You have to wonder. The House Foreign Affairs committee voted 23-22 to condemn the Armenian genocide in Turkey in the WWI era, prompting rage from Turkey. The committee is stacked with pro-Israel representatives: Howard Berman (chair), Gary Ackerman (vice chair), Ileana Ros Lehtinen (ranking Republican), Brad Sherman, Eliot Engel, Shelley Berkley.
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You are too much Phillip Weiss, you are definitely a puppet, but to whom I am not sure. Who is polling those strings?
confusing hey, when it is a jew and they aren’t offering the typical hasbara….
not too confusing, everyone has a puppet master.
Universal human rights. International law. Dignity. Freedom. Peaceful co-existence.
Some puppet master.
So who’s your puppet master, yonira? Or do you just post idiotic statements that you don’t really believe all on your own?
My ‘puppet master’ is the survival of the Jewish people. And in my opinion, Israel is a key factor for our survival.
That’s nice.
Your survival is dependent on the ethnic cleansing, dispossession, occupation, blockade, and enforcement of apartheid on another people.
Great.
Two democratic states side by side, one Israeli and one Palestinian is the only solution.
Yet you are willing to do nothing to achieve that goal.
Keep lying yonira! you are a Nakba denier , you re insensitive to the sufferance of non Jews on the land of Palestine.
“My ‘puppet master’ is the survival of the Jewish people. And in my opinion, Israel is a key factor for our survival.”
1) You absolutely must broaden this to “the survival of all innocent people”. This will necessarily include “Jewish people” to the degree to which they choose to reproduce and to the degree that they aren’t harming other people, so you needn’t make a narrow statement as you have.
2) If you think “the survival of the Jewish people” trumps the survival of other people, then you are no better than those who previously were concerned about “the survival of the Aryan people”. Do you really want that? It is also counter-productive, as this is the way to create enemies you wouldn’t otherwise have.
3) Prizing survival above all is nihilism, a betrayal of faith and thus a betrayal of Judaism. Any moral people would rather die out as the oppressed than as the oppressor. I hope that if I were ever in the awful position of having to choose either (a) death or (b) survival at the expense of other innocent lives, I would have the courage to choose the former.
“Two democratic states side by side, one Israeli and one Palestinian is the only solution.”
That’s what segregationists in 1950s America wanted, and what white South Africans wanted before the end of apartheid. It did not bring peace when it existed that way; peace came when the people learned to live together. Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived there relatively harmoniously until the chauvinists arrived. Defeat the chauvinist within you. Not only will you survive — your spirit will be freed.
Yes Sky7i very good post but yonira is a racist guy, in his Zionist ungodly programmed brain goys are the servants of the Jewish cause.
“Any moral people would rather die out as the oppressed than as the oppressor.”
Well said. (The rest of the post too, but especially that bit.)
Where have I denied the Nakba?
In a one state solution, surrounded by Arab countries, what is to prevent Israel/Palestine from becoming yet another Arab country? What is to prevent the Jews of Palestine from being driven from the Middle East like they were driven from all surrounding Arab countries? Forgive me for my cynicism, but I don’t believe these two people can live harmoniously, nor do I believe that a one state solution would be anything but a pretext for the expulsion of Jews from the Middle East.
Your comparison to segregation in the south is not relevant, nor is the comparison to SA apartheid, these were each driven by race, the issue here is based on nationality. Combining two nationalities and forgetting about nationalistic motives is what you are missing in this equation.
Jews lived in peace for centuries in the Arab world before Zionism came along. They can do so again once Zionism chills the f— out. I know several Jewish people who have lived in Ramallah and Gaza City, and they were treated with as much respect as anyone. Palestinians don’t have a problem with Jews. They have a problem with Israel’s brutal occupation and usurpation of their land.
Racists like you, your conflation of Israel with all Jews, and your blind support of Israel’s illegal, brutal policies endanger the Jewish people more than anything Hamas or Iran does. Not just their bodies, but also their souls. Defending the indefensible occupation makes you sick, crazy, immoral.
