Lately we’ve been conducting an informal roundtable on the challenge, Offer readers a forward-looking solution in Israel/Palestine. The following is a response from David Zellnik, a leading young playwright, and non-Zionist Jew.
Actions are more important than words, as in Joseph Dana’s eloquent reply to you; his entry about how the group Ta’ayush skipped potentially-frustrating wordsmithing in favor of direct engagement strikes me as the right approach.
That said, I’ll try to answer you, because direct action is not always an option… And also because one desired result of direct action is to create a situation where the kinds of conversations you are having become unavoidable.
When a Zionist asks me if I believe in a Jewish state I say, I believe in a state that treats all its citizens equally. I try and counter a positive with a positive.
Usually the person is Jewish, and usually I continue: Look, a lot of Jews now live in Israel, there is a vibrant exciting Hebrew culture that didn’t exist 100 years ago. I’m all for that. Whatever solution is needed – and there are people dying daily for lack of a solution – we can agree the solution needs to include and preserve that. Also there are religious Jews – I’m not one – but there are those who believe god gave us the land. Great. Plenty of Mormons in the US have a charged belief about certain places in America/Utah but here’s what’s different: they don’t get to be privileged citizens because of what their holy book tells them. The reality is Jews are living in a land that has a strong indigenous Arab population and Israel is not allowed to discriminate against them simply because there’s anti-Semitism in the world or our holy book tells us the land is ours.
Ask them what a Jewish state MEANS to them. Does it mean a place where Jews have a strong connection to the land/history, a place where holidays are Jewish? None of that has to change. Does it mean a place where non-Jews are discriminated against in jobs, housing, education, with both de facto and de jure discrimination in the name of the Jewish state? That’s what the Jewish State means right now. Talk about the Present absentees, the unrecognized villages, etc., make them see that the words “the Jewish State” don’t just mean self esteem/affirmative action for Jews, they mean on the ground awfulness that no Jew would put up with as a minority in the West or anywhere.
As you can see, I have avoided the Occupation in this.
The Occupation is so clearly wrong that not much logic is needed to explain it, esp. to the kind of people you are talking to. It’s is discussing the manifestly unjust status of Arab citizens of Israel/residents of Jerusalem where I find Zionist resolve flags, “Jewish State” logic can dissipate; once they understand that if the price of having a Jewish state is telling non-Jews they can’t live, or work, or serve as equals, many can be nudged into a Post-Zionist place even if they don’t admit it.
My Solution (Written with anxiety and humility as better women and men than I have wrestled with this, and my thinking draws shamelessly on theirs)
Zionists tend to get very scared when concrete plans are on the table (see, the Arab Initiative 2002-present). Most simply do not trust Arabs. When I ask them what their endgame is, they have none. I liken it to the dilemma of the slaveholder: “We know we need to free the slaves but if we do, what if they kill us?” This is tactically unsustainable and morally grotesque.
The challenge of any solution is you have to untease several strands of Zionism from each other in order to explain to Israelis that Hebrew culture need not vanish, Jews need not leave Israel.
It is a presumptuous act to propose a solution, both because the reality of history unfolding undoes the best laid plans… and more importantly, I don’t live there.
That said, we have a right as Americans to propose the kind of country we wish Israel to be. If we end our billions of dollars of aid and cease giving them diplomatic cover in the UN, we lose many of our rights to dictate a solution – not our responsibility as humans to fight for justice, but some of our rights as Americans. (We as Jews must also work to not allow Israel to speak for the “world’s Jews” but that is a different issue.)
Personally, I’m for a one-state solution, it seems the most just, most reflects my value system. However, I confess I have on-the-ground fears: it took fewer extremists to tear Yugoslavia apart and that had been a functioning multicultural country for 40 years. The crazies on both sides are not going anywhere and what happens when the first Arab is raped, the first Jew lynched by a member of the other community?
Therefore, and especially in conversations like you are having, I would propose a 2 state solution. 22% of mandatory Palestine is already a huge compromise and besides, the barest minimum of what Palestinians are entitled to by int’l law; more importantly, a secure Israel within the ‘67 lines would allow Israel the demographic self-confidence (terrible phrase but there you are) to face the contradictions in Zionism – democracy vs. ethnic nationalism – and hopefully choose the former, becoming a vibrant Hebrew Republic, by which I mean a secular state where all citizens are equal but is so overwhelmingly Jewish that its Jewish citizens can still feel like a core concern of Zionism has been satisfied.
Within the new, internationally-recognized borders, coexistence with Arab citizens (20% of this new Israel) must be forged, as it is in any country with a national minority. Also I think Jews should study Arabic in elementary schools to balance Arabs learning Hebrew – small thing but hey, you’re asking me, that’s my proposal. Arabs of course must be allowed to live anywhere in Israel (the JNF disbanded), the army must be made a welcoming place for them, their schools must be equally funded, their political parties must never be banned, etc. Arab belief in a Jewish state cannot be the price of equality. Arabs deserve equality because those are human rights and every other settler state – Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada, has made peace with its indigenous people and offered them full equality. This cannot be negotiable.
In what will be Palestine (now the West Bank and Gaza), can any Jewish settlers stay? Well on one hand, ideally, every Jew who wishes to stay in Palestine should be able to – as a “Palestinian citizen of Jewish descent.” The reality is the colonial legacy of the settlements mean that for instance, water use is deeply unfair, and in many cases, Palestinian private property was stolen. I imagine most Jews would not wish to stay as citizens of Palestine but I think, somehow, the offer should be made. (Though I’d remind them, you cannot compare the Palestinian citizens of Israel with these future possible citizens of Palestine. One was an indigenous people who watched Jews arrive and remake a country where Arabs became second-class citizens, the other group- post ‘67 settler Jews – are people who violated international law and stole land.)
Israel must apologize for the Nakba – an apology could have amazing power. I truly believe this. A truth and reconciliation committee should also happen to tell the awful stories of what has happened in the occupation on both sides (though naturally, I’m more horrified by the side that wielded state power, especially since it’s been done in my name).
