Last night at Cooper Union, George Packer sought to expose some possibly embarrassing sources of Tariq Ramadan's political commitments by reading a quotation from Ramadan's grandfather, Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. Packer asked Ramadan why he had failed to address the import of such anti-Semitic utterances; he implied that the failure might indicate a less than candid approach, by Ramadan, to Islamic anti-Semitism generally. Ramadan said that the quotation seemed to him likely to have been taken out of context.
Packer insisted that the only relevant context was what it must have meant to ally oneself with an ally of Hitler. Packer incidentally acknowledged that he had drawn his quotation from a recent book by Jeffrey Herf, Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World. That source, however, has, in fact, come under strong criticism precisely for its practice of de-contextualization--more particularly its synonymizing of Arab hostility toward Zionism in the 1940s and Hitler's genocidal anti-Semitism. A revealing exchange between Richard Wolin and Herf, touching on this and related matters, was published last November in The Chronicle Review.
"One of Herf's crown witnesses is the Muslim Brotherhood founder, Hassan al-Banna, whose well-documented anti-Semitic tirades in Herf's view represent the missing link between the Nazis and the leading representatives of contemporary political Islam. But as Matthias Küntzel demonstrates in Jihad and Jew-Hatred: Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11 (Telos Press, 2007)--a book for which Herf wrote the foreword--'it would be wrong to characterize the Muslim Brothers as ardent followers of the Nazis.' Here there is simply no squaring the circle; too many aspects of Nazi ideology--its paganism, its Aryan racial doctrines, its conception of Germanic geopolitical supremacy--are incompatible with the key tenets of political Islam. As Küntzel rightly concludes, Hassan al-Banna was too devout a Muslim to latch on to someone as impious as Hitler as a political role model. Such facts speak volumes about the tenuous nature of some of Herf's 'continuity' claims."
I have done no research on Hassan al Banna’s antisemitism, but even the quote from Richard Wolin states that al Banna’s antisemitic tirades are well documented (even if the continuity from Hitler and Nazism is questionable). The question then is: does Tariq Ramadan owe it to the public to deal with his grandfather’s legacy or not?
No, Tariq Ramadan doesn’t, just like Benjamin Netanyahu doesn’t own anyone an answer for his father’s bigotry, we all all each our on people. That said, Bibi seems a lot more like his gramps than Tariq his pops, at least from what I’ve seen of them all.
“…we are all…” that is.
The Muslim Brotherhood founded by Ramadan’s grandfather is a major player in the Arab world, whereas Netanyahu’s father is a major academic, but would never have been heard of by the general public if not for Netanyahu’s election as Prime Minister. Since Ramadan represents himself as a new modern western Islamic leader (thinker), I think he has wider responsibilities than you are willing to lay at his doorstep.
You just nitpicked my example to completely ignore my point. Again, who’s father, grandfather, or whatever did what means squat; we are all each our own people in this world.
And how big a rogue nuclear arsenal does Tariq Ramadan control? How many American-made F-16s fly under his orders as Prime Minister of… which state, exactly?
kylebisme- If Ramadan were an individualist I would agree with you, that it would be irrelevant to ask him about previous opinions. But Ramadan is a Muslim who is trying to combine modernism and tradition and as such I disagree with you and believe that he has a certain responsibility to deal with certain traditions within the Islamic community.
kylebisme, you should know that the only “continuity” that Zionists can find in their opponents past is “evil continuity,” but they can never make the connection between the fairy tale past they claim to take responsibility for the present atrocious behavior of the murderous settler state they protect. So they (Zionists) only have a past which bequeaths benefits to them to the detriment of their indigenous victims (Palestinians), but their opponents all have a past that bequeaths antisemitism for pointing out their atrocious behavior.
