Here is a truly weird column about Jewish intelligence by Dana Milbank, the WP columnist who slagged Walt and Mearsheimer last year, labeling them blue-eyed and Teutonic, i.e., Nazis. (In this column he refuses even to dignify W&M by naming them, though he gives Abe Foxman’s book a push.)
Milbank’s column covers an event yesterday at the American Enterprise Institute all about Charles Murray’s piece in Commentary on Jewish genius. There was a debate at AEI, and the funny thing is that no one took the opposite side. Murray said it’s genetic, the respondent said, It’s because Jews value learning. Well, she didn’t disagree with the premise. I say Milbank’s column is weird because he throws around Yiddish like "goyische kop"–the great old Yiddish expression for having a gentile mind, i.e., not the sharpest tool in the drawer–without explaining it to a larger readership, and suggests at one point that we shouldn’t be talking about Jewish intelligence, it’s a verboten subject. I find his point of view snaky and confusing. It feels like he’s secretly bragging. Also: I bridle when people throw around Yiddish without doing readers the service of explaining it. It’s as bad as old writers putting in a paragraph of German or French assuming you know what they’re saying…
Myself, I applaud AEI for having the panel, as I give two cheers to Murray for his investigation. Jewish achievement is something a lot of people wonder about. My answer is that Jews are smarter, for now. Per Yuri Slezkine’s great book, The Jewish Century, this moment in history has called on Jewish gifts. Yes, we value learning. Or valued it. I am reading the great Isaac Bashevis Singer’s More Tales from My Father’s Court. It’s about his rabbi father’s mediation in disputes among Jews in Warsaw between the wars. Beautiful. The father is constantly trying to return to his studies, and telling young Isaac to study harder. When a woman whose marriage the rabbi saves tries to give young Isaac a groschen, the father tells her not to, the boy will only spend it on sweets (and secular books!). The boy is angry.
But those were the values of my ancestors: learning above everything. When rich people come into the court, they are often treated with contempt. False values!
That’s why I have the headline I do. Jewish history is changing before our eyes. Our entrepreneurialism and dedication to learning have made us wealthier than ever, and we have come to celebrate wealth. But it’s corrupting. Look what privilege did to the WASPs, made them etiolated and entitled. Even more corrupting mentally is the intellectual burden on American Jews of arguing all the time that black is white: that The Palestinians are not oppressed, that a separate roadway system and checkpoints do not make apartheid. This is the prevaricating legalism to which great young minds are summoned by the Israel lobby!
Much of our intelligence was sharpened by outsider status. That’s over. History is fluid. Human gifts are shared. Our ancient values are now being widely emulated by many other peoples–as they should be. And if is genetic, well, our genes are being shared because so many others want to marry us. Yes, I agree, right now we are smarter. Not for long…
How long until you can select various personality/intelligence traits for your newborn? Everyone says that the ability to select for eye color or hair color is just around the corner — the various genes responsible have already been identified for these simple traits. Do you think this type of selection will spread to traits more relevant to educational or career success?
Also, it is pretty clear that American Jews are more willing to intermarry with other "whites" or "asians." There are very few intermarriages with African Americans. This may be because the gap between average social status (and other related measures) is much larger between Jews and African Americans than between other groups. To me, it is the most disadvantaged who have the most to gain via reducing this "genetic gap", the largest pay off both for themselves and for society at large.
I think that the gap between IQs between ethnic groups is bound to close within a couple generations one way or the other. I think that gaps between average IQs of developed weathly nations and poorer nations will continue until the technology for this type of manipulation spreads. I think that in the near term there will likely be many voices that argue against manipulation in this regards as it would represent the loss, in business speak, of a "competitive advantage." It is also a difficult subject to breach.
This is difficult territory in general to discuss.
Philip wrote: "History is fluid. Human gifts are shared. Our ancient values are now being widely emulated by many other peoples–as they should be."
You are very right that this is going to be a short lived phenomena now that there we are so urbanized and in a high technology/service type of culture in the West. There is huge demand for these types of traits, and technology for manipulation of these traits is within relative reach. There are huge ethical issues and also safety issues with these types of manipulations (which will likely take a couple decades to resolve at least, even though the technology is here to do the basic manipulations.) I think that America may not be the leader in these types of manipulations based on the idiocyncacies in its culture, I think it is much more likely to be something that China embraces before we do, although China is more homogeneous in its population's genetic makeup which means that it is easier to control interactions.
I think that there is a "genetic divide", in much the same way there is a "digital divide" and that we should approach it in the type of mind set. Acknowledging that there is an issue that leads to imbalances and that overall hurts our economy is half the battle. Pretending that segments of our society are just lazy or don't show enough initiative are glossing over the facts of the situation.
Right now reproductive trends in many segments of American society are not exactly what can be considered "eugenic", thus I do disagree with Philip on his argument that this will spread naturally through out the population, there will be some spread of these genetic traits but relying on interbreeding alone would dozens of generations.
I think the future could entail the emergence of a type of Monsanto for human beings. A couple decades off still, but you can sketch out the general outline of how such endeavors could work.
