are not scattered and defenseless.”

        The notion that Israel contributes to Jewish security is Zionist BS. Pray, tell us how? Murdering Palestinians protesting the blockade of Gaza makes Jews more secure? Are you a distant relative of Heinrich Himmler? Your Zionazi roots run strong and deep.

        MIKHAEL- “Just out of curiosity, according to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets?”

        According to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have to be slaughtered before they (ineffectually) respond with bottle rockets? The kill ratio says it all, who is the victim and who the victimizer? But you don’t care at all about the Palestinians, just about the few Jews who died as a result of the ineffectual retaliation. You wouldn’t say any of this BS if the situation was reversed. Why don’t you spend some time in Gaza to establish your tikkun olam bonafides?

        MIKHAEL- “Hateful freaks like you have a problem with Jews living in their own independent polity in their own historical national homeland….”

        Hateful freaks? Who am I murdering? Am I attempting to justify murder? Look in the mirror, jerk. You wear your Zionazi mentality on your sleeve. I have nothing but contempt for you.

      • MHughes976
        April 21, 2018, 3:24 am

        No one is asked to forego normal rights to life and property because of being Jewish anywhere in the world. No one, Jewish or not, should maintain life and property by violation of the rights of others, such as exclusion from homes and subjection to sovereign power in disfranchised state, at very minimal least without clear indication that this state is temporary and its end actively planned. ‘Sometimes’ it is said ‘there is a necessity to do what is not right’. These remarks are often self-serving and facile, creating a poisonous exhilaration at being freed from moral restraint. But even were they true they would create an obligation to make an effort, and a visble effort, to escape the situation. That is why the most important short term step would be a statement by Israel of what it would regard as a fair long-term solution.

      • Mooser
        April 21, 2018, 12:30 pm

        “Mikhael” , budya, you take more friggin’ space to say “Who are you going to believe, me, or your lying eyes?” than anybody except maybe “Jeffb”!

      • Mikhael
        April 22, 2018, 4:56 pm

        guyn April 20, 2018, 11:51 pm
        When forced into confrontation with Hamas and other terror gangs, the IDF…

        More often than not, Israel initiates the confrontations.

        https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/infographic-who-violates-ceasefires-more-israelis-or-palestinians

        https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/

        Propagandists like Abunimah push the narrative that Israel violated ceasefires with Hamas, and dupes like you lick it up, but Hamas never agreed to any ceasefire with Israel for Israel to violate. What Hamas has agreed to at times and which they, as radical Islamist fundamentalist zealots, deem “halal” when it comes to dealings with Jewish infidels is merely a tahadiya (‏تهدئة‎), which is not a cease fire or a long-term truce. The word translates to a “calming down”. So many of the alleged Israeli violations occurred after incidents in which gangs like Islamic Jihad or Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which are affiliated fanatic Jew-hating terror gangs operating out of Hamas-controlled Gaza, launched rockets at Israel. Hamas (and Western propagandists like the American, Abunimah) will then accuse Israel of a “cease fire violation” because, after all, it wasn’t technically Hamas that initiated attacks (just an affiliated gang that operates with Hamas’s permission out of the territory that Hamas controls) when Israel takes steps aimed at reducing the ability of these terror gangs to launch additional rockets and uncritical, unthinking people like you lap it up. Also, many of the so-called Israeli “violations” during tahidiya periods were actions against Hamas gang members outside Gaza. Hamas claims that they undertook an obligation not to launch rockets from Gaza at Israeli cities (although Islamic Jihad and al Aqsa Martyr Brigades regard themselves as exempt and Hamas does little to rein them in), but they still reserve the right to continue their “armed resistance” elsewhere. So when Israel has actionable intelligence about a Hamas (or an affiliated terror gang) cell from the “West Bank” (to use a name applied by the Hashemites for that region) planning an attack and takes steps to neutralize such threats, propagandists for Hamas cite this as an Israeli “cease fire violation”. One other neat little self-serving thing about a tahadiya under Hamas’s interpretation of Islamic law (ignored by dupes like you) is that the Muslim party to a tahadiya “cease fire” has the exclusive unilateral right to announce the end of the tahadiya (when it’s convenient for them) without it being considered a “violation,” but if the non-Muslim party does so, it’s “no fairsies” and a violation of the tahadiya.

        “how many Israeli casualties is Israel required to suffer before it is allowed to respond to Hamas rockets?”

        Same thing for Hamas: how many deaths, how many shooting of Palestinians are they required to suffer before it is allowed to respond?

        The sole purpose of Hamas (and affiliate terror gangs) firing rockets and mortars at Israeli population centers from Gaza is to murder and maim Israel civilians and cause mayhem to the Israeli economy, and because these rockets only relatively infrequently actually manage to kill or severely wound Israeli civilians (dozens have been killed, scores have been severely wounded, including people needing amputations and being blinded, thousands have been less severely wounded (burns, lesions) and hundreds of thousands have been traumatized (since scores of Israeli civilians have actually been killed and maimed and burned and blinded by the Hamas rockets and mortars),not to mention the billions of dollars of damage inflicted on the Israeli economy through property damage and the cost of developing, maintaining and using our largely effective Iron Dome Defense system), it would seem as if the relatively low number of Israelis killed is not enough to satisfy your and the average Mondoweiss fellow traveler’s blood lust, however, we Israelis don’t dismiss or disregard our casualties, and we are NOT SORRY that we haven’t accommodated the desires of Hamas/Islamic Jihad/al Aqsa Martyr Brigades and the likes of guyn for more dead Israelis. We take comfort that our blockade on Gaza has been somewhat effective (not completely) in preventing Hamas from obtaining war materiel in higher quantities and of higher quality (Hamas has succeeded in acquiring better and more sophisticated rockets like Fajrs and Grads and they probably have Khaibars, as opposed to the primitive Qassam types, which have longer range and do more damage and they have put them to use) that will make it easier for them to endanger the lives of our citizens. IYou prefer otherwise. You prefer that we lift the blockade completely in order for Hamas to obtain more and better rockets so that they can more easily kill Israelis. While it’s patently obvious that you think more dead people in Israel (especially if they are Jews, although as I’ve shown repeatedly, these indiscriminate attacks have also claimed the lives of my Arab fellow citizens of Israel as well as non-Jewish residents or guest workers in Israel) is a desirable outcome, try a little empathy and try to understand why an Israeli citizen with close family members who live very close to Gaza might not agree with that proposition.
        Unlike Hamas rockets launched toward Israel, which have a sole aim to kill or maim, or at the very least cause panic in our society and damage to our economy, the purpose of Israeli attacks on Gaza is to target Hamas rocket-launching sites and command centers and to prevent that regime (and its affiliate proxies) from launching rockets at Israeli population centers. A good way for Hamas to guarantee the safety of the civilians it claims to “protect” would be to disarm and forswear any and all military confrontation with Israel; then there would be no need for Israel to take steps at eliminating (or at the very least reducing) Hamas’s rocket stockpile and the terror gang members and commanders who use this arsenal against Israel. If they won’t repudiate violence and insist on confrontation, a good way to protect innocent civilian lives in Gaza would be for Hamas to move all of its launchers and the terror gang personnel who operate the rocket launchers, as well as the higher-level commanders who tell them when to launch the rockets, as well as the political operatives in Hamas who decide policy, to uninhabited areas (despite the fact that Gaza is densely populated, there are still open areas), far enough away from innocent civilians so as not to cause risk to life or limb, that way the IDF can efficiently eradicate these rockets and assist these Hamas members to attain their fervent wish to become martyrs. That way no civilians will be harmed. Or Hamas can announce that they are looking forward to peaceful and neighborly relations, an end to military confrontation and a renunciation of calls for the slaughter of Jews as contrary to the principles of Islam and and a recognition of a Jewish state in the ancestral homeland of the Jews, EreṢ Yisrae’el and then the two parties can proceed to iron out the details of borders and trade relations and all that good stuff. It’s sad though that brainwashed freaks like you, living in Canada facilitate Palestinian Arab intransigence and encourage them to continue with a war against Israel that they’ll never win. I’m an optimist though, so I believe that in 50, 100, 150 years or so there’s a chance they’ll moderate their position.

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2018, 5:22 pm

        “Mikhael” now I know why constant haranguing can be considered a form of ‘mental cruelty’.