The “subtle” inference is supposed to mean (WJ’s statement) that all of the tension only springs from a groundless antisemitism, not from a murderous colonial settler states activity (Israel), nor from the broad brush Israel’s defenders (in Israel and elsewhere) use to prop up over 1 billion Muslims as a single unitary entity that is supposed to be in an “unavoidable clash” of cultures (Lewis and Huntington). That all Muslims are supposed to be backward and exactly the same moving in lock step against Israel because they are supposed to be Nazis in disguise. It is (how it is presented by WJ and others), a Dershowitz light argument
We have even had them (Zionists), some more disguised than others, come here and try to tell us that the proliferation of the “protocols” is rampant and embraced without distinction by many (or as another said, “most”) Muslims. However, we never hear anything about that broad brush applied to all Muslims by Zionists (and their supporters) which I previously described – how it is taught in all of their schools, and the general public in Israel so that over 50% of the children in recent polls come to a baseless hatred of not only Palestinians, but that entire “monolithic Muslim world.” A page of which those in power in the USA have taken, ingested, and are now about killing millions of those “Muslim hordes” in the region and beyond. This is not the type of “heritage” that most Zionists will own up to, but will deny without reserve.
If free elections were held today in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood would probably win. It is not an insignificant organization, nor is its founder’s philosophy insignificant. I do not know enough about Tariq Ramadan to reach conclusions about his philosophy. Islam contains plenty of positive aspects and a sufficient number of negative aspects. The majority in Israel these days is convinced that Islam is a danger to Israel, Jews and indeed to Europe and to the entire nonIslamic world. I have no reason to assume that the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas if allowed to fulfill their hearts’ desires would be peaceful towards Israel or Jews. The balance of power between the nonIslamic world and the Islamic world makes me calm regarding the future of Western civilization in the short term. That does not mean that I would advise someone Jewish to wear a kipa in certain neighborhoods of Paris or London. The role that Zionism has played in the development of certain virulent strains of Islamic hatred of Jews cannot be denied nor separated from other strains that might have come into existence independent of the Zionist enterprise. But the fact that Mein Kampf is for sale with an admiring photo of Hitler on its cover in the bookstores of Amman and that the Protocols are mentioned in the Hamas charter is undeniable and should not be disregarded no matter what the immediate cause.
The difference is that Yahoo’s father has a pulpit from which to incite hatred and violence against Palestinians and Arabs, while al-Banna can only do so from the obscure text that contains his speeches or words. Furthermore, Yahoo looks up to his father as a role model. He has publicly indicated so. There is no shred of evidence to support such a claim against Tariq Ramadan.
You, WJ, skilfully slide past the indoctrination that Netanyahoo’s father (a notorious Islamophobe if ever there was one, and one who spent most of his life in the US) must have placed inside his innocent little Bibi’s mind when he was but a babe.
My definition of Islamophobe (or anti-Semite, or nigger-hater, or racist of any kind) is someone who doesn’t even think twice about it, and whose subconscious bias colours everything he thinks or says.
Tariq Ramadan may well have the same psychological twist. So what?
Espousing the view that Jews should be expelled from their homes is anti-semitism. If you subscribe to that view, then you are an anti-semite.
“Espousing the view that Jews should be expelled from their homes is anti-semitism.”
No, it’s anti Zionism.
No one is espousing the view that Jews should be expelled from their homes. When you build a house on stolen land, it is not your home.
However, if you espousing the view that Palestinians should be expelled from their homes, then that is racist and pro papartheid.
You subscirbe to that view, which makes you racist and pro papartheid.
Of course it would win. It would win not because Egyptians are Muslim fanatics, but because the opposition – Mubarak – for more than 20 years now has been corrupt, tyrannical and unpatriotic.
Under Mubarak, Egyptians who dared exercise their freedoms, freedoms that are inherent to every democracy in the western hemisphere, were punished, muzzled, tortured and murdered.
Mubarak has also ignored the devastating Egyptian economic conditions and maintains an iron grip on the nation’s natural resources and no-bid contracts – - as it were.
Meanwhile, foreign companies that seek to invest in Egypt, bribe the ruling family and the generals that protect it, thus ensuring access to the Egyptian market labor market, all the while, the average Egyptian goes hungry.
So to recap, while Mubarak has been a winning election after election by a 96% or 94% margin (clearly rigged), and hogging the financial riches Egypt has to offer, the common person on the street has been starved and his country’s wealth has gone to a dictator and to foreign nations.
In light of that, the alternative Muslim Brotherhood seems lucrative and promising as one of its core objectives and values is to socialize the Egyptian economy and grant the huddled masses equality.
P.S. – I have recently learned from an Egyptian journalist, that every army general in the Egyptian armed forces receives an apartment, a personal driver, and all the amenities of modern creature comforts in one of Cairo’s luxurious neighborhoods in exchange for loyalty to the president and to his interests. Mubarak, in other words, knows how to keep his rottweilers happy.
