The other day Saif Ammous analogized the Zionist project to a British Christian coming to the U.S. and solving the country's problems by making it Christian. Ralph Seliger then criticized the analogy. Now Ammous is responding:
Ralph Seliger is unfortunately engaging in an entirely predictable and typical Zionist debate tactic: "pretend you're not smart enough to understand the question, it'll go away.' I will nonetheless indulge him and elaborate slowly for him my argument, so that he will have a tougher time pretending not to understand it in his next reply.
America, by law, is a secular country. Its majority is Christian, but none of its laws discriminate against non-Christians. Also, it currently does none of the crazy stuff that Israel does under Zionism.
Seliger as a proud progressive surely finds this secular state of affairs in America to be good. He surely opposes any attempts to make this a Christian nation by law. He would surely oppose it if the US government banned non-Christians from buying land, or built Christian-only roads and Christian-only settlements on stolen non-Christian land. He would surely oppose it if non-Christians were forced to live behind a "security fence" with all their movements controlled by an army of teenagers.
Seliger's opposition to all of this is of course a principled progressive stance for which he deserves to be saluted. But his hypocrisy lies in his opposing all of these things in America, because he is in the non-Christian minority that would suffer under them; but supporting stuff like this in Israel, because his group has the upper-hand there.
So, my challenge to Seliger is: why exactly does he support a system inextricably built on discriminating, ethnically cleansing and disenfranchising non-Jews in Palestine, while opposing laws that discriminate against non-Christians in America? Surely, if you agree to the Zionist logic in Palestine, you can't complain if America becomes a Christian Nation and ethnically cleanses non-Christians from its land a la Israel. What's good for the gander is good for the goose.
I'll over-over-elaborate and over-over-simplify: Would Seliger support the US government using US taxpayer money to build Christian-only colonies and roads in America? Would he support banning non-Christians from owning land in America? Would he support ethnically cleansing half of America's non-Christians out of America? And if this ethnic cleansing happened, would Seliger oppose the right of these American non-Christians to return to their lands and properties because it might weaken the Christianity of the Christian nation? I would like him to answer these exact questions but after substituting "Israel" for "America" and "Jewish" for "Christian". And then to discuss the discrepancy in his answers.
Also, doesn't the fact that he is an American supporting this racism in MY country, while he wouldn't agree to it in HIS country make him feel like a racist hypocrite? He not only supports the Israeli government carrying out such actions with Israeli citizens' tax money, he also supports doing it with American citizens' tax money. It's like me paying billions to fund a Christian Nationalist militant party in America that advocates the ethnic cleansing of American non-Christians.
As for Seliger's bizarre contention that Palestinian opposition to Gun Zionism is the CAUSE of Gun Zionism, this is frankly too silly to refute. I presume Seliger also believes that the Algerian resistance to French colonialism is the cause of French colonialism. And surely, he believes that it was the Black Panthers who brought about slavery and segregation in America. And surely, he must believe it was the ANC's terrorism that was the cause of apartheid in South Africa.
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You are maliciously misrepresenting Seliger's position.
Its actually a bit sickening, and I mean that strong a word.
"but supporting stuff like this in Israel, because his group has the upper-hand there."
Is this you speaking Phil, or are you quoting someone else.
slow down a little please phil, can you make it a little simpler so even a zionist can understand you.
the nazis would be proud of these guys.
can anyone really pretend not to understand this stuff?
the nazis at nuremberg should have gotten jewish zionist lawyers to defend them, their ability to reason out the unreasonable is stupendous.
http://jewsagainstzionism.com/
Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z'L
Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z'L
Rosh Hayeshiva of Mesivta Rabbi Chaim Berlin – Kolel Gur Aryah
“Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively "rewriting" history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred. ”
Of course Seliger isn't going to respond. Or if he does, he'll do the Palin Talking Robot type of elision, repeating some irrelevant talking points.
ps to Witty: you're a clueless little racist. Like a KKK sympathizer. Of course, Zionism has done things the KKK can only dream of.
Richard, Phil said he is quoting Saif Ammous.
What is so sickening about it, and with what do you disagree?
20 years ago, on my way back from school, I asked a Jewish friend with a likud leaning to just try to put herself in the position of the palestinians. She absolutely refused to take this intellectual posture. I was taken aback: how could someone refuse to go through the elementary process of understanding the other guy's point of view? I think at this point I understood that for some, this question was beyond rationality. Or beyond the rationality I knew based on a few axioms like "all men are created equal", "Don't do to others…" and this kind of stuff. Might made right.
samuleburke-
I don't believe your quotation of Rav Hutner proves that he was anti-Zionist. I am pretty sure he was NOT anti-Zionist. I know one of his students and he is a pro-right wing, pro-settler-type. I believe he was protesting what certain SECULAR Zionist leaders were doing…there has always been a conflict between the religous community and the secular Zionist leadership…but this conflict does NOT mean the the religious (particularly the so-called "Ultra-Orthodox") are all anti-Zionist.