You assume that assimilation plays no role. I feel as Jews assimilate and become less Jewish, even without intermarriage they revert to tne mean. Culture and in particular religious culture has always been present in Jewish life. As it disappears,Jews dumb down. Look around you, observe your parents and grandparents and then look at your kids and grandkids you'll see the difference.
evanstonjew wrote: "You assume that assimilation plays no role. I feel as Jews assimilate and become less Jewish, even without intermarriage they revert to tne mean. Culture and in particular religious culture has always been present in Jewish life. As it disappears,Jews dumb down."
You are right in a way. You obviously didn't read the article that Philip linked to. In it Murray says that some types of assimilation are a way of filtering less bright Jews away from Judaism. Murray was talking about ancient times, but it is still somewhat relevant today:
"If you were dumb and a Jew, it was a lot easier to be a Christian."
I suggest reading through Murray's longer take in Commentary. My interpretation of your comment is that you only have a light grasp on the subject:
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm?id=10855
It is amazing how much of a supremacist sect Jews are.
If Jews value learning, does that translate into only the smart breeding, the smart breeding more, or does it just mean Jewish culture is a culture of learning, which means Jews are more educated and are taught to think, rather than innate intelligence? Further, do Jews have more opportunities through the hordeing of resources and doleing them out solely to Jews? Before you scream "anti-Semite" realize that there is as much proof for what I say as what y'all say… minimal and anecdotal.
Everyone, read what you write. Do you not see why there would be anti-semitism if this is how you perceive yourself, as better than everyone else?
Defenestrator wrote: "It is amazing how much of a supremacist sect Jews are."
Almost every ethnic group I have ever run into to had some pride.
Defenestrator wrote: "If Jews value learning, does that translate into only the smart breeding, the smart breeding more, or does it just mean Jewish culture is a culture of learning, which means Jews are more educated and are taught to think, rather than innate intelligence?"
The interesting thing is that the Jewish strategy as outlined by Murry doesn't mean that only the smart breed, but rather only those who were sufficiently educated and interested in the complexities of Halakha remains Jews, the rest assimilated. This is only possible if there is another population to assimilate into (and Murray gives the example of Christianity, an offshot of Judaism, as one alternative that "dumb Jews" could assimilate into it.)
The truth is that it is probably a combination of nuture and nature, both feeding into each other.
Defenestrator wrote: "Further, do Jews have more opportunities through the hordeing of resources and doleing them out solely to Jews?"
It is built into the genetic structure of humans to favor those we perceive as similar to us (kinship), either in general culture or ethnicity or religion. Members of any community, be it a neighborhood, church, etc, help each other. There are studies those that show that as diversity increases in a neighborhood, there is more suspicion and less cooperation, which is probably a result of those communities no longer perceiving each other as true kinship partners, but rather competitors. This is a long term problem is in society.
I think you are identifying universal qualities associated with ethnic groups in general and then applying them only to Jews.
"The women are smarter.
Smarter than the man in every way."
There are smart Jews and dumb Jews, same as there are smart and dumb anything.
The value of learning is cultural, and worth retaining as a value, even if it doesn't result in income as much as other characteristics.
We have enough, so therefore can afford some leisure, and some good use of it.
Just into the inbox from Jewish Voice for Peace – seems germane:
Please join JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE & BAY AREA WOMEN IN BLACK
in a discussion and book-reading with writer/poet activist/scholar
MELANIE KAYE/KANTROWITZ
celebrating her new book
THE COLORS OF JEWS: RACIAL POLITICS & RADICAL DIASPORISM
Sunday, Nov. 4, 4-6pm
Cafe Leila, 1724 San Pablo Ave., Berkeley,(between University Ave. and Francisco)
THE COLOR OF JEWS examines views on Jews and whiteness – as well as the complexities of African/Jewish relations, the racial mix and disparate voices of the Jewish community, contemporary Jewish anti-racist and multicultural models, and the diasporic state of Jewish life in the United States.
Kaye-Kantrowitz's new book is a rich and exciting exploration of multicultural Jewish identity, a de-centering of Israel, a re-centering of Diaspora in Jewish life, and a look at what this all means for progressive Jewish activism. It greatly expanded my understanding of what it means to be Jewish.
–Paul Kivel
Mind-stretching, moving, and pragmatic … this is a book of hope.
– Adrienne Rich
Dr. Melanie Kaye/Kantrowitz was founding director of Jews for Racial and Economic Justice in NYC. She is a member of the Advisory Board of Jewish Voice for Peace. A women's studies pioneer, Melanie continues to be active in anti-war, lgbt, feminist, anti-racist, and labor movements. Previous books include THE ISSUE IS POWER & MY JEWISH FACE – and THE TRIBE OF DINA, co-edited with Irena Klepfisz.
$10 Donation requested to cover expenses, no one turned away. You are also welcome to join us after the reading, from 6:30pm-8:30pm for a dinner reception for Melanie (additional $15 requested for dinner)
Save the date for this upcoming events:
Nov 28, 7.30 pm film screening, YOUNG, JEWISH AND LEFT
Nov 29, 7.30 pm, book reading, ALICE ROTHCHILD: BROKEN PROMISES, BROKEN DREAMS, STORIES OF JEWISH AND PALESTINIAN TRAUMA AND RESILIENCE
for more info on these events, go to link to jewishvoiceforpeace.org
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This article in the Washington Post did demonstrate a glaring double standard that exists in the American discourse on race/ethnicity and intelligence. This article has Jews celebrating in part the fact that they had a higher than average intelligence. It was presented in a matter of fact fashion. Last week, one of the pioneers of genetics said that African Americans might have a lower than average level of intelligence and he was attacked and forced to resign from his academic post.
