Here is an important exchange. Recently Jerry Muller, a Jewish professor of history at the Catholic University in D.C., published a splendid book called Capitalism and the Jews. Muller argues that Jews are great at commerce because of cultural training, family habits and dedication to texts, as well as from the tradition of filling a marginalized role in Europe, as usurers. Then capitalism became the defining order of European society in the 19th century, Muller says, and nationalism rose hand in hand with capitalism, because capitalism required literacy and education and nations could provide the structure for such development; and Jews became elevated within those nations as the professionals, and anti-Semitism was the response of people who lost status or who were in competition with Jews. It is a vital argument because it understands anti-Semitism as a real if hateful response to real sociological shifts, including the role of Jews as intermediaries between landowners and peasants in Eastern Europe (a hobbyhorse of mine) and follows along in the work of Yuri Slezkine, The Jewish Century, and Albert Lindemann--Esau’s Tears, which also “explained” anti-Semitism in terms of the rise of the Jews.
Now what is the exchange I began by referring to? At Amazon, the book was reviewed positively by Ira Stoll, the neoconservative former editor of the New York Sun. (I think this is the sage who said that those of us who demonstrated against the Iraq war in February 2003 should be investigated for “treason.”) But Stoll takes exception to some of Muller's analysis:
Mr. Muller gets out onto the thinnest ice when he blames Jewish involvement in revolutionary activity and communism for inflaming European anti-Semitism. Sometimes, he frames this claim cautiously: "To be sure, in much of eastern Europe anti-Semitism long antedated the Bolshevik Revolution, and would have been a substantial factor in interwar politics even without the prominence of Jews in the Communist movement."
Other times he is more assertive: "In Germany, where political anti-Semitism had been on the wane before 1914, the role of the Jews in the postwar revolutions was the key element in the revival of anti-Semitism on the right."
That the Jews were being denounced as greedy capitalists at just the same time as they were being denounced as dangerous Communists suggests to me that the denunciations were, at bottom, more about hating Jews than about hating either capitalists or communists.
I.e., they hate us because we are who we are, they hate us no matter what we do. When actually Muller shows that Jews were drawn both to capitalism and anti-capitalism, and that revolutionary ideology clearly played a role in the Nazi stigmatization of Jews in the 30s. But no, any theory that seeks to associate anti-Jewish hatred and crime with an actual grievance must be expunged.
This is in the end a war over Jewish identity right now. If nothing we do has anything to do with the resentment against us, we can continue to run the Israel lobby in American foreign affairs and colonize and ethnically-cleanse Palestinian lands and, when Obama demurs, insist on having out the disagreement behind closed doors, because the goyim will hate us anyway and the lobby is the only power we have.
But if we actually have an effect on our own reputation we can be mindful of our presence in a multicultural world. And I would state, as Muller does historically, that we have tended to be a privileged group. He says that the Jewish response to that privileged status has been revolutionary anti-capitalist fervor (Marx and Emma Goldman) and even American Jewish liberalism-- borne of guilt, he says, and providing an ersatz form of religious identity. I quarrel with Muller there. I sense that he is religious. But why is a spirited liberal political engagement out of a sense of guilt, or awareness of entitlement, ersatz, any more than studying ancient scripture and commentary that have little real bearing on our actual lives is ersatz? It’s a judgment on his part, and a bad one. In the next few days I am going to celebrate Muller’s historical achievement here, but also show how his book stops abruptly short of any present-day analysis.
How much was German anti-Semitism after World War 1 caused by the perception that Jewish bankers had funded the Anglo-French war effort when it was in danger of running out of cash? “Losing” WW1 was a big shock to the Germans. It worries me that eventually backing the Israelis through thick and thin might result in as big a loss for America so that the Americans turn to overt anti-Semitism and worse. For its own sake and for the sake of Jews everywhere it would be better for Israel to come to an equitable settlement with the Palestinians that is true to the original Arab peace offer.
If anti-semitism ever takes hold in America it will be connected to financial shenanigans and widespread pillaging of nations by major hedge funds, not because of the Palestinians.
