A ‘constellation of Jewish groups’ (J Street to David Project) seeks to block any accountability for cruel occupation

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 321 Comments

The battle is joined inside the Jewish community over boycott/divestment/sanctions, specifically the Berkeley student bill calling for divestment from two companies. Below Sydney Levy, on behalf of Jewish Voice for Peace, and Yaman Salahi, of Students for Justice in Palestine at Berkeley, ask, "Why are American Jewish groups so intent on defending illegal Israeli settlements and other human rights violations?"

A coalition of nearly 20 Jewish groups, ranging from the right-wing David Project and the Jewish National Fund to the liberal J Street, is distributing a misleading statement condemning a Student Senate bill at UC Berkeley. The ground-breaking bill calls for divestment from companies that profit from the perpetuation of the Israeli military occupation in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and Gaza. They refer to the bill as "dishonest" and "misleading" and "based on contested allegations."

Yet it is their letter that is both dishonest and misleading.

The bill, available here, is based on extensive, footnoted research.

Yet this coalition of Jewish groups does not contest any of the facts. Without offering any evidence, they dismiss findings by reputable organizations like the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International. Instead of condemning these human rights violations, they prefer to misinform the public by suggesting that it is somehow wrong to “take sides” against universally recognized injustice. In so doing, they effectively defend illegal Israeli settlements and the Israeli military occupation that continues to disrupt everyday features of Palestinian life: education, health care, economic life, and art and culture.

Further, they claim that the Berkeley bill calls on the University "to divest exclusively from Israel." They imply that the bill calls for divestment "from any company doing business with Israel."

But this is simply not true.

The Berkeley bill focuses specifically on the Israeli occupation, not on Israel. While a vibrant and necessary debate on the merits of a total boycott and divestment from Israel continues around the world, it is not at issue here.

In reality, the bill divests only from two American companies that make money by equipping the occupation, General Electric and United Technologies – but no Israeli companies. It also announces an intention to divest from any company – whatever the nationality, and only after further research – that similarly profit from the occupation.

These groups choose to deliberately misreport the language of the bill, which refers specifically and exclusively to companies that:

a) provide military support for or weaponry to support the occupation of the Palestinian territories or b) facilitate the building or maintenance of the illegal wall or the demolition of Palestinian homes, or c) facilitate the building, maintenance, or economic development of illegal Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territories;

By condemning the humane and ethical policy of what is essentially morally responsible investment, do these groups mean to encourage investing in companies that provide the weapons of occupation, build the settlements of colonization, and render thousands of innocent Palestinians homeless?

They claim that the bill "unfairly targets the State of Israel." But Israel is the country building the settlements and administering the occupation. And it is one of the world’s best known human rights abusers that is not already sanctioned by the United States –which provides Israel with over $3 billion annually. Who else should the bill address?

There is no reason not to name Israel when it violates human rights, but these groups suggest that students should instead pass a bill with no teeth, a bill that merely condemns human rights violations in general without referring specifically to Israel. But it is absurd to suggest that students do not already condemn those violations in the abstract-or have not already worked to apply similar standards to countries like Sudan and South Africa and will not apply them similarly to other countries in the future. The bill merely applies widely held principles to a particular situation.

In effect they are calling on students not to apply the same principles applied elsewhere to Israel. These groups want us to ignore reality and to allow Israel to be the one and only human rights violator that escapes accountability and condemnation. Perversely, they themselves are guilty of singling out Israel in order to defend occupation and the unjustifiable oppression of the Palestinian people.

The statement acknowledges no wall, no home demolitions, no Israeli settlements, no Palestinian suffering. All of these, the letter calls "discrete incident[s] without consideration of the larger picture." How many more decades of occupation and dispossession will it take for our nation’s major Jewish organizations to issue a statement calling these injustices what they are, an inhumane and morally indefensible system of occupation?

By reducing these coordinated events to isolated incidents, they diminish their significance, aid the settlement efforts, and obstruct Palestinian freedom and human rights.

Most perniciously, they refer to the bill as "marginalizing Jewish students on campus who support Israel." The fact that they mention only Jewish students and not other students who might hold similar political positions reveals the true meaning of this statement: This is an intellectually dishonest and misleading accusation of anti-Semitism that cannot be taken lightly. The bill does not target any students: it only targets corporations that facilitate occupation.

/In fact, the Berkeley bill was co-authored by an Israeli Jewish student on campus and is supported by many Jews who have testified in favor of the bill and have written thousands of letters of support to the student senators.

Ironically, these groups’ statement actually marginalizes both Jews and non-Jews who oppose the Israeli occupation. It especially harms American and Palestinian students who may be harmed by such investments when studying, conducting research, or visiting relatives in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The misinformation campaign targeting UC Berkeley follows the same script that was used to defame similar efforts by the Presbyterian Church in 2008, which endeavored to ensure that it was “invested only in peaceful pursuits.”
 

Then, a similar coalition accused the Presbyterian Church of “one-sidedness” and in much more explicit terms, anti-Semitism. In other words, they re-cast the very idea that one should be “invested only in peaceful pursuits” in Israel-Palestine as biased or racist.

This year the Presbyterian Church is considering divestment from Caterpillar because of the company’s refusal to take responsibility for the destruction its bulldozers create in the West Bank and Gaza. The Simon Wiesenthal Center cast all logic aside and accused the church of engaging in "nothing short of a declaration of war on Israel." This kind of hyperbolic language is untrue, harms civil discourse, and only serves to hamper the efforts of those rightfully opposed to the demolition of Palestinian homes and the uprooting of Palestinian orchards.

Now in Berkeley, a constellation of Jewish organizations has regrettably mobilized its resources to stand in the way of yet another progressive victory. The letter’s deliberate distortions call into question whether the signers would support any method of monitoring, discouraging, and preventing Israeli human rights violations.

Instead, the letter’s signers suggest that Americans should act with their hands tied behind their backs, without the full toolkit of nonviolent resistance tactics that have been an essential part of all successful human justice movements.

However, not engaging in morally responsible investment when faced with the clear findings of human rights organizations and the international community would be morally indefensible.

Choosing to do something about Israel’s human rights violations does not require turning a blind eye to other injustices in the world as these groups suggest; but refusing to take action because of other examples would indeed turn a blind eye to this one. Now is the time to support Palestinian freedom and human rights. Berkeley students have done the right thing. Others should follow suit and divest from the occupation, as part of their general commitment to ethical investment policies.
 

Sydney Levy is the Director of Campaigns for Jewish Voice for Peace, a national grassroots organization dedicated to full equality between Israelis and Palestinians.

Yaman Salahi, a UC Berkeley alumnus and member of Students for Justice in Palestine, is currently a student at Yale Law School.

321 Responses

  1. eee
    April 10, 2010, 11:27 am

    “Choosing to do something about Israel’s human rights violations does not require turning a blind eye to other injustices in the world as these groups suggest;”

    But that is exactly what Berkley did.

    “but refusing to take action because of other examples would indeed turn a blind eye to this one.”

    Then why not take action on the others also?

    The argument makes no sense.

    • potsherd
      April 10, 2010, 11:38 am

      “They all suck”

    • Chaos4700
      April 10, 2010, 11:57 am

      I love it how eee’s defense of his country isn’t “We aren’t committing atrocities,” but “you shouldn’t punish us for committing atrocities.” As if the US putting Japanese Americans into internment camps, and other European nations persecuting native populations in the colonies, should have made it impossible for us to hold the trials at Nuremberg.

    • zamaaz
      April 11, 2010, 3:49 am

      Comments:
      [prior and subsequent to the bombing the Israeli government has engaged in collective punishment of the whole of the Palestinian population, in the view of the human rights community]

      [the Israeli government continues a policy of settlement expansion that, in the opinion of the United Nations Security Council, Human Rights Watch, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and numerous other organizations concerned with enforcement of international law, constitutes a direct violation of Article 49, paragraph 6 of the 4th Geneva Convention which declares “an occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into territories it occupies.]

      [ in the context of this bill, “occupation” refers to the current state of Palestinian life under Israeli’s military control in the West Bank and Gaza; a definition that is consistent to commonly-held international law; and]

      [General Electric holds engineering support and testing service contracts with the Israeli military and supplies the Israeli government with the propulsion system for its Apache Assault Helicopter fleet, which, as documented by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, has been used in attacks on Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, including the January 4, 2009 killings of Palestinian medical aide workers]

      I could never believe this!– I really laughed out loud! America which I appreciate with my heart and soul since I was a boy because of its pioneering spirit in liberty, democracy, justice, and faith in God can have such senators like this!

      1) collective punishment – the bodies of General MacArthur, Esenhower, Bradley, Patton, et al. must be ‘turning in their graves right now!’ after what they America have done to Germany, and Japan in WW2 they are rising it now? I think America must be ready to reimburse the war reparation paid by these vanquished nations.
      2) Settlement expansion – - the UN people do not read the Bible as m,any of these are heathens, or if not godless. What do you expect? Recognize the ancient right of Israel over Palestine?
      3) Occupation – What will you do with your own land, you have recovered ; owned by your own forefathers, but left abandoned because your grandfathers were dispossed by force or threat of death? Just look at it hopelessly in disgust and leave it to the illegal settlers or squatters?
      4) Engineering support and testing service contracts – Had not the Americans tested their new weaponry in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. in 1950s, 1970s, and 2000s? It is beyond rebuttal that the best testing of new equippments is actual applications –that is to test its capactiy to survive the rigors of battle? Do you want hundreds of thousands of american soldieers die in the future wars because they found out their weapons failed?

      I really could not believe to have some American senator as idiotic as this! My golly! his month’s allowance for car fuel alone could be enough to feed my family for a year!

      • Chaos4700
        April 11, 2010, 3:57 am

        the UN people do not read the Bible as m,any of these are heathens, or if not godless. What do you expect? Recognize the ancient right of Israel over Palestine?

        …yeah. I don’t really need to do anything but hang a lampshade on that, do I?

        • zamaaz
          April 11, 2010, 4:09 am

          Yes if you do not know what we know and understand what we understand either what is the use of talking peace, human rights with you? You do what you say and we do what we want! Go Israel! You have nothing to fear. (Anyway, even fear is not your option anymore!) What ultimately remains before you is the might of God alone! Just do what is promised, just, and right before the LORD!

        • thankgodimatheist
          April 11, 2010, 5:09 am

          What ultimately remains before you is the might of God alone! Just do what is promised, just, and right before the LORD!
          zamaaz
          ——————
          There’s a word in French which describes you best: Zinzin..You’re zinzin insane!..Get help quickly. No not a priest, a health professional.

        • thankgodimatheist
          April 11, 2010, 6:00 am

          What ultimately remains before you is the might of God alone! Just do what is promised, just, and right before the LORD!
          Zamass
          ——————-
          You mean your “god” is ok with the occupation, the slaughter and the ethnic cleansing as much as you are?
          May I say something to you and your repugnant god ? TFOOH in your faces, both!

      • zamaaz
        April 11, 2010, 4:03 am

        In retrospect, in the Book of Revelations, and of the prophets, in the end days when a 200 M enemy soldiers flood towards Jerusalem, the Bible never have mentioned any allied force to aid Israel. The war is between God alone against the enemies of Israel…Now I start to suspect even USA is not helping anymore, because by this time USA could be an unbeliever, heathen, and not a Christian and Godly nation anymore… Thanks to US Senators in the likes of Gaurano , Carlton, Kwon, and Oatfield…

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 4:04 am

          You do know that the Book of Revelations was actually about Nero’s Rome, and not the literal end of the world, right?

        • zamaaz
          April 11, 2010, 4:16 am

          Revelations deals with the final moments of human existence…At this point we will see if God who made true the ancient prophetic writings as found in archeologic findings is truly a living God. If not, at least we enjoyed our lives productively to the fullest, if true then we will see who are the hell fodders! At least I am wholly convinced by these ancient writings in the Bible. Thanks to that British King James!

        • zamaaz
          April 11, 2010, 4:30 am

          By the way most of the prophesies related to the evolution of civilization up to the end times are found in the books of Deuteronomy, Joel, Ezekiel, Ezra, Zechariah, Daniel, and Matthew (Gospels). Most of these are recursive prophesies particularly related to the dispersal, return of the Jews, rebuilding of Jerusalem, reestablishing Israel as a nation, the final invasion of the contesting nations, and the Divine intervention to defend Israel…At this point you will know which side you are! Recursive- meant history will repeat itself whenever the Jews are in the similar dire situation; because by covenant God promised personally their forefathers to preserve their descendants. I am using a computer Bible that is why I can search extensively, and intensively. I you want to contest me get one copy! Let us reason together!

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 5:16 am

          “Most of these are recursive prophesies particularly related to the dispersal, return of the Jews, rebuilding of Jerusalem, reestablishing Israel as a nation, the final invasion of the contesting nations, and the Divine intervention to defend Israel”

          False. God talks about recreating Israel in heaven, not here on earth.

          “‘because by covenant God promised personally their forefathers to preserve their descendants.”

          Except that Israel broke the Covenant, so the deal is off.

          “‘Let us reason together! ”

          Rdeasoninfg with someone who refers to the bible as evidenceo fanything is futile.

          You’re s religious nutcase like UNIX.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 5:18 am

          “At this point we will see if God who made true the ancient prophetic writings as found in archeologic findings is truly a living God”

          There are no archeologic that prove anything based on the Bible.

          “At least I am wholly convinced by these ancient writings in the Bible”

          That you base your beliefs on a book of cition speaks volumes. You’re wasting your time and ours on this blog. We deal in facts, not fairy tales.

        • thankgodimatheist
          April 11, 2010, 5:19 am

          Let us reason together!
          zamaas
          ————–
          Reason doesn’t seem to be the appropriate word. You surely meant’ let’s PRAY together’..

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 5:21 am

          Actually I should rephrase that.

          God prophecised that any attempts to re-create Israel would result in war and calamity, and that has proven to be true.

    • Citizen
      April 11, 2010, 10:19 am

      What other country/regime does the US give the same amount of financial support to that it gives to Israel? What other country is comparably immunized from UN resolutions by the US Sec Council veto? What other country’s protection has been a main reason for US wars, such as those in Iraq, Afghanistan, and–if recent history repeats itself, Iran? The argument makes lots of practical sense for anyone who cares for US interests–like General Petraeus. Anyone remember what Colin Powell said about “the JINSA crowd?”

      • Psychopathic god
        April 11, 2010, 11:06 am

        the other day at a town hall with a candidate for a federal office, Candidate attempted to move the crowd by telling of his concern for the 32% of US military who return from theatres of war in ME with PTSD. He said that Veterans Admin has budgeted $50million annually to deal with combat veterans’ mental health issues.

        As Avigail Abarbenal and Ian Lustick have explained, Israeli society is structured to perpetually re-traumatize Israelis in a ‘holocaust death cult’ (Lustick’s words), stimulating unceasing PTSD.

        To aid in causing PTSD among Israelis, US spends $3billion annually.
        To assist American veterans suffering from PTSD, US budgets $50million.

        draw your own conclusions

  2. Citizen
    April 10, 2010, 11:37 am

    Sarah Palin is on CSPAN now (SRLC 2010*), giving a speech she actually gave yesterday. Her theme was\is, “Just because we can, doesn’t need we should!” She constantly attacked Obama and her version of his policies, both domestic and in foreign policy arena. No mistakes in this speech so obvious as when she once said she could see Russian from her window, implying that was her credentials in that respect. She’s been really boning up on the more subtle (Hill version) hot button rhetoric. Wonder who’s writing her speeches these days?

    She repeated (with great gusto) Israeli foreign minister’s comment at the last AIPAC meeting that “Jerusalem is not a settlement!” and instantly concluded Obama was not giving proper
    respect to the “fact” that “Israel is our greatest ally!” Nothing about the plight of the Palestinians Muslims or Christians in the area controlled by Israel, such control paid for by the US.

    Next up on the SRLC podium, Bobby Jindal.

    *Southern Republic Leadership Conference

    • Citizen
      April 10, 2010, 11:38 am

      Sorry, typo:
      “Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should!

