If you need any indication that the discourse on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is changing in the US just check out this report from ABC News – Israel at War … Over Road Signs?: Israeli Transport Ministry Accused of Plan to Ethnically Cleanse Road Signs.
The story outlines plans the new Israeli Minister of Transportation has to change the "the names of more than 2,500 road signs, doing away with Arabic place
names and replacing them with simple translations of Hebrew names." Some examples given would be dropping the Arabic al-Nasra for Nazareth and using the Hebrew Natsrat, and more controversially dropping the Arabic name for Jerusalem Al Quds and only using the Hebrew Yerushalayim. Although a Ministry spokesperson says the changes are being made solely for the benefit of drivers, a communications adviser to the Minister is a bit more upfront, saying opposition to the changes are an "attempt by anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist elements to annul Israel's
identity as a Jewish and democratic state. Anyone willing to refer to
Jerusalem as al-Quds is collaborating with the Palestinian propaganda."
As context the article highlights Avigdor Lieberman's success in the recent Israeli elections, and it's clear that his right wing views are opening space for the US media to talk truth about Israel in a way that it hasn't before. One example from the article is the explanation that "Israel's Arab community makes up 20 percent of the country's population
and many have long perceived of themselves as second-class citizens." Weren't these the same 20% that used to be held up as evidence that Israel is a flourishing democracy? More interesting is that the term "ethnic cleansing" is not actually used by anyone in the story, but was added by ABC News to help clarify the story in the subtitle.
When Ilan Pappe came out with The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine in 2007 applying the term "ethnic cleansing" to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was considered controversial and on the cutting edge. Less than two years later, ABC News has adopted the term. Anyone think this might be why the Israel Project is trying to co-opt it for their own purposes?
co-opting is what they do. Look up Martin Luther King Memorial Forest.
Here's my take: Bibi and Lieberman are bad for Israeli PR, and leave a bad taste in the mouths of most American "liberals", Jewish, gentile, whatever. Bibi and friends are just more honest than the norm. Sooner or later, Bibi's coalition will fall, most likely to be replaced by something a little slicker in terms of its PR palatability. Nothing will change of course. The replacement government will be more dishonest–preaching kumbaya to the West, all the while continuing its ethnic cleansing. But it will be pitched by the powers-that-be in Washington as a true "honest partner for peace." That is my fear.
Is it a good thing that ABC reports on the 'ethnic cleansing' of road signs, but refuses to admit that Palestinian humans have been massacred and displaced for over 60 years? That speaks more to the insanity of the situation than any sort of progress.
quote – "Anyone willing to refer to Jerusalem as al-Quds is collaborating with the Palestinian propaganda." it is all propaganda to these people, which is exactly what they are involved in doing here..
I think there is some shifting nevertheless. You could sense it since the last Gaza massacre. Israel's narrative is built on victimhood. The last was so obviously brutal that it did awake some conscious people. Gaza was under siege for two years before the massacre, but you didn't see or hear about almost bi-weekly civil humanitarian adventures by sea and by land led by nobel peace prize winners and members of parliament.
They started with the road signs and I said nothing…..
A little OT bu this was a new twist for me: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1100122.html or how it is not illegal for Jews to shoot at Palestinians in the Westbank.
Let's hope you're right.
No, they started killing Jews and you said nothing.
The only people that are being constantly ethnically cleansed are Jews. Take Gaza as an example.
Would you have gone out of your way to save an SS man in danger?
Ethnic leasing requires one ethnic group to be driven out of their homes by another. In the case of Gaza, the Jewish settlers, were there illegally and were relocated to the West Bank (again illegally) by their elected government under an agreement made by their government. that's why it was called a unilateral withdrawal. So you see Eitan, only the Arabs are being ethnically cleansed.
Seems you just threw out your humanity with the bathwater.
Except they were there legally and they were ethnically cleansed from the area. This is the second time Jews were ethnically cleansed from Gaza. The Palestinians ethnically cleansed Hebron, twice, and Jerusalem, once. Jewish residency in Samaria and Judea is quite legal. Perhaps you should go to school?
