This picture was on Andrew Sullivan’s site today, in an automatic-outrage American vein. What does it remind you of on this site? Wonder when the Atlantic’s gonna look at the racism in Israeli society.
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Hey, those people in the picture are just good American citizens reacting to those “media Jews who promote interracial relationships”. How would you like it if some guy in a yamulke told your daughter to sleep with Negroes?
Some of those guys in the yarmulkes are negroes. And socialists!
I should know better than to respond to this, but since when have I been known to “know better”.
There is a whole world of difference between a) identifying as a Jew, or a Christian, or a Japanese on the one hand and
b) advocating suppression to keep alleged members of the “group” in line.
Most normal people, you know, identify with their own culture as a matter of course, and not because of some paranoid conscious effort to keep it cohesive. If organized Jewry has a problem with that, I have a simple solution: Open your own culture to others. Us dirty, commie-loving left-wingers actually believe in different cultures – we only happen to mostly believe that none is inherently better or worse. But we believe in open cultures. A “no one out, very few in”-type Judaism is primitive. Tribal. Cultural incest.
Oh, and one more thing: This…
This is why and how Leftist thought becomes the human-negating enemy of mankind, and led to, for example, the Holocaust, via the totalitarian imposition of Communist logic in Soviet Russia.
… is the most screwed up historical nonsense I have read… well, not to exaggerate… the last 24 hours.
Jews are most certainly not a cohesive group. There are at least three major divides in Jewry, and within that Orthodox, Conservative and Reform denominations. There is no central Jewish authority to ensure cohesivness of doctrine or behavior. Can you please supply some kind of reference for that statement? It obvious arises from anti-Semitism or ignorance. I hope it’s the latter.
“secular-humanist socialist view of the modern world,”
Told you the “secular humanists” would show up! Excuse me, but how is the secular-humanist, whooa, but wait a minute, here it comes:
“This is why and how Leftist thought becomes the human-negating enemy of mankind, and led to, for example, the Holocaust,”
So Hitler was left-wing, a socialist? Oh really? And on what do you base that conclusion?
You are nothing but a frickin right-wing crank. I have never seen a right-wing crank who was not, at bottom, an anti-Semite. I know, I know, some of your best friends are Jews.
So where did the “secular humanism” come in and why do you think there is something Jewish about it?
“In other words, if secular humanist socialist doctrine “
“Secular humanist socialist doctrine” First of all, can you give us a link to that? I mean a link to something which will show us what “secular humanist socialist doctrine” is, besides a figment of your imagination?
And why do you associate Phil Wiess with it? Or any Jews, for that matter?
I’ll say it again: You are just repeating right-wing crank bullshit (Hitler was a Socialist! It even says so in the name!) with a definite anti-semitic slant. You are just too stupid to know it.
“The racist absolutism depicted in the photo may be irrational, but the fear of Communism is not”
Yeah, cause if there was one thing a racist Southern cracker knew about, it was political economy and the disadvanteges of socialism.
But you know something Mr. First, it’s been pretty obvious most of my life, what those people are most afraid of is anybody with a darker skin getting something. That to them, is their socialism.
Mosser wrote: “Jews are most certainly not a cohesive group.”
Oh really?
I think you could understand this point if you tried, Mooser. First, the subject is not Judaism, the religion. It’s Jewishness, the identity. If you have a concept of Jewish identity not based on an antagonism with the non-Jew, please share it with us. After all, one could argue that the whole point of Phil’s site is exactly this search, and you may have noticed that so far he hasn’t been having much success. So help him, and the rest of us, out.
“If you have a concept of Jewish identity not based on an antagonism with the non-Jew, please share it with us.”
Your conception of Jewishness is based on antagonism with the non-Jew? I don’t know if I feel more sorry for you if you are Jewish, or if you are not.
And I wouldn’t worry about Phil, either he has found another way, or his wife, a non-Jew is in trouble.
The idea that Jewish identity is based on antagonism towards non-Jews is a Zionist point of view, possibly.
Gosh, I feel bad for all those Jews who married non-Jews, and Jews who have to work with non-Jews. That antagonism towrds non-Jews must make it very hard. How do they manage?
Mooser – interjecting here, if I may. The “Judaism” (parenthesis deliberate) I grew up with in Israel was absolutely, most certainly based on antagonism towards non Jews. We were taught, literally and figuratively to despise them. And of course to fear that they are planning to do us in. The only shades of grey were that there were certain righteous gentiles. Righteous because they saved jews. That’s about it for righteousness. Oh yes, the scandinavians and the dutch had an exemption of sorts from contempt So you can imagine how much the growing antipathy – and gains in boycott made in Sweden and norway hurt Israelis. It’s like – “but we really liked you!”.
As for American jews, alas, they did not get much respect from israelis either (though we wwould never, never say to their faces what we said behind their backs). But more for being sissies who never served in the army. Of course, that they have money is nice, so we should be nice too. And so we were. But respect?
Point is – the Israeli secular identity is defined virtually in its entirety by the enemies of the jews. jews are what they are not. Entire libraries could be filled by the books and papers written by and about the protocols of the elders of islam. trust me, bernard lewis is sweetness and light compared with the charming texts – and children books – I grew up on.
Thanks for sharing that, Danaa. The Jewish population of Israel is something like 40% of the Jewish population worldwide. No one that I know, or have read on this bog, is saying that every Jew, or even necessarily a majority of Jews, share this feeling and attitude that you describe, but to ignore the attitude and pretend that it doesn’t exist just because it isn’t a universal attitude common to every single Jew is to shut down a discussion that is needed in order for these attitudes to change. White Americans had to confront their own culture’s racist elements and propensities, not because every white American was or is a racist, which they certainly weren’t and aren’t, but because the only way to change the cultural biases is to acknowledge them, and then find ways to negate them, or change them. You can’t change a problem that you won’t admit exists. As Danaa points out, these cultural attitudes and biases among Jews in Israel are rampant, and some of these cultural biases are shared by Jews in America. These attitudes need to be acknowledged, confronted and changed.
Mooser, for someone who claims that he can’t understand Americans because he can’t understand “racist chickenhawkery “, you seem to have a different set of standards when judging groups of people. I can certainly acknowledge and agree that there are elements of RC in American culture. I could also acknowledge that there are elements of racism and chickenhawkery in Jewish culture and among certain self-identified Jewish groups. However, if we were to take what you said about Americans and say it instead about Jews, you’d be up in arms(and perhaps rightly so), ranting about anti-semitism.
The problem that some non-Jews have with that attitude, as I understand it, is that you are being very hypocritical here. If your comment was OK to make about Americans, just a little harmless overgeneralization, then why is it so bad to make the same kind of broad overgeneralization of Jews? Why is it acceptable to criticize Christians or whites as a cohesive group, when Christians or whites are just as diverse as Jews, if not more so, since they encompass many more individuals, but impossible to criticize Jews as a group? It comes off as if you think that Jews must be treated differently and are an exception to the rule of human behavior and responsibility. And that kind of thinking that you appear to espouse, BTW, is anti-semitic.
If you accuse anyone who questions or criticizes any aspect of Jewish group behavior of anti-semitism, you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy for yourself. For the most part, the only ones who will argue with you are anti-semites, because you will have effectively shut down any one else who is not anti-semitic, by your own carelessly thrown epithets.
I half-expect to be called an anti-semite for what I just said. I hope I am wrong about that, but if I have to face an insult (and I do consider it an insult) to make my point, well then so be it. There are negative elements and attitudes in present day Jewish culture and attitudes , in Israel and to a lesser extent in the US, that are providing an underpinning and faulty rationale for the oppression of the Palestinians. Until these are acknowledged and challenged, they will not change. Jewish culture is no different or worse than any other culture in terms of its negative aspects, but that does not mean that it is acceptable to deny those negative aspects,or to shut down any discussion. Sometimes that discussion might lead to anti-semitic remarks being made, but, in my opinion, those can be countered much more effectively than by simply shouting “Anti-semite!”.
Tree – what you said frames the issues really well. It’s always a bit funny to see the same people who may be quick to generalize about a larger group they belong to (say, whites) are sometimes even quick erto claim to abhor generalizations when applied to the more specific group of which they are part (say, jews; or males, or females, etc). genralizations to me do serve a purpose – mostly to identify overarching patterns of behavior. They may apply only at the margins to many members, but the patterns do have a way of extending their reach, even to the margins, so it doesn’t hurt to pay attention to the patterns (though it may be a waste of time, but to each their own). Why some people become so much more defensive than others at the merest fling of a general statement can unfortunately be answered only in the specifics that pertain to that person.
I, for one, agree rather wholeheartedly with what you said and will raise you one – in due course. You are hereby designated a not-so-anti-semitic member in good standing of the human race. Best I can do (seeing that I’m still of the tribe, if hovering at the margins…)
Mooser: “Gosh, I feel bad for all those Jews who married non-Jews, and Jews who have to work with non-Jews. That antagonism towrds non-Jews must make it very hard. How do they manage?”
By not making “Jewishness” the center of their identity.
But for all those people who DO make “Jewishness” the organizing principle of their idenitity (you, perhaps?), are you going to answer my question and suggest an alternative to the old us-vs-them?
Yes, I was expecting someone to cite or link to Kevin MacDonald. The voice of the Master.
Remarkably, Mooser says, “Jews are most certainly not a cohesive group.” (Emphasis on NOT).
Really? If Jews are “not” a cohesive group, how do you explain the extraordinary political power of AIPAC? How is one supposed to interpret the fact that there are so many very active Jewish organizations operating in the U.S. and in every country with more than a dozen Jewish residents, all seemingly in contact with one another? Why are there so many Jewish publications in America devoted exclusively to matters of Jewish interest?
This is all pretty strong evidence of tribal cohesiveness on the part of American and worldwide Jewry. What’s wrong with that? In itself, nothing, actually. So why do you so vehemently deny the obvious, and why do you think stating the obvious is anti-semitic?
They remind me of the dual citizenship Israeli settlers–oh yeah, an awful lot of them were born in the USA too.
Remember when Dershowitz attacked M&W for saying “Israel was explicitly founded
as a Jewish state and citizenship is based on the principle of blood kinship.”? Dersh wrote that using the words “blood kinship” is synonymous with making
the infamous “blood libel” charge leveled against Jews in the past.
“This mendacious emphasis on Jewish ‘blood’ is a favorite of neo-Nazi propaganda.”
(See Setting the Record Straight, p. 10.)
Racism is the road to mental decomposition, whether as seen in the deep south in the USA, the north, or in Israel. It is not a button which the elite push for their own purposes, something they can blame on their economic condition, etc. i have posted this before, here is Israel a couple of years down the road (or actually now) –
THE CONDITION
Oh, I see, Chris Moore is a glibertarian.
He is a “lip-ertarian” that does not know what he is talking about Mooser….lol
you didn’t know? Well there seem to be all kind of libertarians and some obviously have a hard right bent. But considering the communicative fit you just exhibited you really aren’t familiar with Ed/Chris Moore’s basic mental architecture by now?
I know, I am repeating myself but here goes. Chris Moore’s mental universe:
Communists/Left = Jews (& their sympathizes)
Nazis fighting Communism = result Holocaust
thus Jews responsible for the Holocaust.
That’s actually all you need to know. For a while it looked he had sobered up a little, but then I discovered the concept carefully hidden in a sub phrase. It may be connected to a virus, since it seems contagious.
But the sticking together meme is quite an interesting. Not simply a human trait? Homo communis? Not a result of circumstances? What should we do with little Italy or Chinatown in SF? Do Italians or Chinese have a similar stick-together-meme only not so highly developed? Or what to do with the Turkish people over here, who occasionally take over parts of the city? Maybe the point is others after a while integrate but these “Orientals” somehow stick together over centuries. Could that have to do with (historically) Ghettos or cheaper parts of town? …
“that it is comprised of a cohesive group of Jews.”
Even the most modern genetic studies can find no sign of “cohesion” in Jews. They are just like anybody else. Do you have even the slightest substantiation to back up a statement that can only arise from anti-Semitism? In what way are they “cohesive”? By location”? No. Language? No. Doctrine? No Politics? No.
What is this “cohesiveness” you are talking about. Sounds to me like the old “all the Jews stick together” of anti-Semitism.
Please provide some, any evidence of Jewish cohesion in any way not commonm to thousands of other ethnic groups?
An Anti-Semitic “lip-ertarian” to be precise
It’s pretty plain, isn’t it, v…? But he probably knows a Jew or two, so there fore he knows all about them. And this obsession with Jews and socialism is ridiculous.
Koshiro, the “Hitler is really a socialist” has been some of the feces right-wing monkeys have been throwing around the cage for quite some time. It’s ridiculous, and insulting to anyone who was alive at the time, but it’s really taken on a life of its own here.
Chris is probably too young to know what a pernicious bit of bullshit he is repeating.
And that “secular humanism” rant is just too much. He doesn’t even know what it is.
He’s just repeating stuff he has heard like “the Jews are a cohesive group”. Compared to what and in what way? He doesn’t know. Jeez, the idiots we get here. They must think “Oh a website which doesn’t like Israel, that’s a good place for an anti-Semite”
“Oh a website which doesn’t like Israel, that’s a good place for an anti-Semite”
I think that’s it. Also there are the people who think they’re being daring and progressive by saying glib anti-semitic things, because false charges of anti-semitism are always used to suppress criticism of Israel, so, heh heh, they’ll show them by saying something anti-semitic. I have trouble telling whether people who think that way are motivated by anti-semitism or just plain stupidity. Could be both.
Chris is probably too young to know what a pernicious bit of bullshit he is repeating.
Actually this is something I doubt.
Here’s Chris Moore:
“(By Chris Moore, Judeofascism.com) — What do Bolshevism, Zionism and Neoconservatism have in common? In addition to being murderous, elitist, authoritarian and organizationally insular, they are all mass political movements in which Jewish ideologues played decisive and even definitive roles. In fact, without the Jewish contribution to each, they likely all would have been rendered either historically stillborn or unconceived altogether”
Nothing anti-Semitic there, no sir, baby!
What’s the anti-Semitic part?
You should not ask questions like that D, because I am a skulking “secular humanist socialist”…bwa ha ha!
V, I’m fully aware of Chris’s weakness for substituting labels for argument. But it’s still a fair question: in the paragraph Mooser quoted, what exactly is the “anti-Semitic” part? As far as I can tell, there’s no argument over who the founders, organizers, and promoters of these movements were. So the only possible area of dispute is over the question of whether they might still have arisen without the contribution of their Jewish founders. I’m not sure of the answer, but is it really “anti-Semitic” to have the opinion that they wouldn’t have?
Sooner or later we’ve got to start weaning the addicts from their “anti-Semitism” addiction.
What’s the anti-semetic part? Okay, D, you want to tell me how Jewishness is the connecting factor between Bolshevism, Zionism and Neo-conservatism? Be my guest.
“Okay, D, you want to tell me how Jewishness is the connecting factor between Bolshevism, Zionism and Neo-conservatism?”
OK, now we’re getting somewhere, Mooser. You’ve asked exactly the right question, but note that you’ve moved on from Chris’s statement. All he said is that the founders of all three movements were largely men who self-identified as “Jewish.” Now the obvious next question becomes the one you asked: is it possible that their ideas of “Jewishness” influenced their political ideas? It’s not a simple matter and I assume most of the people at this site are asking themselves exactly this type of question, in the context of Israel, Iraq, and Iran.
But your screams of “anti-Semitism” would have shut off this line of inquiry.
D.. the equation of Bolshevism with “the Jews” was a standard Nazi meme. The book linked looks into the cooperation of White Russian emigrants with the Nazis. In America this group got Ford to fund Hitler, they also circulated the Protocols.
We’ve been here before.
All effective myth must have a grain of truth in reality otherwise they wouldn’t work. But fact is Jews were a minor part among all party members. They simply were slightly better represented in leading roles, which the Nazi party turned into close to 100 percent. But could their higher representation have to do with the fact that the average Russian peasant couldn’t read or write? The Nazis use different, contradictory numbers from 80 to 90-something percent, which are provably falsified.
Also: If you want to declare “kin liability” or “blood guilt” that is kill the whole group for what single members of the group have done, you better make people believe there is a cohesiveness and thus the whole group is a threat. Thus the two columns of Nazi thought go together.
Could the experience of the Holocaust create something like cohesiveness? The point is if you consider this a worthwhile tale, you should also ask yourself if you want to be an heir to Nazi thought.
LeaNder’s view is correct in how the Nazi’s used the said Nazi meme; however she
discounts the distinct heavy disproportionality of self-identified jews in the red leadership
here” “They simply were slightly better represented in leading roles…”
LeaNder goes on to ask, “But could their higher representation have to do with the fact that the average Russian peasant couldn’t read or write?”
The average Russian peasant had been/ was simply a pawn of the white Russian elite; as they were for the Jewish elite. Here in the USA there’s been a de facto
ban on A Solzinitizen’s book covering the Russian-Jewish relationship during
the age of the Czar and the revolution and its aftermath. Perhaps LeaNder will read the book, if she hasn’t already as it has been translated into German. And get back to us?
Mooser, please answer the question posed by D.. – What’s the anti-semitic part? Haven’t Bolshevism, Zionism, and neoconservatism all been murderous, etc.? Haven’t Jews played a major role in all three? If you want to deny that, it seems you may may need to do more study.
When people insist on truth-telling in such matters, does that make the statements anti-semitic if they reflect badly on (some) Jews? Does it make the persons stating the truth personally anti-semitic? That’s a very important question. What’s your opinion?
it seems you may may need to do more study.
To me it seems you need much more study, but much easier to project isn’t it?
Jewish text and oral and visual output is filled with the Jewish contribution to all the good things in the world; invariably this is always illustrated by the listing of famous Jewish names. When the same tool is used to highlight negative Jewish contributions, this time
highighting notorious Jewish names, the same tool is painted as “anti-semitic.”
The better question is, who is not relying on projection? And on praise by association
or conversely, guilt by association?
“Haven’t Bolshevism, Zionism, and neoconservatism all been murderous, etc.? Haven’t Jews played a major role in all three?”
Haven’t Christians played a much bigger role? Far, far bigger and there is lot’s more of them. And what is the significance of Jewishness in all of those? Why is it significant that some of them are Jewish.
Because Mooser, it is the “Jewish Mind”…lol I swear, this is what Chris said earlier to me. Which is merely another Anti-Semitic trait – “they are one monolithic whole.” You know we all think alike, don’t you? It is similar, but much more insidious than what I mentioned just recently on my site –
“As an aside, a few years back I remember some well meaning “Christian” getting me to go to one of these meetings where he said it would be apparent to me how much his leaders loved the Jews. To make a long story short, this “leader” was talking about the Apostle Paul and what he accomplished and then he started to describe him as a “short, beetle browed, hooked nose, bowlegged Jew (I guess he thought it was cute, but I was not amused)! ” I kid you not, somehow this stereotype (because that is what it was) was representative of all Jews features. Well, each time he talked about the miracles Paul was supposed to perform he started with this description again – the third time he started in I walked out. I mean, with friends like that who needs enemies? “
I would have walked out too, and I’m not Jewish. OTH, I don’t identify with any
organized religion. I was an altar boy when my mind walked out on the Catholic Church forever.
No, Mooser, “Christians” (i.e., non-Jews) have not played a bigger role in political Zionism, which by most accounts has indeed been murderous in practice.
No, “Christians” have not played a bigger role in neoconservatism, which has also been murderous, practically speaking, in its ardent advocacy of America’s and Israel’s wars and in its tireless efforts to get Iran bombed. I could name several dozen prominent Jewish neoconservatives, but suffice it to ask if you disagree with the late Irving Kristol’s claim to being the “father of neoconservatism”?
Finally, notice that I did not assert (or even imply) that Jews were solely responsible for Zionism, neoconservatism, or Bolshevism. I simply said that (some) Jews “played a major role in all three”. It was a straightforward effort to get you to accept some rather obvious facts if presented, instead of constantly hiding for no good reason behind your rather worthless shield of “anti-semitism”.
Actually, considering just how many more of them, the Christians have played a far smaller role in the three isms mentioned. Hence the significance of the Jewish role therein.
Gosh, they must have needed a lot of Jewish Chaplins for all those Jewish guys in the US Army, when we invaded Iraq! I could have gotten a cushy job.
One or two more than sufficed.
And the neocon scribblers and government appointees were and are all chickenhawks,
so need to add any more military chaplains of any religion on their account.
I mean “no need”
Mooser – surely you are not denying that a substantial fraction (over 35% BTW) of the neoconservatives were jews – we are all taking that from the notorious signatories on the PNAC document. It’s been counted and recounted. Yes, Cheney was not a jew but the intellect behind neoconservatives was primarily jewish. And they pushed the war against the Iraqi people, urging the US to murder them, just as some are now urging the world to kill and masacre Iranians.
That jews are not in the US armed forces at anything remotedly approaching their 2% of the population is well kn own. That’s in fact one place where the problem is – they the ladeens (who helped cook the yellow cake forgery and is walking free, unfortunately) and the wolfowitz and the kristols – not one had been in the army. But they found it easy enough to urge those who were to go storm the palaces of Hussein. Why? because of hegemony and Israel. We saw them on our TV’s and read the garbage they spewed in the papers – those arm chair warriors who cared not a hoot about American soldiers dying for israel, or for Iraqis dying for the crime of being arabs.
It is unacceptable to not admit – and come to terms with the poison that’s sipped into US foreign policy. It’s not that i think jews are cohesive. in fact they hardly are. But there is an evil faction that rose within Judaism and it’s killing everything that was and is good in it. if you care about Judaism and jews (or even about israel, which has very different brands of jews), you’ll denounce the snakes that are strangling the soul of a basically good culture. Not defend them.
And why are you so sure that those things somehow typify Jews? Why can’t it be possible that, just like Christians, or anybody else, they are doing what they want to do as people, and their religion is not a significant factor in it?
After all, one guy becomes a Bolshvist because he’s Jewish, and another guy becomes a neoconservative, because he’s Jewish. What’s the connection?
If you take Chris statement in regard to the “Jewish Mind,” and than the “predominance” in lets say Socialism, because this is the ground that I have covered before with him – all one has to see is what he describes as socialist “traits” to see what he thinks of the Jews:
“Socialism is morally bankrupt because it is economically precipitated upon a ponzi scheme of government theft from ever larger sectors of the economy and ever more private assets of the people. This theft becomes increasingly necessary and blatant as time goes by because socialism dis-incentivizes work, productivity, ingenuity and entrepreneurialism. When it has sucked one country dry, it is forced to move on to more and more countries to extract their lifeblood as well, in order to survive. In short, it is parasitic.”
