One mental shadow cast by my trip to Gaza is sympathy for the Israelis.
When you are in Gaza, as far as the eye can see there is incredible cruelty and scorched earth, all but unprovoked. Seeing a child burned by white phosphorus affected my delegation deeply (just look at Daniel Strum's vido). The denial of opportunity to any and all promising Palestinian students– the destruction of homes and businesses– the devastation brought to hospitals, schools and government services– the confiscation of land and the prison-wall borders– many in my delegation began to hate Israel. I felt that hatred myself.
I also wondered why Israel could be so cruel. The usual explanations are racism, colonialism, Jewish chosenness, the psychological brutalization of permanent war, the Holocaust, and the endless permission granted by the Israel lobby. All are true, but insufficient. When I was in Gaza, I wondered why Israelis were so afraid of Palestinians. You are in an incredibly poor place. Hamas has rockets but mostly they have ski masks.
Later it occurred to me that the Israelis are terrified of Hamas because of Hamas's words, that they deny Israel's existence. As John Mearsheimer has said to me, "Jews are people who believe that discourse really matters," and look, the Hamas discourse denies Israel's right to exist. That rhetoric creates a powerful sense of insecurity and wrath among Israelis.
The sympathy I felt for Israelis was the feeling that their sense of belonging anywhere is so fragile that they are easily disturbed by someone saying, We don't recognize you– so they go out and savage innocent children.
The fear was in Netanyahu's speech yesterday. He spoke of the "Jewish people"'s right to the land so many times it felt that he was protesting too much, he doesn't really believe that biblical crap, it is just a self-inflicted propaganda. Then there was his Holocaust story. A member of my delegation to Gaza liked to say that the Israelis manipulate the history of the Holocaust so as to rally American Jewry and the U.S. to Israel's side. At the time I thought he was going in for a kind of Holocaust denial, but Netanyahu's speech supported his view. Netanyahu said that if Israel had existed, the Holocaust would not have happened. He was imagining an unvictimized past so as to imagine a militarized future. And so "Never again" requires the existence of a ferocious Jewish state.
Meanwhile he denies that the Nakba even happened. He made no reference at all to Palestinian story. Palestinians just happened to show up in Netanyahu's Jewish biblical homeland. They are like the fellaheen and Arab beggars of Herzl's Palestinian tour–mere grubs on the landscape.
Putting all this together, I feel that both sides have powerful mythologies that allow them to deny the other's existence. The Holocaust story and the Nakba story. Both are over 60 years old. Both communities, in their vision of justice that excludes the other, are living in the distant past.
As I said the other day, it is essential that the Nakba narrative be acknowledged, in the west and in Israel. Because it is not, now; and we know how vital it was to Jewish liberation in America in my generation, to have the Holocaust recognized. Obama went some way toward acknowledging the Nakba in Cairo, with his talk of Palestinian dislocation, but we must go much further.
And in the end both sides must give up their victimized mythologies. I am not saying that the right of return must be liquidated. That's not for me to say. But the victimized stories must be abandoned if we are going to move forward together. There must be an acknowledgment by Palestinians of their own power to make Israelis miserable.
Even if you are for one democratic state in historical Palestine (and I am, as the goal; really the only goal), it is going to take a number of steps. There will have to be a political condominium. A halfway house for the battered parties to recuperate, called the two-state solution. Then slowly democracy can take root, in both societies, and in Iran and Egypt too.
But more than that some sort of spiritual reconciliation to the other is essential in this process. There are huge cultural differences in the Others; and denial of the other has meant denial of the Palestinian traditional way of life on the one hand and denial of Israeli civil achievement on the other. Looking back on it, my own path in America was eased by the recognition of the Holocaust. My mother's bitter refrain about "the 6 million" was extinguished by being corroborated by the Christians (as we called nonJews); and I stopped thinking about it. Now I'm a Nakba Jew. But I don't want to be one forever.
