Who would teargas ‘Avatar’?

Photo of Palestinians dressed up as Navi tribe from the film Avatar during weekly protest against the wall today, from unnamed photog for Reuters, at the Telegraph site.

avata
 

The video:

Posted in Israel/Palestine, US Politics

{ 82 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. annie says:

    AWESOME BREATHTAKING

  2. Pingback: Palestinians dressed as Na’vi « Vocal Eyes.

  3. Chu says:

    This would get more media attention, If they were riding those flying mountain banshees.

  4. radii says:

    At last! Finally the younger Palestinians and progressive Jews seem to be getting it that you have to use irony, humor, hipness, creativity and cleverness in addition to straight-up organizing to convey their message and penetrate the media din.

    I was shocked to hear a caller on C-SPAN this morning just lay into israel and their policies and not get cut off and actually have his question answered. After C-SPAN’s disgusting Book TV segment with rightwingnut and wannabe Republican leader Pete Hegseth “interview” pro-death neocon Kimberly Kagan with israeli PR talking points I thought I couldn’t trust C-SPAN anymore.

  5. Avi says:

    Every Palestinian should look like that whenever he or she are out protesting. The more TV cameras capture such images, the higher the likelihood of Palestinian plight resounding with westerners.

    • Seham says:

      Avi, I hear what you are saying but do you blame me for feeling annoyed that Palestinians must don Hollywood costumes before our humanity is recognized?

      • Chaos4700 says:

        I know it’s frustrating, Seham, but this is actually something that speaks to American culture and allows typical Americans — who are generally very isolated in a cultural sense even between different ethnic groups in the US, let alone with other nations — to gain an insight into what is going on that transcends decades of Zionist propaganda and media domination.

      • Avi says:

        Not at all, Seham. One of the saddest ironies of life, especially in today’s world, is that popular culture plays a major role in shaping people’s opinions and world view, more so in the US.

        It’s all about imagery these days, symbolism, “getting the message out”; it’s part of the dumbing down of the masses in the US where Tiger Wood’s personal life gets more airtime than the growing numbers of unemployment and home foreclosures. One has to appeal to the masses on a very basic and familiar level.
        It feels kind of icky to have to reduce suffering and misery to such crude form. In fact, I have more respect for the people in that photo who dressed up like that to get their point across than I do for myself right now. Why? Because recognize how desperate one needs to be to try ANYTHING in hopes of end one’s own suffering. And to do so knowing that their homes could be demolished tomorrow, or their family members whisked away in the middle of the night shows that they are brave enough to try this. I mean, they’re not doing this for fun. It’s not Halloween. It’s not Purim. They are under a military occupation and they have to dawn these symbolic “caricatures” just to get the world to pay attention.

      • Chu says:

        Yeah, it sucks.
        But if it people get the association, then so be it.

      • Pamela Olson says:

        Hi Seham, I know how frustrating this is. When I try to speak to most Americans about Palestine, they look at me like I’m speaking Martian. Palestinians themselves are that much more incomprehensible to Americans living comfortably in suburbs watching Survivor for their thrills, even though if they’d just listen with an open mind, they’d find so much common ground.

        That’s why the book I’m writing, Fast Times in Palestine, focuses on the aspects of Palestinian life that Americans can relate to. It lulls them into identifying with Palestinians. Then when something terrible happens, it feels like it’s happening to actual human beings. I think it will have a much bigger impact this way.

        It’s infuriating to have to skew my experiences toward someone else’s ideas simply for my Palestinian friends to be thought of as human beings. I can’t imagine how much more infuriating it is to be a Palestinian, where in this messed up world, you are basically considered subhuman until proven otherwise.

        Unfortunately, this is the world we live in. And if we want results, we’ll have to speak the language of the powerful sometimes. Otherwise you and I just sound like chattering monkeys to them, easily labeled as radicals or naive fools. We have to be clever enough to beat them at their own games.

        And keep in mind that most Americans aren’t bad people. I was raised in small-town Oklahoma to think of Native Americans as sub-humans. It took something as simple as the film Dances with Wolves, and a scene where a Native American couple is caught making out in their sleeping bag, for a little light to flicker on in my head and for me to think, “Wait a minute. They’re just people, too!” As imperfect as it is, the novel Uncle Tom’s Cabin also convinced a lot of white people that black people were human. The question is, how do we make that light go on for as many people as possible?