Get it from the horse’s mouth; listen to “Mr Gold” very carefully:
link to kingworldnews.com
in politics perception often trumps reality and politics is, by extension, the mood of the people … so at various points in history jews have been perceived as a negative upon a particular society and given that they’ve been around nearly 6000 years they simply cannot be completely blameless in all circumstances
the history of the jews is a mish-mash, depending upon where, what century and what circumstances – in some cases they were truly victimized and in others they played the pivotal role in creating the forces that led to their victimization (competition for power and resources is natural in the natural world) … i like to refer to the example of a battered spouse: if you don’t simply leave and end the relationship after the first beating you are complicit in the next … if jews have been victimized again and again over history (any more than any other ethnic group?) then they share some responsibility for it – not fair, it sounds terrible, but it’s the truth
“if you don’t simply leave and end the relationship after the first beating you are complicit in the next … “
That’s what I told my wife, that she should have left after the first beating, but she continues to wallop my ass all over the house. But you know, she’s a woman, they enjoy it.
Gee, sometimes I bet it’s pretty hard to decide to leave after the first beating; sometimes at first it’s just a slight slap, the next, etc; and there other thing to consider–sometimes people are in a pretty dependent position in an aggregate of ways…
Well, I’m not leaving until we’ve eaten those other three pork roasts.
Perhaps the most influential publication during the War was Lenin’s ‘Imperialism’ which blamed the war on capitalist machinations. That argument – maybe it was more rhetoric than argument – could easily be read in an anti-Jewish sense. So there was a certain commonality between extremes.
And you can see that many ordinary people, not only in Germany, were ready to be drawn to an anti-Jewish interpretation of things from ‘The 39 Steps’, where one of the characters (not, I think, speaking for the author) is very much into Jewish plots. This aspect of Buchan’s novel, the most important fiction of the early War years, has never made it into any of the many film versions.
On the other hand people really knew the truth, that the Jews of every nation had rallied to the national banner. I think, subject to correction, that even Hitler had, presumably because Jewish sacrifice was known, to exempt from some of his earlier anti-Jewish enactments those Jews who had fought for Germany in WW1, which would have included his own commanding officer, the source of his recommendation for Iron Cross Class I.
So it wasn’t – it was inconceivable that it could have been – true that the actual behaviour of Jews made no difference to their reputation, even if the true record could be clouded by hostile propaganda.
“And I would state, as Muller does historically, that we have tended to be a privileged group.”
What you mean-um “we”, Paleface? Maybe you smart, rich Jews were a “privileged” group, but for us poor, dumb Jews it’s another story.
mark gissin (spelling not right I am sure) has spelled it out while speaking on the empire talk show, ” His father came to Palestine with a bible in his hand amd a rifle in the other from russia. So what part of his cultured raising was to kill people and steal their land. He is a prime example of why a stimatism has followed jews everywhere. They believe in a bunch of lies that are taught to them from an early age. murder and land stealing over a lie written by the scribes themselves. Deprogram and reabilitation is needed for all. Especially after finding the facts in recent years from tel aviv and sandiego that are infiltrating the cyberspace for purposes completely unkosher. Just as in the 911 video taping by jewish israelis whom were celebrating the towers being hit while this happened, not to mention the israeli moving company that had explosives in moving trucks, and one that had them was emptied. Funny, I think not. So it is not because of the made up conspiracies, BUT FACTS, which include them in some very bad things against the country which helped and still does with Billions each year. Does anyone really expect them to be liked or put up with, do you really believe they are just picked out for no reasons at all. Look at the federal reserve, comon now, sell me some swamp land next.
Hey you forgot all those Israelis who were rounded up, then quickly released to Israel ASAP after 9/11. And guess who made that decision?
“He is a prime example of why a stimatism has followed jews everywhere.”
No wonder there are so many Jewish optometrists.
” They believe in a bunch of lies that are taught to them from an early age. murder and land stealing over a lie written by the scribes themselves”
You don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about, and cannot substantiate that accusation. It’s pure anti-Semitism. And pretty puerile stuff, at that.
Or maybe it’s pure anti-stigmatism. I can just picture all those poor Jews from Russian, poring over the scriptures after getting new glasses and they still can’t see well enough to make out what the scribes wrote!
Phil- I agree that “They will hate us no matter what we do” is a dead end that leads to unthinking, stupid and irresponsible behavior. And I think your point that some hate us for our propensity for capitalism and others hate us for our propensity for anti-capitalism seems to be a more rational (and therefore useful) approach.
Nonetheless like the scene in “Raising Arizona” where the bank robbers tell the patrons- “Nobody move. Everybody down on the floor.” You can’t blame us for thinking, “Which one is it, mister? Should we not move. Or should we get down on the floor?”
Once on the streets of New York speaking to a street preacher, he told me how Jews were both capitalists and anti-capitalists (to use your boring phraseology), to which I replied, “The Jews are a diverse group.” But he heard, “The Jews are a devious group.”