However, distorted, out-of-context quotations are part and parcel of the propaganda extremists like yourself spew out.
Good. I hope this will put an end to the tawdry Seliger affair.
I could never understand why Phil invited him here. Now I wonder if it was to set him up for this. If so I disapprove. I am sick of all deception.
There are no "Jewish-only" roads in Israel or Judea/Samaria. There are "Israeli" roads, but any Israeli can use them, including Muslims, Christians, Circassians, Druze and any other ethnicity that has Israeli citizenship.
Bar Kochba
But only Jews have any business on them, since Muslim, Christian, and Druze (btw, Circassians are Muslim) Israeli (i.e. Palestinian citizens of Israel) are prohibited from living — or in most cases, even visiting — the settlements. And at IDF checkpoints they are subject to being turned back or even fined as the soldiers will ask them what business they have going to the territories since they are not Jews. I've seen it happen. The nonsense that the roads are open to all is a pure fiction.
Kevin-
What you said makes no sense. I see Arab cars all the time on the roads that I travel on there. There is no way Israeli Arabs can be kept legally off these roads, especially the ones that connect major population centers.
The point that I found sickening, literally, was the willingness of PHIL (his post) to mailciously misrepresent Seliger's view.
I see the phrase "Now Ammous is responding:"
But NO QUOTES. When I see quotes, I know that it is someone else speaking. Without quotes it is Phil.
The sickening aspect is the misrepresentation of Ralph's view. He has a blog. He has a record. He even has a posted e-mail address.
Give it time. Governor Palin is probably working on it as we speak…
Bar Kochba:
Don't even try to talk to a guy like Kevin. Basically the attitude is that you only live in Israel, and your a Jew. So what the hell do you know about it.
Rabbi Shaul Brach
“Since the dawn of the Zionist movement, suffering has not ceased to exist in the world. All the warnings of the Torah have been fulfilled in their details among our People all over the world. For a believer it is no surprise that the Zionists are the same as the heretics at the time of the Destruction of the Temple. Thus, divine judgment has been unleashed on the entire world.”
Quotes from an article by Rabbi Hutner published in "The Jewish Observer", October, 1977 explaining the Holocaust:
Public Opinion vs. Truth
Before we explore the second of the new directions in detail, it is important to establish a clear distinction between any common approach to world events and daas Torah — a Torah view of the world, "Public opinion" and any but the Torah approach is by definition colored by outside forces, subjective considerations and the falsehood of secular perspective.
An example of how public opinion can be molded — indeed, warped — at the whim of powerful individuals can be taken from a study of Russian history textbooks published during the respective reigns of Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev. During each period, the textbooks hail the then-current leader to the exclusion of all his predecessors as the savior of Russia and hero of his people. Undoubtedly, "public opinion" during each period, once children's minds had been suitably molded, reflected the thinking and wishes of the state. While more subtle in form, this ability to direct public opinion exists in democratic countries as well. Thus, we already pointed out at the beginning that we must make every effort to free ourselves from the powerful grip of public opinion, and must be ever on our guard that our opinions of the true nature of world events will be shaped only by Torah views as seen through Torah eyes.
Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively "rewriting" history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.
To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.
"The Jewish Observer", October, 1977, page 7.
Tochocha vs. Specific Guilt
For other reasons, too, one must be careful of sudden and popular "awakenings" to different aspects of Jewish history, such as "Holocaust studies."Nachum Goldmann, head of the only international secular Jewish organization not directly subservient to the Jewish State, has stated that the weakening of sympathy for the State was the result of a lengthy period of time after the Holocaust having passed and the resultant forgetting by the world at large. Undoubtedly, this State, taking advantage of the arbitrary figure of thirty years, sought to reawaken interest in what it now termed the Shoah to regain some of that lost sympathy of the late 40's and 50's.
"The Jewish Observer", October, 1977, page 9.
it is starting to become evident to me that the zionist movement has created an alternate universe for their followers, a place where they create their own reality….where have i heard that before….oh yeah the neocons said they could create reality in foreign policy.
i notice that zionist become fearful of the world outside their alternate universe because they have been taught how to view the world in the way that benefits israeli zionism.
im sure it is a frightful thing to do boys and girls but fear not….
in the real world things arent as the zionist say they are…people dont really hate jews…and its really only israel they are bothered with, and only because of the real things it does, has done and plans on continnuing to do.
alice in wonderland would be proud to know there is another world for her to discover once she comes up out of her rabbit hole.
Yah sure, people don't hate Jews. It's only since 1948. Can you really say that with a straight face.
New York Times had an article on the subject of separate roads called "Palestinians fear two-tier road system" on 28th of March 2008. But, according to some of you guys posting in here this is not happening, and you are living in Israel, so you should know, and those of us who don't are simply mistaken.