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When sexually abused adult turns to become abuser of children, the civilised society turns on him. Why? Not because he did not suffer abuse – his pain is just as true at 21 as it was at 10. What changes is his ability to control his actions and his ability to understand right and wrong. He is judged by his actions, not by his pain. His pain may explain his actions, but it does not excuse them. Not different for societies, really. I can "understand" and maybe even explain Polish Anti-Semitism. I can never condone or excuse it.
Eva– The sexually abused adult must be kept away from children. This unfortunately probably means locking him up–because he scares us and hurts those who can not protect themselves. But in a just society, this does not mean killing him, and it means treating him as best we can. So it is different for societies (even though I disagree with Phil). American pressure may push Israel to back away from irredentist intransigence. But if it doesn't, Israel will have to figuratively lock itself up, by becoming a society committed to treating Palestinians justly. That doesn't mean, as Phil writes, that "the victimized stories must be abandoned if we are going to move forward together. There must be an acknowledgment by Palestinians of their own power to make Israelis miserable." But it does mean that there can be some empathy for the oppressor, inevitable, anyway. Denying anyone's pain only in-lays it yet more deeply. Still, Palestinians have the right to use violence. The Israelis do not. This is a false equivalence. So you're right that Israeli pain explains (partially, anyway; messianism was part of Zionism pre-Holocaust, anyway) but does not excuse Israeli evil. But the pain does excuse in large measure Palestinian rocketry, because it's being inflicted right now.
Israel left Gaza and got rockets fired at their kids. Arabs blow up discos to kill young girls. They blow up seders to kill the elderly. They blow up buses to kill women. They blow up pizzerias to kill infants. You have it backwards: the Arabs savage the innocent Jews.
"Evil". I've heard that word used before. Is Israel in the axis, or the periphery? Israel is human beings. The combination of rejectionism with violence, is what convinces Israelis that the radical Palestinians MEAN what they say, that that effort is unconditional, and therefore can never be reconciled. That some large portion of the Palestinian population doesn't feel that way, unconditional rejection, is the only cause for hope there, for either community. Unconditional rejection is war. Its not even as civilized as dogs. Dogs yield eventually and go their separate ways, IF they have that choice. When cornered, they will fight to the death. Thanks for moving to the approach of mutual humanization. You've never answered in any detail on your impressions of Hamas.
Israel is willing to compromise and make peace. Arabs are not – they will only be satisfied when the last bit of libertarian philosophy and culture is wiped out of the Middle East.
With all due respect, you are buying into a false equivalence. Hamas saying Israel doesn't have a right to exist is not as serious as Israel actually denying the existence of a Palestinian state and all the protections that come with statehood. Discourse matters, but it's one thing to threaten and another to execute. This matters more so. Actions speak louder than words. Also, in putting the Holocaust and the Nakba on a parallel plane, one must point out that the Israelis hold direct responsibility for the latter, while the Palestinians hold none for the former. That's like saying the Palestinians should forgive the Israelis for their oppression (which is still ongoing) while the Israelis need to forgive the Palestinians for the Holocaust. Doesn't add up. You say "There must be an acknowledgment by Palestinians of their own power to make Israelis miserable". I think this has been acknowledged fully, with each rocket that's launched. But this must be put in context, the occupier vs. the occupied. International law is quite clear on the right to resist occupation. Bottom line is, we (whichever nation we are a part of) do it to ourselves. Self pity is non-productive. We must take the right course of action, justification of anything else is a waste of precious time.
