Alan Dershowitz himself was not present, but his inconsistent approach to the legal framework of the conflict hovered over the proceedings. Dershowitz insists that Israel is almost completely blameless under existing international law, but just to be safe, he has proposed modifications, such as a "continuum of civilianity" that makes certain civilians more killable than others, and "worst first," that provides immunity from international law for all but the single worst human rights offender; everyone else gets a pass until the worst is in the dock. Similar themes were repeated throughout the day. Israel has every right to defend itself, even including actions that surely will result in civilian deaths, and by the way, how dare anyone suggest that Israel intentionally kills civilians.
Interestingly, the most well-received speaker was former UN ambassador John Bolton, who adamantly insisted that the US, and Israel are entitled to disregard international law completely and act according to their own whims. He drew the biggest ovations of the day with remarks like "I believe in disproportionate force," and "If other countries want to subordinate themselves to international law, be my guest." He disparaged the authority of any international code or organization, saying that the US (and Israel, by implication) need not say, "Mother, may I," when exercising "full spectrum dominance," by which he clearly meant launching overwhelming military force against any country or target chosen by the country’s leadership. No doubt Bolton’s absolute contempt for international law and UN authority made him Bush’s perfect choice for UN Ambassador.
Dore Gold was another popular speaker. Fresh from his pathetic performance in a debate against Goldstone at Brandeis, Gold sought to score post-game points. He chose this occasion to reveal that new information had come to light about Israel’s mosque attack that killed 15 worshipers, an incident that Goldstone has repeatedly singled out as particularly reprehensible. According to Gold, the Israeli bombers did not know that the structure was a mosque because it had no minaret. Moreover, they accurately targeted a group of young militants meeting outside the mosque, killing 15 who deserved to die, and the force of the blast carried inside where it might have injured some innocents. (And imagine – there are some who still claim that Israel is unable to properly investigate its own actions.) Gold also bemoaned this week’s EU vote in favor of the Goldstone report: He speculated that Hezbollah would be studying the report for tips on how to fire rockets at Israel from densely populated areas in Lebanon in an effort to goad the Israelis to return fire and kill civilians. Apparently, Gold forgot that Israel already used this pathetic excuse throughout the 2006 Lebanon "war."
There was frequent use of the buzz words of today’s discourse – delegitimizing and demonization. Irwin Cotler, one of numerous Canadian presenters, expressed outrage at the accusation of apartheid, meant to delegitimize Israel. He noted that apartheid is considered a "crime against humanity," apparently thinking that the gravity of the accusation was a sufficient defense thereto. He offered no counter-analysis as to why the system of separate roads, facilities, justice systems and grossly unequal allocation of resources in the Occupied Territories was not actual apartheid, similar or worse than its manifestation in South Africa. Nor did he acknowledge the existence of state-sanctioned discrimination against Israel’s minority non-Jewish citizens in virtually every public sphere. I guess he feels it is "legitimizable" bigotry. Other speakers were similarly offended at the comparison, but no one explained why it is inappropriate.
David Scharia, an Israeli attorney specializing in counter-terrorism, noted how much more difficult it became for Shin Bet to acquire information when Israel’s High Court finally banned routine torture for detainees in 1999. Hamas adapted to the ruling by training its operatives to cry "torture," which of course was impossible because the practice had been banned. ( I suppose previously, Hamas complaints of torture fell on deaf ears because the practice was legal.) While not condemning the ruling outright, Scharia noted that the process of "counter-terrorism" had been rendered lengthier and more complex by the unavailability of physical means to extract information. It’s a tough world, especially when your hands are tied.
Law Professor Ruth Wedgwood allowed that "you can never deliberately attack a civilian or civilian object," but then failed to recognize that that most reasonable maxim should be applied to Israel as well as Hamas.
For comic relief, there was a rather bizarre address by Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. Ignoring the fact that the conference was falling well behind schedule when he spoke, he quoted at considerable length from Shakespeare’s King John, eventually stumbling to the punchline "Fight fire with fire." Anyone’s guess is as good as mine as to Shurtleff’s unlikely appearance at this conference.