This is a strange dichotomy. Maybe it is just an example of "if you can't say anything nice, its better to say nothing at all."
But deny it as we do, these types of differences can lead to social conflict and strife.
My unorthodox belief is that part of the Israel-Palestine conflict is a result of genetic differences between the European/Russian descendant Jewish population and the local Palestinian Arab populations. That is why I support a one-state solution, because you put both people together in the same lot and tie their destinies together. If you split them, you further isolate their gene pools ensuring that their genetic differences will remain stark (especially when you compare the differential success of the two resulting states) and thus they will view themselves in a racial competition and hate could continue. Racial competition for resources between unmatched groups is not going to go very well. A one-state solution that deemphasizes race/religion would go a long way to solving the issues over there.
The current Palestinian refugee camps, where food is provided by the UN and individuals don't have to work to provide for their families is a very non-eugenic situation. This can only hurt the Palestinians there and exacerbate the problems.
Did Philip Roth say: 'the only dumb Jews I ever met were in Israel' or 'in Israel I met only dumb Jews'. Perhaps either statement is apocryphal. I have, at any case, not been able to find it.
Here, in my (temporary) neck of the woods it is the Chinese who are regarded as the clever and successful ones. And, indeed, it appears to be the case that, in international comparisons of IQ levels, East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) consistently come out on top.
However, I would be hesitant to ascribe their local success to that factor. I believe that their minority status and inter ethnic solidarity have far more explanatory value here.
And here we return to the Jews. In an interesting article at the occasion of Israel's fiftieth birthday, included in the American Jewish Yearbook of 1998, Yossi Klein Halevi wrote, inter alia:
"The re-formation of the Jews into a nation has shattered some cherished images. Jews, we have discovered, are child molesters and rapists and murderers – just like any other people. No doubt that was always so: but where once we tried to hide our flaws from hostile eyes, now we broadcast them on the front pages of our newspapers. That lack of self consciousness may also have tempered somewhat the Jewish drive for excellence. Indeed, Israeli education is often disappointingly mediocre. One Russian immigrant offered this insight: "When I came to Israel I was amazed to discover dumb Jews. In Moscow all the Jews I knew were high achievers. At first it made me feel very depressed. But then I realized: in Russia we were a minority that had to constantly prove itself. Here, we are a people."
Jewish intelligence may have been a defense mechanism in response to their inability to own land. They therefore became over-achievers. If you think about it, intelligence and learning can be carried accross any border without interference or permits.
Franz Werfel wrote a funny and affectionate play, "Jachobovsky and The Colonel," which was made into a movie, "Me and The Colonel," starring Danny Kaye and Kurt Jurgens. The story is that during the Fall of France in 1940, a Polish Jewish refugee is forced to travel with a Polish aristocrat ahead of the German Army. Every time they get into a fix it's Jachobovsky's survival instinct that gets them out of it. The aristocrat is completely incapable of dealing with not being on top, while Jachobovsky has always been on the bottom as a refugee and feels right at home. This may be what's behind Jewish intelligence.
There is no proof that only dumb Jews assimilate.
Where are those studies that show that diversity is a bad thing?
Further, are you not giving the gentiles a reason to eradicate Jews from the world, because they need to act before Jews take it over as a ruling class?
I don't believe these things, but Matt is providing the reasoning for the thinking behind anti-Semitism. He is practically begging the world to hate Jews.
Arie Brand quoted: "When I came to Israel I was amazed to discover dumb Jews. In Moscow all the Jews I knew were high achievers."
This statement fits perfectly within the framework provided by Murray. The idea is that Jews who didn't met the high standards over time assimilated into the surrounding culture. Probably just had a higher rate of intermarriage than those smart Jews.
In Israel, there is no where to assimilate. It is very rare for an Israeli Jew to become a Muslim. Everyone still stays they are Jewish even though they are mostly secular. This is why you find "dumb Jews." You won't find too many "dumb Jews" though within the ranks of Israel's many Orthodox Yeshivas. What happens now is that you need to tighten your definition of who is truly a "Jew" in Israel, it is those who are still following traditional practices. The assimilation into Christianity that was popular in Europe has been replaced in Israel with the assimilation into Jewish secularism.
Israel should be significantly less eugenic for the mainly secular Israeli Jews than the Jews who were a minority in Catholic/Protestant Europe or Orthodox Russia. I made this connection some time ago based on eugenic principles. To be fair though, Israel isn't as disgenic as the Palestinian refugee camps. It is hard to beat the Palestinian refugee environment with regards to complete dysfunction.
I expect that genetics will be a larger consideration in public policy in the coming decades. Countries will have to develop sound policies that do roughly and loosely align with eugenic principles if they want to remain competitive in the world economy and avoid internal class wars (which can result from the unintentional growth of "genetic divides") over decades or centuries. There is some recognition of this in many branches of US policies (mostly in conservative circles), although it is not discussed openly, it is just slid through under the cover of disingenuous arguments.
Goyische kop?
