‘The Nakba was our doing’

Several years ago, I introduced the idea of a Nakba commemoration to my progressive synagogue in Philadelphia. The response was a stunning barometer of the work ahead. “It’s too bad the Nakba has to fall on Israel Independence Day. That’s The Day for celebrating the Jewish state. It’s not a day to talk about Palestinians.” Fast forward six years: an orange flier neatly tucked inside this month’s synagogue newsletter is headlined “Yom Ha’Atzma-ut al Naqba Commemoration” on April 16, 2010.

The winds are shifting, but the sailing is by no means smooth. Just yesterday attending a congregational bat mitzvah, I inadvertently seated myself among the pro-Israel camp. Greetings were strained. I like these people. Prior to my coming-out as an anti-Zionist, they liked me too. Now I am seen as one of “those people” who insists on bringing up the “N” word each year as we plan for Yom Ha’Atzmuut (Israel Independence Day).

Like many Jews, even within the progressive community, my co-congregants may know but refuse to talk about the “N” word. The Nakba, or “catastrophe,” names the Palestinian experience in 1948. Expulsion and transfer from their homes in historic Palestine allowed for the creation of Israel as a Jewish state. Simply put, the Nakba was and is the dark side of Jewish statehood. 

Nakbaphobia – Jewish fear of acknowledging and taking responsibility for the irrefutable historical record of the Palestinian experience in 1948 – must be confronted. As victims of historic injustice, Jews resist seeing ourselves as perpetrators and oppressors. Our post-holocaust mantra “Never again,” has emboldened Israeli militarism while numbing our senses, blinding much of the Jewish community to the ethical tradition of Judaism as well as the humanity of Palestinians.

The systematic plan to depopulate the land of Arabs in order to secure a Jewish national homeland has over time morphed into an effective apartheid state in the territory between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and the continuing exile of Palestinians in Diaspora who now number in the millions. Technologically as well as culturally rich, Israel holds itself out as a homeland for Jews worldwide. Third generation Palestinians grow up in refugee camps or live under a brutal military occupation. And Palestinians within Israel are governed by separate but unequal laws, schools, and social services. In broad daylight the whole world watches an ongoing Nakba in 2010 – Israeli confiscation of Palestinian land, resources and culture. 

The success of the Zionist project has been accomplished and is maintained by U.S. tax dollars and at the expense of the Palestinian people. An Orwellian reframing of reality defines as necessary for its security the very ‘facts on the ground’ that make Israelis unsafe. The routine mistreatment and collective punishment of Palestinians is immoral, illegal, and unjustifiable. Further, to not see the humanity of an entire people is blatant racism. 

The concern for Jewish survival which catalyzed the early Zionist movement is a concern in 2010, but for very different reasons. The big lies embedded in the foundational myths of 1948 have been passed down as historical truth. In addition to causing irreparable harm to Palestinians, this denial of historical truths and perpetration of current injustice corrode the integrity of Judaism and imperil Jewish survival. Zionism is not Judaism, never was, and becomes less so every day. By conflating Zionism and Judaism, the deck is stacked against truth-telling as well as justice. And both Zionism and Judaism each suffer from having lost its moral compass. 

Jewish statehood was achieved through the ethnic cleansing of another people. To celebrate Israel without regard for its impact on the indigenous people of Palestine is un-Jewish. It is indeed challenging for our psyche to accommodate both the Nakba and Israel Independence Day. Yes, of course Jews who commemorate the Nakba spark cognitive dissonance that likely diminishes the celebratory spirit of Israel Independence Day. As well it should. 

“I’m sorry!” is bedrock in Jewish tradition. Taking responsibility for Israeli actions in 1948 is an al chet moment. Naming what we are sorry for, the wrongs we have committed, and turning toward healing is what Jews have done on Yom Kippur for millennia. Doing so in this instance would not diminish Israel. Rather, by claiming our collective humanity, we increase the likelihood of a just peace with our neighbors.

What I want to say to my Jewish friends is this: What was done to the Palestinian people in 1948 was not okay. The Nakba was our doing. Failure to name it, to take responsibility for it, to apologize, and to find a different path, may yet be our undoing.