        A professor friend of mine once said, “Righteous indignation is not a strategy. You can be right all day, but being right, on its own, never won anybody anything.” I try to look at history and see what worked, even if it was infuriating and humbling at the time. We’ll surely be the ones laughing last, but I want to get us there as quickly and as bloodlessly as possible.

        I think (hope) this kind of thing is on the right track. It would do a lot to bolster my faith that most people are good in the end, and it takes a lot of brainwashing to make them act like neocons. Our job is counter-brainwashing, however we can best carry it out. And I think we’ll catch more flies with honey than with screaming indignation that most Americans simply can’t (yet) comprehend.

        http://fasttimesinpalestine.wordpress.com

        • yajujwamajuj says:

          Not positive about this, but methinks that most of those who dressed up are likely Internationals. I’m not sure if that cheapens the effect of this or not.

        • Taxi says:

          Pamela,

          I love the title of your book!

        • Taxi says:

          Pamela,

          I love your website and who you are. Good luck with your book. Try Canadian publishers if ‘politics’ gets in your way here in the USA.

          Palestine is lucky to have such a sweet person telling their story.

        • Citizen says:

          Pamela, thanks for your comment; good luck to you, your blog, and your book.
          Your blogging regarding your travels in the Middle East is well-written, very informative, and it drips with the humanity of the people you introduce the reader to, as well as with your own humanity. Keep it up.

        • Pamela Olson says:

          Many thanks. :) But I consider myself the lucky one. Palestine did more for my faith in humanity than anything else in my life.

        • Taxi says:

          You just gave me goose-bumps Pamee. Because the Palestinian story is such a sad story.

        • Pamela Olson says:

          It is a very sad story. Unbelievably horrific. And yet… it didn’t break the Palestinian people. Some percentage turned to hate (and frankly, it’s hard to blame them), but the vast majority didn’t. The vast majority still want peace. They are still some of the kindest, bravest, most thoughtful and welcoming people on the planet. And in the end, they will win. Sooner rather than later if they continue to play it smart like this. If that’s not good for one’s faith in humanity, I don’t know what is.

          And yet people who don’t even know any Palestinians would come on this forum and demonize them wholesale. That’s what still astonishes me.

          Incidentally, before I learned about the whole Palestine situation, what used to be most inspiring to me was the Jewish story — the fact that the Holocaust didn’t break them, that they went on to be world-class intellectuals and businesspeople and everything else, to a staggering degree. Not only that — they were leaders of movements for human rights and international law.

          Which makes what Israel has become — a dangerous, blindered, anti-intellectual, anti-democratic, anti-rule-of-law, tribal society — that much more heartbreaking. But I think they’ll eventually wake up. I hope. They’ll never have the security they crave otherwise. Ideologies blinded to reality to that degree tend not to last long.

        • Taxi says:

          Me too Pamela. I’m a better person for learning about the Palestinian issue.

          Please let me know when your book becomes available on the market, I’d like to buy a couple of copies – one for me and another to pass on as a gift.

      • MRW says:

        Seham, it is absolutely brilliant! I get emails from a right-wing group of off-the-fucking-wall uber-Zionists in Israel who love Avatar because they think it represents them. Ha! These kids co-opted it.

        As for this: do you blame me for feeling annoyed that Palestinians must don Hollywood costumes before our humanity is recognized?

        Uhhh…yeah. I do. Especially when you’re dealing with possible American press….the serious method hasn’t worked for 60 years now, has it?

      • RoHa says:

        Surely the whole point of Zionism was that you do not have any humanity to recognize. Only Zionist Jews count as human.

        Still, I can’t blame you for feeling annoyed that you get more sympathy when you portray yourselves as non-human aliens.

  6. radii says:

    Palestinians should switch to non-violence only – now is the time – and carry signs that say “Please, America, stop funding israel because they steal our homes and kill us with your money”

  7. radii says:

    Phil, if available please put a photo credit – great faces, iconic image, visceral and moving – deserves a credit

  8. munro says:

    There goes the best picture oscar. The other nominees, esp the Inglorious Basterds producers, must be loving this. It’s been funny watching how critical debates over Avatar are usually proxy arguments about I/P policy.