Phil, how can you equate the Nakba and the Holocaust? Yes, both are tragedies. But the nature of these events does not need to be compared. Only that they were 'sufferings'. We know this. The point to make is HOW THEY ARE PERCEIVED and 'USED'. The Jewish Establishment (the intelligentsia/politicians/etc.) use the Holocaust for political purposes as well as genuinely being obsessed with it. It's that victim-hood tied with the brutal militarism and typical colonial racism that distinguishes them from the Palestinians. Whatever you want to say about the violence perpetrated in 'acts' against each side by the other – the difference is that for 40+ years the Israeli Jews and the American Zionist Jewish diaspora have LORDED over the Palestinians. Meanwhile, the Arab world is subject to religious fundamentalism and imperialism (both obvious and subtle). I have no doubt that Israels feel victimized, but we need to make a distinction between genuine fear and HYSTERIA. Between genuine fear and indoctrination and witch-hunting. Just look at the trolls on this website who constantly use 'terrorism' as a pretext to dismiss that the Palestinians are even a people or that they even lived in Historic Palestine. Terrorism is a very dishonest term. Throughout history, countries were formed through terror. Israel was formed through terror and we KNOW it was. Israel to this day targets civilians and civilian infrastructure just as all the great powers do. Yet, when the 'enemy of the State' does the same it's terrorism. The entire conflict is mired in this dishonesty. It's one big lie. The Occupation is what distinguishes the suffering between Jew and Palestinian. The humiliation/abuse/murder/theft/discrimination/etc. To compare Israeli suffering to Palestinian suffering in the sense that they are both equal is disgusting. Really, all the problems in the ME have to do with imperialism and colonialism. The US is essentially God and the Arabs are too divided amongst themselves while the puppets rule over them in service of their master. And the I-P conflict is the very heart of this travesty. Look at how the Jewish community reacts to Iran. Iran is independent. Plenty of internal problems but it is independent. The US and Israel want to make Iran another slave-State. Just like Jordan and Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Meanwhile, the Jewish community (and all their racist Euro-American supporters) will point out that the Arab world is run by dictators and religious fundamentalists. YEA! No shit, and it's supported by the Jewish and American elites! This is a never-fucking-ending cycle of sanctimony. And Netanyahu's recent comments are symbolic of that sanctimony and moral bankruptcy. It will take an act of God to make the world right. Jewish influence in American politics + the corrupt MIC + American exceptionalism are destroying the ME. The other problems are religious fundamentalism and corruption in the Arab world but they are hardly the main issues. This is the most myopic blog entry you've written. It's fodder for fascists like Witty.
all this spiritual talk about recognition of suffering strikes me as a way phil ( and others) find to avoid the awareness that the israel project was just plain wrong from the beginning. as if recognizing the nakba will allow the palestinians to emotionally get over having their country stolen from them. as it their grief and anger at the past is a spiritual flaw that must be overcome just as the israelis need to overcome their flaw of being greedy and selfish. it is llike when children get mad at each other, one says "i will say i'm sorry if you say you are sorry". israel has to make it BOTH their faults.
This is a great post and an important topic. I hope it gets the attention it deserves; the turmoil in Iran is taking center stage. I believe this ties in to Richard's notion of 'co-creation' and that thinking along these lines is essential to try to unravel how Israelis and Palestinians can better live with each other, and what role Americans can (and shouldn't) play. I hope you revisit the topic.
Israel did indeed leave Gaza, but not for any altruistic reason. It just couldn't afford to defend the garrisons of occupier/settlers living there. Yes the Palestinians fire rockets at the Israelis and the Israelis send up Apache helicopters and F-16s to fire rockets back. You think what? That the residents of the Warsaw Ghetto shouldn't have shot at the Germans?
Ridiculous post Phil. Psycho-babble.
A population redistribution that was forced on the Palestinians by the Israelis, against the Palestinians' will. Sounds like a Nakba to me. The Israelis drove out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, killing many in the process, and brought in hundreds of thousands of Jews to steal their homes and possessions. That's not just a Nakba, its ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Even the IDF declassified documents admit that they were responsible for at least 400,000 Palestinians fleeing in fear and terror from their homes. Stop lying you fascist.
Your words lovie, not mine.