My point: Yes, there are rational explanations to some hatred of the Jews and certainly eschewing rationality is stupid. But not all hatred of the Jews is rational and blinding oneself to this irrational side could be dangerous to your health (or my health, as the case may be.)
No shit, WJ.
Except:
You say that with zero context. What is the point of this blog? What are we talking about here? Even if people hate Jews and criticize Israel because they view it as an opportunity to ‘vent’ – tell me, from that same perspective of “Which one is it, mister?” -> is organ harvesting JEWISH or Zionist or just plain criminal? Is White Phosphorus, Jewish/Zionist/just plain criminal? Is Occupation/land theft/etc. etc. – Jewish or Zionist or plain criminal?
Is the artifice of bullshit laws and bureaucracy -> Jewish, Zionist, or just plain criminal?
How often is the phrase ‘Jewish people’ invoked? How often is it that, Israeli and American Jews frame a citation of fact (Israeli crime, the effects of the occupation, etc.) as pure antisemitism.
You want to mystify antisemitism. All it has ever been – like all other hate – is a framework of thinking. You see a Jew do something you regard as ‘bad’ and you conclude that ALL Jews are this way or that way.
That’s it. That’s all. How could it be MORE? Like functionally. Not in terms of importance – of course it’s important.
But you want to play up how it functions, it’s origins as if it’s fucking rocket science.
Yep; for the same reason you have Israeli Jews calling each other “Nazis” and “anti-semites”. Read failedmessiah.com some time. There’s an article there today with some orthodox Jews calling Israeli cops and secularists those names. Spit all over the place.
I’ll say it again, Citizen, thanks for pointing me to that blog. It’s funnier than “Sadly, No!”.com. So the guy goes out and joins the most backwards, bigoted, fanatical, repressive and superstitious Jewish group he can find, and then surprise, surprise, they turn out to be backwards, bigoted, etc, etc. And dishonest, too! And really, really wierd about sex! My gosh, who’d a thunk it! Reminds me of an old joke I just made up: A reporter makes a visit to the local lunatic asylum and is being shown around by someone he assumes is the head shrink. He tells the reporter to look in an office, where he sees a guy behind a desk, doing paperwork. Reporter says, “Gosh, he looks normal to me” The man leans over and whicpers in his ear: “Normal? Do you realise that man there doesn’t think he is Napolean?”
Shorter WJ: Somehow, we have got to make all Jews responsible for the crimes of Zionists and Israelis.
To Zionists, Judaism is nothing but a get-out-of-jail-free card.
Hey, Mooser, so much straight-forward pithiness, and in one short comment yet! Dipped into your small direct irony cupboard, eh? Took the George Castanza route, or maybe his (hilarious) dad’s–what happen to Jerry?
“Yes, there are rational explanations to some hatred of the Jews and certainly eschewing rationality is stupid.”
Help! Help! Anti-Semites have broken my syntax! Hey WJ, eschew on this!
“But not all hatred of the Jews is rational and blinding oneself to this irrational side could be dangerous to your health (or my health, as the case may be.)
Yeah, yeah, they’re just cutting us down all over and leaving the bodies in the streets. Maybe people don’t like you because you’re a little wart and a blister, it has nothing to do with being Jewish.
As I have suggested before, Mooser, if everyone, everywhere, hates you all the time, maybe you should think about your personal freshness.
And if they don’t, why tell yourself that they do?
(Not that I mean you, Mooser. No implications about your freshness. I’m simply following on from your point, and using “you” as a generic pronoun. )
I think Madoff is pondering that in his comfortable cell, RoHa.
I have made my way through life on a recent shower and a big smile. It’s worked til now, and won’t fail me in the future!
It would be a serious blow against anti-Semitism if the US media reported on Jewish opposition to Israel’s ethnic cleansing and occupation. Because that would threaten the Israel Lobby, that is not about to happen. When the US media talks about anti-Semitism, remember that is all that it is, talk!
“It would be a serious blow against anti-Semitism if the US media reported on Jewish opposition to Israel’s ethnic cleansing and occupation. “
Just because all our Ziotrolls try to mix up anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and legitimate criticism of Israel doesn’t mean you have to do it.
My complaint was that anti-Semitism is reduced to a rhetorical tool by our media. I should have made that clear.
Les, I thought it was clear, then again, I don’t have antlers (just that cloud of rain following me around like that kid in Charlie Brown).
