(Graffiti left by Israeli soldiers in a house in Al-Zeytoun from the recent war in Gaza. Photo: Rose Mishaan)
Yesterday the LA Times ran an article by Judea Pearl entitled "Is anti-Zionism hate?" to go along side Ben Ehrenreich's blockbuster anti-Zionist op-ed "Zionism is the problem." Gabriel over at Jews sans frontieres offers a great rejoinder to most of Pearl's arguments. I wanted to take on just one.
In his article Pearl writes:
Anti-Zionism rejects the very notion that Jews
are a nation — a collective bonded by a common history — and,
accordingly, denies Jews the right to self-determination in their
historical birthplace. It seeks the dismantling of the Jewish
nation-state: Israel.Anti-Zionism earns its discriminatory character
by denying the Jewish people what it grants to other historically
bonded collectives (e.g. French, Spanish, Palestinians), namely, the
right to nationhood, self-determination and legitimate coexistence with
other indigenous claimants.Anti-Semitism rejects Jews as equal
members of the human race; anti-Zionism rejects Israel as an equal
member in the family of nations.
My first response to this was that my historical birthplace is Philadelphia and not Israel. Then I thought about Pearl's claim that anti-Zionists are denying Israel's rightful place in the "family of nations" where they can exercise "the
right to nationhood, self-determination and legitimate coexistence with
other indigenous claimants." To this, I would only ask Pearl to respond to the photo above. What about this photo says "legitimate coexistence with
other indigenous claimants"?
Earlier in his article Pearl tries to claim the two-state solution as the vision of Zionism. That may have been possible at one point but no longer. Revisionist Zionism has become the dominant strand of Zionist thinking. It is doctrinally opposed to a just two-state solution and instead sees endless conflict as the only future with the "indigenous claimants" of Palestine. The war in Gaza, and the ongoing siege, is just the latest example of this militaristic and racist mindset.
The war in Gaza has made it clear to more and more people that it is not
possible for Zionism to legitimately coexist with Palestinians. It has opened space for the LA Times to run articles like Ehrenreich's and led many more people to ask the same questions he's asking. In the end, the irony is that Israel is providing the world all the evidence it needs to question Israel's place in the "family of nations." Anti-Zionists are simply connecting the dots.
Michael,
From your response, if you looked at your actual state of mind, I expect that you would find something that resembles "hate" in there, even if it is rationally traced to Israeli behaviors and ideology that conflict with the idea of a humane form of Zionism (to put it mildly).
The presentation that I went to yesterday by "Combatants for Peace" indicated that your comment, "The war in Gaza has made it clear to more and more people that it is not possible for Zionism to legitimately coexist with Palestinians." is false.
I contest that your invocation that the collective Jewish people are cruel, is the oppossite of what makes EITHER a single-state or two-state solution feasible.
Live and let live is the sentiment that must evolve there. And, that emerges from a radical change in consciousness for Zionists hating and/or ignoring the other, AND a radical change in consciousness for Palestinian nationalist hating the other, AND a radical change in consciousness for Palestinian and/or Israeli solidarity hating the other.
If the standard of what we do as adolescents, is the summary of our lives, that there is no change possible, then why live even to 30?
The beginning is only the beginning. The MOST that an effective dissenter can accomplish is to make the next mature step possible.
Sorry, that was to Adam.
Zionism is a manifestation not of Judaism, but of Jewish cultism. So it should be viewed not as a form of Jewish sovereignty, but rather as a form of Jewish-cultist sovereignty. This is why Jewish cultists are likely to view anti-Zionism as hate, but normal Jews are not.
Basically, Adam has intimated that the palestinians are too filled with hatred to exist with anyone but themselves, which may be why he seeks to make Israel Judenrein, just as the palestinians insisted that Transjordan be judenrein, and how they made jerusalem judenrein.
David P. Goldman Writes in First Things:
http://www.firstthings.com/blog/2009/03/13/a-turning-point-in-catholic-jewish-relations/
@Chris: who, after 60 years of Zionuttery, can still believe that its goal wasn't to control all of Palestine, right from the word Go?
1967 wasn't a 'pre-emptive war', it was one of conquest. Today Zionism is so entrenched and so much of Palestine has been conquered that they don't feel the need to pay lip service to the TSS anymore. Livni can comfortably 'retire' to the opposition and breathe a sigh of relief: when Project Eretz Yisrael is complete, she'll be able to claim she was against it ('but they didn't want me in government'), all the while reaping the benefits from the expansion.Mark my words, he woman will become FM one day, probably when the place has become the Apartheid state of the ME.