"There must be an acknowledgment by Palestinians of their own power to make Israelis miserable." Would you ask slaves to acknowledge their power to make their masters miserable? The next time I'm strip searched and interrogated in the Tel Aviv airport for three hours just because I want to visit the place from which my father comes, I'll remember this awesome power I have to make Israelis miserable. The next time I look at the pictures of the ruins of over five hundred destroyed villages, I'll stop and remind myself that the Jews who live in what remains of our houses are victims, also. I'll remind myself that our mere existence is all it takes to make the Jews from the far corners of the world who dispossessed us of our way of life miserable. We're not going to put away our victim stories; we're still victims of the Zionist Jews.
I can't help but think that you are simply bored with the Palestinian cause.
Witty– I was the only person who used the word "evil," so I'm assuming you're responding to me. Don't. Other posters here may wish to talk with you (don't know why). I don't feel like slumming in the gutter.
You are aware that similar was done to a comparable number of North African, Middle Eastern, Central Asian Jews, a year later (or less)?
Can psychopath feel pain? If you slit the throat of the daughter of a Mafia Don in front of him will his heart bleed? If you torture a torturer can you watch it without blinking? Is raping a female soldier who seen combat less of the trauma for her than if she stayed behind lines? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? It is a convenient fallacy that people who are our enemies or perpetrators of crimes against us are less human than us. They hurt just as much, but in a red mist of anger it is simply forgotten. This is why we have Geneva Conventions and Treaties against Torture: They help us to remember humanity of those that trespass against us.
I'm aware that the Israelis did everything they could to force Jews in other countries to leave their countries of origin and emigrate to Israel, including committing acts of terrorism in those countries. The government of Israel wanted those particular Jews to use as cheap labor in jobs that they didn't want non-Jews to hold. The Jews who left those countries and moved to Israel were also horribly discriminated against by the Ashkenazim once they got to Israel.
Let me add to the things you should remember. When you are getting strip-searched and interrogated, remember that the reason you are being strip-searched and interrogated is because of terrorist attacks by Palestinian terrorists who have no problem hiding explosives under their clothes. When you are reminding yourself that Jews are victims also while you look over destroyed villages, also remind yourself that the villages would not have been destroyed if Hamas had not decided that firing mortars and rockets at Israel was worth whatever retaliation the Israelis would do in response. While you are reminding yourself about your existence making Jews miserable, remind yourself that that is a load of self-pitying crap. Jews aren't miserable because you exist, we are miserable because you and yours won't stop trying to murder us. If the Palestinians would stop trying to destroy Israel and kill the Jews, you would have your own country. That has been true for the entire existence of the Palestinians and was true for the Arabs in the region before they started calling themselves Palestinians Most of all remember that the Israelis will not accept any peace deal that doesn't include the continued existence of Israel. So, as long as the Palestinians are not willing to accept any peace deal that includes the continued existence of Israel (and not just, "for 10 years while the Palestinians gather sufficient weapons to destroy Israel") there won't be a peace deal. Finally, when (if) the next Palestinian election comes around, remember that Hamas still thinks that fighting Israel is worth whatever retaliation the Israelis will do in response. Remember that every time the Arabs attack Israel, the results are not good for the Arabs. Remember that if you make peace, you get your own country. Remember to vote for peace, not a futile war.
I don't think Hamas was around between 1948-51 when hundreds of Palestinian villages were destroyed. I was strip-searched and interrogated thirty-five years ago and carrying an American passport, and the reason was not because of any concern that a nineteen year old girl on holiday visiting the Christian town of Ramallah was a threat; it was too humiliate me so that I wouldn't come back. It's routine: “Humiliation and Child Abuse at Israeli Checkpoints: Strip-Searching Children,” Alison Weir, CounterPunch, March 15, 2007; Video interview: The Easiest Targets: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/easiestta... The rest of your racist rant doesn't merit any comment.
While reading those second and third paragraphs, I could actually see the history gutted away, filled with cement and painted over with dotted lines. Uh, Hamas did not exist in 1948 when those villages were destroyed, doofus. Of course, you just don't understand what accepting the existance of Israel entails for the people you demand it of. No one in history ever signed away their own mass expulsion, their own exile in their own land. I've used that argument before but it's not technically accurate. However, every historical case of it happening, the stronger party that committed the expulsions did not honor the agreement, and continued seizing land by hook and crook. Why would Israel be any different?