My response to Milbank and AEI is “Vayoel Moshe”.
If…and I stress "if"… Satmar Grand Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum is correct in his understanding of the dynamic between Zionism and anti-Semitism, then history will judge Milbank and the beltway crowd at AEI as some of the most tragic and prideful fools to ever grace our planet.
The hubris-nemesis complex. It is endemic to all cultures. Will we ever learn?
Also, goyische kop notwithstanding, at least I am not attending prayer meetings with Rapturists. Good grief. Weiss writes: “Yes, I agree right now, we are smarter. Not for long…” The alliance with the Rapturists may prove the point. Imagine Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove riding the bomb and thumping the Bible at the same time. That’s the Rapturist movement. Will Edwin Black one day end up writing a book about the disastrous historical agreement between the Rapturists and Likud? Let’s hope not. Actually Gershom Gorenberg has already suggested that this relationship of “strangelove” will lead to violence and destruction, but apparently he is not in vogue with the AEI crowd.
And I’d be a bit careful about narrowly defining “genius”. In my opinion, the brilliance of Michael Jordan certainly is equal to the brilliance of Itzhak Perlman.
But I admit…I don’t know the answers. The time of “ideological disarray and realignment” continues, in part because of David Wurmser and the breathtakingly stupid Wurmser option, apparently endorsed by the imperial king of goyische kop — George Bush. I’ll continue to cling to the work of Martin Van Creveld but the work of Ilan Pappe has made me realize that, years ago, I must have read Leon Uris in the spirit of…well…goyische kop. All one can do is search for new organizing principles in this time of “ideological disarray” and hope that the world can avert a tragedy that will engulf us all.
Jews are more intelligent….than who?
Huummm…if jews are smarter how come gentiles run the world for the most part while Jews have been run around the world from one place to another….oh wait, it's because Jews are hated because they killed Christ….right?…LOL
How about Asian?…are Jews smarter than Asians?
Were they smarter than the Germans? Oh wait…the Germans thought they were the smarter race. Opps.
Acutally there appear to be a large number of very stupid Jews to me…take the jewish neos for instance…they are so transparent as to be childlike in their propaganda. Intellectual they are not. A high school junior in propaganda 101 can take their arguments apart in a minute.
How about the Palestines?..are Jews smarter than Arabs or Palestines? Doesn't appear so to me….they are mentally incapable evidently of catching on to the fact that people will fight and die to keep their land to the very end and take the Jews with them.
If Jews are so smart why does the US have to give them 3 billion a year and share a lot of our innovations with them? If they are so smart why is Israel, mostly jews, the number one industrial and business spying group in the US arena? Huh?. We don't the jews just think up new things themselves instead of trying to steal someone's else intelluctual property? why do we have to sell them US military high tech. Why don't they design their own. Huh?
I can understand that a lot of Jews have a inferiority complex due to their victimhood history and past powerlessness…and need to elevate themselves in their eyes and the eyes of others….but really..trying to claim genetic intelligence superority reminds of that group in Germany…what were they called?…oh yea…Nazis…the master race.
Get real. Statements like this not only make you look absurd but like a racist. Hell maybe you are racist.
Besides the German nazis I can't think of a single other ethnic group that spends so much time thinking about themselves, talking about themsleves, writting about themselves and then alternately wringing their hands over their victimhood and beating their chest to proclaim their superiority.
Get some mental health..er.. help before your head explodes.
Defenestrator wrote: "There is no proof that only dumb Jews assimilate."
If it was true, it is likely much less true today where all religions are in decline in the Western world. Probably most assimilations these days have nothing to do with intelligence.
Defenestrator wrote: "Where are those studies that show that diversity is a bad thing?"
There are many. Here is one to get you started (do a citation analysis on it):
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0038-4941.00031?journalCode=ssqu
Defenestrator wrote: "Further, are you not giving the gentiles a reason to eradicate Jews from the world, because they need to act before Jews take it over as a ruling class?"
I think that this is a real risk. The solution is to ensure that no one is taking over (which suggests exploitation for one side's benefit), but rather everyone is working together for shared mutual interests.
Defenestrator wrote: "I don't believe these things, but Matt is providing the reasoning for the thinking behind anti-Semitism. He is practically begging the world to hate Jews."
I apologize if I was giving you that impression. That was not my intent. I am a realist who has studied many ethnic groups, religions and genetics. I was trying to be accurate and realistic in my replies to you and my comments on the situation in general.
If Jews are so smart, how come they brought us the disaster that is Israel?
One hundred years plus down the track, and the Zionists still haven't worked out how to get rid of the indigenous non-Jewish population of Palestine.
OK, I'll play.
If Jews are so smart, how come no one except Phil has ever thought of reporting what Andrea Levin says in CAMERA meetings (to pick just one example). Didn't it occur to any of them that the American people might be interested?
Sander Gilman has written an interesting book called *Smart Jews*. Although I've known some not too smart Jews, I must admit being tempted by the stereotype. But then, I work in an academic setting where smart people are a bit overrepresented. Here's a link to Gilman's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Jews-Construction-Superior-Intelligence/dp/0803270690/ref=sr_1_39/104-4345493-5395945?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193814795&sr=1-39
Smart people can do dumb things. But I don't think the current situation has much to do with IQ. Fear kills brain cells, and there's alotta fearmongering by the right-wing Jewish demagogues that is taking its toll on the Jewish mind.
