Jack Ross watches a documentary on neocons and understands his calling

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 37 Comments

Jack Ross writes:
Last night my friend Richard and I watched my DVD of Arguing The
World
, which I had not watched in almost two years.  It has been on the
basis of my knowledge of neoconservatism, which I was pleased to
realize is intact and not being sapped by my current project on the anti-Zionist American Council for Judaism, that I
often take exception to Phil Weiss's emphasis on Jewish motivation over
ideological motivation for the neocons.  But watching this film for the
first time in a long while gives me pause in that assessment.

I had known, or half remembered at least, that the film makes not one mention of Israel or Zionism,
and may not even barely acknowledge the Jewish parochial motivation for
opposing affirmative action, for example.  Indeed, you would barely
realize (well, not quite, but you get the point) from the film that its
subjects are Jewish, and that the story is about little more then a
group of 30s radicals who fell in love with America, never mind that
their abstract America was another world from the real America.

Granted,
Arguing The World is a product of the 90s, with no anticipation of how
relevant its subject would suddenly become in the next decade.  Equally
dated is the film's ultimate emphasis on a legacy in American domestic
politics.

But a few things are clearly evident from the film:
the roots of their pathologies are ultimately cultural, not
ideological, and the film does a disservice by treating ideology in the
abstract – in other words, as Richard said to me, the film would have
had a much more compelling dramatic arc if it actually took a position
of its own.

When we consider the absence of any discussion of
Zionism, there may be an either deliberate or subconscious obfuscation
of this fact, but Zionism was just another product of that scene, and
thus does one realize the real place of the radical saga of the 30s. 
Zionism was what won hearts and minds. Socialism in whatever variety
never stood a chance.  This may be little different from the triumph of
nationalism over classical social democracy everywhere else, and yet . . .

I
stand by what I have always said about the order in which Jewish
parochialism and ideology rule – yes, Israel is the royal road to
neoconservatism, but except for those who are obviously Zionists first and foremost (Abe Foxman, Marty Peretz, Ruth Wisse) they are ideologists (neocons either left or right) first and Jews of whatever stripe second.

This,
however, ignores the larger question to which Arguing The World cries
out in deafening silence – how did Judaism become so interchangeable
with secular ideology, whether socialist in days of yore (or going even
further back, to the Enlightenment) or Zionist and/or neocon in our own
time?

This is where it all comes back home for me as a writer.  Years ago I originally envisioned, following a complete history of the Socialist Party of America and a grand history of neoconservatism, going on to write an epic of classical sociology tracing the whole history of Judaism in the development of modern political philosophy
I may still do it in 15 or 20 years (and I'm certainly not writing off
the other two).  The point is, at a time when I was so narrowly focused
on the history of politics and felt deeply ambivalent at best about Judaism and Jewish identity, I understood that this was the holy grail.

And
this is why I became like a man possessed in the last year and a half
upon learning of the history of the American Council for Judaism and
the whole preceding history of Classical Reform Judaism.  You can not understand the pivotal 20th century
where it all came together without understanding Classical Reform
Judaism and why it collapsed, and in the ACJ it was nothing short of a
revelation to discover those who asked all the right questions at the
critical hour, whatever can be said of their answers.

So my half-fantasy now is that I'll be like Robert Caro, with the biography of Rabbi Elmer Berger [an ACJ leader] serving as a springboard like the Robert Moses book and then spending most of my remaining life on neoconservatism at a snail's pace a la Caro and LBJ.

37 Responses

  1. Rowan Berkeley
    January 25, 2009, 1:34 pm

    well,Jack, I'm not even Jewish, and I have only been studying this matter for ten years or so, but it is quite clear to me that US Jewish 'religious leaders' (note the term itself, redolent of internal colonialism) always saw themselves primarily as contractors to the host state, tasked with managing the Jewish public politically. This is after all how they saw themselves in their various 'old countries'. Thus, as I explain in another thread, the bourgeoisification of 'Jewish radicalism' was, as they saw it, required of them, on pain of real threats to their publics if they failed to permanently quell radicalism, and they damn well delivered, too.

  2. peters
    January 25, 2009, 1:42 pm

    can someone tranlate this article for the non-jewish laymen here? i don't understand a word.