What do you think they get when someone like Eitan just spit the complete opposite of the truth in short, awkward sentences with no reasonable or testimonial backing of any kind. It's like an exercise they do or something. Remember in the midst of the Gaza massacre when they were burning people alive with white phosphorus and then go like "the Israeli army is the most ethical army in the world"? (yeah right http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-ea... ). What they probably think they are doing is pushing the argument in the other direction as far as they can and confuse well-intentioned people into thinking "ha! The issue seems very complicated for my busy brain," or something that would effectively get those people to go 'mind their business,' if you will. A form of indirect paralyzing of judgment, and consequently action.
It's just a silly question in response to your silly comment. There are no Jews being killed around me, and you can't go back in time to save SS men.
"Except they were there legally and they were ethnically cleansed from the area." Ethnic leasing requires one ethnic group to be driven out of their homes by another. In the case of Gaza, the Jewish settlers, were there illegally and were relocated to the West Bank (again illegally) by their elected government under an agreement made by their government. No they were not there legally and they were not ethnically cleansed. The settlers were relocated to the West Bank (also illegal) by the Israeli government, not the Palestinians. Gaza has never belonged to Israel, and the settlements were never legal. "The Palestinians ethnically cleansed Hebron, twice, and Jerusalem, once." Hebron in occupied territory and thus the Jewish settlements were illegal (violating the 4th Geneva Convention). "Jewish residency in Samaria and Judea is quite legal. " Samaria and Judea is occupied territory and thus the Jewish settlements were illegal (violating the 4th Geneva Convention). What school did you go to? Play School?
Mona, Zionist propagandists like Eitan knwo they are on the wrong side of history and have been so indoctrinated with lies that they cannot bring themselves to accept reality. They're only option is to repeat the lies like broken record or go away. I'm not sure what they hope to achieve, because they are clearly unable to convince anyone of their false arguments. Perhaps they are trying to elicit an over reaction and hope to derail the debate, but the tactic is so old and warn out, it doesn't work anymore.
You know damn well that the Geneva Conventions are meaningless, and practically everything done by the UN after 1948 is illegitamate. The Balfour Declaration, on the other hand, is beyond question–at least certain interpretations are!
Great post. I noticed on the link that there are 4 comments on the piece and none are sympathetic to the usurping entity. It would be so cool if Ismail and Jake went there and started posting their insanity for all to see.
The fact is that Israel's most senior legal counsel warned the Israeli government in 1967 that building settlements n the land would be illegal and violate the 4th GC, so they knew in advance they were breaking international law.
Lieberman is out, I wonder which Israeli political whore will volunteer to join Netanyahu's government to make it look moderate and friendly towards the Americans? Police: Case against Lieberman solid Investigators present AG Mazuz with findings, according to which there is sufficient evidence to indict FM for money laundering, fraud, breach of trust. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3746644...
I think it's great to have Ismail and Jake on the forum. They are entertaining if nothing else and it's always interesting to hear an alternative POV, when indeed they bother to engage in a debate and not just heckle from the sidelines..
Shingo, this is incorrect on many counts. Most families affected by the Gaza Expulsion still lack homes. It is perfectly legal for Jews to live anywhere in the land of Israel.
The Israeli army is the most ethical army in the world
Hebron is NOT occupied territory Hebron is the birthplace of the Jewish people and our second Holy city. In fact our sages tell us that Hebron is one of the cities in Israel that our enemies can never claim is not our inheritance after it was legally purchased multiple times.
It is legal under international law for Jews to build and live anywhere in Judea Samara and Gaza
All of the road signs in the West bank are in 3 languages. on top is Hebrew (selbstverstaendlich) below is english at the bottom is arabic (bien sur) they already use Yerushaliyem as the Arabic name for Jerusalem on the signs. Nablus is called "shechem" when translated to English. the signs will make great Erez Israel memorabilia when it all falls over.
"It is legal under international law for Jews to build and live anywhere in Judea Samara and Gaza" Only if they are given permission from the Palestinian authority, otherwise it's illegal.
Hebron is in the West Bank and thus is not part of Israel. Iraq is the birthplace of the Jewish people. Who cares if it's Israel's second Holy city? It's not part of Israel. Your sages are religious authorities, but have no concept of international law of national sovereignty. A number of your sages advocate mass murder. Hebron was probably stolen like all the other occupied land.