Israel should offer restitution for the Palestinians ethnically cleansed in ‘48 and to their descendants but – and I cringe as I type this but I fear I must say it: the right of return for Palestinian refugees within Israel must be mostly symbolic, though families must be reunited. I realize it’s not my place to compromise other people’s rights and my Palestinian friends and my non-Zionist allies have a right to be angry with me for writing this. It’s just I see no way to get from the bloody present to anywhere good unless the Right of Return is compromised on. That said, I would remind the people you are talking to that this is a huge concession: Jews still sue Germany, France, Poland, etc. for stolen property in WW2 and we usually win. (And on a personal note, ½ my family has tried to get citizenship in Austria to some degree of success, so why shouldn’t Palestinians have the same right to the homes they were kicked out of in 48 and after?)
It is tremendously unfair what happened in ‘48, what continues to happen, the refugee camps, all of it. But generous restitution, a full apology, a limited resettling are as far as I can imagine Israel going and from what I understand, could satisfy many Palestinians’ actual desires of where to live. I do not write this easily. Why am I more concerned about offending Palestinian sensibilities? Because here I am asking them to compromise on what they are justly owed; with Israelis I am only asking them to compromise what they want.
Just to dig myself in deeper, I think Israel’s Jewish Law of Return should stay on the books. I don’t think it’s much of an issue in reality – in fact Israel is liable to lose Jews, rather than be flooded with immigrants. It addresses a core concern of Zionism, that Jews in peril always have a place to go, though Jews not currently in peril should perhaps have a more standard process for immigration, and lose the state-sponsored goody packages they are offered on arrival in Israel. Again this is not a moral argument; this is a political argument that I think on the ground could work.
And Jerusalem? Always seemed rather the easiest part: divide what is easily divided, evacuate the Jewish ring settlements (of course) and internationalize the old city. Maybe put the UN there. It’s centrally located and we wouldn’t have to deal with diplomats parking in NYC anymore.
Now, what do I really hope? I hope one day, these two countries will federate, or unify, and there will be one state. An Israel that has freed itself from Jewish ethnic privilege might well not be as scared of a one-state solution as it is now.
Anyway, for now, what we can work towards is 2 states, a secular Hebrew republic that honors its Jewish heritage (in holidays taken, many symbols), respects fully its minorities, has a constitution that guarantees equal rights and shows how co-existence can be forward-looking and exciting, rather than a brick in the gut compromise. And a Palestine that respects its people and its own diversity, and one that – unlike what most Israelis mean when they say 2 states – has full control of its borders, its air rights, its water, an army, etc.
Lastly, remind them this mess was all predictable and predicted. Through the past 100 years of Zionist settlement there have been people like us warning that endless war, a coarsening of our moral traditions, would be the likely outcome of creating a Jewish State. It’s like Iraq – we all have a duty to try and make sure American withdrawal doesn’t make things worse – but when the neocons say: how could we know what would happen? how could we know he had no weapons? It is useful to remind them many of us said those very things in 2003. And so they don’t get to run the conversation anymore.
If the people you are talking to cannot agree in principle with the above proposal, then I believe they are probably lost to us and will never support a Palestinian state or a one state solution under any circumstances ever ever.
Related posts:
- ‘LA Times’ raises the fundamental question: ‘Is it possible to be both a Jewish state and a democratic state?’
- Likud MK: Israel is not ‘a Jewish and democratic state,’ but rather ‘a Jewish state with a democratic regime’
- Chomsky: I’ve been for one-state all my life, but we need two states first
- Israel’s Leading Publisher States that His Country Is an ‘Apartheid State’
- Dream of two states morphs into– horrors– one man, one vote
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Plenty of Mormons in the US have a charged belief about certain places in America/Utah but here’s what’s different: they don’t get to be privileged citizens because of what their holy book tells them. Don't fall for this trap. Use the term le'um (nationality) instead.
some of us who read mondoweiss do so because we are concerned about the fate of our own country. everyone in that category needs to know that the "zionists" or whatever you want to call them are try to take control of all dissent by labelling it hate-mongering and terrorism. the adl and the southern poverty law center and god knows what other jewish organizations are behind these initiatives. if hr1955 passes the senate, it's already passed the house overwhelmingly, what we are doing will be illegal. the dept of homeland security is hand and glove with the adl. if you read the latest dhs document the ideas are the same as that on adl website. cleverly, thrown in with hate crimes against jews are those againsst homosexuals. if you are against this law, you are therefore an antigay bigot. . ADL Provides Extremism and Civil Liberties Training to the Department of Homeland Security Washington, DC, May 1, 2007 … The Department of Homeland Security has contracted with the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) to provide its specialized training and expertise on extremism, hate groups, domestic and international terrorism, and civil liberties to high-level agency personnel. ADL held a special session of its Advanced Training School (ATS) for Homeland Security officials on April 22-24 in Washington, D.C. On hand for the briefings were 34 participants representing various divisions within the department, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Transportation Security Administration's Federal Air Marshals Service, Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and the U.S. Secret Service. In remarks to the ADL's National Leadership Conference in Washington, D.C., Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said the briefings are one way his department, the government's third largest, is partnering with ADL to address issues of immigration, civil liberties and extremism. "By providing this course since 2003, ADL has equipped hundreds of graduates from over 150 law enforcement agencies with vital information about terror networks, extremist movements and civil liberties protections," Secretary Chertoff told an audience of nearly 500 ADL leaders from across the country. "Our Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties has been working closely with ADL, and we've just completed a course for over 30 of our colleagues at DHS, working with the ADL on these issues of terrorism and civil liberties," Secretary Chertoff added. ADL's Advanced Training School, launched in 2003, provides law enforcement professionals with state-of-the-art training, information, resources and contacts to increase their capabilities in combating domestic and international terrorist threats. Between 2003 and 2006, ATS held 10 sessions, training 326 senior level law enforcement personnel representing 162 different local, state and federal agencies. "Our trainings are intensive and offer a range of detailed information about anti-government extremists, hate groups, extremism and terrorism on the Internet and hate groups," said David C. Friedman, ADL Director of National Law Enforcement Initiatives. "We have had phenomenal feedback from the participants, and the ATS program has enabled us to establish important relationships and contacts with law enforcement." ADL convened the special session of ATS at the request of Homeland Security's Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties.