I don't know if Hamas is sincere about the ten year truce or if it's a bluff. However rejecting it outright is only a willful continuation of war. Since people like comparing Hamas to Hitler so much, Hitler promised not to invade the remainder of Czechoslovakia and did so, promised not to invade the USSR and did so, promised not to seize power on being appointed chancellor and did so. Hamas are promising not to attack for ten years. If this is such a lie, why don't they just promise to recognize Israel altogether? There are so many things they could do to fool the int'l community, but they don't have the power to recognize Israel, even pretending. There is no political grouping who can do that for any Palestinian. I think Hamas don't even know what they're going to do when Israel pulls out of the territories, but more than likely they'll become a dead letter. Israel has more than enough power to maintain a Jewish state within the 1949 lines. It's not interested. Again, no buys that if all Arabs swear off violence, Israel will stop doing what can only be prevented or delayed with violence.
"Now I'm a Nakba Jew. But I don't want to be one forever. " Uh, Phil, I think you can advocate for the de-colonisation of Palestine without agonizing over your Jewish identity. I feel alienated from the Jewish community in St. Louis but that doesn't mean there's some problem with my own Judaism whose solution is bound in this conflict.
What does the emptying out of the Warsaw Ghetto and gassing its inhabitants have to do with the ceding of land to people, having Jews buy and give them greenhouses., have them border a country with their brethren, i.e., Egypt and have them receive billions from other nations. You're a first class fool.
Excuse me, but has the Palestinian Authority ever acknowledged the 1929 Hebron massacre, the fedayeen attacks in the 50's, the killing of schoolchildren at Ma'alot, or any of the bus bombings of the 1990's, let alone pivotal moments in Jewish history? No? Then why would an Israeli leader recognize the "Naqba?" Why the double standard?
Phil,The Arab countries peace deal is still on the table.That's not enough to calm Israel?.Little hamas ,with it's fire ceackers are the menace? you cant beleive that,can you. I think you were too shocked at what the Isrealis had and are doing to the people of Gaza.the zionoists are EVIL.They have been acting like this for a hundred years and Iam sure they know other.Like a previous amswer to jake in jerusalem,I pointed to him what he was saying is "we do what we have to do or you have to kill us all".Phil,I hope witty is not rubbing of on you.
thank you andrew r. holding palestinians responsible for their suffering will not abolve the zionists of their guilt. or the jews who have sympathized with israel all these years.
Imagine a woman beaten and abused by her husband. At some point things get worse and worse. Eventually they end up before a judge and he says "And in the end both sides must give up their victimized mythologies. … But the victimized stories must be abandoned if we are going to move forward together. There must be an acknowledgment by your wife of her own power to make you miserable." No. This is completely and utterly wrong. It is worse than wrong. One does not give up any sort of victimized "mythologies" or victimized "stories" while the victimization is still occurring. At some point in the future – after the oppression has been over – say 20 or 30 years – then it will be important for the Palestinian people to put the victimization behind and move into the future. We are waiting for large sections of the Jewish community to stop living the life of a perpetual victim – put it behind them and get on with life. In the mean time, some people need to stop with the mythologies and stories about two equals battling for the land.