      • Keith
        April 22, 2018, 6:05 pm

        MIKHAEL- “Propagandists like Abunimah push the narrative that Israel violated ceasefires with Hamas, and dupes like you lick it up, but Hamas never agreed to any ceasefire with Israel for Israel to violate.”

        Bullshit! You are a shameless propagandist. I provide two Noam Chomsky quotes to establish the reality which shamelessly seek to deny.

        “The official story is that after Israel graciously handed Gaza over to the Palestinians, in the hope that they would construct a flourishing state, they revealed their true nature by subjecting Israel to unremitting rocket attack and forcing the captive population to become martyrs to so that Israel would be pictured in a bad light. Reality is rather different.

        A few weeks after Israeli troops withdrew, leaving the occupation intact, Palestinians committed a major crime. In January 2006, they voted the wrong way in a carefully monitored free election, handing control of the Parliament to Hamas. The media constantly intone that Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. In reality, its leaders have repeatedly made it clear and explicit that Hamas would accept a two-state settlement in accord with the international consensus that has been blocked by the US and Israel for 40 years. In contrast, Israel is dedicated to the destruction of Palestine, apart from some occasional meaningless words, and is implementing that commitment.
        ….
        The crime of the Palestinians in January 2006 was punished at once. The US and Israel, with Europe shamefully trailing behind, imposed harsh sanctions on the errant population and Israel stepped up its violence. By June, when the attacks sharply escalated, Israel had already fired more than 7700 [155 mm] shells at northern Gaza.

        There should be no need to review again the horrendous record since. The relentless siege and savage attacks are punctuated by episodes of “mowing the lawn,” to borrow Israel’s cheery expression for its periodic exercises of shooting fish in a pond in what it calls a “war of defense.” Once the lawn is mowed and the desperate population seeks to reconstruct somehow from the devastation and the murders, there is a cease-fire agreement. These have been regularly observed by Hamas, as Israel concedes, until Israel violates them with renewed violence.” (Noam Chomsky)
        http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/outrage/

        “On August 26th, Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) both accepted a ceasefire agreement after a 50-day Israeli assault on Gaza that left 2,100 Palestinians dead and vast landscapes of destruction behind. The agreement calls for an end to military action by both Israel and Hamas, as well as an easing of the Israeli siege that has strangled Gaza for many years.

        This is, however, just the most recent of a series of ceasefire agreements reached after each of Israel’s periodic escalations of its unremitting assault on Gaza. Throughout this period, the terms of these agreements remain essentially the same. The regular pattern is for Israel, then, to disregard whatever agreement is in place, while Hamas observes it — as Israel has officially recognized — until a sharp increase in Israeli violence elicits a Hamas response, followed by even fiercer brutality. These escalations, which amount to shooting fish in a pond, are called “mowing the lawn” in Israeli parlance. The most recent was more accurately described as “removing the topsoil” by a senior U.S. military officer, appalled by the practices of the self-described “most moral army in the world.” (Noam Chomsky) http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/whats-next-for-israel-hamas-and-gaza/

      • Mikhael
        April 22, 2018, 6:20 pm

        Keith April 21, 2018, 1:04 am
        MIKHAEL- “Jews enjoy safety because we enjoy our independence in our homeland and we are not scattered and defenseless.”

        The notion that Israel contributes to Jewish security is Zionist BS. Pray, tell us how? Murdering Palestinians protesting the blockade of Gaza makes Jews more secure?

        Hi again, stupid. I’ll try yet again to break it down again for you step by step in a way very simple minds like yours might be able to comprehend (unfortunately though, you’re also far too hateful to absorb and learn anything even when I am kindly explaining things in a way that other stupid people may be able to understand). Point number 1. The blockade against Gaza makes Israel and its citizens safer. Point number 2. The majority of Israeli citizens are Jews, thus the blockade makes Jews safer. Point number 3. The reason the IDF blockade on Gaza makes Israeli citizens and residents and visitors (Jews and non-Jews) safer is that Gaza is a quasi state entity controlled by a hostile regime that has made outright genocidal threats against Israel and Jews. Point number 4.The threats made against Israel by Hamas and Israeli civilians are not mere empty rhetoric, they have a long history of terror operations against, including suicide bombs in Israel going back decades and rocket and mortar attacks from the Gaza enclave that they control and which they have admitted is not in any way occupied by Israel. Point number 5. The IDF blockade makes it more difficult for Hamas (and other terror gangs operating in Gaza) to obtain rockets and mortars and other types of war materiel to kill Israelis with. It is not 100% effective, as all blockades can be circumvented through various means, but it definitely curtails the amount and the quality of rockets and other type of weaponry Hamas can obtain. This is a good thing. Point number 6 An end to the Israeli blockade would enable Hamas (and other affiliate terror gangs operating in Gaza) to obtain more and higher-quality rockets and missiles and mortars and guns to kill Israelis with. Point number 7 The protests are intended to create pressure on Israel to ease up or end the blockade so that more weapons and rockets and missiles can be brought into Gaza to kill Israelis with. Point number 8 The IDF soldiers and Border Police (including Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel) are tasked with protecting the border and enforcing the blockade. Point number 9 the throngs who have been provoked by Hamas to mass at the border have attempted to cut down the fence, which prevents armed terrorists from Gaza from entering Israel and have thrown firebombs and stones at the IDF/Border Police troops who guard the border and protecting their fellow citizens. Point number 10. Incendiary devices like Molotov cocktails can cause serious injury or death.Point number 11 Throwing an incendiary device like a Molotov cocktail is not a peaceful protest and is intended to cause serious injury or death. Point number 12 An armed soldier guarding a border and enforcing a blockade which is meant to prevent armed terrorists from entering his or her country and preventing a fanatic terror gang regime from obtaining higher-quantity and higher-quality weapons has an absolute moral right to protect himself or herself from someone heaving a rock that can seriously injure and sometimes kill people or a Molotov cocktail that can burn or kill. Point number 13 An armed soldier who sees someone who has hurled or is about to hurl a Molotov cocktail, or a rock, has a right to shoot such a person; there is no obligation to take the risk of possibly burning to death or even having their nose broken by a rock.

        According to your freakishly warped moral calculus, how many Palestinians living in Gaza have to be slaughtered before they (ineffectually) respond with bottle rockets?

        Fajrs, Grads al Quds and even Qassams are not bottle rockets. Bottle rockets don’t severely damage buildings and cause roofs to collapse and kill people. You usually have to get in to very close range to potentially hurt someone with a “bottle rocket”. (Like the so-called peaceful protesters at the fence aiming “bottle rocket”-type devices directly at the faces of IDF/Border Guard personnel just yards away have recently been doing.) But the aforementioned Qassams, al Quds, Grads, and Fajrs have destroyed buildings and killed and maimed dozens of Israelis. Those are not “bottle rockets”. Things like “bottle rockets,” however, are currently being used now to try to wound or blind IDF soldiers at the borders while claiming peaceful protest in order to increase pressure on OIsrael to end the blockade on Gaza so Hamas can get more Fajrs and Grads and Khaibars and who knows what else. And of course it’s normal for an IDF soldier/Border Police who observes someone aiming a “bottle rocket” directly at him to assume that the person aiming it wants to injure or kill him and has the has a right and duty to use means to protect himself, including lethal force. Any military or police officer has the same right, anywhere in the world. If you go up to your friendly Seattle cop and shoot bottle rockets at him or her from close range you should assume that you will be shot. (Again, for the record, I don’t encourage you to try this, the cop may actually be hurt and they might miss you and hurt an innocent bystander and we would not either of those two things to happen.)

        The kill ratio says it all, who is the victim and who the victimizer?

        Oh, I agree that we Israelis, as a society, are definitely not victims. Victims don’t defend themselves. There’s nothing noble about being a victim. There are definitely innocent Palestinian Arab civilians who are victimized, because the terror gang regime that controls Gaza insists on siting its rocket launchers, arsenals and terror operatives where they live.

        But you don’t care at all about the Palestinians

        It is unfortunate that despite best efforts, Israel, when it is forced to confront Hamas and take steps to minimize and eradicate rockets and other weapons, cannot 100% prevent civilian casualties when engaging an enemy in a densely populated civilian area. I have suggested several times now that you encourage Hamas and the other terror gangs to relocate their operatives and their weapons stockpiles to some of the empty areas in Gaza (there are still many such areas despite the propaganda that there is not) and then the IDF can eliminate them without endangering civilian life or limb.

        just about the few Jews who died as a result of the ineffectual retaliation.