I’m always surprised when I hear it’s ok to tear Jewish families from their homes but with Arabs it’s a no-no.
This double standard cannot last.
Nobody at all can claim to be moral while supporting a pogrom of expulsion. If you are willing to put on the uniform and go door to door dragging women children and babies from their homes, destroying personal property, burning homes, and spreading chaos, creating hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees, be my guest.
You would then be, in my book, an unethical and morally backward person who believes it’s ok to commit crimes against Jews but not to Arabs.
Such vagueness does not stand up to scrutiny. It’s a nice bumper-sticker slogan though. I’m sure the masses would line up at Kinkos to buy it.
Regardless of how vague the statement may seem to you it’s true. The mass expulsion of Jewish families is a pogrom that is broadcast regularly on this forum.
Citations, you need citations. Once your credibility is shot, your only hope at redeeming yourself is to provide citations, otherwise, anything and everything you say is as good as an unsubstantiated rumor or lie.
This entire comments section is a citation. It has been made very clear by many commenters that the goal is to massively expel Jewish families from their homes and land. If you think that is moral, and you would volunteer to drag men women and babies from their homes then speak up.
As Avi said, everything you say is as good as an unsubstantiated rumor or lie.
It’s obviously up to you, but I think the best tack to take regarding Unix, et al, is simply to not respond. Their posts are nothing more than slogans and taunting.
If they don’t get responses, they will leave within days.
I fully agree with the above statement.
UNIX- Espousing the view that non-Jewish Arabs should be expelled from their homes is anti-Gentile chauvinism. If you subscribe to that view, then you are an anti-Gentile chauvinist. The very essence of Zionism is anti-Gentile chauvinism.
Keith,
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
It’s so sad that it’s perfectly fine for you people to suggest tossing out and making regugees of jewish men women and children in their own land.
With Arabs that’s a no no though.
Get your priorities straight. First honestly tell me that you abhor and would not support the mass expulsion of Jews from their native homeland, then we can talk about equality.
I do not know enough about Tariq Ramadan to reach conclusions about his philosophy.
well, i imagine packer did some research on him prior to the evening in question. the fact packer went after Tariq’s grandfather instead of Tariq himself lends credence to the idea there wasn’t enough anti semitic meat on Tariqs bones for a proper feast.
UNIX- You are quite incredible. It is obvious that the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians means nothing to you. Your only concern is with the Jews who performed the ethnic cleansing. You are a diehard anti-Gentile Zionist.
“With Arabs that’s a no no though”
How can it be a no no when it’s already been done?
“I’m always surprised when I hear it’s ok to tear Jewish families from their homes but with Arabs it’s a no-no.”
You aren’t surprised at all – you’re trying to draw some equivalence between an occupied population who have their homes demolished illegally by Israel – 24,125 so far – and some heavily subsidised squatters who moved into illegal settlements on illegally occupied Palestinian land in the knowledge the situation was not likely to be permanent. Yamit in the Sinai was evacuated in 1982, Gaza in 2005. Buyer beware.
“Among the general public, 72 percent accept the government’s authority to order a settlement withdrawal..”
link to haaretz.com
As for the silly claim of pogroms Salam Fayyad has stated settlers can live in Palestine as Palestinian citizens:
“Jews to the extent they choose to stay and live in the state of Palestine will enjoy those rights and certainly will not enjoy any less rights than Israeli Arabs enjoy now in the state of Israel..”
link to aspendailynews.com
“But Ramadan is a Muslim who is trying to combine modernism and tradition”
But don’t our Zionist volk tell us they have (and I quote) tied their destiny “to that of the Jewish People”. Same difference, or is Jewish fanaticism and abrogation of individual morals better than the Islamic kind?
Framing everything relevant that is in dispute and/or conflict as anti-semitic or not
boils down to never really dealing with the roots of daily frustration.
” ..does Tariq Ramadan owe it to the public to deal with..”
How about Tzipi Livni and Rahm Emmanuel, both spawn of Irgun.
Do they owe it to the public to deal with their parent’s legacy? Since Likud are the direct descendants of the Irgun via Herut, it’s relevant.