Ergo, Jews are – morally bankrupt, thieves, lazy both mentally and physically. The best being, because we are a diaspora – “forced to move on to more and more countries to extract their lifeblood as well” – we are “parasitic.” That is because these movements could have not survived without our input, brought to logical conclusion.
Anti-Semitic, in fact, the exact accusations of the Third Reich which they accused Jewry of in the vital areas of the country (economy, banks, education, etc.).
Ergo, we are –
THE CREW
Chris’s stance should not be characterized so cheaply. It’s a matter of record for example that Jews in the Weimar Republic were very influential in the sample vital areas of Germany way beyond their 1% demographic number, and, specifially, Socialism especially appealed to them. The Third Reich propaganda machine had a lot of real facts to work with. No, I don’t justify how that regime chose to address that situation in the best interests of all the German people, that is, by demonizing all Jewish Germans. The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State covers a more nuanced
view than either Chris’s or V’s. One thing I recall, if memory serves, is that a significant motive for Jewish attraction to Socialism originated in the desire to demolish
obstacles to the advance of Jewish careerism. Both the Jewish proletariat and the Jewish intellectuals thus hooked on to lefti politics.
Mooser asks (of me, I think), “And why are you so sure that those things somehow typify Jews?”
Actually, I’m not sure (and didn’t say) that these things – Zionism, neoconservatism, and Bolshevism – typify Jews. But surely it is correct to associate Zionism with Jewry, isn’t it? To pretend otherwise is craziness. I am perfectly aware that many Jews are not Zionist.
Neoconservatism is a brand of radical conservatism in the U.S. that is characterized by practically unconditional support for Israel. As I noted elsewhere, most of the most influential neoconservatives are Jewish. Generally, most right-wing Christian evangelical Zionists don’t qualify as neoconservatives (Michael Gerson excepted). I am well aware that most American Jews are not neoconservatives. No false syllogisms, please.
I certainly do not think that Bolshevism typifies Jews. And the only connection I know of between neoconservatism and Bolshevism is the undisputed fact that many of the early neoconservatives described themselves as reconstructed “Trotskyites”. Neoconservatism and Zionism are affine, while political Zionism and socialism (not Russian-style Bolshevism) had a brief affinity in Israel and the U.S.
Referring to your other post, I have never attempted to explain what makes Jews different from other people and I can’t see myself doing that. In my opinion, Jews are not innately different from other people. They differ from others in any significant way only because of Jewish tribal culture. To be Jewish, I suppose, is not to be a member of a particular race or religion but rather to be an accepted member of a tribal culture. I fail to see anything wrong in that, though I myself am devoutly non-tribal and proud of it. (There – I offered an explanation of sorts even though I didn’t intend to.)
Mooser can’t you do simple math? jews comprise 2% of the population, and gives you a 35% jewish figure for all the neocons. He also points to the signatures on the seminal document PNAC. BTW, the Christian sects never refer to themselves as a “people.” And in the land I imagine you grew up in, the USA, there is a network of
founding documents and laws that separate church and state. As you know, “the Jewish community, or the Jewish people, include atheists, agonstics, Buddists, etc–being Jewish is not limited in the way ID with Christianity or Islam is, nor is it
such a big tent taking all who say they believe.
Mooser can’t you do simple math? jews comprise 2% of the population, and gives you a 35% jewish figure for all the neocons. He also points to the signatures on the seminal document PNAC. BTW, the Christian sects never refer to themselves as a “people.” And in the land I imagine you grew up in, the USA, there is a network of
founding documents and laws that separate church and state. As you know, “the Jewish community, or the Jewish people, include atheists, agonstics, Buddists, etc–being Jewish is not limited in the way ID with Christianity or Islam is, nor is it
such a big tent taking all who say they believe.
You can’t tell me what makes Jews different from other people, but you are always ready to say that being Jewish is some big factor in their political choices.
I’d say the big historical difference has been/is that when it comes to any wall preventing any Jew’s career expansion, and also when it comes to immigration or Israel First, or anything that
might smack of a good way to divide and thereby conquer, the collective Jewish trajectory is best illustrated by the perennial Jewish question, “Is it good (in my opinion) for the Jews? In that sense, Mooser, you are operating with the same
engine as Norman P or any neocon. You simply disagree as to strategy. Otherwise,
you would not have painted gentiles with the broad brush you have in so many of your comments. I don’t think you are being consciously hypocritical. You don’t know you are another pot calling the kettle black. We are trying to help you here, just as you are trying to help the anti-semites realize they are so–judging by the on-going dialogue here between you and various commenters, success is not near at hand, even though you do counter a lot of obvious hasbara that is a waste of time
on this blog (possibly alone among blogs).
Aha the good old fashioned early 20th century antisemites have re-emerged here. The key is obsession with “Jewish Bolshevism”. This was the object of hatred by the likes of Henry Ford, Father Caughlin and all of the European fascist parties. Almost by definition, those who use this term were anti-semites and proud of it at the time. Today their wimpy followers deny even this.
So what is wrong with accusing Jews of being responsible for Bolshevism? Well they weren’t. Quite simply. It is like accusing Jews of being responsible for the field of theoretical physics — to be sure many of the practitioners were Jewish but Bohr, Plamk, Heisenberg, Pauli, etc might object.
As we know Boshevism grew into what is known as Stalism, which began as these ahistoric fools seem to conveniently forget, with a purge of the Jews from Soviet CP.
Thank you syvanen. I get some feaked out when I come across these dolts I can’t even Google anymore.
Did you catch the references to “secular humanism”? Which of course, is somehow inextricably tied up with Jews.
This what I get all the time, what I was talking about on the other thread. Scratch a right-wing anti-Zionist, and you’ll find an anti-Semite every time. Now these days, just as they are all second-hand Father Coughlins, they are second hand anti-Semites.
Mooser says, “Scratch a right-wing anti-Zionist, and you’ll find an anti-Semite every time.”
I’m a left-wing anti-Zionist, but I happen to know a few right-wing anti-Zionists in my part of the country. I can testify that they are not all anti-semitic (i.e., do not dislike Jews as a group or as a people). Your categorical statement is false.
And this illustrates the problem I have with most of your comments in this thread. As seems to be typical of you, Mooser, you like to paint anyone non-Jewish, who is critical of anything or anyone Jewish (such as Zionism), as an anti-semite. You insist categorically that Jews are not “cohesive”, and yet you exhibit this reflexive trait of jumping to the defense of your whole tribe when outside criticism is levied against any segment of your tribe, such as Zionists.
You justly complain that some people erroneously lump all Jews together in one homogeneous body. But, as your statement above shows, you are prone to the same kind of inaccurate generalization.
Astutely noted and well said, CMI. Does Mooser’s choice not to ride a Harley echo
his pattern here? He’s said in the past that he and his MOT motorcyle club/gang chose
another bike brand…
Interestingly, motorcycle clubs/gangs originally evolved from WW1 German Army veterans, and here in the USA, from WW2 US Army veterans. What are you against?
What do you got?
I don’t ride Harleys, or any other “cruiser” because they are exceedingly dangerous. Why? Simple! When you ride a motorcycle, you must, must, be able to put weight on the footpegs in order to shift your weight. If the footpegs are too far forward, you can’t do this. Thus, a big and completely unecessary measure of risk is introduced.
I would never ride any bike on which I couldn’t rise from the seat to a standing position without using the handlebars. Pegs don’t have to be “rear-sets” (way up and behind, for cornering clearance) but they must be under your butt, so you can put weight on them.
Besides, how ridiculous does a perswon look riding down the road with their legs and arms spread and outstretched, like they were welcoming a lover? We call it the “please fuck-me riding position”.
As far as everything else, well, that’s why we call them HELOC-Davidsons. They are a rip-off.
Harley sales are down to nothing, and the market is glutted with used Hardly-Abelsons that people can’t sell.
I don’t ride any motorcycle. But I have relations and friends who do. They say
you don’t know what you are talking about, Mooser.
Yeah, over 35 years of motorcycling, not a scratch, three bikes in the garage (Honda VTR 1000, VFR 750F, and Ducati 900ss) and I don’t know what I’m talking about.
And forward controls are great, and don’t interfere with your ability to control a bike. You betcha.
But of course, you have never ridden a bike, but your friends told you. Yeah okay.
Held a bike endorsement in 4 states, three times through MSF training. And I will be riding today.
Many here seem less interested in righting US foreign policy than in fighting perceived anti-Semitism on the internet. Don’t you already have the ADL for that?
“Don’t you already have the ADL for that?”
“You” meaning “you Jews”?
What do you mean “we” white man?
What do you mean “we” white man?
Jews are not a race. Just like Muslims, Christians, and all the rest of the followers of various faiths are not races either. Trying to make a slanderous connection to racism where color of skin is not the issue is a clear case of desperation on the part of Phillip Weiss to grasp at straws in his attempt to demonize an innocent people. Which begs the question of what sort of hatred has germinated within him to so cloud his reason.
And to the hangers on, the lurkers, the fan boys, and the sick souls that revel in the cesspool of hate, Mondoweiss is, are any of you really upset at racism here? Something tells me no. Something tells me that the faux outrage on behalf of the poor, poor Arabs would evaporate if it were other Arabs, or Persians, or Africans, or any other of the various brown skinned humans you and your brethren have deemed the victim here.
Those among you who are the washed up 60s rejects of Jewish Voice for (more War) Peace, Ameinu, or Peace (of Jews lying in graves) Now would be stringing your macrame belts together to form a rope to lynch the author of the racist document I am going to link to with. The link I am providing takes you to a foundational document that was presented to the world as a writ of legitimacy. You will find that the racist people that wrote it made clear which race they are over and over. See if you can count how many times the racist author named his race and constructed the foundation of special status for his race. Something tells me that more outrage will be directed at me than at the codified racism in the document.
link to un.int
Micheal, you are ridiculous, and you don’t even know what is going on.
How predictable of you Michael.
You don’t even deal with Phil’s point, you just slander him.
There are plenty of studies done on Israeli Jewish opinions of ‘the other’. Not only that, but there are lots of other examples via Israel’s actions. Etc. etc.
This is a very broad topic. And you condense it into the typical histrionics, compensating for the fact that you have no facts.
Got something meaningful to say? Then say it. Try doing it without insults. Try using sources to form a cogent substantiated argument. People here are much more reasonable than those in the comments section of Haaretz/JPost/YNet.
However, I sincerely doubt you can.
I have dealt with Weiss. point. He is projecting racism on to people that none are evident. A Rabbi or group concerned about losing members does not care about the the other group’s race, they care about the other group’s belief system. Those in the photo are racists causing fear. The Rabbis implementing programs and offering counseling to young women are the ones living in fear. They are the victims of institutionalized Arab racism with a legitimate concern. Also a number of the young women disappear and it is not known if they are alive, dead, sold as prostitutes or what. You see malice where none exists because you hate. My challenge was to show that you concern is actual racism. I presented the opportunity to discuss it and none of you have bothered to do much more than hurl mindless insults.
Hurl mindless insults? That is what you’ve done. You’re screeds are full of pointless one-liners. You’ve defined the context of your commentary in doing so. You’re not interested in debate. You came here to pick a fight. Then, when we talk back, you backpedal.
And just recently a Palestinian girl – a MINOR – was molested in an Israeli prison by a prison guard.
A prison is an institution. Palestinians in prison are helpless. Not as helpless as they are under Occupation – which is also an institution.
The relationship between Israeli Jewish Zionist and Palestinian Arab is that of master to slave. Abuser to the abused.
Define your point of contention and debate like a grown-up.
Is there racism in Israel? OF COURSE. There is racism everywhere. SO we have to apply another filter to our critical thinking.
Is there INSTITUTIONAL racism in Israel? That is the question.
Now, you have been calling people liars left and right, and then challenging people to question your argument, specifically, to point out YOUR lies.
However, it’s not so cut and dry.
Someone can be INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST but not purely lying.
For example, here’s an argument you’ve probably copied and pasted over and over:
‘Israel left Gaza and all it got was rockets in return.’
That’s not a lie. However, would anyone in their right mind accept that as a ‘truth’? No, because TRUTH encompasses both HONEST and facts. Honesty is about the details. It’s about context. It’s about the complexities.
You are not honest and of course, you are a bigot and racist. The links on your website are proof of that.
Cliff,
“You’re not interested in debate. You came here to pick a fight. Then, when we talk back, you backpedal.”
Can you show me an instance of back pedaling? I came here to fight those that enable human rights violators to get away with their crimes, but I am an iron man when it comes to fighting. You are lying if you say I back pedal.
“And just recently a Palestinian girl – a MINOR – was molested in an Israeli prison by a prison guard.”
What are the details? And if a guard is guilty of the crime how is he treated by the wider Israeli society? By comparison, Samir Gunter has been feted in the capitals and hallowed halls of the Arab world for crushing the skull of a Jewish child with the butt of his rifle. The same people you side with.
“The relationship between Israeli Jewish Zionist and Palestinian Arab is that of master to slave. Abuser to the abused.”
If that is the case what examples can you point out to support your doltish observation? Do Israelis have a slave market we can visit? What is an Arab going for these days in Israel? You can buy a human in Mauritania, Mali, Niger, and Sudan, (Islamic sharia nations, only by coincidence, of course…I am not an Islamophobe, I am not an Islamophobe, I am not an Islamophobe) but I didn’t know it could be done in Israel? If the price is right I might buy one or two myself.
” Define your point of contention and debate like a grown-up.”
I have been trying, but all I get is feed back from infantile boobs like yourself. My point of contention is that Phillip Weiss posted a photo of real racists and projected racism on the innocent Rabbis that came up with the idea of counseling young Jewish women abandoning their faith, a number of which who disappear into the Muslim communities and are subsequently never heard from again. My contention is that real racism exists on the Arab side yet none of you alleged human rights activists care about that. Part of any information dominance is an appeal to neutral observers. A rational observer will conclude that you are not actually concerned about human rights, leaving a question of your sincerity and your real motivations which to me are transparent to the rotten core.
“Is there INSTITUTIONAL racism in Israel? That is the question.”
That has not been proven to an objective standard. But to understand the conflict the question needs to posed to the Arabs as well, is there INSTITUTIONAL racism in the heirarchy of Arab leadership? My first supporting evidence that none of you are addressing is the PLO Charter and the mention of the Arab race over 30 times. Codified racism.
“Now, you have been calling people liars left and right, and then challenging people to question your argument, specifically, to point out YOUR lies.”
I could care less if people attempt to point out lies, that is exactly what I am here for, but I hold every commenter accountable to the things they post. If you call someone a liar it is defamati0n or libel if the claim turns out to be untrue. I have been labeled a liar here multiple times with no supporting evidence. I have also called others liars, but I always bring supporting evidence to back up the claim. Unlike your own, not a single premise I have presented has been disproved here.
” Someone can be INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST but not purely lying.”
I am not sure I agree. If you are being dishonest with yourself it is lying. For example, if you refuse to consider the fact that your chosen victims have an institutionalized racist society and that racism is a factor that MUST be considered in understanding the actions of all parties in context, you are lying. Similarly, avoiding questions that you know the answer will weaken your premise is intellectual dishonesty, but it is lying if you continue to claim your premise is valid.
“For example, here’s an argument you’ve probably copied and pasted over and over:
‘Israel left Gaza and all it got was rockets in return.’
That’s not a lie. However, would anyone in their right mind accept that as a ‘truth’? No, because TRUTH encompasses both HONEST and facts. Honesty is about the details. It’s about context. It’s about the complexities.”
Did you cut and paste the last portion, because you do not follow your own advice. I have asked numerous times for you or anyone to consider institutionalized Arab racism, yet you have cognitive dissonance to avoid going there. Arab racism is part of the equation in understanding the entire context. After you have faced the demons I am pointing to you can walk where I walk, until then I view you as a frightened child metaphorically.
“You are not honest and of course, you are a bigot and racist. The links on your website are proof of that. ”
As I have posted on this web site, I have 4 races in my immediate well functioning family what race am I promoting? These are the hollow charges and projections I am talking about. You make a charge and do not support it with evidence. Being linked to websites you do not like is a bag of fool’s gold if that is your evidence that I am a racist.
“Something” wouldn’t happen to be your inflated sense of Jewish exceptionalism, would it? It usually says things like that, but that doesn’t mean we have to listen to self-entitled twits.
I’m not a Jew, if I were I would state it. Do you have a point? Or do Jews automatically get filed into a compartment in what passes for a brain you have?
‘your inflated sense of Jewish exceptionalism’ doesn’t mean YOU are Jewish. Although, potsherd may think you are, he has to clarify.
And please, don’t act like it’s such a surprise people are asking you whether you are or aren’t.
You come here and spew your racist garbage and bigotry. You have a link to a Kahane website, Masada2000, among other hate-sites and pure propaganda, and you expect people to NOT consider that you may be a Jewish supremacist?
I thought you were smart, and we were all Leftist dunces! Please educate us, oh wise one. Oh and toss in some witty jabs at our user-names. You’re a laugh riot!
Here’s Israel’s favorite connection with Africa:
link to upi.com
Otherwise, we all know that Israel’s reality is just a Palestinian child’s stone throw
from the more honest former Nazi regime’s. After all, Israel came after, learned the
formal etiquette lesson, and after all, Nazi Germany was not dependent on USA foreign aid.
Well, yes, Michael L, Jews are not a race in the sense that a person with no Jewish family tree members (a la who has the right of return?) may convert (if they stand on their head and recite the whole Torah–reader’s get the point), and what % of self-identififed jews comprises are converts? And so there is no significant similie here: “Just like Muslims, Christians, and all the rest of the followers of various faiths are not races either.” Not to mention a Jew may be a Jew even if he/she is a declared
atheist, and will be recognized as such. Not so with the other Abrahamic religions, at least, and those religions make it easy as pie to convert, not difficult as constipation. Since the rest of your comment is simply tossing out juvenile slurs
and too dumping them into a thread you seem not to have read, I will say no more.
I suggest, for starters, you read Judiasm 101: /www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm
Your point seems to be that since there are so few converts and Jews actually discourage conversion then they are a race, right? I disagree. It takes more to being a Jew in my opinion than having a Jewish mother. Faux Jews like Weiss, Kovel, Chomsky, Finkelstein and others carry no more significance than posers trying to claim legitimacy where none exist to me. An Israeli Jewish professor at U of M told me once “excuse me? You are not an Israeli or even a Jew” So what? I haven’t been to the moon either but I know a thing or two about astronomy.
Jews are a mixture of all colors. In a recent era when Europeans looked down on blacks Zionists embraced African Jews as brothers. Yet at the same time, the largest ongoing genocide currently running is a clear case of Arab racism directed at black Africans in Darfur. Do you have any defensive comments to justify the racism in the PLO Charter? And if not will you condemn the author, as a purported human rights advocate? Thought not…
I don’t care what you call the makeup of those satisfying the criteria under the self-proclaimed Jewish state’s right of return. And what you call the criteria for full civil rights in that state once you get there. Certainly it meets the criteria for what was deduced as institutionalized racism in the 3rd Reich. Do you deny this? Further, as you know, many Jewish Israelis do not accept African Jews as full Israeli citizens.
The Darfur hell hole is not simply the result of rascist Arab interlopers. It is very much an authentic civil war among the Africans, exploited by both Arabs and Jews.
The PLO charter contains racism by most people’s common sense. So does Israel’s
institutional language and practice. Thanks for putting words in my mouth; it merely shows you like talking to yourself.
Citizen,
“I don’t care what you call the makeup of those satisfying the criteria under the self-proclaimed Jewish state’s right of return. And what you call the criteria for full civil rights in that state once you get there. Certainly it meets the criteria for what was deduced as institutionalized racism in the 3rd Reich. Do you deny this?”
Of course I deny this. German citizens had to be Aryan to be accepted. Even the genocidal fiend, Amin Husseini had to be medically checked to confirm he was Aryan before he was alloed to pal around with the planners of the most brutal extermination of humans in recorded history. Unlike in Israel it was tough to grow up black in Nazi Germany.
link to loc.gov
“Mr. Massaquoi was dealt a crushing blow when he learned that the Hitlerjugend as well as the local playground were not open to “non-Aryans.”
“Further, as you know, many Jewish Israelis do not accept African Jews as full Israeli citizens.”
No, I have not read any Israeli law on the book that formalizes this? Could you point me to the ordinance you are referring? Which municipality are they excluded from living in? If your point is that some number of Israelis hold racist views, you are passing gas in the wind. Further, can you support your claim that “many” do not view them as “citizens”? I doubt your accuracy, but would like to know the facts if you have them.
” The Darfur hell hole is not simply the result of rascist Arab interlopers. It is very much an authentic civil war among the Africans, exploited by both Arabs and Jews.”
Exploited by Arabs and Jews? Not Arabs and Christians? Or Arabs and Hindus? What is the Jewish connection? I am dying to hear what the boys at Storm Front have linked the Jews to this time?
“The PLO charter contains racism by most people’s common sense. So does Israel’s”
Congratulations you win a winky prize. You admit that there is institutionalized racism in Arab society that is codified in its foundational documents, but it is not a gold colored winky prize, because you used false moral equivalency by dragging Israel along with your admission. Now prove the equivalent codified racism in Israeli law, because your statement as stands is a lie. You are making a positive assertion, so back it up.
Here’s Israel’s favorite connection with Africa:
link to upi.com
Otherwise, we all know that Israel’s reality is just a Palestinian child’s stone throw
from the more honest former Nazi regime’s. After all, Israel came after, learned the
formal etiquette lesson, and after all, Nazi Germany was not dependent on USA foreign aid.
Citizen,
You don’t see any irony that you are trying to project Arab qualities onto the Israeli Jews? Amin Husseini allied himself mind and soul with the Nazi cause, Arab leaders in Iraq, Egypt, and Syria were friendly to the Nazis and Mein Kampf is a best seller today. You are engaging in demonisation, which is why I am here to oppose your malevolent intentions.
Do you intend to answer any of the many questions you are avoiding? Or are you too afraid of getting your image tarnished more? You seem to have been reduced to random pacing, mumbling under your breath, and kicking rocks, while making angry faces…then occasionally, after some long exertion you have an epiphany moment (Jews are like Nazis!) …uh huh….like a child that has made it to the toilet for the very first time without crapping his pants, embarrassingly you insist on running to me with the results of your effort waving the detritus of your grand effort, instead of sending it on to its highest, sophist, calling…and the flushing.
This discussion has taken a disappointing turn.