        As I have demonstrated several times already, many of the Israeli citizens (as well as non-citizens temporarily residing in Israel) who have been killed or severely wounded by hostile action from Gaza have been non-Jews. They are my fellow citizens (and in the case of Thai workers and others who have been killed by Hamas rocket and mortar fire, guests of my country) and our army has the same duty to protect them as it does for the Jewish citizens of Israel.

        Why don’t you spend some time in Gaza to establish your tikkun olam bonafides?

        What does “tiqun olam” have to do with it? That is a Mishnaic (disucssed in the tractate of “Gittin” regarding divorces) and later a Qabalastic concept that has to do with prayer and holy acts and prayer to restore “God’s” essence to the world after the shattered shards of divine luminescence were lost in the firmament of creation. I am an atheist-leaning agnostic and I certainly don’t believe in such nonsense. It has nothing to do with what later movements in Judaism have distorted it into. However, I always try to do my small part to make the world a better place in the way the the modern Jewish movements have distorted the ancient concept of “tiqqun olam” , although there’s only so much one person can do. I do my recycling and am kind to my neighbors and people I meet, evenfor a New Yorker, I donate to charities to the extent I am able (I have three kids to support and NYC is an expensive town), I ride my bicycle and try to reduce my carbon footprint. And I am not filled with bile against people because of their national identity, country of origin, their religion or lack thereof, as you clearly are against one very specific group.

        Hateful freaks? … Am I attempting to justify murder?

        Umm…yes. You clearly dismiss Israeli fatalities as a result of Hamas rockets and mortars (not to mention suicide bombings and other outrages committed by Hamas over the years) as “the few Jews who died as a result of the ineffectual retaliation”. What can that possibly mean other than that you think Hamas has a natural right to kill a few Jews (never mind that not all of their victims in Israel have been Jews — also let’s not forget they’ve killed plenty of their rivals in Gaza as well) and themilitary of the Jewish State has no right to take steps to prevent them form killing more Israeli citizens (whether Jews or non-Jews). I asked you before to try a thought experiment and play pretend, under what circumstances would you concede that Israel ever has a right to use force against Hamas?

        I have nothing but contempt for you.

        Well, that is exactly the kind of comment a Jew-hating freak would make.

      • echinococcus
        April 22, 2018, 8:32 pm

        Michael having the runs in public again and again is proof that our “moderators” are not reading.

      • Keith
        April 23, 2018, 1:00 am

        MIKHAEL- “Hi again, stupid…./…. I do my recycling and am kind to my neighbors and people I meet, evenfor a New Yorker, I donate to charities to the extent I am able (I have three kids to support and NYC is an expensive town), I ride my bicycle and try to reduce my carbon footprint.”

        Get some therapy! If you must be a Judeocentric, EGOCENTRIC justifier of murder, at least be succinct. Read what Chomsky said. The white man’s burden was/is to vilify his victims in order to justify his crimes. The Ashkenazi man’s burden additionally makes the writer ramble endlessly and incoherently in order for the victimizer to claim victimhood. Why else justify the unjustifiable by spurious claims of hatred. Projection? I think so. Methinks Mikhael doth protest too much, particularly in view of the situation. Why don’t you switch places with the Gazans so that you can terrorized them while they cower in fear around their swimming pools? Eating picnic lunches on the hillside watching the bombs drop? Israel uber alles, Herr Mikhael.

      • eljay
        April 23, 2018, 8:12 am

        || Mikhael: … the answer to your bizarro world scenario is … ||

        Since I didn’t ask a question, the only “bizarre world scenario” you answered was your straw-man.

      • eljay
        April 23, 2018, 8:14 am

        || Mikhael: … Oh, I agree that we Israelis, as a society, are definitely not victims. Victims don’t defend themselves. … ||

        So…all those Jews who died defending themselves against Nazism were not victims of Hitler’s genocidal policies. Wow. That is exactly the kind of comment a Jew-hating freak would make.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 11:47 am

        “Why don’t you kiss her instead of talking her to death?”
        – “It’s a Wonderful Life”

    • John O
      March 30, 2018, 10:59 am

      Why the quote marks around the words ‘right of return’? Even if you don’t support it, it’s a genuine aspiration, not a piece of fiction.

      Would you describe the very similar ‘March for our Lives’ as ‘mass theatre’?

      Five lives – so far.

      As for an Israeli victory – as the ancient King Pyrrhus is reputed to have said, ‘Another victory like that and we’re done for.’

      • festus
        March 30, 2018, 11:18 am

        Why the quote marks around the words ‘right of return’? Even if you don’t support it, it’s a genuine aspiration, not a piece of fiction.

        It’s actually a legal requirement, is it not?

    • Shingo
      March 30, 2018, 5:35 pm

      It overlooks — blinds the reader to — the purpose of the exercise: to establish the “right of return” via mass theatre and plenty of martyrdom.

      Isn’t that exactly how the Jewish state was established? By flooding Palestine with Jewish immigrants and refugees (who had never even been to Palestine) and mass martyrdom by suck sacrifices and blowing us the Patria in Haifa Harbor, killing over 200 Holocaust survivors? The whole purpose being to dissuade the British from sending Jewish refugees to Camps in Mauritius.

      I suppose form this perspective, the loss of 220 lives amounted to an Israel victory and a sad sacrifice of Palestinian lives.

    • Misterioso
      March 30, 2018, 10:48 pm

      @Naftush

      BULLCRAP that only a fascistic Zionist zealot could come up with.

    • Misterioso
      March 31, 2018, 11:11 am

      @Naftush

      You neglected to note the important fact that the Palestinian demonstrators did not cross the border.

    • Misterioso
      March 31, 2018, 2:33 pm

      @Naftush

      Time to wake up from your hasbara induced dream:

      Reality:

      https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-gaza-carnage-is-victory-for-hamas-propaganda-nightmare-for-israel-1.5962887?utm_term=20180331-13%3A29&utm_campaign=Chemi+Shalev&utm_medium=email&writerAlerts=true&utm_source=smartfocus&utm_content=www.haaretz.com%2Fisrael-news%2F1.5962887

      “Gaza Carnage Is a Victory for Hamas – and a Propaganda Nightmare for Israel.”

      “Trump’s unqualified support bolsters Netanyahu but could also spark international backlash from critics of both.”
      By Chemi Shalev. Mar 31, 2018 – Haaretz.

      EXCERPTS:
      “For the first time in a long while, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict took a central place over the weekend in international media news reports. Israeli spokespersons did supply evidence of Hamas militants trying to breach the border fence in Gaza under the guise of a supposedly popular protest, but Western opinion makers preferred the viral video of a Palestinian teen getting shot in the back and an overarching narrative of despondent Gazans protesting their oppression and blockade. Fifteen Palestinians were killed, hundreds were injured and the fence remained intact, but in the battlefield of propaganda, Hamas scored a victory.

      “Future developments are also in the hands of the Islamic organization. The more Hamas persists with the ‘March of the Million,’ as it has been dubbed, and the more it succeeds in separating the protests from acts of violence and terror, the more it will succeed in defying and embarrassing Israel as well as Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority. If commanders of the Israel Defense Forces don’t find a way to repel efforts to breach the fence without causing so many casualties, Israel’s predicament will grow exponentially.

      “Friday’s day of bloodshed may be quickly forgotten if it remains a solitary event, but if the bloodshed recurs over and over during the six-week campaign that is slated to culminate on the Palestinian Nakba Day in mid-May, the international community will be forced to refocus its attentions on the conflict. Criticism of, and pressure on, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, which has virtually evaporated in recent months, could return with a vengeance.

      • echinococcus
        March 31, 2018, 3:05 pm

        Misterioso,

        What a slimy bullshitter that Chalev is…

        Friday’s day of bloodshed may be quickly forgotten if it remains a solitary event, but if the bloodshed recurs over and over…

        It’s been recurring over and over for 70 years, and it’s been recurring over and over every Land Day. He figures that we’ll pretend to ignore that just because of his BS.