How can it be called ‘anti-semitic’ when most jews alive today ARE NOT semites?
Why aren’t the Israelis themselves called anti-semitic: they’re european settlers who are killing native semites daily and they blindly hate some 270 million Arab semites.
Taxi,
great job on the Foreign Policy site the other day.. Fending off a whole bunch of crazed zionist hacks the way you did! Chapeau!
In Europe Jew hatred used to be known as Jew hatred, back when Christianity was the primary reason for hating Jews. The problem arose when the nonJewish population stopped believing in Christianity and persisted in hating Jews, how to justify the hatred. The term antiSemitism was coined as a racial hatred for Jews. It was a term coined when there were no semites in Europe other than Jews (or in your opinion, Sir Taxi, no semites at all in europe.) The phrase nonetheless was coined for the purpose of describing hatred of Jews.
Applying the term “anti-semite” racially rather than culturally, as WJ refers, is itself an anti-semitic response, a racialist, a racist approach.
By that comment you imply “Jews are not a people”, as if race makes a people, rather than culture and identity.
Its how the left, solidarity, appears to be fascist.
As Burston described yesterday in Haaretz, the gift that keeps on giving to the Israeli right. Immoderation.
AFAIK the term anti-semitic applies only to Jews. This seems to have begun on Germany with the Anti-semitic league, an organization specifically targeting Jews.
Anti-Semitism has never been a term to describe any other sort of xenophobia or Islamophobia.
It seems attempts to call anti-semitism not necessarily against Jews, or to call Jews not semites, are both geared towards diversion and denial of a legitimate anti-semitic sentiment.
That was to taxi.
I understand. Though I do find a pervasive trend on this sight subscribing to far-right wing, neo-nazi type theories that the Ashkenazic Jews are completely and totally usurpers of Judaic tradition and have no lineage to Judea and Israel.
This is patently false. This is a ploy to call Jews thiefs in their own land because they are “white colonists”
There are many DNA studies as well as other studies that refute this, it’s a sick allegation, it’s anti-semitic and it brings extreme-far right views into a leftist forum.
I wouldn’t mind either way and if it was the case that an entire nation embraced Judaism I would applaud their courage.
Please cite the DNA studies proving that the Ashkenazi are genuine Semites.
Papers I have read (and I have read a lot) tend more to emphasise the common heritage of Palestinians and Jews
Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, and Ariella Oppenheim. “The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East.” The American Journal of Human Genetics 69:5 (November 2001): 1095-1112.
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
link to sanfranciscosentinel.com
But the big scandal is what happened to this paper:
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, Nagah Elaiwa, Carlos Silvera, Ahmed Rostom, Juan Moscoso, Eduardo Gómez-Casado, Luis Allende, Pilar Varela, and Jorge Martínez-Laso. “The Origin of Palestinians and Their Generic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations.” Human Immunology 62(9) (September 2001): 889-900. Published by Elsevier Science Inc. Recalled by editors after publication. Retraction in Human Immunology 62(10) (October 2001): 1063.
There was such an outcry from Jewish organisations that Jews were being conflated with Palestinians that the paper was withdrawn from publication.
On the Ashkenazi/Khazar meme, I’m not so sure, but I do wonder why Ben-Gurion, Begin, Golda Meir, Shamir, Rabin and a host of other Israeli leaders promoted aggressive Zionism over a simple and peaceful intermingling of two peoples with common ancestry. (None of the above were religious, so we can forget that excuse).
I understand where you are coming from Richard. I respect valid sources and citations, however I don’t respect that (and the Khazar theory) when it is used specifically as a weapon against the Jewish people in support of the massive expulsion of the Jewish people from their homes and land.
“however I don’t respect that (and the Khazar theory) when it is used specifically as a weapon against the Jewish people”
So valid sources and citations are only valid sources and citations some of the time?
Correct. Valid sources and citations are only valid sources and citations some of the timevalid sources and citations are only valid sources and citations some of the time
There’s nothing wrong with being a Khazar. Euro jews should be proud of their ancestral heritage.
ahhh we have another racist. you lefty Jew haters use this Khazar theory as one of your main ‘tools’ of hate. I’ve seen it on here countless times. Now you are saying there is nothing wrong w/ it Taxi? how bout you quit being a racist and quit patronizing us.