Was it Hamas that caused just about every single Israeli government to expand the settlements? Was it the PLO? The Arabs? Iraq? Iran? The US? Just a few Jewish zealots?
Even you know it wasn't like that…
The last time the world, in the form of state or group actions and UN and other international bodies allowed somebody to simply defy borders and/or take land, was the mid-1970s–with one exception: Israel's
settlements, which have been allowed de facto though de jure announcements and promises have all weighed in against that theft and occupation. What excuse does Israel have that is not based on Zionism?
What do the French and Spanish regimes for example do in terms of all their citizens that is the same as what Israel does?
Now, let us watch as the Zio-caine takes effect. Remember, grandiosity alternating with paranoia, and a steady coarsening of morals, along with increased excitement and heart-rate. If they can get enough, a complete fantasy of Jewish potency and omnipotence over time, space and history occurs. Intervention is indicated, but is usually refused.
To avoid Hasbara hysteria, stick to the four basics of Israel apologetics:
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html
Make it easy on yourselves, and avoid those embarrassing impasses.
What other nation has a broad right of eternal return comparable to Israel? What other nation so creates a dual loyalty around the world, within every nation that has jewish citizens? Exactly who discriminates here?
Ooops: "the woman" of course, not "he woman". My bad…
"conflict with the idea of a humane form of Zionism (to put it mildly)."
Richard, that "humane form of Zionism" has a distinct resemblance to "Saddam's WMD", you know? Where the hell is it? If you got it, man, put it out there! It could help! What the hell are you waiting for?
At the end of an interview of last year, historian Ilan Pappé said:
"There is no chance for peace in the near future because the conditions for it are very fundamental changes in the reality, which take time. Israel has to be de-Zionized before peace is possible, and peace has to include the return of the Palestinian refugees, otherwise it would be a futile exercise. However, one can still hope that first from the outside, through pressure, sanctions etc. and then from the inside, led by the growing number of young Israeli activists who are getting organized and effective, new energies would come to allow this transformation to take place. I think it will happen, it is hard to say when, but only working for it can bring it about."
The de-Zionization program is only just starting. I doubt we'll see much action with respect to reparations for a long long time. Certainly, we won't see any change in US foreign policy for at least the next 4 years. But maybe Obama will get brave after he's re-elected and get tough with Israel–that is, if the Lobby doesn't torpedo his 2012 campaign.
Lots of "maybe"s, lots of "if"s–I am not hopeful.
From Chris's Stools freudian projection archives:
- George Washington University officials said a Jewish student who
complained about swastikas showing up on her door put them there herself. link to groups.google.com
/>
There was no 'the Jews' at the time of the Romans (who in any case did not in fact expel the inhabitants, as Joachim will confirm). The only basis for the claim of continuity is that the official J'lem cult used approximately — very approximately — the same Tanach (i.e. jewish bible), but it is unhistorical and typically rabbinical, really, to claim a continuity of population based solely on this. One might as well say the Mormons are a nation because they all — theoretically — adhere to the 'Book of Mormon'.
Adam -
The grafitti shown above is anonymous. It is not clear who the author is or why it was written, but it does not have the stamp of the Israeli Government. The anti-Jewish hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, et al is ever-present in the Arab/Farsi media and children's textbooks and the governments of the mid-East. The government of Israel and Zionism do not preach "Death to Arabs" like many Imams in Gaza preach "Death to Jews".
Anti-Zionism is clearly racist. Zionism is the belief that Jews can have a self-determinative state in the historical homeland of the Jews. You may have a disagreement with Yisrael Beitanu about how it views the situation, but anti-Zionism drags in anti-Kadima, anti-Labor and anti-Jew ideology. Zionism is a core belief of Jews – every major text of the Jewish civilization focuses on the land of Israel as the place for the nation of Israel.
The fact that a huge proportion of the comments to your posts are clearly anti-Jewish and full of hatred towards Israelis is evidence of the types you attract with your statements.
Given the furious belief by Hamas-supporters that Israel and Zionism have no right to exist – you lend credence to the opposite idea, that Palestinians have no right to live anyplace but in Egypt and Arabia, whence they came. You portray the Jews as interlopers in the area – rather than original natives, displaced by invaders (including those from the Arabian peninsula nearby and Crusaders from Europe). You also ignore the land purchases and settlements that occurred in the late 1800's and onwards in an area that was not governed by any "Palestinian".
In this debate, you are forcing people to pick a side between Jews and Palestinians. Many choose the side that has the more liberal society, with homosexual rights, women's rights, religious rights, free speech rights, etc.