    • Misterioso
      March 31, 2018, 7:18 pm

      @Naftush

      https://www.facebook.com/walidmahmoudd/videos/1874284805977731/

      https://mail.yahoo.com/d/folders/1/messages/AG-QxAoAAARIWsASIQdTACd5PmA

      Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, March 31/18

      “Gaza Protesters Met With Lethal Force”

      “Thousands of Gazans marched to their border with Israel calling for an end to the more than 10-year blockade. Israeli soldiers used live ammunition and tear gas against the peaceful protesters, killing 17. Watch and share this video, created by our former intern, a New Story Leader, and his friend back home.

      “Ambassador Husam Zomlot, the head of the Palestinian General Delegation to the United States, said in a statement issued Saturday, that the Israeli Occupation Forces indiscriminate murder of 17 peaceful demonstrators and the wounding of hundreds in Gaza, is morally repugnant and a crime against humanity.

      “’Our legitimate protest against Israeli military occupation, colonization and apartheid is granted in international law and must be protected by the international community.’ Dr. Zomlot added that ‘the 70-year-old practice of Israel’s shoot-to-kill policy and dehumanization of the Palestinian people must end and Israeli criminals must be brought to justice.’

      “He added, ‘these atrocities deserve the strongest condemnation from the U.S. government and action to uphold international law.'”

    • Mikhael
      April 20, 2018, 9:44 pm

      guyn April 20, 2018, 5:55 pm

      “You are a moral simpleton and your words imply that that Jews, and Jews alone, are required to forfeit their own safety and security to convincingly demonstrate a concern for the rest of humanity.”

      Not for the rest of humanity, but for the Palestinians from whom you stole the territory.

      Thank you for openly admitting your hatred and bigotry and saying that Jews and Jews alone are required to forfeit their safety and security in order to demonstrate a concern for Palestinian Arabs, including those in Gaza who live in a self-governing quasi-state entity that is not ruled by Israel and which you yet seem to think was “stolen” by Israel. You just said it yourself. We Israeli Jews don’t have a right to safety and security.

      By the way, you have said you are an Israeli but you bear an uncanny resemblance with a guy from Montréal with the same first name, a converted Jews who worked at McGill University. Purely coincidental, indeed.

      By the way, you should know that “Guy” (גיא) is also a common Hebrew given name in Israel. It means “valley” Are you by any chance related to my pal Guy Nissim? His initials were also “guyn” when I think of it. What a great guy is GUY. But in this case, it’s purely coincidental. Anywa, you’re only off by a few hundred miles. My Sephardic/Mizrahi Israeli father (17 generations of his family were born in EreṢ Yisra’el, in Ṣfat (Safed) and in Jerusalem) was offered a post-doc fellowship at McGill but ultimately accepted one at MIT (so I like to joke that I’m almost Canadian), and my (Hungarian-Ashkenazi immigrant background) Israeli mother did her Master’s at Northeastern University. That’s how I came to be born in Boston (and I was raised mostly in NYC and Israel, with a short sojourn in Nebraska) . I’ve visited Montreal twice (I liked it!), once as a kid and once in my early 20s. I even spent one night in a dorm room on the McGill campus, I think, because it was summer break it was temporarily converted into budget hostel lodging. But that was back in 1992 and I haven’t been back since. I live in NYC (I earn more money in NYC than I can earn in Israel and I have an American daughter from one marriage that I help support as well as Israeli daughters living in Israel from another marriage that I help support). The income I would earn in Israel wouldn’t enable me to support my daughterr in the USA. Additionally, my octogenarian mother doesn’t want to move back to Israel after spending decades in the US, and as my many of my siblings are in back in Israel, she also relies on me to be a part-time caregiver.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 11:49 am

        “Mikhael”, you’re like a bad sailor , you’ve got a storm in every port.

  2. HarryLaw
    March 30, 2018, 10:30 am

    At least seven Palestinians have been killed and hundreds wounded by Israeli forces in Gaza.
    All these Palestinians were on the Palestinian side of the heavily fortified barrier, some were killed by Israeli snipers set up to kill the “Ringleaders”, some were killed by Tank fire. Firing into a prison is murder pure and simple.

  3. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    March 30, 2018, 11:11 am

    The Guardian – once a fine newspaper but now barely distinguishable from the New York Times – has done much the same. We’re told that the victims ‘died in clashes’ as though they suddenly became ill there and then, rather than that they were shot at close range by an occupation army. The first words of the piece are ‘Israel says….” and mos tof it consists of quotes from Israeli officials about their ‘fears’ of how violent the march might be.

    All of which angers me, but makes me so, so happy that the Graun is reduced to begging from its readers after nearly every article these days.

  4. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    March 30, 2018, 11:23 am

    I see one of the propaganda lines – in the time-honoured ‘We’re just a normal democracy doing what anyone would do in difficult circumstances” style – is to say “What would you do if masses of protestors approached your borders?”

    Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I’m pretty sure that Israel has never declared its borders. So why are they referring to them here? Shouldn’t the NYT and other ‘news’ organisations put the word ‘borders’ in scare quotes, just out of accuracy?

    • festus
      March 30, 2018, 2:07 pm

      Many of the comments on the website blaming Iran and/or Hamas and absolving Israel of all guilt and complaining that Israel is unfairly held to a higher standard. I have to include nothing can reach such folks. They must be kept away from any levers of power in any sane and humane society.

  5. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    March 30, 2018, 3:08 pm

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews, the Israeli-embassy linked organisation which has played a major role in the anti Corbyn smear campaign, has come out with a predictable statement blaming the victims.

    But from Corbyn himself, not a peep. Zilch. Nada. Rien. 3 years ago, maybe even 1 year ago, he would have made a statement comdemning this within hours, I am sure.

    He has been neutered. The smear campaign has worked. Another one bites the dust.

    • Maghlawatan
      March 30, 2018, 8:35 pm

      Corbyn’s view is that Israel is # hopeless. Today is more proof.
      The Board of Deputies is also #hopeless.
      Let the consequences happen. It doesn’t matter whether or not Corbyn says anything. Freedland and Freeman have a beaten docket.
      Jewish lobby power is only as good as the product and the product is dogshit.
      This reminds me of the News of the World…..

  6. JLewisDickerson
    March 30, 2018, 3:38 pm

    RE: The dishonesty starts in the first sentence of the Times report, which contends that the protests “descended almost immediately into chaos and bloodshed,” with “at least five Palestinians killed in clashes with Israeli soldiers.” ~ North

    TO GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE: That is incredibly clever obfuscation! Quite impressive! Way to go, NYT! Fox News will be ‘pea green with envy’!

  7. JLewisDickerson
    March 30, 2018, 3:49 pm

    RE: The bias continues in the second paragraph of the Times report, which asserts — without quotation marks — that “thousands of Palestinians were rioting in six locations along the border.” By contrast, both the Guardian and the BBC in their reports put the word “rioting” in quotes, and attributed it clearly to the Israeli military, underscoring that it is a claim from one side, not a proven fact. ~ North

    MY COMMENT: If I recall correctly, the New York Times acknowledged years ago that they meekly comply with the dictates of Israel’s Military Censor(s).

  8. JLewisDickerson
    March 30, 2018, 3:57 pm

    BBC UPDATE (37 minutes ago) :
    Gaza-Israel border: Clashes ‘leave 12 Palestinians dead and hundreds injured’
    LINK – http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43593594

    ALSO SEE: “Netanyahu: Stupid Like a Fox?” | By Uri Avnery | Antiwar.com | June 13, 2011

    [EXCERPT] Last week, there was a repeat performance. The Palestinians all around Israel have declared June 5 “Naksa” Day, to commemorate the “Setback” of 1967, when Israel spectacularly defeated the armies of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan, reinforced by elements from the Iraqi and Saudi armies.

    This time, the Israeli army was prepared. The fence was reinforced and an anti-tank ditch dug in front of it. When the demonstrators tried to reach the fence—again near Majdal Shams—they were shot by sharpshooters. Some 22 were killed, and many dozens were wounded. The Palestinians report that people trying to rescue the wounded and retrieve the dead were also shot and killed.

    No doubt this was a deliberate tactic decided upon in advance by the army command after the Naqba Day fiasco and approved by Benjamin Netanyahu and Ehud Barak. As was said quite openly, the Palestinians had to be taught a lesson they would not forget, so as to drive any idea of an unarmed mass action out of their minds.