I’ve told Mondowiess more than once that he should look at JSF, talk or correspond with levi999 and take advice from him on how to run a comments section. But he didn’t, I’m pretty sure, so this is what we get. We get right-wing cranks who hope that any site which might be anti-Zionist would be a frienfly place for their anti-Semitism, and a steady stream of Hasbara hacks like Micheal.
And in which catagory do you fancy yourself, Mooser? Inquiring regular minds here
want to know.
Koshiro,
My comment is about Japan, because of your name. Please tell me you are not the composer Koshiro. My question is how racially pure is Japan? I mean has there ever been a mass amnesty and recognition of the Koreans living as permanent residents in Japan, many of them born there? The US has given amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants and we embrace them as fellow citizens today. Does that mean racism does not exist here? Not hardly, it exists everywhere, Israel included, but is it institutionalized like in Japan? No it is not. My point is, assuming you are using your own name as I do and that you are Japanese or care out Japan, can you link me to some writiong where you have complained about Japanese racism? You seem awfully upset about the supposed racism Phillip Weiss just sleight of handed you with.
Further, are you concerned about Arab racism? The Arabs seemed content to carry Jordanian passports for 19 years without calling themselves Palestinians or launching a mass murder spree called an intifada against their fellow Arabs. And the odd thing is, they were suffering under the yoke of an invading, colonialist, dictatorial monarchy (the Hashemites) the whole time. Women and non-land owners were given (by Jewish warriors) the first ever chance in their lives to vote in municipal elections when they were liberated, but what hatred drove them to madness? I think you can read the founding document and guess one of the real reasons there is no peace between the Arabs and those they wage murder against.
This is the same old tired Hasbara line, good old No.4 ! The whole world sucks!
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
See by this argument, if we can find an example of something bad anywhere in the world, even in Japan, it excuses the Israelis!
See, if the Zionists don’t get their chance to do any bad thing that has ever happened, why, that’s anti-Semitism.
What’s next, the Zionists saying “Hitler burned people up in ovens, so why can’t we use some white phosopurus on people” Oh sorry, they already used that one.
But Micheal, I do want to stress that you do have a point! It is certain that the Israelis are capable of any prejudice, and crime, or any atrocity that any other human group is capable of. And anybody who says they aren’t is an anti-Semite! Right, Micheal?
“Which begs the question of what sort of hatred has germinated within him to so cloud his reason”
As uusual, you can always tell an idiot from his misuse of the expression “begs the question”. It does not mean “begs for the question” which is the way you use it.
But let me get this straight Micheal ” Phillip Weiss to grasp at straws in his attempt to demonize an innocent people.” You are talking about the Israelis as the “innocent people”? Is that it?
And if Jews aren’t a “race” why do they need a country, why don’t they just blend in where they are. Why do you deny the essential tenets of Zionism, that Jews are a race or people? I mean, if they are just like anybody else, there’s no reason why they can’t get along with everybody, right?
And as far as the Palestinians being so racist, if that is so, why were the Zionists so eager to go there and make enemies of them?
Mooser,
As much as it pains me to address a ridiculous frat boy moniker like ‘Mooser’, which is a mere alphabetical keystroke away from ‘Loser’, since you are the self proclaimed font of wisdom on the subject and gifted with extra sensory powers to know the contents of what I ‘know’ or don’t know, why don’t you break it down for me in a nut shell, if you can crack yourself out of the one you are yourself ensconced in, that is.
“ridiculous frat boy moniker like ‘Mooser’,”
Listen,Micheal, you schmuck, you couldn’t even get into my fraternity. We only take those who are racially pure, and can prove legitimate descent.
As much as it pains me to address a ridiculous frat boy moniker like ‘Mooser’, which is a mere alphabetical keystroke away from ‘Loser’,
To quote Zoltan Newberry at Glenn Greenwald’s site: There are Jews who are not smart enough to become a doctor or a lawyer, all they know is how to kickstart a motorcycle and roll a joint. That’s you Derbig
He left out my unmatched abilities in seducing Gentile girls.
But anyway, thank you for telling me about my name’s proximity to “loser”. Gosh, wouldn’t one alphebetical keystroke be “looser” , not “loser”?
Only outmatched by my ability to seduce Jewish girls. They are a pushover compared to my abilities with non-Jewish girls. I imagine Mooser the MOT gang bike rider experiences the converse.
Mike, you are a mental midget and it shows.
But Micheal, listen, Phil has a problem here with bandwidth, so since your comments can easily be reduced to a simple numbered system, please save a few bites and simply write in the number corresponding to your message:
1. Israel Rocks!
2. Arabs Suck!
3. You suck!
4. The Whole World Sucks
So far you seem to lean pretty heavily on Nos. 2, 3, and 4. Don’t you think you could balance it out with a little No.1? I mean, just for old times sake.
Or is No.1 (Israel Rocks!) not really a saleable item these days?
Can I get a word in edgewise on my own behalf here now that the Jewish and Judeophile lefties have dragged me through the mud?
Of course Mooser’s claims that Jewry isn’t cohesive are absurd. I never said Jewry is unitary, I said Jewry sticks together, and its continuous existence for some 4,000 years is self-evident proof of that. For purposes of ethnic consciousness, Jewry breaks the world into “Jew” and “Gentile.” Next, Mooser will claim the word “Gentile” is a myth or an anti-Semitic conspiracy. Also, American Jewry roughly formulates collective policy based on Jewish interests, the same way minority Christians or minority Muslims do when surrounded by a majority that doesn’t share their faith. There is nothing controversial about this.
Again, the hugely disproportionate Jewish influence upon Bolshevism, Zionism and Neoconservatism is well documented and in no way controversial. And pointing it up is no more anti-Semitic than Weiss’ regular documentation of the outsized role Jewry is playing in formulating Mideast policy and effecting the media debate in America, nor any more anti-Semitic than Walt/Mearsheimers claims that the Israel lobby played a “decisive” role in ginning up the Iraq war.
Fact: Jews play a disproportionate role in the current U.S. Senate. 20% of the Democrats in the U.S. Senate are Jewish even though Jews comprise under 2% of the U.S. Is it anti-Semitic to say this?
And just so I’m clear on the Left vs. Right issue, I see no moral distinction between the hard Left and the hard Right, and consider both to be anti-American due to their extreme intolerance, absolutism and authoritarianism. The lefties, of course, say this automatically makes me a “right-winger” whether I subscribe to a right-wing political agenda or not — which goes to their anti-intellectualism and categorical thinking. For purposes of political censorship, they profess to believe that anyone who takes a critical view of Jewry and of the Left must be a Nazi. Why is it that generalized flattery of Jewry is allowed and encouraged on the American Left, but specific, documented criticism is evidence of racism, heresy and a crypto right-wing agenda? Because a disproportionate number of Jews have historically comprised the high priests of Leftist thought, and still do. Calling someone who points this out a “right-winger” is the contemporary equivalent of how the early Soviets labeled dissidents as sinister “counter-revolutionaries.”
One last aside on Leander: As a German socialist under the American military umbrella, she has a vested interest in maintaining the corrupt imperial American status-quo, because America taking on the brunt of Europe’s defense burden frees up funds for European socialists to shower public money on themselves and their programs. That’s how Europe is able to afford its socialist health care and its annual two-month vacations, even as the American dupes have to slave away all year for a lousy two weeks. Does pointing this out make me anti-Germanic?
Chris, you have a fan now. I’m sure Micheal Lafavour will agree with you on every point, particulalry those on Judaism and Communism. After all, he must be proud of those left wingkibbutzs where they shared all the women and children.
Micheal, is Chris correct in the things he is saying? You ought to know lots better than me.
For purposes of ethnic consciousness, Jewry breaks the world into “Jew” and “Gentile.”
No, just stupid. And completely unable to substantiate anything you say. For instance that last bit, about us paying for Europes “socialised” medicine. You made a very specific statement “America taking on the brunt of Europe’s defense burden frees up funds for European socialists to shower public money on themselves and their programs” Can you substantiate that, or is it “self-evident”
Mooser, have all those shiksas attracted to you that you always brag about seducing
filled your brain with their implied stupidity and ignorance? The first lesson of the Torah and Talmud is that this is a bi-polar world. There is the tribe of Israel and its descendants, and the goyhim, that is, non-Jews. Are you honestly trying to convince anyone that is not so, whether they think that bi-polar world is a net good or net bad?
Who’s being stupid here? And where have you been; there’s been so much written
by economic and foreign policy experts regarding how Europe is able to
benefit domestically from the freeing up of money that would have to be spent for Defense if the USA’s protective umbrella was taken away. Too, it is “self-evident.”
Chris, there is one big problem with your description of my state of mind and my interests and my “complacent security for which you pay”. It tells much about you but nothing about me. I don’t like Americans constant insistence to raise defense spending to the US level either. What for? Whom do you suggest we should fight right now, or for whom should we get ready?
From early on I didn’t like the idea of German rearmament. There would have been two models for what to do on European ground: Sweden and Switzerland. …
Whom exactly did US forces protect me from post 1945? I was against the Pershing on German grounds, I didn’t like the cold war rhetoric, it was far too easy for too many Germans providing a convenient continuity. The Russians after all had been were considered Untermenschen – subhumans–earlier, that could only be used for forced work, apart from the White Russian elites and nobility who conspired with the Nazis.
BUT neither did I ever object to the presence of American, English or French troops on German ground. I may well have felt a certain degree of thankfulness. Besides, it offered many chances to meet interesting people among the soldiers and their families combined with the opportunity to use and practice their language.
I was never a member of any left wing fractions all my life, the fights over whatever specific god/ultimate truth they had to offer: Marx, Lenin, Mao or Gaddafi VietCong, Kmer Rouge and their respective red or green bibles, bored me to tears. I admittedly read Marx but preferred to do so on my own, realizing it was necessary to understand later thinkers and continuities to earlier thinkers. And yes “theoretically” my heart beats left while enjoying the often wider historical horizon conservative thinkers provide.
But yes, I have an instinctive dislike for authoritarian approaches no matter if in a religious or secular dress.
No comment concerning your socialist health care. Your two month vacations are a bad hoax. True Germans have a legal right to 20 days of vacation, which are four weeks, if you have a 5-day-week. The average rate in good firms is 6 weeks though, but often combined with special periods the whole firm doesn’t work, e.g. often from 24th of December to the 1st of January.
In reading LeaNder’s comments over the years, I do think LeaNder is being honest when she says she has had an instinctive dislike for
authoritarian appraoches no matter if in a religious or secular address. And she draws
a good sample sketch of her evolved POV why this is so, and why she still takes this stance (which I agree with). OTH, I do think she has been infected in her formative years by German PC politics which gives short shrift to why Germans flocked to Hitler and thought this was rational at the time. There’s no question in my mind she’d think more about German national defense, that is, about the ramifications
of world politics on Germany, if the protective umbrella provided by Uncle Sam
was taken away. Nothing like being out in the rain without an umbrella–you suddenly feel every drop of rain and even a short walk becomes longer. I worked my whole life in the private sector here in the USA and paid for my own education; indeed, I served in the USA military in Germany as a peon soldier. I’ve never had more than 10 days of vacation in any given year while working, and I’ve worked for various private companies. I’m now retired. Additionally, I’ve kept up contact
with German contacts, old and new–through 2002. I cherish them all. I sometimes
wonder from what sort of a socio-economic background LeaNder comes from. You don’t need to watch the movie Cabaret to know that is an important index of any POV.
OTH, I do think she has been infected in her formative years by German PC politics which gives short shrift to why Germans flocked to Hitler and thought this was rational at the time.
Could you explain the above in different words, not sure what to make of it. PC isn’t really a German post WWII phenomenon, so how could I have been infected by it? You mean the big cloak of silence? That’s not PC, that’s avoidance, repression.
My socio-economic background. What exactly are you expecting? And why would this be important?
PC is very much a post-WW2 phenomenon, most especially in Germany. Surely you jest? If you are serious, this speaks to just how well you were propagandized growing up in post war Germany (with the best of intentions). The “cloak of silence” is a very key part of PC propaganda. Wake up, smell the coffee! How can you possibly disconnect it from the (well-intentioned, but ultimately weak PC strategy) of
avoiding so much historical fact to arrive at a cartoon of the family of Man and think it is long-term viable? Why would your socio-economic background be important, LeaNder? Ever hear the axiom that “A liberal is somebody who has yet to be mugged?” Jeez, LeaNder. Are you that sheltered?
LeaNder obviously never heard of the Berlin Airlift, and she was on vacation when the wall came tumbling down, and now let’s keep the Wehrmacht as a simple border police. Obama wants a bit more, say in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Golly, what should
Germany do?
“Let’s you and him fight!”
But maybe the fight could be carried on elsewhere. Discussion is already hard enough on this site with its discourse-unfriendly interface.
Sure potsherd, you wanna discuss how much the Jews are responsible for Communism, or maybe how neo-conservatism is all the fault of Jews, and how Hitler was really a socialist?
No. And I don’t want to wade through it here, either. No more than I want to wade through spam about how to acquire a Schlong of Steel that the Shiksas will swoon for.
“how to acquire a Schlong of Steel that the Shiksas will swoon for.”
To late for me, the Mohel was drunk, and gave my parents more than their money’s worth. For God’s sake, don’t tell my wife! I told her it was an industrial accident.
Well, at least Mooser agrees that’s always an unkind cut and totally berift of
reason (unless you are gay re HIV). All those highly sexual nerve endings cut off
with a knife–if you add on top a condom, all that sexy thrill double demolished.
I have always wondered about that. Those early Jews (and others) were pretty practical, and sons were pretty valuable, and there was no sterile procedure.
If they would cut into their precious son’s schlong, they must have been expecting pretty specific results. I wonder what they were? I truly don’t know.
And please don’t tell me.
How can you drink a mohel?
I did admittedly not follow closely Mooser’s proud Don Juan presentations and allusions, beyond amusement. I can’t understand your irritation, potsherd, but strictly I am not sure what to make of it.
Maybe Eliah was on a Zeus-like adventure himself at the time of the Bris and this had the unfortunate result Mooser reports. His penis turned into the steely force the Nazis feared so much would harm their Aryan daughters? Consider hard as Krupp steel they only wanted themselves to be, but strictly for wars only. But really this would lead us into a really complex terrain.
My two pennies on the issue.
How can you drink a mohel?
I did admittedly not follow closely Mooser’s proud Don Juan presentations and allusions, beyond amusement. I can’t understand your irritation, potsherd, but strictly I am not sure what to make of it.
Maybe Elijah was on a Zeus-like adventure himself at the time of the Bris and this had the unfortunate result Mooser reports. Would any of the people present have noticed? Thus his penis turned into the steely force the Nazis feared so much would harm their Aryan daughters? Consider hard as Krupp steel they only wanted themselves to be, but strictly for wars only. But really this would lead us into a really complex terrain.
My two pennies on the issue.
Jewish circumsion originated as a tribal ritual just like many African tribes have to this day. There was also a bit of health later used to justify it, back in the days when
people didn’t wash often. The USA took it up, first as a way of preventing masturbation, echoing Freud, later it was resurrected in the USA (during WW2) as an automatic
procedure, paid for by insurance, by a heavily Jewish-influenced USA medical leadership wishing to rid the world
of some Nazi, saying, “Drop you pants” to access loyalty. Routine Male circumsicion has slowly been dying since the late 1970′s in the USA. Europe
has never bowed to circumcision. The USA is slowly catching up. Of course Muslim and Jewish peoples continue the practice, as they do the practice of not eating pork. Americans in general love pork chops and are slowly also ridding themselves
of the disadvantages of routine circumcision. Pork chops taste good. An uncut penis enjoys more sexual sensation–a physical truth supported by science.
Hey, we got Bolshevism, we got Neo-conservatism! Now, we can make it a trifecta! Chris, you gotta see this, it completes the circle:
Zionazi agreement
He keeps on talking about the “hard left” but he won’t say who it is! Maybe it is supposed to be self-evident, like Jewish cohesiveness.
We doesn’t he do his Pat Buchanan/ Father Coughlin act on his own blog?
Mooser, are you suggesting that Populism has never gained favor due to its inherent
lack of facts, or due to the power of the elite status quo, e.g., all those referendums for term limits that passed not so long ago, but were squelched by the US Supreme Court, the last bastion of the unelected elite?
Oh, so Populism is the “hard left”? And will we be seeing a lot of Populist Party candidates in the next election.
Please give me an example of the “hard left” in America which is active and functioning now, and has a significant effect on American politics.
If you want to say “The Democrats have turned Commie or Socialist”, please do so, and get it over with.
No, Populism is not hard left at all and I did not suggest so–blog readers check out the comments on this thread to see if I say the truth. Populism, by definition, is neither hard right nor hard left. It simply means average Americans who see that
their dire concerns are not addressed by the political leadership of either party in a
de facto two-party system.
“Jewish and Judeophile lefties have dragged me through the mud?”
Oh yeah, that’s great stuff, Chris “Judeophile lefties”
Tell it to Micheal Lafavour, he’s got to be a real big lefty, being a fan of Zionism and all. Isn’t that right Micheal. Hey Micheal, why don’t you tell us how Israel is the fulfillment of socialism.
You know Chris, you really should get to know Zionists a bit better. I think you have much, much more in common than you think. I mean, after all, pick your poison, pal. You should try to put up with those awful Jewish Zionists, cause they’re the only thing standing between you and Sharia Law!
Or are you in favour of having the Muslims take over? Well if you’re not, the ZIonists are your best friends. Or are you trying to eliminate “Jewish power” to pave the way for the Muslim domination of the moderate American Christians? I bet that’s it.
Spare me Likud Zionism, Sharia Law, Christian fundamentalism, AIPAC, and the joint USA-Israel military industrial complex Ike first talked about (which now includes the likes of Blackwater). BTW, I don’t think Chris is in favor of any of these –all who wish to
monitor and control us for our own good. Mooser’s POV is also disturbing in that it
consistently by implication of his words denigrates the American grass roots; he feels himself somehow superior–why? He’s never told us.
No one dragged you through the mud Chris, you dove in yourself as if you were taking a long awaited bath. The very points you bring above try to temper what you came up with when you were being factually and verbally decapitated under another lost, let me quote some –
“I won’t delve deeply into certain strains of obsessive and megalomaniacal Jewish psychology that demand centralization and socialism as a means of controlling the levers of power across huge expanses of politics, geography and economy out of a cultural control-freak insecurity and irrational neurosis, because I have learned to hold my tongue out of good manners and a grudging respect…”
“Re “The Arab Mind”: Interestingly, the same author of the book by that title, Raphael Patai, wrote a sequel that readers here might find interesting called “The Jewish Mind.””
“As I see it, the role of the intellectual is to understand, and at most attempt to manage the interactions between cultures in the most efficient and peaceful possible manner so that each can pursue its God-given role. Vis-à-vis control-oriented Jews, this means managing their tendencies towards monopoly and totalitarianism so that they aren’t allowed to artificially suppress the actualization of other peoples and cultures through authoritarian intrigue and warmongering.”
So why do you put the governor on your keyboard now? I will tell you why, because you were ripped wide open and exposed for what your are and espouse.
Thanks, v! I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who saw what he was.
Why are you so suddenly worked up, Mooser? Chris has been nothing if not consistent in his views. I find his posts provide a pleasant balance against the left-wing humanism of this blog.
Most liberal blogs simply amount to a group of people who think exactly the same attempting to impress each other, and then becoming enraged when no one outside their bubble understands or agrees with them.
Most blogs of any sort consist of like minded people. Some variety is good, but I don’t find bigotry of any sort “refreshing”.
In this case you’ve got Chris spouting some very old-fashioned anti-semitic crap (mixed in with some legitimate points about leftist sins, which I say as a lefty) and it enrages some of us for the same reason we’re enraged by the anti-Arab crap being spouted by Michael. There’s a line between telling the truth about the flaws in a given culture or ethnic group and obsessing about those flaws, talking about them to the exclusion of almost everything else, and essentially demonizing them. This is what both Chris and Michael do. Chris blames virtually everything that has gone wrong in the Western world on Jews, and Michael blames the entire Israel/Palestine conflict on Arabs. The mindset is the same.
Donald,
“and it enrages some of us for the same reason we’re enraged by the anti-Arab crap being spouted by Michael.”
I am not anti-Arab, Donald. Hasan Newash, the head of the Palestine Office in Detroit is the only Arab wishing to be known as a Palestinian that I have met in person and actually dislike, and that is only because he cursed me out and refuses to speak with me under any circumstances. Childish behavior from a low class loser, and I have met hundreds. I even inquired about the possibility of marriage with a local Christian Arab from Gaza who’s family I was a good friend of many years ago. (It was my first blatant subjection to unapologetic racism by an Arab, come to think of it)
“There’s a line between telling the truth about the flaws in a given culture or ethnic group and obsessing about those flaws, talking about them to the exclusion of almost everything else, and essentially demonizing them. This is what both Chris and Michael do. Chris blames virtually everything that has gone wrong in the Western world on Jews, and Michael blames the entire Israel/Palestine conflict on Arabs. The mindset is the same.”
What does Mondoweiss do? Is this more faux outrage? Double standard? There is never a line about making sure honesty and facts are made public. Either you are lying, ignorant, or you are telling the truth in any statement you make. There is little grey area involved.
V,
I’m glad *you* have come out of the closet and unmasked yourself as motivated by ethnocentric Jewish interests and grievance. I can’t tell you the number of supposedly anti-racist, “post-religious” left-wing Jews I have encountered who, once you scratch the surface, turn out to be seething with suppressed Jewish rage and grievance, and whose entire underlying political orientation is contrived as a means of simultaneous self-promotion and racial and religious vengeance. There is no good will, benevolence, love of humanity or desire for justice to any of it whatsoever, even though that’s their affectation. It’s motivated by pure, red hot hatred, rage and the desire for retribution. And their left-totalitarian choice of politics reflects this.
I suppose if I was similarly motivated and vengeance-minded, I would adopt right-totalitarian politics. But the fact that I’m a libertarian demonstrates I’m willing to lay down my arms. But their prefered choice of angry-Left diaspora politics means a lot of Jews are still demanding a fight to the death with the entirety of humanity.
Mooser,
Thanks for laying the ground rules on using the English language. Only conceit can account for your misspelling of ‘usual’ as you derogated my own intelligence and wisdom on the subject at hand. Am I barred from Club Diversity now?
As a first observation this leads me to conclude that you have the overweening pride to consider yourself an expert on every subject you write about and that as a source of information we should all gather round and listen to the farts of wisdom seeping out of your mouth, that smells oddly similar to Weiss; nasty ass crack.
It takes a certain amount of simple minded hubris to start a line of thought with, “you can always tell”, when normal people, without your ESP power or access to a mother ship can’t always tell and therefore allow the content to convey a message instead of whining about syntax.