And as for the Nakba remembrance that I mentioned at the start: It is a Kabbalat Shabbat Service at Congregation Mishkan Shalom in Roxborough, PA, entitled "The Power of Memory." The title has caused a LOT of reactions as you might guess. It remains to be seen what the program will be like, who will come, etc. But this is a huge step!

The flier reads "Were you present on the day in 1948 when the State of Israel was declared an independent state? Do you have family stories about the day? 5 Iyar, 5708 (May 14 1948) was experienced by many Jews as a day of overwhelming joy, by some as a day like any other, and by some as a worrisome moment in our history. By many Palestinians, it was seen as al-Naqba,a day of catastrophe, of being forced to leave their homes and communities. Each year we try to honor the experiences that diverse people had as we reach this day on our calendar. On Friday, April 16, we will open the floor to those who want to share their own memories, the memories of others they know or have learned. Join us to share your stories and to honor the memories of others."

About Susan Landau

Susan Landau is an activist and organizer with Philly BDS.
Posted in Israel/Palestine

{ 263 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. potsherd says:

    This is a wonderful idea. I hope it may become a tradition. You are quite right that atonement is a Jewish tradition.

    • zamaaz says:

      How shall we define ‘catastrophe’(nakba) ? when the Almighty allowed the Iraqi butchered hundreds of thousands or perhaps a million Jews and uprooted them out of Israel during the diaspora because of national transgression was it catastrophe? Yes!
      when many thousands of Palestinians were uprooted because the Jews are coming back to their lands, was it catastrophe? Yes!
      Then what is the significance to celebrate nakba for or against any of the two peoples? when the bottomline for nakba is divine justice? Hypocrisy?

    • Citizen says:

      Thank you Susan. You are the epitome of moral persuasion! I never heard of you before, but I will be watching you now–you are a courageous and high spirit in this dismal territory Phil treks on daily, as does Adam, and many regular commenters on Mondoweiss, both Jews and Gentiles.

      • Citizen says:

        Here’s a slice of Susan in action, and it shows what she stands for–she’s quite inspiring for those of us who don’t want a Hobbesian world, elevated ever so slightly by tribalism–I’d rather go from Kant, even as to my own blood relatives:
        link to campus-watch.org

        • Mooser says:

          Citizen, haven’t you been, or maybe still are, in the law industry?
          I wish I had the time or place to tell you about what we are going through now. It’s gone from harassment and destruction of property to extortion! In one sentence, the guy is trying to extort a piece of property from me by threats and harassment, and has no qualms about coming into court and proudly declaring it! He just did so at a hearing! And was shocked, shocked (his wife gave an audible gasp, too) when the restraining order was made permanent! It’s a circus!
          When the Judge asked him why it shouldn’t be extended, he replied that he “had never seen me work” and therefore I should be shot at sunrise. But I’m never up that early. Of course, he’s right, very few people have.

  2. eee says:

    What I want to tell my American friends is that the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was not ok.
    link to en.wikipedia.org

    Why aren’t you apologizing and reversing this CLEAR historical injustice?
    The treaty was a huge tragedy for Mexico and it was forced at the point of the gun. Why would you not start by cleaning your own house? Why are you picking on Israel instead of leading by example?

    • Chaos4700 says:

      The Israeli assault on American Jews continues.

      • eee says:

        Why are you not working to reverse the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo? Do you think it just? Or are you only trying to change “unjust” facts on the ground when it relates to Israel?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Who says I’m not?

        • eee says:

          I do. Care to prove me wrong? Link me to a blog on which you advocated reversing the treaty.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          I’d love to link you back to the comments I’ve made on this blog where I’ve openly (though perhaps facetiously, but still) stated that Mexico can have Texas back, for all I care. Texas has been nothing but a liability to the US, barely consider themselves Americans anyway with all that separatist talk and, of course, that Texas was built by taking land from the existing Mexican government in the area. Does that count?

          Anyone care to back me up that I’ve said that?