    It is frighteningly reminiscent of events 10 years ago. After the first Intifada, in which stone-throwing youngsters and children won a moral victory that led to the Oslo agreement, our army conducted exercises in anticipation of a second Intifada. This broke out after the political disaster of Camp David, and the army was ready.

    The new [Second] Intifada started with mass demonstrations of unarmed Palestinians. They were met by specially trained sharpshooters. Next to each sharpshooter stood an officer who pointed out the individuals who were to be shot because they looked like ringleaders: “The guy in the red shirt… Now the boy with the blue trousers…”

    The unarmed uprising broke down and was replaced by suicide bombers, roadside bombs, and other “terrorist” acts. With those our army was on familiar ground.

    I suspect very much that we are witnessing much the same thing once more. Again, specially trained sharpshooters are at work, directed by officers. . .

    SOURCE – http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2011/06/12/netanyahu-stupid-like-a-fox/kilhgj

    • JLewisDickerson
      March 30, 2018, 4:46 pm

      P.S. CORRECTED LINK:

      SOURCE ( “Netanyahu: Stupid Like a Fox?”) – https://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2011/06/12/netanyahu-stupid-like-a-fox/

    • JLewisDickerson
      March 30, 2018, 5:08 pm

      P.P.S. ALSO SEE: “The Dogs of War: The Next Intifada”, By Uri Avnery, Counterpunch, 9/03/11

      [EXCERPT] . . . The second (“al-Aqsa”) intifada started after the breakdown of the 2000 Camp David conference and Ariel Sharon’s deliberately provocative “visit” to the Temple Mount. The Palestinians held non-violent mass demonstrations. The army responded with selective killings. A sharpshooter accompanied by an officer would take position in the path of the protest, and the officer would point out selected targets – protesters who looked like “ringleaders”. They were killed.

      This was highly effective. Soon the non-violent demonstrations ceased and were replaced by very violent (“terrorist”) actions. With those the army was back on familiar ground. . .

      ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/the-next-intifada/

    • JLewisDickerson
      March 30, 2018, 5:11 pm

      P.P.P.S. FROM WIKIPEDIA [Samson Option, as of 5/25/12]:

      (EXCERPTS) The Samson Option is a term used to describe Israel’s alleged deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a “last resort” against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well.[1] . . .
      . . . Some have written about the “Samson Option” as a retaliation strategy. In 2002, the Los Angeles Times published an opinion piece by Louisiana State University professor David Perlmutter which has been seen as justifying a Samson Option approach.[19] He wrote:

      “Israel has been building nuclear weapons for 30 years. The Jews understand what passive and powerless acceptance of doom has meant for them in the past, and they have ensured against it. Masada was not an example to follow—it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Samson in Gaza? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. . .[20]

      . . . In 2003, Martin van Creveld [professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem – J.L.D.] thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel’s existence.[21] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst’s “The Gun and the Olive Branch” (2003) as saying:

      “We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. . . Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.”[22]

      Ron Rosenbaum writes in his 2012 book How the End Begins: The Road to a Nuclear World War III that in the “aftermath of a second Holocaust” Israel’s surviving Dophin-class nuclear missile submarines would retaliate not only against Israel’s attackers, but “bring down the pillars of the world (attack Moscow and European capitals for instance)” as well as the “holy places of Islam.” He writes that “abandonment of proportionality is the essence” of the Samson Option.[23] . . .

      SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

    • JLewisDickerson
      March 30, 2018, 5:14 pm

      FINALLY SEE: “Operation Samson; Israel’s Deployment of Nuclear Missiles on Subs from Germany”, by Der Speigel, 6/04/12

      [EXCERPTS] The pride of the Israeli navy is rocking gently in the swells of the Mediterranean, with the silhouette of the Carmel mountain range reflected on the water’s surface. To reach the Tekumah, you have to walk across a wooden jetty at the pier in the port of Haifa, and then climb into a tunnel shaft leading to the submarine’s interior. The navy officer in charge of visitors, a brawny man in his 40s with his eyes hidden behind a pair of Ray-Ban sunglasses, bounces down the steps. When he reaches the lower deck, he turns around and says: “Welcome on board the Tekumah. Welcome to my toy.”
      He pushes back a bolt and opens the refrigerator, revealing zucchini, a pallet of yoghurt cups and a two-liter bottle of low-calorie cola. The Tekumah has just returned from a secret mission in the early morning hours.
      The navy officer, whose name the military censorship office wants to keep secret, leads the visitors past a pair of bunks and along a steel frame. The air smells stale, not unlike the air in the living room of an apartment occupied solely by men. At the middle of the ship, the corridor widens and merges into a command center, with work stations grouped around a periscope. The officer stands still and points to a row of monitors, with signs bearing the names of German electronics giant Siemens and Atlas, a Bremen-based electronics company, screwed to the wall next to them.
      The “Combat Information Center,” as the Israelis call the command center, is the heart of the submarine, the place where all information comes together and all the operations are led. The ship is controlled from two leather chairs. It looks as if it could be in the cockpit of a small aircraft. A display lit up in red shows that the vessel’s keel is currently located 7.15 meters (23.45 feet) below sea level.
      “This was all built in Germany, according to Israeli specifications,” the navy officer says,”and so were the weapons systems.” The Tekumah, 57 meters long and 7 meters wide, is a showpiece of precision engineering, painted in blue and made in Germany. To be more precise, it is a piece of precision engineering made in Germany that is suitable for equipping with nuclear weapons.
      • No Room for Doubt
      Deep in their interiors, on decks 2 and 3, the submarines contain a secret that even in Israel is only known to a few insiders: nuclear warheads, small enough to be mounted on a cruise missile, but explosive enough to execute a nuclear strike that would cause devastating results. This secret is considered one of the best kept in modern military history. Anyone who speaks openly about it in Israel runs the risk of being sentenced to a lengthy prison term.
      Research SPIEGEL has conducted in Germany, Israel and the United States, among current and past government ministers, military officials, defense engineers and intelligence agents, no longer leaves any room for doubt: With the help of German maritime technology, Israel has managed to create for itself a floating nuclear weapon arsenal: submarines equipped with nuclear capability. . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/israel-deploys-nuclear-weapons-on-german-built-submarines-a-836784.html

  9. catalan
    March 30, 2018, 4:10 pm

    I think that the leaders of Hamas, having encouraged this, now can go ahead and lead by example. Join the march at the front lines and show that they can walk the walk. Secondly, this is an example of what happens when dumb people get power. Unintelligent people are generally safe when they post on twitter or facebook. Unfortunately, the Gazans are governed by such people and now we see this train wreck and needless tragedy. Finally, the Palestinians simply can accept a state in Gaza on about 90 percent of the West Bank, excluding the major settlements and the Jordan valley. Then they will be able to go on Friday to a visa free shopping trip to Tel Aviv instead of getting themselves shot. It’s so simple.

    • Atlantaiconoclast
      March 30, 2018, 4:48 pm

      It is NOT so simple. The Palestinians are under no obligation to agree to give up any more land. The UN resolutions are clear. Israel has been in constant violation of UN resolutions for years for not allowing the right of return.

      • catalan
        March 30, 2018, 5:02 pm

        “The Palestinians are under no obligation to agree to give up any more land.” Atlanta
        I have never claimed anything about obligations. Since we humans have free will (or the illusion of it), than we are free to do anything, including breaking the law. Indeed many do. I break the law every day by going above the speed limit and so does virtually everyone here. Of course, then the police is free to punish me. I am not talking at all about obligations but rather that the most rational course for the Palestinians is to sign an agreement giving up some of these demands of theirs. But being human, they are going to choose the hard way and will get themselves shot (both figuratively and literally). Probably, in a few decades, things will end up with an agreement with the parameters I mentioned. But what a loss of life. And how ironic that neither the leaders of Hamas no our brave BDS computer warriors are there on the front lines. What you are saying is not logical – being under no obligation is does not mean you have to do something either. I am under no obligation to go to work, but I choose to.

      • JLewisDickerson
        March 30, 2018, 6:31 pm

        RE: “Finally, the Palestinians simply can accept a state in Gaza on about 90 percent of the West Bank, excluding the major settlements and the Jordan valley.”~ catalan

        ■ GRAPHIC

      • Annie Robbins
        March 30, 2018, 6:44 pm

        our resident sadist has dropped by to cheer us up.

