Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 25580 (since 2009-07-30 20:11:08)

Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

Showing comments 25580 - 25501

  • Roth was fired because DC Jewish leaders demand 'acquiescence' to Israeli positions -- Kushner
    • allegedly NK was instrumental for shutting it down but they deny that. i think it's much more likely that sony shut it down themselves because they were told the next batch of releases were much more damaging and they couldn't contain the fallout. hence, it was blamed on alleged threats to movie theatres who showed the film and sony was so concerned they pulled it. but that allegation came after they hired a top dc pr person. i just don't buy it.

      their biggest problem was ending the leaks. so, they pulled the film.

  • Shmuley Boteach taunts Palestinian solidarity demonstrators in NY
    • hmm, i disagree dakr. i think what's likely is that shmuley showed up with the intention of creating material for writing a hit piece against the activists and the bds movement. he probably already had his headline planned out, a fear mongering 'boycotting jewish businesses' type smear. the activists were out there the week before and i don't think he just happened to walk by.

      then, what seems clear from the video is the activists just kept right on chanting and singing however he claimed they responded w/ FU! he also lied about his quote. he also claimed the protest was against "ordinary jews".

      and there is something nasty about making claims against the adalah protestors of which no evidence exists.

  • 'Clock is ticking' till next round of Gaza escalation, and war
    • this is from the link: "Gazans who file for compensation against Israel will not be allowed into Israel to testify "

      Supreme Court of Israel rejected a petition .. against Israel’s policy of preventing residents of Gaza ... from entering Israel to attend their own court hearings … Although the Court rejected the petition, in the judgment pointed out the conflict of interests created by this policy between the state’s position as the defendant before the court and as the authority that determines who can and who cannot enter Israel to access the court. Justice Elyakim Rubinstein stated in the decision that the state simultaneously wears two hats, as the party “responsible for security on the one hand, and as the defendant on the other,” and that “it must take care as far as possible not to confuse the two issues.” … the court did not address the grave violation of the constitutional rights of the complainants and of their rights to compensation for damages incurred by them resulting from the state’s policy of closure. link to

      what does that mean? “it must take care as far as possible not to confuse the two issues.”?

  • What's he texting in the bomb crater?
    • LOL..another great caption! see ya later jack

    • do you feel sad jack? what can i say, try another thread and go cheer up! or try a different political activism blog.

    • ??? they must have separate teams for staging digging wouldn't you think?

    • i like those bright red shoelaces in the top left corner. they've obviously cleared the area of civilians.

    • jackdraw, we've had photo naming contests before and they are just for fun. my favorite was one mocking netanyau at the UN (holding up some graphic like the ticking time bomb) and people really did send ideas and placed ideas in the comment section, i think we chose a winner (as i recall), had nothing to do w/fundraising. so there well may be a followup post on this if it generates enough interest.

      it's just for fun. i liked your suggestion, you may win! we can name you and write a post about it ;) lol.

    • IDF is digging holes in the middle of the night and faking mortar attacks on kibbutzim

      ok jack! thanks for making an entry into the caption contest!

  • NY Times says a Palestinian majority would 'endanger Israel's democratic ideals'
    • boomer, the nyt is making a lot of assumptions but there is a key to their "logic" in the framing. let's parse it out:

      The United States, trying to protect Israel’s interest, wants at the very least to delay a Security Council vote until after the Israeli election. That makes sense, since a showdown now almost certainly will benefit the opponents of a two-state solution. The campaign — in which a coalition formed by Isaac Herzog, head of the opposition Labor party, and Tzipi Livni, the recently dismissed justice minister, favors a two-state solution — is likely to focus on domestic issues. But the outcome could well determine the prospects for the elusive dream of a Palestinian state.

      there is this assumption/theory, taken for granted by the nyt, that a 'showdown' between the UN and Israel would benefit netanyahu or bennett parties on the right and threaten the 'moderate' labor party politicians. and this assumption is carefully framed and a given, a throw away in the framing ("almost certainly will benefit the opponents of a two-state solution.") as if everyone who's anyone knows this already.

      to give you an idea of where this "theory" comes from or who backs this 'logic' (which imho is more like an excuse because the transitional member states at the security council are set to change in january AND and any kind of 2 year deadline made after this year will not come to fruition until after obama's term is up, so there are many reasons why pushing this down the road is helpful for israel), see this article and note the source of the quotes, elliot abrams and some guy from Center for a New American Security link to

      Israel Election 2015: Netanyahu Leverages European Censure For Domestic Political Support

      link to

      A Hamas Takeover?