You feel you are a Philly Jew and have no connection to other Jews. Fine. But that makes you a very tenuous Jew, a "bloodline" Jew with no real Jewish culture to speak of other than a like of bagels and a small sense of social justice for others.
The real purpose of anti-Zionism is the eradication and marginalization of the Jews.
What exactly about the Hamas and Fatah ideology and culture appeals to you? Is it the honor killings? The rampant homophobia? The subjugation of women? The legal practice of polygamy?
Finally, the war in Gaza was not prosecuted in a vacuum. For you to put forth that it was anything other than a response to constant bombing of Israeli towns and the increased arming of Gaza for violence against Israel is a sham, a big lie. And your argument that Zionism is incompatible with Arabs living peacefully in Gaza and the West Bank can easily, and rightfully, be turned on its head. If the Gaza War means that Zion should be eradicated, then the bombings from Gaza mean that Gaza can be eradicated. This is a simplistic, unrealistic and dehumanizing view of the world – and it only works if you favor Palestinians over Jews. That's your prerogative – but the denial of Jewish self-determination (in favor of identification with a group called Palestinians who are culturally, linguistically and ethnically indistinct from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians) is racist, pure and simple.
"The war in Gaza has made it clear to more and more people that it is not possible for Zionism to legitimately coexist with Palestinians."
"I contest that your invocation that the collective Jewish people are cruel,"
Richard Witty
This is exactly what I mean. How many times, since this all started, has Mr. Witty been told, patiently, lovingly, that "Zionism" does not conflate with "the collective Jewish people". It doesn't even matter how many times Jews tell him that. Nope, he gets a lione or two up his nose, and he's off on the same old jag.
He's hoping he can win by simply exhausting everyone else, and being left in possession of the field. I don't think that ius going to happen any more, Richard. The world, and America, has seen too much.
From Chris's Stools freudian projection archives:
- George Washington University officials said a Jewish student who
complained about swastikas showing up on her door put them there herself.
"The real purpose of anti-Zionism is the eradication and marginalization of the Jews."
Such childishness!
harcourt's humanists:
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0424-03.htm
"Finally, the war in Gaza was not prosecuted in a vacuum. For you to put forth that it was anything other than a response to constant bombing of Israeli towns and the increased arming of Gaza for violence against Israel is a sham, a big lie."
No harcourt—YOU'RE the sham!!!
Sorry—we have it straight from the mouths of the freaks who FOUNDED your hebraic dung heap in statement after statement after statement: WE'RE HERE TO STEAL THEIR LAND. WE WILL DRIVE THEM OFF.
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm
"Palestinians have no right to live anyplace but in Egypt and Arabia, whence they came. "
Another LIE. In fact, the evidence suggests it is the PALESTINIANS who are the actual descendants of the hebrews. Certainly not the thugs who come from brooklyn to steal other people's land.
Harcourt
It is not anonymous.
This image was in a highly publicized series of photos just after the war by UN photographers and photojournalists who shot the interiors of houses that IDF soldiers occupied during the Gaza War. They photographed all the detritus the IDF left behind.
This is just one of the English signs. The majority were in Hebrew. Google it.
While I applaud Jews who claim to be anti-Zionist, I do NOT trust them as Americans. I believe there is a familial loyalty inherent in the Jews, even those not religious or Zionist, to identify with the Jewish collective, and it is this collective identity that poses a 5th column danger to whatever nation in which the Jews dwell.
I respect Jews like Adam and Phil for their willingness to call out their own kind, but ultimately I believe that 99% of the Jews cannot fully sever their innate allegiances to their mythical brethren.
Look, I am conflicted on what to do about the Jewish problem, and sense many here are too. I certainly am not advocating for another holocaust, but at the same time would it be wrong to not punish the people who identify in a group that has corrupted so many countries and is cruelly subjugating a people that were indigenous just because they aren't Jewish?
My thoughts on how to solve the Jewish problem is to allow Jews who can prove that they are not Zionists, not more loyal to "Jews" than to other "ethnicities", and not Supremacists who believe they are "chosen" by God as superior. Those who can't prove they aren't Zionists or Jewish Supremacists should be detained indefinitely in detention camps like Guantanimo Bay, as it would be wrong to disperse a few million traitors upon the world at large, and deporting them to Israel would only exacerbate the torture of the Palestinians.