Yonira,
I fully support your comment. It’s ok to believe that Jews come from mars, venus, or Khazarland, but it is NOT ok to use these theories for the support of immoral things like the massive expulsion of Jewish families from Jerusalem by military forces that would swoop in at night, evict entire family and create hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees in their own land.
We all see that there are still Gaza refugees from Gush Katif tragedy.
What is the point of the traditional Jewish (and later somewhat copycat Nazi) version (in turn copied by the State Of Israel for its Law Of Return) of that definition of a Jew as someone born from a Jewish mother’s womb? Is this orthodox choice of definition more nature or more nurture? Does a Jewish womb subsist on gilfte fish and matzo balls, especially when some definitions of who is a jew incudes avowed aetheists, and consistent agonistics? Do we circle around to
the fact that a non-jew can convert to Judiasm, so long as they are willing to stand on their head for years and answer all the rabbinical questions? Just trying to get to the point–since it keeps moving endlessly, like the proverbial
walnut shell game. Is the definition one that is always only answerable in the special instant context? And if there is no general rule userful across the board,
then of what use is a rule that has so many exceptions they devour the rule?
Witty,
“By that comment you imply “Jews are not a people”, as if race makes a people, rather than culture and identity.”
You mean you ‘perceive’ I imply – and of course you would dear.
It is clear by all definitions that judaism is a RELIGION, a desert CULT, an IDEOLOGY or whatever you want to call it. Jews are adherents to judaism, just like christians are adherets to christianity – nothing wrong with stating the established obvious.
I don’t believe the above statement has a shred of racism/fascism in it.
But you would play that cheap violin. Do you zionist guys lie in bed everynight and repeat the mantra: I must be someone’s victim tomorrow, I must be someone’s victim tomorrow, I must be someone’s victim tomorrow… ad infinitum.
I do realize that there is no black and white opera answer to the question who is a jew (hence what type of human in terms of practical beliefs and implementation of same?). One litmus test seems to be, at least superficially,
is that if a jew renounces judiasm by claiming he or she is a christian, then that is recognized usually by most people, both jews and gentiles. Recall, Bob Zimmerman (Dylan) flirted with that, if relatively briefly. OTH, so did
that neoNazi guy back in Chicago during the Skokie demonstration days…
In comparison, for example, it seems any “born-again christian” is accepted
by all as such if he or she simply claims to have taken Jesus as his or her “personal saviour.” And nobody can penetrate this self-designation because
such a claimer simply says, in effect, if not directly, “you don’t have the right or light or understanding to dispute my self-declaration.” You only use logic, or books not inspired by God, which means you don’t “get” the bible.
Seems to me like the above sort of outlines two extremes–both in the end,
equally vague. OTH, I do realize that quantum physics affirms layers of material particle-wave that cannot be seen directly, but only indirectly, by
mathametically suggested formulas of deeper patterns pointing toward
the union of matter with spirit (pure energy?)…
And it’s the ANTI-SEMITIC people on this forum who get to DECIDE? who a Jew is?
I learned about the Khazar back in the day when I was at school studying european history. But the most I’ve learned about the Khazar actually comes from a jewish website:
link to khazaria.com
There are thousands of such sites, including a substantial entry on wikipedia.
Maybe yonira darling should go tell those european jews trying to preserve their history by keeping it on record that they’re a bunch of racist too.
Seriously, when an Israeli accuses a non-israeli of racism, you just gotta weep from laughter. Don’t they know the word is inconsequential and benign when it comes out of their mouths?
Now which part of the verb/noun ‘CONVERT’ would you like me to explain? I’d be happy to even get into the philology of the word.
“how bout you quit being a racist and quit patronizing us.”
You’d better be careful yonira you’re about to start empathising with what the Palestinians must feel when they are repeatedly told “you don’t exist”, “there is no Palestine”, “Jordan is Palestine” and all that other Joan Peters bunk.
You’re the anti-semite with your jack-boot on the necks of millions of Palestinian semites, both christian and moslem – oh yeah they ARE semites and YOU are clearly ethnically cleansing them before the eyes of the world.
Shame on you and your hebron fund bingo club.
I have much empathy for the Palestinians and their cause. They deserve their own state of Palestine, at peace with Israel. With a long term plan of integration between the two people.