      A looming United Nations Security Council resolution that seeks to set a two-year deadline to reach an agreement on the issue of Palestinian statehood could also influence Israel's election. Netanyahu warned on Thursday that if the resolution was passed it could lead to “a Hamas takeover” of the West Bank, according to Haaretz.

      Depending on whether the draft is approved by the council and what the final version of the resolution looks like, Netanyahu could have a powerful electoral weapon against his left-wing rivals, said Ilan Goldenberg, the director of the Middle East security program at the Center for a New American Security in Washington, D.C. “That is a significant major step, and if it does happen, it gives [Netanyahu] an opportunity to rally his base and reach across the center and grab some of those [parliament] seats,” he said.

      Netanyahu’s biggest threat in the upcoming March elections is a center-left coalition party led by Labor Party Chairman Isaac Herzog and Hatnuah Party Chairwoman Tzipi Livni, who have made surprising gains in popularity and are currently neck and neck with Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, according to the Channel 2 poll.

      Netanyahu’s Likud Party would need to win 61 seats in Israel’s Knesset in order to stay in power in March. Herzog’s Labor coalition has made a powerful play to attract more support from the center, and this effort could actually be successful unless the Europeans push Israel too hard, according to Goldenberg. “The left has its own narrative that is credible as long as the Europeans don't overstep and do things that are universally unpopular and seen as damaging in Israel,” he said.

      The political challenge from the left means that Netanyahu will be eager to emphasize the various international threats Israel faces. “He wants to argue that there is only one alternative for PM right now,” said Abrams. “He wants to argue Herzog is weak, so pointing to the threats Israel faces, whether diplomatic and economic threats from Europe or military threats from Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran, is probably a good strategy.”

      my personal opinion is that these are designed talking pts meant to get out in front of news. note the framing that Labor (the good guys!) "could actually be successful unless the Europeans push Israel too hard".

      so there's an element of fantasy here that labor would be better for a 2 state solution and if europe pushes israel will go further right. hello, this just pushes everything down the road. we need to get the US out of this so called negotiation project. and israelis are not stupid. if there is a looming threat of international sanctions i'm sure they can figure out on their own that the farther to the right they vote the more they clash w/the international community. the implication here is that if labor wins the security council won't need to pressure israel to the same degree because the parties in power will be for a palestinian state, or something. the implication here is "if you push israel now you may be tanking the only chance for peace!! ahhh!!!".

      it's stupid. the nyt says "the outcome [of the election] could well determine the prospects for the elusive dream of a Palestinian state"

      that is simply untrue. the only thing that can move israel is BDS, outside pressure from the global community and continued palestinian sumud.

  • On eve of University of California honor, Bill Maher defends anti-Muslim hate speech in Vanity Fair interview
    • as i stated previously, my criticisms were just starting there loquela. i was warming up. whereas you might have a point if the question asked of him did not compare "Jewish prison camps and genocide", but since they did not, you don't have a point. maybe you should re read the question ask of him again before pontificating.

      again, do you have a source for either of the times you used the term "the fact" or is that just a rhetorical device you use for effect, like the rest of your "point".

    • there are so many articles about this stuff but it generally stays in regional news or the jewish news like link to . it's a scandal tho. it's a constant drip drip drip.

      bottom line, i don't think ny politicians can stay in office or judges on the bench unless they toe the line. or police commissioners either. it's rigged and it's not treated like the catholic church scandal that's for sure.

      The Brooklyn ultra-Orthodox community has been plagued with sexual molestation charges in recent years, many of them stemming back decades. It has a history of harboring and protecting alleged molesters while shaming and intimidating those who attempt to come forward with allegations of abuse.

      link to

      but does it hit the national news? no.