At one point, Dore Gold, referring to Goldstone, said, "This report is not going away." For me, it was the most truthful, and encouraging, moment in the entire day. The Shakespeare lesson was a distant second.
“For comic relief, there was a rather bizarre address by Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. Ignoring the fact that the conference was falling well behind schedule when he spoke, he quoted at considerable length from Shakespeare’s King John, eventually stumbling to the punchline “Fight fire with fire.” Anyone’s guess is as good as mine as to Shurtleff’s unlikely appearance at this conference.”
Gentiles are a necessary part of any neocon conference.
(Could someone explain to me how to italicize the above first graf?)
Scott, please italicise quotes by using the tags in the yellow-shaded box located contiguously (if that’s the word I want) with the comments box. For longer quotes, use the block-quote feature, which differentiates quoted material with shading and narrow margins, too.
To italicise (I’m using the “[" and "]” signs instead of the “” signs, so the computer doesn’t react) the formula is [i] italicised type [/i] italics off.
Same formula for bold, blockquote , and the rest.
Gosh, BTW, what’s the Mormon position on Zionism? No doubt they have forced it into their grab-bag of theo-illogical bullshit somehow.
Let’s experiment. [i] italicized type [/i]
I’ve contemplated that yellow shaded box many times, but it might as well be written in Greek.
I’ll try again. italicized type
Trying the lesson plan (failed last time…)
italica
You da man, Mooser – I see now where I’ve erred before. Next are the hyperlinks…
The easiest thing to do with the hyperlinks is subscribe to a thread and save an email with an embedded link – which should show the tags. Then cut and paste at will, substituting your link and description in the appropriate places.
I’ll try that next time – thanks. Only problem is – clogged e-mail box(es) make for lost mail….
Thanks, David. Great definition of Dershowitz’ surreal “continuum of civilianity” (that makes certain civilians more killable than others), although A.D. could have spared himself the trouble and just used Orwell’s timeless “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”.
Oh Jeez, Shmuel, you always do nail the main point. Thanks for sharing with us. You are a blessing for humanity.
Thanks, Citizen. This is a great blog.
Yes, that is some insight that everyone mentions about Dershowitz, I might as well repeat what I said under Max’s post about lawfare (but it does not shine as brightly) –
Inevitably Israel will have to make the whole world its “enemy,” because its atrocities are so transparent, and to defend them is so repugnant. The US has decided to stand in the corner with Israel (officially), it blends nicely with our concept that we “answer to no one,” and inevitably leads to the delusion that “we own the world.” Which is just another way of saying that might makes right, and that we are lawless even though we call together a meeting named “Lawfare,” it is merely a a meeting of rogue elements proclaiming that they are law unto themselves. I am reminded of the interview that Norman Finkelstein had with Alan Dershowitz on Democracy Now about his book “The Case For Israel” (which has large portions plagiarizing Peters From Time Immemorial), these elements have merely become a fallacious collective Dershowitz.
Or a little further back than this –
Israel’s actual invention is new standard on ‘asymmetrical’ conflict by Shmuel Sermoneta-Gertel on February 23, 2010 · 24 comments
Yes, and Israel sees itself as the star to propagate this “new” concept of doing war. Did you notice that I put the parenthesis around new? That is because there has always been a plea for a special dispensation in order to accomplish the destruction of a people. The plea has always been “how different” these particular people act, how savage and unpredictable, not according to the “normal” conventions of war. It is indeed new only in one sense, that the targets are indeed as described “removing the fundamental rights of the world’s poor and downtrodden to resist.”