  3. delia
    January 25, 2009, 2:15 pm

    ditto

  4. Rowan Berkeley
    January 25, 2009, 2:46 pm

    By 'Classical Reform Judaism' (what a mouthful!) he means the style of reform judaism established by Abraham Geiger and his followers in Germany in the mid 19th C., which incidentally well illustrates my point about religious leaders being contractors to the host state.
    link to en.wikipedia.org

  5. Ed
    January 25, 2009, 2:49 pm

    Jack Ross: "[the film's] subjects are Jewish, and [the story} is about little more then a group of 30s radicals who fell in love with America, never mind that their abstract America was another world from the real America…the roots of their pathologies are ultimately cultural, not ideological,… except for those who are obviously Zionists first and foremost (Abe Foxman, Marty Peretz, Ruth Wisse) they are ideologists (neocons either left or right) first and Jews of whatever stripe second."

    If the roots of their pathologies are cultural (ie religious, Jewish ethnographic) doesn’t that imply that their motives are the "preservation" (or from my perspective, the "supremacy") of Judaism? Certain Jews and gentiles may differ with their methods and mentality, but it is pretty clear that they believe Jews are supreme beings and should be in a supreme potion over the rest of humanity (if they truly even regard non-Jews as fully human), which is totally consistent with a certain and seemingly not-uncommon interpretation of "chosen" doctrine.

  6. Rowan Berkeley
    January 25, 2009, 2:51 pm

    Actually, the reason it failed in the USA is not hard to seek: it failed because of the flood of eastern european jewish immigrants to the US, who had no desire to be condescended to in the new country by germans in the same way they had been condescended to (when not actually expelled) by them in germany.

  7. Dan Kelly
    January 25, 2009, 2:52 pm

    I stand by what I have always said about the order in which Jewish parochialism and ideology rule – yes, Israel is the royal road to neoconservatism, but except for those who are obviously Zionists first and foremost (Abe Foxman, Marty Peretz, Ruth Wisse) they are ideologists (neocons either left or right) first and Jews of whatever stripe second.

    So Ricahrd Perle, Douglas Feith, et al were "ideologists" first and "Jews" second when they wrote a planning paper for the Israeli government that called for a radical remaking of the Middle East in Israel's (and Israel's alone) interest? Maybe they were Jews first when the wrote it and neoconservative ideologists when they put it to action from their high posts in the American government?

    Gee, this is fun. Let's debate this some more. Meanwhile, Palestinians burn.

  8. citizen
    January 25, 2009, 3:14 pm

    Dan Kelly makes sense to me. While the Pals work on their fate, here's a pretty instructive article on classical reform judaism in the USA. It centers around a key figure: link to beth-elsa.org

  9. Rowan Berkeley
    January 25, 2009, 3:21 pm

    Wise is a good example of the germanocentricity of Reform. It says there, He edited two publications in which he articulated his revolutionary views. One was the English-language American Israelite, which is still published in Cincinnati today. He also edited Die Deborah, which he wrote in German.

    Nothing in yiddish. think about that.

  10. Rowan Berkeley
    January 25, 2009, 3:46 pm

    It is relevant, Dan, but not immediately so. It illustrates the unwanted nature of the east european jews. Eventually, only two things could be done with them in the USA: either allow them to become a solid body of revolutionary leftists, or spend as much money as necessary to seduce them into a romanticised version of orthodox judaism. Those who fell in between these categories, the 'liberal' petit-bourgeois asimilationists, were and are of negligible weight, except as camouflage of course.

  11. citizen
    January 25, 2009, 4:42 pm

    "…seduce them into a romanticised version of orthodox judaism."

    Damn, that's good!

  12. David F.
    January 25, 2009, 5:39 pm

    "And this is why I became like a man possessed in the last year and a half upon learning of the history of the American Council for Judaism and the whole preceding history of Classical Reform Judaism. You can not understand the pivotal 20th century where it all came together without understanding Classical Reform Judaism and why it collapsed, and in the ACJ it was nothing short of a revelation to discover those who asked all the right questions at the critical hour, whatever can be said of their answers."

    This is music to my ears. I attend one of the few Classical Reform synagogues in the US, and the founding philosophy (which is described very well on the ACJ website) has been invaluable in helping me to understand how it is possible to be assimilationist without ceasing to be Jewish.

    I have been surprised that Phil has not discussed this topic more often.

    Taking the religious heritage of Judaism seriously while attempting to adapt it to changing times and reconcile it to universal standard of morality is a very difficult path, and there is no easy solution. It is however a Jewish path, and a far more rewarding one then simply replacing God and Torah with ethnic chauvanism or secular ideologies.