Superb post. And it's balanced in the right sort of way–not where one feels pressured to say that Israeli and Palestinian complaints are equal in weight, but balanced in the sense that the author carefully disentangles the legitimate concerns of the Zionist side from those less legitimate. And he doesn't make false equivalences between the rights of the oppressed Palestinians and the expansionist desires of the Israelis. He acknowledges the legitimate aspirations of the Zionists for a place where Jewish culture can thrive without in any way justifying the treatment of the Arabs. He favors a one state solution as truly fair, but quite rightly fears what a few extremists on either side could do and so favors the two state solution in the short run, while recognizing that this is unfair to the Palestinians. I wonder if the day will come when we start seeing articles expressing this viewpoint appearing on a regular basis in mainstream liberal publications.
The 'Two State' solution can only be a temporary solution. In and by itself it's grotesque Apartheid based on the most blatant form of 'racial' segregation. For now, the Palestinians urgently need a place to live: the farce of penning these people in refugee camps, open prisons like Hamas or hemmed between Israeli settlements has been going on far, far too long and risks turning a fairly secular and well-educated people into a small army of International terrorists. So, Two State Solution NOW! But with the purpose of reconciliation and the creation of a secular, democratic State for all, with 'one man, one vote' in the medium-long term. Partitioning projects don't have a long shelf life and no matter how craftily constructed, the Two State solution is by definition an injustice (but perhaps a tolerable one?) imposed on the Palestinians…
ooops, Gaza, not Hamas, of course…
The "core": a refuge. Holy stones not required. Somethings can't be fixed, especially those that are wrong from the start. By rights Israel should have been carved out of France, Germany, Bulgaria…there's yer justice! As it is, my thoughts return to Nevada. Who can say why not? Plenty lebensraum, lax gun laws, little(overt) anti-Semitism, no jihad. The northen part is twice the size of the present Israel. It's lays at roughly the same latitude. Why not?
The two-state solution is the optimal one, NOT a compromise, unlitkely temporary (but its for the peoples' themselves to decide). Thats if you believe in one-person one-vote, in the present. The green line is a practical basis of division. Transitions must be carefully designed, but guided by the overarching confident commitment to two states. And, acceptance of the others' existence and rights to remain as minorities in each state are CRITICAL for the states to remain at all. I was disappointed that David Zellnick only referred to the rights of Palestinians within Israel to be equal and color-blind (which I agree to), but did not mention the rights of Jewish minorities to be equal and color-blind in Palestine. Both are necessary.
On apologies. They should also be mutual. The degree that the 90's and 2000's terror imprinted into Israeli consciousness, and nearly all American and European Jews that were paying close attention, is profound. The Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP terror was much more threatening than the World Trade Center, for its intimacy. The fear that it engendered, intentionally, was "anyone that could like almost exactly like you, that you could even see daily on a bus, could willingly mass murder 100 children with no pretense of military target or significance". To ignore that is a gross negligence. That dissent fails to insist firmly that terror be permanently renounced as a means of dissent, is a GREAT negligence.
YouTube Taps ADL As Partner In Fight Against Hate New York, NY, December 11, 2008 … YouTube has reached out to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) for its expertise in dealing with hate on the Internet. In one outgrowth of that partnership, the League is now a contributor to YouTube's newly launched Abuse & Safety Center, where users are empowered to identify and confront hate, and to report abuses. The YouTube Abuse & Safety Center features information and links to resources developed by ADL to help Internet users respond to and report offensive material and extremist content that violates YouTube's Community Guidelines on hate speech.
Now that you've done my little thought experiment you no doubt have realized that Israel isn't about celebrating one's roots nor is it a refuge for abused Jews. It is a stake in a claim by the West to the resources of the Mid East.
This post is terrific! While acknowledging that actions are what really count (and, simply stated, Israel needs to stop behaving badly now), as to the debate, Zellnick captures just the right tone and phrasing: "The challenge of any solution [in any debate?] is you have to untease several strands of Zionism from each other in order to explain to Israelis that Hebrew culture need not vanish, Jews need not leave Israel. " In moving the debate forward, we need to continually untease separate strands of argument. I can't help but remember the tendency to conflate unrelated things in the run-up to Iraq. Unteasing is the antidote to conflation. I guess it takes a wordsmith. Zellnick should write a regular column, as he seems to have the knack to dissolve Neocon bluster and ideology with nuanced common sense easily seen once the conflation is unteased, tied to positive and constructive impetus. A Mondoweiss prize for this post. Happy 4th of July to everyone.
Phil writes often, endearingly, of the youth, especially individuals that came of age during the Iraq War as a formative political consciousness experience. (As we, nostalgically, experienced the Vietnam Era.) I think the phenomena of generational political consciousness contains a GREAT many failings, as well as some virtues. The most conspicuous ones have been replayed here around the parallel Vietnam consciousness. Phil's mother and my aunt came of age in the late 50's, early 60's. The betrayals of Stalinism was declining in importance. The McCarthy era was declining in importance. The suburban world was stodgy, but the political world was vibrant. Law was AFFIRMING equal due process under the law clearly, confidently. People were expressing themselves. Even early anti-Vietnam period demonstrations were idealistic, not revolutionary. The consciousness that emerged from that was idealism. In just five short years from 1967 to 1972, the prevailing political appearance (if not actually polled) of anti-Vietnam War efforts went from liberal Eugene McCarthy/Robert Kennedy electoral emphasis to Abbie Hoffman esque "Revolution for the Hell of It" tenor. Thats where the "generation gap" bore out. That and drugs. I knew Phil in 68, 69 and 70. I don't know exactly how he emerged to go to Harvard in 72. I don't know if Phil got gassed, clubbed, thrown out of high school for his convictions or writings then. The New Left had a very short memory. They did NOT know history well. They knew what appealed to their idealism, and often at a very trivial level. (Others determined TO study as a result of their dissent.) In spite of Hubert Humphrey's history of often courageous civil rights, labor, and other stands, he was condemned in 68. His commitment to continue the war should have been criticized severely. His record as a whole, his person, shouldn't have been condemned. And, the reason for that stupid judgement, was the short generational memory. There is a similar stupid judgement process on this issue, that results from similarly short generational memory. And the key events that I think are critical that are lost to those that started their interest in the topic in 2002, is the real history of intimate and gruesome terror conducted by Hamas (the same INDIVIDUALS as elected) during the 90's and 2000's. It is not forgotten and shouldn't be. The absence of the memory, and the absence of their apology in any significant form, CONSTRUCTS the current stalemate as much or more than even Netanyahu's. And, apology for, or even ignorance of the record and experience of terror, by the "left" is a gross hypocrisy.