    • there are many flaws in your logic loq, and your framing leaves you open for people easily poking holes in your narrative. but i would just like to start here: when you say "based on the fact that there are 5,000 militant muslim groups" what informs you of this alleged "fact"? it doesn't sound like you're saying it's a fact maher made this claim but you're claiming it as a fact yourself. and even if there were '5000 muslim militant groups' are you implying, or defending the idea that a muslim group that is militant is inherently immoral? or that a religious militant group is inherently immoral. or that a militant group is inherently immoral?

      you already stated "Mayer, and others like him, are not against muslims as people" so, am i to assume it's not the muslim part of being a militant you object to? so if it's not the muslim part you just object to militants in general? and what of jewish militant groups? no prob w/them? or are you claiming all those alleged 5,000 muslims groups are the same. could you direct me to a site with a list of them, all 5,000 please.

      and when you say There is a study of treatment of women around the world which found that the muslims were at the bottom of it

      could you source whose study that is please.

      and when you say Again, he was simply justifying his comments based on the facts , don't you mean his allegations or his interpretation of events?

    • he also ignores the whole drama surrounding pedophilia in segments of the jewish orthodox community (in ny in particular)and the strange rules that prevent or radically discourage victims from reporting it to police and instead rely on rabbis who frequently cover up abuse which has run rampant.

      and what of some women being ordered to shave their heads and keep them shaved. he doesn't have much to say about that. he pretty much just leaves this kind of stuff alone when it comes from the jewish community, so does the msm.

    • lol, i can't stop laughing today.

    • norm, please review the comment policy (#1). you can get banned for hate speech here.

    • I think to most people replacing Zionists by Jihadist would make this statement more sensible

      Well, that`s very subjective.

    • thank you Jahan-Zaib H. Gilani

  • Ads Against Apartheid hits LA with Mandela campaign
    • i agree harry!

    • thank you sawah, that's very sweet of you ~ one of the reasons this campaign is so special is because ads against apartheid crowd-funded to put it up and reached their goal because of so many people who donated. so to have such a massive campaign (and there were many more photos we didn't publish them all) is just breathtaking. big kudos all around on this one.

  • Ari Roth is fired by DC Jewish center -- after staging Nakba play
    • Would you also defend French comedian Dieudonne from being sacked for staging a Holocaust satire? Excuse me if I have my doubts.

      what's with all the whataboutery oyvey? are you trying to make an analogous argument between staging a nakba play vs a holocaust satire?

    • mayhem, israel has a history of jailing and killing palestinian journos and photojournos so i am wondering why you ignored that? did you read Israel Arrests 8 Palestinians For Facebook Posts? link to link to

      Eight Palestinian citizens of Israel were arrested Monday on charges of inciting anti-Jewish violence through their online postings, in a move by the Jewish State to criminalize all dissent.

      A police spokesman said the residents of occupied east Jerusalem were charged with “inciting hatred, violence and terrorism” against Jews and Israeli security forces, by posting criticisms on Facebook.
      In November, Mahmoud Asila was arrested for posting a picture on Facebook that claimed he was in support of the attacks carried out by the Palestinians against the Israeli forces occurring in the West Bank. The problem for Israel, is that as the West Bank is illegally occupied, the Fourth Geneva Convention asserts the same right of the Palestinian citizens to armed resistance against occupying forces. Israel is therefore not only in breach of International Law by illegally occupying the land of the West Bank, but is now jailing those who express views in accordance with International Law.

      Should Jews be permitted to put on theatre that extols the efforts of the Nazis in exterminating Jews? Where’s the limit?

      i'm curious why you are choosing to come up with this hypothetical scenario? this is the US, not israel and not a place under military occupation. and rather than your fabricated example, the counter scenario of a play about the history of the nakba, even fictionalized, would be (a play about the history of the holocaust, and) the opposite of your fabrication. it would be "Should Jews be permitted to put on theatre that exposes the efforts of the Nazis in exterminating Jews?" for clearly no one is extolling the efforts to slaughter and ethnically cleanse palestinians in this play. are you advocating american theatre should stay away from history of the nakba (or the holocaust) because it offends some? would you say the same thing about a play about wounded knee?

      we shouldn't be using the israeli governments standards for free speech or artistic freedom.