  13. LeaNder
    January 25, 2009, 5:49 pm

    can someone tranlate this article for the non-jewish laymen here? i don't understand a word.

    peters, I agree, I think his head spins. His aim is much too big. That's dangerous. He has to shift towards a step by step, concentrate move slowly. Block things out. I know the phenomenon when I try to find threads in something much too complex to fit and that ultimately lead further and further away into a sea of things to disover.

    Shorter sentences would help, to clear the mind. What is related to what? E.g. I had to read the sentence below twice and am still not sure, if I understand:

    When we consider the absence of any discussion of Zionism, there may be an either deliberate or subconscious obfuscation of this fact, but Zionism was just another product of that scene, and thus does one realize the real place of the radical saga of the 30s.

    Zionism was just another product of "just another that scene"? That scene? The New York 30s? Or more a product of the European scene?

    This drew my attention:

    Years ago I originally envisioned, following a complete history of the Socialist Party of America and a grand history of neoconservatism, going on to write an epic of classical sociology tracing the whole history of Judaism in the development of modern political philosophy.

    Obviously, since the 19th century political sciences or philosophy is where I have ended up myself recently. The genesis of Reform, it feels, must be related to this line of thought. …

  14. LeaNder
    January 25, 2009, 5:51 pm

    "just another product of that scene"

  15. peters
    January 25, 2009, 6:59 pm

    "Taking the religious heritage of Judaism seriously while attempting to adapt it to changing times and reconcile it to universal standard of morality is a very difficult path, and there is no easy solution. "

    why is this so please?

  16. David Green
    January 25, 2009, 7:55 pm

    I find these issues fascinating, although I question their practicality in relation to the movement that inspires this blog–how to get the Palestinians their rights.

    I recommend Peter Steinfels original book on the neoconservatives, to get a grounding in the essentially domestic origins of their dissent. I recommend reading Chomsky's chapter in Middle East Illusion, reprinted from Peace in the Middle East?, regarding the treatment of those Jews who criticized Israel after 1967 (basically, Chomsky and I.F. Stone). I recommend whatever source might give one a feeling for the animosity and condescension that sociologists of the youth rebellion like Seymour Martin Lipsett and Nathan Glazer had for their subjects. All this might lead to an appreciation of how Jewish identity emerged in deracinated Jews in response to the rise of Black Power, alleged black anti-semitism, a youth movement partly led by red diaper babies, the persistence of anti-communism among socialist or formerly socialist Jews like Irving Howe, and support for Israel as a model for doing to the Arabs what the U.S. couldn't do to Ho Chi Minh.

    In short, I agree with Finkelstein that Zionism and Israel were of no use to neocons until they could be integrated into American anti-communism and domestic reactionism against the Civil Rights movement and academic radicalism, such as it was.

    Elmer Berger is a find and a curiosity, especially his letters collected in Who Knows Better Must Say So! regarding Jews in the Arab world, especially Iraq. Nevertheless, he was bascially a Republican. Again, the issue of practicality. Ideology needs to be challenged by critique, and I'm not sure how far ethical Judaism gets one in that endeavor, although I would be all for it if I felt a need to be religiously rather than culturally identified.

  17. peters
    January 25, 2009, 9:54 pm

    "if I felt a need to be religiously rather than culturally identified."

    why do you have a need to be identified at all?

  18. Ed
    January 25, 2009, 10:18 pm

    @ David Green: "Zionism and Israel were of no use to neocons until they could be integrated into American anti-communism and domestic reactionism against the Civil Rights movement and academic radicalism, such as it was."

    I view this as Christian-imperialist-string-puller theory designed to obfuscate Zionist-string-puller theory. In fact, I wonder if Finkelstein really even believes it himself anymore.

    Here is how I view the modern Jewish-ideologue chronicle: They started as Mensheviks and later Bolsheviks, primarily to gain power but also in reaction to anti-semitism, but deep down maintained their Jewish identity and cohesiveness. They exercised power ruthlessly in the Soviet Union/block countries, but eventually their Jewish supremacist beliefs came into conflict with Leftist racial and anti-religious doctrine, and many found their way to America and Israel. In proudly Jewish Israel, racialism developed fairly quickly and openly, whereas in America due to their minority status and to race politics, they had to mask their racialism, hence neconservatism, which in addition to being Jewish-supremacist, also actually encourages large scale non-European immigration to cover its own racism, but also as a way of watering down the white Christian majority, which has historically always been the most ruthless and effective opponent of organized Jewry.