"The Israeli army is the most ethical army in the world" It's comments like that which make Israel so discredited and mistrusted. The IDF is simply an extension of the terror gangs that founded Israel. No occupying force can claim to be moral. Ze'ev Shiff, Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha'aretz, has told us that the IDF is a terrosit group. He said that : "The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets." So not only are the IDF a terror group, they are cowards. Furthermore, the IDF are also oblivious to the laws of even Israel, having ignored the Israeli Supreme Court Ruling that foreign journalists were to be allowed into Gaza.
"Most families affected by the Gaza Expulsion still lack homes." Rubbish. All 8000 of them weer compensated (probably with US tax payer money) and given homes in the West Bank. Yes it is perfectly legal for Jews to live anywhere in the state of of Israel. The West bank is not in the state of Israel. Nor is East Jerusalem, Gaza or the Golan Heights.
You have no right to say Jews cannot live in Hebron. Not you, not the Chinese, not the Arabs not the French, nobody has the right to tell a Jew he cannot live in his holy city. Otherwise split Mecca in half and give it to the Chinese, Give Salt Lake City to the French. Hebron is Jewish land
We go through great lengths to protect citizens expending millions of dollars to do so. Ha'aretz is bunk, Shiff is a turncoat
Wrong, All 8000 were NOT given homes and most are still refugees. Their land in gaza was stolen and now terrorist hamas shoots rockets from burnt down and desecrate synagogue. The west bank is Jewish lank. Jerusalem is Jewish land. Golan Heights is Jewish land.
Yes you do go through great lengths to steal land, kill palestinians and expend millions of dollars given to you by the US taxpayer. Ha'aretz is eh most highly respected paper in Israel. and Shiff is one of the most highly respected military correspondents in Israel. The IDF are notorious for using Palestinian children as targets and targeting civilians. The IDF dropped thousands of cluster bombs over Southern Lebanon at the end of the 2006 war with Lebanon, which they knew woudl affect children and farmers. The IDF dropped white phosphorous on civilians in Gaza, which affected women and children. The IDF have been caught repeatedly using human shields. The IDF routinely invade the houses of Palestinians in the West Bank, and were exposed squatting in the homes of Palestinian families and humiliating them. Moshe Dayan said that the IDF "…must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." Menachem Begin gave a speech that represented a picture, "of an Israel wantonly inflicting every possible measure of death and anguish on civilian populations, in mood reminiscent of regimes which neither Mr Begin nor I would dare to mention by name (ie. Nazis)". The IDF are the scum of the earth.
All 8000 were given money and homes in the West Bank. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/954698.html They were all compensated for their land in Gaza, even though their homes were illegal. The West Bank has NEVER been Jewish land. Jerusalem is shared with the Palestinians. The Golan Heights belongs to Syria. As the Gaza settlers left, the destroyed everything and left nothing, so the synagogue was desecrated by the settlers, who couldn't bare to leave it in the hands of the Palestinians.
it is not up to me whether Jews can or cannot live in Hebron. Hebron is in the West Bank and the West bank is Palestinian territory. Jews can live there with the permission of the PA. The Chinese nerer claimed any rights to Mecca and the French have shown no interest in Salt Lake City. Hebron is in the West Bank, which now belongs to the Arabs, who may or may not decide to allow Jews to live there.
Ha'aretz is not highly respected. The IDF is the most moral army in the world. Your constant mention of Nazis shows your inability to argue on a current and rational level
From your article "Nine Israeli families have moved to a valley deep in the West Bank, " We are talking about 8000 people so again your "All 8000" statement is false since the majority are still refugees. Judea and Samara (recently dubbed west bank) has been Jewish land for thousands of years. Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the Jewish nation The Golan is Jewish land and has been in Jewish hands for longer than it ever was in Syrian
By your logic then if the Arabs show interest in France then they can have it? If the Chinese show INTEREST in Mecca they can have it? Hebron is in the Land of Israel and now that and always has been and always will be allowed to Jews. The contention that Arabs may or not allow Jews in our own holy land is racist, and immoral.
Shingo congratulations in patience in responding to the bot. My god almighty, this guy sounds like his lines were written by a 1950's sci fi writer.
I'm not sure that means that Lieberman is out. Israeli politicians have a penchant for being accused of, and sometimes charged with, corruption crimes while in office. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are forced to leave the government.