    • that statement makes no logical sense whatsoever

      sure it does. the arts, as well as many other things, are funded by the state in israel and also promoted by the foreign ministry as outreach and other things. therefore, when the state of israel is funding a ballet company on a world tour, those artists are not working as independent actors, the are supporting the state of israel. whereas, if a person such as myself (i am an artists) gets a show in a foreign country, gets my work in a gallery in london for example, and travels there for the opening and makes arrangements to get my work there and the US government doesn't fund my expenses (like most artists in the US we are not funded by the state) then i am an independent artists. and if an israeli artists did the same thing, not thru the state or a state institution (like tel aviv university which is heavily complicit in the occupation) they would not be targetted by the bds campaign. it's really not that complicated. in fact, phil just interviewed an israeli filmaker last week (or the week before) and linked to his crowdfunding campaign to finish his film. he is working independently from the state institution as are many israelis who are participating in the film.

      n.o.t. t.h.a.t. c.o.m.p.l.i.c.a.t.e.d.

    • wagering quite a bit anonymously over the internet has no meaning.

    • yeah, they also have the big tent campus campaign. what a farce, they call it big, they call it broad, but they real meaning is constriction.

    • And I’m still trying to figure out why it’s always a tent.

      because the think tank hired by the israeli gov calls it a tent

      Policy Paper: Reut’s Broad Tent and Red-Lines Approach

      link to

    • BDS supports boycotting Israeli artists

      ha! we could say it a thousand times and you hear what you want to hear. individual artists are not boycotted.

    • mooser, from your link, my bold:

      In Haaretz last week, Harris-Gershon writes about the damage that the JCC is doing to the Jewish community:

      If someone like me should be placed outside the Jewish communal tent, consider the hundreds of thousands – if not millions – of liberal or progressive Jews who would similarly be exiled, since they too would be standing “outside the bounds of legitimate discourse.”

      - See more at: link to

      the reference to the tent reminds of of the reut tent, where they draw the red lines of discourse and set the rules. and then from the top down they enforce the rules. but there are very few people at the top making those decisions. all they need is bulldogs at the head of these orgs to act as the enforcers. and Zawatsky is the enforcer at jcc-dc. and they will get a new manager who will follow the directions or else he/she will get the hatchet!

  • JVP offers bold universalist Hanukkah message in the wake of Gaza slaughter
    • i hope we make it thru the holiday season without another massive assault oldgeezer.

      the first time i saw the video i just cried. then i watched it over and over. i love jvp, they totally rock. and i love the soundtrack. here's another smile just for you ;)

    • jon: “Where have I ever condoned mass murder? Your comment is a blood libel."

      hops: "If the shoe fits… Sorry the truth hurts so much.”

      yeah jon, if the shoe fits… even hops agrees with us.


    • exactly mooser. it's the herding of the cats. so many wild ones unanticipated coming out of the closets and alleyways, nooks and crannies and mountain roads.

    • jon, follow the embed from here:

      This piece touches on Nathan Thrall’s piece in the London Review of Books exploding Ari Shavit’s American celebration. Shavit was widely embraced by leading editors, liberal Zionist rabbis and the Jewish establishment as somehow revivifying Zionism. But Thrall shows that from defending the Gaza slaughter to opposing a withdrawal from the occupied territories, there is nothing liberal about his attitudes.

      - See more at: link to

      also, i thought i would point out in your haaretz article shavit's primarily addresses and complains about the "zealots" and the "the extreme right". then he makes a reference to "The nationalist bloc is still large, and the danger that a government of the right, the right and the right will be established is still real."

      the "middle" in israel is still right wing, it's not what we traditionally think of as left. not when 95% support and defend the gaza slaughter.

    • Hannukah is the last candidate for an “affirmation of universalism”.

      soooo, i guess you're not interested in JVP offering a bold universalist hanukkah message.

  • Obama hired Clinton as sec'y of state by reaching out to Israel supporter Hoenlein -- NYT
    • smart peter

    • yeah, there's this hankering of jewish establishment types to claim that establishment types speak for all jews as if jews all run in a pack. so much bs. and they all elected netanyahu as their king! another example of this is this story link to , a small group of influential loudmouths and the JCC, run by a few power hungry types takes down a beloved successful threatre manager. and because their name has 'the jewish community' in it people think they represent the jewish community on everything, they do not.