It's probably that stereotype of the smart Jew that's making me very short-tempered with this whole mess — as if Jews should somehow know better than to fall for that fearmongering.
Someone in Israel explained to me many years ago that Jewish intelligence was not really a question of IQ: that is to say, "genetic". It's a fact that many Asians "score" quite a bit higher than Jews on IQ tests. The practical superiority of Jewish intelligence is cultural not genetic .
He told me that Jewish intelligence was more a result of "method of thinking" than the gray matter itself. A method developed and perfected in centuries of Talmudic argument.
The essence off this method is to quickly wade through masses of argument and detail to find the central axis of the question. Once found, "all the rest is commentary", as Rabbi Hillel would have put it. Going directly to the "hinge" on which everything turns gives power to thought.
An example from "real life", might be Michael Milken's invention of the "Junk Bond" to finance management buyouts. The "hinge" is that corporations are really owned by "nobody", the center of the question is that they are controlled by only a tiny percentage of the equity so the management can borrow money backed by "nothing" in order to become that "nobody" and then control the price of the shares to their own benefit. Being able to see directly to the truth that being nobody backed by nothing could make you a "master of the universe" is pure pilpul.
The Jewish father of a friend of mine (mother was a shiksa) who made a fortune in the petrochemical business in Brazil, gave me some very good advice when I was a boy. He said, "David, any business you have to put your own money in is not a business".
The Jewish "thing" about money is not about greed, it is simply that money is the "hinge" to almost everything. The center question. If everything that people do is done in exchange for money than why bother with anything else? Use money (other people's if possible) to make money… All the rest is commentary.
The only problem that might be occurring in America is that this powerful "Talmudic" method of thinking, which is predicated on only a small group of excluded people being "initiated in its mysteries", is spreading out into the general population. This could be disastrous, a sociological equivalent of nuclear proliferation.
If all the goyim, instead of making cars and washing machines, building bridges, roads and dams and all the other goyishness, gets to be in on the gag and realizes that financial engineering produces more spendable wealth than producing actual goods and services (the American goyim already have) than the world may just grind to a halt and become a gigantic game of 'Monopoly'.
It's all about proportion. Soup without salt is no good, soup with too much salt is no good either. A drop of genuine vanilla is the master touch to a desert pour in the whole bottle and it becomes inedible. Proportion.
So the Jewish people are doing nothing wrong, they are just living their Dharma. The services of this community have been essential to western civilization since the Middle Ages. The problem is with the goyish faux-yehudim, who, like vanillin, imitate the real product.
"You assume that assimilation plays no role. I feel as Jews assimilate and become less Jewish, even without intermarriage they revert to tne mean."
Well, let us think of some smart Jews: Spinoza, Heinrich Heine,David Ricardo, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Albert Einstein, Karl Popper, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Simone Weil, Andre Weil etc.
All conspicuously non-Jewish Jews.
Murray stated in the Commentary article Matt referred to:
"Some economic historians have traced the decline of Spain after 1500, and the subsequent rise of the Netherlands, in part to the Sephardi commercial talent that was transferred from the one to the other."
I think Murray is a bit lagging behind here. This thesis was, before the first World War, notably launched by the German sociologist and economic historian Werner Sombart, who defended the general view that the Jewish role in the rise of capitalism had been essential.
A specialist in the economic history of Amsterdam, the Dutch historian Van Dillen, shot down Sombart's thesis as far as the Netherlands was concerned in the 1930s. Sephardim Jews came to Amsterdam partly because it was already at the end of the sixteenth century an important staple market.But Van Dillen argued that their capital was initially too limited for them to have played a critical role in the subsequent economic boom of the city.
More recently it has been argued that the Portuguese Jews in Amsterdam played an important part in certain sectors of the economy through the Portugal – Brazil link. This was initially especially the case in the sugar trade and later in that in diamonds, slaves and tobacco.
An excerpt from Professor Kevin MacDonald's blog:
http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/Blog.htm
"In other words, unlike the Ashkenazim, they have not developed an adversarial, competitive stance toward the people and culture of America. One can't imagine them becoming a hostile elite, as Ashkenazi Jews became in the Soviet Union. They have shown no tendencies toward developing a culture of critique that subjected Western culture to what John Murray Cuddihy termed "punitive objectivity. … the vindictive objectivity of the marginal nonmember." Unlike their Ashkenazi brethren, they had no impact on Western societies in the 20th century. In this regard, they are much more like the Overseas Chinese than their Jewish brothers from Europe."
Yes, "punitive objectivity… vindictive objectivity"… all the rest is commentary.
Once upon a time, while still a boy living in a swamp, a middle-age Jewish attorney visited, from far-off Chicago. Left alone together while my parents went to check the vittles, he was relating a story, to which I responded with some vapid, tangential comment.
"What does that have to do with what we were talking about?" he asked sharply.
At first, I thought him rude. Later, I realized he was doing me a kindness.
It was a valuable lesson that no one else had ever provided.