"The Israeli military used reckless force during the fighting in Gaza earlier this year, resulting in needless deaths and damage, a group of former Israeli soldiers charged in a report Wednesday. In testimonies collected by the organization Breaking the Silence, formed by Israeli army reservists, soldiers who participated in the Gaza fighting describe demolishing homes for no reason and using firepower beyond what was necessary given the relatively light resistance they encountered." http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/worl... "Now, some of the Israeli soldiers who took part say they were urged by commanders to shoot first and worry later about sorting out civilians from combatants. Accordingly, they say, the force went into Gaza with guns blazing. In print and video testimony published tomorrow by the activist group Breaking the Silence, the 30 soldiers say the Israeli army’s imperative was to minimise its own casualties to ensure Israeli public support for the operation. “Better hit an innocent than hesitate to target an enemy,” is a typical description by one unidentified soldier of his understanding of instructions repeated at pre-invasion briefings and during the 22-day operation, from December 27 to January 18. “If you’re not sure, kill. Fire power was insane. We went in and the booms were just mad,” says another. “The minute we got to our starting line, we simply began to fire at suspect places."" (snip) "Soldiers describe a “Neighbour Procedure” in which civilians were forced to enter suspect buildings ahead of troops. They cite cases of civilians advancing in front of a soldier resting his rifle on their shoulder. The report repeats charges – denied by Israel – that white phosphorus was fired indiscriminately into Gaza streets. It cites “massive destruction was unrelated to any direct threat to Israeli forces” and “permissive” rules of engagement. “We did not get instructions to shoot at anything that moved,” says one soldier. “But we were generally instructed: if you feel threatened, shoot. They kept repeating to us that this is war and in war opening fire is not restricted.” To strip away cover for Hamas fighters, aerial bombardment, artillery, demolition charges and armoured bulldozers razed whole areas including gardens, and olive and orange groves. “We didn’t see a single house that was intact . . . that was not hit. The entire infrastructure, tracks, fields, roads, was in total ruin. The D-9 (bulldozer) had gone over everything,” the report quoted a soldier as saying. “There was a clear feeling, and this was repeated whenever others spoke to us, that no humanitarian consideration played any role in the army at present. The goal was to carry out an operation with the least possible casualties for the army.”" http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/worl...
Ha'aretz is the most respected and most cited resource from Israel. The IDF is frequently found in violation of war crimes, and crimes against humanity. So much so that even IDF soldiers are speaking out against the crimes they have committed and been ordered to commit. The IDF routinely inflicts collective punishment, which the Nazis were famous for and routinely targets civlians. The founders of Israel received suport and financing from facist groups affiliated with the Nazis. Anyone who suggests that any army,. let alone the IDF, is the most moral army in the world is clear not rational.
Yes that was an old article, which shows that nine families got housing right away, The rest received housing shortly after. Judea and Samara might have been Jewish, but Israel is only 60 years old. It is now Palestinian territory. Jerusalem is the not the capital of Israel, Tel Aviv is. There is no Jewish nation and no nation recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Most of Jerusalem is Arab. The Golan is Syrian land that Israel annexed.
Interest in a piece of land clearly not sufficient. The Palestinians have occupied the land for hundreds of not thousands of years, so it belongs to them. Hebron is in the in the west Bank, which is not Israeli territory. It is not Jewish land, pleasure there is no such thing. "The contention that Arabs may or not allow Jews in our own holy land is racist, and immoral." Israel decides if Arabs may or may not be allowed to build in Israel, therefore by your logic,. Israel is racist, and immoral. Good observation. I agree.
Thanks syvanen, Yes I know all about Eitan's type. They thing they can bludgeon their reality into people by using Goebbels techniques of repeating a lie often enough. it seems to be a common tactic among teh Zionist fundamentalists. It's no big deal really. All he's doing is working himself up into a frenzy and feeding his psychosis. I just hope he coped the the reality of a Palestinian state that asserts it's sovereignty and doesn't let Israelis push it around. I suspect that many Zionists will crack of simply lose their mind when the West Bank is taken from them.