As to your questions, the Jews that Weiss demonized were the individuals that came up with the idea of educating young Jewish girls about religious infidelity. They are under no societal accepted threat of violence as their Muslim counterparts would be if they marry outside of Islam. While I am an agnostic, I recognize the importance of religion to others and I am sensitive to the complexities of being under siege and desiring all members of the group to stand firm against an external threat. On the same hand, there is a real problem that exists under Weiss’ very nose that he obviously chooses to ignore for personal reasons. He is biased, but even beyond that, with his endless demonization and mischaracterization he is engaging in something vile and malevolent that feeds a tangible evil.
Why do Jews need their own country? Because of people like you, Mooser. History has proven that even modern sophisticated society can erupt in anti-Semitism. Germany is the classic example. Jews need a sanctuary where they do not need to rely on others for their existence and it is people like you and the authors of this site that are making their existence ever more perilous through your fanatical lying.
Jews do get along with everybody, Moosy. They are the masters of getting along with others or they could not have survived as a people without land for two thousand years. No other people in history have been able to do it. I am Irish, French and American Indian (kiowa), where are the Jutes? The Angles? The Saxons? The Gauls? The Celts? They all had unique customs, language, and religion, but they are all gone or assimilated into something else. The Jews preserved all these things though, without a land, without a contiguous expanse of connected homes, farms, shops, or communities linked together in a common cause. If you can’t comprehend the magnitude of this you have no more than a child’s grasp of the larger picture.
As to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians, there was no autonomous group of Arabs connected to the land. No unique group of Arabs ever defined themselves as Palestinians, no semi autonomous region existed during Ottoman times, the area was known for it’s Jewish character and nothing else. Why would they assume the Arabs would hate them? The spokesman for the Arabs, Faisel agreed to a Jewish state on both sides of the Jordan. I think the original Jews underestimated the power of Arab racism and Islamic bigotry, but the obvious glaring answer to your question is that returing to Jerusalem is central to the Jewish faith. Jerusalem is the spiritual center of Judaism on earth. The Arab population did not explode until Jews arrived and provided an economic incentive for them to immigrate. Every indication at the time when the legality was being drafted pointed to a peaceful co-existence, not a displacement, even though much historical revisionism is also being reworked by other fanatics trying to attack every aspect of the reconstition of Israel.
“As to your questions, the Jews that Weiss demonized were the individuals that came up with the idea of educating young Jewish girls about religious infidelity.”
It’s good to know I’m not the only one that ran into that shikker Mohel
But at least I don’t try to threaten women if they want to go elsewhere, like those guys in Israel.
But Micheal, why didn’t you just write “No. 1, 2, 3 and 4, with a cherry on top” That would have neatly covered it. As it is, you managed to cram in every discredited hasbara line I ever heard.
But listen, pal, I know how it is. When you haven’t got it, the girls go elsewhere, and there’s really not much those guys can do about it.
I would call for better training for mohels I wonder if they are aware of all the problems they cause. Especially when we need every possible Jewish baby we can get! I tell you this Micheal, if the Palestinian Demographic Time Bomb ever goes off, the failure to defuse it can be laid sqaurely at the feet of the closed thighs of those Israeli women. As I’m sure you’ll agree.
And do you think maybe you could get some new hasbara? I’ve been listening to the same stuff for years, it’s been discredited a thousand times, and it makes you look stupid.
Oh, and Micheal, what’s a “reconstition”? My Hebrew is not very good, I’m better with Yiddish.
Israel has already been a nation. It has been reconstituted as one now. If you had half a clue you would recognize that these are the very words used in the Mandate for Palestine.
And on the subject of using Yiddish or whatever. I really am not a Jew, so if you think you are stinging me with your wonderful wit by throwing a bunch of gibberish at me, don’t bother. Until a few years ago I had never really met a practicing Jew. I know what a goy is and a few other common terms but unless I can guess what a mohel is your comment is bouncing off me like water. If you want me to understand you use English, if you are amusing yourself, or the crowd have fun talking to yourself, goof.
They are under no societal accepted threat of violence as their Muslim counterparts would be if they marry outside of Islam Yes, they are. Google the past two weeks. And it is incendiary to say that Islam preaches violence if someone marries outside of Islam. It doesn’t. Some fundamentalist Muslim groups might preach that, but it’s not in the Koran.
Why do Jews need their own country? [...] Jews need a sanctuary where they do not need to rely on others for their existence and it is people like you and the authors of this site that are making their existence ever more perilous through your fanatical lying. They’ve had their own country for 60 years, and dont nothing but war for more land. Israelis have relied upon American taxpayers to pay their freight. No on is making their existence perilous: it is the current Israeli leadership that aches for a pre-emptive war with Iran. Mooser’s ‘fanatical lying’ endangers Israel? You sound like a fucking drama queen.
As to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians, there was no autonomous group of Arabs connected to the land. No unique group of Arabs ever defined themselves as Palestinians, no semi autonomous region existed during Ottoman times, the area was known for it’s Jewish character and nothing else. Holy smoke! You need to get out on the information superhighway more and do a little research. Palestine had a passport and all Jewish inhabitants of the land had one pre-WWII. You need to see the maps from 200 BCE to now, you need to look at UN documents tabulating who lived there in the 20th C , and you need to look at their money and coinage.
People on this Web site are a little more sophisticated than you give them credit for. And educated. And the majority do their homework before walking in here with off-the-wall nonsense expecting sentient beings to buy it. Suggest you do the same.
MRW,
Look, alphabet letters I relish an ignorant dupe like you making statements about Islam that you can not back up. “it is incendiary to say that Islam preaches violence if someone marries outside of Islam. It doesn’t. Some fundamentalist Muslim groups might preach that, but it’s not in the Koran.”
link to islamqa.com
“It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a kaafir (non-Muslim), whether he is Jewish, Christian or an idol-worshipper, because the man has authority over his wife, and it is not permissible for a kaafir to have authority over a Muslim woman.”
” If a Muslim woman marries a kaafir when she knows the ruling, then she is a zaaniyah (adulteress), and her punishment is the punishment for adultery.”
Adultery is punishable by death.
“They’ve had their own country for 60 years, and dont nothing but war for more land.”
I reject the premise. They are not at war for land, if that were the case what is preventing them from using their tanks and just destroying the Middle East and seizing the oil fields for themselves? Why would they give away the Sinai if land is their goal, in fact why would they stop at the Suez when no force lay between them and Cairo at the conclusion of the Yom Kipur war?
“Israelis have relied upon American taxpayers to pay their freight.”
US aid is a small component of their GDP, I push for the US to cut aid, so they do not owe us loyalty, which has time and again stopped them short from defeating their enemies once and for all.
“No on is making their existence perilous: it is the current Israeli leadership that aches for a pre-emptive war with Iran”
It is Iran that is making genocidal threats. Israel is too small and the threat too real to ignore.
“Mooser’s ‘fanatical lying’ endangers Israel? You sound like a fucking drama queen.”
You sound like a fucking drag queen, your point, dumb ass?
“Holy smoke! You need to get out on the information superhighway more and do a little research. Palestine had a passport and all Jewish inhabitants of the land had one pre-WWII. You need to see the maps from 200 BCE to now, you need to look at UN documents tabulating who lived there in the 20th C , and you need to look at their money and coinage.”
I have seen all that and have yet to her Palestinian spoken or read a story of a legendary Palestinian folk hero, or see any archeology with Palestinian writing on it, and I have yet to read any eyewitness like, say Josephus telling us about the Palestinians that fought the Roman occupation along with the Israelites. Why don’t you pull over and smell the BO, point me to some of the attractions.
“People on this Web site are a little more sophisticated than you give them credit for.”
I hope you are not including yourself in that exclusive group?
“And educated.”
I have met some real first class buffoons with useless educations, Neve Gordon comes to mind.
“And the majority do their homework before walking in here with off-the-wall nonsense expecting sentient beings to buy it. Suggest you do the same.”
Thanks for commenting about the Arab racism I pointed out in the PLO Charter. Hope you sleep OK.
Re: “While I am an agnostic, I recognize the importance of religion to others and I am sensitive to the complexities of being under siege and desiring all members of the group to stand firm against an external threat.”
Since one can be a Jew and recognized as such even if one is also a declared atheist,
how does this differ from a German Nazi who did not specifically deny Christianity and often adhered to it as not inconsistent?
Re: “They are the masters of getting along with others or they could not have survived as a people without land for two thousand years.” And does this not also
strike a companion note that goyhim host nations are/ have been especially generous to the Jews–without even going into the deduction that other groups of peoples have been short-changed? This leads to the question, who is the usual historical victim, the goy masses or the Jews? It takes two to tango.
Re: “…where are the Jutes? The Angles? The Saxons? The Gauls? The Celts? They all had unique customs, language, and religion, but they are all gone or assimilated into something else.”
Well, yes and no. You deny England? France? Ireland? As to their respective diasporas, especially in the USA, it is true that they assimilated and now view
themselves as primarily “American.” Not so with the Jewish Americans. And you think that’s good for the USA? Please clarify.
And as to the Arabs, especially the Arabs who lived in the former Palestine Mandate
“since time immemorial,” why do you fault them for using their opponents to identify themselves? All they have done, after all, is take a page from Jewish history–and religion.
“Since one can be a Jew and recognized as such even if one is also a declared atheist,
how does this differ from a German Nazi who did not specifically deny Christianity and often adhered to it as not inconsistent?”
I am a simpleton. Can you rephrase this or are you insinuating that I am a Jew by birth claiming to be an agnostic? And what would it take to convince you that I am not a Jew. Does the fact that I am using my real name, I can be contacted by phone, have a my face or whatever account with photos of myself not add any credibility to what I have to say? What monumental balls do you think I have pinning my denial of Judaism in public?
“And does this not also
strike a companion note that goyhim host nations are/ have been especially generous to the Jews–without even going into the deduction that other groups of peoples have been short-changed? This leads to the question, who is the usual historical victim, the goy masses or the Jews? It takes two to tango.”
I am sure you would have been a fine candidate for the Einsatzgruppen with your blame the Jews for the world’s hatred logic you have, but let me create another image for you using your own logic right back at you…it takes two to tango, right? So the victim of violent rape carries how much of the blame? Could it be the clothes, the sexy talk, what are you saying are the factors when a victim of a pogrom deserves some blame?
“Well, yes and no. You deny England? France? Ireland? As to their respective diasporas, especially in the USA, it is true that they assimilated and now view
themselves as primarily “American.” Not so with the Jewish Americans. And you think that’s good for the USA? Please clarify.”
My point was that many ancient peoples no longer exist, but if they do and have a legitimate existential threat from their host countries I will support a return to their homeland if it is practical. The Kiowa side of my ancestry is a dying culture, but there is no threat of genocide looming over their heads. Conversely, the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians are culturally, religiously, and ethnically no different than the rest of the Arabs in the Middle East. They are in their current state of affairs through their own choice.
As to your ignorant supposition that the Arabs are just using the identity of their enemies and learning from them, I reject it because it is inherently racist. If they had a legitimate cause it would have manifest with or without Jews. The Jewish cause is the only legitimate cause that has existed “since time immemorial”.
“Conversely, the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians are culturally, religiously, and ethnically no different than the rest of the Arabs in the Middle East. They are in their current state of affairs through their own choice.”
A) Obviously, you’ve never actually been to the Middle East or meet very many Arabs. There’s a hell of a lot of cultural, religious and ethnic differences between, say, a Palestinian Arab versus a Saudi Arab, versus a Moroccan Arab. I would know, see, I’ve actually met all those different people. Take a tip — hang around with more than just white people. You’d be surprised at what you learn.
B) I’d like to know just how Palestinians chose to be ethnically cleansed from their own country by European immigrants. I mean, I suppose you could say it was the mistake of Palestine to serve as a refuge for Jews while Europeans were herding them into death camps or, you know, in earlier centuries burning them at the stake and having all manner of inquisition. Are you actually arguing that the mistake that Palestinians made was in choosing to save European Jews from the Nazi death machine? Really now?
Captain Chaos,
“A) Obviously, you’ve never actually been to the Middle East or meet very many Arabs. There’s a hell of a lot of cultural, religious and ethnic differences between, say, a Palestinian Arab versus a Saudi Arab, versus a Moroccan Arab. I would know, see, I’ve actually met all those different people. Take a tip — hang around with more than just white people. You’d be surprised at what you learn.”
That would be where your powers of deduction have failed you, Capt C, I have been to the Middle East and northern Africa. Have you, outside of one of your little ISM terror supporting guided tours, that is? Other places, well partna I seen a lil on t v. Have you ever gone alone on foot and just met any people there without the safety of your handlers? I can say without blinking an eye that I see Arabs every day of my life. Your point? How would you present yourself as a smarmy, condescending, jack ass if we were discussing the planet Pluto for example? Just curious about your e-credentials?
There is no difference between an Arab calling himself an Arab from Gaza and a Syrian from Damascus, or a Jordanian (East Bank Palestine) from Amman. I challenge you to show me any legitimate attempt to become autonomous or culturally unique by the Arabs prior to the arrival of the Jews.
Why was Jordan called Jordan? For the simple reason that there had never been a unique group attached to the land so they named it for the river Jordan. After the British stole it from the Jewish homeland they named it trans-Jordan precisely because they were creating something out of thin air from a portion of a larger whole. Why do you suppose I bring this up? Key words that come to mind for me are legitimacy of cause, connection to the land, a defined a distinct boundary to the lands claimed as a homeland, a cultural characteristic to compliment a legitmate cause. The fact is no other political entity has ever existed ‘solely’ within the confines of the land mislabeled Palestine except for the Jews.
“B) I’d like to know just how Palestinians chose to be ethnically cleansed from their own country by European immigrants. I mean, I suppose you could say it was the mistake of Palestine to serve as a refuge for Jews while Europeans were herding them into death camps or, you know, in earlier centuries burning them at the stake and having all manner of inquisition. Are you actually arguing that the mistake that Palestinians made was in choosing to save European Jews from the Nazi death machine? Really now?”
I reject the premise of your question. The Arabs calling themselves Palestinians were not ethnically cleansed from anywhere. Jews most certainly were expelled from all parts of the East Bank and from the land the East Bank Palestinians captured illegally in 1948, though. Oddly you didn’t mention them in your faux rage over injustice.
I also reject the premise that the Arabs had a country. That is a demonstrable lie. There was the Ottoman empire, a temporary British steward that screwed the Jews, and then there was Israel despite the efforts of the UN and Britain to see that they never became a country.
Now if you are referring to the war that the Arabs perpetuated with the Jews and the subsequent, mostly voluntary flight of Arabs to allow Arab soldiers flying modern British made aircraft and driving British made tanks, a clean shot at massacring Jews, I’m with you.
I also reject the premise that “Palestine” saved Jews. At the height of the need for a refuge Britain callously reduced Jewish immigration to a laughable trickle. At the single moment in time when the Jews needed a friend, the steward over the Jewish National Home shut the gates and sided with the Arabs. And lets not forget the arch villain that the Arabs of Mandatory Palestine created, Haj Amin Husseini. Husseini was part of the urging and incessant idea of the Nazi death camps. He toured them and urged the guards to work faster. He also demanded assurances that the camps would be set up in Jerusalem after the war and German victory to murder more Jews. What sort of dementia could cause someone to twist reality into even suggesting what you do in your ignorant question?
Here it is, at the end of WWI Jews were allowed to legally immigrate to the territory mislabeled Palestine without begging the Ottoman Sultan’s good graces anymore. Right or wrong was a mute point by then. They had the right to immigrate, unlike the millions of Mexicans that sneak across our own border every year that we oddly don’t kill or attack simply because they don’t speak our language and look like the majority of us. When enough Jews arrived the Muslim leaders called for a holy war to protect the suddenly swept up and cleaned Dome and Al Aqsa mosque they had neglected for centuries…well since the last jihad they needed to call for to expel Christian invaders with, anyway…for about 20 years the Arabs decided to terrorize the Jews with Fedayeen, the rapes and murders being justified by none other than the grand poo ba of Jerusalem, Amin Husseini, the Arabs chose this relationship over the one we have with our illegal immigrants, while oddly thousands of their brethren poured into the area seeking Jewish provided jobs, Palestinians chose their fate, then the UN decided to steal more land from the Jews and partition what was left, the Arabs rejected it and decided to double down, largely because there was an arms embargo on the Jews, but none on the surrounding Arab countries without the pesky integration issue, along about 1947 Arab soldiers from 7 different armies arrived driving modern British and Australian made tanks and flying British made aircraft, they called for Arabs to move aside so they could maximize the Jew killing, but when the dust settled many of the Arabs found themselves on the Arab side of the cease fire line. Those that found themselves on the inside were made citizens of Israel by the Jews, those on the outside were put into camps by the Arabs. Had the Arabs not chose war there would have been no refugees, if you think hard enough even you might see that the Arabs chose their own fate.
Yep Michael L
Joshua had it right. He murdered, raped, and robbed those rotten Cannanites in the name of his personal God. Pardon us, if we see that as your real premise and reject
your premise rejections because of your hypocrisy.
And don’t forget, the truth of Exodus was that the Jews didn’t like it when Egypt
treated them like any other conquered people (rather than war allies) and turned
them into day laborers for Egypt Public Works; so the Jews murdered, raped, and robbed select innocent Egyptian towns and hatted out across the desert with their ill-gotten gains, pursued by the Egyptian army–and none of the fleeing jewish criminals looked at all like Paul Neuman.
Now Micheal, he is hardly worth the effort, he is a common run of the mill Zionist, he does nothing but tread the same ground which has been dis-proven so readily that it is almost child’s play. Note -
“…I think the original Jews underestimated the power of Arab racism and Islamic bigotry…”
That was his silly point in posting to the Palestinian site. The same old nonsense of trying to reduce the conflict to racism via the Palestinians, or reducing it to some mystical malaise, or an ancient animosity. Pure rubbish, this would be like standing up in a classroom on American history and saying the indigenous population hated the colonists because they had white skin – or they did not like their religion, or some other spurious comment that would get him laughed out of the classroom. In fact, he should be the object of derisive laughter whenever he posts such ridiculous comments…LOL
Exactly. That statement proves what he is and that he’s not worth the effort of typing out a rebuttal.
People here are just feeding the troll when the respond to him.
“Why do Jews need their own country? Because of people like you, Mooser”
First I get my dick cut off short, and now Zionism is my fault? I tell you, this is a tough crowd.
So you knowingly short-shrift all those shiksas who flock to your attraction? Must be
an obsession to conjure up a wadded sock in the face of your nakedness. Perhaps
most of those shikas attracted to you are latent lesbians?
v,
As much as it pains me to address an alphabet letter, are you going to have my comments deleted on this thread if I lay into you again or can we have an actual civil discussion without name calling? I am fine with it, but whining to the mods must provke some introspection if one must resort to it, don”t you agree? Time permitting I try and answer all questions.
What is silly about the self evident fact that the cause of the conflict has little or nothing to do with land and that the twin roots of it are Arab racism and Islamic bigotry? If you can explain for example why they accepted Hashemite invaders from the Hedjaz as their rulers and not Jews from Europe I would like to understand the point of view. From 1948 to 1967 must be explained and must survive rigorous challenge for me to accept otherwise.
And I can tell you first hand, the story related to me by my grandfather, American Indians are not some generic noble savage. A range of human mindsets were in existence, some most definitely hated whites for all the reasons you just stated, though I agree that a student might get laughed out of class for stating the obvious, which is a huge reality problem. Do you think the pleasantries of torture, slavery, cannibalism, or human sacrifice were brought to the New World exclusively by the evil white men? Don;t fall into the trap of deeming the Arabs as the victims if the evil Zionists. It creates an acceptable form of discrimination that relies on a self delusional base of power for its existence.
Do you think the pleasantries of torture, slavery, cannibalism, or human sacrifice were brought to the New World exclusively by the evil white men?
Yeah, and it’s simply anti-Semitism which says Jews can’t do it, too.
Yes sir, that just how I want to practice my Judaism, by pointing out everyone else’s crimes, and insisting I as a Jew, have the right to commit them too.
So the way I read this is “Don’t bother us until we actually put 6 million Arabs in ovens” But, of course, than you can say “Stalin killed 35 million people, you can complain about us when we get to that number”.
Now there’s a way of practicing youe religion that’s sure to help you get along with everyone, Micheal.
Mooser,
No that is just you using fallacy in place of real discussion.
V made a positive assertion and tried to justify with the vague supporting evidence that a student would be ridiculed if he stated that the “indigenous population hated the colonists because they had white skin – or they did not like their religion” Meaning it was so obvious any school boy understands V to be correct. I reject that. Not that a school boy may get ridiculed by some NEA indoctrinated moon bat, but the premise that native Americans do not have the same social malaise, bias, and prejudices that whites do is laughably false and demeaning to American Indians through disempowering them in the face of relentless technological and societal change. They did what any other human would do in the same situation.
What you did is create a straw man out of a rebuttal. You took it to the absurd and then knocked the effigy down, wiped your hands, mopped your brow, and think you have accomplished something. You have done nothing but further my low opinion of your intellect.
I am interested in your final sentence though. It seems like a plea of desperation to me. The crux of the problem may be that you are ashamed of being Jewish and want others to accept you. Is being the object of so much hate a burden to you? Do you hide that you are a Jew in public? I would love to have a faith, any faith. I am envious of people that just know there is a benevolent God and an after life. I think it would be a great comfort on life…but I can’t let go of reality. And I seek to carry more of the burden. I seek to stand with the Jewish people in their struggle against world hatred. I live near the largest Arab community in America and am known on site by various anti-Israel groups, but I never fear standing with the Jews and Israel anywhere I go. <aybe I am wrong, there is no way of knowing because I have no way to verify any response you give. But I have a face book page with my photo on it and this is my name. I am prepared to drop the school boy crap any time you want to man up, or not, I care less.
Of course you include the Jews who profited from the slave trade, no? Not clear because you use the term “white men.” What did the white Western goys, and the
Jews who bankrolled them often enough and furnished the slave ships, do differently than the Africans who sold fellow blacks to them to furnish the slave trade with products? The white goys and their jewish partners constituted a simple business joint venture, no? The rascism was inherent since both white goys and jews would
have not happily joined in this business joint venture so easily if either felt any
affinity or brotherhood with the hapless blacks captured and enslaved by their own
racial but different tribe brothers.