    Neocon anti-communism was only the result of Leftism forcing Jewry to abide by Leftist doctrine, and when Jewry refused and was punished, those that were to pioneer Neconservatism turned on Communism angrily. (Some Leftists are engaged in a similar battle of wills with organized Jewry again today). The Jewish ideologues would have happily stayed with murderous Communism and continued to wield their power ruthlessly and Jewish-networked their way into control of the Communist Leviathan had they only been given a pass on the forced melting-pot Leftist racial ideals, (as they mostly have by the half-ass Left in America).

    As far as "civil rights" goes, as exercised by most components of organized Jewry, it's just another ploy to gain power, pit competing races against each other at its own behest in a divide-and-conquer strategy, cover its Jewish-supremacist tracks, and deftly angle their way to the top. Abe Foxman's ADL, for example, describes itself as a "civil rights" organization. We all know its just a Zionist/Jewish supremacist front.

  19. Rowan Berkeley
    January 26, 2009, 12:28 am

    Taking the religious heritage of Judaism seriously while attempting to adapt it to changing times and reconcile it to universal standard of morality is a very difficult path, and there is no easy solution.

    I think it's code for, you have to sell out.

  20. peters
    January 26, 2009, 7:06 am

    but why is it hard to adapt judaism to a universal moral code? i can't even believe he admitted to this…
    is he admitting that judaism is not compatible to a universal moral code?

    sell out or sell your soul to get land?

  21. Rowan Berkeley
    January 26, 2009, 7:35 am

    Judaism as we know it was created in the Persian period as rationale for a colonialisation project in Palestine which the Persians wanted to beef up. There appears to have been little ethnic relationship between the supposed 'returning exiles' (with whom the Jewish bible ends) and the then inhabitants of Palestine. This suggests, not (as the zionists and most other Jews would have it) that during the 'exile' Palestine had filled up in its usual irritating way with 'Arabs', but that the supposed 'returning exiles' were quite possibly not of what we now call 'Jewish' ethnicity at all, but were just convenient bearers of a typical Persian imperial 'restoration of the peoples' myth, a myth that Persia used as Babylon had done before it to justify large forced migrations in a number of places.

  22. LeaNder
    January 26, 2009, 7:41 am

    I view this as Christian-imperialist-string-puller theory designed to obfuscate Zionist-string-puller theory. In fact, I wonder if Finkelstein really even believes it himself anymore.

    The deep running aversion for the counter-culture of the sixties left traces on the net, when I still looked into the neoconservatives. There was an essay by Irving Kristol on AEI that has gone by now drawing my attention. As they seem to have been a big influence in the culture wars.

    The counter-culture is for them–as it may be for you–dangerous, since it is perceived it as a hedonistic force. Masses that are hard to control. Historically the best to control was religion. Christian religion. It's basic tool to instill fear and offer life after dead, for all the toil.

    In any case religion plays no doubt an important role in the intellectual universe. The question is how is it modified to serve times and authoritarian visions? See e.g.

    Mark Gerson's book The Neoconservative Vision. From the Cold War to the Culture Wars. It has a chapter on religion, I always wanted to look closer at. That is at the theologians mentioned.

    And why, if their theories wouldn't touch on his own field, has a theologian like Garry Dorrien
    shown such a deep interest in the neocons? Or the latest, which I don't know.

    Maybe Gorrien knows Jewish colleagues who could help to trace the neocon influences in the "Rabbinic universe"?

    Religion is no doubt an important tool for them to control the masses. The antidote in the authoritarians tool box seem to have been religion for quite some time. For the neoconservatives its the Judeo-Christian tradition. The orderly controlled body of believers adhering to a fixed set of rules. …

    Michael Lind:

    For the neoconservatives, religion is an instrument of promoting morality. Religion becomes what Plato called a noble lie. It is a myth which is told to the majority of the society by the philosophical elite in order to ensure social order…

    Would Ed's "Christian America" not ultimately offer a similar set of tools in population control?

  23. LeaNder
    January 26, 2009, 7:50 am

    Sorry, I am too rash. So my too long reply is spread with half-finished sentences, spelling and punctuation erors. As the first two passages would have benefited from shortening, precision. I wish I could get that preview button back!!!