ANTI-SEMITISM is the core fear exploited by both classical Judaism and modern Zionism to promote the internal cohesiveness and motivational power of their respective ideologies. Fear is real. Fear is powerful. Fear, irrational fear, is what motivates the Zionist cadres to organize, write letters, make phone calls, etc.
There may have been a kernel of truth to classical Judaism’s notion of the “Gentiles hate us because we are Jews.” We tend to project our modern worldview unto historical events where it is inappropriate. We tend to be unaware that classical Judaism, which was the only Judaism up until about 200 years ago, was a religious belief system that emphasized separation from the Gentiles, had distinctive dress, dietary traditions, and other means to encourage separation. Implicit in religious anti-Semitism was the anti-Gentile BEHAVIOR of classical Jews. This at a time when fratricidal rivalry was common and religious obedience was a primary expression of group solidarity. Not that the Jews were “at fault,” or that other factors, such as scapegoating, didn’t come into play.
Nowadays, the notion of eternal “anti-Semitism” is basically an anti-Gentile slur which is used to exploit irrational Jewish fear. The implication is that fundamentally, the Goyim are not GENETICALLY the same as Jews. How else to explain that the phenomenon is unrelated to environmental factors, or that Jews are somehow untainted by this aberration? The notion is so preposterous that it would have likely have disappeared were it not for the HOLOCAUST, and the skillful exploitation of that by the Zionists. The irony, of course, is the extent to which the Zionists cooperated with the Nazis and other anti-Semites in creating a Jewish state.
What must be kept in mind is that without anti-Semitism, Zionism has no justification whatever, and that Israel, AS A JEWISH STATE, is indefensible. Therefore, Zionism REQUIRES anti-Semitism both to legitimize it and to motivate their Jewish cadres. Any honest accounting of “anti-Semitism” would compare that with any and all other forms of discrimination. Such an honest accounting would show that anti-Semitism is minimal, whereas, anti-Arab, anti-Muslim discrimination is high.
so, is it antiMennonitic to say that “nobody bakes a shoofly pie like a Mennonite,” and, “those Mennonite women may look frumpy but they make some very stylish quilts….”
“We tend to be unaware that classical Judaism, which was the only Judaism up until about 200 years ago, was a religious belief system that emphasized separation from the Gentiles, had distinctive dress, dietary traditions, and other means to encourage separation.”
You tend to be unaware that those things were the result of either oppression by non-Jews, and in many cases collaborated in by Jewish leaders. If those things (….seperatism….) were such a big part of “classical Judaism” why did Jews, as soon as they were blessed with civil rights, abandon them in any but the most symbolic and non-binding forms? Were a monority of Jews devoted to those things? Sure, and if affluence allowed, they kept up a pretense. Are there Jewish “leaders” to whom that seperatism was part of stock-in-trade, sure.
But the great majority left them behind as soon as they were able.
Israel does not use seperatism because it is Jewish, Israel uses seperatism because it is a part of all colonial projects. And in fact, when we make invidious comparisons of Israel to other regimes, it’s never compared to say, Jews in New york or Los Angeles or London, but to non-Jewish colonial projects, like South Africa.
I concur with Mooser here.
I believe that historical Jewish segregation largely resulted from either heavy encouragement from the ruling authorities or just downright coercion.
Of course things like dietary codes, dress styles, and different religious views made this process easier (for the ruling authorities), but I believe these reasons pale in contrast to the state sponsered segregation of that era.
As Mooser points outs, European Jews in particular adopted their particular National identities as soon as the chance was open to them. It could even be argued that they were more enthusiastic about it than were many people in the non-Jewish population.
In fact, he concurs so much he said it twice!
MOOSER, JAMES- My whole point about classical Judaism was that while there may have been some justification once upon a time for the view that Gentiles disliked Jews because they were Jews (and all that implied back then concerning behavior), nowadays, with Jews assimilated into the culture and virtually indistinguishable from Gentiles, the notion of INHERENT anti-Semitism is preposterous, and only the manipulated fear engendered by the Holocaust gives it traction.
I agree completely that once provided the opportunity to escape classical Judaism afforded by the enlightenment, many Jews abandoned classical Judaism for more open lifestyles. However, I am under the impression that during the time of classical Judaism (similar to current Orthodox Judaism), the separation of Jews from Gentiles was primarily due to Rabbinical guidance and control. This is not an area that I have read extensively on, my primary reference source is JEWISH HISTORY, JEWISH RELIGION: THE WEIGHT OF THREE THOUSAND YEARS by Israel Shahak. Once again, my whole point (perhaps poorly phrased) was that what once may have contained a kernel of truth way back when is longer even remotely plausible due to changed circumstances.