    • tuyz, mysteriously for some reason sometimes some of the links are very hard to see. i went up and checked and i couldn't see the link either but i knew i had linked to it yesterday! so i went to add it and when i saw the embed on the draftpage i bolded the front of it so it would show up. it is embedded into the second sentence "a big piece in the New York Times this Sunday,". i just bolded "a big piece". but thatnk you for linking and pointing that out.

    • i don't think there is big data on this cigargod unless it is the big data we are supposed to infer from their title. as cecilie surasky pointed out in her great article

      The Jewish community here in the Bay Area is stunningly rich and diverse. We disagree about politics, we disagree about God, and we disagree most passionately of all about Israel.

      You could say our difference and diversity is our very essence. Which is why we don’t and will never have one spokesperson for the Jews of the Bay Area.

      Suffice it to say, our members, and we have thousands of people on our mailing list just in the Bay Area, were shocked to see a statement from the Jewish Community Relations Council, and the local offices of the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee, announcing that the “Bay Area Jewish Community” condemned these ads because they used the phrase Israeli apartheid.

      None of these organizations have the right to claim to represent the Jews of the Bay Area. In fact, the Jewish Community Relations Council will not publicly release its list of members, we can only assume, because the number of groups they can claim to represent is so small. We know that none of the most vibrant and fastest growing progressive Jewish groups in the Bay Area are part of the JCRC. Neither are many synagogues we know.

      - See more at: link to

    • Democrats who are Jewish will turn out in droves in support of he.....Without a doubt.”...But Clinton knows that there is a wealthy and influential sliver of more-moderate Democratic Jews for whom Israel is a priority.

      money money money money. but what about the other voters. jewish voters make up a tiny portion of the electorate. what if american voters don't want another president beholden to israel?

      somethings gotta break at some point. it doesn't all come down to what conservative or liberal jews think. the jewish group closest to the leftwing of american electorate is jvp. and the left wing of the dem party is the grassroots, the ones who pound the pavement. i don't know if they'll come out in droves for hillary like they did for obama in the final showdown if she makes the primaries. there's that to think about. and i will just stay home unless paul makes it to the finals, or some other candidate who doesn't bend over backwards for israel.

  • Obama took on the Cuba lobby-- when will he take on the Israel lobby?
  • SodaStream rejected, at Harvard (and in Brooklyn)
    • saying drinking water from a soda machine produced on land stolen from your family doesn't constitute an aggression towards your family is absurd.

      you might as well be drinking your family's blood. not to mention watching everyone else drinking it too.

    • I wonder if that’s because ...

      it's probably because he probably doesn't want a bunch of misguided zionist fanatics who demonize those who disagree with them, calling him up and dictating to him, if they have not already. he's towing the line for sure so he won't loose his job. (you can read about these types here: link to )

  • Palestinian UN effort seeks to set 'terms of reference' for negotiations and promote shift away from US leadership
    • i think it is because they are three members of the security council and they are trying to put together a version no one will veto. and i agree this sounds awfully water down. but one of the salient points (i suppose) is that it asked for an immediate settlement freeze and if it is not vetoed by the security council as soon as israel builds one more thing in the region designated in the resolution (assuming there is a designated region) israel will be in violation of the security council. or something. and as you may recall the last time the US vetoed the settlement resolution, so if they do not this time then it paves the way, possibly, legally, for parties to sanction israel. or something.

      so, they way i see it this particular move re this resolution is that it is affiliated with and acting simultaneously with the geneva stuff (which is why i merged them in my un/kerry/palestine article the other day) and the result of the combination of the 2 sets up a situation in which outside actors can legal take retribution against israel for violating a whole slew of things if they do not behave. i see it as european countries having legal cover for what they may do and what they keep threatening to do (sanctions).

  • Israel will lose all American Jews but the crazies
    • seriously bc, it's beyond me - i couldn't make this stuff up. i don't even think colbert or stewart or letterman could say it any better:

      in the cold night when you’re tucked in bed, those men and dogs protect you

      it reads like a bedtime story, perfect for a late night / SNL.