        • eee says:

          And what about California ignoramus? It was part of the treaty. Arizona? New Mexico? Do you support returning those also?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Actually, I am a major proponent of opening up American immigration laws and relaxing the border restrictions with Mexico, specifically. The Mexican government doesn’t seek, and even it did couldn’t manage, to have that land return to it.

          And how could it? Decades of neoliberal corporatism have absolutely devastated the Mexican economy. Mexico was once a proud nation; American imperialism has reduced it to a virtual failed state with horrendous living conditions for most of its population, exploitative economic practices often forwarded by US corporations and overrun with drug cartels that exist primarily to service markets in the US.

          I think it’s time for the US and Mexico to stop thinking in terms of “My side! Your side!” and start thinking in terms of what is best for both people. The notion of exclusivity between Mexican and US citizenship is rapidly approaching disparity with the fact that Hispanics are going to become majorities in many states very soon (may already be, in California) and overall in the US not very much longer after that.

          Actually, I take a bit of inspiration on how Jordan has pitched in with the massive humanitarian crises the US has inflicted upon the Iraq, for instance. Not that nationality doesn’t still matter, but Jordan wasn’t going to turn away millions of suffering people just because they were “afraid of [their] economic security” (your phrase, as I recall) taking a hit.

          Any other questions?

        • eee says:

          When you actually implement what you preach in the US, then come preach to Israelis. Until then, FIX YOUR OWN HOME.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          LOL! I love it.

          Checkmate, I guess.

        • aparisian says:

          Does this apply to French men? We gave Algerians Algeria? huh eee?

        • We agree. Both on Mexico and on Jordan.

          Amazing when you actually speak, rather than bait.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Too bad the same couldn’t be said for your hollow rhetoric, Witty.

        • Citizen says:

          Yeah, eee, human history came before and after the Nuremberg Trials (the period on the sentence that included WW1 & WW2). Allowing Israel as a state subsequently did not, and does not mean
          we are to ignore the lessons of Nuremberg–otherwise Goering was right, there’s nothing but military/economic victor’s justice.
          And the US Civil War means nothing else also. You sure you want
          to advocate for regression to Joshua’s days?

        • Citizen says:

          Yeah, right eee–what a cheap way out in pretending to answer Chaos. Who ever in human history was chided for their POV
          because they currently lacked the power or influence to implement what they preach, and from that conclusion an observer should draw they should not speak? BTW, where is your home? How much power do you have to implement your notions of justice? If you actually tell us, why should we not conclude we shouldn’t listen to you–simply because you have trivial power?

        • eee says:

          Citizen,

          It is not a matter of power but of effort. How much effort are you devoting to reversing the treaty that ended the Mexican-American war? Zero.
          How much effort are you devoting to inciting against Israel? Quite a lot from your presence on this blog.

          Why is that? Why are you focused on the “injustice” done to the Palestinians by Israel instead of focusing on the injustice YOU inflicted on the Mexicans? Why are you meddling in Israeli affairs instead of taking care of US affairs? Because you are an irrational Israel hater.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          That’s a pretty damning indictment considering you don’t know a damn thing about who Citizen is in real life.

          I’m still amused by the fact that you don’t deny mercilessly slaughtering Palestinians. You merely seek to justify turning a blind eye to it.

        • Taxi says:

          So when will self-hating Khazars return all loot stolen from the semites of the mid east? When will they stop bullshitting the world with this ‘god chose us and we’re not made of clay but of smoke and fire which is why goy are born as slaves to us chosen’ – when will this irrational stupidy cease?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          That’s a good point, Taxi. Those European Zionists don’t just owe the Palestinians — they ruined the lives and livelihoods of Mizrahi Jews as well.

        • Shingo says:

          eee,

          Why aren’t you working to reverse the partition Plan?

        • Shingo says:

          “Until then, FIX YOUR OWN HOME. ”

          So you agree that Israel is broken? Good on you eee/

        • Shingo says:

          “HowHow much effort are you devoting to reversing the treaty that ended the Mexican-American war? Zero.? Zero.”

          And how much effort are you devoting to reversing the occupation that resulted from teh 1967 war?

          Zero. Thanks eee the hypocrite.