Terrorism created Israel, propaganda maintained it for 60 years, now it's all just inane. The last 8 years have been all around horrible for everyone on the planet….but it has put the bad guys right in the spot light and high time, I say. In a way I'm glad it all happened. S. Lebanon, Gaza, Nablus, Iraq, Afghanistan, the economy, all of it. Just because we can all see the bad guys standing there with their pants down. The only people left who deny it are other bad guys. Anymore when someone says (in person) something stupid like Palestinians and Hizbolla are terrorists etc. I just walk away, I don't educate I don't debate. To me they are either too stupid to waste my time with or they are bad and that's that. For those who think (sincerely) about a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine, they are just naive. They will have to watch how it plays out and realize it's an old game. This way or that way, all the ways are a game for the Israelis and the stradagy is to fool the people long enough to clear more Palestinian land. 60 years of Zionist bullshit and a US that plays dumb.
Eitan quite aptly named his or her self after an IDF Israeli drone.
I get the feeling that he, along with Jake, dhimmi and Ismail and contacting their Hasbara mother ship, reporting that the latest tactics aren't working and aksing for help.
Land is just land. Its not Jewish NOR Palestinian. Thats what constructs fascism. Its PEOPLE that are Jewish or Palestinian.
Eitan, Again and again. Land is not Jewish or Palestinian. People are. Title to land is determined on the basis of consent of the reasonable man test, on the basis of legal transfers of title from one perfected title-holder to another by consented exchange. If title is in a state of imperfection, it takes a color-blind consented court to define compensation from a relative owner to others that have valid basis of contested title. If A Jew in 800 AD owned land in Hebron and converted to Islam, the land does not remain "Jewish land", no matter what Torah or sages say. Land is privately owned and titled. That individuals heirs, then land sales, then some eminent domain takings, determine the title to land. The MOST that Torah can describe to you as a Jew, is to encourage you to undertake to purchase land in a legal manner to settle. The other meaning of the term Jewish land or Palestinian land refers to sovereignty. The borders of a state may be within sovereign Israel, or within sovereign Palestine. That does NOT mean that only Jews own land within Israel. As, in the United States, MANY foreign nationals own land in the US and in Israel for that matter. My mother-in-law owned land in Israel, even as she is an English national. If you desire to affirm Torah, you MUST pay primary attention to what constitutes Jewish values and community. It is NO COINCIDENCE that all references to the promised land are CONDITIONAL. They are all stated "IF you keep my commandments …". The primary consequence of not keeping the commandments are to be dispersed like dust in the wind. And, the commandments are primarily the ten, including "Thou shalt have no other God's before me". "Thou shalt not steal". "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor". "Thou shalt not COVET thy neighbor's possession". That is the paradox of Torah in the modern Zionist setting. Jews can only live in Israel IF they don't covet (combination of mentally desiring/lusting, and actively scheming) others' land. They can desire to reside there, but they cannot extort it. The psychology of lusting after land even through the rationalization of "God gave it to us", and scheming to take it by extra-legal military transfers ultimately to private leaseholds has the Torah-defined consequence of DELAYING the in-gathering. It doesn't matter what x rabbi said, even the Lubavitcher Rebbe at recorded moments. (Please read all that Torah scholars comment, not just the rationalizations that support your land-lust.) There is no Moshe, confidently reporting the obligation of Jews at a mythical time to take the land ONCE. Any assertion to take the land by force under religious presumed authority, is a gamble. And, as it conflicts with the PRIMARY definition of being a Jew, in favor of a secondary interpreted subsequent mission, it is likely a rationalized deviation.
There is substantation for the perfection of title in the hands of Jews to a small proportion of land in the West Bank. To me that seems undeniable based on continuing ownership. And, there is a great deal of unoccupied land, that many Palestinian solidarity people claim was occupied, but without proof on a case by case basis. Jewish titled land is owned by the specific Jewish families. If they desire to transfer title to a Jewish collective entity, that is their right. Asserting title over unoccupied land requires due process in which EVERY contesting individual claim gets heard, NOT ONLY Jewish, and not only Palestinian. In the case where Palestinian villages were overturned and taken by military force, that is NOT unoccupied land by any definition. Even if you are a Torah scholar, and you make that Zealot interpretation, you are expressing ignorance civilly and religiously.
Well put Richard.
Eitan, the newest MondoZionist, took your suggestion.
Richard! Congratulations, you make stark the differences between Judaism and post-modern existential Zionism. Judaism respects the Ten Commandments, Zionism has never heard of them. :-)
Ha'aretz is a rag. The IDF is the most moral army in the world.