At least you are willing to grant that Palestinians are a nationality. But where’s their nation? And don’t tell me racism has nothing to do with Israel’s occupation. Have you heard how soldiers and settlers talk? It’s enough to make my racist old Southern grandpa blush.
Pamela,
I have heard how settlers and soldiers have talked and also how Hamas and Fatah supports have talked. I’ve heard it all, after hearing it all, I don’t believe that these two nationalities can live in a peace. You pretty much made my argument for me, and don’t call me a racist, you don’t know shit about me.
Funny how the Jewish people survived for centuries without Israel. Logic is not your strong point. A puppet master is another person, not an irrational and emotional obsession, which describes your belief in the centrality of the state of Israel to existence of Jewish people.
So who’s your real puppet master? After all, if you believe that everyone has one, why not share who yours is?
“… and don’t call me a racist, you don’t know shit about me.”
We only know you by what you post here. Nuff said.
tree- “Funny how the Jewish people survived for centuries without Israel.” Let’s just pick the twenty years before the establishment of Israel. Maybe an anomaly, but certainly sufficient to cause you to reconsider your language.
Pamela- Robert Fisk in his article “State of Denial” voiced his doubt whether there would be room for Jews in a one state solution. His voice regarding Israel is considered objective.
I already told you. The creation of two states, for two nationalities, side by side, is what drives me tree.
And are you automatically a racist if you don’t believe in a one-state solution? where is your logic?
Yes, lets look at the twenty years before the establishment of Israel. Which was well after the advent of Zionism. Zionism, which did little or nothing to rescue European Jews unless they headed to Palestine and were of a useful age and profession. Zionism also did much to discourage alternative rescue efforts, supported Germany economically during the early Nazi years through the Haavara Agreement, and was even mentioned positively by Hitler in Mein Kampf, since Zionism and German Nazi-ism both shared the same original goals, the removal of Jews from Europe. Nazi-ism was just a lot more willing to use violence to achieve its ends.
Zionism did little to protect European Jews. Like any other rabidly ethnocentric belief system, in the end Zionism only cares about those Jews that are useful to its own survival. Step out of line, or prove yourself a burden, and you’ll find yourself banished from the tribe, and described as a “self-hater”, just like a white person who’s called a “race traitor” by white supremacist groups.
I don’t need to reconsider my language. You need to reconsider your fantasy about what Zionism really means, and what its done to Jews and Palestinians.
I’m recalling your earlier statements, yonira. You have prejudices against Palestinians that you have expressed here in the past. And you don’t apply the same logic or reasoning to both sides. “Two states, side by side…” does not absolve you of your prejudice.
tree- You made a statement saying that the Jews did fine without a state. That is a statement that would not stand up in a court of law or to anyone who has a dime’s worth of integrity. You have about seven cents and are three cents short of a dime.
You missed the point again. Zionism didn’t “protect” the Jews in Europe. It simply sought to move them all to Palestine, and didn’t mind cooperating with anti-semites to get their way. It set up training camps in German for potential Jewish “pioneers” to go to Palestine, with the cooperation of the Nazi regime. Most European Jews didn’t want to go to Palestine. They wanted to state in their homes, and it was in no way a “help” to have a group of Zionist Jews insisting that Jews didn’t really belong in Europe.
Zionists already had a “nascent” state during the Nazi reign. It didn’t prevent a catastrophe. Frankly, the Zionist Jews in Palestine were lucky they had a strong European country in charge of Mandate Palestine then because the Jews in Palestine could have easily been overrun by Germany during the war without the protection of Great Britain. Really, wj, get out of your box and think rationally. I know you WANT to believe that Israel as a Jewish State is or was important to the survival of the Jews, but that’s not reality.
meant “stay in their home countries” not “state in their homes”
tree- You made a statement that said that the Jews did fine without a state. it is a statement that is ludicrous, callous and stupid.