And to this interesting discussion, I offer, from dear Bal Shem Tov–the following (possibly earning me again that long-ago reproach):
"The moment you see anyone suffering, no matter who it is– whether someone important or ordinary, whether someone righteous or wicked, and whether a Jew or a non-Jew, even animals, birds or insects– you must act immediately to relieve their pain and suffering, doing everything you can, even beyond your ability, to help them, for that’s the essence of Judaism."
this is why the world has had to deal with the jewish question…cause they themselves posed it to the world.
>>Besides the German nazis I can't think of a single other ethnic group that spends so much time thinking about themselves, talking about themsleves, writting about themselves and then alternately wringing their hands over their victimhood and beating their chest to proclaim their superiority.<<
"whether someone
important or ordinary,
righteous or wicked,
a Jew or a non-Jew"
That seems to be the essence of what was said… the essence of judaism?
"animals, birds or… insects"
you cant accuse weizmann of being dumb…but how intelligent was he really? look at where the zionist movement that promoted anti semitism as the tool for the creation of the "jewish state" led the beguiled masses.
zionism in the 20th century led the jewish masses into a debacle of epic proportions. try pointing that out to americas beguiled zionist supporters.
from lenni brenners book zionism in the age of dictators..quote..
>Weizmann’s statements at the time, as well as his memoirs, tell us how they saw the situation. He appeared at the Versailles Conference on 23 February 1919. Once again he enunciated the traditional line on Jewry shared by both anti-Semites and Zionists. It was not the Jews who really had problems, it was the Jews who were the problem:
Jewry and Judaism were in a frightfully weakened condition, presenting, to themselves and to the nations, a problem very difficult of solution. There was, I said, no hope at all of such a solution – since the Jewish problem revolved fundamentally round the homelessness of the Jewish people – without the creation of a National Home. [25]
The Jews, of course, presented no real problem – neither to the nations nor to “themselves” – but Weizmann had a solution to the non-existent “problem”. Once again Zionism offered itself to the assembled capitalist powers as an anti-revolutionary movement. Zionism would “transform Jewish energy into a constructive force instead of its being dissipated in destructive tendencies”. [26] Even in his later years Weizmann could still only see the Jewish tragedy during the Russian Revolution through the Zionist end of the telescope<<
Whatever way you wanna look at Jewish intelligence, there's no disputing that the Lobby's behaviour — and the Likudniks for whom the Lobby speaks — is a matter of having sunk to the level of Goyim Naches.
I really wish people would get over this racial IQ garbage. Why not have a discussion about penis size? – at least you can MEASURE them.
Well, actually, the Canadian academic Philip Rushdon did exactly that — i.e., measured the penises of various ethnic groups. He found that the Japanese have the smallest penisis and that this has something to do with their superior intelligence.
I don't know how he measured the genitals of the women in his study — if, indeed, he had any.
PaulO wrote: "I really wish people would get over this racial IQ garbage. Why not have a discussion about penis size? – at least you can MEASURE them."
Would this satisfy your needs to discuss other racial/ethnic differences?
http://www.amazon.com/Taboo-Athletes-Dominate-Sports-Afraid/dp/1891620398
It is a previous book by Jon Entine, the same author of the book under discussion at the AEI event:
http://www.amazon.com/Abrahams-Children-Identity-Chosen-People/dp/0446580635
The Lobby, Unmasked
The Israel lobby: "We have an 'unwritten contract' with the American media"
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11837
"Progressive writer Philip Weiss reports on his excellent blog a speech by Andrea Levin, president of the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA)…"
Oarwell – Great story and great quote from the Bal Shem Tov. That is how Judaism was explained to me by my agnostic jewish parents.
Untranslated French or German in literature meant that the author was writing for an educated audience or was indulging in pretentious fancy.
Untranslated Yiddish means that the author assumes the reader has been inundated by the onslaught of Jewish cultural reference and ownership of the media, or that the reader will understand the implied threat to anyone not speaking the ruling class's secret code.
I suggest a response in kind to each oh-so-hip and/or threateningly gratuitous Yiddish utterance: A judicious spit on the ground.
cooper, watch you don't spit on your boots.
———-
Phil, it looks like Samuel Clemens would disagree with you:
"Mark Twain unknowingly touches on the same point in his essay concerning the Jews. He wrote in the secular year 1897:
If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people….He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and he has done it with his hands tied behind him….The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in the twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"
——————-
Also found this hopeful note:
"Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan provides an additional reason to believe that Hashem (God) cares about the direction of the world. He points to the experience of man and nations that only the good is stable, while evil tends to destroy itself."
Let us alive today hope that it is so.
(Quotes taken from a website devoted to the Vilna Gaon, Moshe Tzuriel)
—————-
Other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time,
but it burned out,
The Jew shall have no such problem, he will set the world afire
and burn it all.
Demonizer Poet wrote: "Other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, The Jew shall have no such problem, he will set the world afire and burn it all."
That's just a display of hate, nothing more, nothing less.
"other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in the twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening"
The misleading term here is of course 'the Jew'. Who is s/he? To answer that question one can always enter into the 'venerable shell- game' (Neumann) re Jewish identity. It can pertain to a religion, a race, a cultural entity. There is always something to show as a sign of survival.