“We all see that there are still Gaza refugees from Gush Katif tragedy.”
They aren’t refugees they’re Israeli citizens who made the stupid decision to occupy illegal settlements outside Israel,.
There are however the REAL refugees of 1948, the 711,000, and their descendants. 62 years and they’re still waiting for Israel to honour the commitments all UN member states make.
I think Israel should allow in 711,000 Palestinians to live in Israel. Allowing in the descendants of these refugees would be the destruction of Israel. This would lead to massive bloodshed.
Hanging onto this notion of the right of return for both refugees and their descendants is proof that the Palestinian leadership does not want peace. We are reminded almost daily on here how Hamas has accepted a two state solution, well this solution gives the Palestinians a state in the West Bank, Gaza and E. Jerusalem, along with a majority of Palestinians in Israel. Then you get all up in arms that Israel won’t accept this.
And while Jews were persecuted in Europe by Christian fanatics, especially in Spain, Muslims were the only religious group that took the Jewish minority under their collective wing and protected them so long as they were able to. The rest is history, as they say. Jews were driven out of Spain in what is known today as Gerush Sfarad, the Spanish Expulsion.
It’s disingenuous to omit that fact when discussing Muslim-Jewish relations, especially in the pre-Zionist era.
“, back when Christianity was the primary reason for hating Jews”
Sure. Always somebody else’s fault.
RoHa- It would be more accurate on my part to have written “back when Christianity was the primary intellectual rationale for hating Jews.”
Yes, that would be more accurate, WJ. As Judiasm was the more accurate ratonale for separating Jews from Gentiles–something it appears Saul of Taurus (sic?) (St Paul) decided was not the way to go–after getting hit by lightening or whatever on the road to Damascus.
So what do you think the real reason for Jew hatred was?
The story we keep getting told is that for two thousand years or so, and in dozens of different countries, the Jews have had trouble with the neighbours. And that it’s all the neighbours’ fault.
The man who coined the phrase was separating one group of people from another, based on his respective allocation of daily practice of virtues and vices. He copied this from conventional religion, transforming this into a more obvious secular religion.
All said and done it is part of –
THE MYTH OF THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS
It is a part, or a subsection of the above. It can be found, as an example, in the USA with such groups as Campus Watch when they become part of this every year to the present –
RISE OF THE MODERN BROWN SHIRTS AGAINST “ISLAMOFACISM”
Employing the same methods of which they accuse on campuses across the USA, and who is it that espouses Nazi ideology? Let me assure you they are all the same whether they speaks in soft undertones of seeming reasonableness (as displayed here many times) or as rabid hawkers of racist ideology.
Given Huntington’s track record, it would only seem logical that those who subscribe to his nonsense are the same ones who stand to benefit from the lies that he peddles. And, in fact, they have been. It’s no coincidence, just look at the Neo-Cons and their partners in crime, their Zionist brethren.
Does anyone want to read a partial list of the ne0-cons who devised PNAC? This is in the “think tank” setting, but it is just as valid to observe:
Morton Abramowitz – Century Foundation
Elliot Abrams – Heritage Foundation
Richard V. Allan – Hoover Institute
Nina Jensen – Bang – Coalition For International Justice
Roger Barnett – National Institute For Public Policy
Gary Bauer – American Values
William J. Bennet – Heritage Foundation
Jeffrey Bergner – Hudson Institute
Dick Cheney – American Enterprise Institute
Steven C. Clemons – New America Foundation
Seth Cropsy – Heritage Foundation, AEI, Hudson Institute
Helle Dale – Heritage Foundation
Midge Dector – Heritage Foundation
Nicholas Eberstadt – AEI
Edwin J. Feulner – Heritage Foundation
Hillel Fradkin – Heritage Foundation
Reuel Gerecht – AEI
Bruce Jackson – International Institute For Strategic Studies
Mark P. Lagon – AEI
Lewis Lehrman – Heritage Foundation, AEI
Todd Lindberg – hoover Institute
Edwin Meese – Heritage Foundation
Joshua Mauravchik – AEI
Richard Perle – AEI
Danielle Pletka – AEI
Donald Rumsfeld – Hoover Institute
Henry Sokolski – Heritage Foundation
John Tkacik – Heritage Foundation
Malcolm Wallop – Heritage Foundation
Paul Weyrich – Heritage Foundation
Larry Wortzel – Heritage Foundation (director)
Dov Zakheim – Heritage Foundation
These are all part of well known members and contributors, but it also has less well known foundation members, various cousin media connections, those with personal financial interest, and those with government agency connections. With just the major foundation members mentioned it’s 129 published contributors on their web site, they represent about 35%.