    • Chaos4700 says:

      I get the feeling that Cameron didn’t make this movie to grab himself an Oscar. From what I’ve read, it was a genuine labor of artistic passion for him. So he’s not going to shed any tears if the Brad Pitt vehicle movie gets the Oscar.

      • marc b. says:

        Ah, C4700, I wouldn’t expect such creduluousness from you. The more plausible explanation that I read behind this ‘labor of artistic passion’ is that ‘Avatar’ is the perfect type of movie for the industry, i.e. one that won’t translate onto the small screen. Hollywood wants asses in seats, not pirated videos of ‘SawIX’. Cameron is a megalomaniac, and now he has more experience than anyone else in Hollywood in creating the perfect product. Say it with me: Billions with a ‘B’, that is what he will be worth.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Sadly, the two traits are not necessarily mutually exclusive. But having watched Avatar, I perceived that Cameron deliberately avoided many tropes and cliches that have become the bread and butter of “successful” Hollywood movies nowadays.

          Don’t get me wrong, it still has its share of tropes and cliches. Avatar’s strength lies not in being a brilliant movie ahead of its time, but in that is one of the few decently written movies to grace the silver screen in a long time. In short, it only looks exceptional because the norm is crap.

  9. munro says:

    I’m sure Cameron’s not worried about it either way… it’s just the game right now. Nikki Fink has some interesting stuff about anti-Semite accusations launched by competing films:
    Jewish Journal Stirs More Controversy Around ‘An Education’ And ‘A Serious Man’
    link to deadline.com

  10. Pingback: Generation Avatar? « حزب اللغة

  11. samjnickels says:

    This is fantastic. And just like the movie, I am sure these folks were tear gassed.

  12. munro says:

    Avatar protestors succumb to tear gas , slideshow:
    link to telegraph.co.uk

  13. Seham says:

    Haitham’s weekly Bilin vid, Avatar style:

  14. Chu says:

    They should dress up as Disney character’s next.
    Can you imagine the IDF tear-gassing
    Donald Duck and Minnie Mouse?
    Americans would be outraged.

  15. Memphis says:

    The parrallels between this movie and the real life I/P conflict is astounding. That is the reason why i wanted to see it in the first place. I think it is wonderful that they dressed like the Navi. I hope people/the world/the U.S can soon see that the Palestinians are the Navi and fight for their cause

  16. Elliot says:

    Well said, Pamela.
    People are so used to watching TV, movies, or, for that matter, unresponsive pols, that when the relationship becomes interactive it really shakes things up.
    Who knew the Palestinians know what we care about – they are supposed to look different and distant.

  17. Pamela Olson says:

    Have you seen the write-up and video on CNN? Better than any I’ve seen anywhere in the mainstream:

    link to cnn.com

  18. VR says:

    All theater is good in activity like this, because it disarms the viewer while at the same time delivering a powerful point – it gets beneath the psychological armor. There was plenty of this in the Yippie movement in the USA, it captured the imagination and the camera lens.

    GUERILLA THEATER

    • Avi says:

      …because it disarms the viewer while at the same time delivering a powerful point – it gets beneath the psychological armor.

      That’s something that Jglatzer mentioned in his first article on this website when he wrote about his time in Gaza.

      It’s something that I have yet to master, to be honest. My tactic is to bludgeon people with facts and analogies, but that just doesn’t have the “disarming” effect.

  19. VR says:

    Lets try this again, seems to be in denial…

    GUERILLA THEATER

  20. munro says:

    marc b.: Asses in the seats could have been achieved with far less artistry (produced with ultra-complex technology) like Twilight for instance. The making of Avatar required years of CGI rendering using over 4,000 compute blades. The final edited version of Avatar is over 2.8 TB of content. The multiple raw scenes are in the 100’s of Terabytes. Cameron, Weta Digital NZ, Lucasfilm and other teams went far beyond the base Hwd calculations you mention. You should see it, in HD 3D, before you dismiss it.

    • Mooser says:

      The time people spend seeing movies would be put to better use practising a musical instrument.
      And now that TV screens have become large enough to show people almost life size, and in better focus, even more mass insanity will be the result.
      There is only one way to escape the influence of entertainment contexting (life as cheap melodrama): Not to watch. I suggest clouds, which make wonderful and interesting shapes, and if it’s a clear day, paint goes through all kinds of changes before it dries.
      Anyway, I’m your best example: I gave up TV after a disappointing incident when I was about 12 years old (I tried to knock-out a fellow student with a punch to the jaw, like I saw ten or more times a day on TV. The punch was ineffective, there was no satisfying sound of fist on flesh, and I split my pants from the swing, engendering much mirth in the little monsters which called themselves my classmates.) TV and movies, feh. I quit ‘em, right then. At least it saved me from the disappointment of finding out women weren’t like they were portrayed in my Dad’s po…. Well, I think I’ve made my point, no point getting into that.