The Jews did not have a nascent state, they were limited by the Brits as to how many Jews they could bring in.
There were 75,000 Jews in Palestine in 1920 and 400,000 in 1939, where would those Jews have been if not for Zionism?
Your hatred for Zionism blinds you to the facts.
Ask those Jews whose grandparents survived the war because of Zionism if they hate Zionism like you do.
Your love of Zionism blinds you to the facts. Some of those Jews whose grandparents survived the war because of Zionism do in fact hate Zionism. I’ve talked to some and read articles from others. You have a limited view of Israel and the history of Zionism. It is nowhere near as rosy and noble as you assume it to be. We will never know for sure, but its clearly quite possible that if all the money, time and effort spent “creating a state” in Palestine was instead spent ensuring the safety of European Jews, many more than 325,000 could have been saved. And if you had read Israeli histories of the time period in question you would know that some of those Jews in Palestine came from areas where they were in little or no danger, chosen over those in more danger because they were considered better “pioneer” material ( or, in other terms the Zionists also used, better “human material”).
The Zionists did not always use all their British quotas, and the quotas were not needed if the immigrants came with enough money.
Hate is too strong a word for what I think about Zionism. I consider it a very flawed and destructive ideology. I also consider it equivalent to other supremacist movements, no better, no worse. And as such, it is not only bad for those who are not of the approved ubermenschen, but it is in the end also destructive of those it claims to favor and protect.
Here’s a thought experiment for you, WJ. Lets suppose that Israel had already become a state in the 1930′s. They’d kicked Britain out, and ethnically cleansed the Palestinians. Think what would have happened when the German Army went through North Africa. No Britain to protect it, and a lot of angry Arabs upset about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. You could add another 400, ooo Jews to the casualties of WWII.
Having a state didn’t help the Poles in WWII, having a state didn’t help the Russians, either, or the Chinese. It didn’t even help the Japanese. And in the US, those Japanese immigrants who were interned during WWII were penalized because they were connected, in the minds of some Americans, with a state with which we were at war. “Having a state” of Japan was a negative for those Japanese immigrants. So, think about it. “Having a state” that greatly discriminates against non-Jews and that claims to represent all Jews can really do nothing but harm to Jews, as well as Palestinians. And I include in that harm the coarsening of the heart that comes with living in a state that devalues and demonizes those minorities over whom it rules.
The Brits were still in Egypt and they defeated the Nazis in northern Africa and not in Palestine. This still doesn’t make your statement that the Jews did fine without a state any less ludicrous, stupid and callous, but you are unable to apologize for anything you said, because to apologize to a Zionist is bad for your health.
Ah, and now you are mind reading and doing a poor job of it. I’m not apologizing because nothing I said was out of line. It simply offended your sensibilities and your dearly held assumptions that Israel is necessary or important to the survival of Jews. Apparently you think that you are the final arbiter of what is acceptable discourse and what is not.
Zionism predated Nazi-ism. It didn’t cure the problem; it didn’t really want to. And now it has created its own set of injustices, which in the end will jeopardize Jews as well as Palestinians. You cant see that now. I get it. You are too attached. Someday that will change and your eyes will see clearly. That is what I believe. Good night for now.
“Funny, how the Jews survived for centuries without a state.” A stupid callous ludicrous statement.
Great bit of argumentation there, WJ. Just keep repeating the same unsupported statement in the hopes that repetition will carry the day.
Again, good night, and I mean it this time. I’ll catch ya later.
Any honest historian would document the Jewish saga of the diaspora as being punctuated by misery. Even those on this web site who oppose Zionism would confess that this was the rule rather than the exception in Christendom, whereas they feel that in the lands where Muslims ruled that the Diaspora experience was tolerable. But anyone who would instead make a blanket statement that implies that the Diaspora was painless is indeed ludicrous, stupid, callous and (sorry about this Sarah Palin) retarded.