Are we really to spend time proving that giraffe is a giraffe? Isn't statement from Israel's highest judicial body enough, or are they also unable to see the "Truth" and the judges somehow have been bamboozled to believe that non-Jews are not allowed to use the settlement roads in Palestine Occupied Territories. Is it worth time and effort in here, where most readers are astute enough to find their own sources?
I don't think apartheid on the ground needs any more arguments for proof of its existance – I think it is hideous, racist and repulsive.
I think I share Mr. Weiss's fascination with the power of human mind which, can hold several mutually exclusive beliefs without internal combustion.
Wife beaters that believe that they are just restoring order in their homes.
Police officers who are planting evidence, because otherwise there would be no convictions
Thiefs who believe that they deserve something more than rightful owner need it.
Men who require women to sit in the back of the buses so that they are not polluted with their company.
Politicians who cut the funding for education while sending kids to exclusive private schools.
Racism is such a belief and so is it's sister, misogyny. Its core belief:
-"The society ills are due to a group of "others", and all would be well if only…… You can take IF ONLY through all the steps starting from disfrachisement to dehuminizing to genocide to falsifying history.
Inability to accord the human point of view to those we deem "others" means that, by defintion, where those "others" are concerned, we acquire characteristics of a psychopath – with all the consequences this viewpoint entails.
Samuel,
The "rabbit hole" is the formation of a solution for Jews to centuries, and decades, and years, and hours, and minutes of persecution and suffering.
"NEVER AGAIN" is a very useful phrase, a just response to persecution.
The task for liberal Zionists is to defend our community in a manner that minimally harms others. There is NO situation where self-assertion does not affect another community at all, and certainly that is the case with Zionism.
The idiotic fantasy of Greater Israel continues harms to Palestinians. The realistic plan of secure and defined Israel does not harm.
Is this you speaking Phil, or are you quoting someone else.
oh, dear father, let this cup of sorrow pass.
I could never understand why Phil invited him here. Now I wonder if it was to set him up for this. If so I disapprove. I am sick of all deception.
Paul, lately you get on my nerves. How about taking a long walk once a day. I am told it helps against addiction and all kinds of mood problems.
Dialog is exactly what is needed.
I only wished that Said hadn't taken this bait: Saif [Ammous] is an ignoramus. But then, we are all humans. … That was the weakest part of the response, and he could have attacked it without any tit-for-tat.
It's a pity we can't elect winners in such disputes.
>> The task for liberal Zionists is to defend our community in a manner that *minimally* harms others. [Emph added.]
"Minimally", eh? How big a ship can one steer through this opening?
>> The realistic plan of secure and defined Israel does not harm.
Except there's a sign hanging on the border posts: "Arabs not welcome." Or better yet, a quota system. What's that saying? "A light unto the world?" Something like that…
everyone can see that sog is the most hateful person that posts, yet he is obsessed with how much hatred is directed at jews. interesting…
Bar Kochba:
Pray tell, what does an "Arab car" look like, that you can detect it while cruising on the settler roads? Are mizrahi cars "Arab"?
Or do you moonlight with an uzi at a checkpoint outside your settlement, double-checking the "nationality" of those who come thru? I'm certain you're very welcoming when you find one of your Arab fellow-citizens driving near your trailer-park outpost.
As a US citizen with friends on both sides of the green line, I've been in cars that have been stopped on settler roads and turned back because the driver – an Israeli citizen – was turned back for not being Jewish… The last time this happened, a soldier said my friend "had no business" to be on the road, and warned him the next time he saw him he would fine him. He said it was the law.
But hey, I'm not Jewish, I'm just American, so what the hell do I know…
I also wish that Saif hadn't grabbed the inflammatory, and instead deescalated.
But Saif is often inflammatory, unaware that it is not only young people that make social change.
I think the government should require all automobiles, trucks etc. to be "Rapture Ready". When the evangelicals get "raptured up" while driving (per John Hagee), their vehicles should automatically find a safe place to park. Perhaps 'OnStar' can be upgraded to handle this. It's only fair to those of us "left behind".
zionism does not help the jews…it has harmed them since inception, it only cares about nationhood, they have sold out human jews for the state.
all that matters is the state…they are using you and you know it but refuse to accept it, its a project pure and simple, and it has turned into an out of control power trip with noone driving the runnaway train, it has a mind of its own and exists for its own sake, reason has no place in it if it ever did in the past.
in america noone hates jews, the u.s is an equal opportunity discriminator…remember archie bunker…
the hatred that brings on serious criminal activity arises out of oppression and other things….the bolsheviks did much to inspire fear in europe among the landed powers of its day, when the communist took over germany for a fleeting moment in time after the first w.war…the kaiser fled fearing that his fate woud be the same as the romanovs, then returned once the dust had settled.
it was not for nought that jews in general were feared at that time….
cuando el rio suena, algo trae.
where there is smoke there is fire.
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