    • I would point out that the big 3bill in loan guarantees for military are a huge source of income generators for the US military contractors that would not take losing out very lightly. The last I checked the owners of the big US military/Indust corps are not so many Jews. (your implication that only rich Jewish and Zionist billionaires would keep Israel afloat-especially when the 3bill only reps a tiny % of gdp (and I for one favour ending a large proportion of US military loan guarantees.) - See more at: link to

      oh wow. that's just what this country needs, dumping more money into military contractors. let me give you a little info that may not ever had occurred to you. those workers for the military contractors? the grunts and their bosses to? maybe they'd like to take a vacation? y'know, it's our money and we could just hand it over to them without having them have to do anything at all. if we want to give anyone 3 billion, what's the advantage to us to funneling it thru israel?

      i mean seriously. if i have $100 and i say to you..i will give it to you if you spend it hiring my son. so the son works for the day and you give him the $100. and then you run an ad in the paper and say wow, i generated all this money for your family!! how much brains does it take to figure out i could just give the friggin money to my son and let him take the day off? especially given the fact that the way i got the money in the first place is because my son worked for it?

      you get what i am saying? this is our tax dollars, we work for it. and we give it to big daddy feds and they give it to you and you hire the same friggin people who worked for it to begin with.

      so frankly, wrt the US military contractors that would not take losing out very lightly. , they wouldn't be losing a GD thing if the feds just gave them the money instead of giving it to you.

      do you think we're stupid?

      and wrt to my so called "implication" according to you wrt "Jewish and Zionist billionaires" . there's a hella lot more money being shoveled to israel out of this country besides that 3 bill. that 3 bill is from our taxes, lots of poor people's taxes. whereas the american "Zionist billionaires" who keep Israel afloat-especially when the 3bill only reps a tiny % of gdp - that money rips off the american people because when they shovel money to the idf or illegal settlements they do it thru tax deductible foundations so it actually BYPASSES the feds. the money building those settlements is a lot more than the 3 bill, and yes, americans are paying thru the teeth with their hard earned cash who pay taxes.

      ps, i know very well it's not only "Zionist billionaires" who keep Israel afloat. israel is afloat because it steals land and resources, because it has a captive market under occupation that israel shovels all it's surplus to. 1/2 the population lives on 1/10th the water that israel steals from it and sells back too them, and the list goes on and on and on.

      not only that, when israel slaughters thousand people and destroys whole neighborhood in one of it's ritual genocidal sadistic lawn mowings and the global community donates billions to rebuild it israel demands all that money goes thru them and reaps the profit off of every single badge of cement. so we are well aware here how israel keeps afloat. israel profits from slaughtering people. we know ok? we get it.

      and bds is going to be putting a little damper on that. ;) the little macho macho man wimp who lives off death and theft, that party gonna crash one of these days.

    • Besides, the political-support needs of Israel have changed too – early in its life Israel was dependent, politically and financially, on a wall to wall support of American Jews. The situation in this regard has in fact been normalized

      i totally agree ivri, in fact israel could still go on being financially dependent with very little jewish american support as long as team adelson and his like kind cohorts in lobby keep all those congress critters on the trough for eternity israel can keep on keepin' on being dependent on handouts waaaay into the future. they don't need no stink in' wimpy leftie support, or the youth either heck no.

    • oh man like dabakr, we so - like - get how macho israelis are. mean like macho is so where it's at man. never having to explain or say i'm sorry cuz yer al so happening. hey, have you seen the new hipster ad from naftali bennet? wow, like so like so cooool

      link to

      can’t wait to see them jump all over you for that assessment.


    • Israel is Real and those strong in heart guard Israel, do the heavy lifting

    • LOL. i so love yossi gurvitz!

    • you've been prescient and one step ahead in framing this inevitable parting of the ways phil. great run down.

  • Omar Barghouti: What Mondoweiss Means To Me
  • You don't have to suffer alone . . . the CIA is here for you
    • he's probably trying to protect himself after the fact. yoo is a criminal and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, side by side with dick cheney. yoo is the ultimate enabler, the man responsible for providing the legal cover for torture.

  • 'NYT' writer takes Salaita's side, saying U of Illinois violated 'intellectual and academic freedom'
  • Memo to Sen. Warren: More young Dems want US to side with Palestine than Israel
    • i agree w/you finance reform is huge, but...i don't believe she can do much about that anytime soon.