Citizen,
The largest profiteers of the slave trade were Muslim Arabs. I am not sure I follow the connection you are trying to build from alphabet letter v claiming with smug confidence that Native Americans, which I am part of, did not hate whites for their skin color and religion, to me pointing out that native Americans held a variety of views and practiced a variety of quite ugly behaviors like slavery and cannibalism. How you are inching that concept towards Jews making money off of slavery is not how this is going to go. Do I think Jews made money selling slaves or funding slavers? I could care less, don’t know, and it doesn’t matter to me except as far as I am alive right now to try and prevent the evils I am faced with. Is slavery a part of Jewish custom? Muslims practice slavery because it is allowed by sharia law to hold slaves. If you can believe it, in the 21st century slavery is openly practiced in several places. And I am not talking about child slavery or prostitution, which I am sure you will point out is run or connected with a Jew somehow. I am talking about hereditary slavery where a child is born in bondage. The places where slavery is an open part of every day life, accepted by the majority, just happen to , oh coincidently, mostly be Muslim sharia compliant countries. Further, slaves leaving for the Americas were males at a two to one ratio because they were for economic usage, the slaves marched over land to Arabia were female at a two to one margin, because taking slaves in Islam has a sexual component to it. Those female slaves were destined to lead a life of sexual indenture and rape. I think I would prefer picking cotton to becoming a cum receptacle to some misogynist prick that believes in beating his own wife and slitting his own daughters throat if they don’t do exactly as he says.
I am still completely lost about this notion that there are Native American who react to white European settlers colonizing and ethnically cleansing Palestine in completely the opposite way their ancestors reacted to it when it happened to them.
” I am still completely lost about this notion that there are Native American who react to white European settlers colonizing and ethnically cleansing Palestine in completely the opposite way their ancestors reacted to it when it happened to them.”
If you were a native American you would side with the Israelis if you really gave it thought. You are trapped in a racist mind set that says white = bad, brown = oppressed victim of bad white. The conflict has nothing to do with land and the Jews are no the racists here, the Arabs are. The Jews lost their land and got it back after a long struggle for self determination. What is a native American not to admire about that? The Arabs are the invading colonizers to me. Their lands are in Arabia and they only hate Jews because the Jews are not Muslims and Arabs. it is forbidden for a Muslim to lose Waqf land to the control of a non-Muslim. I support the Jews exactly because I oppose bigotry and racism, which is the platform of our mutual enemy.
ML
Israel now is a focal point for international white (goy) slavery. Historical black slavery was financed by Jews. You deny that?
Thanks Michael, for revealing your chosen religion, even though MOTs such as Mooser reject your spiritual conversion. I suggest you go murder a few dozen
arabs praying in their version of a temple. That way you can get blessed by your chosen ones without actually memorizing the Talmud and Torah while standing
on one leg.
Gosh Micheal, it just pains you to address anybody here doesn’t it?
Zol dich chapen beim boych
You know, Micheal, a guy like you could very easily convince me that everything Chris says is true. I’ll have to look more carefully at his points. You prove them all so well. Maybe I’ll have to re-think my contention that us Jews are no worse than anybody else, cause you are a royal pain in the ass.
Chris, if Micheal is a typical example, maybe you aren’t so far off.
“You claiming to be a Jew carries absolutely no more weight than an Arab claiming to be a Palestinians to me.”
Right back at you pal. Are you a Jew, or just someone intent on proving that everything Chris says is true? You have exactly their high-handed attitude he’s talking about, along with absolutely no scruples about lying.
Oh, BTW agnostic, what temple do you go to? And you go to temple in spite of the fact of being an agnostic? My o my, maybe I should pay more attention to Chris, maybe he knows more than me about Jews.
Mooser,
I challenge you to personally point to one lie I have told AND allow me to defend the statement in full. That would require you staying on topic and dispensing with the ad hominems you use to hide from rational debate with. My guess is that you are too cowardly to accept. Hiding behind a ridiculous moniker is one of many signs that someone is reckless and ashamed of what they have to say.
Micheal, every word you say is a lie, including “the” and “and” but this is a good start:
“…I think the original Jews underestimated the power of Arab racism and Islamic bigotry…”
No, the early Zionists were pretty certain the are would stay under European control. When Britain and France pulled out they left the Israelis kvetching and trying ever since to drag a new shabbes goy into the area.
Micheal, every word you say is a lie, including “the” and “and” but this is a good start:
“…I think the original Jews underestimated the power of Arab racism and Islamic bigotry…”
No, the early Zionists were pretty certain the are would stay under European control. When Britain and France pulled out they left the Israelis kvetching and trying ever since to drag a new shabbes goy into the area.
There is no reply button under your double post, Mooser. Is that a spam protection to prevent the thread from being overwhelmed by your wit(less) comments?
I will respond to the validity of my comment tomorrow morning with supporting argument. I am going to sleep for tonight, I don’t have the staying power of a teenager like you. Do you at least live on your own? AND support yourself, son?
Notice how this windbag has to toss in an insult even before he gets to his actual reply.
No, you aren’t here for those things, just to crap out hasbara and make obnoxious demands that other’s justify themselves to you.
But as an illustration of the almost sociopathic Jewish sense of entitlement, we couldn’t ask for anyone better.
And I got mad when Phil talked about that. Maybe I don’t know my own co-religionists as well as I thought.
And yes Micheal, keep bragging about those Christian Zionists. Yup, now there’s the real friends of the Jews.
You are displaying a neurotic failure to accept that I am not a Jew. You can call every Jewish synagogue in my community and no Rabbi will say I am a member of his temple. There may be a few that have heard my name, I would be flattered if they did, and you can contact the head of the Jewish Community Counsel here and he will most certainly confirm I am not, because I have attended a number of their events to pose questions. What evidence are you willing to exchange that you are in fact are an observant Jew?
Oh gee, more crap about who’s a real Jew? Well, for starters, Michael and Mooser, were either of your mother’s Jews? That’s the usual first litmis test. Blood line.
Oops, typo: litmus test.
That counts me out, of course I don’t know what happened to great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandma on my mother’s side of the family that is not that far removed from Ireland. Perhaps a Jewish Auxilia attached to the Roman army did something unspeakable to one of my ancestors, who can say?
And once again, Micheal, what temple do you attend? Have you told the Rabbi you are agnostic? As an agnostic, do you attend temple only for the possible economic and social advantages available there?
Do you feel like explaining that to us?
Actually that’s exactly what you’ve done.
You begin your act w/ an attack on whoever you’re writing to OR Phil and this blog. No one attacked you, you came here looking to instigate.
You’re not funny and you’re not witty. No one is laughing, but you surely are a clown.
And please, think of new hasbara. It really is getting stale.
‘There are no Palestinians’
‘Jews are returning to their sacred holy, God-is-a-real-estate-agent, homeland’
‘Those Arabs and Muslims want to take over the world and kill ‘the Joooos’!
You’re pathetic.
Actually, Chris, that is partially what I did. That is what people do when they disagree with a premise. I appeal to emotion, no doubt. I am an emotional person that can’t understand the mindless hatred. I did ridicule this website and the sycophantic commentary attached. My only goal is the prevention of genocide. The sort of demonization undertaken here has been proven to be a precursor to genocide and I oppose it heart and soul.
This article is a perfect example. Being Jewish is not a race. Comparing white supremacists, who were all too willing to use violence in their hatred of the other is not a fair comparison of a Jewish leader who is FRIGHTENED of the other. It is a disgusting comparison and it exposes the deep hatred Phillip Weiss is capable of displaying in his personal war against Israel. The Rabbis that are afraid of losing numbers are afraid of the genocide that looms just beyond critical mass.
Now if you go back and reread my post I did not single anyone out but Phillip Weiss. I have posted here many times before without a response. I often wonder if I had my own forum because for days on end I was the only comment after dozens of articles. I don’t have time for that sort of writing, so I do what I can when I can.
This seems to be the question that got your pants in a bunch, but I would like an answer. Not a single one of you has done anything but insult someone who has the audacity to challenge the mighty word of Phillip Weissssssss. Sorry to shine the light in your little snake pit here, but you are deluding yourselves here, sound like a bunch of ISM whacks.
Tell me why the mention of the Arab race in a founding document is not racist. There is no Israeli law that discriminates based on race, yet the anti-Israel equivalent of Radio Rwanda here is using Goebbels-esque propaganda to demonize the innocent. There is racism in Israel, point it out, but stop the flagrant lying.
link to un.int
Sorry, I meant Cliff. Mooser throws Chris’s name around in frustration so much I automatically typed it by mistake. The above is directed at the oh so substantial contributor Cliff.
Based on race? The Israelis won’t allow the Palestinians their right of return. Doing so would change the ethnic makeup of their ‘Jewish State’. The formation of the ‘Jewish State’ as it was intended to be, and how it is now, would not have occurred w/o the expulsion/ethnic cleansing of 700-800K Palestinians.
And there are countless examples of Israeli institutionalized racism against Palestinian Arabs.
I recall hearing a lecture by Chomsky in which he compared the shutting down of newspapers in Nicaragua being condemned in the West vs the shutting down of newspapers in Jerusalem being ignored. The latter was OBVIOUSLY an ‘Arab’ newspaper. The claim made by the judge in the Israeli case, was that even though Israel is a democracy, it would not tolerate newspapers which threatened ‘the State’.
On the question of whether this newspaper was ‘threatening’ I don’t know just yet. I doubt it though. Regularly, this kind of language amounts to emotional blackmail. Just as Zionists regularly invoke the Holocaust to justify anything they do to the Palestinians, they regularly characterize anything that happens to the Zionist State through the lens of ‘Jewish identity’. So if some Jew is killed by an Arab, that Arab was a member of a terrorist network. The killing is politicized. Prime Minister Yahoo, just recently exploited the Holocaust in his speech to the whatever blah blah blah blah.
There is no flagrant lying taking place. I don’t even know what your argument is. You came in here ranting about essentially the focus on Israel. Not whether it’s racist. Which is why you began comparing. Now you’re accusing people of ‘lying’? Who lied? Why don’t you point THAT out.
My only goal is the prevention of genocide. Of whom and by whom?
The sort of demonization undertaken here has been proven to be a precursor to genocide and I oppose it heart and soul. Hunh? A little hyperbolic, no? Again, genocide of whom…I thought you didn’t give a damn about Palestinians.
Comparing white supremacists, who were all too willing to use violence in their hatred of the other is not a fair comparison of a Jewish leader who is FRIGHTENED of the other. Fear if fair as a reason to do hateful things, but one its consequences, violence, without the fearful expression to the world, is not? This doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, the logic is adolescent and unformed. And furthermore, if Mr. Leader is fearful, he shouldn’t be a leader. Dont tell me Jews are in danger of being wiped out in Israel. That’s preposterous. [If they bomb another country again, they might be, but that's called creating your own demise.]
The Rabbis that are afraid of losing numbers are afraid of the genocide that looms just beyond critical mass. Oh, effing pul-eeze. Critical mass of what?
There is no Israeli law that discriminates based on race. Yes, there is. Israeli Arabs do not have the same civic rights as Israeli Jews or New York Jews, for that matter. What about not allowing Jewish girls to marry Arabs…is that a law or a religious taboo in Israel?
You don’t conclude that the likes of David Duke is not motivated by fear of (relatively subtle) genocide?
Well, kudos to you for not accessing his web site. As to being Jewish as not a racial issue, you ignore the complexity of ID as as Jewish, as I stated above, and referenced
Judiasm 101 url. And you think Jews, via AIPAC, do not equate with using violence against their declared enemy, taking the American goy wallets to do so?
Get real.
Cliff,
Debating you is like clubbing a baby seal.
“Based on race? The Israelis won’t allow the Palestinians their right of return.”
It should be a simple task for an intellectual like you to point me to the body of law that states in unambiguous terms that this mythical “right of return” exists. The fact is, there is no legal treaty or body of international law that Israeli bound by that gives a “right or return” to your pet victims the poor, poor Arabs. It is a demand of return, or more accurately it is a demand of entry for millions that have never set foot in Israel and no nation is bound to its political demise even if it were a legal issue. Once we take concrete steps towards dismantling the lofty lies we will move that much closer to actual peace. Wearing your asses on your shoulders will only bring ridicule from people like me, Cliffy.
“Doing so would change the ethnic makeup of their ‘Jewish State’. The formation of the ‘Jewish State’ as it was intended to be, and how it is now, would not have occurred w/o the expulsion/ethnic cleansing of 700-800K Palestinians.”
The ethnic make up of the state is irrelevant. Jews come in all colors, even Arabs are Jews you seem to forget. The problem is that democracy does not exist anywhere in the Arab world, yet the expectation is that if millions of Arabs claiming to be refugees were suddenly allowed to overwhelm the system it would both collapse and be voted out of existence. No sane government would commit suicide this way and jeopardize its citizens to all the pogroms that would follow.
As to the tired expulsion canard, that has been thoroughly debunked countless times, it only has credence in dark crevices and under rocs where someone has not lifted them over to dry the mucus of the denizons like yourself slithering around under there, kind of like Mondoweiss forums.
“And there are countless examples of Israeli institutionalized racism against Palestinian Arabs.”
And as a good reporter you would have highlighted a few for me to judge, right? As a gut pile of stupidity you will just hope I go away or don’t notice your mental incontinence, huh?
“I recall hearing a lecture by Chomsky”
That explains much.
” in which he compared the shutting down of newspapers in Nicaragua being condemned in the West vs the shutting down of newspapers in Jerusalem being ignored. The latter was OBVIOUSLY an ‘Arab’ newspaper. The claim made by the judge in the Israeli case, was that even though Israel is a democracy, it would not tolerate newspapers which threatened ‘the State’.”
They don’t, the evil bastards. They shut down entire parties and have criminalized any thoughts of expelling unambiguously hostile Arabs.
“On the question of whether this newspaper was ‘threatening’ I don’t know just yet”
There is a lot of things you just don’t know yet. That seems to be your theme, Cliff.
“Regularly, this kind of language amounts to emotional blackmail. Just as Zionists regularly invoke the Holocaust to justify anything they do to the Palestinians,”
I reject the premise of that statement. What evidence do you have that Israelis use the Holocaust as justification for anything? Is it part of the marching orders, in the school curriculum, what? But should they use the Holocaust example for justification? Should a long history of suffering pogroms, forced conversions, massacres, deportations, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and the Holocaust be used to justify the very existence of the Jewish state for example? I think it does. But do they use the cover of the Holocaust to wantonly abuse the your guilded victim of choice? Not fucking hardly, toots.
“blah blah blah blah.”
That is the most intelligent comment you have made. Sad isn’t it?
“There is no flagrant lying taking place. I don’t even know what your argument is. You came in here ranting about essentially the focus on Israel. Not whether it’s racist. Which is why you began comparing. Now you’re accusing people of ‘lying’? Who lied? Why don’t you point THAT out.”
I thought I made it clear that the projection of racism is a false one. I gave a real example of racism connected to the conflict and the faux human rights workers here have ignored it.
UN Resolution 3376
UN General Assembly resolution 194
The Geneva Conventions of 1949
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Resolution 242 from the UN
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3236
etc. etc.
They are not ‘the Arabs’ you racist clown. They are Palestinians. Palestinian identity is a nationalistic identity. There is a ‘Palestinian people’.
“Have never set foot in Israel[...]” – This makes a lot of sense. Let’s just get rid of all the citizens of Israel who have never ‘set foot in Israel’ until they ‘set foot in Israel’. Gosh, you’re dense.
This is not about whether descendants lived in Historic Palestine or not. They have the right to return, simply because their families were dispossessed. By your inanely idiotic logic, no one has the right to ‘set foot in Israel’ because they never ‘set foot in Israel’. Of course not – that’s not a criteria for citizenship, it’s a Catch-22.
There are countless Jews who have no ties to the land, who come and colonize Palestinian land in the W.Bank. Meanwhile the people who were ethnically cleansed from their homes as well as their descendants live as refugees.
More meaningless rhetoric. About 4/5s of the bullshit you spew is pure insults.
The ethnic make up makes all the difference. I am not talking about Jews. I am talking about the refugees coming into the State and changing it’s ethnic makeup. Arabs would become the majority – JUST like before.
Furthermore, it wouldn’t be simply ‘the Arabs’ – it would be Palestinian Arabs. There is an ethnic and nationalistic identity. The Occupation itself has given the Palestinians an identity via their resistance. Palestinians simply living is an act of defiance against racists, warmongers, and bigots like you.
They ARE refugees. There is no dispute. For a racist like you, you don’t even consider them human beings, let alone a ‘Palestinian people’.
No sane government would occupy another people and their land for 40 years. No sane government would colonize/abuse/humiliate/murder/torture another people for 40 years. As much as the Palestinians are suffering, they will win in the end. There are too many of them. The world is beginning to pay attention to Israel much closer than it ever did before. And one by one, all these myths about Israel are being shattered. People will become more educated on the formation of the State – the ethnic cleansing, and the atrocities. They will remember all those bullshit movies Hollywood put out demonizing Arabs and Palestinians and realize it’s all a big lie.
No matter how bad it gets, there are simply too many Palestinians in the OT. And no amount of Holocaust huckstering will get people on Israel’s side ever again. You’re done. All that technology, and money and power and propaganda means nothing.
The ‘expulsion card’? I dare you to provide a counter-argument to the ‘expulsion card’ – prepared to be laughed out of this blog. And once again, the rest of your paragraph here is insults – compensating for your lack of a substantiated argument.
Of course they abuse the Holocaust. And there are PLENTY of other people all throughout history who have suffered horribly. You don’t see them shoving their suffering down peoples’ throats for purely political reasons.
As I said, just recently Prime Minister Yahoo did the old ‘there’s no business like Shoah business’ routine:
link to mondoweiss.net
All this stuff is so familiar. Maybe I will go into more detail later, it’s just that I’ve debated morons like you in some form or the other over the Internet too many times. You’re all the same. Same tired hasbara tactics. Same formula. All garbage.
I shouldn’t even continue w/ you. I’ll let other people add on to my arguments, but if you really insist on being embarrassed, I’ll spam this blog w/ tons of articles/studies/etc. to show you examples of institutional racism as well as just simple racism that exists in Israeli culture.
You’re a joke.
“UN Resolution 3376
UN General Assembly resolution 194
The Geneva Conventions of 1949
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Resolution 242 from the UN
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3236
etc. etc.”
UN Resolutions do not create international law. International law can not be created from a suggestion, which are what the above listed Chapter VI resolutions are. That removes 4/5 of the confetti you threw my way. You do know that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was not in effect when these so called refugees were formed, and that it is not retroactive, nor binding even on nations today beyond those that have incorporated it into their own national laws, and that the people you champion are a part of the OIC, which has rejected it anyway? I mean you would never apply a double standard of law would you? Just an absolute appalling ignorance of it, huh, comrade citizen? This is literally like clubbing a baby seal…whoopie.
Which leaves the Geneva Conventions of 1949, (also not in existence in 1948 when the refugees were formed), but more importantly a treaty between two lawful countries, or what they call High Contracting Party, to solve disputes of an international nature. Who is the High Contracting Party in this dispute? For 19 years it was Jordan. Then suddenly a non entity, non country, what is reconginzed as the High Contracting Party? Not hardly, comrade. But it doesn;t matter, because even if the Geneva Convention somehow did apply there is no language or article dedicated to a right of return.
Which leaves us the oh so menacing, “etc. etc.” You do post that with an intended dismissive flourish of your bony hand, didn’t you? So, is this your best shot? For your own self esteem you care about you better hope not,. because it is painfully obvious you are way out of your element here, wizard.
“They are not ‘the Arabs’ you racist clown. They are Palestinians. Palestinian identity is a nationalistic identity. There is a ‘Palestinian people’.”
They are not the Arabs? All this time I have been tricked. I’m crushed. Thanks for pointing it out for me, comrade. The Palestinian people is a myth created by racist Muslim supremacists to gain a fig leaf of cover on the naked hatred and blood lust. It gives anti-Semitic Westerners a convenient place to avert their gaze to when ignring the many inconsistencies in the ever evolving, as Afif Safia puts it, Arab narrative and the murderous deprivations against the Jews. A dedicated search was done to find the first reference to the Arabs in the media reffering to them as Palestinians, it was a New York times article in 1963. Not too shabby, to have concocted a nation from scratch with only the goal of destroying Jews in a land they tried to take by force only 15 years earlier and lost. To have evolved with so many willing and unwitting dupes such as yourself into accepting them as legitimate is astounding to me. Hats off to the propaganda coup, or dependency on Muslim oil. Name one defining characteristic of a Palestinian besides Jew hatred that sets them apart from the Jordanian Arabs? Usually when I ask them this they stare at me with a blank, far away glazed over expression, as if I am about to reveal the punch line to a joke or answer it for them. I honestly don’t know and I have been searching for one for a long time. Just because you have accepted the creation of a hate group don’t expect me to follow along with the rest of you lemmings.
““Have never set foot in Israel[...]” – This makes a lot of sense. Let’s just get rid of all the citizens of Israel who have never ’set foot in Israel’ until they ’set foot in Israel’. Gosh, you’re dense.”
Well it makes sense if you have half a functioning brain cell left that wasn’t burned into a toasted crisp by one too many bong hits, man. The other component to resolution of the ‘demand’ of return is to define, using internationally accepted standards, exactly who a refugee is and isn’t. Assuming you are willing to allow your pet victims to be judged by the same standards that evryone else is, descendants of refugees are not refugees.
“the term “refugee” shall apply to any person who … is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.”
Notice it does not include the children born in host countries. There is a whole host of problems with the UNRWA organization devoted eclusively to catering to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians, which happens to be devouring the lion’s share of the UN budget.
“This is not about whether descendants lived in Historic Palestine or not. They have the right to return, simply because their families were dispossessed. By your inanely idiotic logic, no one has the right to ’set foot in Israel’ because they never ’set foot in Israel’. Of course not – that’s not a criteria for citizenship, it’s a Catch-22.”
No that is your feeble old brain failing to compute, comrade. Each country can discriminate on who it allows in. That is how things work in the world. If Israel wants to allow Jews to move in it is their right to do so. If Saudi Arabia wants to bar permanent residents from citizenship while giving all other non-Palestinian residents citizenship, they are free to do so. If Iraq advertises for more people to immigrate, but excludes Arabs with Jordanian passports because they claim to be Palestinians, that it is their right. If Lebanon wants to bar Arabs claiming to be Palestinians from meaningful jobs that is their right. Things just work that way. The problem for your old as is you are eaten alive with Jew hatred and believe any lie told by the Arab propagandists you rely on to guide your every move. You couldn’t debate your way out of room full of 3rd graders, sir because you have no capability of independent thought.
“There are countless Jews who have no ties to the land, who come and colonize Palestinian land in the W.Bank. Meanwhile the people who were ethnically cleansed from their homes as well as their descendants live as refugees.”