  3. Richard Witty
    April 10, 2010, 11:41 am

    I oppose the BDS movement, whether incremental or maximalist.

    I believe that it represents collective punishment in the name of opposing collective punishment.

    That being said, the identification of General Electric and United Technologies is incidental. It will not affect those companies in the slightest (except maybe as hoped for precedent). And, as so little of GE’s and United Technologies business and/or profits derive from the West Bank or Gaza, a boycott of them is an attempt at collective punishment as well.

    “We are trying to get them to change their behavior” (“them” being Israel, not GE or United Technologies), is what solidarity is saying by BDS. It is also what Israel is saying to Hamas by attacking its offices and militias in Gaza and collective punishment of non-involved civilians caught in the crossfire or caught in the line of tank advance and logistical clearing.

    • Chaos4700
      April 10, 2010, 11:51 am

      I oppose the BDS movement, whether incremental or maximalist.

      You are opposed, therefore, to sanctions against Iran? And you’ve been vocal in advocating for the lifting of the embargo against Cuba, right?

      • Richard Witty
        April 10, 2010, 12:01 pm

        I have been vocal about lifting the embargo against Cuba.

        You shoot first often, in the name of opposing shooting first.

        I don’t boycott Iran. I have recently bought dates, pistachios, probably some derivative of oil products, a carpet (a while ago) from Iran.

        Do you boycott Israeli products?

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 12:03 pm

          In buying internationally made products, I am a gross hypocrite, in that I am a public advocate for regional economy and have initiated a product disclosure effort measuring the average distance from final packaging point of materials and value addition.

          I probably have bought more products from Iran in the last year than from Israel.

        • Cliff
          April 10, 2010, 1:50 pm

          Are you say the ‘collective punishment’ of the people of Gaza by the Israeli government is the same as a BDS movement against companies that profit from the Occupation, fund the Occupation, and against Israeli cultural exports that white-wash the Occupation?

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 1:55 pm

          Not the same.

          If successful at isolation that results in a “we’ve got them on the run” result, with equally destructive and racist consequences.

          Both an attempt to influence others’ immoral behavior by the use of some coercive force, rather than persuasion and reconciliation.

          Multiplied by carelessness in design and application.

          Rationalizing brutality in the name of opposing brutality.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 3:59 am

          Israel has had sixty years to fess up, obey international law, and respond to diplomacy.

          Time’s up.

        • zamaaz
          April 11, 2010, 4:38 am

          Why should you boycott Iran? the Persians before they become Islamic, they were once a truly great nation a great people – science, military, governance, etc. they were the one that was instrumental by God in the return and rebuilding of Israel after the Jews were exiled in Iraq 6th century BC. These were magnanimous people. Once as Jewess became a Queen of Persia (Esther wife of Xerxes I). And she must a very nice and kind foster mother that the next king after Xerxes I, Artaxerxes I was likewise much kinder to the Jews; and helped them rebuild their nation in 4th century BC.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 10:22 am

          So where do you stand on the proposal in Congress to cut off Iran’s desperately needed imported supply of refined oil?

        • Psychopathic god
          April 11, 2010, 11:10 am

          how about allowing Iran to resupply its medical isotopes? 80,000 Iranians are awaiting treatment using medical isotopes, and Iran’s supply is dwindling.

          and we certainly wouldn’t want to engage in collective punishment of sick Iranians would we, Witty?

    • Citizen
      April 10, 2010, 12:02 pm

      If the BDS movement represents collective punishment, what does Israeli’s policy respecting Israel and its OT represent? Are Israelis dying at a ration of 100:1 due to BDS? Real life is not a parlor game, taken from the comfort of your gentile-protected oasis in the USA. Further, If you are against the BDS movement, Richard Witty, are you equally opposed to the economic and financial sanctions against Iran, all voted in by the US government? Gee, I didn’t thinks so. You are all for state-supported boycotts–so long as they are against a group of people you think less deserving than Israeli Jews. We may conclude that if there ever is a state of Palestine, and it legislates sanctions against any state, for example, Israel, that you will not support it. Just depends on which state, or group of stateless people, nicht wahr? We love you exquisite deposits of double standards. Keep it up. You show always what you mean by your self-declaration that you are a Zionist humanist. It always echoes what Israel means when it says it’s a democracy. Nothing oxymoronic about your thinking.

      • Richard Witty
        April 10, 2010, 12:05 pm

        Nor yours. I assume that you too oppose BDS, that you consistently oppose the boycott of Iran, Israel, others.

        I like my thinking. I find it to be the kindest and most progressive approach among the options that I observe available.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 12:28 pm

          Yes, I do consistently oppose the boycott of Iran, and of Cuba, for example. OTH, I support the boycott of Israel, as my comment indicates. I would also have supported the boycott of Germany back in the day when International Jewry announced it. And I supported boycott against apartheid S Africa. I am not against boycotts per se. I would also support boycott of the USA, and most especially against certain US private corporations’ products, e.g., Motorola, and CaterPillar, pending bringing the US private-public corporate government to sufficient account for its war crimes in the Middle East. You didn’t answer my comment.
          BDS is a tool, the tool of the powerless against the PTB. Same as an army. I don’t support the role of the US troops in the Middle East. The US policy is
          one of winning the hearts and minds of the natives–at the point of a bigger gun
          and massive control of world banking. I’m against that. And you?

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 12:43 pm

          I oppose boycott of Israel as I’ve commented here often.

          I find it to a collective punishment in the name of opposing collective punishment. Directed at Israel and in the careless forms that it is articulated, it has the great danger of spilling quickly into racist shunning and isolation. And, as it is nearly certainly ineffective (for the impossibility of precision) it is collective punishment without any redeeming result.

          Israel and Israelis are in close actual relationship with the US and Americans. A boycott of Israel is very different than a US boycott of Iran.

          For one, it is hypocritical for Americans to boycott Caterpillar (which involves no sacrifice), but not Intel, Motorola, Cisco, Microsoft and others each of which have significant research and development centers in Israel, and some in settlements (and/or near settlements, employing settlers).

          Secondly, in the name of urging that Palestinian families have the right to unify, it proposes dividing Jewish and Israeli families.

          I think when you said “tool”, you meant “weapon”, as a blunt punisher.

          How do we get policies and actions to change? Some say by effective weapons (Hamas, likud). Some say by persuasion that originates in self-criticism first, as distinct from “other criticism”.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 4:27 pm

          Witty,
          Do you support the boycott and other sanctions against Iran? I don’t.
          Did you support the boycot/ whould you have supported them, and other sanctions against apartheid S Africa? I did.
          Do you support the current boycott and others sanctios against Cuba? I don’t.
          Would you have supported International Jewry’s boycott against Germany?
          I would have.

          Of course you state the obvious, that all BDS movements in history have
          employed the tool (a weapon is a tool) of economic sanctions against a collective in behalf of a collective–all more or less. So what’s your point? It does not seem to be that on that collective basis, you would never and never did support any BDS or economic boycott.
          and Re: “For one, it is hypocritical for Americans to boycott Caterpillar (which involves no sacrifice), but not Intel, Motorola, Cisco, Microsoft and others each of which have significant research and development centers in Israel, and some in settlements (and/or near settlements, employing settlers).” I already said I supported the boycott against Caterpillar and Motorola. So, why are you including this in your response to me? Further, I also support a boycott against Cisco, Miscrosoft and other corporations involved as you describe.

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 4:36 pm

          “A weapon is a tool”

          Its a tool of coercion only.

          If you want to be a liberator, rather than a pendulum swing oppressor, use a non-coercive tool.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 6:42 pm

          “If you want to be a liberator, rather than a pendulum swing oppressor, use a non-coercive tool.”

          Non coersion is what is allowing 1600 apartments and many more go proceed with construction.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 10:29 am

          Witty, is the IDF a (massive) tool of coercion? And, does the US support that tool? Are you in favor of abolishing the IDF? Is a 1963 lunch counter sit-in a tool of coercion? How about Coxie’s army? Is AIPAC ‘s identifying of American Firsters, and steerage of monebags to Israel Firsters a coercive tool?

        • Psychopathic god
          April 11, 2010, 11:12 am

          I oppose sanctions against Iran.

          I advocate anything — ALL OPTIONS ON THE TABLE — to stop the zionist collective punishment of Palestinians, and to force Israel to come clean on its nuclear program.

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 4:25 pm

          So are you willing to be part of the army that fights Israel or are you just sending your mercenary army to do the job for you? Coward.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 4:34 pm

          Are you in the IDF eee?

    • sherbrsi
      April 10, 2010, 12:55 pm

      . It is also what Israel is saying to Hamas by attacking its offices and militias in Gaza and collective punishment of non-involved civilians caught in the crossfire or caught in the line of tank advance and logistical clearing.

      Yes Witty, the decision of some BDS-er in America not to buy Israeli oranges is wrecking the same collective punishment against the Israelis, as Israel is when it is blockading Gaza, controlling its air, land and sea through military occupation and imprisoning the entire population.

      This deception of yours rises from your previously stated claim that BDS is some sort of a violent campaign, but it is you who consistent paints it as such when, regardless of its articulations and targets which don’t meet to your satisfaction, its strategy is marked clearly and at every point by non-violent protest and education.

      Failing to differentiate between these two acts, one a time tested peaceable gesture of protest and the other an illegal and violent campaign which constitutes crimes against humanity by imprisoning an entire population, you further reveal to us just how little grasp you really have on reality.

      • sherbrsi
        April 10, 2010, 1:10 pm

        non-involved civilians caught in the crossfire or caught in the line of tank advance and logistical clearing.

        And don’t you just love his wording of “collateral damage.” As if phrasing it in such words does not make the concept as de-humanizing or absolve Israel’s direct attacks against civilians, protesters and structures, Witty again resorts to his beloved pseudo-intellectual euphemisms.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 4:33 pm

          Witty’s stance is always illogical. I sure hope he knows numbers better since he says he’s employed as an accountant. Of course, to give him his due, he always knows who his employer is–sort of like Moody’s et all. We all know how that system turned out for the average American taxpayer.

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 4:39 pm

          It certainly can be the same, depending on whether it ‘”successfully” isolates Israel and supporters.

          I personally wish for BDS to fail, but its mission of transformation to “enough Zionism” to succeed.

          Many here don’t distinguish, and some here wish for the punitive portion of BDS to succeed without the transformative.

          At least citizen is aware that BDS is a weapon, and not intended as “non-violence” in fact.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:41 pm

          Yep, just as ML King used non-violence as a weapon.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 4:00 am

          At least citizen is aware that BDS is a weapon, and not intended as “non-violence” in fact.

          Oh yes, Witty. War is peace, and ignorance is power.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 10:39 am

          NO. Witty. BDS is most clearly a non-violent weapon tool. Words are weapons too, of course. Nothing I said indicates I view BDS as a literal weapon, like a bayonet, or a gun, or an F-16, or an Apache helicopter, or white phosporhous.
          AIPAC is a weapon, just not a literal weapon. It’s a tool to subsidize real weapons used by the IDF to oppress the natives of the Palestinian lands.

    • Shingo
      April 10, 2010, 4:29 pm

      “I believe that it represents collective punishment in the name of opposing collective punishment.”

      Yet you fully support the blockade of Gaza even thought it represents collective punishment in the name of opposing collective punishment?

      • Richard Witty
        April 10, 2010, 4:42 pm

        I fully support substantive reconciliation, genuine acceptance of Israel’s existence, that makes blockade unnecessary.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:46 pm

          Witty, what do you mean? What’s the substance of your POV? What should a Palestinan think about their existance as a people with the right to self-determination?

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 12:02 am

          “I fully support substantive reconciliation, genuine acceptance of Israel’s existence, that makes blockade unnecessary.”

          The blockade has nothing to do with the acceptance of Israel’s existence. Israel imposed the blockade after Hamas declared they would recognize all treaties with Israel.

      • sherbrsi
        April 10, 2010, 5:24 pm

        Shingo,

        The problem is not whether Witty supports the Gaza blockade.

        He must be held accountable to his continued insistence of putting the Israeli blockade on the same platform as the BDS campaign, which in his own words he describes as “radical” and “brutal” – such blatant misrepresentations that I would accredit nothing less than him having a personally motivated agenda to smear the entire campaign to fit within his own worldview of the conflict being based on “mutual abuses.”

        The attribution of violence to BDS is imperative to him because he doesn’t want to admit that Israel is the guilty party here, he doesn’t want to acknowledge that there is no symmetry in this conflict, and so to counter Israel’s grossly inhumane and violent campaign of imprisonment of the Gazan population, he has to prop up an equivalent on the Palestinian side, and the closest thing he comes up with is the BDS campaign.

        But even that is not valid counterpart unless he makes it to be a “violent” and “brutal” strategy, and so he goes forth trying to convince us that what is most assuredly and historically a peaceable campaign is the same as Israel’s militarily imposed collective punishment and act of war.

        But he has no case. It is utterly illogical to claim that no matter how we perceive these two campaigns, BDS and the Israeli blockade, are even remotely similar, in either ideology or execution. For the former consists of making a personal choice of boycotting Israeli products and opposing its policies, which is, at most a symbolic resistance to its blatant violations of law, while the latter is the collective imprisonment and subjection of an entire population to the rule of a military regime, which intrudes upon and directs each and every aspect of Gazan life.

        So here we have Witty implying, in clear terms, that my decision not to buy Israeli oranges is “collective punishment” in the same way that the Israeli decision to allow clothes into Gaza after years is “collective punishment”, and that my decision has “equally destructive and racist consequences.”

        If this isn’t proof enough of Witty’s loose grasp on reality, I don’t know what is.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 5:27 pm

          Well put, sherbsri. You are a great addition to the comment section here.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:55 pm

          Worth repeating–think of Seinfeld show:
          “But he (Dick Witty, out in Goyland, all jew, but protected by Goys)has no case. It is utterly illogical to claim that no matter how we perceive these two campaigns, BDS and the Israeli blockade, are even remotely similar, in either ideology or execution. For the former consists of making a personal choice of boycotting Israeli products and opposing its policies, which is, at most a symbolic resistance to its blatant violations of law, while the latter is the collective imprisonment and subjection of an entire population to the rule of a military regime, which intrudes upon and directs each and every aspect of Gazan life.

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 10:27 pm

          There is a fundamental difference between sherbsri’s model of what is occurring and mine (and many others).

          That is the distinction between whether it is representative to call the status as an oppression or a conflict.

          The language and framing is important in that it compels very different means to resolve the issues.

          I agree that there are many elements of repression and oppression by Israel, but that I conclude that the overarching and fundamental relation is of conflict, that oppression is a subset of the conflict rather than the other way around.

          There is no talking between those in the two different lakes. They are oil lakes and water lakes.

          The problem though is that to my understanding, pursuing the “justice”/”oppression” theme yeilds war metaphors and actions, including using BDS as a weapon, not as a communication.

          The adoption of “weapon” analogies, indicates an assumption that communication and reconciliation is impossible.

          Being called a “monster” is truly offensive, truly aggressive.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 12:07 am

          Although Witty’s grip on reality is clearly absent, his motive is cpnflatipn and denial. Ge cannot afford to admit the obvious, as is demonstrated time and time again by his insistence that Hamas started the 2008 Gaza war. No matter how many tome his lies are debunked with irrefutable evidence, he simply dissapears and returns another day to repeat the same lies.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 12:09 am

          “Being called a “monster” is truly offensive, truly aggressive.”

          The truth can hurt.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 10:46 am

          RE: “I agree that there are many elements of repression and oppression by Israel, but that I conclude that the overarching and fundamental relation is of conflict, that oppression is a subset of the conflict rather than the other way around.”

          Witty, there is a difference between depriving an Israeli of profit for sale of an orange (pilfered from a Palestinian tree), and dropping a rain of US paid- for white phosporus on kids and pregnant mothers.

        • sherbrsi
          April 11, 2010, 6:58 pm

          Being called a “monster” is truly offensive, truly aggressive.

          What is truly offensive and truly aggressive, is not being called a monster, but being one, and not calling it out for it. As you still now fail to acknowledge the Israeli blockade for it is.