Remember, I think Jews should have the opportunity to PROVE to tribunals they aren't Zionists or Jewish Supremacists before being sent to camps, not simply sent as a collective without first being given legal representation. Even if the barrel of apples are almost all rotten, it doesn't mean we can't find a few good ones mixed in if we look hard enough.
mooser's link to jewssansfrontieres.com above is a classic.
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html
Hasbara tactics debunked, and better still, mocked.
Read it and you will see the truth of gabriel ash's words on every thread on this site and everywhere else hasbaristsa peddle their sorry wares.
More on the "anonymous graffiti"….
"What the Israeli army (like the Israeli state) needs to reproduce in its soldiers is either sheer racism – that is, faith in ‘the murderous nature of the Arabs’ – or a brand of religious messianism, neo-Nazi ideology wrapped in Judaism. One of the photographs in the exhibition shows a piece of settler graffiti in Hebron which reads: ‘Arabs to Gas Chambers’. "
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n14/laor01_.html
peddle more lies, harcourt, you vile degenerate!
Harcourt
You're spouting bilious nonsense.
Adam and Phil
Identify the IP address of Solution Seeker. This is either a false flag post (which I suspect) or some nutcase we dont need on this board.
MRW, what exactly about my comments you have a problem with?
@ "Harcourt Fenton":
"The grafitti shown above is anonymous".
As was the American Jewish girl who a year or so ago drew swastikas on the exterior wall of her residence. The cops figured out she drew them her self.
" It is not clear who the author is or why it was written, but it does not have the stamp of the Israeli Government. "
Are you suggesting arabs might fake stuff like the American Jewish girl? How can they do that since they have the brains of a camel? You need to bone up on your Talmud.
"The anti-Jewish hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, et al is ever-present in the Arab/Farsi media and children's textbooks and the governments of the mid-East. The government of Israel and Zionism do not preach "Death to Arabs" like many Imams in Gaza preach "Death to Jews"."
How is it that Israeli kids go though high school never learning that the Arabs were once a majority in what is now the state of Israel, as was discussed in detail on this blog a week or so ago? Sourced comments by Likud characters–leaders– describing arabs as less than human, e.g. worms, abound on the internet.
"Anti-Zionism is clearly racist. Zionism is the belief that Jews can have a self-determinative state in the historical homeland of the Jews. "
Anti-Nazism is clearly racist. Nazism is the belief that Germans can have a self-determinative state in the historical homeland of the Germans–including the ethnic Germans to the East.
"You may have a disagreement with Yisrael Beitanu about how it views the situation, but anti-Zionism drags in anti-Kadima, anti-Labor and anti-Jew ideology. Zionism is a core belief of Jews – every major text of the Jewish civilization focuses on the land of Israel as the place for the nation of Israel."
Germany has a place for the German nation, the Greater German Reich, dictated by history.
"The fact that a huge proportion of the comments to your posts are clearly anti-Jewish and full of hatred towards Israelis is evidence of the types you attract with your statements."
The fact that hasbara comments led by Chris Berel aka Bill Pearlman (SOG) are allowed in huge proportion, though full of hate, are clearly pro-Zionist, and evidence that you, Phil run an anti-goy blog.
"Given the furious belief by Hamas-supporters that Israel and Zionism have no right to exist – you lend credence to the opposite idea, that Palestinians have no right to live anyplace but in Egypt and Arabia, whence they came. You portray the Jews as interlopers in the area – rather than original natives, displaced by invaders (including those from the Arabian peninsula nearby and Crusaders from Europe). You also ignore the land purchases and settlements that occurred in the late 1800's and onwards in an area that was not governed by any "Palestinian".
The jews purchased 6% of the land in question. By giving support that natives had and have no right to exist as a self-governing nation in the land they've cultivated for generations you allow land theft, using the excuse the natives had nothing to do with: the "Shoah."
"In this debate, you are forcing people to pick a side between Jews and Palestinians. Many choose the side that has the more liberal society, with homosexual rights, women's rights, religious rights, free speech rights, etc."
Palestinians just don't have a right to their long-established homes.
"You feel you are a Philly Jew and have no connection to other Jews. Fine. But that makes you a very tenuous Jew, a "bloodline" Jew with no real Jewish culture to speak of other than a like of bagels and a small sense of social justice for others."
Hey, the bloodline is by far the main determinate of who is a jew the world over, including Israel, and for centuries. Phil could like pork rinds and still be a jew.
"The real purpose of anti-Zionism is the eradication and marginalization of the Jews."
The real purpose of the label anti-semitism is to shut up debate and hide facts.