It is feasible to say that with the emancipation of the Jews, the enlightenment in Europe, the existence of a free and powerful community in America, the defeat of the Nazis in WWII, the fall of the Soviet Union and its suppression of the Jewish religion and identification, that a new day has dawned and that the past was a prologue to a better future and that the sad day of the travails of the Exile (or Diaspora) should not dim one’s vision of the future. But again to paint that experience as “Funny, the Jews did fine without a state,” is plain old callous, cruel, stupider than stupid and the reflection of an unthinking antiZionism that any thinking antiZionist ought to be ashamed of.
WJ, You seem to only consider the Ashkenazi Jews. I think it was different for the Orientals. I lived a while in Morocco and was pleased by the integration there. I also lived in Paris in the Marais ( the old Jewish quarter) and found likewise. The foundation of Israel worked against those Jews. Baghdad had a thriving Jewish population prior to ’48. Do you think that Shlomo Sands was right in that the Ashkenazis are descendants of the Khazars and not at all related to biblical Jews?
I didn’t mean to suggest that Paris is part of North Africa, although there are those who might. I refer to the integration of the Moroccans and Jews there. I had several personal experiences.
Any honest historian would document the Jewish saga of the diaspora as being punctuated by misery.
And any honest historian could document the HUMAN saga as being punctuated by misery. Most ethnic and religious groups in the world can point to numerous and continuing points of despair. Jews really are not that exceptional in that respect. Thinking that they are exceptional is disrespectful of the numerous indigenous groups that faced annihilation over the millennia. And if you study European history, there are very few groups that didn’t suffer a violent or oppressive past at several points. So, in that sense, Jewish history (in the diaspora or in the ancient Middle East, or in Israel) is well within the bell curve of human history. I understand that thought upsets you, because you focus only on Jewish pain and suffering and seem much less attuned to the pain of others. If you limit your focus, you will never see the forest for the (Jewish) trees. Jewish suffering existed, so did non-Jewish suffering. Jews as a group did not get a significantly worse lot that the average human suffering. Thus, they got along as fine as many other groups or religions over time and millennia. Israel has not improved their lot, and in some ways has worsened it, and to claim otherwise is counter factual.
Yonira defends Israel because he says it is necessary to Jewish survival. Jews have survived for millennia without a Jewish state. They didn’t need a state to survive. And now , with Israel, the US, and American Jews are being constantly bombarded with cries that Israel is constantly faced with “existential threats”. The state that claimed to exist to “protect Jews” is instead demanding that non-Israeli Jews must protect it. It isn’t protecting Jews, its endangering them, by the violence and oppression it serves up to the Palestinians in the self-declared name of all Jews. Jews in Israel are more at risk and in danger than Jews elsewhere. The state of Israel has not been a boon to Jewish survival. Perhaps it has been a temporary boon to Zionist survival, but the idea of Zionism, based as it is on a concept of Jewish exceptionalism and supremacy, is an idea that needs to die out. If you truly care about the future of Judaism you will understand that. A Judaism that relies on the crutch of Zionism will not survive as an idea.
Zionists did indeed have a nascent state in Mandate Palestine. The had, with British acquiescence, set up quasi-governmental agencies and power structures, anda somewhat separate economy. They controlled who among Jews came into Palestine during the 1930s, although they did not directly control the numbers. Prior to 1939, when the War made leaving Germany or any other European country much more difficult, British quotas were based upon the carrying capacity of the Jewish state-within-a-state, and the Zionists did in fact give preference to younger and more ideological recruits, just as they did after Israel’s independence. Like any other country on Earth, they took their own country’s interests ahead of any individual Jew’s interest. The state of Israel, and the pre-state, did little to help rescue those it did not want. Israeli historians have confirmed this. To claim otherwise is to be more committed to looking through rose-colored glasses than committed to viewing history dispassionately. A concerted effort to save Jews, absent the distraction and counterproductive effort to build a Jewish state through Zionism, could have saved many, many more European Jews, as well as saving the Palestinians.