          And you consistently display that tendency, Witty, even now, as you fail to respond the arguments set forth in my post, yet babbling on about “oil lakes and water lakes.” I am afraid you have simply become too comfortable in the world of your delusion, and I have no interest in treating your shortcomings in understanding, especially when from what I gather the regulars here at this site have tried to drill some sense into you, but to no avail.

        • Richard Witty
          April 11, 2010, 7:30 pm

          To call me a monster is so silly as to really describe you guys as living on some other planet.

          Your range of persuasion is VERY LIMITED if you regard someone that publicly advocates for a two-state solution at the green line, with full civil rights for minorities in each state, and limited right of return, as a monster.

          The only way that you could possibly accomplish political critical mass with that criteria would be by very very corrupt and mass hateful movement, which is thankfully highly unlikely in the states and most of Europe.

          If you represent dissent, it is a great tragedy.

          The blockade is an exagerated means to prohibit the importation of weapons historically used for war crimes by Hamas and other factions. There should be means to prohibit that importation that allows legitimate civilian imports, but so long as Gaza remains a territory run by a militia, even that will be limited.

          To demand normalization without the institutions of normalization is an unrealistic fantasy on your part. To attempt to then agitate on that basis is heat in a pressure cooker, not a liberation movement.

          With the degree of “success” that the left has on Israel/Palestine, it should be horribly embarrassed, and undertake serious self-reflection.

        • yonira
          April 11, 2010, 7:45 pm

          Thanks Witty.

          Your range of persuasion is VERY LIMITED if you regard someone that publicly advocates for a two-state solution at the green line, with full civil rights for minorities in each state, and limited right of return, as a monster.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 7:50 pm

          Witty doesn’t advocate that. As we’ve pointed on on numerous occasions, Witty has insisted that Israel be allowed to keep illegal settlements outside of the Green Line. To him it is merely a question of how many are gratuitous.

        • yonira
          April 11, 2010, 7:58 pm

          settlement blocks need to dealt w/ on a one to one land basis along with additional (huge)compensation for the new Palestinian state.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 8:04 pm

          Why? It’s all population transfer onto occupied land, and it’s all blatantly illegal by the terms of the Geneva Conventions. You don’t get to “plea bargain” when it comes to war crimes, and the Palestinians shouldn’t be expected to sacrifice anything more than even the Green Line borders offer as an abrogation of their rights — that’s still significantly in excess of what the UN first recognized as Israeli borders in UN 181.

        • Richard Witty
          April 12, 2010, 12:41 pm

          “We’ve demonstrated” (I hear echoes of Joe McCarthy).

          My recommendation is that settlers be allowed to reside in Palestine and become Palestinian citizens if they desire. That way, there is not the prospect of mass forced removal, but only of change of citizenship.

          People can then choose which is more important to them.

  4. potsherd
    April 10, 2010, 11:41 am

    This attitude seems to be universal among Zionists. Like the Israelis, threating the whistleblower who disclosed official crimes with a life sentence for treason, while ignoring the actual crimes she revealed.

    The greatest sin in the Zionist mind is tearing a hole in the coverup.

  5. eee
    April 10, 2010, 11:47 am

    Potsherd,

    You are wrong, it is Americans who are the masters of cover up:

    Meanwhile, in Afghanistan, the U.S. military has finally admitted that Special Forces troops killed two pregnant Afghan women and a girl in a February, 2010, raid, in which two Afghan government officials were also killed. Brilliant reporting by Jerome Starkey of The Times of London has blown apart the U.S. military’s cover-up story that the women were killed by knife wounds administered several hours before the raid.

    It now appears that the knife wounds may have been inflicted by the Special Forces troops retrieving their bullets from the dead or dying women’s bodies. Starkey’s story last Sunday in The Times reported that “Afghan investigators also determined that American forces not only killed the women but had also ‘dug bullets out of their victims’ bodies in the bloody aftermath” and then “washed the wounds with alcohol before lying to their superiors about what happened.”

    link to counterpunch.com

    I didn’t no Americans enjoyed digging out bullets from dead pregnant women after they kill them. What kind of sick bastards are you potsherd and why do you think you have any moral standing to criticize Israel?

    • Chaos4700
      April 10, 2010, 11:52 am

      Speaking of cover-ups:

      link to counterpunch.org

    • James Bradley
      April 10, 2010, 12:37 pm

      Is this the new Hasbara debating tactic?

      Highlighting American atrocities as if that somehow validates Israeli atrocities?

      1) Anyone can criticize anyone on a moral level.

      I criticize Sudan, Saudi Arabia, China, Burma, the United States, and several other countries that I feel commit crimes against humanity – Naturally I also criticize Israel because it is engaged in crimes against humanity on a daily basis.

      2) Israel is the largest recipient of American aid, enjoys one of the closest relationships with the United States, and has a horrible effect on our domestic and foreign policies.

      Thus, as a tax paying American I have a right to criticize that relationship by bringing up Israeli crimes against humanity and by highlighting how my countries relationship with Israel is detrimental to American interests.

      Anyway, we know that your only playing this “America does worse!” game in a vain attempt to once again side line the topic. You know as well as anyone else that you need the United States to bank roll, arm, and defend Israel from international criticism of its policies.

      Seriously, drop the charade.

      • UNIX
        April 10, 2010, 12:40 pm

        Interesting that you accuse Israel of crimes against humanity, yet in the same breath you support the massive expulsion of Jewish families from their land.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 12:47 pm

          UNIX, how exactly does James Bradley “support the massive expulsion of Jewish families from their land?”

          Sorry, if you are implying that God gave the whole Palestine Mandate to Israel, or that the UN did partially, you know, the UN Israel constantly disses, we don’t buy your cheap oriental rug. We turned it over–so it was/is a fake. Otherwise what on earth are you talking about?

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 12:50 pm

          First off, yes I am am implying that the entire Palestine Mandate is Jewish land.

          Second off I think James can answer his own litmus test, he is a big boy.

          If you think it’s ok to suit up in army gear and go door to door expelling and making refugees of Jewish families, men women and babies, then say so, suit up and be ready to do the dirty work yourself.

          But then don’t claim to be a person of high morals and don’t claim that you don’t have dirt on your hands for the crimes you will commit.

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 12:57 pm

          You will cause great, unnecessary, unholy suffering by that effort, UNIX.

          You are obviously not an orthodox or any sincerely practicing Jew, as you are posting on Shabbat (as am I).

          Your comments strike me as similar to suicide bombers, willing to die or urge others to do for their maximalist dogmas.

          Sorry to be so blunt.

          One critical theme of Judaism is contentment, of acceptance, of satisfaction. As we sing on Passover, “If God had only done …. It would have been enough”.

          One would hope that that would also be a theme of Christianity and of Islam.

          The maximalist themes are rejections of spirituality, rejections of religious values.

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 1:03 pm

          Mr Richard Witty,

          I would be willing to moderate my views if there was also moderation on the other side. In fact at this time I am a maximalist.

          The reason being is that the enemy is as well.

          They seek to expel Jews from their homes and land, as well as lead an influx of millions of Arabs into the remaining Jewish land to flood out the Jewish refugees.

          What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If it’s ok to expel Jews, then guess what? It’s ok to expel Arabs. If it’s NOT ok to expel Jews, then ok I can moderate.

          Thank you for your concern. I appreciate it and I understand where you are coming from.

          This is not a moderate climate in this forum and I am not ready to give up my maximalist (entire palestinian mandate, east and west bank) at this time.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 4:48 pm

          I already have dirt on my hands for what my government and it’s proxy Israel (via AIPAC et al, including especially the US Congress and all US presidents since 1945 except JFK, and Ike) have done in my name. Those are not crimes I will commit, but crimes that have already been committed, and continue to be committed–in my name. Further, I pay for those crimes with my tax dollars. I object to this all the time, both on the internet, and via direct contact with my US congress people and White House. If you think it’s ok to suit up in army gear and go door to door expelling and making refugees of Palestinian-Iraqi–Afghanistani-Yemenite-Pakistani families, men women and babies, then say so, and suit up and be ready to do the dirty work yourself. I know it’s too much to expect you to suit up in US Army gear, but at least go suit up in IDF gear. BTW, did you serve in the active US military? I did. Even as a US soldier I protested US policy–and I paid for it big time. I ask people who come to this blog to understand and smell out a twerp. We have some here; and they all appear to have taken a bad course in Hasbara 101. Or maybe they just haven’t been up to that weak challenge?

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:03 pm

          Let’s look at the group that has been expelled from the Palestinian Mandate since Balfour–what do we get? Is 22% of the former Palestinian Mandate just too much real estate for the natives to be entitled to, even though they were originally about 93% of the inhabitants of that land at the time the Balfour letter was proclaimed? The goose and gander routine needs to be put in context. BTW, in Mein Kampf, Hitler does his own goose and gander routine.

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 10:32 pm

          “The reason being is that the enemy is as well. ”

          That is a falsehood if you are referring to the predominant governing powers within Palestine. Fayyad, Abbas are NOT pursuing a maximalist approach, but a reconciliation approach.

          Focusing only on the rhetoricians diminishes their progress, in your and others’ perceptions, and in practice.

          As the radical left shoots itself in its foot, in seeking peace, your approach prohibits what Torah and all religion teaches.

          You define yourself. Your “enemy” has already won if their actions and attitudes define yours. Be freer than that.

      • eee
        April 10, 2010, 2:21 pm

        James,

        You have no right to criticize Israel before you have clean hands. As it stands you represent a country whose soldiers dig out bullets from pregnant women they shot.

        Saying you criticize also others is easy. The fact is you spend your time on an Israel bashing blog.

        There is no charade, there is common sense. Fix your own home first. Lead by example or shut up. Where is the American B’tselem in Afghanistan? Where is the Machsom Watch of Afghanistan? Why are you spending time bashing Israel instead of monitoring your own troops?

        I’ll tell you why. Because you are an Israel hater.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 2:33 pm

          What a hypocrite, eee. Follow your own advice. Clean up Israel before you start bashing others if that’s what you really believe. But we all know that it isn’t. You reserve the right to bash other countries but don’t accord the same right to others.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 4:22 pm

          Tree,

          Wake up. You are the hypocrite. You are an American on an Israel BASHING blog. The blog was here way before I came. You have been BASHING Israel for a long time while your hands are full of blood from gutting almost dead pregnant women. Who is the hypocrite? Who is BASHING Israel with bloody hands?

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 4:32 pm

          eee, you are the one insisting that no one (except you) can criticize other countries besides one’s own. I, on the other hand, along with most of the people who post here, think that everyone, no matter where they live and who they are criticizing , deserve that right to do so. You do not. Let me explain hypocrisy to you. If I do not follow YOUR standards and proscriptions, I am not being a hypocrite. However, you, who insist that one can not criticize Israel if you are a citizen of another country, are a hypocrite, because you are not following YOUR OWN standards and proscriptions.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 4:35 pm

          Clarification: When I said “You do not” I was referring to your belief, not your right. As far as I am concerned you have every right to criticize the US if you want. You, on the other hand, do not think that anyone here has the right to criticize Israel, but you reserve for yourself the same right that you deny to others. That’s what makes you a hypocrite.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:08 pm

          It’s kinda hard to fix our own home first–AIPAC makes it so; but, yes, I agree we here in the USA need to fix our electoral campaing finance laws. I am hoping that the tea party people will add this to their agenda. And it won’t be kicked to the curb by the Republican party which is trying to take over that movement, just as the Democrats took over Moveon org. Indeed, US troops need to be monitored, just as the IDF needs to be monitored–after all, we US taxpayers pay for both.

        • potsherd
          April 10, 2010, 5:31 pm

          It looks to me like eee is an America-hater.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 8:55 pm

          “You have no right to criticize Israel before you have clean hands. ”

          So Israel has no right to complain about Iran having nukes until Israel agrees to get rid of it’s own first correct eee?

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 10:53 am

          So, eee, you honor Jesus, who said, “Let the one who commited no wrong throw the first stone?” Did you forget that the Jews who did not become Christians never bought Jesus’s spiel? They had their own law–an eye for an eyelash. They still do. As the US general leading CITCOM (ha) said recently, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians puts US troops in harms way. But, you don’t care much about that, we see.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 10:55 am

          The innocent Palestinian kids who throw the stones at the Merkavah tanks–they are following the philosophy
          of Jesus, the radical Jew. Too bad Hagee et al are so blind.

      • Shingo
        April 10, 2010, 4:31 pm

        “Is this the new Hasbara debating tactic?

        Highlighting American atrocities as if that somehow validates Israeli atrocities?”

        It’s not new at all.

    • Citizen
      April 10, 2010, 12:40 pm

      RE: EEE, hey Mooser–that’s Habara main talking point #4, right? No question the USA is a master of cover-up; not yet as efficient or subtle as its mentor, Israel, but catching up all the time. Your sample case illustrates such. It’s absolutely true that
      regime sickness continues to afflict both the US and Israel. BTW, Eee, what do you know about what Potsherd thinks about US black OPS? Why do you assume he likes it and only picks on Israel? Judging by Postsherd’s past comments on this blog, it’s much more reasonable to think Potsherd applies the same standard to both countries. It’s elementary that you can be a good American when you criticise your own country’s policies, and, similarly, you can have Israel’s best interests at heart if your criticise its policies. Otherwise, in either case, you are just a sheeple,
      rubber-stamping the PTB. That’s just a version of “only following orders.”

    • potsherd
      April 10, 2010, 3:22 pm

      “Everybody sucks”

    • Citizen
      April 10, 2010, 6:58 pm

      Yes, the American regime is trying really hard to copy Israel’ s ethics and morality. So, we should be happy?

      • eee
        April 10, 2010, 9:00 pm

        You guys are clueless. FIX YOUR OWN HOME before BASHING Israel. Why are you not in Afghanistan making sure your soldiers do not gut pregnant women?

        • potsherd
          April 10, 2010, 9:06 pm

          eee has only one thing to say but he keeps saying it

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 9:10 pm

          Why are you here if you really believe what you say? Follow your own advice before attempting to give it to others And if you don’t believe what you say, then why, oh, why should we listen to you repeat this ad nauseum? I’m this close to reporting you again for abuse. Spamming the same comment over and over is not engaging in respectful debate.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 11:06 am

          EEE, we are doing our best to get US troops out of the Middle East, and we are doing our best to stop US funding of Israeli atrocities. It’s an uphill battle, as JFK found out, and for which discovery he was arguably murdered. Ditto Bobby Kennedy, who, ironically was clearly murdered for ostensibly supporting Israel right or wrong by the Palestinian assassin. I agree. We need to fix our own home.
          This includes fixing Israel since zionist Americans have told us all along the two states are one except in physical borders. And the world has seen, indeed, this is so.

    • Avi
      April 11, 2010, 6:07 am

      Potsherd,

      You are wrong, it is Americans who are the masters of cover up:

      Why don’t you explain why you don’t have a Hebrew keyboard even though you allegedly live in Israel?

      • Citizen
        April 11, 2010, 11:09 am

        Maybe he will also explain why we should not critcize Israel for many of the same reasons we criticize the US? The geezers here never backed Lt Calley, so why should we back Israel?

      • eee
        April 11, 2010, 4:28 pm

        Avi,

        Care to explain why you are using ad-hominem arguments?

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 4:36 pm

          “Care to explain why you are using ad-hominem arguments”

          it seems to be the only thing you understand.

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 4:38 pm

          You are funny and nonsensical. Good to know you condone ad-hominem arguments.