Philip, your comment that both Israelis and Palestinians are living in the distant past doesn't quite ring true. Not in the West Bank and Gaza I visited. The Holocaust (60 years in the past) consistently works it's way into conversations with Jews about Israel-Palestine. and The Holocaust was horrific and I would not want or expect Jews or anyone else to "forget about it" but it does not have relevance in all conversations. Rarely have I heard Palestinians reach into their past and mention the Nakba, even though it relates directly to Israel-Palestine. (Perhaps it is brought up among intellectuals) Palestinians talk about the loss of homes, businesses, lives but those losses occurred yesterday, last week, a few months ago….they are happening in the present. The Palestinians current hell takes precedence over the hell of their past, the Nakba. There is a difference between denying Israel existence, as Hamas has done and Israel's denial of the right for Palestinians to exist. Israel, the fourth largest military power in the world, weapons of mass destruction and all, is so fearful of Hamas's denial of their existence they believe they are justified to ignore international law, conduct a military occupation and siege, bomb and assault Gaza for 27 days, the list goes on. The bottom line is, they cause terror so by definition are terrorists. Now, what about Palestine? They have no army, no air force, no navy, few police, no border patrol and limited resources. They have resorted to "non-traditional warfare" consisting of rockets being shot over the border into Israel. These rockets cause damage and fear; fortunately, they have not caused heavy loss of life. The suicide bombers have caused the loss of many lives by taking their own lives with the intent of killing others. These individuals are causing terror so by definition are terrorists. I in no way condone the taking of one life or dozens of lives. The IDF, Hamas and others are killing and taking lives of innocent people. When you consult the body counts, Israel is the "winner." Does anyone, Palestinian or Israeli, feel safer? I doubt it. Has it solved the problem? No! THE PROBLEM must be solved! Forget "powerful mythologies," living in the distant past, the fear of denial of existence and look to the future. The problem is political and needs a political solution. That should be our concern and where we direct our time and energy. There are smart creative people who can solve the Israel-Palestine problem fairly. Would they please stand up?
That's self-talk. The reality is that the majority were harrassed to or legally forced to leave.
Rubbish, utter rubbish. After you've been to Gaza and after you've witnessed the aftermath of the senseless massacre of innocents and their way of life, I find this piece utterly deplorable and morally bankrupt. You can not, in any sane way, rationalize what the Jews in Israel are doing to the Palestinians. To suggest that Palestinians are somehow responsible for Israeli suffering simply because they refuse to accept the people who for more than 60 years have murdered, lied and stolen their land is what I can only term as evil. It truly saddens me that you are so preoccupied with your Jewishness that you are willing to equate murder, theft and the subjugation of an entire people for decades with nonsense such as an identity crisis. Israelis murder, steal and lie because that is what zionists do and have been doing for more than 60 years. Stop trying to find some sort of humane reason for the inhumane things they've done and continue to do to the Palestinians. We've seen this for more than 60 years and we've heard all the justification in the world.Rationalize all you want but if after 60 years you still can not see the bare truth, then there is no hope. Enough is enough! Viva Palestine!
I don't know what the term "self-talk" is supposed to mean. The reality is that they were doing just fine until the Israelis started making trouble for them in their home countries using various methods, including acts of terrorism. It was only after the Israelis did these things that they left their home countries. As I said, the Ashkenazim needed a source of cheap labor to do the kind of menial jobs they didn't want to do themselves, but they also didn't want Palestinians doing. And the Jews from those countries were treated horribly when they got to Israel. This is all documented fact.
Edwin2: You forgot the important proviso: That battered woman can't leave.
Philip is not rationalising anything. Quite the the opposite. He is acknowledging humanity of the sinner, and points out that there is a relationship between victim and perpetrator and describes one emotional strand of that relationship.
The exodus of Arab Jews was largely Israel's doing, especially in Iraq and Yemen were they were directly air lifted. However, it wasn't a crystalline process and the regimes aren't blameless. It's definitely fair to blame Israel indirectly for the exodus of Egyptian Jews due to the Lavon affair and the '56 war but again that begs the question of whether Gamal abdul Nasser intended that from the beginning. John Rose didn't think so (see Myths of Zionism which is online) although he did think the Iraq monarchy wanted its Jews to leave. In any case, the same imperialism that enabled Zionism began the process of creating reactionary regimes that were capable of eliminating minorities. Most of the crocodile tears about middle eastern Jews don't lead to any advocacy for their rights; they're just a convenient excuse to deny the same to the Palestinians.