The odd thing is that the Israeli side always took the lead in condemning this vote, whereby it never passed – either on the grounds that the Jews owned “genocide” and no other people could claim to have suffered it, or on the more realpolitik grounds of making nice with the Turks, one of the few states that could stomach Israel.
No question about it, Phil. The timing is suspect. Why Turkey, why now? With all the logjams in Congress at this point, why did the HFA Committee feel compelled to push this particular resolution, against a menber of NATO and an ally of the US?
The allegations pertain to events nearly a century ago, before any of those members of Congress were alive. No question about it — this is neo-con payback, and it’s meant to agitate the Arabic world to draw the US closer to the abyss of World War III.
Oscar, It might only be indicative of the stupidity of the current crop of Israeli politicos. I can’t imagine this passed without conferring at very high levels in the Israeli govt. Lieberman, Ayalon and Bibi don’t seem especially mature in their thinking, rather like adolescents. Oh my god, teenagers running the world.
I hope so, because that would just further strain relations between the two countries.
What price petulance??
Will Turkey now help Iran bust sanctions?
Will Turkey nor draw itself closer to Russia and China?
I think potsherd has it right. The Israeli side has opposed condemnation of Turkey until now. In fact, Abe Foxman took the lead in doing so, and he just changed his mind, deciding it was genocide after all. What a voice of conscience! A thrilling victory for integrity over realpolitik. On the other hand, Oscar, as the Times article indicates, the same measure passed by a wider margin, 27-21, two years ago, over the opposition of Rahm Emanuel. I don’t know what the timing was about then. Things were still good between Israel and Turkey.
I have to say I find the whole thing rather odd. I know that Turks today consider this to be a grievous insult, and the Japanese had an excruciating time apologizing for the treatment of Korean “comfort women,” but this type of nationalistic fervor leaves me very cold. It’s not unlike the way sports fanatics identify with their teams, even dating back to years before they were born.
Bob Simon Reports on the Longtime Feud Between Turkey and Armenia over Genocide, 60 Minutes 2/28/10:
link to cbsnews.com
While Turkey did carry out a genocide of Armenians, slaughtering more than a million, hearing Bob Simon report about it and actually using words like “massacre” and “denied” rings hollow. Has Simon ever mentioned Israel’s ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, massacres or the Naqbah? The answer is “No”. So, in that regard, his report amounts to propaganda. How righteous of him.
This is hysterical. Wait until Howard Berman (chair), Gary Ackerman (vice chair), Ileana Ros Lehtinen (ranking Republican), Brad Sherman, Eliot Engel, Shelley Berkley read history, the real history, and find out the architects (Young Turks) of the Armenian genocide were Donmeh Jews, or crypto-Jews as they are sometimes called. Here’s part of Henry Morgenthau’s story about that period when he was US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire.
link to semp.us
The 1916 letter wherein Morgenthau describes to President Wilson how the Young Turks studied the worst torture techniques known to civilization in order to use them to eradicate a people (the word genocide was not invented then) is in the London Times archive.
Here are photos from that time. link to ourararat.com
This crap again? You guys need a repeat button: for a great source on the Donmeh Jews don’t miss this %100 factual article on conspiracyarchive.com:
link to conspiracyarchive.com
The reason we are scared shitless of a one state solution is because of bullshit ideas like this and freaks like you who propagate this nonsense.
No the reason you are scared of the one state solution is because you cannot stomach the fact that *gasp* Israelis may actually be forced to give equal rights to the indigenous people of Palestine.
That Israelis would have to overturn apartheid, lift the occupation, end the blockade, and give citizenship to all its citizens (not just the Jewish ones) is what really scares you.
MRW is there any crime or injustice throughout history which you can’t pin on the Jews?
Seriously?
Yonira,
Unless you are willing to pay Highbeam Research for this Hillel Halkin article published from ZICHRON YAAKOV on January 28, 1994 in The Forward, this site will have to do.
link to report-abuse.lahana.org
I place far more trust in Hillel Halkin’s research and writing than your cape-waving over things you find unacceptable to you. Halkin recounts that he came ” across a remarkable chapter while browsing in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew in late 19th-century Palestine,” and it was this that led him to further research and the article.