SEPTIC THINK (STINK) TANKS
Thanks for the list VR.
If WJ’s comment on not advising Jews to wear a kipa in some neighborhoods is accurate, which I think it is, that is a compelling statement.
WJ,
Are you suggesting specific communities, or just a general wariness?
There are loads of places Jews can’t wear Kippah, Malmo Sweden, Paris France, Syria, Amsterdam.
Above statement is a diversion from the topic in order not to face the truth.
But you don’t deny that Israeli Jews routinely spit upon Christians, huh?
I agree that you made a diversion tactic to hide from the truth of the original topic which was Jews not being able to wear a kippah.
I’d rather be spat on than killed. But hey I have some choice loogies waiting for you!
First the blood libel thing with “eating” academic sources, and now spitting on the goyim.
Seriously, can we have some of the Jewish members of the audience here speak up? This clown claims to represent the Jewish people — all of you guys — as an Israeli. Do you guys really want that?
You are really doing backflips to get to the blood libel haha.
If I tell you to eat your corrupt sources you try to pawn that off as blood libel.
As for spitting on people I’d love to spit on you however I dont support spitting on non Jews in general. :)
What a loser you are.
Not to mention, Obama can wear, and has worn, the kippah during certain White House funtions, but not the black-and-white keffiyeh.
Having Israelis who actually live in Israel participating in this forum has done wonders for elevating the level of discourse that many of us have been complaining has been on the decline recently, hasn’t it?
Which is funny, Citizen, because as an American citizen Obama is supposed to ascribe to the impartiality of separation of church and state. Meanwhile the keffiyeh is a political symbol that one supports the end of the Israeli occupation and the liberation of the Palestinian people — something Obama claims he supports, but doesn’t actually seem to.
I agree Obama should don the Kefiyah as soon and as often as possible.
“I agree Obama should don the Kefiyah as soon and as often as possible.”
Why? To save Israel a few bucks on photoshopping ?
Obama posters: WARNING PLO AGENT IN THE WHITE HOUSE (about half way down page)
link to 209.157.64.200
Christian priests, no less, are routinely spat on by nice israelis:
link to haaretz.com
Is the fact that non-Jews cannot wear that black and white checkered Palestinian neck wrap in some neighborhoods an equally accurate and compelling statement to you, Richard Witty? Just asking. And, WJ, are you suggesting specific communities, or just a general wariness?
Richard Witty,
My advice regarding wariness of wearing a kipa is based more on news reports rather than anything else. The dangers to Jews in the suburbs of Paris are rather well known (media-wise, I mean). The fact that London is now referred to as Londonistan is also well known, media-wise and the hateful preachers of London’s Muslim community are also well known. A friend in one London museum was “confronted” by a security guard who called him “juif”, a memorable experience even if it left no black and blue marks. A Ukranian Jew back in Brooklyn once told me that when returning to the “motherland” Jews should be wary, because “they will punch you in your Jewish nose, not in your American passport.”
The idea that Jew hatred has disappeared from the world is more wish than reality.
The constitution of the United States is strong and I do not fear for the Jews living in America as long as rationality reigns. (I found Philip Roth’s “The Plot Against America” a compelling read, but pre WWII America and America today are not the same and there is no indication of any short term turn around where Jews will become the scapegoat.)
Still across wide swaths of Europe there is still much hatred for Jews. Let alone the hatred that is taught to much of the billion and a half Muslims on this planet.
Today’s European hatred is mostly focused on dark skinned Muslims, so there are other hate priorities, but hatred towards Jews still exists.
My wife had an interesting experience in London in 2005. Her mother lives in one of the orthodox neighborhoods in London (though she isn’t at all).
While visiting, she looked for a place to exercise near her mother’s house. She found a women’s only exercise place, that she assumed was going to be mostly orthodox Jewish women looking for a women’s only spot. It was that, but about half of the participants were Muslim women, also looking for a modest place to exercise.