  21. dan says:

    There were a lot of things I disliked about Avatar but I think this is brilliant. I admit that I immediately thought of Gaza at one scene in the movie, and I think it is very appropriate for Palestinian youth to be adopting the imagery of global media and popular culture as means of bringing attention to their struggle and the injustices perpetrated against them in a way that is very recognizable and symbolic.

    • tommy says:

      The best part of the movie was Cameron’s story telling ability to motivate Americans to root for the death of their own invading former Marines.

      • Taxi says:

        I saw these guys as Black Water/Xe mercenaries contracted by a corporation, not Marines. Though perhaps the line between them was a little blurred in the movie.

        • dan says:

          yeah that was my impression also regarding the invaders. my issue with the film was that it was posing as this statement about colonialism, indigenous rights, the environment, militarism, corporatism etc etc but really its just another insanely expensive, technology media spectacle (about something totally fictional) that in fact displays an immense amount of super stylized graphic violence and is basically just a money making machine for corporate Hollywood. And it seemed just like something that the de-sensitized American public can process and use to feel good about themselves, rooting for the poor oppressed aliens. When in fact all these things are actually happening in the real world often times due to the direct support of US taxpayers (Iraq, Gaza, Afghanistan, our government’s refusal to do something about climate change) or a part of our own cultural history (Native Americans, US Imperialism at the turn of the century and the Cold War, etc etc). Maybe Avatar expressed these issues in a way that is more accessible to the average person and actually made people think about these things in reality and want to do something about them, but… I’m honestly not so sure.

        • Citizen says:

          Maybe the movie is like a supine good v bad video game? I doubt whether 1% of its total audience will be penetrated in their psyche, let alone inspired to look at the real world & the actions of their own government, by this movie.

  22. Bravo says:

    They should also dress up as Ewoks and the Bugs from Avatar.

    It’s sad to say, but this is really the only sort of stuff that can resonate with Americans. The vast majority simply cannot garner any sympathy for Palestinians.

  23. radii says:

    If they dressed as Disney characters they would bring the corporate lawyers after them and that could be as scary as the IDF, or as crippling … dressing as corporate logos – that is creative but over the heads of most casual news viewers – the Navi thing is time-sensitive and relevant and done once has essentially made the point, now Step#2 needs to be equally clever but not repeat the Navi thing unless it’s done on a massive scale (good luck getting enough blue make-up past the israeli blockade).

    The whole point of the Navi themed protest is to show the power of an idea trumps all weapons and oppression – brilliantly done – message delivered and message received by many

    Brand israel is crumbling and all the spin and marketing in the universe can’t put it back together again

  24. Bravo says:

    ooops i meant the bugs from District 9.

    but yes, this was a fantastic idea overall. they should keep doing stuff like this, eventually people will pay attention.

    • potsherd says:

      It’s been getting a lot more attention than Palestinian protests usually get. It’s even broken through the censorship barrier into some MSM outlets.

  25. Colin Murray says:

    Anyone want to bet against the IDF seizing these costumes along with blue fabric and dye as ‘proscribed materials used for illegal incitement’ during their nightly raids on the homes of peaceful protesters?

  26. Pingback: Arab News Blog » Palestinians dressed as ‘Na’vi’ from ‘Avatar

  27. yonira says:

    Who would Boycott Israeli artists? Not James Cameron:

    link to jpost.com

    • Colin Murray says:

      But he added, “I believe that film is a way of lowering cultural boundaries and understanding an issue from an opposing perspective. Film allows us to see the world through the lens of another person’s reality, and as such is our most powerful tool for bringing people together and for avoiding conflict.”

      This is certainly true, as well being a succinct and elegant expression of his sentiment.

      “And to ask other artists to exert political pressure on a government, no matter what one’s opinion of that government or its policies, by punishing artists, is obscene on its face.”