I don't mean that Israelis and Palestinians should be color-blind, but that their law and application should be.
"you have to untease several strands of Zionism from each other in order to explain to Israelis that Hebrew culture need not vanish, Jews need not leave Israel. " all this concern for jewish culture and jewish feelings is going to seem self-indulgent in the extreme in a few years. it will be embarrassing. if i were a writer i would watch out for that.
ALSO SEE: "ADL, YouTube launch partnership to fight video abuse", Dec. 14, 2008, By MAX SOCOL, "THE JERUSALEM POST" (EXCERPT) The Anti-Defamation League announced Sunday its recent expansion into the world of YouTube, the on-line video-sharing site. The US-based advocacy group has officially partnered with the digital media powerhouse in an effort to combat hate speech and other forms of abuse… ENTIRE ARTICLE - http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=J...
I agree with you, Witty. The problem that both sides use terroristic tactics and within the confines of Gaza and Israel, any violence is going to resemble terror. I have been optimistic about dealing with Hamas since they "grew out of" suicide bombing and moved to primative rockets. The rocket attacks on civilians are detestable, but it represents progress from a self-destructive nihilism towards an actual government that can control its use of force and be reasoned with. I think any further progress depends on the Israelis dropping their obsession with their own moral superiority and discuss terms openly with the Palestinian government. If Hamas is on board, then Hamas can legitimately be blamed for failing to meet the terms. The ball is clearly in Israel's court. They are the stronger party and need to act like it.
RE- Zellnik: make 2 democratic states (and then dream about one state) MY COMMENT – What a thoughtful, beautifully written analysis.
Very good post, Witty. Thanks. "The New Left had a very short memory. They did NOT know history well." I certainly agree. My own shift (from being raised a post-60's liberal) towards a quasi-Buchanan style conservatism was driven by discovering the serious omissions in my formal education, and seeing firsthand the unacknowledged and often disastrous failures of well-meaning social movements and international interventions. You are right about the horrors of the suicide bombings, but that can't be undone. The inability of the Israelis to offer even a wary trust to *any* group who has wronged them simply means that their list of potential negotiating partners grows smaller and smaller, and their list of permanent enemies grows ever longer. Our war with Japan was hideous on both sides, yet after the war we were suddenly the best of friends. A mature nation must be able to adapt to changing politics and avoid personalizing foreign policy. Israel as yet seems unable to do this.
"The Anti-Defamation League had written to the U.S. Department of Justice in May to urge an investigation into George Galloway’s efforts to raise money here for his Viva Palestina campaign to bring aid to Gaza." http://www.jstandard.com/index.php/content/item/a... Sure glad America's got folks like the ADL to keep our priorities straight. Although I am surprised they didn't say anything about "antisemitism."
On apologies. They should also be mutual. I agree that both sides have done things for which mutual contemporaneous apologies are warranted. However, the notion should not morph into one of a false equivalence of suffering and guilt. It should not turn into an 'out' for avoiding full Jewish recognition of responsibility for the Nakba and the terror, torture, and murder used to suppress Palestinians in its aftermath. There can be no self-centered and self-pitying avoidance by colonial Zionists (and Richard I am not accusing you of being among their number) of this 'original sin' of the founding of Israel, or the social healing necessary for a sustainable peace will not occur. The state of Israel used terror as a tool of governance against Palestinians long before "the 90's and 2000's [Palestinian] terror imprinted into Israeli consciousness". Arabs didn't commit the Holocaust. Palestinians are not the new Nazis. And violence used to resist attack is not as morally reprehensible as violence used to attack. This reply was prompted by memory of the quote from (I think) Golda Meier, which went something like "We can forgive Arabs for killing our sons, but we cannot forgive them for making us kill theirs." There is something disturbing about this that makes me wary of the necessary sincerity of remorse required from pro-colonization Zionists for the region to achieve a level of tranquility such that the behavior of the Israeli government ceases to be a security threat to the United States.
yes, I understand your disappointment, theoretically. But given the history of the last few decades, I can also see that this is a huge demand of Palestinians. The settlers surely had advantages as serving as some kind of vanguard/advance party in the quest of greater Israel. Obviously the basis for the clashes, with the settlers always being backed by the IDF. How do you intend to address the accompanying feeling of humilation, degradation stealing of land and denying any rights to the people? How would you handle the issue in your scenario? How would you address the fear of Palestinians that given the same rights they may intend to now slowly buy up the rest? There were fears like this in Poland concerning German people buying back land. And strictly I can understand them.
Thanks, D.. I follow Galloway closely and hadn't read about this inevitable turn of events…
have you considered that the embarrassing quality of foxman is working to the adl's advantage? adl is dismissed and derided. however they are apparently quite powerful sponsoring legislation. is it even more diabolical than i imagined? zionists discrediting extreme and embarrassing zionists like foxman and dersh , so that the adl and others can work more effectively in the shadow of no media coverage. paranoia on my part , surely. the new anti-hate bills do mention anti-semitism btw.
David Zellnik I could not agree with you more. I am copying this, fixing the spacing, adding the attribution, and putting it into one of those code thingeys that will print it out when I type, say, 'dx+SPACE' in an email when someone asks me what I think should be done in Israel and what I really think about it, which I get a lot in an accusatory way as a result of my article forwarding. You were in my head, writing my words. [You nailed the Mormon analogy, contrary to the first poster's wishful thinking.]