They got along. Some even shopped together. (Kosher food is conforming to Muslim dietary restrictions, so in many locales practising Muslim women shop at kosher butchers.) I think the communities kept very separate, so I can’t really say that they were friends. I believe that in an emergency, they would have helped each other.
I’m not sure about their husbands though. There aren’t inter-communal football matches to blow off steam through respectful sport. There are inter-communal music venues, as there are in Israel.
I hope it is an intra-family tension in Muslim households, that agitation for terror or punitive resistance is discouraged, that those attitudes are confronted privately if not publicly.
So, that Muslims have the equivalent of Passover discussions on liberation, and compassion for the stranger, and loving one’s neighbor as oneself.
I don’t hear it here.
Well, Richard, here is a respected mainstram Muslim scholar and leader who is willing to condem terrorism. I just wish that I saw Jewish leaders reciprocate:
link to youtube.com
I’ve met a number who condemn terror.
Do you argue about it around your dinner table? Do you question your assumptions?
Well, what assumptions are we supposed to question, exactly? That ethnic cleaning and racial supremacism is wrong? That occupied populations have a right to resist occupation (with the understanding that they should not attack civilians)? Please enlighten me.
Role of violence in dissent, acceptance of Israel as Israel, question of role of religion, of the authority of scripture, means to realize peace, how to treat diaspora Palestinians, many issues.
“Role of violence in dissent”
I think I said that we discussed this in terms of occupied populations having a right to militarily resist violent military occupations.
“acceptance of Israel as Israel”
Hmmmm, I don’t recall too many Native American families having discussions about having to accept the US as a state for European Christians. Same thing goes for African-Americans.
As for the other things you mentioned, I think there are heated discussions about these issues.
It is certainly a curious position that some Zionists hold (like WJ), that of signaling out certain groups among “Muslims,” that they must be searched out and destroyed with prejudice. That is because in each instance of supposedly only worrying about a single small group, the entire populations are murdered and punished in the “antiseptic” targeting. The Palestinians are collectively punished for Hamas (and before Hamas ever appeared), millions of Iraqis were exterminated to try to “get Saddam,” all of Afghanistan is invaded to get the Taliban, and large swaths of Lebanon was bombed with many innocents dying to get Hezbollah. In other words, entire nations are targeted, and if they could it would be the entire region in ruins. So the concept of getting a small group is complete bullshit, and is no different than the hundreds of years of death and destruction on the planet for the so-called sake of liberation and “progress.” It is merely the strong assailing the weak for various purposes (many of the groups would have never come into being without this murderous process), making WJ and all others who hold this view full of bullshit and nothing but the holders of ulterior motives.
Yeah, all true, VR. Nothing like the double irony of the US and Israel working in partnership to win hearts and minds in the Middle East–at the tip of F-16 guns paid for by the US taxpayers. Interestingly, the US and Israel both describe themselves as
democratic states, only seeking to spread their democratic joy to the backward Arabs and Muslims. Methinks the Arab countries are more honest–they never claim to be
democratic, nor are they self-designated as such states.
Hitler’s genocidal anti-Semitism Huh? Let me use a simple metaphor here. If Hitler had deduced that in his utopian vision for the 3rd Reich blackberries were not perfect enough he would have eradicated blackberries. It doesn’t mean he disliked blackberries more than the next guy.I can see that if it had been his favorite fruit he’d probably – but not certainly, would have wanted to keep them around.
Hitler’s main flaw was his intent to radically cleanse his world from all blemishes. When people state their appreciation of blackberries , and how wrong Hitler was about them, then these people are eh, barking up the wrong uh, tree – i need to work on my metaphors.
@Tuyzentfloot
What a sick viewpoint. Hitler apologist, that’s something new on this forum.
Some early “liberation” process –
THE LIES
the lies have not stopped since.
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Speaking of anti-Semitism …
People are generally aware of pre-World-War I era cartoons of Eastern European Jewish men wearing stars of David and yarmulkes to make clear that these men with their ragged beards, swarthy complexions, big noses, and sneering angry expressions were definitely Jews. Do those identical cartoons, which appear daily in our media, cease to be anti-Semitic by just switching their dress to that of Middle Eastern mullahs and leaving their faces unchanged?