      However, occupation, ethnic cleansing, and colonization, implemented with murder, torture, and armed robbery facilitated by a sham legal system that formally codifies racial and religious discrimination, are far more obscene.

      Any Israeli artist who allows their work to be used by the state for propaganda, e.g. presenting an illusion that Israel is ‘just another Western democracy’ while abomination continues in the occupied territories, ceases to be a legitimate artist. I think we ought not boycott independent artists, but propagandists are completely fair game. I’m sure their mothers told them that life isn’t fair. It’s a hell of a lot less fair for Palestinian victims and the tens of thousands of Americans killed or wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq.

      • Avi says:

        He makes it sound as though that “political pressure” is used by one party to pressure another over something like vehicle emissions standards.

        I could agree with him if he said “In a normal functioning democracy, where every person is treated equally, putting pressure on artists to achieve a political goal is obscene”.

        But instead we get “no matter what one’s opinion of that government or its policies”.

        You’re right, Cameron. Who gives a hoot if Palestinian artists have their homes demolished for speaking out against a military occupation? After all, only Israeli artists count, and they should not be “punished” for supporting an apartheid state and receiving funding from said state.

  28. Pingback: Oppressed Groups Relate to Avatar — Hrag Vartanian

  29. Saleema says:

    I’m probably the only person who hasn’t seen Avatar because I hate to pay $15 bucks for a movie (on some stuff, i’m really cheap) and rather see it a couples of months later at the dollar theater.

    but I have to see it now!

  30. stranger says:

    Im confused. last week, saying the Bil’in protests were theatrical was wrong and bad. This week, its Disney on Parade, and its awesome? These villagers are being economically destroyed by the wall, so how come in a world where 20% get less than 1$ a day, this lot have seen the latest movies, and can afford new costumes for a single performance (sorry, protest)?
    Of course, you are right, the weekly “demonstration” is essentially a theme park for American students who wish they were alive in the 60s. Its a theme park, thats why they can afford new costumes. And any theme park needs a big, scary ride as its central attraction, or the folks will go elsewhere. Paying all that money to travel all that way to Bil’in, and just walking around saying “kill the Jews” isnt that exciting. Thats why the local youth’s job is to provoke the Israeli soldiers to the point where they fire tear gass – even to the extent of breaking down sections of wall, burning Israeli cars on the other side, injuring over 100 soldiers etc. Then the high paying tourists can get a whiff of tear gas, and casually mention about how “last week when I was at Bil’in, smelling the gas …” to his friends at Berkley. His money was well spent. But, no gas, no status.

    • Pamela Olson says:

      Dude, every conflict has its tourists, but the bulk of these protests is Palestinians trying non-violently to draw attention to hideous injustices against them that the world is otherwise ignoring. I’ve been to one of these demos, as a journalist not a participant, and even I was hit and injured by a stun grenade. Several people have been killed or permanently injured. It ain’t Disneyland.

      As for their “costumes,” um, blue surgical gloves, a little face paint, and some second-hand long-sleeved t-shirts to dye might cost about $20. The Palestinians are economically ravaged by Israel’s policies, but they can scrape together two tens. As for seeing the latest movies, well, you can get a pirated version of just about any movie you want in the West Bank for about a dollar. :)

      If you want to argue, fine, but try actual arguments, not a bunch of weird, petty non-sequiturs.

  31. stranger says:

    Sorry, its hard to take kids with wigs seriously! Actual arguments? Well, even Robert Fisk has recently stated that the Wall has saved Israeli lives. Elsewhere, I read that; “In the year prior to the decision to build the security barrier, 452 Israelis were murdered by Palestinian terrorists, mostly in suicide bombings. Since the building of the barrier, that figure has gone down by more than 90 percent.” A number of the shooting deaths were carried out from Bil’in, on the road the wall now protects. I always assume Palestinians can make moral judgments. They could, for example, say; “we know terrorists killed Israelis from our land. We are ashamed and disgusted by this, and want to help build the wall so no more lives are lost.” Its an option.
    Or, they could say, “we dont care one bit about Israeli lives, this wall, even with its gates, makes reaching our fields take longer.” It is the argument that Palestinian inconvenience is a greater priority than Israeli lives. Given that it was Palestinian lethal violence that caused the wall to be built in the first place, I find this a very difficult argument to sustain from a moral base. Maybe they are better sticking with little blue people.