    But to conceive the counter-culture only as a mass of hedonist individuals, is a perspective that denies to recognize legitimate demands in the movement.

  24. LeaNder
    January 26, 2009, 8:05 am

    This seems important to make more clear:

    In any case religion plays no doubt an important role in their intellectual universe. The question is how is it modified to serve their authoritarian visions?

    The main point is: As the 19th century elites, their double standards and ideas to control e.g. the German 19th century: Forth Estate: the working class the elites themselves are not subjected to the religious rules.

  25. LeaNder
    January 26, 2009, 8:42 am

    but why is it hard to adapt judaism to a universal moral code? i can't even believe he admitted to this…
    is he admitting that judaism is not compatible to a universal moral code?

    sell out or sell your soul to get land?

    peters, I am not sure if I understand your problem, and obviously I cannot speak for others. But this is how I see it:

    But it's not only hard to adjust Judaism to "a universal" moral code. I am no specialist in Judaism, but strictly it is a problem you will find in all monotheist religions and there are much more religions than that: e.g. Hindu, Buddhist … The "universal moral code" (international law) is a moral code secular; e.g. International Law.

    Secular laws are adjusted to changing times. That is, when the collective groups develop a different perception concerning rights and wrongs. The 18th century English saw a huge law reform. Many a delict's penalty before punished with dead was modified.

    If you consider the religious laws, as fundamentalists do, as the words of god, they are strictly unchangeable. That is no matter how much the world changes, they must always be adhered to exactly the way they were written down. Now consider that there surely was a huge amount of discussion over each specific law over the ages, how they have to be interpreted, explained, adhered to. As there surely were different traditions in Jewish religious thought. This somehow resembles the secular developments and changes in laws.

    So far we only had attempts to define something like the basics of the universally respected religious laws. The moral code is historically, essentially religious (with all the accompanying double standards) and there are many approaches to deal with the same human topics, this is not such an easy affair.

    What do you consider the universal moral code? In the West it is post enlightenment humanitarianism. … What is it in other parts of the world?

  26. David Green
    January 26, 2009, 9:38 am

    Religion is of no use to Jewish neocons. Anti-communism/Israel gave them a way to incorporate themselves into Judeo-Christianity as a political/cultural clash of civilizations identifier. It's obviously not of any use to Chomsky, Finkelstein, etc.; nor do I see it as much practical value in the Brit Tzedek vein; but they're entitled to frame their opposition to Israel in whatever way works for them, of course.

  27. Ed
    January 26, 2009, 11:15 am

    @DG: "Religion is of no use to Jewish neocons."

    By your standard, religion is of no use to the Christian imperialists, either, or most of the Christian Zionists.

    Judeophiles on the Left want to pick and choose who they categorize as a Jew according to their own political needs, whereas in the case of Christians, they want to glom them all together as bigots.

    This is just another variation of Jewish supremacy — let's call it the "sacred Jews are an exception to our anti-religious/anti-racialist existential standards" variation.

    There has been a strong streak of Jewish supremacy on the Left since Jews were so predominant in early Communism, and the Jewish supremacist type of Leftist and their Judeophile useful idiots (LeaNder is a contemporary example of the latter) may well be a major reason Communism mutated into an utterly murderous enterprise, as well as the source of its murderous anti-Christianity.

    There are huge numbers of anti-Christian, pro-Zionist Judeophiles in the Democratic Party, as well as anti-Christian, Zionist-neutral Judeophiles.

    Apparently for many on the Left, religion is always the opiate of the masses — except when it’s Judaism.

  28. Ed
    January 26, 2009, 11:30 am

    LeaNder, I have never advocated a "Christian America," I have advocated a free-will libertarian America (consistent with the beliefs of America's Founders) where people are at liberty to choose their own value systems as opposed to being socially engineered and manipulated in this direction or that by the Big Government State working in conjunction with its authoritarian, control-freak partners — be they Leftists, Neocons, Neolibs or Zionist (both Christian and Jewish).

    I would anticipate (but not presume) that Christianity would re-grow organically under such conditions, (but I may be wrong about that). But your type, which has been thoroughly indoctrinated into anti-Christianity (in part by Jewish supremacists) is scared to death of true freedom for that very reason.

    You have no faith in anything except the heavy hand of government and the high priests of the Left, many of who are Judeophiles and/or Jewish supremacists.