"What exactly about the Hamas and Fatah ideology and culture appeals to you? Is it the honor killings? The rampant homophobia? The subjugation of women? The legal practice of polygamy?"
What is it about Jewish culture that appeals to you? The notion you're chosen? My aren't we special, said the church lady.
"Finally, the war in Gaza was not prosecuted in a vacuum. For you to put forth that it was anything other than a response to constant bombing of Israeli towns and the increased arming of Gaza for violence against Israel is a sham, a big lie. "
Really? You are confusing the symptom (home made rockets) with the disease (the occupation). For every Israeli action, there is, eventually, a Palestinian reaction. Simple physics. Been that way since the 1880s over there.
"And your argument that Zionism is incompatible with Arabs living peacefully in Gaza and the West Bank can easily, and rightfully, be turned on its head. If the Gaza War means that Zion should be eradicated, then the bombings from Gaza mean that Gaza can be eradicated. This is a simplistic, unrealistic and dehumanizing view of the world – and it only works if you favor Palestinians over Jews. That's your prerogative – but the denial of Jewish self-determination (in favor of identification with a group called Palestinians who are culturally, linguistically and ethnically indistinct from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians) is racist, pure and simple."
Right, and if Utah doesn't like what they get, they should just move to some other state–all the same right? All arabs are alike? They should just move off their land to some other country? Blacks should all move back to Africa if they don't like their situation in the USA? Don't the Palestinians have an equal right to self-determination and self -governance? After all, they were there before most of the Israelis
came; this holds even more true for the settlers, many of whom were born in the USA.
"hebraic dung heap"?? Oh, I guess you're being anti-Hebraic rather than anti-Jewish. In any event, it is a "hebraic" dung heap and not a Philistine dung heap.
One thing is apparent, "rykart" is clearly in the annihilationist school of thought – nothing more than anti-Jewish drivel.
As is typical of the level of dialogue here, rykart quotes only the latter part of my sentence after the words "you lend credence to the opposite idea": "Given the furious belief by Hamas-supporters that Israel and Zionism have no right to exist – you lend credence to the opposite idea, that Palestinians have no right to live anyplace but in Egypt and Arabia, whence they came. "
I didn't say that Palestinians only have the right to live in Egypt and Arabia – I said that your notion that Jews must leave lends credence to the opposite argument.
As for Mona Baker (cited above), she is a political, racist hack calling for the boycott of Israeli academics, goods and services – which, if actually realized, will hopefully shut down rykart and his ilk because they would boycott most computers in the world. Baker is at the University of Manchester – I have no idea why her opinions on Israel and Palestinian issues should bear any weight. Perhaps she should focus on divestiture from Great Britain's goods, services and academics to bear witness to the "holocaust" (her words about Gaza) that is going on in Ireland and at the hands of the British in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It is certainly possible that some Palestinians are descendants of those forced to give up their Jewish identities by the Roman, Syrian, Babylonian, Crusader and Muslim hordes that invaded israel from time to time, but, now that they identify with the hordes, they are part of the occupying invader force. They certainly have no recent and historically continuous cultural tradition of being descendants of the Jews. And most Jews in Israel are now from historic Jewish communities in Arab lands – where they were third-class subjects – not from Brooklyn. And the Brooklynites are descendants of those expelled from their country by the Romans and Arabs.
And, if your argument is that Jews and Arabs have similar genetic heritage, then why would you ever argue that the Jews don't have a place in the land, but that the Palestinians do? Just because the Palestinians acceded to the demands of the Arab invaders?
Proof of the murderous nature of Arabs?
Jerusalem—-May 2….Palestinian terrorists murdered 4 young Jewish children and their pregnant mother this afternoon. The terror attack targeted the family vehicle while it was traveling on the road that leads to the Gaza Strip settlement bloc of Gush Katif.
Another Israeli civilian traveling in a separate car suffered moderate gunfire wounds in the attack near the Netzer Hazani settlement.
The terrorists arrived by car from the nearby Palestinian village of Dir al Ballah and began to fire at passing Israeli vehicles, consequently killing the mother and her four children. Another Israeli traveling in the opposite direction, was also wounded.
After spraying the station wag(o)n with bullets, the Palestinian terrorists walked up to the 4 terrified little girls and shot each one of them twice in the head, police said. The 8-month-old pregnant mother was shot in her belly at point blank range as she tried to cover her children
The victims of the attack were identified as Tali Hatuel, 34, and her daughters Hila (11), Hadar (9), Roni (7) and Merav (2).
Wow. A Nazi, are you Solution Seeker?