Nothing like taking 100 years of a conversation and theory started in a Viennese cafe, adding a dictionary definition you say you alone are capable of understanding, claiming it has it roots in a language only resurrected in the 20th C and announcing this represents the whole. Of history. Of life. Of understanding. Maybe in your sandbox. But not on our globe.
What's Hebrew for "Dhimmi" again?
The Jewish Ministry Of The Interior responsible for giving rights and privileges or not, does not recognize any "Israeli nationality" although it recognizes over a 100 nationalities. The ID card replacing nationality "Jewish" or "Jew" and various non-group nationalities has been replaced by an ID Card that directly displays no nationality; instead Jews get a card displaying their birth date according to the Jewish calendar and the Roman calendar, and non-Jews get a card displaying on only a Roman Calendar birth date–in this way each groups gets its level of rights and privileges, and benefits. It is a disguised apartheid ID card. This ID and discriminatory practice flies in the face of Israel's Declaration Of Independence, but reflects to date what is meant by a state grown expressly for the Jewish people.
Chertoff is an Israeli Citizen by Israeli law as his mother is an Israeli by a version of the law of return applicable to Jews born in the Mandate before Israel became a state; his father was a rabbi and talmudist; he himself is a student of the talmud from the schul he attended as a youth. Despite this, the Congress approved this Bush appointee with not even a single question related to conflict of interest, in direct comparison to the way Congress screened other Bush appointees. So DHS teams up with ADL to decide who's America's internal enemy; and Harmon, another zionist who was caught on tape agreeing to help sink the Franklin spy case, is a key pusher of the new thought police bill, awaiting its moment to come to life in the Senate. White Americans who criticise Israeli policies and US support of them will be the main targets–a big goal of the bill is to censor the internet, the only existing way to circumvent the boilerplate hasbara that pretends to be news coverage of the US-Israel sweetheart partnership and the I-P history in context (meaning no-context except Pals are vicious anti-semites).
I find nothing persuasive in zelnick's statement, which seems to me another denial of the true character of Israel–a state all-but-unanimous in their virulent arab hatred, racism, vigilantism, criminality, arrogance and appalling lack of humanity. I don't agree that hebrew culture, as it exists in israel, should be preserved. This culture in Israel today is a culture of ethnic cleansing, a culture not only supportive but enthusiastic toward the most horrific human rights abuses. I'm also offended at the obvious racism implied in continuing to allow Jews from Teaneck, New Jersey and Togoland to be granted instant citizenship within Israel while those driven from their homes in Israel are denied right of return. It's absolutely monstrous and totally indefensible. Zelnick's post ignores the entire history of israel, where we have leader after leader proclaiming in unambiguous terms that 'the country is not big enough for us and the Arabs. They have to go. We will drive them out.' Instead, Zelnick implies a fundamental good faith among Israelis, leavened with caution. That strikes me as a complete distortion. No such good faith exists. Israelis view Arabs as subhuman, in all polls, they proclaim their UNwillingness to live amongst Arabs. They have essentially admitted that all this nonsense about defense is a threadbare ruse to justify continued displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians. To even acknowledge "Israeli concerns" is no different from saying "Nazis should have a say in things, too." Rubbish. The job of the civilized world is to stop aggression against Palestinians and punish the aggressors. Period. Moreover, the two state solution is worse than dead. It was, in fact, never alive, as the starting point for even considering such a state is that, regardless of the particular real estate involved, the Palestinians would be permitted NO MEANS of defending themselves from aggression and would not even control their own borders and airspace. That is not a state.
The two-state solution is most definitely NOT an optimal one for the Palestinians for the reasons Zellnick clearly states–Witty are you blind? It IS clearly a compromise leaving the Palestinians in the over all context of the Mandate history the losers, the suckers, the ones that would be taken advantage of as a collective as compared to the Jews. I'd like to see a referendum with all Israelis and all Palestinians voting on which plan should be implemented–the concept being if 51% of each vote for either the two-state or the one state, that is what would be enforced by the international community. The UN, who validated the partition, and later the unilateral Truman and Stalin recognition of the state of Israel's self declaration, should be the referendum monitors and objective guarantee of the votes.
Delete Israel. Bomb the settlements. Zionist thieves, racists and killers: leave.
excelling post, phil ! ! ! just one thing, you write and I cringe as I type this but I fear I must say it: the right of return for Palestinian refugees within Israel must be mostly symbolic, though families must be reunited. phil, take the final step, let go of your identity as a jew. being a jew or christian or muslim are like clothes we wear. they are not the real Being. once you embrace Being you can see yourself as a jew just like you see yourself wearing your favorite jeans. ethnic/religious identity is something external to you, your true Being. it has nothing to do with your true nature.
Golda Meier's statement should be compared to Himmler's speech to his troops; they had to forgive themselves for their murder of Jews because it was a war between the German people and their natural foe in the struggle for existence, the SS should be hard and cruel and merciless against the Jews for making the SS men kill them to assure god-ordained and chosen German continuity.
Why stop there, Witty? Why should needed historical memory start during the 90's and 2000's? You are the big pot calling the little kettle black. Get real.
Who will urge investigation into all the NGO's that send tax-exempt money to illegal Jewish settlements in defiance of US official policy and international law?
How can we know what the zionists have in mind? Just ask them! http://www.distantocean.com/2009/06/everything-ol...
I thought the whole thing was Zellnik's. Where does Phil's part begin?
That's quite astute, citizen.