I'm not sure the art of manipulation is a sign of greater IQ more psychosis, Phil. I'm getting the point where I would like for Jews to decamp to the country they've pushed this world to war and back for and leave us be. You're all so smart and yet so humanitarian as a people, the only jewish country in the world legalised torture and gift wraps apartheid, bamboozled the world only but slipping hyper power to act as your bouncer. Smart and humanitarian? I got another name for it. We being the ones paying in terms of blood and our own country distorted and hated all over the world kinda makes us dumb as shit, I grant you. We just have to get the knack of pushing back your ADL and AIPAC, push back against a top heavy jewish media, switch off to the properganda and make a stand despite all the smears and psycological games. We don't lack the intelligence because allot of folks know what we have to do, and we can't lack the cahonies cos our guys are dead, dying, and limbless for Israels defence of its realm. Whatever it is we're lacking, the moment we realise it, get some, is the day zionism loses it's grip on America and then we're free. The troubles for the smart humanitarian jewish folk begins at that point.
In general, Jewish intelligence and achievement is indeed impressive, but only in the context of Gentile societies where they have been perennial outsiders. If Jews were one day forced to live totally amongst themselves there would obviously be a limited amount of slots open for hugely successful lawyers, scientists, writers, businesspeople, etc., but because they continue to live as a nomadic minority amongst Gentile majorities thier potential for filling these 'intelligent' roles in society is as unlimited as the Gentile population can climb.
As studies have shown, the average intelligence level of a secular Israeli Jew is actually lower than the citizens of European nations like Holland or Germany. So it seems that YES Jews are able to succeed in societies where they are minorites, but unable to distinguish themselves in any measurable way in Israel where they are the majority. The 'smartest' Jews in Israel (i.e. the most bookish) remain those that continue to live a dispora lifestyle (the Ultra-Orthodox) despite being amongst their own — this is quite startling. Does it mean that Jews are onle able to be intelligent and succeed if they are a small and clannish minority and live as perpetual outsiders?
It's also worth pointing out that the most influential Jewish geniuses in history all repudiated Judaism and had a tenuous link at best with the Jewish community…Marx, Freud, Einstein, Spinoza, etc.
Finally, it seems that the pinnacle of success that an ethnic/religiuous group can achieve is the formation of a stable society/culture/nation. The fact that Jews were unable to achieve this for nearly 2,000 years (and are only able to keep Israel afloat through MASSIVE financial/military assistance from America) would prove that, despite all of their success in Gentile societies, Jews are still unable to form and maintain their own nation or culture where they are in control of their destiny as a group. Jews must always rely on Gentiles for their jobs as lawyers, businesspeople, accountants, professors, and so forth as they are apparently unable to form their own culture and society where they would also have to work as cashiers, mail carriers, sanitation workers, etc.
So yes, as long as Jews continue to live as a scattered people in Gentile majority socieites there will always be room for them to succeed and distinguish themselves — if however they are one day forced to settle down as a people on one territory they will settle in to normalcy just as all other groups and nations since they won't need that extra bit of intelligence to survive and prosper anymore.
"…other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in the twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind."
Actually, it would seem that this isn't true anymore considering the massive prevalence of Jewish genetic diseases caused through centuries of inbreeding. Yes Jews will still continue to marry and breed with other Jews, but they are having to mix it up a bit (Sehaprdic with Ashkenazi in Israle; French Ashkenazi with American Ashkenazi) in order to avoid further deterioration of the Jewish gene pool.
Also, do note that until 1947 Jews weren't able to form their own country or empire like the Greeks or Persians or Romans…they always had to live WITHIN those empires, and always at the disposal of the Gentile majority. So in all rationality who is the weaker group now?
Philip – Stop being such a pussy and respond to Samie already.
The speculations of racialists.
The sarmatian doesn't appreciate it, but I like the religious angle in things.
Some people believe their god is someone willing to sacrifice it's innocent son for the sole purpose of saving a place for his followers in some Paradise.
I guess that religion is emulating the way in which elite jews (real earthly gods) sustain the jewish paradise (jewish community, a place of waltzerian detachment from responsibility and the fantasy of tikkun) through the sacrifice of innocent jews (holocausts, pogroms) and the subsequent inoculation of guilty in the body of the new host.
That's how you create a strategy for elite survival: sacrifice the peons, then make a show of crying over their bodies for all the world to see, sell the tickets cheap, but exact a heavy compensation in the form of money, favours and especially a sort of diplomatic immunity for the remaining survivors: victim status.
That was the game before the gentile world adopted some very restricted financial privileges for the "nation state". Elite jews perceived they would be left without those privileges unless they made some effort to aggregate jews somewhere and create a nation-state. For that they resorted to the old method: sacrifice some peons.
Now elite jews have their access to state-level financial corruption without having to set their feet on the, ahem, "promised land". Their state has more nuclear warheads than needed for deterrence, because what they really need is blackmail power.
Zionist ants like Witty do believe the american ultra-rich zionist jews have the jewish people in mind, but what they have in mind is the nation-state game. Fortunately there will be no problem for you, Witty, because when the elite jews decide to upgrade your status from holocaust-victim-through-marriage to full-victimship (the sarmatian would say "multiple-victimship status") you will still have the opportunity to inhabit Paradise and that will be somewhere far away from America, a place you helped to destroy.