  6. DICKERSON3870
    April 10, 2010, 12:11 pm

    RE: “A ‘constellation of Jewish groups’ (J Street to David Project) seeks to block any accountability for cruel occupation” – Weiss

    ALSO SEE: The Trial of Israel’s Campus Critics, by David Theo Goldberg and Saree Makdisi, Tikkun Magazine, September/October 2009
    (EXCERPT)…It is an extraordinary fact that no fewer than thirty-three distinct organizations-including AIPAC, the Zionist Organization of America, the American Jewish Congress, and the Jewish National Fund-are gathered together today as members or affiliates of the Israel on Campus Coalition. The coalition is an overwhelmingly powerful presence on American college campuses for which there is simply no equivalent on the Palestinian or Arab side. Its self-proclaimed mission is not merely to monitor our colleges and universities. That, after all, is the commitment of Campus Watch, which was started by pro-Israel activists in 2002. It is, rather (and in its own words), to generate “a pro-active, pro-Israel agenda on campus.” There is, accordingly, disproportionate and unbalanced intervention on campuses across the country by a coalition of well-funded organizations, who have no time for — and even less interest in — the niceties of intellectual exchange and academic process. Insinuation, accusation, and defamation have become the weapons of first resort to respond to argument and criticism directed at Israeli policies. As far as these outside pressure groups (and their campus representatives) are concerned, the intellectual and academic price that the scholarly community pays as a result of this kind of intervention amounts to little more than collateral damage…
    ENTIRE ARTICLE –http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/sept_oct_09_goldberg_makdisi

  7. VR
    April 10, 2010, 12:37 pm

    My grandparents opposed Nazi Germany with the sanctions called for against it in the US community. I see no difference in the calling for sanctions, targeted or total against the murderous colonial settler state of Israel. Therefore I give my full support to the BDS direction and goals.

    The official state stances of the US and other Western countries have applied sanctions to target countries, no matter how weak and vulnerable they were. It is time to stop the double standards of just opposing abuses in third worlds countries (many times to just make them bow the knee to a global mafia), and for the BDS to be applied to one of the “in group” darling countries – otherwise there is nothing going on here but might makes right, period.

    • VR
      April 10, 2010, 12:45 pm

      As the people rise up in concert to apply BDS to the Murderous Colonial settler state of Israel we can wait for the “official” to catch up, the elites will have to eventually follow as the pressure builds. In the retorts against divesting from GE and United Technologies, that what they do for Israel is a very small part of their profit margin, I agree. This is why when the pressure builds enough, GE and United Technologies will drop this activity like a hot potato. That is the goal, the sooner they stop this the better, otherwise it stands the chance of ruining the rest of their business endeavors. Large and small blocks on institutional investors should move swiftly to divest, the quicker the divestment is the faster these corporations will stop their immoral activity in this scenario.

      • UNIX
        April 10, 2010, 12:46 pm

        HAMAS in Gaza and the PLO deserve boycott, not the Jews that are building in their land.

        I suggest general divestment from all Arab and Palestinian companies until they stop the racist incitement and platform that encourages the mass pogrom of expulsion against Israeli Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 1:11 pm

          The Jews are building in Palestinian native land. The whole former Palestine mandate has been the Palestinian homeland for thousands of years. Most of the jews there now, both in Israel and the Israeli OT–came from Europe. That’s a simple fact. Get use to it. Quit repeating myths. The Germans too, back in the day, had their myths. Time for Israel and the Jewish diapora to sign on to the lessons of Nuremberg. Quit pointing to lebensraum wars in the past, look forward to
          why those German leaders were hanged at Nuremberg. To do otherwise means you simply subscribe to the tribal wars of ancient history, including those depicted in the bible, and to Hobbes. Don’t claim to be progressive if you support Israel’s lebensraum project.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 2:27 pm

          Citizen,

          The Afghan people did nothing to you, why are you killing their pregnant women and then gutting them with knives? Why are you even dealing with the issue of Israel when you need to tame your barbaric instincts and colonial behavior?

          And then why are you preaching to Israel instead of leading by example? You have zero moral standing. Solve your own problems. Or are you biased against Israel?

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 2:35 pm

          Same back atcha, eee. Solve your own moral problems before you start criticizing others, or admit that you are holding others to standards you don’t acknowledge for yourself.

        • sherbrsi
          April 10, 2010, 3:29 pm

          when you need to tame your barbaric instincts and colonial behavior?

          Hey eee. Just before you were causing a ruckus that Israelis were being collectively smeared due to the organ harvesting ring of a few bad apples. But now this incident of murder is enough to make the Americans “need to tame” their “barbaric instincts and colonial behavior”?

          Thanks for making your double standards clear for all to see.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 4:25 pm

          Tree,

          Your position is untenable. This blog and you were BASHING Israel way before I ever showed. The US is the world superpower and trend setter. It is 1000 times more important than Israel. FIX YOUR OWN HOME.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 4:46 pm

          Part of fixing our own home is informing American’s on what we are supporting when we “support” Israel. That is what I do here. It is not the only thing I do. We all have lives outside of here, and we all criticize the US just as much as we do Israel. I get that you can’t understand that, but that is the reality. Fixing the situation in Israel/Palestine is part and parcel of fixing the US. We, as a nation, have been supporting injustice there for so long that it is our responsibility to fix the mess we have created with that unthinking and immoral support. That is what most of us are about here. You tell us to fix our own home, but that is what we are attempting to do here. You, on the other hand, are not helping solve Israel’s moral crisis by coming here and posting silly talking points that you don’t really believe in. Why don’t you try taking your won advice and lead by example.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 4:47 pm

          eee,

          The Palestinian people did nothing to you, why are you killing their pregnant women and then gutting them with knives?

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:21 pm

          I agree with you, EEE, the Afghan people did nothing to me. I am in agreement with their stance–USA, get the heck out! I do all I can to make my elected officials aware of my stance. I fund Ron Paul. I am dealing with the issue of Israel for the exact same reason: the Palestinian people never did anyting to me, yet my governmetn is killing them by enabling Israel to so so. Again, I protest contstantly both as to my own government’s policy and Israel’s–the latter paid for by my tax dollars against my wishes. I agree it is of utmost imortance to tame the barbaric and colonial behaviour of both the USA and Israel. In that sense, I am agreement with the rest of the world, even though I was born in the USA–and on July 4th yet! I do lead by example. My problem is my own government and Israel’s government. I protest them both because of their policies, both domestic, and in foreign affairs–all the time. You can’t say I am unpatriotic because I served in the US military, and I worked my whole life paying taxes since I was 18. And you?

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 7:03 pm

          So, eee: LET’S NOT ASSUME JEWISH INTERESTS ARE US INTERESTS. (NO T TO MENTION THE WORLD’S interests.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 9:03 pm

          Shingo,

          Because we like to do things like the Americans. It seems you have created a new fashion.

          Seriously, I think we have never stooped as low as you Americans have. It looks as if you are the only ones that gut almost dead pregnant women.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 9:14 pm

          Citizen,

          I still don’t get it. Why are you on a site that predominantly BASHES Israel. The US is the world superpower and standard setter, yet you choose to focus on Israel. Why?

          You may think you are patriotic, but if you really were, with your beliefs, you should be in Afghanistan or Iraq doing what B’tselem or Machsom Watch do in Israel, that is monitoring the actions of US soldiers. Tell me Citizens, is there any US NGO that does that specifically? If not, why not? And why should we consider you patriotic if you will not do those basic things?

        • MRW
          April 10, 2010, 9:15 pm

          Eee,

          Seriously, I think we have never stooped as low as you Americans have. It looks as if you are the only ones that gut almost dead pregnant women.

          I’d say this photo of a Gazan baby comes a close second to gutting “almost dead pregnant women.”
          link to gorillasguides.com

          Especially when you use American-made munitions to do it, photo included:
          link to timesonline.co.uk

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 9:20 pm

          Hey, here’s a thought. If you like to do things like the Americans, why don’t you institute a separation of church and state, why don’t you grant full legal equality to all your citizens, and end the law of return? Why don’t you allow for civil marriage ceremonies in Israel?

          Why don’t you grant full citizenship rights to the Palestinians Israel expelled, just like the US ended up granting citizenship rightts to the native Americans? Why don’t you get a Constitution? Why don’t you declare your borders? Why don’t you stop moving your own civilian population into occupied lands? If you want more suggestions, I’ve got lots of them.

        • lyn117
          April 10, 2010, 9:39 pm

          I think about half the Jews in Israel actually came from other parts of the Middle East. That being said, it is all Palestinian native land, both what’s now Israel and the occupied territories. It isn’t, except for a small minority, the Jews’ native land.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 11:15 am

          EEE, right across the chalkboard. I am not personally killing pregnant women or gutting them with knives. My country, the USA is doing so in the Middle East, and it is doing so by Israeli proxy, paid for with my tax dollars. I do all I can to protest both my own country’s hand in this crime, and Israel’s–because
          my country finances Israeli crimes. I am against both the US and Israel modern forms of imperialism and colonizing. I will vote for anyone who says, get our troops out of the Middle East, and quit supporting Israeli hegemony there.

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 11:18 am

          Citizen,

          Are you for or against the US and Mexico being one country? Are you willing to give up your privileges or are you a supremacist?

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 4:30 pm

          Sherbrsi,

          Sometime people need a wake up call. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

      • Richard Witty
        April 10, 2010, 12:51 pm

        Its still a rationalization for collective punishment to motivate others, in the name of opposing collective punishment to motivate others.

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 1:13 pm

          It’s tit for tat I know. That’s how the “war of ideas” works on this website and that’s how the war works on the ground.

          I can’t condemn the blockage of gaza without condemning BSD of Israel and vice versa.

          If I say “end the blockade” without saying “end the bds”! then I am doing myself a disservice .

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 1:15 pm

          Do you despise all collective punishment, Richard Witty? So you think the German genrations should keep paying reparations to Israel for how long? Germany has already gone through a few generations since 1945, or didn’t you notice? And now long do you suggest whites in the USA should keep paying reparations, in one way or another, for what their ancestors did, say up to 1965?
          Another couple hundred years? Be specific. Spell out your thoughts on Obamacare, and on affirmative action. Thanks, we appreciste your honesty.

        • sherbrsi
          April 10, 2010, 1:19 pm

          It’s tit for tat I know. That’s how the “war of ideas” works on this website and that’s how the war works on the ground.

          UNIX,

          I’m sorry you it as an issue of an “eye for an eye.”

          Remember what Gandhi said? “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”

          But I forgot, he was only moral when he was struggling against British colonialists, when he opposed Zionist colonialism he became “incorrect and immoral.” That’s UNIX’s philosophy, for those who haven’t been following his hypocrisy.

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 1:21 pm

          If Ghandi was anything like his Grandson then I wouldn’t touch his advice with a ten foot pole.

          If you think expelling Jews is ok then come out and stay it, don’t be sinister and hide in the shadows. Show who you truly are.

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 1:22 pm

          Nothing can repay what the Germans did. As long as one survivor is left alive they should keep paying and at a very high price.

        • sherbrsi
          April 10, 2010, 1:32 pm

          If Ghandi was anything like his Grandson then I wouldn’t touch his advice with a ten foot pole.

          Dismissing his ideas because of his progeny? I see you’ve already been blinded.

          If you think expelling Jews is ok then come out and stay it, don’t be sinister and hide in the shadows. Show who you truly are.

          Sorry but the one people you will see advocating ethnic cleansing on this site are Zionists such as yourself.

        • sherbrsi
          April 10, 2010, 1:35 pm

          Nothing can repay what the Germans did

          Alright.

          As long as one survivor is left alive they should keep paying and at a very high price.

          Unless it’s money and lots of it?

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 2:44 pm

          No, its not collective punishment. The Berkeley initiate is seeking to stop companies from engaging in immoral and illegal support for the military oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. If I keep selling you baseball bats and you keep using them to hit people over the head with them, then I am not engaging in “collective punishment” to stop selling you baseball bats. I am refusing to be a party to your abuse. Likewise, if you are an alcoholic, my refusal to sell you liquor is not a punishment, but a desire not to contribute to your addiction. Your average Israeli will not be “punished” by a boycott of American companies which

          a) provide military support for or weaponry to support the occupation of the Palestinian territories or b) facilitate the building or maintenance of the illegal wall or the demolition of Palestinian homes, or c) facilitate the building, maintenance, or economic development of illegal Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territories;

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 5:10 pm

          That is exactly what I described tree, that you are attempting to use a coercive means to achieve some change in behavior on the part of an other.

          Again, I find the objectives of the BDS proposal to be reasonable (not the maximalist interpretation). I find the means to be unreasonable.

          To be effective, BDS must have an effect on Israel. If it has an effect, then it is punitive and harmful. If it has no effect, then it is ineffective and only an attempt to punitive and harmful.

          In neither case is it non-violent in intent.

          To be non-violent in intent would be to seek mutual good, the health of the other sincerely, not the harm of the other.

        • Cliff
          April 10, 2010, 5:22 pm

          All activism is coercive. Witty, you compared BDS to the same collective punishment which Gazans endure.

          And Israel has been violating the law since inception. It is a criminal State, just as South Africa.

          This is the kind of pressure which is required, with respect to how quickly the opposition is able to make things like the Gaza massacre, the continued colonization of E. Jerusalem, into ‘history’.

          I’m wondering who you’re talking to, Witty? Your phoniness is transparent.

          You don’t have an argument. What you do have are these equivocations:

          ‘BDS hurts Israel, hence it’s baaaad’

          ‘BDS is like the blockade of Gaza’

          Now to add some context to Dick Witty the Liberal Zionist – you agree w/ the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

          No Zionist should have a say in BDS. You’re the enemy – the kind of Zionist who wants peace w/o justice. You want people to forget Israeli crimes endlessly, while focusing on this context-less ‘peace’.

          No one – NO ONE – is going to fall for that trick.

          We don’t need Zionists on our side. It’s like convincing an inbred religiously fanatic settler like BSD/UNIX or a nationalistic nitwit like eee, or an American Jew w/ a comic book picture of Israel and Jewishness like yonira.

          There is no sincerity in their argument, nor yours.

          As soon as you compare a political protest, a boycott which came after no other method was working and as the living conditions for the VICTIMS has become hell on Earth – to an inhuman blockade against a virtually defenseless population of 1.5m people.

          You’re a monster Witty.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:23 pm

          So, Witty, can we conclude that you are against BDS against any country, whether sponsored by the state or private people? If not, please explain. Thanks.

        • Taxi
          April 10, 2010, 6:55 pm

          Expelling occupiers (whatever religion they may hold dear to her hearts and pockets) is cooooool!

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 7:49 pm

          That is exactly what I described tree, that you are attempting to use a coercive means to achieve some change in behavior on the part of an other.

          No, what I am attempting to do is REFRAIN from participating in the coercive methods of the occupation. Nothing requires me to buy anything from anyone. If I refrain from doing so, I am not collectively punishing anyone, I am making a free market choice. If I buy something or invest in something that supports military violence or the occupation on settlements then I am in essence monetarily supporting that activity, if only in a very small way.

          To insist that I don’t have the moral right to make that choice is in effect your very own form of coercion. However, I will not be so morally obtuse as you have been by making the ludicrous assertion that your coercion of my free choice is just as violent as the Israeli occupation and coercion of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. You should be ashamed of trying to make such a linkage.

          To be non-violent in intent would be to seek mutual good, the health of the other sincerely, not the harm of the other.

          The end of the occupation, and the reform of Israel to be a place with full equality for all, regardless of ethnicity or religion, is for the good and health of Israel. If you want an alcoholic or an addict to get better, you have to stop selling them liquor and drugs, and that is what our monetary support of settlements and military violence are: liquor and drugs. Maybe they won’t get better, maybe they will find other sources for their illicit habits, but at least I have tried, and I am no longer bearing the moral responsibility for supporting and encouraging a life-threatening and destructive habit.

        • RoHa
          April 10, 2010, 8:36 pm

          Collective punishment on the Germans?

          How about
          “Nothing can repay what the Zionists did to the Palestinians. As long as one survivor is left alive they should keep paying and at a very high price”?

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 8:56 pm

          “‘Its still a rationalization for collective punishment to motivate others, in the name of opposing collective punishment to motivate others. “‘

          And you still rationalize the blockade on Gaza Witty.