There is no Palestinian land. If there was you could define where it starts and stops, but you see there is all this talk of final status and such that shows you are a loud mouthed idiot when you talk about Palestinian land being stolen by evil Jews. The reason why ‘some’ of your special people live in camps is that they or those in charge of them made the choice to live there. There are mansions there too but we never see picture of those, because it sends the wrong message, huh?
“About 4/5s of the bullshit you spew is pure insults.”
I respond in kind, sir. If you want to make a new deal with me, my tone can change in an instant. If you are having more fun being my punching bag, I’m cool with that. But be clear, my message is unwavering. I am only interested in accuracy and fact. Innuendo, speculation, and wild assed hackneyed drivel like Jews are colonists, ethnic cleansers and all that boring garbage is fair game. I can drop the insults the moment you wish to agree to a civil debate, I always leave the option for the other because I enjoy all manner of interaction. You will have to let me know though.
“The ethnic make up makes all the difference. I am not talking about Jews. I am talking about the refugees coming into the State and changing it’s ethnic makeup. Arabs would become the majority – JUST like before.”
Listen carefully to what I am saying, boob. The race of those coming into a Jewish state is irrelevant. It is not the ethnicity of those arriving, if 99% of the Jews left in the diaspora were black or Arab they would be welcomed with open arms into Israel today. It is the ideology of those arriving, that if given a vote would destroy everything built in a moment, that matters. Surely a senile anti-Semite like you can see that?
“Furthermore, it wouldn’t be simply ‘the Arabs’ – it would be Palestinian Arabs. There is an ethnic and nationalistic identity.”
Sure, it is defined only by hate of Jews, though and it’s shallow history goes only as far back as 1963.
“The Occupation itself has given the Palestinians an identity via their resistance. Palestinians simply living is an act of defiance against racists, warmongers, and bigots like you.”
What occupation are you referring to in 1964, moron? That is when the PLO was formed. What were they resisting for the next three years? Do you call hacking a man into pieces too old to run away resistance? How about befriending teenage back packers and bashing their brains in when they turn their backs? Or crushing the skull of a little girl for crying over the murder of her father? How about throwing unarmed cripples into the sea? How about shooting into the womb of an 8 months pregnant woman and her executing her 4 daughters strapped into their car seats and huddled in a terrified last embrace? Is that what you call resistence, hero? Is ripping the bodies apart of a lynched policeman and then dancing around the streets eating pieces of it for the cameras resistance? Or is it just plain old murder, and Jew hatred? You really are a disgusting piece of shit, morally devoid of anything I resemble as human, I don’t feel like responding to the rest of what you have to say except the tempting little bit about me being a joke, because if I am a joke, you are the butt of it, fool. Want to spam me with articles and links to Jewish racism, knock yourself out. You are a baby seal begging to be clubbed.
God spare us from the likes of your stolen Jewish fright, Michael. God especially spare the Palestinian babies from it, and our grunts in the Middle East and all us taxpayers too.
Citizen,
“God spare us from the likes of your stolen Jewish fright, Michael. God especially spare the Palestinian babies from it, and our grunts in the Middle East and all us taxpayers too.”
I just destroyed your entire ignorant premise that there is a legal right of return Israel is bound by and this is all you can respond with? Obviously being exposed as a lying, sack of shit, Nazi loving, anti-Semite, doesn’t bother you. Pardon me if I feel no reservation about going heavier on the ridicule from this point forward, you little twit.
Perhaps Micheal is trying to be a comedian, but actually he bores me to death the proverbial ironic clown –
NOT FUNNY
I think you are kind of funny yourself, alphabet letter. In a point and laugh sort of way.
Gosh, I was getting mad at Chris Moore for what I perceived as anti-Semitism.
And then Micheal “LaFavour” (C’mon, does that sound like a Jewish name to you? My name was shortened from something long and unpronouncable when my great grandparents arrived at Ellis Island. I think it was BullwinkleMooserwitz) comes and does his best to prove Chris right!
No, Micheal “Lafavour” has got to be an anti-semite posing as a Jew. It’s obvious! What Jew could be that mean-spirited? Could any Jew be that devoid of an ironic sense of humor? And the closemindedness! Not like any Jew I ever knew! And the lies! Jeez, most Jews I know would be struck dumb by guilt if they told so many lies.
Ahm , Mooser, you think CM is a fiction? If s0, you very naive.
Of course, there is one faint possiblity. I know it’s completely ridiculous, and both Micheal and Chris will say it can’t be true, but sometimes I think that possibly, after 2000 years and existing all over the world in disparate communities under a great range of conditions, there is a great diversity in Jewish thought and ways-of-being, and it was this great diversity, not insularity, which helped us to survive 2000 years.
But that couldn’t possibly be it, could it? I must be stupid to think that.
As Chris and Micheal both know, Jews are all the same.
Mooser, neither Chris nor Michael are worth much time. Chris is obsessed with Jews–he’s got a healthy distrust of power mixed in with the anti-semitic notion that Jews are behind most (or all?) of the evil in the world.
The antisemitic impulse is creeping back into the comments section around here and turning it into an embarrassment again, which is a shame, because it can be pretty good when people stick to legitimate human rights issues and don’t start dragging their ugly prejudices into it. Ultimately this is Phil’s responsibility.
Michael makes one or two obvious points that might have to be made with his mirror image opponent–someone stupid enough to believe that Arabs or Native Americans were perfect. But he thinks Zionists were perfect and repeats all the standard arguments you might find in a CAMERA ad, so he’s not worth engaging.
Donald, that’s why I am dead-set against universal infant circumcision. It means guys like LaFavour can “pass” like he does, without paying the apropriate price.
That’s rich, that’s really rich, a pseudo-Jewish agnostic calling me a “self-hating Jew” What some people will say, just to marry a girl whos father has money, it’s pathetic.
Donald September 25, 2009 at 10:27 pm
“Mooser, neither Chris nor Michael are worth much time.”
This is usually code for we don’t need the truth told we like our BS salted and dried.
“The antisemitic impulse is creeping back into the comments section around here and turning it into an embarrassment again”
Which is confusing because this implies the anti-Semitism does not exist in nearly every incitement to genocide post Weiss and Horowitz post here or that anti-Semitism has ever been missing from the form. But I digress there were dozens of comments a few months ago by just me and me alone so maybe you are right. When they redid the form the anti-Semites and sycophants joined the band leaders.
“which is a shame, because it can be pretty good when people stick to legitimate human rights issues and don’t start dragging their ugly prejudices into it. Ultimately this is Phil’s responsibility.”
To drag ugly prejudice into the already ugly Marxist and oil funded ugliness that permeates the web? Phillip Weiss does not care about human rights, dude, at least be intellectually honest with yourself.
“Michael makes one or two obvious points that might have to be made with his mirror image opponent–someone stupid enough to believe that Arabs or Native Americans were perfect. But he thinks Zionists were perfect and repeats all the standard arguments you might find in a CAMERA ad, so he’s not worth engaging.”
So accuracy in media is a standard that you consider not worth debating? I get it.
Mooser: re “self-hating jews”: “What some people will say, just to marry a girl whos father has money, it’s pathetic. Interesting, how do you know this motive at all?
From the sleeve worn jewish playboy character in the movie version of Cabaret?
There’s not much “diversity” involved in dividing the world into “Jews” and “Gentiles” (aka “us” and “them”).
You got a point here, Mooser, but you need to also see the connection between
the theory of diversity and how it favors the jews, yet in Israel and the OCT it is
ignored, precisely because it does not favor the jews. The test of virtue is power.
Since 1948 it gets increasingly clear that Jews are no better than any other human group; sometimes worse. Now, that’s an epiphany neither the anti-semites nor the
pro-semites can use. Not to mention it undermines the jewish pop version of their own biblical history, and focuses on real Judiasm, i.e., that G-D gave the jews a chance
and they failed a long time ago. What’s left for any agnostic or atheist is irrespective of jewish or christian or islamic ideology, for starters. Maybe we should look at Japan, long with the same land, as the Jews have been without land
so many centuries. What can we conclude?
You are not wrong, Mooser. The goys bey0nd all those shiksas who can’t wait to blow your cut dick as you describe, need to think of their own best long-time best interests.
Dear lurkers a little explanation may be in order to make sense of what just happened here. That very powerful photo at the beginning stirred the juices the local antisemites and reminded them of their heritage. They couldn’t control themselves, they just had to express their racial heritage. They were inspired to express some good old fashioned early 20th century antisemitism. This brought out our calling them on this. But also it brought out Michael L, an out and out zionist who can only find meaning in his life in the face of that good old-fashioned antisemitism. Every thing else is just detail.
No, what happened here was the photo left a misleading impression that equated anti-Communism with racism — an impression I wanted to correct by pointing out that racism is indeed irrational, but anti-Communism is not. Point of fact, Communism is the most racist ideology of all: misanthropy.
“So the question becomes: how can Jewry reconcile their cohesiveness, which necessarily encompasses the division of the world into Jews and Gentile “others,” with the imperatives of the secular-humanist socialist view of the modern world, which insists that there is no “other,” and acknowledgement of religo-ethno-cultural differences is inherently racist because it is a surrender to the obsolete intellectual framework of a primitive, tribal and racist past?” Chris Moore
Sure Chris, that’s just what you are doing.
This is what Micheal and Chris propose –
THE ARGUMENT
I don’t think so. The powerful photo merely raised the question of ethnocentricism
(rascism) in a particular historical and geographical context, and thus asked us to see any parallel
insights regarding the I-P situation today. The detail you dismiss here in the comment section of this blog under this particualr deriviative thread as “just detail” reminds me
of the adage “the devil is in the details.” Why be so dismissive of those here who
use their time without monetary compensation to share ideas and facts both historical and current?
That is a snappy insult, syvanen. How do you feel about Arab racism codified in the PLO Charter? Or the fact that for 19 years the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians didn;t go to war with the Hashemite occupation force over control of the homeland they can trace back at least as far back as 1968?
Check out Mike’s blog for a moment. Look at the links:
Masada2000
link to en.wikipedia.org
This clown references a Kahanist website, which was known for listing Jews it characterized as self-hating and demonized in the most vulgar fashion, while simulataneously attempting to lecture us on racism?
Go away troll.
That’s enough reason to ignore this racist and bigot. His blog is full of the typical right-wing/fanatical jingoist/Zionist garbage.
Gee I am a racist based on the evidence of what? A link and a few words. Is it an ESP medallion or something you have borrowed from Mooser? Or do you both report in to the same mother hip for that sort of information?
Out of curiosity, since my immediate family is composed of 4 races, and I won’t say which, this is my ‘immediate’ family now, what race am I a proponent of? Or do you equate criticism of the actions of any group to be racism? Just want to know how rules work inside the bubble cliff’s world is suspended in.
It is you who equates criticism of any jewish action as racism. Go to your true calling, turning the light switch off or on on the Jewish weekends. You’re allowed, after all and there’s a few tips in it for you.
Oh my God! Micheal is a Jew wanna-be! Oh my God that is so pathetic! And he is cross examining me about the depth of my Judaism? Wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles!
Anyway, I’ll say it once more: The Jews survived 2000 years of persecution because they developed a diversity of ways of being, doing and thinking
This is something that both anti-Semites and Zionists want very much to avoid talking about. It serves their purpose, both of them, to claim that there is one, insular way of being Jewish and way that Jews are, or have been.
But that is simply not true. And give it a thought, which do you think is more likely, that Jews survived by being all the same, or by being different, adopting and adapting differently to meet many different conditions?
But maybe we shouldn’t be to hard on Micheal, he’ll marry a Jewish girl, and their children will be Jewish, and when they grow up, they can move to the settlements.
Whoopee!
Well Mooser, we all acted different but we ALL thought the same…LOL That is Chris’s argument, we are all captive to the Jewish Mind. So stop trying to act differently when you know we are the same…it is deceptive. That is because we are sneaky and deceptive, it is part of the Jewish Mind – it makes us thieves and parasites…hehehe
, “it is part of the Jewish Mind – it makes us thieves and parasites…”
For God’s sake, don’t tell my wife, I’ve got her convinced it’s the result of an industrial accident.
Who would you say is more honest, Mooser, you or your wife? Please illustrate, thanks mucho.
What makes you think I want to be a Jew, in particular? This may be odd, but I am actually attracted to Islam believe it or not. The idea of polygamy has been a recurring fantasy all my life, I have a chauvinist streak, I’m not good looking and while I was single I would have like to have been able to force a good looking woman to marry me, and then be able to tell her to shut up or else…yeah, there is a lot to be said about having absolute mastery over the female of the species with little recourse for her. I think life works better when we know our roles and stick to them. Instead I got a bitchy wife that I had to jump through hoops to accommodate, starve and exercise myself half to death to attract, and that crosses her legs any time I step out of line. You bet, Islam is an attractive religion to me if I could get past the stonings, the amputations, the animal sacrifices, and the suicide required to get into the exclusive parts of paradise.
As to marrying a Jewish girl, if I would have known what I know now 17 years ago I would have definitely been looking, bub.
Well, Michael, loot at the upside, you will never know the price–you think your
wife is difficult? LOL. What a creep you are, by your own admission yet. And all
of this bigoted spiel you give us, simply because you were born physically ugly?
What seems to escape everyone is this: Although, yes, there are very cohesive groups of Jews, or Jewish organisations grouped around Israel and Zionism, Jews as a whole are a very diverse group.
I don’t see why that is so hard to understand, unless you are an anti-Semite or a Zionist.
You know, when I was younger, and moving around, I would very often be the first Jew people met. Not the first Jew they knew of, but the first one they knew. And very often they would ask “Are all Jews like you?” It was very important to get a handle on that, what “Jews are like” . Now I usually said “No, thank God” and explained that Jews were very diverse, and not centralised, and lived under very varying conditions.
But if I had said “Yup, all Jews are like me” well then, I might have become their image of all Jews.
Does it ever occur to you Chris, that certain Jews, say Zionists, have a vested interest in making you believe all Jews are like them? What are they going to say, “No we Zionists only represent a part of the Jews, some don’t believe ZIonism is the answer to our problems, others have Jewish relifious objections to Zionism, etc”
This cohesiveness you speak of is just as much a media creation as any self-serving messgae a group or religion spreads about itself.
I found myself in my earlier years often the first Goy Jews I met developed a more than shallow acquaintance with. They never asked me point blank, “Are all goys like you?” But I was always aware I was being judged as a goy sample since I had already been
judged according to negative stereotype by my Jewish wife’s family in no uncertain terms–as told to me from the mouth of my then SO Jewess. The cohesiveness of the Jews in the USA diaspora is a reality, as reflected in the postitive media creation you can see by
observing Hollywood and TV’s portrayal of jewish characters for the beer-soaked
Goy masses to absorb. Mooser simply capitalizes off this propaganda. After all, aren’t we all just Friends? Mooser may well be such a friend, but the big issue
is, is Israel? WW3 is at stake.
“Mooser may well be such a friend, but the big issue is, is Israel? WW3 is at stake.”
I am surprised you understand the gravity given your apparant lack of grasping the facts. But who’s side are you on? Something tells me it isn’t Israel if push comes to shove. A shame.
Jesus fuckin Christ, Citizen, Jews are 2% of the population. Do you think they don’t know Gentiles? They live in a sea of Gentiles. There is a small, very small cross section of Jews in America who have both the resources and the desire to live in an artificial social seperation from Gentiles.
Most Jews, whether they like it or not, know more Gentiles then they do Jews, whether they admit it or not (except for those who can afford and have the desire…) What the hell do you think we do, sit around and sell each other yamulkes?
Michael,
Unlike you, I have taken neither side of the bipolar mental world you live in. “Who’s side are you on?” reveals your drama queen life–life is really not a melodrama. Operas are just for entertainment. Quit confusing yours with real life.
Mooser, after living in Chicago and suburbs for 30 years I’ve found it’s very easy to live in a sea of gentiles, seldom wear a skull cap, and yet have intimacy only with fellow jews and pass that trait on to one’s children. That would describe many I’ve known better than my own extended family. No need to sit around and sell each other yamulkes–and you can even buy Mercedes or BMWs since the early 1970s.
Yea, I’m getting sick of this conflation of Zionism w/ Judaism or Jewish identity in general.
It serves the Zionist’s interests to conflate ALL Jews w/ them. To present Jews as a monolith.
This is the same thing Islamophobes and racists like Michael L., regularly write about and promote.
There is no difference between racists here, there, everywhere and at anytime. They are the same – whether they are Jewish or Arab or whatever.
Following the logic of a racist like Michael L., we could EASILY posit that ‘Jewish’ blah blah blah was the cause to all the problems in the blah blah blah. It would be even easier since Jews are very prominent in the Western intelligentsia and our government.
That’s what racism/bigotry/etc. is – it’s irrational. It’s self-serving. To demonize an entire people. To impose this demonetization on newborns and new generations of these people is despicable and sadly TYPICAL.
Michael L is a dime-a-dozen hater. It’s easy to be a intellectual grunt like him, when you consider how corrupt our culture is. How it presents us w/ stereotypes of Arabs and Muslims. It dehumanizes them. So we can justify whatever we do to them.
Similar, conflating Jewish identity w/ Zionism is also dehumanizing. It presupposes that Jews are hard-wired to think one-way, the ‘Jewish way’. I mean, its so idiotic it’s not worth going into any further, people understand how illogical this nationalistic myth is.
“Yea, I’m getting sick of this conflation of Zionism w/ Judaism or Jewish identity in general.”
I agree. But unlike you, perhaps, I am also sick of this conflation of gentile anti-Zionism with anti-semitism, dislike of Jews because they are Jews or because of their Jewishness. One would think that the difference would be more widely understood by American non-Zionist Jews, but after reading most of the comments in this thread I have my doubts about that.
Resistance to political Zionism in this country won’t get very far without more help from non-Jews. That is a point I have seen suggested by Phil, among other knowledgeable people.
I am also sick of this conflation of gentile anti-Zionism with anti-semitism,
No you are quite wrong. We objected to your characterization of some general Jewish national trait as leading to Bolshevism, zionism and the neocons. Mooser asked what was that general trait. I pointed out that the charge of Jewish Bolshevism was an old canard that motivated antisemites here in the US and Europe almost 100 years ago. A charge that effectively labelled the accuser of antisemitism. No one here equated antizionism with antisemitism. Paradoxically the only people who do are either zionists or antisemites.
Syvanen,
I should probably go back and follow the thread before replying, but I’m tired. I pointed out that the charge of Jewish Bolshevism was an old canard that motivated antisemites here in the US and Europe almost 100 years ago.
You can’t possibly be denying the heavy number of Jews involved in the Bolshevik movement. There’s too much evidence to the contrary. It was something that Herzl was sensitive to, something he could see coming up:
From Gabriel Kolko’s Israel: Mythologizing a 20th Century Accident from the June 2, 2007 edition of antiwar.com
You call it a ‘canard’ that Jews are associated with the Bolsheviks. It isn’t a canard, no matter how much you might want to will it so. The truth is the Jews were, and no less an historian of Gabriel Kolko’s calibre, who speaks and reads Hebrew, and who lived in Israel in 1949, writes about them in his books on the 20th C wars (although he is most famous for his far-reaching Vietnam book).
Also, Sever Plocker wrote in his YnetNews column (Dec. 21, 2006) Stalin’s Jews: We mustn’t forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish
Syvanen replies to me, “No you are quite wrong. We objected to your characterization of some general Jewish national trait as leading to Bolshevism, zionism and the neocons.”
No, you are quite wrong. You seem to have me confused with someone else. Go back and read what I wrote, especially in reply to Mooser. I never made any such reference to “some general Jewish national trait” leading to anything.
One thing I have learned from this thread, though, is that some ostensibly non-Zionist Jews (?) commenting on this blog tend to look for what they consider to be “anti-semitism” under every rock and in every nook and cranny. Why is that? In this case, could it simply be inbred animosity toward any intrusion by non-Jews? You tell me (after rereading what I wrote above, please).
I don’t know what percentage of Bolsheviks were Jewish and I’d trust Leander more than others on that. But suppose it was a high percentage.
It’s a logical error committed by all racists to think that just because a high percentage of bad group X (communists, islamic terrorists, etc) are members of a particular ethnic group that there is something intrinsic about that ethnic group that inclines them to support evil causes. (It’s also illogical to think that because most X’s are Y’s, most Y’s are X’s).
In the case of Russia, the Christian culture was deeply anti-semitic, so it wouldn’t be surprising if some Jews supported radical groups devoted to the overthrow of the government. I don’t know how many that actually was, but even if it had been a large number it would be normal human behavior given the circumstances. Similarly, Palestinians are treated like animals (somewhat similar to the way Jews were treated under the Czars), so it’s not surprising that some are drawn to support terrorist groups. In periods of extreme Israeli violence I’ve read that most Palestinians supported terrorist attacks as a way of fighting back. That was wrong, but understandable and hasbarists who use this as justification for racist attacks on Palestinians are contemptible.
But Germany was historically a refuge for Jews claiming persecution in the East, yet Jews like Rosa Luxemborg pulled a communist revolution there. And no country has been more welcoming and philo-Semitic than the US, still we find the Rosenbergs and so many other Jews repaying that kindness with subversion.
Thanks for the link on Jewish B0lshevism, MRW. But I’m afraid it’s not going to help. Many people have just too much invested in the notion of “antisemitism” to let the little matter of history stop them.
For them it will always be a matter of “Nazi memes”.
I dunno. I agree it’s not fair, OTH, the notion that many Jews think in terms of what they consider “good for the Jews” as priority number one is not a pure fiction. It goes a substantial way in figuring the disproportionate number of Jewish leaders in
Zionism, Socialism, Communism, and is a direct window into the American neocon movement.
Cliff,
“It serves the Zionist’s interests to conflate ALL Jews w/ them. To present Jews as a monolith.”
What is your point? You don’t think Zionists should try and appeal to as broad an audience as they can? Or do you think some other Jewish movement better represents the common denominator of Jewry better? Nobody outside the phantoms lurking around every corner in your mind claims to speak for all Jews, but it is possible to use generality when speaking of general terms.
“This is the same thing Islamophobes and racists like Michael L., regularly write about and promote.”
Oh, Cliffy. Do you know what I regularly write about? Have you read the bulk of my writing or are you just sore that I, oh fucking my, might see something of value at Masada 2000 or even the teachings of Kahane?
“There is no difference between racists here, there, everywhere and at anytime. They are the same – whether they are Jewish or Arab or whatever.”
Now we are getting somewhere. Can you comment on the codified racism your pet victims created in the PLO Charter?
“Following the logic of a racist like Michael L.”