I concur with Mooser here.
I believe that historical Jewish segregation largely resulted from either heavy encouragement from the ruling authorities or just downright coercion.
Of course things like dietary codes, dress styles, and different religious views made this process easier (for the ruling authorities), but I believe these reasons pale in contrast to the state sponsored segregation of that era.
As Mooser points outs, European Jews in particular adopted their respective National identities as soon as the chance was open to them. It could even be argued that they were more enthusiastic about it than were many people in the non-Jewish population.
Thanks, James. Certainly, once civil rights were available to Jews, was the proportion of Jews who insisted on separating themselves from everyone else any higher than it is for other religions?
Naturally, Zionists will stress anything which might create separation and antagonism towards the Palestinians. Were Jews to move to the Holy Land and assimilate into the population, the entire thing falls apart.
Just like the British were very negative about colonial merchants and traders who “went native”.
You don’t even see the equivalent of Shaker, Mennonite or Amish communities among the Jews of America. Why not? It would have been very easy, gather some funds, buy some land and set up a self-determined, self-ruling community.
Ah, but looking at “FailedMessiah.com” we see that the haredi have done that to some extent, and the result? Same as it ever was when economic interest and petty megalomania masquerades as piety.
mooser you are wrong!!!! lets hope the ET comes to save our planet from the greed that is. however it is not myself whom says this but the government official from a long time ago and he states as you see it below, about world domination. I believe H. Ford used to put it in his cars he sold too/ Not all just the ones in power. I wouldn’t want to be included, I never towed the line even though I am.
Here is a pasted of the part in which I find a bit revealing about unsurprised.
He found it unsurprising that Germany had taken such steps: the Jewish element in Britain, the United States, and Russia had launched the war against Germany, hoping to destroy the Christian world, annihilate gentiles, and achieve world domination.12 One could hardly distinguish this perception from the Nazi world view.
“lets hope the ET comes to save our planet”
Good idea! You keep watch on the night skies, maybe set an alarm so you don’t fall asleep, and the minute ET shows up, you e-mail me.
Make sure you get in touch before he lands. I’ll be right over with a cell phone, if he needs to call home. Jeez, I hope it’s an evening or weekend, they’re free calls with my plan. I hope they have Verizon out beyond the blue horizon.
there is a lot to be said if you keep reading archives and old documents. Unfortunately for me being one, they did any good for me in any way, so maybe I feel left out> but then again, I would want a part of hate in the first place. The jewrys in power are the people I refer to. and if you watch the gissin empire skit you would understand as well. Do you refuse to say it is true, or is the usa archives wrong. A lot of powerful people in many governments and positions is what caused it in my view, which doesn’t matter
in the first place. It is the facts of the actions of those people in power that hate to begin with. Sorry you don’t see eye to eye. I don’t hate, just question the logic of why the power players do, and how you could stand quiet and let them malign your beliefs and your existance with murder and lies. My rememberance of gram saying, “if you step in sh-t, you will smell like it”.
It’s too bad nobody ever eats those fruitcakes, some of them are very good.
Javs, you are a perfect package of anti-Semitism, illiteracy, and stupidity!
I am a jew mooser, my tyraid of typing because I am doing it too fast, yes stupid it is. However the national archives is were the inspiration came from. So just as gissin stated in his ranting about obvious ignorance of the world being fooled when it comes to land and god, is not my take on things. I was reading from the oh so choosen that is our government, which can be verified(unless they remove it from the national archives. Whom is it that owns and runs these corporations that are poisoning and robbing the world…lets take the rumsfeld job, prior to his leap and jump in employment, or maybe the FDA, or possible any of the GMO’s and political ties. Now they want to patent fish, would you be at least realistic, instead of insulting. The archives have a whole lot of trails that lead down the gram cracker road that we are to believe is golden. Are the archives wrong mooser??
I would like to see a realistic point on why it is that when questioned you say anti semetic? How about ranting to the aparthied government in israel and congress here in the us, whom are responsible for allowing the crazyness to go on and on. Funny that I spoke to palestinians not that long back before the cast iron, it was after the second antifada, and they wouldn’t mind a peace just not a fraction of a piece one tenth comes to mind. And aparthied want the whole and murder doesn’t seem to bother them. Does it bother you mooser? It was done in our names….if you haven’t noticed. Has anyone?
To hate is easy, that why I always pick the the moral high road and try and make blinded people see the light, even if it is miles away.
javs
What documents and archives you’re referring to. You’re not citing sources. Any links?