There was another time when this was asked for, and it was Norman Finkelstein who brought this to light, in one of his exchanges with Dershowitz, who was calling for the need for this “specialized” way of fighting. It was indeed called for before, and it was the precursor of horrible acts –
“The central premise of Dershowitz is that “international law, and those who administer it, must understand that the old rules” do not apply in the unprecedented war against a ruthless and fanatical foe, and that “the laws of war and the rules of morality must adapt to these [new] realities.”[4] This is not the first time such a rationale has been invoked to dispense with international law. According to Nazi ideology, ethical conventions couldn’t be applied in the case of “Jews or Bolsheviks; their method of political warfare is entirely amoral.”[5] On the eve of the “preventive war”[6] against the Soviet Union, Hitler issued the Commissar Order, which mandated the summary execution of Soviet political commissars and Jews, and set the stage for the Final Solution. He justified the order targeting them for assassination on the ground that the Judeo-Bolsheviks represented a fanatical ideology, and that in these “exceptional conditions”[7] civilized methods of warfare had to be cast aside:
In the fight against Bolshevism it must not be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of humanity or international law…any attitude of consideration or regard for international law in respect of these persons is an error….The protagonists of barbaric Asiatic methods of warfare are the political commissars….Accordingly if captured in battle or while resisting, they should in principle be shot.[8]
It was simultaneously alleged that the Red Army commissars (who were assimilated to Jews) qualified neither as prisoners of war protected by the Geneva Convention nor civilians entitled to trial before military courts, but rather were in effect illegal combatants.[9] Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.”
4. Alan M. Dershowitz, “Arbour Must Go,” in National Post (21 July 2006); Alan M. Dershowitz, “Arithmetic of Pain,” in Wall Street Journal (19 July 2006).
5. Helmut Krausnick et al., Anatomy of the SS State (New York: 1965), p. 336 (quoting Himmler).
6. Horst Boog et al., Germany and the Second World War, vol. iv, The Attack on the Soviet Union (Oxford: 1998), pp. 38, 39, 517.
7. Krausnick, Anatomy, p. 356.
8. Ibid., pp. 318-19; Boog, Attack, pp. 499-500, 510, 515.
9. Boog, Attack, pp. 497-8, 508.
Read the entire article here, it is well worth the read –
SHOULD ALAN DERSHOWITZ TARGET HIMSELF FOR ASSASSINATION?
However I am glad that some have come to the same conclusions
Thanks, Shmuel. The killable line is my own, but if you want to see a brilliantly funny analysis of the continuum, check this out. link to doodleplex.com
Sorry I’m so technologically impaired, I don’t know how to hyperlink.
Depressingly funny.
—————————
Hyper link is (again, using brackets instead of “less than” and “more than” signs (I bet they have a real name, too):
[a href=" paste web address here"] linked type here [/a]
And remember, this commenting software turns a complete web adress into a link which can be used either way, by clicking or pastinf into the address box.
All the directions are contiguous (you gotta like that word, if it’s the right one) with the comments box, at the bottom.
Thanks for the tech lesson. I’ll try it when I muster up the courage. Your use of the word contiguous is not only right but appropriate on this blog, as it usually is followed in current discourse with “Palestinian State,” i.e., without separate cantons or bantustans. Or, as Shurtleff would quote from Henry IV, Part 2, “Contiguity is the soul of brevity.”
And brevity is the soul of wit. That doesn’t leave me in a good position.
Practice, Mooser, practice. :)
What I read on the Google News summary this morning:
“The White House is raising the stakes in talks with Israel, calling it an “insult” and an “affront” that the Jewish nation would continue plans to build 1600 new apartments for Jews in east Jerusalem, which Palestinians are seeking as their future …”
Gosh, why would anybody except an anti-semite object to the Jewish nation building more homes for Jews? And damn those Pal;estinians “seeking” as their future land which belongs to the Jewish nation.
Those poor Jews! Those terrible Arabs! No need to read any further…
Mooser, I think you’d be a great replacement for Jerry Springer. You might actually
uplift the masses, instead of taking advantage of their ignorance, and exploiting it for your financial gain. Springer attaches platitudes at the end of his hillbilly and ghetto circus–notice he even added a stripper pole before his daily sermon? You might even say, no, we don’t need to see your bare tops, and we won’t give a strings of New Orleans beads for your willing exposure.
“Mooser, I think you’d be a great replacement for Jerry Springer”
The only episode on the Springer show I want to see is the one where all the guests, (who just happen to be championship cage fighters of both sexes), turn on that bastard “Steve” and beat the little supercilious smile right off his mug.