I agree. Publicaly identify the IP address of Solution Seeker and post it on every pro-Israel website there is and let someone track his address down and take care of this scum bag.
Solution Seeker you shit bag. Stay away from this site. This site is for an open and healthy debate and your kind would be much more welcome over at David Duke's website.
Someone ought to make a final solution out of you.
Solution Seeker,
I hope Karma takes a bite out of your ass. Damn you. How did your parents raise you? Did you not learn anything in school? You piece of shit.
Saleema,
Not even David Duke would be insane enough to write "My thoughts on how to solve the Jewish problem…."
;~)
This is more likely some JDL type trying to incite virulently anti-semitic remarks on this blog.
Saleema, "Solution Seeker" is very, very obviously a Hasbaraist doing a little reverse-twist Zionism. His essential point is this "If you don't like Zionism, you must want to kill or imprison all the Jews"
For a Jew to talk like this is very, very shameful, and he's rotten at it, to boot.
harcourt
As most here know, I'm Jewish– so save the childish remarks about anti-semitism. The massacre in gaza and the euphoria it provoked in Israel has certainly done more to promote global anti-semitism than I could manage in 1000 years, assuming (preposterously) that such was my aim.
"It is certainly possible that some Palestinians are descendants of those forced to give up their Jewish identities by the Roman, Syrian, Babylonian, Crusader and Muslim hordes that invaded israel from time to time, but, now that they identify with the hordes, they are part of the occupying invader force."
What sort of potent hallucinogen are you smearing yourself with? madness!
I have no objection to Jews living in the Mid East, whether they claim to be descendants of an imaginary exodus or not. It's their repulsive and wholly indefensible behavior that is at issue. And I do hope you'll read the above posted article from London Review of Books, so you can at least be better informed as to the character of the people you are defending.
..another good piece taking up the issue of so-called jewish history, (basically, a threadbare hoax).
http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel
@ Richard Witty | March 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM
The MOST that an effective dissenter can accomplish is to make the next mature step possible.]
What are the set of possible next mature steps? How does lobbying or working for either stopping our subsidization of ethnic cleansing and colonization, or the withdrawal of colonies and the establish of a Jewish-majority final-status 1967 border Israel or a the establishment of a bi-national state within the current borders of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories hinder any of them?
@ Rowan | March 16, 2009 at 02:12 PM
This is nonsense. Judaism was a proselytizing religion in great spiritual ferment at the time, with no fixed canon. They were essentially wiped out. The Romans killed enormous numbers during the first revolt in Palestine. Then they basically exterminated the major diaspora population centers in Egypt, Cyrenaica, Cyprus, and to some extent, Mesopotamia during the the second revolt. Then they finished off Judaism in Palestine during the third, making Judaea and Samaria off-limits to Jews upon penalty of death. This measure was taken because the Romans suffered enormous casualties suppressing the three revolts. Jews wouldn't surrender, and when hearts and minds doesn't work, extermination is the only alternative in winning a guerilla war.
Diaspora Judaism in Turmoil, 116/17 Ce: Ancient Sources and Modern Insights (Interdisciplinary Studies in Ancient Culture and Religion, 6)
Apocalypse: The Great Jewish Revolt Against Rome AD 66-73
@ Harcourt Fenton | March 16, 2009 at 02:13 PM
Given the furious belief by Hamas-supporters that Israel and Zionism have no right to exist …
Most of Hamas' support is based on Fatah's complete failure to do anything but accelerate ethnic cleansing and colonization by engaging in fake negotiations. While anger, and after the rape of Gaza, hatred, is certainly widespread, there is no evidence that religious radicals are anything but a marked minority and refusing to engage in serious good-faith final-status negotiations because they exist is merely an excuse to keep the ethnic cleansing and colonization campaign going. Many secular folks do buy into abhorrent practices such as honor killings, but that is no obstacle to making peace and would obviously dissipate in a free society, especially a binational state where Israeli Jews would actually contribute from their positive values instead of negative ones, murder, torture, ethnic cleansing, and colonization.
That's your prerogative – but the denial of Jewish self-determination (in favor of identification with a group called Palestinians who are culturally, linguistically and ethnically indistinct from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians) is racist, pure and simple.
This is nonsense, and you contradict yourself. Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians are all culturally distinct, with overlap of course, in much the same way as Europeans share some overlap in their cultures. If Palestinians weren't a culturally distinct people in 1948, they are now as a 'pulling togother' response to shared suffering inflicting by Israelis.
@ Richard Witty via Mooser | March 16, 2009 at 02:15 PM
… "Zionism" does not conflate with "the collective Jewish people".