        • lyn117
          April 10, 2010, 9:51 pm

          If there’s no effective, non-violent means of achieving justice, then we’re left with violent means. Since facts and logic have no effect on you, neither do appeals to equal rights, and you continue to support privilege for non-native Jews over the native people of Palestine, meaning approval of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, and I’m sure you represent the best of Zionism, just what do you propose? It sounds like, you’re happy to offer Palestinians life so long as it isn’t in their native land. You seek “sincerely” seek their “good” by denying them their original home? Denying them employment or life there, but offering them “health” elsewhere?

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 10:38 pm

          “You’re a monster Witty”.

          You are straw-dogging Cliff.

          BDS is aggressive. You illustrate it. You speak in terms of punishing Israel rather than in terms of changing Israel.

          I seek peace, based on mutual viability.

          From your comments, I don’t think that you do.

          My effort is hindered by Israeli expansion, and by Palestinian solidarity political vanity.

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 10:44 pm

          The metaphor of transforming the drunk is a good one. Sadly, the method that you propose Tree, is an inneffective but coercive one.

          It is similar in intent, in creativity, to Israel attempting to transform Hamas by bombing.

          Instead, I suggest that you discipline yourself as an experiment, to one week of intentionally not attacking anyone in any way. The world can live without your expression of contempt for Israel for a week.

          Please try it. Please continue to post, but without condemnation.

          The reason that I suggest that is that I believe that it is more of an addiction for you, that requires some helpful intervention to at least consider if another approach might be more effective, how you personally could be a more effective messenger.

        • tree
          April 11, 2010, 7:31 am

          It is similar in intent, in creativity, to Israel attempting to transform Hamas by bombing.

          No, its not. You say some of the most inane things. Refusing to give an addict drugs is not the same as bombing someone. If you truly thought it was, I’d say that you are the one that needs some intervention, but I doubt that you really believe that. The advice I give about refusing to support womeone else’s habit is the very kind of advice that drug recovery programs recommend for those who have become co-dependent. It is not coercive, nor is it ineffective. It makes the addict solely responsible for his or her own behavior, rather than dependent on someone else to solve his/her addiction.

          Why don’t you try your own advice. You condemn BDS and many of the posters here on a daily basis. If you really thought that you would be a more effective messenger by not doing so, then have at it. Try posting without condemning anyone. Not Hamas, not your fellow posters, not BDS, not Phil. Give it a try, because you’re not in a position now to give any advice on how to be a more effective messenger when no one here of any opinion seems to be swayed by your “message”. And if you can’t even follow your own advice, then surely you can’t expect anyone else to, can you? You really don’t want people to stop condemning others. You just want them to stop condemning Israel. Its probably a co-dependency issue with you.

          If you can’t see you own condemnations, try re-reading you posts here. There’s nary a one that doesn’t condemn someone else, or seek to congratulate your self, or more often both.

        • Richard Witty
          April 11, 2010, 7:43 am

          You think of yourself, of BDS as helpful intervention into an addict’s self-destruction? Or, of intervention so that the addict won’t harm others?

          I think you are lying in that self-definition.

          If your point about BDS is get Israel to change, then we are potential allies in that goal. If your point is something else, then we are not.

          I am hoping to get Hamas to change, to get Israel to change, to get Phil to change (slightly only, from agitant to commenter/mediator), to get radical solidarity to change from regarding a conflict as an oppression to regarding it as a conflict.

          Those are changes, things that are different from the present.

          The tone here is somewhere between seeking that Israel change to that Israel be punished and that Jews grovel for ever supporting Israel.

          Its not tenably liberation of anyone. That activism is pendulum swinging only, exchanging one persecution for another.

          Live and let live is the only theme that is not a pendulum swing, learning how to reconcile, how to mutually respect.

          In your description of me as hypocrite, you might be speaking truth or you might be rationalizing your own denial, your own hunger that you know that you need, even just as an experiment.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 7:55 am

          “You think of yourself, of BDS as helpful intervention into an addict’s self-destruction?”

          Absolutely. If you want an addict to stop killing themselves, do you withhold drugs from them or not?

          “Or, of intervention so that the addict won’t harm others?’

          To stop an addict harming others, you usually lock them away, but no one is suggesting we do that to Israel.

          ”If your point about BDS is get Israel to change, then we are potential allies in that goal.”

          That is the only point. You like to pretend like there is some other neferious motive, but there isn’t.

          “I am hoping to get Hamas to change, to get Israel to change, to get Phil to change (slightly only, from agitant to commenter/mediator), to get radical solidarity to change from regarding a conflict as an oppression to regarding it as a conflict.”

          Phil is a commenter/mediator. You just don’t agree with him, so you label him an agitator.

          Hamas have alrady signalled change. They accepted the agreements Fatah had signed with Israel in 2005, accept a 2 state settlement, called off suicide attacks in 2006, withdrew the destruction of Israel from their manifesto, accept the Arab Peace Initiative and have always held to ceasefires until Israel violated them ( least since 2005).

          What has Israel done? Expand settlements.

          “‘The tone here is somewhere between seeking that Israel change to that Israel be punished and that Jews grovel for ever supporting Israel.”‘

          You keep pretending that Israel has no say in the matter. Israel could stop BDS in a minute if they wanted to, but they dont want to becasue BDS is not significant enough to convince them that change is in their interests.

          “That activism is pendulum swinging only, exchanging one persecution for another.”

          Whatever happens, there is not going to be a quaky clean outcome. That is the consequence of the pedulum being to Israel’s advantage. As with South Africa, reconciliation followed a political settlement. It’s not going to happen before.

          “In your description of me as hypocrite, you might be speaking truth or you might be rationalizing your own denial,”

          Rest assured, I am speaking the truth. Your hypocricy is well established.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 11:25 am

          If a robber or buglar is in the house, that one needs to be expelled.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 11:36 am

          Morgenthau advocated the concept of punishing Germany. The US in the end didn’t buy his proposal to turn Germans into stone age people. Has the world benefited or not from the US government’s denial of the Morgenthau plan? Certainly, Israel has benefitted from endless generations of German reparations (see Finklestein on what Israel has done with these endless reparations). So, Witty, in keeping with your analogous concept of not punishing Israel, but rather changing Israel, do you think the US should attack Israel, defeat it militarily, and then make it a humane nation? Otherwise, it appears that, since the US kicked Lindenberg to the curb in its own macro-self -interest and macro-values, the only question is, why don’t we kick Israel to the same curb?

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 11:58 am

          The metaphor (danke, Mooser) of transforming the ziocaine addict is a good one. Sadly, the method you propose, Dicky Witty, is innefective yet coercive.
          Wittness Witty. It is similar in intent, and in creativity, to transforming Israel by bombing it–or even less idealistic, making Israel actually have to pay for
          its US moneybags backing. Instead, I suggest that Dick Witty et all discipline themselves to one week of intentionally not attacking anyone in any way. The world can live without your expressions of conempt for the US goy masses for a week. Try it. I remain merely a single American trying to be
          a voice for humanism around the world–we do need, as Americans, to watch closely what our government does in our name.

          See Jack Matlock Jr on what’s in the best interests of the USA and the world.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:27 pm

          Witty, have you ever had a conversation with a Palestinian about what it’s like living in Israel, not to mention living in the Israeli OT?

      • eee
        April 10, 2010, 2:23 pm

        The murdering colonial state is the US. Take care of your country first. Then bash Israel.

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 2:26 pm

          Shame on the USA! USA out of Israel!

        • sherbrsi
          April 10, 2010, 3:18 pm

          The murdering colonial state is the Israel. Take care of your country first. Then bash USA.

        • jimby
          April 10, 2010, 4:10 pm

          Lots of shame for all. Hey UNIX, do you claim “Palestine” for the Jews cause G*d gave it to them?

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 4:28 pm

          Sherbrsi,

          Why don’t you follow your own advice? Take care of your country first and then BASH Israel. Why are you not doing that you almost dead pregnant women gutting hypocrite? Couldn’t you at least have made sure the women were dead before gutting them?

        • ahmed
          April 10, 2010, 4:36 pm

          @eee, Does that mean Israel won’t be taking that $3 billion each year in tainted money?

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 4:43 pm

          Ahmed,

          As an Israeli I am for stopping the US monetary aid. We really do not need it anymore and it opens Israel to unwarranted criticism.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 4:51 pm

          So, what are you doing concretely to stop that aid? Are you petitioning your own government to refuse that aid? Do you belong to some Israeli group that campaigns to end that aid? Would you support an American group that campaigns to end that aid? Are you fixing your own home?

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 4:54 pm

          “As an Israeli I am for stopping the US monetary aid. We really do not need it anymore and it opens Israel to unwarranted criticism.”

          Does that mean you still expect the US to veto crticism of Israel at the UN, or are you prepared to ask the US to stop doing that too? What about US loan guranteed for loans you haven’t had to pay back?

          Does it also include forgoing the security guarantee from the US?

          No you don’t need the money, so long as you are prepared to live as a third world country who will now have to negotiate a real peace, rather than hidebehind Americas’s skirt every time you start something you can’t finish.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 5:09 pm

          “So, what are you doing concretely to stop that aid? Are you petitioning your own government to refuse that aid? Do you belong to some Israeli group that campaigns to end that aid? Would you support an American group that campaigns to end that aid? Are you fixing your own home?”

          Exactly, I talk to politicians I know. Haven’t convinced them yet.

          What are you doing about the gutting of almost dead pregnant women by your military except for BASHING Israel?

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:25 pm

          No. Let’s take care of both murdering colonial states simultaneously. There is no other imperative since they are enmeshed–see any reference to “the special relationship” between the USA and Israel–by political leaders form either the US or Israel.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:30 pm

          Great, EEE, please contact your US congress people reps and make known your objection to US annual aid to Israel (not counting indirect aid). Hey,
          with the money we give (only directly, not including indirectly) Israel each yeat, we could pay for one month of the cost of our war on terror. When you consider the war on terror is actually a war for Israeli hegemony in the Middle East, it adds up to a lot more–paid for by all those broke USA rednecks.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 5:36 pm

          The only thing I see you doing here is bashing other commenters. I would be pretty stupid to conclude that it is the ONLY thing you ever do. Why are you so stupid as to conclude this is the only thing that anyone else here does? Seriously.

          Why don’t you organize a group in Israel to end US aid and then you could link up with groups in the US that do the same? Then you would be fixing your house and we would be fixing ours in a mutual way? Is there even such a group there in Israel? And if not, why not?

        • potsherd
          April 10, 2010, 5:37 pm

          eee could come here and make a speech to AIPAC denouncing the US and demanding that Israel cut all ties with such a murderous nation.

        • lyn117
          April 10, 2010, 10:04 pm

          Everywhere else in the media and blogosphere, the Zionists proclaim Israel is the best and only friend the U.S. has in the Middle East, that we’re united against “terrorism,” that we’re joined in the “clash of civilizations,” that there’s no space between us and Israel, that Israeli interests are exactly our interests. Suddenly, when a U.S. crime is uncovered, it’s OK for Israel to commit crimes and we should clean up our own shop. But if there really isn’t any space between us and Israel, aren’t Israel’s crimes ours also?

        • Taxi
          April 10, 2010, 11:52 pm

          You betcha Lynn that Israeli crimes are ours – we pay for them then we ‘fix’ for the bloodstains to disappear from the scene of the crime.

        • Avi
          April 11, 2010, 6:10 am

          Shame on the USA! USA out of Israel!

          Said the US citizen, the parasite with loyalty to a foreign nation.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:01 pm

          Yes, EEE, the US is a murdering colonial state–trying hard to compete with Israel which holds the gold medal in this arena. Thanks for the reminder.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:13 pm

          Yeah, lyn117. EEE keeps pointing out the US should tend its own garden first; he (she?) ignores the constant US government-and US MSM repeated message that there is no space between Israel and the USA. If there is no separation between the zionist garden and the US garden, how nutz is EEE?

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:29 pm

          Yes, it is. And it’s murdering colonial talents extends to Israel, which has been full partner for over 40 years.

    • Citizen
      April 10, 2010, 1:05 pm

      Dick Witty’s comments reveal he loves the current double standards regarding officially accepted sanctions standards–that is, it all depends on whom you are directing them against. He likes the current official villains’ lists.

  8. Shmuel
    April 10, 2010, 2:54 pm

    So what have we here? Eee arguing ad hominem (your arguments may or may not be valid, but you have no right to make them), and Unix/BSD dragging his red herring of ethnic cleansing of Jews from the WB and E. Jlm all over the place. Either way, it spells t-r-o-l-l and I think it’s high time we stopped feeding them.

    • tree
      April 10, 2010, 3:03 pm

      Good point, Shmuel. Glad to see you back commenting. Did your trip go well?

      • Shmuel
        April 10, 2010, 3:37 pm

        Thanks, tree. Trip was rough, but satisfying – mostly on a personal/family level, although I did have some interesting political encounters as well. I’m still trying to figure out whether I am an inside-outer or an outside-inner in Israel.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 3:49 pm

          Glad to hear it was satisfying, especially on the personal level. I’m not sure what the difference is between an inside-outer or an outside-inner. Does it have do do with the personal sense of connection or estrangement? Care to explain at this point?

        • Shmuel
          April 10, 2010, 4:03 pm

          tree: Does it have do do with the personal sense of connection or estrangement? Care to explain at this point?

          Exactly, but I’m still mulling.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 4:08 pm

          Ok, got it. Feel free to share, or not, when and if you wish. On my own personal note, I’m aware that at sometime I will probably have to go to Israel for a discussion with my sister there, but it probably won’t happen until after my mother passes away, as she (my mother, that is) has an overwhelming dread of familial conflict.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:35 pm

          Sorry to hear that, tree. And, Shmuel, it IS good to see you got back ok. You kmow we value your input very highly here on Mondoweiss–same as we do tree’s. God bless both of you. I look forward to your comments. I know I am not alone.

        • potsherd
          April 10, 2010, 5:38 pm

          Can we expect a trip report?

    • eee
      April 10, 2010, 4:29 pm

      My arguments are not ad hominem and I do have the right to make them. You see, the standard on this blog is to point at something that an Israeli did and assume it for all Israelis. I am just following the same protocol.

      • eee
        April 10, 2010, 4:36 pm

        Shmuel,

        My argument is the following: Why would an American spend time BASHING Israel instead of cleaning his own house if wasn’t an Israel hater?

        I am not arguing that two wrongs make a right. I would like to know why you prefer to BASH Israel instead of going the Afghanistan to monitor your barbaric soldiers? I respect what B’tselem and Machsom Watch do. They care about their own society and act accordingly. But why would Americans devote so much time to demonizing Israel when you clearly are not doing half as well as B’tselem and Machsom Watch? Why are you not monitoring YOUR OWN TROOPS to make sure they don’t gut almost dead pregnant women?

        • Shmuel
          April 10, 2010, 5:11 pm

          eee: My argument is the following: Why would an American spend time BASHING Israel instead of cleaning his own house if wasn’t an Israel hater?

          Textbook ad hominem: addressing the motives of the speaker rather than the substance of the argument. (With a little circular logic thrown in for good measure.)

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 5:34 pm

          Shmuel,

          “Textbook ad hominem: addressing the motives of the speaker rather than the substance of the argument. (With a little circular logic thrown in for good measure.)”

          My argument is not:
          1) Shmuel argues that Israel is bad
          2) Shmuel is bad himself
          3) Therefore Israel is good

          That would be an ad-hominem argument.

          My argument is the following:
          1) X is an American
          2) America does bad things
          3) Israel does bad things
          4) X spends most of his time BASHING Israel and not improving America
          5) Therefore X is an Israeli hater

          Nothing ad-hominem about it.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 5:46 pm

          4)X spends most of his time BASHING Israel and not improving America

          You are assuming knowledge that you do not have. However, you yourself have spent much of your time here bashing both other posters and the US. Can we therefore assume that you are a US hater, by your own logic? On a side note, by your logic, is it unacceptable to hate a country? Any country? Or are there special rules for Israel again?

          5) Therefore X is an Israeli hater.

          A logical leap not supported by points one through 3, nor even by 4 which is itself unproven and unknowable by you.