I don’t care who Springer has on, or what they do, or how many teeth they have left, every one of them is a thousand times better than that goon, Steve.
I used watch just hoping somebody would get a lucky shot in at his liver or burst his appendix, but I gave up.
And according to Google, I spelled appendix right, first try!
Yeah, Mooser, Steve is arrogant, although not half so arrogant and money-making as Jerry. What exactly do you despise about Steve’s extolled principles of human conduct? And how do they differ from Jerry’s end-of-show sermons?
You guys should have heard Springer when he was a host on Air America, actually. Totally different than from on the TV show when he’s off a grandstanding producer’s leash.
Mooser’s been reading the talkbacks in the Israeli news again.
A tad of information about Utah’s Mark Shurtleff (0ther than HBO’s BIG LOVE):
link to attorneygeneral.utah.gov
Bolton? Has there ever been any American less American and getting away with it?
Hey, Citizen, better watch your back; remember, the Mormons are one of the few American denominations which have killed, massacred in fact, on orders from their religious leaders, acts they have never disavowed. Acts they still use as inspirational material for their young, and a standard they still swear their members to.
And that’s way, way before you even get to their actions concerning women.
They are a dangerous cult, and some kind of alliance between them and the Israelis is very probable.
I have never in my life seen a “religion” which made gullibility so transparent a denominator for conversion. And I’m not just “talking through my hat”.
Peepstoning, anyone? I know where all the treasure was buried by the Laminites (the ancient inventors of Formica!)
Sorry for going OT. But the Morons are really too much!
Hey, Mooser–got BIG LOVE on HBO? Here’s the scoop–don’t forget to
read the Morman comments to the article:
link to latterdaycommentary.blogspot.com
Ziocain is a very industrious and prolific drug. See the latest DSM shrink manual.
Poor David Scharia! And yet, the accusations of torture persist:
link to stoptorture.org.il
The Public Committee against Torture in Israel (PCATI) recount 600 cases of torture reported since 2001, not a single one investigated.
Hey hey, Chaney loves you all. When will he just have a fatal heart attack? I hope soon.
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March 2003.
John Bolton was the Undersecretary of State who oversaw Foreign Miliary Sales compliance: link to state.gov
. Positioned under him was Linc Bloomfield who was in charge of Military Sales: link to akingump.com
Shortly after Rachel Corrie’s death the U.S. State Dept. provided the Israeli government/IDF with seven questions that they needed to address regarding that death. The answers to these questions were then utilized to inform the U.S. decision as to whether Rachel’s death became a “Leahy” matter. A committee at the Embassy level is to report on those deaths that may be human rights violations and which utilize U.S. weapons. This committee is to report to main state on those deaths that possibly fall under the Leahy Amendment to the Arms Export Act . At one point, Bloomfield had a long conversation with Ambassador Kurtzer, then U.S. Ambassador to Israel ,regarding Rachel. This we know through FOIA . Rachel was considered as a Leahy violation but did not meet the the final cut so to speak, it appears in large part due toU.S. satisfaction with the Israel answers to the U.S. supplied questions. Israel stated that there were no home demolitions going on that day, that the soldier did not see her and that Israel was working on solutions so that this would never happen again. From the sources we have seen, it is not clear that the committee used sources other than Israel in spite of Dept. of State 2003 directives that stated that a variety of sources should be utilized.
It does not appear that Tom Hurndall or Shaden Abu Hijleh were considered as Leahy violations. Remember that this amendment does not specify that the person has to be American, only the weapon. We did learn that Israel had never had a Leahy violation.
link to state.gov
/ :
Senator Lugar followed by Senator Biden chaired the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee that has oversight of the State Department. It is a subcommittee of the Appropriations Committee that oversees Leahy violations, I believe.
John Bolton and Rachel Corrie and Bulldozers
Great. Biden just took Israel’s word for what happened, even though he was supposed to get other opinions. So, What’s new? I am sure Manson should be taken at his word too. Too bad Biden’s son didn’t serve in a real US grunt force in Iraq, rather than the JAG Corps. But, hey, not to worry, isn’t Biden’s home state the home of usurious
credit cards? Watch as that practice remains the same, by hook or crook, even as Obama’s consumer
credit laws pretend it will change.