        • eee–

          Great idea. Let’s do talk about the Mexican-American War.

          First point of order–when the US annexed Mexican territory subsequent to a treaty between the two nations, Mexican nationals in the US instantly became US citizens.

          Has Israel proposed annexing the West Bank and Gaza pursuant to a treaty between Israel and Palestine which would grant full Israeli citizenship to Palestinian Christians and Muslims?

          Why not?

        • Todd says:

          eee, I have heard this talk from Jews inside ond outside Isreal so many times that I get tired of it. However, I should be happy that it is becoming more open, because it exposes duplicity and separateness among many American Jews and Israelis. Americans need to see what our best allies are really like.

          I understand that Israel is so far in the wrong that I have to wish the best for the Palestinian people, but the whole situation is something that I want no part of. I would rather just cut Israel off to her fate, and bar the refugees from entering the U.S. when the experiment fails, and the chickens come home to roost.

          I don’t really care about Mexico or Mexicans, either. So what? Are you going to refuse American money and support?

          I found the following quote confusing:

          ““I’m sorry!” is bedrock in Jewish tradition. Taking responsibility for Israeli actions in 1948 is an al chet moment. Naming what we are sorry for, the wrongs we have committed, and turning toward healing is what Jews have done on Yom Kippur for millennia. Doing so in this instance would not diminish Israel. Rather, by claiming our collective humanity, we increase the likelihood of a just peace with our neighbors.

          What I want to say to my Jewish friends is this: What was done to the Palestinian people in 1948 was not okay. The Nakba was our doing. Failure to name it, to take responsibility for it, to apologize, and to find a different path, may yet be our undoing.”

          I find it encouraging that the author acknowledges that American Jews played a big part in supporting the founding of Israel and the crimes against the Palestinians. At the same time, she calls Palestinians her neighbors. I’m an American, and I don’t believe that Palestine borders Pennsylvania.

        • the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo
          eee
          —————-
          Off topic alert!!
          What does that have to do with what this site posts or is about? Let me state it here for you eee. From Mondo’s ‘raison d’etre’ that you can find clicking on “about”:

          “About Mondoweiss

          Mondoweiss is a news website devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish perspective.

          It has four principal aims:

          1. To publish important developments touching on Israel/Palestine, the American Jewish community and the shifting debate over US foreign policy in a timely fashion;

          2. To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues;

          3. To foster the movement for greater fairness and justice for Palestinians in American foreign policy;

          4. To offer alternatives to pro-Zionist ideology as a basis for American Jewish identity.”
          ———–

          So just to make it clear EEE, that you’re a troll of the worst kind and a parasite with the sole motive of stifling debate and corrupting discussions!

    • MRW says:

      Because we live in the present.

      • eee says:

        It is never late to return Texas, California etc. to Mexico.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Are they asking for it back? Don’t the Mexicans have a say in this?

        • Citizen says:

          And to return Jericho to the original natives?

        • eee says:

          Citizen,

          Lead by example, return Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona to Mexico and I am sure Israel will return Jericho (if it needs more returning).

        • Chaos4700 says:

          What would that accomplish? By every indication, even if we did do that, you Israelis would just say, “Fuck you! We already have your money. Piss off.”

        • eee says:

          Is that a relevant question at all? I thought you wanted justice.
          If you get to ask a utilitarian question, then it is also legitimate for Israel to ask what it will get from a one state solution, no?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          So which is it, eee? Do you want justice, or utility? Make up your mind. I don’t need to clarify to everyone else where I stand, I’ve made my position pretty clear, months ago before you even probably knew this site existed.

        • Shingo says:

          “It is never late to return Texas, California etc. to Mexico. ”

          Then surely it woudl not be too late to return all of Paelstine to the Paelstinians.

          I take it by your line of reasonins re Texas, California, that you are in favor of trurning Palestine to it’s rightful owners?

    • Citizen says:

      Jeffrey Dahmer arose, and he spoke, “Why are you persecuting me when there are so many others to rightfully persecute? And, eee, was in the audience, and eee jumped up and said, “Hey, yeah, why pick on Jeff? There’s lots of depraved criminals out there!”