        • eGuard
          April 10, 2010, 5:48 pm

          When I point out a hasbara #4 point, do I need to link to the JSF reference to get the 10 gamepoints, and the extra life? Mooser where aret though.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:50 pm

          Item # 4. How would you know that X spends most of his time Bashing Israel and not improving America? Do you have some special way of following X across the USA in any media as X protests his or her concerns? Mondoweiss is a blog that deals with USA and Israel relationships. Many other blogs are less narrow–do you follow X on all the other blogs that deal with US foreign policy beyond the Middle East, and especially that don’t especially focus on Israel?

          Where do you get the idea that X bashes Israel less than X the USA foreign policy related to Israel?

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 5:51 pm

          That is, that X bashes Israel less than X bashes the USA foreign policy related to Israel?

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 5:58 pm

          “As an Israeli I am for stopping the US monetary aid. We really do not need it anymore and it opens Israel to unwarranted criticism.”

          a. The criticism is warranted
          b. Afghanistan is part of the same cancer as support for Israel. If you’re going to to remove the cancer, you remove all of it.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:00 pm

          I don’t agree with the US regime’s assumptions regarding the “war on terror” and
          I don’t agree with the US war/occupation of Iraq, Aghanistan, Pakistan, or the US black OPS in Iran or Yemen, for example. And I don’t agree with the US general policy of winning hearts and minds at the barrel of a bigger gun–all in the name of “democracy.” So, consistently, I don’t agree with the US rubber-stamping of Israel’s de facto policies regarding the palestinians, nor Israel’s
          de jure policies (never implemented) with any Arab state (or the US, for that matter).

        • Shmuel
          April 10, 2010, 6:06 pm

          Free logic lesson no. 2: petitio principii or begging the question

          Your premise 4 (X spends most of his time BASHING Israel and not improving America) – beyond presuming things you have no way of knowing (“most of his time”, “not improving America”) – makes a subjective judgment, inasmuch as you use the word “bashing” (in capital letters yet), as opposed to a more neutral word such as “criticising”, thereby implying the very proposition you are trying to prove (X is an Israeli hater), because “bashing” means levelling excessive and or unjustified criticism – something one would not do if one did not harbour some particular animus toward the object of that criticism.

          Homework: review lesson no. 1 on the subject of ad hominem arguments

        • MRW
          April 10, 2010, 8:20 pm

          eee,

          Thanks for the laugh. Sincerely. First one of the day.

          My argument is the following:
          1) X is an American
          2) America does bad things
          3) Israel does bad things
          4) X spends most of his time BASHING Israel and not improving America
          5) Therefore X is an Israeli hater

          Sincerely, thank you. No wonder they have to write manuals to help you guys out.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 9:20 pm

          Your argument is the following:
          1) X is an American
          2) America does bad things
          3) Israel does bad things
          4) X spends most of his time BASHING Israel and not improving America
          5) You spends most of your time BASHING America and not improving Israel
          5) Therefore you hate America

          Is that an ad-hominem?

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 9:21 pm

          Shmuel,

          What you say is patently false. A person could be BASHING something just because he was asked to do so, without any animus towards that thing, or because he wanted to give an example of BASHING, or because he was copying machine like a paragraph whose meaning entailed BASHING. You are jumping to a false conclusion when you deduce from BASHING to animus. There is no necessary relation. Therefore, my argument is not circular.

          The homework I would like to leave you with is to contemplate what you are doing on this site

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 9:29 pm

          So, you’re just getting yourself in deeper here, eee.

          If by your own account BASHING doesn’t imply animus, then why do you infer that anyone who, to use your words, “BASHES’ Israel must be an Israel hater? You’ve just managed to widen the gaping hole in your own logic, rather than refute Shmuel.

          What’s Shmuel doing on this site? Providing a much better example of a concerned Israeli than you ever will.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 9:30 pm

          “‘The homework I would like to leave you with is to contemplate what you are doing on this site “‘

          You might want to follow your own advice. All you are doing is conving the world that all Israelis are derranged and insane.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 9:55 pm

          Tree,

          “If by your own account BASHING doesn’t imply animus, then why do you infer that anyone who, to use your words, “BASHES’ Israel must be an Israel hater? You’ve just managed to widen the gaping hole in your own logic, rather than refute Shmuel.”

          Look at line 4 in my argument:
          X spends most of his time BASHING Israel and not improving America

          It is the time spent and the consistent bashing that makes you a hater. If you BASH once or twice, you are not a hater. But if you do so regularly, you are.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 9:59 pm

          “If you BASH once or twice, you are not a hater. But if you do so regularly, you are. ”

          Don’t you justy love the way Israeli propagandisst love making rules up as they go. The reason they can’t come up with a definition of anti Semitism is because they like to keep the definition open and flexible, so that they can adapt it to any situation that suits them.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 10:09 pm

          eee, as I and Shmuel mentioned before, you are in no position to have the knowledge you claim to have. And your very use of the term BASH illustrates your begging the question as Shmuel so rightly pointed out. Logic is not your strong point. I suggest you abandon it as a debating tactic. Its only making you look more foolish.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 10:09 pm

          Shingo,

          You are a liar, my argument was clearly spelled out from the beginning.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 10:17 pm

          No you are the liar eee and you continue to stepo into your own rhetorical traps.

          Like they say, if you lie, you need a good memory, but you’re a liar and sadly, very forgetful.

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 10:21 pm

          nSay bash all you want eee! Never let up! These people want Jewish expulsions, and jewish blood! Never give in

          Israel is our land, let the whiny spoiled USA kids fix their own problems before sticking their priveledge noses in the ME

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 10:27 pm

          Tree,

          You have failed to find any hole in my argument. I answered all your questions specifically. Now you make vague allegations. The bottom line is that you lost.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 10:28 pm

          “These people want Jewish expulsions, and jewish blood”

          Don’t you just love how UNIX raves on about somethign that is never going to happen while Israel is already enacting the final solution for the Palestinians?

          IDF order will enable mass deportation from West Bank
          link to haaretz.com

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 10:31 pm

          oh I get it shingo your beloved IDF will do the dirt work for you . Actually no, instead the PLO will remove arabs from the west bank! If jews can be expelled than arabs can too! Equality!

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 12:22 am

          The PLO epnt need to do it. The IDF are already preparing to do it.

          IDF order will enable mass deportation from West Bank
          link to haaretz.com

          Do you support this ethnic cleansing UNIX. You’d better rush out and buy the new ethnic cleansing t shirts UNIX. You wouldn’t want to miss the party.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 12:24 am

          “oh I get it shingo your beloved IDF will do the dirt work for you”

          No, the IDF would simply be restoring international law and respecting the Geneva Conventions on human rights. That would be a first for Israel. Of course you would hate that, being a terrorist sympathizer and all.

        • tree
          April 11, 2010, 3:18 am

          Do you view this as some kind of child’s game, where you get to declare yourself the “winner”? And what did you
          win”? Did you somehow manage to convince yourself that you agree with your own talking points? Well done, then. Come back when you’ve matured. Why do so many Zionists sound like shallow and obtuse adolescents?

          Just because you refuse to see the holes in your own argument doesn’t mean they don’t exist, anymore than closing your eyes makes you invisible.

        • Avi
          April 11, 2010, 6:14 am

          Israel is our land, let the whiny spoiled USA kids fix their own problems before sticking their priveledge noses in the ME

          You’re talking about American Jews, right?

          Israel is not your land and it never will be. You don’t even speak Hebrew.

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 6:21 am

          “טיעון אַד הוֹמִינֶם (מלטינית, argumentum ad hominem – “טיעון לגופו של אדם”), הוא כשל לוגי שבו משיבים לטיעון או לקביעה באמצעות התייחסות לאדם המציג את הטיעון או את הקביעה, במקום להציג טיעון אחר; או מצב שבו במקום להציג טיעון מצביעים על היעדר עקביות בין ההשקפה המובעת על ידי האדם לבין שאר דעותיו או אמונותיו.” (ויקופדיה)

          איאיאי,
          אין טעם לנהל דיון עם מי שלא מעוניין בדיון. חסרים פה ציונים רציניים שיודעים להציג טיעונים לוגיים מבוססים, לתרום לעומק הדיון, לשכנע ולהשתכנע. אם אתה מסוגל לעשות את זה, ברוך הבא. אם לא, חבל על הזמן שלך ושלנו.

        • Richard Witty
          April 11, 2010, 6:25 am

          “oh I get it shingo your beloved IDF will do the dirt work for you . Actually no, instead the PLO will remove arabs from the west bank! If jews can be expelled than arabs can too! Equality! ”

          Sometimes you say sickening things Unix, in the stated “effort” to make Israel secure.

          You stated to me earlier that your understanding of the reason for an assertive Israeli policy was solely as response to Arab aggressions.

          But, here you are advocating for aggression itself, cruel, in direct violation of repeated and explicit Torah instructions to honor the stranger.

          You can take a breath before responding.

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 6:30 am

          סליחה על השיבוש עקב החלפת הכיוון. את המקור תוכל למצוא בויקיפדיה תחת הערך אד הומינם

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 10:45 am

          Shmuel,

          Haval al ha-metim. Ze atar male sin’a ve-antishemim. Pkach et eineicah. Ani sach ha-kol o’ne ba-tsura she-hacholerot kan onim. Yachas gorer yachas.

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 11:00 am

          הגיון של גן ילדים. אם אתה כל כך בז למשתתפים בפורום הזה, מה אתה עושה פה? סתם “להבניס לאנטישמיים האלה”? ממש פתטי

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 11:07 am

          Ma ata oseh pu im ha’antishemim? Ma ata motzeh meshutaph itam? Ma ra lzet negdam?

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 11:28 am

          מדי פעם מגיע לכאן איזה אנטישמי אמיתי, אבל המשתתפים מיד מטפלים בו, ומנהלי הבלוג כבר העיפו כמה. רוב המשתתפים פה הם אנטי-ציונים כמוני שאינם סובלים גזענות מכל סוג שהוא. יש גם כמה אידיוטים, כמו בכל פורום, אבל זה לא עושה אותם אנטישמים. תפתח קצת את העיניים והראש. אולי תלמד משהו. ההגדרות ה”רשמיות” של אנטישמיות וה”פטור מגזענות” שישראל מעניקה לעצמה אין להם כל קשר עם המציאות. לא כל מה שלימדו אותך בבית, בביה”ס, בצבא, היא אמת צרופה, בלשון המעטה.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:18 pm

          Not to mention that recently US leaders said there is no space between US agenda and Israel’s agenda.

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 12:19 pm

          Potsherd amar be-tsura mephureshet she-hayehudim hem eilo she “corrupted the US congress”. Eich ze lo antishemi?

          Ani rotze sheishpetu et israel be’otam standartim she-shoftim et america. Lama ze lo nachun?

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 12:21 pm

          If you’re going to accuse someone of being an anti-Semite, eee, have the courage to do it to their face.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:24 pm

          Shouldn’t we also compute reality, e.g, the very real comparatively large dose of US money to support Israel with, additionaly, no strings attached?

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:33 pm

          Yeah, let’s keep recycling the old goy thirst for Jewish blood. It’s very modern.

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 12:39 pm

          Sorry about the Hebrew discussion, Chaos and others, but I thought it might be easier to get eee to drop the bullshit and actually engage in discussion. A long shot, but worth a try. At this point, I suggest standard troll-feeding rules.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 12:43 pm

          I don’t mind it, actually, Shmuel. No need to apologize. :) You made an honest effort to reach eee.

      • potsherd
        April 10, 2010, 5:39 pm

        I don’t think eee is sufficiently well-versed in logical argument to understand what an ad hominem argument is.

        As well, of course, as being a liar.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 5:57 pm

          Simple question potsherd,

          When was the last time you were monitoring your troops to make sure they didn’t gut almost dead pregnant women?
          You are on this blog almost everyday bashing Israel. When was the last time you actually monitored your troops? You know, if you monitored them like B’tselem and Machsom Watch do Israeli troops they may improve and make sure the pregnant women are dead before they gut them. But no, it is more important to BASH Israel.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:03 pm

          When was the last time you, eee, monitored IDF troops, to make sure they didin’t gut almost dead pregnant women?

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 9:22 pm

          When was the last time you, eee, monitored IDF troops, to make sure they didin’t gut almost dead pregnant women and weren’t wearing T-Shirts with an image of a pregmant woman with a bullseye that said, Öne Shto, two kill”?

        • potsherd
          April 10, 2010, 9:38 pm

          eee, you forgot to capitalize BASHING. Why don’t you try putting it in boldface, too, like this: BASHING in order to maximize the outrage you expect everyone to feel.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 9:50 pm

          BASHING!!!!!1!

      • Citizen
        April 10, 2010, 5:41 pm

        NO. That’s not true at all. Your arguments have been torn apart in great detail on this blog, in documented comments on the same issues you raise that happened before you first entered onto this blog. You are a kindergarten child entering a college class here. You are not following the substantive protocol commensurate with this blog’s articles or comment threads. Go back to your cartoons. Tell mommy u just need a another kosher candy bar to keep hitting the pc keyboard.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 5:53 pm

          Sore losers. Answer truthfully:
          Do you spend more time on this blog which primarily BASHES Israel, or do you spend your time monitoring your troops making sure they do not gut almost dead pregnant women?

          QED

          You are Israel haters.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:10 pm

          I agree with you that both US military forces, and IDF military forces, have way to much power against the civilian people they are sent to be amidst. I want to get all US troops out of the Middle East ASAP. And I want to abolish all Israeli settlements on native land. And you?

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:13 pm

          I agree that US some soldiers gut pregnant arab women, and I agree that some IDF soldiers do the same. I protest both. Do you?

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 6:15 pm

          Geez, you really are logically challenged.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 6:38 pm

          I spend as much time on blogs criticising US foreign policy as this one, though Israel comes up anyway, seeing as it’s related to US foreign policy.

          Hey ere, do you hate Nazis because of what they did or because they were German?

        • Taxi
          April 10, 2010, 7:03 pm

          Nothing wrong with hating Israel: the place is teeming with colonials from europe who applaude the burning of Palestinian children alive with White Phosphorous.

          No way can I even ‘like’ a country like that – ever.

          Israel disgusts me.

        • MRW
          April 10, 2010, 8:27 pm

          [This is getting to be fun.]

          Sore losers. Answer truthfully:
          Do you spend more time on this blog which primarily BASHES Israel, or do you spend your time monitoring your troops making sure they do not gut almost dead pregnant women?

          QED

          You are Israel haters.

          OK. I’ll bite. We’re all Israel haters. What’s wrong with that?

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 8:43 pm

          MRW,

          Normal people do not hate countries. They do not say things like “that country disgusts me”. Normal people understand that people are the same all over the world. The 7 million Israelis are average people not “colonials from europe who applaude the burning of Palestinian children alive with White Phosphorous”.

          Normal people criticize specific policies of countries. But many here are just irrational hate mongers. Racists and bigots. That is ok, as long as everybody is clear about it.

        • MRW
          April 10, 2010, 8:45 pm

          Do “normal people” hate Arabs?

        • RoHa
          April 10, 2010, 8:46 pm

          Exactly. Israel was evil in conception, evil in creation, and is evil in its conduct.

          To conceive of and intend to create a state run by and for a particular ethnic group is evil. To conceive of establishing and to intend to establish such a state in a territory occupied by other people, and (necessarily) subjugating or expelling them is a greater evil.

          To actually carry out such a plan is a greater evil still.

          And Israel’s continuous evil conduct is a matter of historical record.

          For anyone with a shred of moral understanding, what’s not to hate?

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 9:30 pm

          Israel was created by the international community. Do you hate the UK for letting Jews into Palestine? Do you hate each country that voted for partitioning Palestine? Do you hate the 150 countries or so that have diplomatic relations with Israel?

          Or do you just hate the people born in Israel and have to make the best of the situation they are in? Where does your irrational hate come from?

        • potsherd
          April 10, 2010, 9:35 pm

          But Israel, from the beginning, violated the conditions upon which its recognition was based, making it an illegitimate nation.

        • potsherd
          April 10, 2010, 9:38 pm

          eee is trying to do logic again.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 9:52 pm

          “But Israel, from the beginning, violated the conditions upon which its recognition was based, making it an illegitimate nation.”