The acknowledgement of enough should be enough. Sovereignty, freely consented, even as the circumstances could have remained vague (remains vague NOW). IF the PLO or PA were reaffirmed as the sole representative of the Palestinian people, then it would not be vague. Then, the questions of what was intended by the original mandate, 1949 armistice, and resolution 242 would be resolved. It would not be a question of whether the West Bank was Jordanian then transferred to noone (administered/occupied by Israel), but it would be transferred to SOMEONE. I don't know what Israel is "obligated" to do to resolve issues of humiliation. I think it would be best that once secure, they undertake the inquiry to identify the legal and communal wrongs that they honestly feel, and convey that honestly. It will take individuals and some official. Like it is unlikely that the Arabs will convey what Israel wants them to convey in exactly the same affirming terms, it is unlikely that the Palestinians will get the apology that they insist on in the terms that they or you suggest. It would be wonderful if you acknowledged that actual land ownership and potential uses were abused both ways. The Arab formula of immigration = theft in any way, is NOT a democratic perspective. It amounts to saying that only "native Americans" deserve the right to vote in the US, which is a fascist formula.
Its an optimal one in the present. The single state would be no state.
I agree that the world has changed. Hamas has changed somewhat. (That is one significance to the decision of Hamas to resume shelling civilians following the end of the cease-fire period. It communicated to Israel that "we have NOT changed". If that wasn't accurate, that in fact they had, that action grossly miscommunicated.)
Your prescription for "discussing terms openly with the Palestinian government" is wonderful. Except, that the majority of dissenters regard the Palestinian government as invalid, and Hamas refuses to join it except on its own terms (which include voiding prior agreements with Israel).
Golda Meir's speech was a description of exactly what Avraham Berg's thesis was that Phil applauded, that the emphasis on military and militaristic values hurt Israeli and Jewish identity. You love it when Berg says it, but distrust it when Golda Meir says it?
Zellnik really has to lose the Zioshmooze:
Either Zellnik believes that the rights of Palestinians are equal to those of Jews or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he is just another ethnic Ashkenazi Nazi trying to preserve unjust and immoral Jewish privilege while he pretends to be pro-peace and sympathetic to Palestinians.
For a Jew to prove that he truly believes in equal human rights, he must demand that stolen properties be reconveyed to their rightful owner and that Palestinian residential rights be restored within the lands that a criminal conglomeration of racist murderous genocidal invaders, interlopers and thieves usurped. Until Jews finally show acknowledgment, remorse, contrition, and atonement for the last 150 years of heinous atrocities that have arisen from internal Jewish politics and culture, we can be sure that Jews will only commit greater outrages in the future.
I was thinking that Zellnik is just singing the same old Zionist song of Jewish self-delusion: Islamoblog: 10 Most Successful Muslim Rappers.
Max Blumethal worked with the SPLC. I think Max is a publicity hound at best…but I suspect that he probably works (or would like to) for certain factions within our government. Sniffing out all the supremacists, that is anyone he cares to label as such. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhCbHZPwEEQ
Zellnik is Zio-lite. A one state solution is the only reasonable solution give the water situation of that area. "Israelis use 240 cubic metres of water a person each year, against 75 cubic metres for West Bank Palestinians and 125 for Gazans, the bank said. Increasingly, West Bank Palestinians must rely on water bought from the Israeli national water company, Mekorot." Israel's greed for land will turn to Israel's greed for water. Jews and Jewish culture will not disappear in Israel even if the majority happened to be of another religion. One of the points of pride that Jews have is the longevity of their people as a group. Why would we expect that to change now? Historically Jews have done very well in Muslim lands. Quoting one of the U.S. presidents admired by Jews, “Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself” http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/27/israe...
Isn't it perfect? They hate us, so naturally, we must wipe them out. Besides, it's perfectly legal.
max b is one the good guys. splc has done good work of course. but what is all this about hate? it's nuts. Under questioning, Attorney Gen. Holder was surprisingly forthright in admitting that the hate bill is not intended to protect everyone, or even the majority. He said only historically oppressed minorities were to benefit. This means Jews, blacks, homosexuals, women, etc. Holder made it clear that if a white Christian male, including a serviceman or police officer, was the victim of a violent hate crime by any minority he would have to find redress from traditional law. He could not avail himself of the triple penalties and rapid government/justice system response given a protected minority. Source: Vdare blog
True. Jew is a vanishing brand.
Well, no one has answered. Why not Nevada? Maybe you think it's a joke. Let Israel bequeath all of itself to the Arabs for about a trillion; the Saudis are good for it. Use that to solve Yankee debt and purchase a big whack of Nevada. Yo dhimmi, a home in Shtetl Reno? Whaddya say?
Max is dangerous because he is well connected and promoted. He likes playing the race card, exposing the white racist, be they Jewish or not. One of the ways to control populations is to pit peoples/races against one another. Max does this. In his recent Israeli video he filmed young drunk kids shooting their mouths off. You'll find this behavior amongst Pals, Chinese, Indians, you name it. It's what young people do like it or not. Max's video did nothing to move understanding forward, it only stirred the shit pot and got him a boat load of publicity. Max is not one of the good guys. The SPLC and Holder are motivated by revenge, not justice.
i happen to agree the splc has an agenda. their hate list is pretty long. when will you be on their hate list? i have been known to make an intemperate remark, or repeatedly visited mondoweiss.
The answer remains no. Let the Saudis build the Palestinian territories.
Honey…if you moved all the Israelis Jews in Israel to Nevada then you would have a N-I conflict just like the I-P conflict. We have enough problems…go to Miami…..the Fla Jews hate the Cubans, the Cubans hate the Jews..everyone else is in the cross fire over if Jews should have the say so over this that the other or Cubans should have the say so over this that the other. Fla is like two huge ghettos with word of mouth maps for gentiles who want to avoid the fray. It's a nut house.
Great post – a couple of thoughts I have heard that only about 300,000 Palestinian refugees from Israel want to return to Israel. Most of those outside former Palestine that want to return, would prefer to go to the future Palestine. At those levels, it strikes me that their wishes could be met without compromising the Jewish nature of Israel. continued…..