      • Chaos4700 says:

        Which is actually a highly ironic example because, as I recall, Jeffrey Dahmer actually acknowledged that what he was done was wrong, immoral as well as evil. And he openly took full responsibility for his crimes.

        • Citizen says:

          You are right, Chaos. He was the only serial killer I can think of who
          took full responsibility for his evil actions, and merely asked for help to try to determine why he did what did. The state at minimum negligently allowed a declared rascist moron fellow inmate to kill him. What a loss.

      • eee says:

        Citizen,

        You keep missing the point. Imagine that you were more interested in Israeli serial killers than US ones. That would make you very weird. But, you are more interested by so called Israeli injustices than those clear ones your country committed. Redress those first, you Israel hater.

        • tree says:

          Imagine that you, as an Israeli, are more interested in BASHING other commenters and their countries than fixing your own country.

          Oh, wait, that’s what you are doing, over and over and over again. Why can’t you follow your own advice? Why should we give the time of day to someone who won’t even follow their own advice? Do you have a psychological need to call everyone else a hater? Does that make you feel better? Do you realize that you are not providing a good role model here?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Impertinent question, but as former IDF, how many Palestinians have you shot, personally, eee?

        • Citizen says:

          No, why should I imagine what you do? I have spelled out on this blog for a number of years that I don’t support any serial killers, even if they are state-sponsored. Many people here have been on this blog commenting much longer than you, eee. I will let them attest to whether on not I am biased because I have been commenting here for many years. Nothing I have ever said on this blog in the comment section would suggest I ever let my own country off the hook on things it does in any way similar to what Israel does. For example,
          I am all for putting the Shrub regime leaders and stinkpot enablers on trial for war crimes. Why should we leave it only for the Nuremberg defendants, or the Imperial Japan defendants? I am all for moral and ethical consistency. I do all I can to call American political leaders to account.I am neither an America hater, or an Israel hater. But I do think their regimes over scores of years really suck.

        • Shingo says:

          “Redress those first, you Israel hater.”

          There areany blogs where one can discuss US crimes as I often do. This blog happens to be about Israel.

          One can easy do both at the same time. Stop telling us what to do you fascist.

      • RoHa says:

        You might like this. eee won’t.

        link to berkeleydailyplanet.com

    • Taxi says:

      eee is a self-hating Khazar, a born in USA Israel firster who is hallucinating that Mexicans would want him on their side. It’s clear he hates America and the whole world as much as he hates Palestine.

    • the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo
      eee
      —————-
      Off topic alert!!
      What does that have to do with what this site posts or is about? Let me state it here for you eee. From Mondo’s ‘raison d’etre’ that you can find clicking on “about”:

      “About Mondoweiss

      Mondoweiss is a news website devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish perspective.

      It has four principal aims:

      1. To publish important developments touching on Israel/Palestine, the American Jewish community and the shifting debate over US foreign policy in a timely fashion;

      2. To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues;

      3. To foster the movement for greater fairness and justice for Palestinians in American foreign policy;

      4. To offer alternatives to pro-Zionist ideology as a basis for American Jewish identity.”
      ———–

      So just to make it clear EEE, that you’re a troll of the worst kind and a parasite with the sole motive of stifling debate and corrupting discussions!

    • Mooser says:

      “Why would you not start by cleaning your own house? Why are you picking on Israel instead of leading by example?”

      Bandwidth is expensive, eee! Just write No.3 (You Suck!) and No.4 (The Whole World Sucks)

      link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com

  3. “Jewish statehood was achieved through the ethnic cleansing of another people. ”

    This is false.

    Jewish statehood was achieved by settlement, hard work over decades, institution building, community building, struggle with a native population that partially accepted them, partially sought to ethnically cleanse them.

    The wars in 47-48 were only a culmination, a single struggle point. The generalization that even those wars were wars of intentional ethnic cleansing is to conflate a number of incidents and the intentional strategy of very few, into the defining characteristic of a nation.

    It just ain’t so.

    I’m sorry is called for, but walking guilt, including the naming of Israeli Independance Day jointly al-Naqba day is a falsehood, an exageration.