          More lies from the antisemite. Israel accepted the partition. The Arabs didn’t.
          Tell me, did the Jews corrupt only the US or also Canada? How about Europe, have we bought and corrupted Europe also? Was it Jewish money that convinced your troops to gut almost dead pregnant women after shooting them?

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 10:03 pm

          eee! These are antisemites. They lack an ounce of empathy towards Jews.

          they jump up and down about phosphorous and children but wouldn’t recognize the name of Tali Hatuel

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 10:22 pm

          “they jump up and down about phosphorous and children but wouldn’t recognize the name of Tali Hatuel”

          Only a vile and racist Zionist would equate the life of one woman and her four children with 400 incinerated children and 300 massacred women in Gaza.

          Obviously tyhis man has no empahty for anyone but Jews.

          I wonder if UNIX wears a Öne Shot, two kills” t-shirt when he goes out to dinner.

        • UNIX
          April 10, 2010, 10:26 pm

          you don’t give a damn about a pregnant woman shot dead at point blank range so don’t talk to me about t shirts. You are not a good person. Have the decency to condemn the close range murder of tali, her fetus and children.

          you lack basic empathy and instead of attempting to show a thread you bringup numbers games and t shirts. Anti semites like you have no morality and you will losethe war of ideas

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 10:40 pm

          Do you know the name of ONE murdered Palestinian, Unix? Why do you demand sympathy that you will not extend yourself? Why do you lack empathy for anyone but Jews? If you think it is acceptable to think the way you do, with a lack of concern for the other, then why do you criticize others for what you perceive as their lack of empathy towards those who are to them “others”? It seems you are upset that people who are not Jews might have just the same lack of empathy toward Jews that you exhibit toward non-Jews. Why? Why is that attitude acceptable for you but not acceptable for others?

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 10:52 pm

          eee.

          You’ve obviously never read the Partition Plan:

          Here are a few segments of it that Israel still refuses to agree to:

          Chapter 2: Religious and Minority Rights

          Freedom of conscience and the free exercise of all forms of worship, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, shall be ensured to all.

          No discrimination of any kind shall be made between the inhabitants on the ground of race, religion, language or sex.

          All persons within the jurisdiction of the State shall be entitled to equal protection of the laws.

          The family law and personal status of the various minorities and their religious interests, including endowments, shall be respected.

          Except as may be required for the maintenance of public order and good government, no measure shall be taken to obstruct or interfere with the enterprise of religious or charitable bodies of all faiths or to discriminate against any representative or member of these bodies on the ground of his religion or nationality.

          …..

          No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State (by a Jew in the Arab State)(4) shall be allowed except for public purposes. In all cases of expropriation full compensation as fixed by the Supreme Court shall be said previous to dispossession.

          Chapter 3: Citizenship, International Conventions and Financial Obligations

          1. Citizenship Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights. Persons over the age of eighteen years may opt, within one year from the date of recognition of independence of the State in which they reside, for citizenship of the other State, providing that no Arab residing in the area of the proposed Arab State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Jewish State and no Jew residing in the proposed Jewish State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Arab State. The exercise of this right of option will be taken to include the wives and children under eighteen years of age of persons so opting.

          Arabs residing in the area of the proposed Jewish State and Jews residing in the area of the proposed Arab State who have signed a notice of intention to opt for citizenship of the other State shall be eligible to vote in the elections to the Constituent Assembly of that State, but not in the elections to the Constituent Assembly of the State in which they reside.

          link to yale.edu

          The Partition Plan explicitly banned all expulsions, confiscations and discrimination based on religion or ethnicity. The pre-state of Israel was engaging in all three, in its own allotted territory and also in the territory allotted to the Arab State well prior to its declaration
          of independence in May, and the start of the war with other Arab nations.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 12:18 am

          “are not a good person. Have the decency to condemn the close range murder of tali, her fetus and children.”

          I do. Sadly, your beloved IDF celebrate this pratice by printing T shirts boasting about their policies of close range murder of women their fetus and children.

          How many t shirts did you buy?

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 2:26 am

          Israel was created by the international community.

          A substantive argument! Setting aside the question of whether the “international community” (i.e. a majority of UN members at the time, with some manipulation by the US and USSR) had the right to sell out the Palestinians, this argument would seem to imply that decisions of the UN and other international bodies (more representative of the “international community” today than they were in 1947) are binding. So why does Israel disregard so many of them?

        • thankgodimatheist
          April 11, 2010, 4:08 am

          Sweden 1975
          Tali Hatuel was a settler living on stolen Palestinian lands. She got a taste of what she had inflicted on the indigenous people of Palestine. It’s called justice.

        • thankgodimatheist
          April 11, 2010, 4:18 am

          I have doubts UNIX is Israeli or Jewish . I might be mistaken but I’d like to see Shmuel, Mooser or Avi asking him something in Hebrew. I have reasonable grounds for suspicions. The guy sounds VERY familiar to me..
          You will be seeing me writing this very often..Sweden1975

        • Tuyzentfloot
          April 11, 2010, 6:08 am

          Wait, let me have a go at it first.
          היא רחפת שלי מלא צלופחים?

        • RoHa
          April 11, 2010, 8:45 am

          Israel was not created by the international community, if by that you mean the U.N.

          (a) The U.N. did not have the right to divide a land without the consnet of the people, and the majority of the population of Palestine did not give that consent.

          (b) The Partition plan was a non-binding proposal, and was never approved by the security council. It was dropped, and the Zionists declared their state while seizing parts of the proposed Palestinian state.

          I certainly condemn the Government of the U.K. for letting Jews into Palestine. If the British had kept their word, and let the Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews of Palestine set up their own state in 1918/19, think how many lives would have been saved from the horrors that Israel has brought upon the region.

          There is nothing irrational about hating an evil creation.

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 8:52 am

          Tuyzentfloot: היא רחפת שלי מלא צלופחים?

          Is this what you meant to say?
          Is she my hovercraft, O one full of eels?

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 10:48 am

          Shmuel,
          Israel only survived because it won the war of its independence. The international community did not follow up on its decision and make sure Israel survived. It left Israel alone to deal with Arab aggression. This will be the same case today.

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 11:03 am

          Got it, eee. International legitimacy only when convenient. Another shining example of honesty and coherence.

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 11:11 am

          Shmuel,

          I am very coherent. International law etc. is only one tool for a country to pursue its interests. First come the country’s interests, then everything else. You see, the Arabs thought that accepting the partition plan was not in their interest and rejected it. I accept this principle. If an international resolution is not in Israel’s interest to follow, then it shouldn’t. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 11:15 am

          First come the country’s interests, then everything else.

          Wasn’t that the driving motivation behind Hitler’s Nazi Germany?

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 11:20 am

          Its actually the driving motivation behind what Walt and Mearseheimer are saying? No?

          And actually, every country in the world.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 11:28 am

          No, actually, it’s not. Read the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

        • Shmuel
          April 11, 2010, 11:58 am

          So was Israel “created by the international community” or not, eee? And why should it matter, if it’s all about interests anyway? You are certainly coherent in your evasion of honest discussion, and your use of whatever ad hoc argument or logical fallacy you (mistakenly) think may win you some points.

          Your Trollie (Troll of the Week Award) is in the mail.

        • eee
          April 11, 2010, 12:23 pm

          Shmuel,

          It really does not matter that Israel was created by the international community because if it wouldn’t have won the war in 1948 there would be no Israel. Or do you deny that? What does it really mean if the international community creates a country and then does not bother to protect it?

          You keep claiming I am avoiding discussion but I am clearly not.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 12:26 pm

          The war was started in 1948 when your grandfather (metaphorically, or perhaps literally) picked up a davidka and started wiping out hundreds of Palestinian villages — many of them outside the Israeli partition. The rest of the world didn’t even get involved until you terrorist ancestors started their crime spree.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:37 pm

          If Israel was created by the international community, than why does Israel ignore and diss that same comminity today? Just asking.

        • yonira
          April 11, 2010, 7:18 pm

          thats the crappy part, there are millions of native born Israelis who were simply have grandparents and great-grand parents who wanted to not be persecuted.

          There needs to be a better solution than the current one, but taking a state from a group of native born people who know nothing else is ludicrous. Will this rectify the problem? how is it different than what happened to the Palestinians?

        • Tuyzentfloot
          April 12, 2010, 2:43 pm

          Hovercraft? Eels? Either you have a very dirty mind or someone must have slipped you a faulty dictionary.
          (That makes me think of it – I suppose there are very few translators ignorant of this sketch – but I’m just guessing)

        • Shmuel
          April 12, 2010, 3:05 pm

          I translate ‘em as I see ‘em, Tuyzentfloot. Please enlighten me.

        • Tuyzentfloot
          April 13, 2010, 3:45 am

          okay, I see I have no choice. The question at hand was if writing in Hebrew was any indication of whether a person was Israeli. Reading in Hebrew is not a problem, since google translate is available for that. After some thought on how people can fake knowledge of hebrew and how they can be unmasked I decided it was possible to even make a joke in Hebrew – a self referential one: about someone acting as if he knows Hebrew but doesn’t know he got himself a fake dictionary.

          The necessary background is the Monty Python “dirty hungarian phrasebook” sketch (here: link to youtube.com ) and if you google ‘eels’ and ‘hovercraft’ almost all the links will be about that sketch.

          It’s as simple as that.

        • Shmuel
          April 13, 2010, 4:11 am

          Thanks. Considering the fact that it was a challenge to an uncooperative troll, on a now dead thread, I think it was safe to explain.

          As a translator and an MP fan (hell, we even have silly-walk competitions at my house), I am thoroughly ashamed of myself.

  9. VR
    April 10, 2010, 4:14 pm

    I was outside a few minutes ago, and there are these flowers all around my place that are sort of thrashed, bees try to find their coveted pollen but there is none to had as they furiously fly about trying to gather. It reminds me of all these various groups of Zionists mentioned in the post and the links, they try to, like the bees gather this pollen of good will everywhere which is almost absent, so they can bring it back to the hive – but there is no victories to be had for these bee-like Zionists.

    Of course, the analogy is imperfect and somewhat insulting. Sort of a denigration of the noble bee, that has done nothing but good in the cycle of nature – comparing them to Zionists is unfair. However no analogy is perfect, whereas the plight of the bees brings me concern, I feel nothing but disdain for corrupt Zionist activity.

    • sherbrsi
      April 10, 2010, 4:33 pm

      VR,

      What do you make of J Street, so propped up as a the voice of change in American-Israeli politics (by themselves and here at this site), now heading this coalition of the oppose criminal accountability?

      • VR
        April 10, 2010, 5:00 pm

        J Street is Zionism left, I have said it before and I will probably say it again. It is like the “difference” between democrat and republican in the USA, or the supposed distinction of “left and right” while headed in the same direction. Some say J Street must make these “compromises” to gain steam and eventually oppose AIPAC, but they turn slowly into AIPAC – AIPAC is the man in the three piece suit, J Street is merely a change of clothing on the same man.

        • Richard Witty
          April 10, 2010, 5:15 pm

          I promise you Gore would have led a better US than Bush jr.

          And that Nader would have made a horrible president, likely leading to more wars than even Bush (and that is stretching).

          Democrat vs republican, liberal democrat vs conservative democrat, compassionate democrat vs ideological makes a big difference.

          Tweedle dum- tweedle dee is for those that take no responsibility in the world, no complexities.

        • Citizen
          April 10, 2010, 6:27 pm

          Nader, as a single human being, has done more than anyone in the US to help all Americans, regardless of their soci0-economic class or ethnic or religious status. The only difference between Gore and Bush2 would have been which one wet stains more under the armpits the old standard ivy league blue button down shirt.

        • Chaos4700
          April 11, 2010, 1:22 am

          And that Nader would have made a horrible president, likely leading to more wars than even Bush (and that is stretching).

          Yeah, sure Witty, because the very first thing one of the most vocal anti-war activists in the US would do is declare a whole bunch of wars.

          Dumbass.

  10. ruth
    April 10, 2010, 5:44 pm

    The Berkeley initiate is seeking to stop companies from engaging in immoral and illegal support for the military oppression and occupation of the Palestinians

    You know very well that it is all just grand gesture politics. Losing a few pensions shares won’t hurt the big companies and won’t stop them either from doing business with Israel, China , Iran or whoever they want. We are in a globalised world, these companies are multinationals, and money trumps ethics. Pensions funds will continue to invest in companies that make money.
    This is just another PR move from the anti Israel lobby to try to make the BDS movement sound more important than it really is. Every consumer boycott has failed. They have been trying very hard but have scored few real victories. The latest Code Pink initiative in Montreal to stop some stores from selling AHAVA products was an unmitigated disaster. Hundreds answered the call from the “Buycott” movement to hit the stores and every beauty product was sold out. Tickets for Israeli films were sold out at the TIFF. The Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit was sold out. Every move is countered. Hey, everything is fair in love and war, so these Jewish groups are doing what they have to do!
    I have never bought Israeli products before, now I make a point of buying BAMBA and distributing it to friends family and coworkers. I introduced a few people to the delight of Israeli peanut snacks and created more consumers for the entity. Yeah! This call for divestment is all sound and fury and won’t amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day. The university does not have to listen to the students.
    A union here in Toronto passed a boycott resolution agaisnt Israel. It means fuck all in practical terms cause they can’t stop workers from fraternizing with Israelis. All it did was generate a lot of ink in the press and furious letters to the editors. What does a union in Canada have to do with Israel? Nothing. That union operates in my work place and the workers never discussed, cared about, or had any input in that decision. It was just the delegates voting for what the big union boss wanted. He is an ex. SWP attuned to British stalinist politics and trying to import diviseness into Canada. Just think how many trees had to die for his hubris. Union workers care only about benefits and working conditions. Heck , most of them are even anti union philosphically but as long as they get the cushy jobs they are all for it.
    These initiatives are only successful in so far as they create animosity and bad feelings among different groups here. They have ZERO impact on Israel.

    • Shingo
      April 10, 2010, 9:24 pm

      Ruth,

      If BDS wasnt so important, you wouldn’t spend so much time’making such an issue of how unimportant it is.

    • Citizen
      April 11, 2010, 12:40 pm

      Well, let’s hope, as more and more Americans get informed, that Israel will be impacted by its actual criminal deeds.

  11. ruth
    April 10, 2010, 6:13 pm

    eee,
    Not just haters. More than that, but only their shrinks know for sure. For instance, this guy Parker always calls Israel a shitty little country. Why would anyone spend so much time thinking , discussing, writing and posting about something shitty? Anal fixation? Freud, help me out here. Doesn’t he run the risk of smelling like poo after so much vicarious contact with that shitty little LEVANTINE country?
    I think many countries are in the crapper and consquently I don’t think, don’t talk, and don’t care about them. He lives in the Phillipines too. He is already so close to so much crap. He does not need to waste a minute of his life dealing with more Israeli fecal matter.

    Yikes, I feel soiled already.

    • Citizen
      April 10, 2010, 6:36 pm

      Thanks, Ruth, it’s good to know that you equate economic and military power with actual equity and justice. Makes all of us feel better. Of course, Ruth, you recall that Goering thought the same, nicht wahr?

    • Taxi
      April 10, 2010, 7:17 pm

      The person who uses the word ‘shit’ most on this site is yonira.

      We already went through this discussion several weeks ago and after a blow by blow count, turns out yonira uses the word the most and so he/she got first place prize.

      But let me help you out here ruth: Richard Parker shares his hands-on experiences with the region and I think his contributions are valid as he doesn’t live in the bunker-bubble that most Israeli live in.

      Also, all he’s doing is borrowing a famous phrase from:
      ‘DANIEL BERNARD, the French ambassador to Britain in 2002, who dared to utter the remark at a party hosted by newspaper publisher Conrad Black. He called Israel a “shitty little country” and then asked, “Why should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?”

      Yes he was smeared as an anti-shamnti by the Israel and by us here in the US. Yet no one else in the world called him that. Funny that, isn’t it?