The IDF is the most moral army in the world.
Justice created Israel.
Judea and Samaria will always be and always was Jewish territory. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. No nation has the right to tell the Jewish nation where our capital is. The Golan is Jewish land.
Land can belong to people, The Land of Israel belongs to the Nation of Israel.
Concerning Hebron Jews owned the land in Ancient times and they also own it now. Jews own the land by "reasonable man test"
All of the Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish nation. None of it is occupied. No high contacting party, no previous state other than Israeli, No palestinian state, no ottoman state, no british state, no arab state, no crusader state, no roman state but look before that we have a Jewish commonwealth.
Don't be fooled by Richard's misapplication of democratic and color-blind American style legal title and property rights principles to Israel's perverted land ownership principles. Here's a small sample of the difference written in 1987
Conversely, no land outside of Israel rightfully belongs to any member of the Jewish nation. They are trespassers.
The drone is actually named after Eitan the biblical figure. It means strength of firmness. This website always dehumanizes Jews calling them drones, bots, cockroaches, animals snakes
The question is WHY American Jews allow Israeli imbeciles and lunatics to represent our people.
Shingo You're arguing with an Israeli. The guy is plainly out of his fucking mind.
This site HUMANIZES Jews by presenting the voices of Jews who want to uphold human rights and the rule of law against the Nazi savages of Israel.
Theodor wasn't Israel's most senior legal counsel either. At least you are learning and no longer mistaking him for the Supreme Court by calling him the "highest legal authority". He was the lawyer for the Israeli equivalent of the state department. He was wrong. He was assuming that the land was occupied territory from Jordan. However, Jordan didn't have it legally either. BTW, what you said in an earlier post about the Palestinians not being nationals of a State really screws them. If Palestine isn't a State, then the West Bank and Gaza aren't "territories". Under international law, "territory" is a term of art, it doesn't just mean "area of land" it means "area of land under the authority of a State". Since (depending on your point of view) Jordan either was never in rightful authority over the West Bank, or gave up all claims since then (Jordan officially relinquished any claims in 1988), the land isn't territory of Jordan. So either (no State) the Israelis can build there because it isn't occupied territory, or (Palestinians are a State) Israelis can build there because the 4th GC allows building on the occupied territory of States that do not follow the Geneva Conventions.
If the PA is a State, then they are a State that does not abide by the Geneva Conventions and their occupied territory is fair game. If the PA is not a State, then they have no territories and thus there are no occupied territories and the non-territory in Hebron is fair game.
Actually, that isn't quite accurate. The land may not have been an independent country. However, it was territory of other countries. Most recently the British. They ceded it to be an Arab State, which never got off the ground because Jordan swooped in on the West Bank. At the moment, it is most likely Palestinian territory due to the British Mandate. Assuming they are a State. If they aren't a State, then it is Israeli territory. However, if it is occupied from a Palestinian State, then the GCs do not prohibit Israel from transferring its population there because the Palestinian State does not obey the GCs.
Adam Thanks for plugging Pappe's amazing and indispensable book. It should be required reading in Israel, Palestine and the United States. especially, the United States!
British Mandate was put in place specifically for creation of Jewish homeland.
Jews have occupied the land longer and have the sovereign right to build
you try to dehumanizing Jews by calling them bots
I am sane. I am a lovely Israeli
You always call Jews Nazis. It shows your inability to properly make a point. Just go for the low blow and call out the name of our former opressors
Shingo, I contact no one for help. YOU are the one who needs help. You are a flat-earther, capable of ignoring every fact ever presented. As for Hebron, it is an ANCIENT JEWISH CITY and was so until the ARBA ETHNIC CLEANSING THAT MASSACRED OR EXPELLED ALL THE JEWS FROM HEBRON in the 1920's. There. Another fact for you to ignore. Be careful now, Shingo. Don't go too far. You might actually fall off the edge of the earth… in your imaginary world.
Facts entertain you? Whenever I present facts to you ( dozens of times in recent weeks) you have positively vomited on your keyboard – for all to see. You are an ignorant bigot – on this and on all other topics I have see you post on. This is why people who want to ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT A COMPLEX WORLD already ignore you. Simpleton. Shingo.