        And how ironic that neither the leaders of Hamas no our brave BDS computer warriors are there on the front lines

        how would you know?

      • Shingo
        March 30, 2018, 7:51 pm

        I am not talking at all about obligations but rather that the most rational course for the Palestinians is to sign an agreement giving up some of these demands of theirs.

        But your argument is fundamentally flawed. The Palestinians have already signed such agreements an nothing has come of t. The PLO did not concede any territory to the state of Israel *until* 1993, when their formal recognition of the state of Israel meant a de facto (though not de jure) acknowledgement of Israeli sovereignty of all territory up to (but not beyond) the Green Line. Even before the state of Israel was declared the territorial extent of that state was precisely defined, and that definition can be found in the Partition Plan of 1947.
        Which meant that any territory that was seized *by* the state of Israel between May 1948 and March 1949 was “extra-territorial”, and that means “occupied”.Which meant that all the territory between the Partition Lines and the Green Line was – in the phrase that all zionists will instantly recognize – a “disputed territory”, and it remained that way until 1993.
        You might claim that everyone accepted Israel’s claim to all the territory seized by the Haganah in 1948-49 but that is siply untrue; that universal acceptance did not come until the 1993 Exchange of Letters between the PLO and Israel, which marked the moment when the PLO ended that “dispute” by conceding that “territory” to Israel.
        So what did the Palestinians get in return? Nothing.

      • catalan
        March 30, 2018, 7:55 pm

        “how would you know?” Annie
        I figured the news would mention it of a member of the Hamas government was there. Am I wrong?
        I have to admit, I am mystified by this new strategy of sending unarmed people including kids towards the tanks. I mean, at least suicide bombings are effective – you sacrifice one person but you can kill ten or more of the enemy. This thing seems to be some kind of publicity stunt but very tragic and useless.

      • eljay
        March 30, 2018, 9:38 pm

        || catalan: … I have to admit, I am mystified by this new strategy of sending unarmed people including kids towards the tanks. I mean, at least suicide bombings are effective – you sacrifice one person but you can kill ten or more of the enemy. … ||

        So you’re in favour of non-Jews suicide-bombing Jews. Wow. Zionists are hateful and immoral people at the best of times, but this thread is really bringing out the ugliness in them.

      • Mooser
        March 30, 2018, 9:58 pm

        “our resident sadist”

        Don’t you mean “virtual sadist”? Or “on-line sadist”?

        Cause when you meet “catalan” in person he’s ‘umble. Just a regular heep of humility.

      • eljay
        March 30, 2018, 10:48 pm

        || catalan: … I don’t know much about any particular military tactic. … ||

        Sure you do: You know enough to say ” … at least suicide bombings are effective – you sacrifice one person but you can kill ten or more of the enemy. … “

      • catalan
        March 31, 2018, 1:56 pm

        “I’m just shocked that you are unable to say you don’t favour non-Jews suicide-bombing Jews.”
        I don’t see the world as divided by Jews vs non Jews. So that’s completely irrelevant for me. I don’t feel sadder when a Jew gets killed vs, say a Mexican catholic. As to what tactics the Palestinians choose, it’s just none of my business.

    • Mooser
      March 30, 2018, 5:00 pm

      Ah, the magic “catalan” touch. You may not agree with him, but you just can’t help liking him more each time he opens his mouth.

      • amigo
        March 31, 2018, 3:15 pm

        “I don’t feel sadder when a Jew gets killed vs, say a Mexican catholic.”catalan

        Why not any Mexican.Surely there are Mexicans who are not Catholics.

        Why not a Jew , of Mexican Nationality.Jewish is just a member of a religious group as is Catholic.

        Btw, why do you type Jew with a capital letter and Catholic with a lowercase.They are Both religions.

    • Shingo
      March 30, 2018, 6:27 pm

      Finally, the Palestinians simply can accept a state in Gaza on about 90 percent of the West Bank, excluding the major settlements and the Jordan valley.

      By all means, feel free to post a link which supports the claim that the current Isrsaeli government is agreeable to these terms.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 30, 2018, 6:38 pm

        good to see you around shingo.

    • Misterioso
      March 30, 2018, 10:56 pm

      @catalan

      Nonsense!! Racist and fascistic “we are the chosen” drivel. You and your ilk would have had brilliant careers serving Germany’s Third Reich.

      You also conveniently neglected to note that Israel is still illegally occupying the Gaza Strip:

      Human Rights Watch, 2005: “…Israel will continue to be an Occupying Power [of the Gaza Strip] under international law and bound by the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention because it will retain effective control over the territory and over crucial aspects of civilian life. Israel will not be withdrawing and handing power over to a sovereign authority – indeed, the word ‘withdrawal’ does not appear in the [2005 disengagement] document at all… The IDF will retain control over Gaza’s borders, coastline, and airspace, and will reserve the right to enter Gaza at will. According to the Hague Regulations, ‘A territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised’. International jurisprudence has clarified that the mere repositioning of troops is not sufficient to relieve an occupier of its responsibilities if it retains its overall authority and the ability to reassert direct control at will.”

      The International Committee of the Red Cross: “The whole of Gaza’s civilian population is being punished for acts for which they bear no responsibility. The closure therefore constitutes a collective punishment imposed in clear violation of Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law. The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, ratified by Israel, bans collective punishment of a civilian population.”

      “In practice, Gaza has become a huge, let me be blunt, concentration camp for right now 1,800,000 people” – Amira Hass, 2015 correspondent for Haaretz, speaking at the Forum for Scholars and Publics at Duke University.

      To quote Dov Weisglass, then PM Ariel Sharon’s senior adviser:
      “‘The significance of the [proposed] disengagement plan [implemented in 2005] is the freezing of the peace process,’ Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s senior adviser Dov Weisglass has told Ha’aretz. ‘And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda….’ Weisglass, who was one of the initiators of the disengagement plan, was speaking in an interview with Ha’aretz for the Friday Magazine. ‘The disengagement is actually formaldehyde,’ he said. ‘It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.’” (Top PM Aide: Gaza Plan Aims to Freeze the Peace Process, Ha’aretz, October 6, 2004)

    • Brewer
      March 31, 2018, 3:01 am

      “I think that the leaders of Hamas, having encouraged this, now can go ahead and lead by example. ”

      Following the example set by Netanyahu and the Likud Cabinet??

      Stick your ridiculous double standard where the monkey stuffs his nuts.

    • catalan
      March 31, 2018, 9:34 am

      “Sure you do: You know enough to say ” … at least suicide bombings are effective – you sacrifice one person but you can kill ten or more of the enemy. … “ eljay
      Elhjay,
      I don’t have to be “in favor of” something in order to understand it. I can understand wanting to kill the enemy using – for instance – suicide bombings. I can even see how some things can bring positive publicity. This border business achieves neither. That’s why I think the leaders of Hamas should be at the front lines here. The Israeli cabinet is not sending its people to die; Hamas is. Perhaps the order comes from Tehran and Hamas is basically without a choice in the matter. It doesn’t matter though because for sure BDS will solve the problem.

      • eljay
        March 31, 2018, 12:51 pm

        || catalhan: … Elhjay,
        I don’t have to be “in favor of” something in order to understand it. … ||

        And you don’t have to understand something in order to favour it.

        I find it odd that you seem unable simply to say that you are not in favour of non-Jews suicide-bombing Jews.

      • catalan
        March 31, 2018, 1:24 pm

        “I find it odd that you seem unable simply to say that you are not in favour of non-Jews suicide-bombing Jews”
        Eljay,
        Unlike you I don’t have any desire to tell others what to do. I can relate to anything human and can understand the sentiments of a suicide bomber. Being Jewish or not is irrelevant. If I were a Palestinian I would have perhaps even become a suicide bomber myself. I can understand their feelings of helpless rage.

      • eljay
        March 31, 2018, 1:42 pm

        || catalan: Eljay,
        Unlike you I don’t have any desire to tell others what to do. … ||

        Sure you do: Your Comments archive is full of comments in which you say people should do this or should do that.

        But I’m not telling you to tell people what they should do. I’m just in shock that you are unable to say that you don’t favour non-Jews suicide-bombing Jews.