    • Chaos4700 says:

      How come all Zionists are assholes? Like, every last one of you? And disgusting people to boot. Doesn’t matter to you that Israelis have killed hundreds of Palestinians for every Israeli death, does it? But then, the Warsaw Ghetto was instrumental to the “security” of German lives once upon a time, wasn’t it?

      Enjoy what you’ve become. We’re all looking forward to the next incarnation of Nuremburg trials.

    • potsherd says:

      It’s simple. Why don’t the Israelis say, “If we want to save Israeli lives by building a wall, we’ll build it on Israeli land.”

      The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that the wall is more about grabbing Palestinian land than “security.” It’s not a matter of an “inconvenience” to the Palestinians. It’s a matter of land-hungry Zionists backed by Lev Leviev, coveting their neighbors’ fields.

    • tommy says:

      The Israelis who live on the outside of the 1947 UN mandate are human shields for Israeli aggression. They employ the same tactics as the mercenaries in ‘Avater,’ killing everyone in the way of their territorial avarice.

    • Chu says:

      Hey Stranger, you sound like another sad victim of indoctrination, so I will sympathize with you and your Jewish victimhood, but you should recall that 80% of historic Palestine was taken by Judeo-nazis coming from Germany.

      Palestinians do not have to grovel at the feet of Jews and say were ashamed, because Israel should be ashamed as a nation of the Nakba. Colonialism was a European idea, and Jews were slow to catch on and now it’s outdated at best. If only Madagascar was the chosen site of Israel, you wouldn’t have to make such poor excuses for greed and colonial aggression.

  32. Citizen says:

    NO worry. Despite Orwell, and his works in schools around the world, and the relevance to USSR & Fascist actuality during the last Century, nothing changes. Remember the Shrub Era neocon conviction: you can write about us as you please, and while you do, we will go on making the next reality off the top of our heads, and you can then write about that too.

  33. stranger says:

    Wow,
    lets see, Chaos, I was asked for an actual argument, so I went with “which is more important, Israeli lives or Palestinian convenience.” You responded with personal abuse, so I guess you would be happier playing with the little blue people. The wall itself was part of the Israeli response which defeated the second intifada, during which about 1,000 Israelis and 5,500 Palestinians died in this low level war. So your factor of “hundreds” also belongs on Avitar. In a war, proportionality is a non issue. Should the Americans feel guilty that more Germans died on D Day than Americans? Should their generals have appologised, and promised to try and kill more Americans next time? What matters is the deliberate targeting of civilians, such as suicide bombings and drive by shootings in the second intifada, as contrasted to the blowing up of empty buildings, targeted assasinations and yes, the construction of a non-lethal wall.

    So, Potsherd, why not build the wall on Israeli land? 3 quick thoughts, firstly, the wall needs to go along ridges to be effective. If the green line is in a gully, the wall would be useless. Secondly, if the Arab states and PLO had recognised the green line pre 67, and not crossed it in war, none of this would be happening, if they dont recognise it, why should Israel? And 3, I happen to think its a moral positive for the wall to be in the west bank (gasps from readers). Otherwise, I get to shoot civilians from my territory, and send suicide bombers from my territory, and you respond by trashing your territory to build a wall. Its a win/win with no down side for me to attack civilians. They die, and they pay the price. It was the Palestinians who started and continued the second intifada, who deliberately targeted civilians in it, thus making the wall a nessesity, so they should pay the price for it. They can pay for their war crimes by loosing a small bit of their territory to stop further war crimes. Seems fair to me.

    Tommy, seriously, stay away from the cinema, return to earth! “killing everyone …”?? How come 20% of Israel’s population is Arab? What % of Jordan was Jewish after 48? (hint, the same % as there are Jews in Saudi Arabia).

    Chu, “Judo Nazis coming from Germany”. That is the winner. Think about what you are writing! Are you saying that when Jews were trying to flee Nazi Germany in the 30s, you would have supported the Palestinians in their demands to recieve no refugees, their demand to be ethnically pure Arab? When America First types rioted in NY during this time to keep out refugees, everyone rightly called them disgusting bigots. When Palestinians do the same, its noble? The refugees are the bad guys? Then tear down the statue of liberty and those cute words underneath. Jews were fleeing genocide, and you think the Palestinians did right to close their borders to them?? Equally, after the war, the Palestinians had the option of apologising, of saying “we closed our doors when you were dying, please forgive us, and come, bring your survivors here to live with us.” They didnt, but, rejecting every peace offer went to war. And you support this??
    PS, you had better tell the Chinese about colonialism being a European idea, and remind them of Tibet.