    Further, the walking guilt, as distinct from the proportional acknowledgement harms both the current Israeli and Palestinian community, in delaying the PRESENT reconciliations necessary.

    It is necessary for Israelis and solidarity Jews to see that there were consequences to others from our liberation and gathering, and to make the subsequent consequences as right as we can, but a sign on our breasts, “I am a dirty Jew/Zionist” is too far.

    • Chaos4700 says:

      “Jewish statehood was achieved through the ethnic cleansing of another people. ”

      This is false.

      Nakba denial, huh.

    • There is another layer of insensitivity in the article. That is the ignorance of the experience of European Jews that comprised the majority of 1948 residents, refugees mostly.

      Modern American Jews cannot imagine the state of mind of holocaust survivors, the pain and the anger and most importantly the need.

      It was youth that built Israel. Teens and twenty somethings, the children that survived. They didn’t build a society of hatred. They built a society of ideals. They took their horrid suffering, their norm, and applied their life-urge positively, building community.

      To impugn the sentiment, context, vision, motivation, commitment, work, is callous in the name of morality and liberation.

      • Chaos4700 says:

        There is another layer of insensitivity in the article.

        Oh, bullshit. You advocate that Jews should just forget that the Nakba happened, especially when it falls on the same time frame as Israel’s assault on Palestinian villages — what, coincidence? Really? — and you have the chutzpah to label the article as insensitive?

        Palestinians are INVISIBLE to Witty. Their suffering just literally doesn’t matter. Especially if it gets in the way of having a kosher weenie roast picnic.

        • Somehow,

          “It is necessary for Israelis and solidarity Jews to see that there were consequences to others from our liberation and gathering, and to make the subsequent consequences as right as we can”

          is equivalent in your mind to “forgetting that the nakba happened”.

          Very malevolent thinking on your part Chaos. It makes you sound racist.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Your the one that says that how it “the Jews” profit from it is all that should matter in recognizing the day, and I’m the racist, huh?

          Anyone else noticing how eee, yonira and Witty really aren’t all that different?

        • You are a malevolent lying fool, Chaos.

          And yes, you do express racist sentiments. It would help if you reviewed your comments before posting.

          You thug (a verb) in the name of liberation.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Hey, man, like I told BSDNow, it’s not my child who’s going to grow up wearing t-shirts with pregnant Palestinians in sniper’s crosshairs, Witty, it’s yours. The ones you indoctrinate with Zionism.

          You really are no different than people like eee. You try to flower it up with excess (and often convoluted) verbiage, but ultimately, when it comes down to it, you try to solve your rhetoric obstacles by giving the person toppling your argument a swift kick to the metaphorical balls.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Also “thug” can’t be used as a verb.

        • You are wierd Chaos.

          My kids grow up with t-shirts that speak of compassion, you insensitive and malevolent weasel.

          Further, if there is anything that my kids are indoctrinated with, its love of ourselves and our neighbors.

        • eee says:

          Right, your son will grow in the US where he will discriminate against blacks and gut pregnant women.

        • eee says:

          The former post is aimed at Chaos the racist and liar.

        • Taxi says:

          eee the self-hating Khazarian racist is on Osama’s payroll as well as the hebron fund.

          Cool to have two paycheques eh?

          Whatcha gonna with all the extra cash? Take flying lessons?

        • Mooser says:

          “My kids grow up with t-shirts that speak of compassion, you insensitive and malevolent weasel.

          He said, beating his correspondent over the head and pouring white phosphorus on his kids just to prove it!

          ROTFLMJAO!!! ROTFLMJAO!!!

        • tree says:

          I gotta admit it, Mooser, you can be hilariously right on at times!

          Although I guess here the real comedian is our faux sensitive soul, who has mastered the fine art of spreading love and compassion through name calling. But I skimmed and missed that gem, so thanks for highlighting it for me. Priceless. That’s our Witty, the humanist. The man who condemns those who condemn. Because, of course, to condemn would be wrong.

        • You know the irony of your condemnation of my condemnation of condemnation?