Interestingly, the most well-received speaker was former UN ambassador John Bolton, who adamantly insisted that the US, and Israel are entitled to disregard international law completely and act according to their own whims. He drew the biggest ovations of the day with remarks like “I believe in disproportionate force,” and “If other countries want to subordinate themselves to international law, be my guest.”
So why do people like him oppose terrorism? It seems that the Ayman Al-Thawahiri (a.k.a. Ayman Al-Zawahiri) has so much in common with John Bolton. One would think they would be great friends and colleagues.
Bolton doesn’t oppose terrorism, he only wants to restrict its use to his friends.
Interesting. Would Bolton find the Nuremberg trials an early example of international force that we should not be subordinate to? Exactly why does
Bolton get to be a valued MSM pundit? How many Americans even know this guy’s background? At most, maybe a quarter of one percent?
Sorry to duplicate my comment, but the SEATTLE TIMES is questioning U.S. military aid to Israel here: link to seattletimes.nwsource.com
“Israel continues to settle occupied territory in violation of international law, and it keeps cashing those U.S. checks for billions of dollars in military aid. What would happen if a payment, oh, got lost in the mail?”
Amazing to this Seattle resident.
One drop at a time erodes the stone.
The Zionists are not known for the freedom of speech when it comes to their adversaries, Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus.
Ben Gurion University professor Dr. Neve Gordon (b. 1965) have recently found out how much academic freedom Zionist Jews inside and outside Israel can digest. Dr. Gordon’s ‘political incorrect’ opinion, published in the L.A. Times on August 20, titled Boycott Israel – turned him from a ”good Jewish intellectual” into a “Self-Hating, Israel-Threatening Jew(S.H.I.T.)”.
“It’s indeed not a simple matter for me as an Israeli citizen to call on foreign governments, regional authorities, international social movements, faith-based organizations, unions and citizens to suspend co-operation with Israel. But today, as I watch my two boys playing in the yard, I am convinced that it is the only way that Israel can be saved from itself,” he wrote.
Freedom of Speech: ‘One-Way Z-Street’
link to rehmat1.wordpress.com
Ah yes, we count on the propagandized young Americans who carry the guns (rather than flipping hamburgers or serving fries) to uphold Israel First. Soup, next!
Hey, David Samel, great report. Thanks!
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Excellent stuff. By the way, I am still waiting for Philip to explain what “Israeli Press Review” he found the story about the egg donor law at.
Here’s an article about the egg donor law–one provision in it says if the egg donor
is not Jewish, the baby born will have to convert later to be considered Jewish:
link to vosizneias.com
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yup; that’s just a copy of a Haaretz (english edition) article:
link to haaretz.com
What I wanted to know was what ‘Israeli Press Review’ was being referred to here:
link to mondoweiss.net
“I am told the following piece appeared in Yedioth Ahronoth, written by Yaron London, (and translated and circulated by the Israeli Press Review).”
Israeli press review services being few and far between. The only one actually called that which I can find is one run by the European Jewish Congress. I know this is off-topic, but no one replied when I asked this question on that thread.
It looks like at least one traditional Christian group is catching flack from the usual hasbara suspects for basically pointing out that Palestinians are people too and maybe BDS is not such a bad idea in light of the lack of postive response by the organized jewish community:
link to thejewishweek.com
I personally am fed up with religious groups of every sort, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or whatever. I have been studying the origins of Freemasonry, over the last few weeks, and I am sick unto death of finding that, e.g., Robert Fludd thought that Plato, Pythagoras and Hermes Trismegistus all received their wisdom from Moses!
Dershowitz and declining ratio of legal “personhood” reminds me of the U.S. Constitution. “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned … according to their respective Numbers, …. to the whole Number of free Persons, … excluding Indians …, three fifths of all other Persons.” Of course on cannot be only 2/5ths dead. Declare humans non-persons, then it’s legal to kill them. I doubt he’d see his hypocrisy. Most hypocrites don’t or at least feign that they don’t.
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