Richard this point is obviously correct. Judaism has been around for what, 3000 years? Zionism as a mainstream movement has been around 60 years. Jewish culture understandably changed in response to the Holocaust, and its changing now in response to Israeli ethnic cleansing and colonization. Changes in Jewish culture now, in my opinion, do not invalidate the Judaism of dissenters any more than Zionists invalidated pre-war Judaism, where Zionists were a paltry minority. Attacking dissenters as abandoning Judaism instead of merely redefining what it means to be Jewish is merely a social weapon used by those who don't want to see change. If you have a different take I'd like to hear it.
I'm with MRW. America needs a non-racist, non-Anti-Semitic, non-Anti-Arab, non-Anti-Islam way forward in the Middle East. Otherwise it will continue disharmony with our core values. The US government should embrace neither Zionism nor Anti-Zionism, just as we take no position on the differences between the American Baptist and Southern Baptist Unions. Our Congresspersons who have prostrated themselves to the Israel Lobby should wake up to the fact that they have enabled the slaughter of children in Gaza. Ditto the university presidents and newspaper editors who have prostrated themselves to the ADL, CAMERA and Professor Dershonance. Each and every one of those who seek to work in government while proclaiming an identity of interests between America and the Likud- Neocon alliance should have their security clearances revoked. Now.
How did your parents raise you?
Saleema, if what I have learned in the past few months is true, "Solution Seeker" was in some way rewarded for false or childish complaints of social anti-semitism. The psychological rewards and feelings of power this brought him, and the fact that it was easy to put over on most people, makes him the man he is today.
At the same time, he's is ashamed of himself for doing this, which just makes him angrier.
And the funny part is, about almost any other subject he might be reasonable.
Of course, you can't discount the fact he might have been socialised into ZIonism by professionals on a teen-age or adult Hasbara tour in Israel. I mean c'mon, once you've handled an automatic weapon with a Star of David on it, all the contradictions and uncertainties just melt away…
The grafitti shown above is anonymous, like the swastikas scribbled on her own rented wall by the american jewish girl a year or so ago. The grafetti could not have been scribbled by arabs since they are animals with insufficient IQ. The israeli high school kids graduate not knowing the arabs were once a majority in the current land of Israel, as was discussed in detail on this blog a week or so ago. The Likud leaders constantly refer to arabs as less than human, worms is one label, and Israel has elected a right wing coalition with this view.
Pro-Zionism is clearly racist. Zionism is the belief that Jews can have a self-determinative state in the historical homeland of the Jews even though other people already live there for generations, and these people can be displaced by any Jew living anywhere.
The fact that a huge proportion of the comments to your posts are clearly anti-Gentile and full of hatred towards earnest and honest Gentiles and honest Jews is evidence of the types you attract with your statements.
You give credence to the fiction that Jews who came from Europe or the USA have a dna right to be in Israel. This is absurd. Imagine a la Kantian directive across the world. You should also not ignore the land purchases and settlements that occurred in the late 1800's and onwards in an area that was not governed by any "Palestinian". The total land purchased is 6%. The rest has been and continues to be stolen.
In this debate, you are throwing up a smokescreen to pick a side between Jews and Palestinians. Many choose the side that has the more liberal society, with homosexual rights, women's rights, religious rights, free speech rights, etc. But the real issue is who is the thief, and has stolen the land? The rest is minor. First things first.
You feel you are a Philly Jew and have no connection to other Jews. Fine. But that makes you a very tenuous Jew, a "bloodline" Jew with no real Jewish culture to speak of other than a like of bagels and a small sense of social justice for others. But feeling is not rational. Phil can like pork rinds and still be a jew–the bloodline is the most stable criteria for who is a jew, by both the jews and their opponents.
The real purpose of pro-Zionism is the eradication and marginalization of the goys who get in their way.
The war in Gaza was not prosecuted in a vacuum. The homemade rocket attacks have been a reaction to the occupation, a symptom of the disease, which is the occupation.
"There was no 'the Jews' at the time of the Romans (who in any case did not in fact expel the inhabitants, as Joachim will confirm). The only basis for the claim of continuity is that the official J'lem cult used approximately — very approximately — the same Tanach (i.e. jewish bible), but it is unhistorical and typically rabbinical, really, to claim a continuity of population based solely on this. One might as well say the Mormons are a nation because they all — theoretically — adhere to the 'Book of Mormon'.
Posted by: Rowan"
This statement is worth repeating.
"If you have a different take I'd like to hear it."