You are projecting now just like Weiss. I see a pattern.
“That’s what racism/bigotry/etc. is – it’s irrational. It’s self-serving. To demonize an entire people. To impose this demonetization on newborns and new generations of these people is despicable and sadly TYPICAL.”
If you truly hold this sentiment then help me expose Mondoweiss for what it is, irrational, self serving, demonisation of Israelis. A documented precursor to genocide.
“Michael L is a dime-a-dozen hater.”
I can be had for a price, big boy, but if you are cruising for some caca it will cost you more than a dime, toots.
“It’s easy to be a intellectual grunt like him, when you consider how corrupt our culture is. How it presents us w/ stereotypes of Arabs and Muslims. It dehumanizes them. So we can justify whatever we do to them.”
What are we doing to them anyway? You sound like a Kovel wanna be pulling a dusty old platitude out of his chalk blown mummified ass. Is it the the bombs we dropped on the Serbs for the jihadis in Bosnia you are upset with, or the tons of food we delivered to Mogadishu and got ambushed for our kindness for, or maybe it is the Muslims of Aceh we air lifted supplies to during the aftermath of the tsunami, or the earth quakes in Algeria and Turkey we lent support to? I don’t get what you are yammering on about. It is not like Muslims have committed thousands of terrorist attacks since 9/11 on every non-Muslim other they are in contact with, in the name of their religion.
“Similar, conflating Jewish identity w/ Zionism is also dehumanizing. It presupposes that Jews are hard-wired to think one-way, the ‘Jewish way’. I mean, its so idiotic it’s not worth going into any further, people understand how illogical this nationalistic myth is. ”
Well you could change your name to ‘comrade’, comrade and we can join the new world order where the nation state is replaced by a hive mind overlord, or you can deal with the us against them politics of escaping an event that only leaves about half of you alive.
MRW, for some reason people like Michael and Mooser have in common that they
never dwell for an instant on that part of history you depict here, which is very true.
They fight like cats and dogs, but agree that part of history is to be discounted; lucky for them both the American and Israeli education systems also ignore that page of history.
Mooser’s histrionic reaction only shows how severely PC has limited the discussion outside Mondo Weiss. Many on the Jewish left want Israel to be a better actor, but they also want to keep full control of the discourse. When it was only the Sulzberger-owned NYT and Paley-owned CBS, that was possible. In the internet age, it no longer is. Thank God. Now we can all take this Jew’s advice to gentiles:
link to righteousjews.org
Uh, no. As mooser points out, you can find a no-holds barred condemnation of Zionism and its defenders at JSF. What you have here is both that, and also some old-fashioned anti-semites pedaling their crap. And I’m not Jewish, btw.
There’s also this tendency people have to respond to one form of stupidity with an opposing form of stupidity. Some Jews are bigots, like humans in general, and most if not all defenses of Israel’s actions generally involve some degree of racism and this is never discussed in the MSM, while they talk all the time about anti-semitism. I’ve noticed this for twenty years and it disgusts me. We should all be yelling about this (as Phil does), but the answer is not to respond with bigotry against Jews. That’s just the same disease in a different form–in some cases I think people feel that they’re doing this out of good motives, to balance the scales or something, but they’re mistaken. They’re just tainting the legitimate criticism of pro-Israeli racism by linking it with anti-Jewish racism. It’s handing the racist Israel-defenders a gift to do this. The pro-Israel types would love to portray some of the people at this blog as the typical kind of Zionist critic, because it fits in perfectly with their claim anti-zionism equals anti-semitism. They win the battle.
“… a no-holds barred condemnation of Zionism and its defenders at JSF”
I haven’t visited for a number of months, but I’ve followed the Palestinian solidarity movement for a number of years and so am aware of it. As the title suggests, JSF is more of a traditional J-blog, primarily concerned with Jewish identity and only secondarily with Palestine (and not at all with the damage the lobby has done to American society). Only recently has it even been possible to find an occassional Palestinian name mentioned. As at all J-blogs, “anti-semitism” is the only subject that really gets the juices flowing over there. Try talking about a linkage between Zionism and ideas of Jewishness, or try talking about Jewish power, and you would be banned.
Personally, I always regarded it as an obstacle to real progress. Just another form of gatekeeping.
“As the title suggests, JSF is more of a traditional J-blog, primarily concerned with Jewish identity and only secondarily with Palestine
Completely wrong, backwards in fact. “Jewish identity” is the subject that JSF is least concerned with. And the name (Sans Frontieres)is an ironcic reference to some sort of game.
JSF is almost entirely concerned with the actions of the Israelis, and the suffering of the Palestinians.
Try talking about a linkage between Zionism and ideas of Jewishness, or try talking about Jewish power, and you would be banned.
Donald,
“most if not all defenses of Israel’s actions generally involve some degree of racism and this is never discussed in the MSM, while they talk all the time about anti-semitism.”
Let’s explore this. So let’s take compulsory service for Israelis, except the Arabs of course. Is this racist to you? Or is it racist when Israeli Air Force drops leaflets and calls terrorist leaders that they are going to bomb the weapons lab under their home? Was it racist for a Jew in Germany in 1935 to want to take advantage of the right to immigrate under the Mandate for Palestine treaty? Was it racist to put up a security barrier to keep suicidal young men from entering shopping malls and buses with explosives strapped to their backs? Just curious if you can confront the racism codified in the PLO Charter along with you one sided, blinkered, condemnation of all things Israel. Thought not.
“ust curious if you can confront the racism codified in the PLO Charter along with you one sided, blinkered, condemnation of all things Israel. Thought not.”
Not only a racist, but stupid too. Assumes everyone is just like him, only on the other side. He reflexively defends Israel and assumes that someone disgusted by his idiocy would reflexively defend Arab anti-semitism, Arab terrorism, and other ugly features of Arab culture, because that’s how his own mind works. When you criticize side A you must blind yourself to the crimes of side B. It’s a useful snapshot of the sort of minds on both sides of this conflict that lead to the atrocities on both sides.
What rock do people like this live under?
Actually Micheal there is a certain type of serial killer that likes to drop messages to their victims, that they are going to killed sooner or later etc. I find little difference between this and the “merciful leaflets” dropped as a warning, because there probably is no weapons lab, and even if there was it is valid resistance to a murderous and genocidal occupation. The same goes for the monopoly under the Mandate for a Jewish state, the same applies to a wall which is for stealing more land and the best resources under the rubric of security, etc.
There is no racism in the charter, and you’re attempt to lump the Palestinians in with the rest of the Arab world is just like South African apartheid which used the same tactic saying the continent was filled with black people, and if they did not like what the Afrikaners were doing they could move elsewhere. All of your arguments are spurious, they are altogether worthless, you are like a wind up toy for some of the top ten worst lies on the subject. Why don’t you just slither away under the rock you came out from under Micheal? You are a novice thinking you are gifted with deception, you are about as deceptive as a child.
Thanks, Donald and V
Donald,
“Not only a racist, but stupid too. Assumes everyone is just like him, only on the other side. He reflexively defends Israel and assumes that someone disgusted by his idiocy would reflexively defend Arab anti-semitism, Arab terrorism, and other ugly features of Arab culture, because that’s how his own mind works.”
I notice you have yet to confront Arab racism or place it in context of the wider conflict. Or some ugly place in your psyche has allowed you to ignore root cause and simply focus on disjointed tragic events as if they happened in a historical vacuum. And we haven’t even begun to discuss the codified anti-Semitic and supremacist elements of Islam.
“When you criticize side A you must blind yourself to the crimes of side B. It’s a useful snapshot of the sort of minds on both sides of this conflict that lead to the atrocities on both sides.”
You should bear that in mind next time you are adding to ir subtracting from the internal scale that weighs all factors in determining who is really at fault for the next action you condemn. Something tells me you have your finger on the Israeli side of the scale like most of the demagogues here do when they determine who to vent their rage against. There are legitimate complaints about Israel, ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza, making any discussion of peaceful transfer a crime, outlawing patriotic parties, risking the lives of innocent Israeli soldiers to protect the lives of not so innocent Arab civilians, and more.
“What rock do people like this live under?”
I came out from under my rock five years ago when Tali Hatuel, her four young daughters, and her 8 months in the womb son were shot to death by two of the Arabs you have deemed to be the victims of this conflict. I am here to assist others, once the mucus dries it is not that bad in the light of day, you should try it, Donald.
“There are legitimate complaints about Israel, ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza, making any discussion of peaceful transfer a crime, outlawing patriotic parties, risking the lives of innocent Israeli soldiers to protect the lives of not so innocent Arab civilians, and more.”
In other words, in the eyes of a racist, Israel’s flaws are that it hasn’t been racist enough and hasn’t committed enough crimes against Arab civilians.
This guy contributes nothing except a glimpse into the abyss of his own soul. The view is rather icky.
alphabet letter v,
“Actually Micheal there is a certain type of serial killer that likes to drop messages to their victims, that they are going to killed sooner or later etc. I find little difference between this and the “merciful leaflets” dropped as a warning, because there probably is no weapons lab, and even if there was it is valid resistance to a murderous and genocidal occupation.”
That fact that you find little difference between a serial killer’s sadism and Israeli compassion for civilian life shows me that you are a deeply disturbed sociopath with a willingness to discard your twisted hatred when the evidence shows a different truth. Your sense of empathy has obviously atrophied to the point where you are no longer able to muster a logical argument to defend your own delusions. For without the essentially human quality of empathy there is no reason to feed the hungry, aid the injured, or defend the weak. And it is the absence of empathy that is probably responsible for all the murders, wars, massacres, pogroms, and genocides in history.
Humans are hard wired to protect little children, but in March of 2004 Ibrahim Mohammad Hammad, 22, and Faisal Abu Naqira, 26 shot the tires out of Tali Hatual’s family car, walked over to the stranded vehicle, shot three bullets into her swollen abdomen (she was 8 months pregnant with her soon to be born son) then proceeded to execute with two bullets to the back of the head each of her screaming terrified daughters, the oldest of which was only 11. The horrified medics found the children huddled together in a final embrace, and that disturbs me deeply, alphabet letter v. That Ibrahim and Faisal could not imagine the feelings of the innocent children they destroyed over something that became more pressing than their natural instinct to protect must be the very epitome of an absence of empathy. What’s worse is that Ibrahim and Faisal were able to slaughter their fellow human beings, not in the heat of sudden rage, not from a commitment to a distorted sense of honor, but routinely, just as so many of us go to work every day. Once we humanize our monsters, we no longer know where they get that monstrosity from. To claim the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians are engaging in legitimate resistance is to impose a blight on my moral universe that I can’t comprehend. Tell me of your world v. Tell me what stops Israel’s menacing arsenal and overwhelming might, it’s tanks, it’s planes, it’s machines of war are incapable of defeating a poor defenseless resistance group? In your fantasy world what is holding the Israelis back from completion of the genocide you claim they are waging? And what sort of genocide can you point to where the population of the victim steadily raises year after year? Do Israelis have a duality that can only exist in the parallel universe your mind operates in where they are monolithic brutal killers and all at once incompetent at completing their goals of murder?
.
“There is no racism in the charter”
So the 30+ mentions of who has mastery over the land are not indications of racism in your world?
“and you’re attempt to lump the Palestinians in with the rest of the Arab world is just like South African apartheid which used the same tactic saying the continent was filled with black people, and if they did not like what the Afrikaners were doing they could move elsewhere.”
Actually Africa has a multitude of cultural and linguistic diversity, the Middle East does not. Your analogy is a false one. The fact being you can not point out a single difference between an Arab wishing to be known as a Palestinian and a so called Jordanian.
“You are a novice thinking you are gifted with deception, you are about as deceptive as a child.”
That would be an insult to someone trying to be deceptive, but for me it is just more evidence that your sense of perception and ability to process information is warped. Kind of funny, in a point a laugh sort of way.
Thanks for addressing the premise I posited.
“In other words, in the eyes of a racist, Israel’s flaws are that it hasn’t been racist enough and hasn’t committed enough crimes against Arab civilians.”
By projecting your own racism on to me, you both cheapen what real racism is and you make yourself look desperate because you can’t muster the courage to take me head on. You really should wipe your chin, some rancid flecks of self esteem preservative is dribbling. A fragile ego is nothing to admire.
“This guy contributes nothing except a glimpse into the abyss of his own soul. The view is rather icky. ”
You glimpsed into my soul? I didn’t think I had one. What denomination was it? I am searching for a faith to believe in. Btw, I looked inside of your brain while you were napping and all I saw was a helium filled rubber glove wafting around the empty confines. Someone had scrawled death to Israel death to USA on it, oddly enough.
Michael, there’s some past lives involved between the biblical Exodus and the Balfour Declaration and Truman’s recognition of Israel’s second coming then and there. More people were negatively impacted than what is suggested by the Shoah. Quit living
in a cartoon universe. Mooser is right in despising you as a Jew wannabe. No universally ethical and honest jew would agree with your take on things you’ve commented on here on this blog. Nor would any universally ethical and honest non-jew. You are exactly what you say you are against. Everyone sees it here but you. Get a clue.
Meanwhile, back in the shetl:
Ill. high court OKs ‘Jews only’ inheritance
link to hosted.ap.org
More evidence that Jews aren’t ethnocentric?
There you go again! You take the actions of an individual Jew, in an individual matter, and say it must apply to all Jews. Maybe Max is just a dick of a Dad?
But how come Phil hasn’t been dis-inherited? Or me, for that matter? Or hundreds of thousands of other jews who married out and still collected their inheritance.
The legal principle is, BTW, that an inheritance is a gift, subject to any conditions the giver wants to impose. You can only break a will if you can prove incompetence or coercion.
When someone combs the web to find an individual Jew who does something selfish or bigoted, and then says that must apply to all Jews, gee, what do we call that?
And yet the sample point should be well taken by you, Mooser, because it underscores the USA congressional rubber-stamping of Israel right or wrong both as to settlements and the US UN security vote that shields Israel from any universal
take on Israeli actions.
Wow citizen, that was a jack be nimble, jack be quick, jack jump over the candlestick from the individual decision of one man in an extended family and US UN security votes…LOL
So all agree it’s bigoted. These questions remain:
If it’s just one bigoted individual, why did “his position w[i]n the support of several Jewish organizations, including Agudath Israel of America, a national Orthodox group”?
Where are all the champions of civil rights like Abe Foxman, Mark Potok and Alan Dershowitz, so ready to condemn bigotry in others?
For our resident lawyers, if it had been a white’s restriction to marry only whites, would the court ruling have been the same?
What’s puzzling about this ruling is that the Judge effectively limits the USA-granted individual rights of these grandchildren to the pursuit of happiness in ways they see fit in the future, unless they dont accept the bribery. Is this also the Jewish equivalent of Sharia Law being imposed in our courts? Have the US Courts permitted Sharia Law to supersede US Federal or State in certain jurisdictions, and for, perhaps, similar reasons? I dont know the answer. I do know that Federal courts have over-ridden religious tenets when adherence to it is deemed, in the eyes of the court, to affect the life of children: not letting a kid get certain cancer treatments, for instance.
Because it is not bigotry, comrade, America Last. There is no victim in this case, only greed and a sense of entitlement. The father is free in our country to give inheritance to all some or none of his prodigy, that is how it works here. He is free to gift his money to anyone he chooses, many of you hate Israel turds refuse to do business with stores that carry Israeli products. Is that bigotry? Should Trader Joe’s be able to sue you for not shopping there? Racism and the promotion of racism is not illegal here, nor is hate speech. At most you are free to ridicule and marginalize but you have no merit for a case to be brought against someone holding an opinion…yet. You have empowered a person that hates America and wants to ‘change’ it, so you may yet get the Orwellian control you hope big brother will have sooner than you think.
“The term bigot is often misused to pejoratively label those who merely oppose or disagree with the devotion of another. The correct use of the term, however, requires the elements of obstinacy, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing devotion.”
Granted, Israel and support for Israel are the main topics of this blog. It is therefore only natural that examples of racism and hypocrisy among Zionists and Jews will predominate. But look what happens when Phil dares to post some small reference to non-Jewish racism (non-generalising and outmoded, at that). All hell breaks loose, and discussion turns once again to “the Jews”.
I would like to suggest another term, to complement Phil’s PEP – POP (Progressive Only on Palestine). I’m not into toilet humour, so I’ve only included one of the ‘o’s in the acronym, but please feel free to include as many vowels as you like.
Hi Shmuel. Please elaborate. I and many others value what you say. What non-Jewish racism are you referring to? Any specifics?
I’m not sure that you will value what I have to say on this matter, Citizen, because others here have explained it quite well, and they have been dismissed as ethnocentric, posturing anti-Zionists.
The entire thread began with a thesis full of generalisations and gaps that I can only explain – in my limited dualistic Jewish mind – with anti-Jewish prejudice. Zionism is a Jewish national movement; one rejected by the vast majority of Jews on the planet until external forces, well-exploited by an ideologically-motivated minority, caused them to change their minds. The roots of this movement draw upon ALL of the cultural and political roots of its founders, including their interpretation of Jewish history and identity (and religion, for some), as well as many environmental factors.
This undeniably Jewish movement (in the sense of a movement founded by Jews and for Jews) that has caused a great deal of harm to the Palestinians (and to the Jews themselves), was lumped together with another movement that caused a great deal of harm to a great many people, suggesting that the second was also in some way essentially Jewish, because its members included a disproportionate number of Jews. Of course the original opponents of that movement (the Mensheviks) and its victims, also included a disproportionate number of Jews, but that is conveniently forgotten, because it spoils the thesis that there is something about Jews that makes them a menace to “normal” society.
To complete the picture, and possibly give the impression of being fair and balanced (it’s not just the Left, after all), the neocons are thrown into the mixture. Heavy Jewish presence there, no denying that. I’m not sure that I would glorify that bunch of psychopaths with a distinct ideological identity apart from their Zionism, but they didn’t invade Iraq all by themselves, with their laptops and laser pointers now, did they. Their Zionist agenda resonated with some very American ideas and aspirations (not to mention a desire for revenge, after 9/11). But I forgot, that was all taken care of by the Media Jews. No independent thought whatsoever out there in ZOGland.
A disproportionate number of Italian Jews took part in Garibaldi’s struggle for Italian unification, and until they were purged by the Fascists, as non-Aryans (another laugh that – the “nordic-Aryan Italic race”), there were a disproportionate number of Jewish generals in the Italian armed forces. What are we supposed to deduce from that? Maybe they wanted to acquire power for the beneft of their “race”, at the expense of “normal” Italians, or maybe they just didn’t like being locked up at night in the pope’s ghettos .
We’ve been there before, Citizen. “The Jews” are responsible for the evils of capitalism and the evils of communism; for religious fanatacism and for atheism; for anti-black racism and forced integration; for the slave trade and the civil war; for the bomb, psychoanalysis, immigration, multiculturalism, and everything else “normal” people don’t like or want. They are a menace to “normal” people everywhere.
We do bear a unique responsibility however, for the suffering inflicted upon the Palestinians – not because it’s “the Jews” who are doing it, but because those who are doing it claim it is being done by and for all of us, and because we anti-Zionists Jews have a decided advantage when it comes to shattering Zionist spin. Speaking for myself, I am committed to the Palestinian cause, which brings me significant grief from other Jews, including friends (mostly former friends) and family. I do not need racists of another kind, hitching a free ride, and spreading hate of another sort in my name.
I used to belong to a great e-mail list called Al-Awda, where I got a fantastic education about Palestinian issues, as seen by Palestinians. There were some non-Palestinian hangers-on there, who felt it was an appropriate forum to spread their anti-Jewish hate. It was heartening to see them put in their place by honest, truly decent Palestinians such as Ali Abunimah, who told them that the Palestinian cause didn’t need or want them.
There is no censorship or “PC” here, just an attempt t0 be honest and apply a single standard to everyone. All racism and bigotry is vile, and it is extremely frustrating and depressing when a struggle against such ideas and actions is exploited just to spread more of the same. I really appreciated the way some of the issues raised on this thread were discussed honestly and openly on another, recent thread. I have no problem with questions, just with irrational arguments stitched together to support preconceived intolerance.
In future, I plan to avoid participating in threads such as this. They are about as useful, in terms of the free exchange of ideas, as trying to argue with Witty.
I hope that answers your question, Citizen. And if it doesn’t, tough.
Sorry, Citizen. Long rant that didn’t answer the actual question you asked. By “non-Jewish racism” I just meant the picture Phil posted. I feel better for the rant though.
It was a pretty good rant, though, Shmuel. You said what I think (though I’m Christian) better than I have.
Shmuel,
“We do bear a unique responsibility however, for the suffering inflicted upon the Palestinians – not because it’s “the Jews” who are doing it, but because those who are doing it claim it is being done by and for all of us, and because we anti-Zionists Jews have a decided advantage when it comes to shattering Zionist spin. Speaking for myself, I am committed to the Palestinian cause, which brings me significant grief from other Jews, including friends (mostly former friends) and family. I do not need racists of another kind, hitching a free ride, and spreading hate of another sort in my name.”
At least you are honest that you shamelessly use your Jewish identity as a weapon. The first time a lovely young Israeli professor told me that I was “being obstructionist” for my enthusiasm input in a strategy session on how to handle a televised debate with a group of Arab activists I felt like I was slapped in the face with a boat oar. The Israeli team got their asses handed to them on a platter and it wasn’t until the end when I was called on to quote the relevant sections of UN Resolution 194, which I had brought a copy of in preparation. Jews in name only like you no longer phase me. I am distrubed that anyone can so callously disregard Jewish concerns of the violence Israeli Jews are forced to live their lives under, but the fact that you are a Jew is of no consequence. Hate comes in all sizes and shape.
“There is no censorship or “PC” here, just an attempt t0 be honest and apply a single standard to everyone. All racism and bigotry is vile, and it is extremely frustrating and depressing when a struggle against such ideas and actions is exploited just to spread more of the same. I really appreciated the way some of the issues raised on this thread were discussed honestly and openly on another, recent thread. I have no problem with questions, just with irrational arguments stitched together to support preconceived intolerance.”
Do you have a comment on the Arab racism codified in the PLO Charter? Or does your unholy love afair with the Muslims that have rid their lands of sub humans like yourself blinded you to any evil they produce?
Mr. LeFavour – Thank you so much for your concern for Israeli Jews. I will take a leaf out of Abunimah’s book and tell you we don’t want or need your kind of support.
Shmuel,
Thank you so much for your concern about my methods, but I neither solicit advice or take suggestions from Chamberlain-esque appeasers or sufferers from Stockholm Syndrome. I can say with steely eyed certainty that taking a leaf out of Jew hater Abunitwit’s book of how to kill Jews with trickery is not the kind of support Israel needs.