Hmmm, so Jews were "airlifted" out of Yemen but the Yemenis really wanted them to stay? Is that like Americans were "airlifted" out of Saigon but the Viet-Cong really wanted them to stay? Are you too young to know what this is about??? Jews were RESCUED from violent, fundamentalist, terroristic, socio-pathic and congenitally antisemitic Arab and Muslim societies. Those barbaric societies haven't progressed much in the past 50 years. Or in the past 1,000. And you blame this on Israel????
How often does Phil acknowledge the humanity of the Nazis? For that matter, how often does anyone? This begs the question "Why not?"
Thank you for highlighting the power imbalance in your comment. However, I disagree that the rockets launched by Palestinians are an acknowledgment by Palestinians of their own power to make Israelis miserable by the use of words. The point of the article here, is that although the Israelis clearly have much more ACTUAL power, both physically and politically, their collective self-esteem is so low that despite all of that power, denial of recognition even by, or especially by, the Palestinians is enough to render Israel powerless in its own collective mind.
The Israelis tricked the Jews of Yemen into agreeing to be airlifted by using biblical imagery on their planes and in the name they gave to their program. There are still Jews in Yemen, who don't want to leave. Once in Israel, many of the Yemenite Jews had their children stolen from them by the Israeli government, and these children were sold to Jewish families in the United States to help raise money for Israel. The parents of these children were told that their children had died. http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf The Jews of those countries were definitely not rescued by Israel. Most of them, prior to the troubles Israel caused in their home countries, would not have ever considered leaving their home countries where they were treated much better than they were when they got to Israel. This is documented fact. Iraq is one of the countries where the Israelis committed terrorist attacks against Jews in order to make them believe they were not safe in that country. The government of Iraq had to let them go, or be faced with the possibility of more terrorist attacks. http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf
You completely missed the point of this article: read my reply to Dr. No above. Also, calling people "fascist" because they disagree with you is not only offensive and immature, it renders you a cliche of sectarian leftists. Learn to exchange ideas without name-calling: you'll be more effective because you will have more credibility.
Dear umkahlil, I don't think that's what Phil meant: it's an issue of strategy. Palestinians ARE the oppressed victims in this situation, but their true power is not in their military might. The true power of Palestinians is in their actual victimhood because it threatens Israel's view of itself as the powerless victim. Palestinians began to achieve political power during the first intifida. Why? Because, for the first time, the media exposed Israel as Goliath, not David, for the first time. All of the previous "peace process" negotiations focused on the Israeli's pre-condition that Palestinians recognize ISRAEL's right to exist. Where is the reciprocal requirement for Israel to recognize the Palestinians? Why do Israeli's insist on that pre-condition, while at the same time feel so threatened by recognizing Palestine and Palestinians?
This link disappeared from my post for some reason (probably length): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSXSVWFyCk8
As if you really care how much progress Arabs made in anything. Germany and Poland can have Jewish communities again but we have to forget about the middle east, because while Jews lived there a lot longer than Europe, they have to be extracted from the barbarism and infused with Israeli progress. After years of western powers bombing the middle east and sponsoring the Muslim brotherhood (until they didn't…), you now want to act like this is an innate trait of that region. What would the USA look like today if our govt. was overthrown and the right wing militias were given power? It wouldn't be a safe climate for Jews, either. There's no hope for an equitable society in the ME until western interference ends.
Correction: We still prop up reactionary movements in the ME, namely the pro-Saudi fanatics in Lebanon and the ruling parties of Iraq, Dawa and SCIRI. Actually, our clients in Afghanistan aren't any less fanatic. Basically we abandoned the Egyptian brotherhood and the Afghan mujaheddin.
"You've never answered in any detail on your impressions of Hamas" Richard Witty And you have never done anything but insinuate that Mondoweiss is a corrupt Palestinian propaganda outlet. You have questioned whether there is even a vestige of integrity in Mondoweiss, why the hell do you deserve an answer. Absolutely breathtaking sense of entitlement, and none of responsibility, but, after all, that's Zionism's hallmark.