FWIW, I don't think that the US is the only country to have responsibilities here. As President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad repeatedly remind us (for his own nefarious purposes so please STFU), the occupation of Palestine (yeah, I know all about the recent claims that Israel would exist without the Holocaust – STFU!!!!) was a result of genocide committed by Europeans rather than Palestinians (yeah, I know all about the Mufti of Jerusalem so please STFU) so Europeans have a major responsibility for Israel & Palestine. So as well as what Mr. Zellnik suggests, I would also suggest that the Europeans pay off some of their debt to both Israelis and Palestinians by granting both countries membership of the EU at the same time. OK, this might piss off some Europeans who don't want any countries with too many brown people in the EU but Merkel, Sarkozy and Brown/Cameron should tell them to STFU because it is going to save the EU so much money because they will not have to rebuild Palestinian infrastructure every time the Israelis blow it up.
Then you can go to war with the Mormons next door for their land. I'm sure you could amend the Old Testament one more time to justify that.
Are you sure women are "historically oppressed minorities?" We're actually a MAJORITY of the population!
Getting on the SPLC's hate list is actually a rite of passage for paleocons. I've heard people joke about it. "Hey! I've been written up in Hatewatch!" I'm not sure there are any conservatives of any standing who haven't "troubled" the SPLC with their "extremism."
it is obvious mockery to refer to other venues on Planet Earth as alternate Jewish homelands. obviously the historical turbulence of the last 130 years was primarily European in nature, but the Jewish people exist or existed and to deny the historical existence of the jews seems to be common and is actually intellectual laziness. which historian questions the existence of a jewish state in that area of the world? so you feel it shouldn't uproot the palestinians, bravo for you. you can only see today tomorrow and an hour ago. the jews have existed a while and they aren't on your intellectual map? so maybe read a little kafka, a little buber and a little walter benjamin and learn that history is a reality and this facile nevada business is just intellectual laziness.
Witty, your intellectual dishonesty will not soften her words. The meaning is quite clear and it exhibits deep narcissism/denial/self-delusion within hard-line Zionist ideology. And by the way, why do you always bring up Hamas? Why don't YOU go to Gaza, Witty? After all that has happened, you still present this conflict as if both sides have created equal problems and are both equal logistically (in every sense). You frequently make theoretical suggestions that imply you're some kind of professional in conflict-resolution but you're clearly biased and it's demonstrated in your consistent white-washing of YOUR constituency's crimes. The lead-up to the Gaza massacre/incursion for example.
See this is my point. We have not ONE Zionist on this blog that is reasonable. They never take into account the countless human rights abuses and the institutionalized racism of Zionism. Witty for example, never mentions the water theft by Israel. He never mentions the disparity in deaths of civilians. He does not even address the Amnesty International report that concluded that Hamas did not use human shields as Israel's supporters often claim of Israel's enemies. He did not address the US Army War College's report of the Lebanon 2006 war as well. His perspective is very narrow – convenient for him, because if he factors all the above in (facts) then he has to change his conclusions (from harping on Hamas to focusing on the vastly more powerful entity, of which the responsibility falls upon). Intellectually dishonest to a disgraceful and shameless degree.
Like it is unlikely that the Arabs will convey what Israel wants them to convey in exactly the same affirming terms, it is unlikely that the Palestinians will get the apology that they insist on in the terms that they or you suggest. I don't suggest, and I am not in a position to impose any "obligations". I am only addressing a moral/ethic issue. But if that feels fascist to you, fine with me. It's none of my beeswax. … Seeds….
I read that differently. He points out to David that his use of "citizen" leads into a trap, and it does. Citizens versus nationals. "Only Jews can be nationals" The usual question: Can Israel be both Jewish and democratic?
Again; you misunderstand "—"
OK, this might piss off some Europeans Not me. But strictly the vision of a Mediterranean Union closely associated with the EU does sounds even more interesting.
Two points. 1) Hitler left us a terrible legacy. 2) The long history of antisemitism has a certain advantage too, you don't need to bother about what people out there think about you, they will be jealous when you are success- and powerful anyway. But can you choose to be weak? See 1.
ger toshev
Judaism was a proselytizing religion at least as far back as Hasmonean times (read the Book of Esther). Ethnic Ashkenazim have no ancestral connection to Palestine whatsoever. They constitute an ethnicity that developed locally in Eastern Europe and Southern Russia. In Stolen and Occupied Palestine ethnic Ashkenazim are racist murderous genocidal invaders, interlopers, and thieves. When any fanatic extremist racist Zionist babbles about the Jewish homeland, he shows his true face as Jewish Nazi scum more vile than German Nazis ever were. This point cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly in the confrontation with Zionism, which all decent people must scorn, hate, and despise.
Yes, all in all, it was just that. Much appreciated, Mister Zellnik.
Given those two points, there's merely the question of what will be the next configuration of world war players?
Nice informal round table. One progressive asks another what he thinks and he regurgitates the same crap over and over again. Of course they ignore the Palestinian's rejection of every peace offer, including the very generous offer made by Olmert. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti... The Israelis will decide what type of government they have. They are the one's who have to live or die with that decision, not some New York playwright. Zellnik's vision of 2 states becoming 1 state is absurd. The Palestinian State will be just like the Hamas run Gaza Strip, a repressive, backward police state. The Israelis will want no part of dhimmihood in a Hamas State.
Have Jews survived? Israel has survived, but what trace remains of the culture of European Jewry, yiddish culture, the inspiring achievements of our poets, composers, scientists? All that has been replaced by a gangster state full of zombies. Jews in name alone. In the States, we have Bernie Madoff and Adam Sandler and riff raff like Joseph Liebermann, Abe Foxman, Israel Singer, Daniel Pipes and Alan Dershowitz. Jews? Where are the Jews? I see no Jews.
Hard to wish the Israeli plague on anyone. Even Nevadans.
Golda Meir's meaning IS quite clear, and that is that it harms Jews to have to spend so much of their attention on military. It is a statement of the degree that Jewish culture VALUES social justice and spirituality as it chosen fixation, and that the militarist is an unnatural state. You twist that healthy message. If only some Palestinian leader would declare similarly, that they experience some remorse some loss from their militancy.
Amend the Hebrew scriptures? Oh, I forgot, you're one of those ignorant Islamic fascists parroting the party line.