Shmuel, thank you for your input. I agree with you. Pay no attention to the rascist
ML; he’s as hopeless as whomever wrote the Pal charter he constantly brings up, or
those Talmudists who wrote down anti-goy dialogues back in the day.
Shouldn’t we first be talking about the salience of Palestine? Most Americans aren’t progressive at all nor are we particularly political or outward-looking. How is it we’re sucked into the affairs of Palestine in a way that we’re not in the dozens of other ethically murky ethnic and religious conflicts around the world? Why do I know of Gilad Shalit but no one in Aceh or Sri Lanka? Given the enormity of The Lobby’s propaganda barrage, and its stark moralism, it’s not surprising that some of us would make a point of looking into this particular matter independently, and find that things are not as we’re told.
We could start by being honest. There is no such place as Palestine and there never has been. It was the land of Israel until Romans tried to erase the Jewish connection to the land. And now it is Palestine revived because it is easy to shit on Jews and always will be.
Given the enormity of the lobby (new Nazi code for the Jewish cabal Hitler feared) why can’t they convince any American President that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? We passed the Embassy Relocation Act into law under Clinton but just can’t seem to move the embassy. How about getting Jonathon Pollard released? The ZOA mounts a petition and spends resouces all the tie trying to get him released? What gives? Or is it that you and the rest of the Walt and Mearsheimer sycophantic dupes have your heads up your asses like they do?
What would you know about being honest Micheal? Are you going to bring us fairy tales about the Romans causing a diaspora (or better yet the nonsense about the Exodus?)? Interesting assumptions you have with not the least bit of proof, just pronouncements. Are you going to discount the local territories of the Palestinians because they saw themselves as part of a larger Arab contingency? Perhaps like the Tutsi see themselves as part of Africa but can be denied of their local territories? What utter nonsense.
By going back to some supposed Roman act are you trying to say that people 2000 plus years removed can now just step in and reclaim their heritage? If so when are you going back to drive some from Ireland to claim your homeland? What other idiotic arguments do you have based on fantasy and lies? They are all common Zionist fodder.
alphabet letter v (small case),
“What would you know about being honest Micheal?”
I know that you are not honest with yourself let alone any part of the world beyond the aspic coated rarified jar of grease you view the world from within.
“Are you going to bring us fairy tales about the Romans causing a diaspora (or better yet the nonsense about the Exodus?)? Interesting assumptions you have with not the least bit of proof, just pronouncements. Are you going to discount the local territories of the Palestinians because they saw themselves as part of a larger Arab contingency?”
I discount any movement that is based on racism and hatred of Jews. If those territories” were so important that they have a right to kill over, why did the murderous urge only manifest itself AFTER Jews came to power there?
So we should take a pretentious ass’ word over Josephus, Dio Cassius, Tacitus, and many others eye witness historians of the time, as well as archaeological evidence like letters from Bar Kochva on display at the Israel Museum, or the works of later historians like Gibbons, Robert Wolfe, Harry Leon, huh v the expert on every subject? Is that what you want us to believe, Nazi? Just because you make an ignorant assertion doesn’t make it true, it only makes it more certain with every ill thought word you type that you do not have a sense of shame to go with your lack of empathy, because you are being made to look like a first class blow hard.
“Perhaps like the Tutsi see themselves as part of Africa but can be denied of their local territories? What utter nonsense.”
Unlike the Arabs suddenly calling themselves Palestinians for political purposes only, we know exactly what makes a Tutsi, or a Kurd, or an Irishman different from an African, a Middle Easterner, or a European. Unlike the group you have deemed the victim, deserving of endless second chances and excuses relieving them of all responsibility for their actions regardless of the barbarousness, Each of those groups has clear defining traits and territorial attachments that they are confined to, just like the Jews have. You are supporting a racist group with no history outside of Jew hatred.
“By going back to some supposed Roman act are you trying to say that people 2000 plus years removed can now just step in and reclaim their heritage?”
The argument was decided by the League of Nations, apparently they saw something you are unable to. Of course given your lack of empathy and third rate analysis of anthing you have shared here so far, it does not surprise me that the wisdom of it can’t penetrate the cloud of Jew hate your vision is clouded by.
“If so when are you going back to drive some from Ireland to claim your homeland?”
I am not under a threat of any magnitude where I am solely due to my ancestral origins or customs…yet, there is no need to, but if there were I would expect to be allowed to if there were no other place on earth speaking my language and observing my customs, where I could practice said custom openly, without shame, and with dignity, which happens to be a human right according to the declaration that your ilk like to bandy about when it suits your cause.
“What other idiotic arguments do you have based on fantasy and lies? They are all common Zionist fodder.:
I reject the premise that any of what I say is a fantasy or a lie and so far none of you ISM terrorist enablers have proven me wrong.
I turn around and leave for a while but am not surprised, I come back and see the same old hackneyed Zionist nonsense out of Micheal with attended venom. I have graduated to a Nazi in his site but he is the same dumb ass who cannot hold an argument in a thimble (because this represents what he says and its import, in fact, I am being generous) lol
Once again there was and is no racism in the main, nor was it the main reason for resistance, it was the theft of the land (as with the indigenous in the USA) by a colonial means. As in all cases like this it is necessary to marginalize the indigenous population(s), and to vilify them so that they seem like creatures from the underworld. This is the only thing that Micheal is good for, the same old colonial claptrap.
Since this is not the time (because I have little for the likes of you) or the venue for deep historical analysis lets say for arguments sake that you and your thin apparatus are correct (we can even broach the idea that there was some mystical kingdom like Camelot, if you like) – it still does not give someone the right to come and steal the property of another. Nor does it dismiss the fact that League of Nations in this instance was nothing but the extension of a colonial arm, and as the the current UN is nothing but an extension of those in global power through a so-called Security Council full of dominants. This is not a denial that it (UN) does not do good things sometimes, it is just captive to the will of the few for the most part.
Also, there were no “second chances” given to the Palestinians, they were squashed during the Mandate and afterward – have you ever read the Mandate Micheal? I doubt it, just like you are not familiar with what occurred during the time – so lets see, you are a historical ignoramus, a near history ignoramus, and a vociferous liar who keeps spouting nonsense about racism. You sound like a challenged person who goes to CAMERA for all of your fuel – do you think that if you repeat it obnoxiously that suddenly it will be true? Pre-Zionist pariah invasion no animosity was evident, even while Europe exploded with antisemitism the ME and surrounding region was a safe haven for Jewish people – is the rip off of Palestine how they are repaid?
Indeed, if you were to return to ol’ Ireland you would immigrate, not colonize. You would buy or build a home, not steal someones house, you would not come with standing armies and start a process of genocide – I mean the insidious list is endless. Get lost purveyor of state terrorism.
ML, the historians you name do not support your theme. And you deny the Palestinian people the right to resist criminal state action, a state itself initially instigated and then self-proclaimed
by well documented bare terrorism. You need to retake Hasbara 101, to say the least.
alphabet letter v
“I turn around and leave for a while but am not surprised, I come back and see the same old hackneyed Zionist nonsense out of Micheal with attended venom.”
Why are you complaining of “attended venom”? Go back and reread the very first post you addressed me with, dork. I respond to people the way they respond to me unless, as in the case of the propagandists of this blog, for example, I am convinced the person does not deserve respect.
In fact, go back and read all of the 6 times you have addressed me. What you will find is that you have a noticeable pattern of insulting and using simple denial in place of argument. Your first post to me fired a shot across my bow with an opening salvo of insults and denial without any essential supporting commentary. As an adult I think you can see that insults and denial do not make a rational argument? If I had responded to you in kind the conversation would have ensued something like…. your premise is not true and you are a blah blah blah, yes it is and you are a blah blah blah, no it is not and you are a blah blah blah, yes it is and you are a blah blah blah, etc… If you feel I am wrong, your mood setting opening remarks are there for all to see in post number 141.
Though you use Zionist as an insult, there is nothing wrong with being a Zionist. Conversely there absolutely is something objectively and dispassionately wrong, though, with rejecting the immigration of a dissimilar people, not because they bring tyranny, less freedom, consume your resources, or lower your quality of life…(Jews improved all those areas), but because they are not of the correct faith or race. The ideals of Islamic supremacism, where non-Muslims are unclean and Jews are something less than human, being descendant from apes and pigs, but tolerated as long as there is financial compensation for their existance, are something all liberal free men should oppose. Why you and your ilk have sided with racist supremacists is not clear to me.
You have supported terrorism, mass murder, and crimes against humanity right here in this forum with your craven acceptance of bomb making as being legitimate resistance, and of course, your one sided demonisation of Israelis when they do anything to protect their civilian citizens from those bombs. You claim the Arabs you call Palestinians are just resisting occupation, but is that why they went on waves of killing sprees hacking men, women, and children to death, torturing children, throwing them from buildings in front of their parents, raping Jewish women, and other ghastly crimes, in the 20s and 30s, decades before there was an Israel? You wonder why you are a Nazi? The Nazis used the big lie to mask their aggression, just as the Arabs use the lie of occupation to mask theirs, and for what? For killing Jews and nothing else, the land does not matter except that Jews must not be allowed to rule Muslims. Full stop.
“Once again there was and is no racism in the main, nor was it the main reason for resistance, it was the theft of the land (as with the indigenous in the USA) by a colonial means. As in all cases like this it is necessary to marginalize the indigenous population(s), and to vilify them so that they seem like creatures from the underworld. This is the only thing that Micheal is good for, the same old colonial claptrap.”
So the mention of the “Arab” race over 30 times in the PLO foundational document is not a manifestation of racism? The ignorant canard that white Jews stole land when the majority of Israelis are not white and all Jews of any color are welcome, let alone the fact that nothing was “stolen” from the Arabs is not racism? The fact that there was no resistance to invading, colonialist, Arab Muslims, the Hashemites, is not racism in light of the reaction to Jewish whites that jihad was launched against is not racism? The fact that for 19 years the Arabs living west of the Jordan river accepted Jordanian passports without a whimper or suggestion that their homeland was under occupation until white Jews arrived to liberate it is not racism?
I am curious though, if colonialism is your beef, why did the Arabs living east of the Jordan accept an invading force of Hashemite colonialists, that procceded to take away the freedom of every local Arab by proclaiming a dictatorial monarchy? Did these Hashemites bring personal liberty to a people accustomed to doing as it pleased, democracy, a higher standard of living? What loyalty did the Howeitat, the al Da’ajah, the Khawaled, the al Massaed, the Al Hadid, the Beni Sakher, or the Beni Hasan tribe owe to the invading Hashemites? Or was it because they were Arab, Muslim, and stronger that they accepted them? I would like you to explain that in light of your rejection of colonialism, and the fact that white Jews were seen as effeminate weaklings, non human, and above all filthy infidels. Vilification of who? Descendants of apes and pigs dehumanizes, a clear step leading to genocide, yet you seem unconcerned in your faux outrage.
As to your ignorant and demeaning mischaracterization of native Americans I resent it as a native American. Was there any room for racial diversity in pre colonial America? Was every parcel of land owned by a native? My history may be weak, but I forget the part where we all banned together and enacted immigration laws to keep the evil white man out.
“Since this is not the time (because I have little for the likes of you)”
You seem to be quite a stalker, for not having the time. You addressed me, I did not single you out.
“or the venue for deep historical analysis lets say for arguments sake that you and your thin apparatus are correct (we can even broach the idea that there was some mystical kingdom like Camelot, if you like) – it still does not give someone the right to come and steal the property of another.”
You are incapable of deep historical analysis or you would not hold the ignorant views you do. But if it is land theft that you are concerned with, there was very little privately held land, most of the privately held land was in the cities and owned by non-Muslims. It is inaccurate to fill in the blanks between these plots of land like a child’s dot to dot picture to formulate a rather simpleton’s view that the land was stolen from your favorite people. I suggest you look into the Ottoman land code and study the difference between milk, mawat, and miri land before you decide to take me on with a hahaha ha “deep historical analysis” of who got land stolen from them and how it applied to the thousands of Arabs claiming to be refugees in 1948.
“Nor does it dismiss the fact that League of Nations in this instance was nothing but the extension of a colonial arm, and as the the current UN is nothing but an extension of those in global power through a so-called Security Council full of dominants. This is not a denial that it (UN) does not do good things sometimes, it is just captive to the will of the few for the most part.”
And the world is controlled by a cabal, an Illuminati, Free Masons, or the Bilderberg group, right? The fact is the treaty or the Mandate of Palestine, right or wrong, is binding and gave Jews the right to immigrate to their ancestral land. To deny them that right is both anti-Semitic, Nazi, and illegal, not to mention immoral.
“Also, there were no “second chances” given to the Palestinians,”
Then you agree with the genocidal doctrine of the Hamas, the calls for bloody jihad from the Muslim leadership, the suicide bombings, the timing of daily rocket attacks to coincide with the 15 minutes Jewish school children walk to and from school, the lynching of two reserve policemen, the airplane hijackings, the attack on unarmed Jewish athletes at international sporting events, the throwing over the side of a wheel chair bound American Jew at sea, the bombings, the stabbings, the shootings, and the in your face deliberate massacre of innocent life? Because you sure seem to give plenty of second chances to those you have somehow convinced in your craven, Nazi mind are the victims.
“they were squashed during the Mandate and afterward”
Many British on the ground and back home did everything they could short of wantonly killing Jews themselves to prevent a Jewish state.
“have you ever read the Mandate Micheal?”
Have you? It does not mention anyone called Palestinians. Ever wonder why? The people you champion have allied themselves with the best propaganda machines in history, the Nazis and the Soviets and you bought it hook line and sinker, but can’t understand why I label you Nazi.
“You sound like a challenged person who goes to CAMERA for all of your fuel”
CAMERA keeps getting mentioned. Does accuracy upset you? It sure seems like it, of course if I held your views I would not want accurate information spread either.
“Pre-Zionist pariah invasion no animosity was evident, even while Europe exploded with antisemitism the ME and surrounding region was a safe haven for Jewish people – is the rip off of Palestine how they are repaid?”
Would you call the illegal immigration of Mexicans into America a pariah invasion? Just curious if you apply double standards. How about the legal immigration of millions of people from India? The majority of Americans are Christians, the Indians are Hindu. Do you support burning their shops, raping their wives and daughters, and killing their kids? The Arabs calling themselves Palestinians did just that to the legally immigrating Jews.
And as to the so called tolerance of Jews in the Middle East, you claim to be a deep thinking historian, but you would have to use the crutch of google to tell me what happened to the Banu Quraiza, or about the pact of Umar, or any number of anti-Jewish Muslim ideals. Is your argument that there was no anti-Jewish threat in the ME? Or that it was less threating to live in the ME as a Jew? To Muslims Jews are prophet killers and corrupters doomed to hell and that the very earth we inhabit so hates the Jews, in the end, rocks and plants will spring to life to help Muslims find and kill Jews hiding behind them. It would take a monumental ignorance of history to think that the humiliating relationship between master and slave, Muslim and Jew, was a “safe haven”.
“Indeed, if you were to return to ol’ Ireland you would immigrate, not colonize. You would buy or build a home, not steal someones house, you would not come with standing armies and start a process of genocide – I mean the insidious list is endless. Get lost purveyor of state terrorism.”
That is an odd statement in light of the fact that Jews did not arrive with weapons and an army. They arrived with love for the land and purchased land legally and sometimes at enormous prices once Arabs realized the profit they could make ripping the Jews off. The Jews paid, because they had little choice not to. When the price in money didn’t stop Jews purchasing land the Arabs started murdering their own for selling land. In either case, the world made sure the Jews were unarmed, at the start of the war of genocide against the unarmed Jewish immigrants there was an arms embargo against them enforced by a British naval blockade.
In the face of statements from Arab leaders like Azam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades” Jews were unable to acquire heavy weapons to defend themselves from the impending onslaught with. Holocaust survivors, which you callously claim were genocidal, barely after the sickening stench of ovens of Auschwitz were shut down, facing Muslim Nazi inspired threats couldn’t get weapons. At the start of the invasion by 7 Arab armies, only 1 in 3 Haganah soldiers had a weapon to fight with, the Jews had 6 crop dusters for an air force, no artillery, and only home made armored cars made using sheets of steel welded to trucks to face what they were up against. With the mission of driving the Jews into the sea (genocide, which you project onto genocide survivors in your Nazi hatred of Israel) Arabs driving Centurian and Matilda tanks rolled in to Jewish communities. Arabs piloting British made Spitfires, Hawker Hurricanes and C47s modified into crude bombers pounded the spread thin Jewish defenders. And 25 pounder guns lobbed shells into civilian packed neighborhoods of Jerusalem.
Yes, the world tried to finish the Jews off, but they failed. US Secretary of State George C. Marshall, stated on the eve of war, “Believe me, I am talking about things about which I know. You are sitting there in the coastal plains of Palestine, while the Arabs hold the mountain ridges. I know you have some arms and your Haganah, but the Arabs have regular armies. They are well trained and they have heavy arms. How can you hope hope to hold out?” But yet the US maintained the arms embargo. Alphabet letter v, though, the deep historian, thinks the Jews arrived with trumpets and guns blazing to steal land from the poor, poor Arab. And has the hubris to label what I have to say as stupid, run of the mill, rubbish, nonsense, and child’s play to rebut…
Never turn you’re back on a lying snake, that is the lesson for the day – look at this unmitigated horse shit this neophyte Micheal spews, absolutely unconscionable. Of course it took him two days to unearth his lies from other spurious sites to come back with a gaggle of crap.
You are not worth the effort, why continue with you? I could just take one point and land you on your stupid ear. As an example –
“You are incapable of deep historical analysis or you would not hold the ignorant views you do. But if it is land theft that you are concerned with, there was very little privately held land, most of the privately held land was in the cities and owned by non-Muslims. It is inaccurate to fill in the blanks between these plots of land like a child’s dot to dot picture to formulate a rather simpleton’s view that the land was stolen from your favorite people. I suggest you look into the Ottoman land code and study the difference between milk, mawat, and miri land before you decide to take me on with a hahaha ha “deep historical analysis” of who got land stolen from them and how it applied to the thousands of Arabs claiming to be refugees in 1948.”
Ergo, you have no historical anaylsis, what an idiot. You know about as much about Ottoman land code as a farmer in Iowa. First of all, whether primary owners or workers of the land all names are entered upon the document of equal ownership through working the land, genius. The Palestinian primaries were the first targets of the ethnic cleansing , they were specifically denied return. Your error is consistent with the landlord tenant error of Europe and America, which just really accentuates your complete ignorance. Your “deep historical anaylsis” is complete bullshit of the first degree – you should not even be addressing these subjects. However, what else can you expect from some fool who gets his information from lying Zionist sites? He will do nothing but repeat the lies. You have no idea who you are talking to big mouth, my recommendation to you is to shut up because this is just a small example of what I am capable of doing with the TRUTH, you have just begun to feel the sting.
” As to your ignorant and demeaning mischaracterization of native Americans I resent it as a native American. Was there any room for racial diversity in pre colonial America? Was every parcel of land owned by a native? My history may be weak, but I forget the part where we all banned together and enacted immigration laws to keep the evil white man out.”
If you are a descendant of Native Americans than there may be truth in Covington’ s statement at least in you’re case – that “nits make lice.” Native American’s did not have land ownership like the Europeans, they were an advanced society, and did not claim to own the land as much as the land owned them. However, if the colonials did not see them as nations nor owners of the land than they should have not made treaties with them and recognized them as they did (and than broke every single treaty). So the indigenous population did not have deeds to land like Europeans, but they were recognized as the owners via the treaty instruments. Your early statements about racism being the animus of the American Indians is laughable, there is no other way to describe it. Once again you make a fool out of yourself because you have no idea who you are conversing with (if you could call it that), I am a card carrying AIM member. I have walked the land with many tribes in America, and your persistent groundless buffoonery is really getting old to me.
So, I have dealt with just two points, because the rest of your nonsense about what is happening between Palestinians and Israelis is just a poor repeat of the same lies. Why don’t you get lost.
people love pointing out the faults of right-wing jews. i certainly do. just like i do with any phonies whatever their race or ethnicity. do you know why? right wing jews like right wing christians like right wing muslims have the attitude of ‘our shit don’t stink’ and ‘holier than thou’. puke and barf.
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At any rate, one point is irrefutable: when you claim there is a Jewish mass identity, Jewish psychological traits, whatever, positive or negative, you serve the purposes of the Zionists. After all, the more you can say there is a Jewish identity, the more you bolster their case that they should have their own state. It’s that simple.
And the more you justify and point out this Jewish identity, the more right Zionists have to talk about “the Arab mind” or the “Arab death culture” or whatever.
And I’ll say it again, and it’s true and easily proved: The survival of the Jews was aided by their diversity, not their insularity.
So was Zionism, by the way, since without any central mechanism for regulating the doctrine or religion, the great mass of Jews who did not see Zionism as a good alternative and the answer to Jewish problems had no voice. Those with the megaphone and the resources, and the influence with the colonial powers could seize the narrative, and say “All Jews think this”
And of course, Chris, tou being a simple-minded and bigoted chump, swalloed it whole.
But don’t worry, I am very used to non-Jews telling me how I should think and act as a Jew, they catch it from the Zionists, I think.
I’m sorry you seem to think of Jewishness as some kind of racial category, Mooser. Everyone else here is talking about the ideology of Jewishness.
I remember seeing your name years ago as JSF. I don’t remember ever seeing your name at any Palestinian soldiarity site. If you’re going to argue there’s no such thing as Jewishness, you’ll have to explain just what it is that makes you personally spend your days exclusively at sites devoted to the topic.
Well, Mooser, how can the goys insure their survival as other than sub-humans, as other than slaves in one form or another? You seem to think that slavery is fine for them since you brag about
the shiksas who cater to your every whim.
“fine for them since you brag about
the shiksas who cater to your every whim.”
Don’t you read what I post? Only till I found out that she had shot her first husband. Ever since then, I’ve been the caterer.
What makes it even worse is, her aim gets better when she’s been drinking, although I’m hard pressed to remember when she isn’t.
I’m just like anybody else, I want to live! (He lived, but limps pretty bad)
Yeah, I understand why she drinks; in her eyes you must be more worthy of life than her EX, who I assume was a brutal redneck, no? Still, not so much better she’s gonna get off the bottle, eh? Pathetic, but pretty normal, sort of like McCain’s wife.
I’m sorry you seem to think of Jewishness as some kind of racial category,
That’s the kind of logic I can slather mustard on and eat with beer.
And in your mustard slathered & beer-soaked logic, Mooser, what if any distinction is there between a jew and a non-jew?
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