There are Israelis and there are Israelis. Any colonial project like Israel has lots and lots of losers, and not all of them are Palestinians. Only a very small subset of Israelis enjoy the benefits of Israel. The great majority of the poor schlamazels who make up Israel are losers, too. If only in the sense of never feeling secure, or knowing what's really going on. Never forget that: Not only is Israel a nakba for the people they pushed out of the way, it's no picnic for the Israelis.
Hamas have resorted to non-traditional attempted murder and terrorism. Not warfare. Attacks made in an attempt to win a war may be moral or immoral, depending on the circumstances. Attacks on civilians with no possible military benefit are always immoral. To harm another person to try to protect yourselves (as Israel did in invading Gaza) is human. To harm another person just for the sake of harming them (as Hamas does) is monstrous. There is no moral equivalence between the terrorism of Hamas, aimed at killing civilians, and the self defense of Israel, aimed at killing terrorists. Actually Israel is safer. The rate of attacks from Gaza against Israel has dropped precipitously since they attacked Gaza. BTW, smart and creative has nothing to do with solving the problem fairly. The problem is that there are no mutually acceptable peace terms. A sample problem. When you solve it, then you can start on the Palestinian and Israeli peace process: Find me a number that is greater than 10 and less than 2. In mathematical terms x>10 and x<2. Trick question. There is no such number. The Israelis will not accept any peace deal that includes the right of return. The Palestinians will not accept any peace deal that does not include the right of return. Do you dispute those premises? If not, exactly how could a mutually acceptable deal be made?
In 1948-1951 Hamas wasn't around by that name, but the same spirit of hatred against Jews and genocidal intent that Hamas holds was very much around. Boo-hoo, the people you tried to exterminate weren't as soft a target as you thought and you lost some land instead of killing the Jews and taking their land. Cue the violins. As for your strip-search:. In 1974, the year after the Yom Kippur war, in which the Arab armies came as close as they ever have to destroying Israel, you visited a town that was actually about half Muslim and half Christian (not a "Christian town" except by contrast with areas with larger proportions of Muslims, were you lying or ignorant about that in your post?) And your being a Christian mattered how? Muslims do not hold a monopoly on terrorism or weapon smuggling. And the people strip searching you knew in advance that you weren't smuggling weapons how? Just because your (for all they knew forged) passport said you were 19? Older than some suicide bombers.
Oh, is that what she meant about villages being destroyed? I was talking about the areas destroyed in recent Gaza war, not ancient history. Funny how history repeats. The Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 to try to destroy it and exterminate the Jews. Result: Arabs lose the war and whine about the damage they suffered in the war they started. The Palestinians attack Israel in 2008 to try to kill Jews. Result: Palestinians lose the war and whine about the damage they suffered in the war they started. As for going along with being exiled from their own land. I can think of a group that has done that dozens of times. The Jews. Mass expulsions from people's lands hasn't been an issue for most of history because either the people just fled elsewhere without a formal acknowledgment, or the other side exterminated them. There is already precedent for Israel giving back land in exchange for peace: the Sinai. They captured it twice and gave it back twice. Israel has never started a war. They take territory when the Arabs attack them. Funny thing, I have played that way in empire building games. I build my economy, never start a war and take territory only when attacked. The AI is stupid enough to keep starting wars with me. The Arabs should be smarter than a strategy game AI and stop attacking Israel.
Your conspiracy theories are quite remarkable. Sure the lot of the immigrant (anywhere) isn't always a very happy one in the short term, but to say that Jews had it better in the Arab and Islamic world than in Israel is sheer lunacy. Your stories about Israel sending terrorists squads to attack Jews so that they might move is like the stories about Hitler actually being a Jew doing the work of the Elders… beyond lunacy…
These aren't conspiracy theories. They are historical fact. I've already provided documentation. If you choose to not look at it, that's your problem, but it doesn't change the facts.
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