    • Donald says:

      “he wall itself was part of the Israeli response which defeated the second intifada, during which about 1,000 Israelis and 5,500 Palestinians died in this low level war. So your factor of “hundreds” also belongs on Avitar”

      He was probably thinking of the recent Gaza slaughter.

      “In a war, proportionality is a non issue. Should the Americans feel guilty that more Germans died on D Day than Americans”

      False. Proportionality is an issue according to the laws of war. And you aren’t making a distinction between civilians and people actually shooting, so your D-Day analogy is stupid.

      “What matters is the deliberate targeting of civilians, such as suicide bombings and drive by shootings in the second intifada, as contrasted to the blowing up of empty buildings, targeted assasinations and yes, the construction of a non-lethal wall.”

      Using indiscriminate firepower in urban settings is a form of civilian targeting with plausible deniability–plausible, that is, if you’re an ideologue. Also, there are cases where it’s obvious that the IDF was targeting civilians. And they kill many more of them, despite the precision weaponry at their disposal.

      “So, Potsherd, why not build the wall on Israeli land? 3 quick thoughts, firstly, the wall needs to go along ridges to be effective. ”

      So it can’t be built on an Israeli ridge? Given all the stolen land, they can’t sacrifice any of their own? Anyway, despite that quote from Fisk, it’s clear that if Palestinians wanted to send in some more terrorists, they could. The wall isn’t complete. link

      “How come 20% of Israel’s population is Arab? What % of Jordan was Jewish after 48? (hint, the same % as there are Jews in Saudi Arabia).”

      It was a decision not to clear out every last Arab, just enough so that there was an overwhelming majority. As for Jordan, there’s no reason why anyone should give Arab nations a pass when it comes to accusations of war crimes.

      “When Palestinians do the same, its noble? The refugees are the bad guys?”

      In the case of Zionism, there was a movement that was out in the open declaring its intent to create a Jewish state–they’d even persuaded the imperial power of the time to make a declaration promising this. There’s no group of people on earth that wouldn’t have objected to that. The rest of the world is to blame for not accepting more Jewish refugees.

      “Equally, after the war, the Palestinians had the option of apologising, of saying “we closed our doors when you were dying, please forgive us, and come, bring your survivors here to live with us.” They didnt, but, rejecting every peace offer went to war. ”

      Both sides were engaged in terrorist acts against the other by the 30′s. The Zionists clearly intended to take over. The partition plan was grossly unfair to the Palestinians. They had every moral right to reject it.

      As for colonialism, it’s as old as humanity. One tribe steals the land of another, and concocts some reason why it had the right to do so. Benny Morris says it’s because his group is superior. People were probably saying that kind of thing back in the Neolithic period.

    • RoHa says:

      Jews were pouring into Palestine long before the Nazis started their genocide. The Palestinians knew that the aim of the Jews was to take over the country. But Palestine was controlled by the British, so the Palestinians could not close the borders.

      Zionists worked hard at trying to get the USA, Britain, and other countries to close their borders to Jews.

      The Palestinians knew that the Jews had no intention of living with them. The Jews intended to take over, and either expel or subjugate the Palestinians. That’s what “Jewish State” means.

      What peace offers?

    • RoHa says:

      Dammit, all the quotes got cut out. Here it is again.

      “Jews were fleeing genocide, and you think the Palestinians did right to close their borders to them?”
      Jews were pouring into Palestine long before the Nazis started their genocide. The Palestinians knew that the aim of the Jews was to take over the country. But Palestine was controlled by the British, so the Palestinians could not close the borders.

      Zionists worked hard at trying to get the USA, Britain, and other countries to close their borders to Jews.

      ” come, bring your survivors here to live with us.”
      The Palestinians knew that the Jews had no intention of living with them. The Jews intended to take over, and either expel or subjugate the Palestinians. That’s what “Jewish State” means.

      “rejecting every peace offer”
      What peace offers?

  34. munro says:

    Talking Points Memo
    Palestinian protesters pose as Na’vi from “Avatar”
    But no photo and links to AP home page
    link to talkingpointsmemo.com

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