  29. citizen
    January 26, 2009, 11:38 am

    Ed has a good grasp. The responders so far simply don't understand what he is driving at, except for David Green. Peters, especially, please reread Ed and Green again. There is a distinct difference between universal morality and Jewish morality. Jews have been fighting amongst themselves about this since especially the 19th Century. In a short-hand way, this long term battle for hearts and minds is encapsulated in the official designation of Israel as a "Jewish democratic nation."

    Look at the history of classical reform Judiasm. That's only a small part of the on-going problem. Multiply it many times since the installation of the state of Israel in 1948.

    Another key factor in the mess is the very notion of assimilation, which use to be a key criteria for being an American, a new propositional citizen based not on race, creed, color, etc. Rather merely on the notion based on "natural law" that all men were created equal, etc…

  30. LeaNder
    January 26, 2009, 1:32 pm

    which has been thoroughly indoctrinated into anti-Christianity (in part by Jewish supremacists) is scared to death of true freedom for that very reason.

    You are dead wrong, concerning my person. Your ideological shutters blind you. I don't fit into your leftist anti-Christian box. I consider it part of my tradition, it doesn't get more true, if you keep repeating it. Neither am I a feminist, no matter how often you repeat it. I am only aware–as many others–of essentially similar patterns in women's history and other groups, that is in misogynic, anti-gay, anti-x line of thought. Since I am at least as strongly a liberal, just not a liberal 19century style, in many cases much more than left, as some of my friend could easily assure you. And "liberal" doen't equal progressives in my political Old Europe universe. But I know you love fast and easy boxes to put people in that dare to object to your simplifications.

    Peters, especially, please reread Ed and Green again.

    Carefully controlling others to not open up for the perceived enemy. Please avoid paying attention LeaNder, you should add. She has been outed as both a Nazi (no need really, since she is German) and a philosemite. Hopefully you manage to wrap your head around that. Who is the much mentioned "control freak", which of course is me, the "left fascist".

    I doubt David Green and Ed agree completely. Green, although he rarely surfaces here, seems to be one of the more interesting voices on this blog. But he may well be right, that religion does not matter much to them.

    What would Damon Linker say to this statement?

  31. David Green
    January 26, 2009, 2:48 pm

    "I doubt David Green and Ed agree completely."

    Please remove all doubt. I would qualify my cynicism, however, by referring to born-agains like Elliott Abrams, although I don't think he's at all typical. Neoconservatism and Zionism (as justification for U.S. foreign policy) have been ideological vehicles for ethnic assimilation into the notion of American exceptionalism. BEING Jewish, with its implied reference to suffering, the Holocaust, subsequent "toughness", etc. is central; genuflection to religious PRACTICE or BELIEF is perfunctory.

  32. David F.
    January 26, 2009, 6:34 pm

    "So far we only had attempts to define something like the basics of the universally respected religious laws. The moral code is historically, essentially religious (with all the accompanying double standards) and there are many approaches to deal with the same human topics, this is not such an easy affair."

    Thanks for elaborating on the point I was trying to make.

    ***

    A serious problem with Zionism is that while many Zionists are not religious, they seem to have completely assimilated the paranoia and moral particularism of ultra-orthodox theology.

    They believe the whole world is their enemy (Esau hates Jacob) and is plotting their destruction. Palestinians are halachic non-entities–they simply don't register on the moral radar–except as a threat. Hitler (Amalek) perpetually reincarnates, as Saddam, now Ahmadinijad, and any concession is a step towards another Holocaust. Under these circumstances, international law is simply yet another threat to be surmounted.

    You can get away with this moral insanity in a ghetto. On the world stage, it is a path to ruin.

  33. peters
    January 27, 2009, 12:03 am

    we have been forced to describe america as a judeo-christian society with judeo-christian moral values. now i hear a jew say that judaism is not compatible with universal moral values. i found it very interesting to hear that said . i have sort of noticed that functionally it is not, but perhaps thought that in it's ideal state it could be called a world religion, a universal religion. i know a scholar a few years ago got into a lot of hot water for saying judaism was not a world
    religion. so in other words, jewish morals are only suited to jews.
    i am not sure what i was supposed to learn from ed or david green. david speaks in code as far as i am concerned. neither addressed my question.
    granted my question was sort of rhetorical but i would have appreciated some feedback.

  34. LeaNder
    January 27, 2009, 11:50 am

    but why is it hard to adapt judaism to a universal moral code? i can't even believe he admitted to this…
    is he admitting that judaism is not compatible to a universal moral code?