Normally I wouldn't bother, but must ask "anonymous" above exactly how Christ's crucifixion served Jewish purposes? Clever of them to have withstood almost 2,000 years of persecution, hatred, shtetls, pogroms, and inquisitions, waiting for the moment when they could ally themselves with fundamentalist yokels to fight wars with Mesopotamia and Persia.
Very clever.
(BTW, what on earth did you mean by "Waltzerian detachment?")
"Christ's crucifixion served Jewish purposes?"
I meant jewish purposes have been emulated in christianity. I said jewish community (a place where jews are isolated from us wicked ones) is a model for christian Paradise (a place for the righteous, the pure). I said the christian god does exactly what elite jews do: sacrifice the innocent. The catch here is: the christian god sacrifice his innocent son to clean the sins of humanity (of christians, in fact) while elite jews sacrifice his fellow lamb-jews to clean the sins they themselves commit. That is an elite survival strategy, to purge the simple from the community by means of sacrificing them to the gentile world who cannot abide any great number of judaics in their midst.
The christian god keeps a Paradise for christians somewhere. Elite jews nourish the jewish community needs, sinagogues were they pray under israely flags and other less savoury institutions.
The creation of Israel is the embodiment of the elite jews desire to be part of the nation-state financial framework. The holocaust victims (not you, Witty, I'm talking about the real ones) were served in the plate for zionist purposes. Now elite jews have it, a nation state wearing nuclear armour. And what have jews received as reward? A chance to show the world how corrupt a jewish mind becomes when assigned the task of protecting a Jerusalem made not of spiritual commitment, but a Jerusalem of gold.
"what on earth did you mean by 'Waltzerian detachment?'"
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/03/michael_walzer_.html
"We're like the French but unlike the French we do not include Muslims and Catholics. And we can be members of the French nation but not the same as other members of that nation."
"We need not make excuses.. We have a simple position to defend. It isn’t that hard for our neighbors to live with our differences. We are what we are and we need to make a secure place for ourselves in the world."
Could people stop with the "If jews are so smart why are (neocons/israeli foreign policy/ etc.) so stupid?" arguments already? Intelligence and wisdom are two different things, its possible to be very intelligent and still act foolishly. Murray et al. are talking about IQ not common sense.
Just to address a few specific comments:
"Someone in Israel explained to me many years ago that Jewish intelligence was not really a question of IQ: that is to say, "genetic". It's a fact that many Asians "score" quite a bit higher than Jews on IQ tests."
Your Israeli friend was wrong. Ashkenazi (the group usually being discussed when people talk about 'jewish' intelligence) have an IQ of ~115 on average, the highest IQ asian groups (i.e. Japanese, Koreans) have an average IQ of ~107.
"Huummm…if jews are smarter how come gentiles run the world for the most part while Jews have been run around the world from one place to another….oh wait, it's because Jews are hated because they killed Christ….right?…LOL"
You're joking right? How about the fact that Jews make up less than 1% of the worlds population while 'gentiles' (i.e. the rest of humanity) make up the rest.
Finally
"Arie Brand quoted: "When I came to Israel I was amazed to discover dumb Jews. In Moscow all the Jews I knew were high achievers."
"Did Philip Roth say: 'the only dumb Jews I ever met were in Israel' or 'in Israel I met only dumb Jews'."
etc.
Ashkenazim are the Jewish group that are outliers in terms of intelligence the IQ of other branches of Judaism are much closer to the mean (at least in the present day, Spanish Jews had their own golden age). The average IQ in Israel is actually somewhere in the 90's (lower than the average of America).
I can understand why this is a touchy subject. But I think people need to learn to seperate the: "if this is true won't people use it to stir up anti-semitism?" question from the question of "is this true?". A truth (uncomfortable or not) is not going to go away just because you ignore it.
Pride and racism are two different things.
Funny that the belief in racial superiority is what led Hitler and the Nazis to exterminate Jews, yet Weiss and people like him feel completely comfortable talking about their own imagined racial superiority.
I mean, come on…isn't that just a little to close for comfort for you guys?
No one can deny our Jewish achievements. However one can not deny either that Israel is not the top place to live in the World. So perhaos us Jews excell at many things but not at getting along with each other in an all-Jewish society. No one would argue most of the superindustrialized Northern Europe, Switzerland, Japan and the "Anglo saxon" countries are better places to live in terms of sound stable government, lack of extremists among the native populations (In Israel a Jewish extremist representing a number of "normal" followers, shot Rabin), people throw stones at you in certain neighborhoods for driving on Shabbat (not for forcing they to drive or for driving your car but your own car!). Economic prosperity and is also superior in those countries.
So perhaps there is more than one type of intelligence and this explains why the people of the above mentioned countries have been able to create societies which surpass Israel in a number of significant measures. It is obvious to me God chose the Jews to give practical ethics to the World. But he may have chosen others for other important things, such as how to set up and run a country. Perhaps this is why Jews have been without a country for mostr of our history, it is not our strong point. This state of affairs likely suit God´s etical and wise plan, that "no human shall feel superior to other human". Can it not even be argued the today´s that Amazon Indian or African Bushman has a way of life that may be wiser in many obvious respects to that of the superindustrialized countries? Yes, I know, as soon as they can afford refrigerators, cars, and Tvs, they will have a Walmart like the rest of us! Ufortunately, something may be our choice and yet very bad for us