Pappe and Pilger. The demented twins of false history. Thanks for the reference. Now we all KNOW that it's all a lie. :-)
So you're talking about the jurisdiction of sovereignty? Do you read Torah? The jurisdiction of Israel CHANGED over time, expanded and contracted, then divided.
In some cases. If a Jew that was an heir converted to Islam and took his title with him, that land is no longer Jewish, no matter how you interpret the patriarchs. There is some land that has remained in the hands of individual Jews for a very long time. That land should be allowed to be transferred to those that the title-holders desire.
It DID belong to the Jewish nation at one point, perhaps. It doesn't now. Sovereignty is based on the principle of the consent of the governed. In the West Bank, only a small minority consent to Israel as sovereign.
Both. Jerusalem is both under Israeli Jurisdiction and sovereign Israeli territory while the entire land of Israel belongs to the Jewish nation
All land in Israel is Jewish, this is especially true for Hebron and Jerusalem. There is no case where there is legal landowner that was jewish converted or forced by the sword to convert to Islam as was more often the case
A majority of people between the mediterrenean and the jordan river believe israel is and should be sovereign
What does that mean? There are two questions when people say "the land is ours". One is property (title). One is sovereignty. Questions of title can ONLY be determined on a case by case basis. It is a certainty that not all of the land belongs to individual Jews. Questions of sovereignty can ONLY be determined on the basis of consent of the governed. It does NOT happen by rabbis' decree. ANY conclusion that you personally derive on the basis of decree is a false one. As, the methods adopted by the state and endorsed by the neo-orthodox CONFLICT with the Torah prescriptions of how title is acquired, it is LIKELY that the concept that the "land IS Israel" is CONTRARY to Torah. It is a great sin to rationalize Torah for the purpose of an individual or collective lust.
Thats a lie Eitan. It does not help your or Israel's case to assert lies.
Take a vote if you are that confident. And, then another one in five years, then another one in five years. But, follow Torah, not your rationalization for land-lust. Do you understand the civil danger and religious danger that you propose by that? The civil dangers include the likelihood of very violent civil war, the loss of the rule of law as a basis of governance. The religious dangers include the likelihood of subsequent distintegration and being again blown to the winds, for the rampant and rationalized violation of Torah commandments. If you are asserting this on the basis of scripture, please define citations and references.
Repeating this ad nauseum does not make it true. Its meaningless comments like this that make some of us think you are a computer program and not a real person. If you've got some argument to make, then make it. Mindlessly repeating a false mantra doesn't cut it.
eitanbenshlomo, You are being called a "bot" because of your style of posting here, NOT because you are Jewish. You don't engage or answer any questions, you simply repeat your mantras over and over again and expect to be taken seriously. That kind of posting doesn't gain any respect around here Your belief that the responses to you are all because of your Jewishness is the result of your own mindset, which focuses all of your sense of identity into your Jewishness. If someone here insults you its most likely because they don't like YOU as an individual. To blame it on your Jewishness is a cop-out and a sign of a lack of true self-awareness.
You don't understand the workings of the Geneva Conventions. They apply to all their signatories, which includes Israel, regardless of whether the state or entity or individual that Israel is warring against is a signatory to the Convention. If your analogy was valid then there would be no reason why any other country could not legally occupy Israel and transfer their populations there. Be careful of the arguments you make, because Israel is shooting itself in the foot to make such an argument. What goes around comes around.
But Jake, I thought you "knew" it was a lie before? Where you lying to us?
No land had even been recognizd as belonging to a people. There is no such thing as a land of Israel. There is Palestine, withing which th estate of Israel resides.
No I occsasionally point out that Israel behaves like the Nazis. Even Israel's greatest supporters described Isrel's attack on Gaza as Nazi like. Menachem Begin decroibed Israel as reminiscent of the Nazis too.
no great supporter of israel would call a Jew a nazi.
no its because this website always calls Jews cockroaches, snakes, bots and so on. Having a legitamate opinion people get called bots
Actually Israel is a state that violated the Geneva Conventions when it began building settlements on occuied trritory, as Teodore Meron, the Interntainal Court fo Justice and Israel's Supreme Court have all concluded. The West Bank is intenrationally recognized as Palestinian territory and Hebron resides inside those territories.