    The UN once tried to arrive at a universal moral code and failed. It simply wasn't possible considering all the diverse religions and fusion religions. Just look at the complexity on Indian ground. What about Scientology? …

    The point is there is no universal moral code. Morals are based on a consent about right or wrongs among a specific group of people. As it's Etymology shows that it is connected with costums:

    ETYMOLOGY:
    Middle English, from Old French, from Latin mrlis, from ms , mr-, custom; see m- 1 in Indo-European roots.

    Secular laws, I tried to tell you above, change over time. As customs change. But these customs are based both on secular tales as on "religious tales", both shape our customs.

    The big difference is that one of these customs (the religious ones) are considered more or less sacred, that is: God's word. Or e.g. Buddha's word, originally a man, who turned god due to righteous living.

    I don't remember the specific UN project mentioned above very well, I only learned about it since a member of an obscure Indian sect once gave my a book on an art project produced in this context. And I do not have it any more. Too much books already so I have to be slightly selective.

    But it may well have been connected to
    Hans Küng

    In the early 1990s Küng initiated a project called Weltethos (Global Ethic), which is an attempt at describing what the world religions have in common (rather than what separates them) and at drawing up a minimal code of rules of behaviour everyone can accept. His vision of a global ethic was embodied in the document for which he wrote the initial draft, Towards a Global Ethic: An Initial Declaration. This Declaration was signed at the 1993 Parliament of the World's Religions by many religious and spiritual leaders from around the world. Later Küng's project would culminate into the UN's Dialogue Among Civilizations to which Küng was assigned as one of 19 "eminent persons." Even though it was completed shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11 (in September 2001), there was no coverage in the U.S. media, something about which Küng complained.[3][4][5]

    Hans Küng's Global Ethics Foundation

    A German scholar of Ancient Egypt, Jan Assmann, I highly respect and who is a frequent guest in the Jesuit academy here in Cologne onces confronted us with one essential that according to him all monotheist religions share:

    1) to help the poor, sick, helpless
    2) to fight the Other

    One, he told us, we can never ever give up, the second has to be watched carefully.

    And since customs can both be secular and religious–e.g. what do you choose for breakfast compared to e.g. an African–the better word in the context you are trying to understand, may well be ethics.

    Personal ethics may help a person to swim against the stream of customs in his community, like e.g. Phil, which gets us into an even more complex philosophical field.

    But, please note, I am not out to convince anybody. I am aware that Ed's tale in its coherence has a strong attraction, it gives a fast an easy explanation to a complex world, in which Israel is more and more driving herself in a corner, for all of us to watch.

    In closing a tiny associative detail: Here you have the Theocon's supporting the neocons with Christian War Ethics

    ************************************

    Concerning the land issue, consider humans remain humans, there is always the option of look for scriptures that seem to justify your actions. Not especially new under the sun.

  35. LeaNder
    January 27, 2009, 12:26 pm

    one error jus caught my attention: …the option to look for…

    Final note to peters:

    As in Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism holds that contemporary Western secular morality has precedence over Jewish law and theology.

    ****************************************

    "I doubt David Green and Ed agree completely."

    Please remove all doubt.

    Ambiguous reply, David, if I remove doubt I am left with you and Ed agreeing completely.

    Well your responses still do not feel as if you were completely attracted to Ed's larger tale versus e.g. Phil's tale.

    ***************************************

    David F. I would be interested in the link you mentioned above.

    the founding philosophy (which is described very well on the ACJ website)

    In any case you should forward it to Phil, for his assimilationist project.

    ***************************************

  36. David F.
    January 27, 2009, 7:18 pm

    Wonderful posts, LeaNder, thanks.

    That link is:

    link to acjna.org

  37. LeaNder
    January 28, 2009, 9:30 am

    Thanks, they have selected Phil's AIPAC article. Good sign.

    This is the precise link you have in mind?

    No need to answer.I think Phil is aware of this. But has many questions concerning the blurring of boundaries between religion – nation – politics – psychology. Jack Ross may have.

    Concerning the post. I was a bit wondering, why it took me so long to get to the core of peters question. But occasionally I get caught up in group dynamics against my will and mostly they blur vision. As in this thread, were chris berel's biased response to the WP article seems to have raised my adrenalin to a fighting level.

    It was a pleasure "to meet you".

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