          That is that I knew that I was being hypocritical in the exagerated response and pointed to that conspicuous hypocrisy intentionally by my language.

          You didn’t see the humor, the self-awareness?

          You guys are gleeful about character assassination. Its a different way of being in the world to be reluctant to harm, than to be gleeful to.

        • tree says:

          Richard, you condemn consistently and un-self-consciously. You do it in some form and to some extent in nearly every comment you make here. You just did it in the very comment I am responding to. If if makes you feel better to think that in that one instance you were poking fun at yourself, go ahead and make yourself feel better, but were you doing the same thing at comment 61? Of course not. Or any of the other multiple comments you made here which contain condemnations of other commenters? You appear to be of one of the least self-aware individuals I have met online. Donald has said the same thing to you. I think others here would agree with our take. You don’t even recognize the extent to which you condemn and name call here.

          Its a different way of being in the world to be reluctant to harm, than to be gleeful to.

          You’d have some cachet in saying that if it wasn’t for the fact that you throw the name calling around so much. Practice what you preach for a week and then get back to me.

      • MRW says:

        Witty: “Modern American Jews cannot imagine the state of mind of holocaust survivors, the pain and the anger and most importantly the need.”

        Maybe American Jews can’t. But millions of WWII Russian and European refugees who were not Jews experienced this, displaced, their families wiped out, and homeless. Suffering during and from WWII was not a uniquely Jewish experience.

        • Who said differently?

        • Avi says:

          Folks, please be sensitive to the feelings of the Nazi Witty.

        • More brilliant name-calling from the local intellect and moral leader.

          The numbers of radicals is by definition miniscule. When they grow large in numbers, they either transform to liberals (responsible for next steps), or to fascists (bent on destruction, or conformity and suppression only).

          There is really no other options for radicalism.

          Volatile. At some point those radicals that actually intend change, select work to pursue, efforts. Real efforts, by definition are efforts to reform (intended to change what is broken to functional).

          Reform is what I argue for. You want to call that nazi, go ahead, it defines your own psychosis.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          More brilliant name-calling from the local intellect and moral leader.

          Compare and contrast with:

          You are a malevolent lying fool, Chaos.

          Right, Witty. Right.

      • Citizen says:

        Well, the truth is, Dick Witty, that they built Israel on the backs of the Palestinians, who were simply dismissed as not existing, although the reality was otherwise. And still is. I understand, and empathize with the pain of those jews who looked for a place to hang their hat after suffering the Shoah, distinguished (only) by the modern efficiency of the apparatus of a modern industrial state. But, get a grip on reality, the children of the survivors of the Shoah built a tribal ideal–not much different philosopically than what is contained both in Mein Kampf, and in Hitlers’s last political testament–still easily accessed on the internet. The strongest Jewish organisations’ POV, both in the USA and Israeli, differs from Hitler’s POV during is dying days–only in that
        the characters in the play switch the ( black or white) color of their hats.

      • Personally I’ve had enough of your unintelligible through the nose psycho babble snuff! Keep talking to my derriere, my head is in pain!

      • RoHa says:

        Utter bollocks!

        The Zionists knew from the start that to create their Jewish State they would need to clean out the natives. Papa Herzl himself wrote of it.

        And in the years of settlement you mentioned, the Zionists were preparing for that, and often doing it in a peicemeal fashion. When they bought land, it was restricted to Jewish use. Often, Arab tenant farmers, whose families had farmed the land for generations, were driven off the land.

    • Keith says:

      RICHARD WITTY- You talk of decades of hard work of building the Zionist infrastructure, then claim that the majority of 1948 Jews in Palestine were refugees, “holocaust survivors.” Do you see any contradiction here?

      As for Israel being built by “Teens and twentysomethings, the children that survived,” the reason is that pre-state Israel turned away older applicants in favor of the youth who better served Zionism’s purpose (2 of 3 applicants turned down).

      As for your “feel good” description of Zionist community building, please be aware that “…if you were a Zionist Jew in 1948, this meant one thing and one thing only: full commitment to the de-Arabisation of Palestine.” (Ilan Pappe) Furthermore, in carrying out the Nakba, “…special political officers would come down and actively incite the troops by demonizing the Palestinians and invoking the Holocaust….” (Ilan Pappe) In short, you are attempting to use mythology to disparage the ugly reality.