And dont bother giving me one of your standard replies about how books and articles dont matter.
As for your accusation “is there any crime or injustice throughout history which you can’t pin on the Jews?” I would ask, what makes you think Jews are immune from crime or injustice, and brilliant examples of them? Jews, like Christians and Muslims of the Abrahamic faiths, and Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Taoists, Sihks, Shintoists, Druids, Satanists, Scientologists, Zoroasterians, atheists, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, are all capable of crime and injustice. BFD.
Back to fucking crypto-jew stuff, MRW?
The Ottoman Empire was in a war against Russia, the Armenians used that war to start an uprising against the Ottomons. Turkey forcibly removed hundreds of thousands of them, which fits the definition of ethnic cleansing. I’m not sure if the word genocide can really be used here, but regardless this was on the Ottoman Empire, not “Jews”, you twit.
Turkey should just take this in stride, apologize and then pass a resolution in its parliament condemning the US for genocide of American Natives.
House Foreign Affairs Committee headed by Congressman Howard Berman, passed the 2007 controversial House Resolution 252 by 23-YES vs 22-NO votes – recognizing the death of 1.5 million Armenians by the Turks as an act of genocide (mind you the word ‘holocaust’ is reserved for the Jewish death). The resolution alleges that “the Armenian genocide was conceived and carried out by the Ottomon Empire from 1915-23, resulting in the death of 1.5 million people” – is disputed historically. Many Turk, Armenian and Jew historians have reported that the mass killings of Armenian was in fact conceived and carried out by the Crypto-Jew (Donmeh) elites in political and military establishments during the last years of the Ottomon Empire including Talaat Pasha (Interior Minister during WW 1), Djavid Bey (Finance Minister) and Gen. Mustafa Kemal. Since in 2007 – Turkey was still considered Israel’s closet Muslim ally, Abraham Foxman, the leader of Israel lobby group, Anti-Defamation League (ADL) used his influence over the law-makers to defeat the bill. However, lately, Turkey’s independent foreign policy is inching towards its Arab neighbors especially Iran…….
Turkey on Israeli Hasbara Radar
link to rehmat1.wordpress.com
Pot meet kettle. Many reliable accounts say the US committed genocide on the same scale against the the first Philippine Republic. It happened during the same historical period. An estimated 1.5 million people were killed between 1899-1905, but the insurrection lasted for more than a decade. See for example “The Specter of Genocide: Mass Murder in Historical Perspective”, Cambridge University Press
Yeah, people are always forgetting what America did in the Philippines. Here are some quotes I had on an old home page about that campaign:
“Our fighting blood was up, and we all wanted to kill ‘niggers’… This shooting human beings beats rabbit hunting all to pieces.”
~ Letter from an American soldier during the Philippine War, ~1899
“Our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners, and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of ten up, the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog.”
~ Manila correspondent of the Philadelphia Ledger regarding the Philippine War, ~1900
“The War in the Philippines has been conducted by the American army with scrupulous regard for the rules of civilized warfare… with self-restraint and with humanity never surpassed.”
~ American Secretary of War Elihu Root regarding the Philippine War, ~1901
Most moral army in the world, indeed!
“(mind you the word ‘holocaust’ is reserved for the Jewish death).”
If I remember rightly, the term “holocaust” was first used for mass killing by Churchill, and it was the deaths of the Armenians he was referring to.
When will the house committee will recognise the Nakaba and the Palestinian genocide committed by Zionism? When they will Israel to reparations for its victims.
When the house committee will recognise the Nakaba and the Palestinian genocide committed by Zionism in 1948? When they will Israel to reparations for its victims.
Don’t forget this committee is lead by Howard “I was a zionist before I was a democrat” Berman. It does seem likely that this came from or passed the desk of Avigor Lieberman or Bibi.