      I don’t think Israel/Palestine will figure highly enough in most liberal Americans’ electoral calculus to swing them away

      yep. that's what they've been banking on for years now. and both parties toe the line. but i don't believe that can go on forever, at all. will it be this election? i don't know. but it's often a tight race in this country between gop and dems. i think the dems need the grassroots, not another lobby pushover and warren is doing nothing to relieve this impression.

    • majority of young Democrats will not mean a pinch of shit to Warren since those young Dems don’t have the bucks. They will vote for her anyway

      couple things about this logic. one is that you're dismissing the central importances of the grassroots (imho), it is not in how much money they raise, it is the mobilization of boots on the ground. it's often the grassroots out there pounding the pavement. granted they do give money (and we saw that with both howard dean and obama, big online campaigns that raised funds) but it pales in comparison to the big funders.

      the other thing is i think you are wrong to assume "They will vote for her anyway". some perhaps, but definitely not all. and i say that primarily because i know i won't and i am not an unusual voter. i am one of the people that flew across the country to get out the vote in the inner city of a swing state and also flew to the iowa caucus to do the same think in an earlier election. even tho i considered my self more progressive than either of those candidates at the time i still was part of an army of progressives doing the legwork.

      i do not believe warren is going to be able to mobilize that kind of grassroots support.

      In this case, it is simple. People who pay the provider typically get what they pay for.

      but can she get out the vote? i predict many progressives will abandon the dems if they do not distance themselves from israel. i'm not giving them any money or any support anymore til they kick the habit.

    • i can't stop laughing!

    • ellen, it's supposed to be up today. i won't be able to see it because my access doesn't show me what you see, so i can't check it. but from what we know on our end it should be up. so give it a couple hours. sorry again.

    • ellen, thank you for saying something about that pop up (that doesn't go away !!! ). i wrote adam and phil about it and adam wrote back and said "i didn't realize that" and that he would look into it. i also inquired about the edit function and his response was "the edit function is coming back, i believe the programmers are working on it now. "


  • Yes, Virginia, there is a liberal Zionist
    • Sibiriak, i agree with your pt about religion not being a people but a set of ideas/myths etc, i just thought i'd point out that the parenthesis you quoted interrupted a sentence of which you only copied half. the full sentence, sans the parenthesis, is

      If there is an inherent fault in the Jewish religion, a fault which inevitably leads Jews into Zionism, and Zionism is a very bad thing, one needs to strike at the root of the problem, wouldn’t you say?

      the way i read it the point was the idea of zionism as being an inherent feature of judaism, which implies non zionism is an aberration of judaism, or possibly one could speculate an aberration of being jewish.

      and so, regarding your critique, "this category error leads you to believe that criticism of Jewish religion= criticism of Jewish people." maybe i agree if that if the "category error" is 'zionism inherent in judaism', because it does seem limiting. sort of a boxing in of the options of what being jewish means and a casting out of the non zionist or non conforming jew. or something like that. something perhaps more nuanced.

    • And then, to top it off, he always takes the “establishment’s” word about itself - See more at: link to

      i know mooser, he can't stop talking about the establishment! i tried explaining it but it's like talking to a brick wall. which reminds me of a comment i made earlier today in another thread in response to cigargod (who seems to get it) link to

      sean seems to think because ACJ has shriveled up it means all those jews miraculously converted to zionism of something. or shriveled up and died!

      maybe he doesn't realize how certain elements grow and prosper underground and go unnoticed until.... which reminds me of this time i was camping with a topo map. the night before we but out a fire in a forest and when we woke up in the morning the ground all around us, about a 15 ft radius was emitting fumes - just sort of smoldering under the surface of the forrest floor, that 8-12 inch layering of fluffy ground stuff. and you could see smoke coming out of it for about 2 feet above ground level. and i realized we had not put the fire out all the way the night before and it had spread underground where there was air to sustain it and spread. there were no sparks or anything that started it. but had we not slept there and seen it and spent a long time putting this out in the morning, it would have spread a LOT before inflaming the forrest. it was spreading underground before turning into a fire. i wouldn't have believed it had i not been there. and we dumped water on that fire the night before too.

      anyway, you can tell him til your blue in the fact and he comes back at you talking about the establishment this and the establishment that. he simply doesn't recognize the possibility those establishment folks don't speak for 'the jews'. he still thinks people speak for all jews.

      even that article today about the threatre in DC, clearly a popular place, and here's WAPO

      That occurred after a small local activist group’s campaign to stop the play asked donors to withhold funds from the JCC’s parent body.