      • Citizen
        April 11, 2010, 12:43 pm

        No question that the Samson Option held by Nuke Israel is a very real thing to fight.

    • eee
      April 10, 2010, 8:47 pm

      Ruth,

      It is worse that I imagined. Potsherd posted the following comment on the neocon thread:

      “You see, eee, it’s like this: our own corrupt government is the force enabling the corrupt Israeli government. This makes the US an acessory to Israeli crimes, because our congress is bought out by right-wing Jewish billionaires.”

      The Jews, you see, are corrupting the US congress. Ruth, we are dealing here with hard core antisemites. The Aryan brotherhood perhaps?

      Avi and Shmuel, you are in great company. Just look what you are supporting.

      • tree
        April 10, 2010, 8:59 pm

        It even worse than that, ruth!

        Listen to this:

        The neo-cons have Petreus exactly where they want to. It seems that he is a Republican and wants to run for office when he retires. Now, they can apply the squeeze and let’s see what he does. He will have to over compensate by becoming the best friend Israel ever had if he wants a political career. Petreus miscalculated and the nec-cons will take advantage of it.

        Sounds like a hard-core anti-semite, doesn’t it? Oops, its only eee mouthing off while bashing others for saying the same thing he does.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 9:58 pm

          Tree,

          There is nothing antisemitc or racist about what I wrote. There were no Jews mentioned either unless you equate neo-cons with Jews in your racist mind.

        • Shingo
          April 10, 2010, 10:08 pm

          “”He will have to over compensate by becoming the best friend Israel ever had if he wants a political career”

          Don’t you just love how these Zionist shills contradict themselves? In another post, eee was outragesd that anyone would suggest the Israeli lobby had power over Congress and Washington, and now he openly boasts about how Patreaus will have to suck up to Israel if he wants a political career.

          eee sets a trap and then steps right into it.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 10:28 pm

          I was merely making fun of ruth and you, for implying anti-semitism when someone refers to the Israel Lobby. Turn-about is fair play, right?

          I did not mention Jews . But both you and I referred to Israel and your belief that Petraeus has has to suck up to Israel in order to get elected. I don’t equate neo-cons with Jews, I equate neo-cons with the Israel Lobby, which is has both Jewish and non-Jewish participants, many of them neo-cons. Apparently you likewise equate neo-cons with the Israel Lobby, otherwise you would not have said what you did about the neo-cons having Petraeus right where they want him, and thus Petraeus being forced to suck up to Israel. If you are going to start flinging around the word “racist” then be sure to apply it to yourself too, for consistency’s sake. Or better yet, go shove it with your “one rule for me, and another for you” attitude.

      • potsherd
        April 10, 2010, 9:13 pm

        eee is Shocked! Shocked! to learn that right-wing Jewish billionaires are corrupting the US Congress.

        He must have spent the last 60 years wrapped in cotton inside a time capsule, pure and unsullied by the sins of the world.

        • eee
          April 10, 2010, 10:00 pm

          Wow! Blatant antisemitism. Congratulation Shmuel, Avi and Danna on your friends.

          I can’t believe there are people like you left in America. It is a dangerous place for the Jews.

        • tree
          April 10, 2010, 10:31 pm

          Funny, cuz Shmuel, Avi, and Danaa are all Israelis, or former Israelis. Apparently they find being outside Israel more to their liking than being inside. Wrap you head around that one.

        • Citizen
          April 11, 2010, 12:57 pm

          Yeah, EEE, every day Dick Witty wakes up he has to peer out his window blind slats because there’s so many anti-semites out there, just looking for a way
          to murder him in his bed.

      • Taxi
        April 10, 2010, 11:57 pm

        I really doubt the eeeeeeee is a semite.

        More like a white skinned khazar who’s confused about his/her origins.

        p.s. hey eeeeeee, have you noticed how no one listens to you when you throw the anti-shemite label at them? That it means nothing coming from hebron funders like you?

      • Citizen
        April 11, 2010, 12:49 pm

        Ruth and EEE, there is no question that the US campaign finance laws need to be changed, and nothing illustrates this more than AIPAC et all, who make all US congressmen and women go through an Israeli loyalty test before they get any Jewish moneybags, in favor of or against, depending on the goy candidates’ will to support Israel right or wrong. The only loyalty test ever given to any US candidate for political office is one that requires loyalty to Israel, right or wrong. Absurd? yes. Real? yes.

      • Citizen
        April 11, 2010, 12:55 pm

        EEE & ruth–maybe you should actually read M & W Israel Lobby And know that two-thirds of all Democratic funds come from Jewish Americans, and a third of all Republican funds (which unite with Christian Zionists funds and votes). All this in context that Jewish Americans are hardly 2% of all Americans. You want everyone here to ignore this?

  12. ruth
    April 10, 2010, 6:53 pm

    , nicht wahr?
    Am I supposed to know German? Not enough for you that I speak English, sort of.

    Goering thought the same
    I don`t do nazis. You on the other hand are fond of quoting them.

    you equate economic and military power with actual equity and justice.
    Is this called inference? You are not even at the first level of Bloom’s Taxonomy.

    • Citizen
      April 11, 2010, 1:05 pm

      And you are at the bottom level of Maslow’s pyramid. If you had been on this blog for a decent stretch, you’d have seen that the German language is very rarely shown, but Yiddish is, and, most recently Hebrew. I am not fond of quoting Nazis–except when
      what they say mirrors Zionist sayings. (You have to switch who’s the superior people).
      Please explain why you think I “equate economic and military power with actual equity and justice.” Thanks. Many here are looking forward to your insight.

  13. ruth
    April 10, 2010, 7:59 pm

    Hello? I know exactly who Daniel Bernard is /was and the context of that remark. I am just as obssessed as you about the I/P situation ( Except I have no idea why you are but that’s another story). I remember the shitstorm EVERYWHERE. That’s why he was reassigned to Algeria, not exactly a smelling like roses country. That ‘s 8 years ago though. Cliff was probably 12 years old! And it still does not warrant Parker’s shit on the brain usage of that quote.

    • Taxi
      April 10, 2010, 8:33 pm

      Hello sunshine. Echoes back to you ruth.

      If Daniel Bernard is an anti-shmanti, he would have lost his job as a diplomat, dear, full stop. But he didn’t. He got relocated cause that’s what happens to diplomats when they speak the ugly truth out loud. I got news for you: most people around the world thoroughly enjoyed his phrase, as indeed they still do – jet-setting Richard here being a fair example of one.

      “I am just as obssessed as you about the I/P situation ( Except I have no idea why you are but that’s another story). ”

      Would you have even posed this question to an American who wanted to help the resistence in 1942?

      Why is it so hard for zionists to understand that one can live thousands of miles from a massacre yet have the ability to feel empathy for its victims?

      I’ll answer the question if I may: Narrow-minded Tribalism as world view.

      • Citizen
        April 11, 2010, 1:13 pm

        If ruth was logical, she would have wondered why any Americans, say in 1938, spoke up against Germany. Wasn’t that, after all, an internal German decision? Actually, as many of you know, ruth’s declared philosophy was approved back in those days–by the German-American Bund. Geez, imagine if ruth stuck to her declared principles–she’d have to write a novel opposing Phil Roth’s novel attacking Lindberg and his followers.

  14. southernobserver
    April 10, 2010, 8:32 pm

    Messieurs, Mesdames,
    Come, come, more heat less light. I agree with nearly all the points made in this discussion, by both sides; this is all well known. Economically, boycotts of a whole country essentially never ‘work’. Gaza is being subject to a formal medieval style, cruel and in my considered opinion, actually evil seige, and yet shows no sign of surrendering. And yet, this doesn’t mean that BSD is futile. To my frank surprise at the time, BSD did influence the outcome of South Africa. It turned out in retrospect that the sporting boycotts that we all despised, and indeed are still anathema downunder were the single biggest factor. The goal of BSD is not to kill thousands of people, unlike say the collective punishment of Gaza, but rather merely symbolically says, we can’t be friends while you are doing this. It worked on my 5 year olds; it might work on the inheritors of the SA tradition.

    It is important to cut to the bottomline. Mr Larry Derfner’s conclusion is that current government will never compromise without something like this:
    link to realclearworld.com

    “Forget it. Bibi is not the man for that job.

    So what’s his strategy? How does he plan to hold off Barack Obama and his international allies? By playing for time, I guess. By trying to outmaneuver the White House until his allies, the Republicans, can maybe cut the president down to size in the November elections. I figure Netanyahu’s strategy is to stall and hope for something to break his way, seeing as how his predicament with America and the rest of the world can hardly get worse.

    So let’s see – if Netanyahu isn’t about to lead the country through fire and water to a new future, is there another Israeli leader who can? No there isn’t. Not now, anyway. What’s required of Israel in the two-state solution goes far, far beyond Menachem Begin’s return of the Sinai to Egypt, or Yitzhak Rabin’s recognition of the PLO, or Ariel Sharon’s pullout from Gaza – and there is no Israeli leader today who comes anywhere near Begin, Rabin or Sharon. Leadership today lies in the hands of the Right, spearheaded by the settler movement. Mainstream Israelis don’t want a battle royal with those people; they much prefer the status quo.

    Only when the status quo becomes intolerable, when continuing the occupation arouses even more dread than the prospect of dividing the land and taking on the settlers, will Israelis be ready to free the Palestinians. And at that point, we won’t need a Begin, Rabin or Sharon for prime minister, we’ll just need a competent, respected executive to carry out the public’s will.”

  15. ruth
    April 10, 2010, 8:55 pm

    Would you have even posed this question to an American who wanted to help the resistence in 1942?

    You mean the mythic resistance de la France? More collabo per square metre than any other country?

    Why is it so hard for zionists to understand that one can live thousands of miles from a massacre yet have the ability to feel empathy for its victims?
    You wept for Rwanda, did you?

    I’ll answer the question if I may: Narrow-minded Tribalism as world view.

    Hmmm. Canada happens to be my 5th country of residence. How about you?

    • Taxi
      April 11, 2010, 12:15 am

      Let’s try again ruth – this time I’ll ask the same question slower, and please try and focus this time:
      Would you have even posed this question to an American who wanted to help the resistence in 1942? A yes or no answer would suffice: a smartass non-answer will indeed mean ‘No’.

      I still am upset about Rowanda – have you read the massive rape report collected by Amnesty? I doubt it so just STFU on this front.

      “Canada happens to be my 5th country of residence. How about you?”
      You think ‘Universalism’ is dictated by how many countries you’ve resided in, fool?

      Seriously, a 5th grader can trip up your smarts.

      You really are a silly billy.

    • Citizen
      April 11, 2010, 1:21 pm

      Those survivor of the French Resistence and their families really appreciate you, ruth. Interesting how you hop to sequential countries for residence. It sure shows your love of each country you hop to, hence your love of their respective peoples. Keep teaching us about morality and ethics. Thanks.

  16. syvanen
    April 10, 2010, 9:04 pm

    A new story on the ongoing transfer of Palestinians from the WB:

    link to haaretz.com

    Amira Hess is describing what eee and unix must be rejoicing over. Also noted the one ColinWright commented there– now where did I hear that name before.

    • Shingo
      April 10, 2010, 9:26 pm

      “Amira Hess is describing what eee and unix must be rejoicing over”

      This is what eee and uni describe as vile and digusting policy if it were to apply to Jews, but like Witty, they have no problem seeing it applied to Arabs.

    • Taxi
      April 10, 2010, 10:23 pm

      Colin gets about much – I like that about him.

      As for that depicable ‘new law’ – enforcing it before the wide eyes of the world is gonna speed up the eventual dismantlement of the jewish Jim Crow state faster than you can say ‘Hebron fund’.

    • Shmuel
      April 11, 2010, 3:04 am

      Considering Israel’s brutal siege, deportation to Gaza, in itself, should be considered a violation of basic human rights.

      The new provision also allow the IDF commander in the area to require that the infiltrator pay for the cost of his own detention, custody and expulsion, up to a total of NIS 7,500.

      By order of the supreme council of the city of Sodom.

  17. southernobserver
    April 10, 2010, 10:07 pm

    Thanks syvanen. Even if you were born on the westbank, you can be ‘illegal’. The part that I hope the PA notes, is that these rules apply even in the tiny fragment of the west bank that Israel agreed would be administered by the PA. This means that 100% of the west bank is considered to be under the jurisdiction of Israel.

    The one state solution exists today, in the opinion of the government of Israel.

  18. ruth
    April 10, 2010, 10:34 pm

    eee,
    Re your post on Israel haters.

    You don’t want to waste your energies debating most posters here. Why bother? a few write thoughful posts even if from an anti-zionist POV and that’s OK with me. I respect where they are coming from. We all know every society has its flaws and I have no problem with people criticizing current or past Israeli policies. However others are bullies and boors who have made up their minds long time ago. Nothing you will write is going to change that. Some posters are truly malevolent characters. Those are the David Dukes types hiding behind antizionism. Their hatred corrodes their soul. And hopefully the internet gives them an outlet for their rage. As long it is all talk……and no action, let them vent. Read some previous entries from a few months ago and you will know who you should ignore and who you can engage. Many posters here have honed their talking points over many years at anti-zionists blogs and they are constantly renewing them. They are dissemblers and shallow thinkers who have all sorts of links and quotes at their fingertips and yet have no clue about the middle east and its realities. They are the true hasbarists. I have heard it all at Comment is Free and other blogs. So it does not bother me as long as they don’t come after me!
    Then there are the human rights and justice mafia. And you know how mafiosis operate. They gang up on people and drive them away. Post your opinion on whatever Phil writes and leave it at that. That ‘s what Julian does. Better yet, have fun with the place and don’t get upset. For many here, Israelis and “Zionists” are grotesque cartoonish figures with mythical abilities for evil. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL, THEY WILL CONCEDE A POINT TO YOU. ISRAEL IS ALWAYS WRONG! AWAYS! AND YOU ARE A HASBARATROLL PAID BY MOSSAD IF YOU SAY OTHERWISE.

    Hope this helps!

    • Taxi
      April 11, 2010, 12:21 am

      The hebron appreciation society is patting itself on the back.

      Reminds me of the book they wrote about themselves, promoting themselves above everyone else in the eyes of a god they invented.

      If ever there was a dark swindle, THIS IS IT.

      • Chaos4700
        April 11, 2010, 1:37 am

        I find it amusing that all these frothing-at-the-mouth Zionist Israelis come trouncing in, all at the same time, and what’s the impression they make?

        A) Name-calling: “You’re a liar!” “You’re an anti-Semite!” “You’re a traitor to the Jewish race!” “America is a mafia state!”

        B) Outright lies: “The West Bank belongs to Jews and Jews alone!” “The Arabs started all the wars!” “Palestinians never pass up an opportunity to pass up an opportunity!” “That land didn’t belong to anyone until Israel was founded!”

        C) Constantly citing the Elder Protocols of Zion. Seriously, nobody would even know that book exists if it weren’t for Israelis making themselves walking book reviews for it.

        I, for one, am happy they’ve shown up, especially all at once. Jewish Americans need to see what they’re missing. They need to see what’s being done with their money, and in their name.

        • Shingo
          April 11, 2010, 3:34 am

          Chaos,

          You left out d) Insisting that crirics of Israel want to see Israel destroyed.

    • Shingo
      April 11, 2010, 3:05 am

      I do love how Ruth keeps tryign to convince everyone and herself that this blog doesn’t matter, and uses 300-400 words to explain why.

      Maybe she’s using Bush’s mantra of repeating the propaganda until it sinks in. At this point, it seems to be entirely for her own benfit.

    • Shingo
      April 11, 2010, 6:59 am

      “. However others are bullies and boors who have made up their minds long time ago. Nothing you will write is going to change that.”‘

      That’s because:

      a) what eee has to say are almost entirely debunked Hasbara talking points
      b) we’ve heard them all before and debunked them

      If you hear a lie over and over again, it doesn’t become true and any rational person will not change his ming based on how many times a lie is repeated.

      Simple.

    • Citizen
      April 11, 2010, 1:27 pm

      “The human rights and justice mafia.”
      Now that’s some pizza!

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