      • eljay
        March 31, 2018, 2:11 pm

        || catalan @ March 31, 2018, 1:56 pm ||

        Amazing. You are actually incapable of saying you don’t favour non-Jews suicide-bombing Jews.

  10. Jackdaw
    March 30, 2018, 4:36 pm

    Back in 1915, Mexican revolutionaries crossed the Mexican-American border and attacked American border towns with the ‘genuine aspiration’ of retaking New Mexico, Arizona, etc.
    Scores were murdered.

    America fought back.

    Around and around and around the vortex, like so many floaters.
    Round and around.

    • Mooser
      March 30, 2018, 5:04 pm

      “Around and around and around the vortex…”

      “Jackdaw” we know how it is. Israelis tend to be hyper-critical of Israel and Israeli society, so your uncritical embrace of Zionist hype must irritate the hell out of them, and they give you what-for, and things go downhill from there.
      It’s much better at Mondo, and nobody corrects your Hebrew, either.

    • John O
      March 30, 2018, 5:38 pm

      @Pheasant

      Scores of whom were murdered? Inhabitants of towns in the US, or Mexican revolutionaries?

    • eljay
      March 30, 2018, 6:32 pm

      || Jackdaw: … Around and around and around the vortex, like so many floaters.
      Round and around. ||

      Yes, you certainly do.

      • Mooser
        March 30, 2018, 10:02 pm

        “Yes, you certainly do.”

        Give the roseh avis a break. If he got banned here he would have to talk to the Israelis around him, and that hasn’t worked out well so far.

      • eljay
        March 30, 2018, 10:10 pm

        || Mooser: … Give the roseh avis a break. If he got banned here he would have to talk to the Israelis around him, and that hasn’t worked out well so far. ||

        Maybe he should talk to hophmi – surely a Zionist who does Muslim outreach would have some sure-fire tips for reaching out to Jewish-Israeli Zionists.

      • Jackdaw
        March 31, 2018, 8:30 am

        @mooser

        I just celebrated Passover in Israel with two dozen of my Israeli relatives and friends.

        Mooser. Did you and you Moldovan mail order bride celebrate Passover?

      • Mooser
        March 31, 2018, 12:06 pm

        ” Mooser, did you and you Moldovan mail order bride…”

        Please address me as “Mr. President”, if you please.

    • Misterioso
      March 30, 2018, 11:00 pm

      @Jackdaw

      More smug, utterly irrelevant Zionist supremacist bullsh*t. What happened in 1915 along the Mexico- American border bears no resemblance to what happened today in Gaza.

      • Jackdaw
        March 31, 2018, 9:44 am

        The Mexicans wanted their land back and they tried to seize it. America defended her borders.

        An apt comparison, IMHO.

      • John O
        March 31, 2018, 10:24 am

        @Pheasant “The Mexicans wanted their land back”

        At least your analogy accepts that it’s the Palestinians’ land.

      • Misterioso
        March 31, 2018, 11:45 am

        @Jackdaw

        “The Mexicans wanted their land back and they tried to seize it. America defended her borders. An apt comparison, IMHO.”

        More bullcrap. Unlike the entity known as “Israel,” the Americans were not imprisoning Mexicans in the world’s largest outdoor prison, imposing a blockade against them, establishing “no go” zones within Mexico, bombing and slaughtering them regularly, denying them the basics of life, etc.

    • johneill
      March 31, 2018, 1:58 am

      citing american history to defend present-day israeli actions is telling; almost an admission that israeli policies are driven by genocidal racism, as is american history. looks like the zionist-indoctrination-hasbara-kit didn’t cover that. or, mr. daw is so infatuated with violence he spends most days distinguishing the good from the bad.

    • Brewer
      March 31, 2018, 3:11 am

      “Back in 1915, Mexican revolutionaries crossed the Mexican-American border”
      Arguments by analogy are not only lame they are fallacious.
      Jackdaw’s comment confirms one suspicion that has been growing in me for some time: Zionist ideology is at least a century out of date.

  11. Ossinev
    March 30, 2018, 5:01 pm

    @Mikhael

    “It’s a quasi-state entity that is de jure and de facto in a state of war with Israel”

    WTF is a “quasi – state entity”. Please define because it sounds as if you are taking the Mickey.

    On the other hand “De jure”. Way to go. It`s so reassuring to know that you believe that Gaza has the legal right to be at war with Israel.

    “The terror gang known as Hamas”. Now that one did ring a few bells. I`m thinking Stern Terror Gang,Haganah Terror Gang and Irgun Terror Gang.

    ” Area A of the West Bank, which is entirely under the security jurisdiction of the Fatah-led portion of the PA”

    Confess to being a bit confused on this one blossom. If it is “entirely under Palestinian security force “jurisdiction” why then was the PA policeman Auda who shot Livnat tried in an Israeli Army Military Court. Please do explain.

    “but I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened”

    Is your “in principle” the same as your “de jure and de facto ” . Will be fascinated to know.

    • RoHa
      March 30, 2018, 10:43 pm

      “Blossom?”

      You live in the North?

    • Mikhael
      April 16, 2018, 7:00 pm

      Ossinev March 30, 2018, 5:01 pm
      @Mikhael

      “It’s a quasi-state entity that is de jure and de facto in a state of war with Israel”

      WTF is a “quasi – state entity”. Please define because it sounds as if you are taking the Mickey.

      “Quasi” means having some, but not all of the features of. A “state” is a political or territorial unit that in the context of this discussion refers to a unified and sovereign country. An “entity” is a thing that exists. Thus, a “quasi-state entity” is a thing that exists that has some, but not all, of the attributes of an independent and sovereign state. You should try to work this out yourself the next time.

      On the other hand “De jure”. Way to go. It`s so reassuring to know that you believe that Gaza has the legal right to be at war with Israel

      Israel has a legal right to be at war with the terror gang regime that controls Gaza.

      “The terror gang known as Hamas”. Now that one did ring a few bells. I`m thinking Stern Terror Gang,Haganah Terror Gang and Irgun Terror Gang.

      Do you mean LeHI and ESeL? The groups you mentioned never existed by those names. (Irgun simply means organization). LeHI and ESeL were Palestinian-Jewish paramilitary groups that used unconventional tactics against the British armed forces and police as well as Palestinian-Arab paramilitary groups. They were disbanded and have ceased to exist for 70+ years. Unlike the Hamas terror gang regime that controls Gaza, LeHI and ESeL never governed any territory.

      ” Area A of the West Bank, which is entirely under the security jurisdiction of the Fatah-led portion of the PA”

      Confess to being a bit confused on this one blossom. If it is “entirely under Palestinian security force “jurisdiction” why then was the PA policeman Auda who shot Livnat tried in an Israeli Army Military Court. Please do explain.

      PA Police Officer Naef Fahd Bani Audeh was arrested and served a sentence in a PA prison and was subsequently released. He was later apprehended by Israel’s General Security Services after there was a warrant for his arrest in Israel. It’s not clear whether he was arrested in Area A, B or C. But Israel justifiably reserves the right to arrest terror and murder suspects if they aren’t extraditable without asking permission. Israel didn’t ask for Argentina’s permission before arresting Eichmann on Argentinian soil, after all. Nevertheless, Bani Audeh was acquitted by an Israeli court of intentional homicide and only convicted of reckless endangerment and disruption of court proceedings, and then he was subsequently released after receiving a sentence of time served.

      “but I agree in principle that PA police have a right to shoot a Jewish civilian who ignores a lawful order to halt if they justifiably feel their lives are threatened”

      Is your “in principle” the same as your “de jure and de facto ” . Will be fascinated to know.

      These are simple words that people of basic intelligence should be able to understand. My principle is that a PA policeman who can demonstrate that an Israeli civilian not only unlawfully disregarded an order to halt and entered PA-controlled territory without proper security clearance between the PA and the IDF (which is the protocol for Jewish worshipers who want to go to Joseph’s Tomb in Shekhem, a protocol which Mr Livnat disregarded), but who can demonstrate a reasonable fear for his own safety, has the same right to defend himself using lethal force as IDF does. I wasn’t a witness to what actually transpired and therefore I can’t determine if Bani Audeh and the other PA police actually had a legitimate fear for their own safety, but we know that the PA policemen’s narratives about the incident changed many times. The accused were ultimately acquitted even by an Israeli court because the prosecution couldn’t establish that they intended to kill Ben Yosef Livnat.