Colin Murray
Colin, let me save you a whole bunch of time:
1. Israel Rocks!
2. Arabs Suck!
3. Well then, You Suck!
4. Okay, The Whole World Sucks!
And there you have the whole of Hasbara!
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html
Hamas!
Rocket fire on our beloved people!!!!!
The horror! My God…last week one of these rockets damaged my neighbor's swimming pool!!!
I see.
And the excuse for Israel viscously brutalizing and displacing the poor bedouin of the Negev, who are merely trying to eek out a nomadic existence with their goats is what again?
http://www.ameu.org/printer.asp?iid=45&aid=80
"Attacking dissenters as abandoning Judaism…"
Funny, Richard Witty doesn't sound like a Jewish name! Man oh fucking Manischievitz, it isn't bad enough I have to hear this from Jews, at least with Jews I can put it down to a brutalising series of persecutions which have upset their judgement, to the point that they are trying to cast out from a religion its adherents in the face of their belief that Judaism is threatened by a complete extinction! Okay, I can tell myself, they're nuts.
But I am not, not not gonna take this from Gentiles! That is completely out of the question, way, way ,way the fuck out of line!
Apparently, Jews are not keeping their stash of Ziocaine to themselves, even Gentiles are finding it a pleasant high? So Zionism not only encourages splits among Jews, it enables Gentiles to condemn Jews out of hand for being insufficiently Jewish? Man, that Zionism is great stuff. It'll be around for ever. It's so productive, has so many great fruits. (And quite a few nuts)
@ MRW and Mooser,
Oh. I thought we had a Nazi among us but he's just a Hasbara agent trying to provoke. Thanks. As you are aware I am new to this site and don't know everyone yet.
just to play devil's advocate..we're constantly treated to the likes of bernnie madoff, abe foxman, henry kissinger, joseph leiberman, elliot abrahms, tzipi livni, and the dreadfully UN-funny jerry seinfeld..so it's hardly surprising the uneducated masses have a poor opinion of Jews.
Saleema, if you like, please reaqd the link I posted on "How to Make the Case for Israel, and Win":
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html
The post which purports to tell us what Zionist Jews should be subjected to comes in under a "modified You Suck" with a twist.
You know, watching Hasbara is like judging a high-diving competition, except that nobody told those poor schmucks the pool was empty.
Rykart –
Once again, you are looking at the recent Gaza War as being without any provocation on the Hamas side. So you're Jewish – doesn't mean you can't be against Jews. Citing Mona Baker as an influence puts you in the anti-Jewish camp. If I put on the hat of a misogynistic, homophobic, fascist Hamas leader, I too would think your thoughts that Israel is a monolithic empire of evil intent on the genocide of every last Palestinian with the ultimate desire to take over the world via its secretive cabal of puppet masters who control every world event. Except, when you take off that tight-fitting hat, you realize that if genocide was the goal (as Mona Baker says it is), you would see a net decrease (by means of gas chambers and killing of millions) in the number of Palestinians inhabiting Gaza and the West Bank – yet there is a population increase.
With respect to the photo above, the graffiti IS anonymous. Soldiers were not ordered to leave it and the Army is investigating it as an offense. The Israeli government is not issuing those statements – some soldiers appear to be. Contrast that with official Hamas statements about the need to kill Jews and their calls for Israel's elimination. Contrast that with the huge wave of anti-Semitic graffiti and violence in Britain and Europe against Jews.
Rykart's view of Israel is as one of the European or Arabian colonizers and seems to be, as best I can tell from his/her statements, that Israel has no right to exist and no right to a defense. Enjoy your viewpoint – but don't pretend that it is not an anti-Jewish viewpoint.
Identify the IP address of Solution Seeker. This is either a false flag post (which I suspect) or some nutcase we dont need on this board.
I agree. Solution Seeker's post is not indicative of the mindset of the regular posters here at Mondoweiss, and should not be misinterpreted as such by new visitors to the site.
Interestingly, that mindset is more embodied in the pro-Israel voices here towards Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims.
Citing Mona Baker as an influence puts you in the anti-Jewish camp.
Harcourt Fenton
Hey Harcourt, who the fuck died and made you Jewish Pope, huh? So being a Zionist gives you the inherent right to judge other Jews? Are you even an Israeli?
Amazing, it's like they sit around snorting the stuff, their head starts buzzing, and soon they are kings of the world, ready to determine who is "anti-Jewish"
You really, really need to sober up, friend. But hey, hows about some more grandiosity and paranoia, tell us how you are saving us from the boxcars.