What you heard, and the truth, are two separate things. As the Palestinians refused to adhere to the conditions set down in the relevant UN resolution, giving them a limited opportunity to return, there is no reason to allow any entry of any Palestinian.
Believing that Golda Meir valued social justice or spirituality is either total ignorance or complete mendacity or incontrovertible proof of sociopathy: Zionist Indoctrination: Boston Grammar Schools. Even when I was sympathetic to Zionism, it did not take much research to conclude that Meir was scum.
joachim martillo- your name will be dust in the wind, when zionists like martin buber and gershon scholem will be studied. prize the moments of your life and semi coherence, for when you are gone, you will be deep deep gone.
Max seems to be a bit superficial I think. And the SPLC has ties to the JDL don't they?
I have little doubt that Martin Buber and Gershom Scholem will be studied far into the future because they are primary examples of racist Jewish Zionist intellectual perversion and mendacity: Zionists Out of the Peace Movement: Shahak on Lying About Judaism
Did the early zionist mock themselves intentionally by considering and advocating for other venues on Planet Earth as alternative jewish homelands? Who's denying the corrosive quality of the organized jews in the diaspora over centuries? BTW, Kafka's bug is easily a metaphor for goys, also. I think Kafka would have agreed if anyone had asked him. He was a jew, yes, but also a beneficiary of Western (goy) culture, and ditto Buber.
What's your version of an optimal solution for the Warsaw Ghetto at that time and place? just curious…
Witty, the American hag Meir is equal to Herr Himmler (equally ugly) in her thinking. Her world was at least as much zero sum game. Whether one pretends inconvenient humans do not exist, or whether one pretends they shouldn't exist, the result by physical force is way too similar. Nazis or Zionists, what's the difference when the rubber hits the road?
The only difference is that Himmler was fought directly by goy troops while Meir was paid by goy taxpayers.
And you parrot the Hebrew fascist line–why should anyone think the Hebrew scriptures are the way to see, unless they are born and taught so like any Hitler Youth?
And the Americans will pay for whatever the AIPAC-Israel coalition decides. Shear those goy sheep! Milk those goy cows. Take full advantage of those Christian values you don't subscribe to yourself!
"The jews are our misfortune." Gives yet more meaning to that historical european saying, yes?
faced with the necessity of survival of course other venues were considered. kafka's bug is easily a metaphor for the jew as treated by the culture that twenty years after his death treated the jews like bugs. the rhetoric is mudlike here. repeat after me: mirror mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all. and the mirror always agrees with you, thors and citizen, i'm sure. not an ounce of self doubt in your self love, praise the lord who created you.
they had other options in the first place but they chose to plop their fat asses on top of the Arabs. They are clever, they wanted to be right there to guard the goods they usurp. The idiots claim they were actually there in history and have some sort of connection. The same idiots who call the Semites of the land anti-Semitic. They know we are onto them but they have already gotten away with murder for too long, now they enjoy puffing their chests and daring us to do something about it. They wave to us from the White House! Right witty, Jake and Ismail? You guys don't have to rebut all the obvious charges, just repeat the same old lies that don't even make sense because you can, you enjoy it. It's a part of the flaunting.
What condition in which resolution – please be specific. If you mean Article 11 of UN Resolution 194, then that is quite specific: Article 11 reads: Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible. It does not define any time limit on the return of refugees, it only requires them to live at peace with their neighbours once they do so.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1097932.html Last update – 21:46 05/07/2009 Fayyad: Jews can be equal citizens in Palestinian state By Haaretz Service Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad on Saturday said that Jews would enjoy freedom and full civil rights in a future Palestinian state, according to a report in the Aspen Daily News. "Jews, to the extent they choose to stay and live in the state of Palestine, will enjoy those rights and certainly will not enjoy any less rights than Israeli Arabs enjoy now in the state of Israel," Fayyad said in response to a question from former CIA director James Woolsey at the Aspen Institute's Ideas Festival.
Hamas has tried twice to form a unity government with Fatah. The first time they tried it, Abbas was told by Washington to reverse course and launch a coup to overthrow Hamas. A second round fo talks were due shortyl after Israel launched it's attack on Gaza. A unity government is not something Israel wants, because dealing with a weak and isolated Fatah leadership is the best way to extract the best deal when it comes time to talk. Hamas are not as easy to push around.
Well put Citizen, Israel elected twoi of it's former terrorist leaderst to the office of PM after all. It' so typica of the right wing and the Zionists. They insist that history begins at a certain date, ignoring all that came before it.
The plight of the Jews isn't my problem. Land, culture and demographic issues are becoming problems in the U.S. without taking on further responsibilities. I guess you are serious. Are you? My take is that the people who have a need to see strong Jewish communities and the continuance of a vibrant Jewish culture aren't concerned about my community or whether or not my culture is extended into the future. I would bet that most would be hostile to my needs, wants or concerns. There is no reason for most Americans to support Israel or its fifth-column. Why sell Nevada when all we really have to do is cut Israel off, and do what is best for our own nation?
Talk about social engineering! This is about as stupid as the zionists' original idea. The situation in Palestine isn't going away, and some BS two-state solution propossed by a Jewish ideologue isn't my burden, no matter when or where it was proposed. I understand that the Palestinians are the victims, and I would rather fund them than the Israelis and their supporters abroad, but I would rather see vibrant Jewish communities in Palestine than in the U.S., if the last 60+ years is any indication of what vibrant Jewish comunities do to a host nation.
You almost slipped one by us! TWO democratic states? Who's going to ensure that? Shortcomings aside, how many democratic states are there in the middle east (not counting Israel)? Now that Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, how is the democratic process functioning there? Who will ensure democracy in the newly formed state in the west bank? Women's rights? Religious freedom? Free elections? Israel has a long way to go and much to improve. But you obviously have no clue as to the extent democracy is valued and practiced among its citizens, Arab and Jew alike. And the political debate- something even Americans should envy. People freely express their opinions, including those similar to yours. Try that in Rafiah or Hebron! A Palestinian state will be created. But how it will look? Don't fool yourself. Instead, try working on a way to create the first Arab Democracy!
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