      The group, calling itself Citizens Opposed to Propaganda Masquerading as Art, launched a similar effort in protest of a Theater J offering in 2011, “Return to Haifa,”
      - See more at: link to

      so all it takes is a few influential monied jews to turn a whole theatre company around, one owned by the JCC (establishment!) but clearly the JCC doesn't represent the sentiment of all the jews in DC or even all the jews affiliated with it, because those shows he put on were very popular! i think there's some tendency for some in the jewish community to claim they speak for all jews, obviously. like netanyahu saying he's king of the jews and israel being the state of all jews and yada yada. what bs. the jewish establishment is not going to change. but like so what? there's no rule of the universe saying you can just treat them like a log in the road and ride roughshod right over them. clearly, he has faith in the jewish establishment. la ti da. at a minimum you'd think he'd notice how concrened the establishment jews seems to be radically concerned about this trend we see happening w/the jewish youth (even meetings in the knesset! and conferences discussing it in tel aviv). but nooo.

    • Not everything in Judaism and Jewishness is that top-down, that hierarchical.

      i am well aware of that mooser but i was responding to seans claim, and he always postulates about "the establishment" because that's the only actor he recognizes as being qualified to be of consideration. jews as individuals or jews acting individually do not generally appear in any of the issues he thinks are worthy of scrutiny. so, within the narrow framework in which he wishes to address, he's right. the Zionist wing of the Jewish establishment has prevailed in the struggle against the anti-Zionist wing (of the Jewish establishment).

      but, if you break down the demographics of anti zionists between those in the "establishment wing" vs those who are not, or are free agents, arguably most are not establishment folks. whereas if you break down the demographics of zionists, perhaps, or likely perhaps, most of them are part of the establishment. you get where i am going with this? the parameters of sean's equation are fixed narrowly at the onset in such a way as they automatically eliminate a subsection of equation from the get go.

      an example of anti zionists being excluded from the equation is provided in the example of AJC, the group/"the establishment" shrunk as a result of the pressure from zionist establishment. but where did those people go? they didn't disappear, many likely simply dropped out of the establishment of anti zionists, therefore they are not included in the (sean's) equation. but if the parameters of the equation were changed just slightly from "the Zionist wing of the Jewish establishment has prevailed in the struggle against the anti-Zionist wing." to 'Zionist have prevailed in the struggle against anti-Zionism'. obviously, that is a much different statement and one that i would not agree with at all.

      if they had prevailed there would be a LOT less handwringing of the kind we're reading about daily in the press now. they have not prevailed in the least. now as time goes forward i do believe more and more of these jews may in fact consolidate into formations of established groups of anti zionists (like jvp or whatever) but that is not even necessary.

      the idea that people are not counted or not even included as part of an equation unless they are part of an establishment group is weird on the face of it. but that's the kind of equation we continually hear from sean because he respects establishment. whereas today in american, less and less americans do. they have a name for them, the 99%. granted i think there are probably less than 99% who respect and align with the 1%, but either way americans have an independent streak. unless one postulates american jews are so out of the mainstream that many of them, as americans, do not share that sense of independence, it's fair to assume there are just lots of jews unaccounted for when speculating about who's prevailing in the struggle between jewish zionists vs jewish anti zionists. last i heard the trend is favorable for the anti team right now, it's on the upswing, especially in the youth. unless that trend can be reversed, it's not looking so bright for team zionism. and don't they know it too.

    • it doesn't make sense to me someone would write an article w/a theme that there is no such thing as 'liberal' zionism if they considered a zionist and a liberal. or something. my head is spinning.

    • for the record, i accept the existence of Israel as an established fact too. i think one would have to be delusional not to accept it's there. that doesn't mean i think it will always be there or support it always being there.

      i think anyone would be a fool to deny the Zionist wing of the Jewish establishment has prevailed in the struggle against the anti-Zionist wing. obviously. but that doesn't mean tides don't move in and out throughout history. it doesn't mean they are "utterly squashed". in fact last i heard lots of the youth are turning away from zionism.

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