  12. ritzl
    March 30, 2018, 8:06 pm

    Applying Syria intervention logic to this situation, invoking the “shooting unarmed civilians” rule, the clamor for regime change in Israel would be deafening, the CIA would already be sending ATGMs and MANPADS to Hamas, and Nikki Haley would be jumping up and down on her UN desk, pulling her hair out in clumps, declaring an imminent US attack on the perps.

    The NYT would have been at the forefront of that clamor. No baseless accusation too ludicrous to enhance.

    I guess that, to me, there is hiding and obfuscation in play here, but it feels like there’s more to it than that. Something more like incorruptible UNTRUTH about everything, guiding everything they do.

    IDK. FWIW

    • Maghlawatan
      March 30, 2018, 8:42 pm

      Giving Israel a free pass just encourages its psychotic behaviour. The NYT doesnt care about Israel. If it did it would hold it to a higher standard.

      Israel is supposed to be a normal country but it’s drinking 2 bottles of bourbon per day and taking Fentanyl on the side.
      The NYT thinks it will be OK in the summer. It won’t. It’s drinking itself to death, assuming the Fentanyl doesn’t get there first .

  13. just
    March 30, 2018, 8:09 pm

    Looks like Haaretz is kinda following in the NYT footsteps here:

    “15 Palestinians killed, dozens wounded as thousands gather on Gaza-Israel border for ‘March of Return’ …

    (then the truth):

    According to the Palestinian Health Ministry, 1,416 people were wounded: 758 from live fire, 148 from rubber-tipped bullets, 422 from inhaling tear gas and 88 from other causes. Palestinian officials said that one was killed and 237 wounded in Rafah; four were killed and 345 wounded in southern Gaza; five were killed and 286 wounded in northern Gaza; two were killed and 197 wounded in central Gaza; and three were killed and 351 wounded in Khan Yunis. …”

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-five-palestinians-reportedly-killed-by-israeli-army-as-thousands-rally-for-mass-gaza-protests-1.5962159

    I expect much better from them… hope it was an honest mistake. “Dozens”, huh?

    • eljay
      March 30, 2018, 9:28 pm

      I was surprised that the evening news (Ontario, Canada) had a minute-long piece on the murderous assault on Gaza protesters free of the usual pro-Israel slant. It was a small ray of just and moral sunshine in a dark sky of hateful and immoral Zionism.

  14. jsinton
    March 30, 2018, 8:20 pm

    Yes, I saw a version of this story on the NYTs. What struck me is there was no mention of casualties other than those resulting in death. Then I realized that at lease NYTs reported the story, even if it was slanted. Most of the faux progressive MSM avoids Palestine like the plague these days, and that I think is the real story. Orwell was smart but he never imagined all the creative ways they’ve developed over the years to manage perceptions, to ignore problems, push agendas. What is a palestine?

  15. Kathleen
    March 31, 2018, 12:23 am

    BLOODY FRIDAY
    Not one peep out of Kornacki in for Chris Matthews on Hardball about Bloody Friday Not a peep out of Chris Hayes, Maddow had the Richard Engel special on but we can be 100% assured based on Maddow’s record there would not have been a peep out of her. Not a peep out of Lawrence O’Donnell or Brian Williams about Bloody Friday for the Palestinians because Israeli soldiers shot and killed 15 and injured 1000. Can you imagine this happening in any other country on the globe and these bought and paid for cable host ignoring this slaughter. People want to push back on the idea that Comcast are bigots and complete supporters of what every Israel does. Once again this fact is proven.

    These MSNBC host are bought and paid for. What a bunch of yellow bellied and shameful cowards

  16. Sibiriak
    March 31, 2018, 1:15 am

    B’Tselem “warned in a statement that any shoot-to-kill policy against unarmed demonstrators would be unlawful. . .”
    ———————————————

    Unlawful.” Such a feeble term of condemnation. Devoid of all gravity and emotional charge. Hell, a parking violation is unlawful. Of course, if a Palestinian kills innocent civilians, it’s “terrorism“! “Terrorism!” Just a step below genocide on the scale of human evil.

  17. Boomer
    March 31, 2018, 7:21 am

    What you say about NYT is true, but it isn’t just NYT. Corporate MSM in the US is predictably weak on this. NBC evening news didn’t even mention it Friday night (unless I blinked during a some subliminal message about it). CBS evening news did at least mention it on Friday. The News Hour actually had a Skype interview with a reporter in Gaza. Of course, the viewership for the News Hour is small, especially on Passover/Good Friday.

  18. Sulphurdunn
    March 31, 2018, 10:35 am

    The Times article mentions artillery fire that killed a farmer earlier in the day and a tank firing at a couple of “suspicious” people. Why would Israel need to fire artillery at a farmer in Gaza or to direct tank fire at a people on the basis of suspicion?

    The article notes fifteen peopled killed and a thousand wounded. Can that figure be correct?

    It also mentions people setting explosives and cutting through the border fence armed with knives and grenades who proceeded to destroy Israeli military equipment to test IDF preparedness. Men armed with only knives and grenades? Destroying unmanned military equipment, apparently just sitting around? It sounds preposterous.

  19. Maghlawatan
    March 31, 2018, 12:35 pm

    50 years of no rights and Jews shooting to.kill . What is the point of having a Jewish State ?

    • Mooser
      March 31, 2018, 12:53 pm

      “What is the point of having a Jewish State ?”

      Look, “Mag”, these days Jewish people can live securely, make a living, even rise to professional or political consequence, almost anywhere.
      But nowhere else but Israel can Jews experience a super-Jewish lifestyle, a pure and immersive experience of Judaism that replicates the Biblical experience. What if the earth is dry and barren, what if the morning sun is mean to us? For this is a state of mind we live in: We want it green and so it’s green to us! For when you have wonderful plans for tomorrow, somehow even today looks fine.

  20. Maghlawatan
    March 31, 2018, 12:41 pm

    This murderousness is why people like Corbyn have had enough. There is no point expecting the junkie to detox. Israel is addicted to the Fentanyl of murder.

  21. Ossinev
    March 31, 2018, 2:01 pm

    A part of me thinks that with all this Zio slaughter happening in Gaza , and the MSM having little choice in having to report it, albeit in the usual one sided Hamas to blame fashion, the feral attacks on JC and the Labour Party might be watered down or perhaps even put to one side until another little tortuously linked “Anti – Semitism” allegation floats to the surface in their particular toilet bowl.
    But then again I am reminded that the Israel Firsters in the UK have been in full manic attack dog mode in the last few weeks and as with attack dogs when they have their jaws firmly gripped on flesh restraint will be a problem.

    Arkush,Collier and co will no doubt be seriously pissed off with those nasty Untermenschen native Palestinians getting themselves killed and seriously injured and deflecting attention at a time when the only real victims in the history of human victimhood are fighting such a brave battle against the overwhelming all embracing endemic ahem “pockets” of alleged anti – Judaism in the UK Labour Party.

    Then again I suppose that they could ease the pain by booking all inclusive trips out to Zioland which include all meals provided front row seats overlooking Gaza just to experience the thrill of real life on location feral Zionism.

  22. Nathan
    April 1, 2018, 8:26 pm

    Let’s assume that the complaint of biased coverage in the NY Times is well-founded. So what? What is wrong with one-sided coverage. I read the Mondoweiss website regularly, and it’s so obvious that its coverage is extremely one-sided. Why would an article in Mondoweiss gripe about the one-sidedness of another publication? Is it really so difficult for an adult to understand that someone else sees the world differently?

  23. CHUCKMAN
    April 2, 2018, 2:48 pm

    Well, this shouldn’t come as a surprise to any critically-minded NYT reader.

    I used to read the Times years ago, but grew quite tired of their many little biases and tricks in reportage.

    Anyway, not the long ago the Times confirmed a rumor which had been around a long time.

    For all stories concerned with Israel, the story is passed by the official Israeli censor before publication.

    It just doesn’t get more unprofessional than that from a journalism perspective.

    Readers may enjoy this on the topic:

    https://chuckmanwordsincomments.wordpress.com/2017/04/14/john-chuckman-comment-all-thats-fit-to-print-about-the-good-ship-new-york-times-and-its-grotesque-bow-figurehead-thomas-friedman-note-on-pulitzer-prizes/

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