      • Malevolent pot shots huh Keith?

        If your quote of Ilan Pappe is an accurate quote, then his role as historian is greatly diminished.

        Again, presuming to know what others thought, intended. Maybe he is arguing figuratively, not literally, adding up his rhetorical personal opinion, but you taking it as objective history without any inquiry into elaboration.

        Ilan Pappe did not leave Israel at the first discovery of his conclusions, even knowing that he was the beneficiary of others’ displacement. He didn’t leave his home, his parents, his children. He thought that it was ok, even concluding what he did, probably even researching the history of the street where his home was located.

        Maybe he walks with a badge over his heart, “I am a parasite Israeli”. Maybe he walks with a badge over his heart, “I am the guilty child of a holocaust survivor, for surviving” (as many do carry with them).

        I don’t think he should, regardless of any event or action of his in his personal life.

        I believe that he should be proud of the WORK that created the Jewish state, even by people that he disagreed with severely.

        Again, a single period of tension/war does not define real history. Real history is of the many minutes, hours, days, months, years of real work.

        That is the message the supports Palestinian decency and rights. “We live here, we toiled over olive groves, we built homes, we built families, we bore children here, we buried parents and grandparents.”

        Its a gross revision of progressivism to regard politically correct condemnation as progressive, rather than decades of sacrifice and work and culture building.

        Don’t demean actual living for the ideological glee of chosen contempt.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Anyone have that article that exposes that Golda Meir advocated for the refusal of elderly Jews be allowed to emigrate to Israel? I thought I bookmarked it but I can’t find it.

        • tree says:

          Here ya go.

          link to haaretz.com

          That was the least of it. The ones they turned down prior to WWII, in favor of the young and ideologically committed, regardless of where they came from, show how truly unconcerned with helping European Jews they were unless those Jews were a help to the formation of a Zionist state.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Thanks, tree. That’s the one. Bookmarked for posterity, this time. :)

        • Shingo says:

          If your quote of Ilan Pappe is an accurate quote, then his role as historian is greatly diminished.”

          Says he who has never read a history book on the subject.

          “Again, presuming to know what others thought, intended.”

          Yes, let’s not assume that the Zionists meant what they said when they declared their plans to remove the Palestinians. Let’s not assume that Ben Gurion really meant he supported the transfer of Palestinians from Palestine, when he said he saw nothing wrong with the transfer of Palestinians from Palestine.

          “Ilan Pappe did not leave Israel at the first discovery of his conclusions, even knowing that he was the beneficiary of others’ displacement.”

          Ilan Pappe supported the existence of Israel, proving that one can still be an Israeli and be honest.

          “Again, a single period of tension/war does not define real history. Real history is of the many minutes, hours, days, months, years of real work.”

          No, minutes, hours, days, months, years of real work is what all countries do to function. It does not represent any achievement in itself. What defined real history are the choices states make.

          It goes to show another dimension to your hypocrisy. You’re a vulgar Nakba denier and yet you demand that Israel be recognized by those who suffered under the Nakba.
          Unbelievable!

        • Sumud says:

          ” proud of the WORK that created the Jewish state”

          That’s an ugly euphemism.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          “This list of Arab towns and villages that were depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus gathers about 500 items. Some areas were entirely depopulated and destroyed; others were left with a few hundred residents and were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, then renamed.”

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          “Massacres
          According to the sources, between 20 and 70 massacres occurred during the 1948 War.
          The main massacres and attacks against Jewish civilians were: the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre where 39 Jews were killed by rioters in the aftermath of an Irgun attack, and the Kfar Etzion massacre where around 120-150 surrendering defenders were killed by Arab villagers, with the possible participation of a few legionnaires.[2][3] The Hadassah medical convoy attack is also reported as a massacre because it included the mass killing of unarmed medical personnel.[2]
          On the other side, “Yishuv troops probably murdered some 800 civilians and prisoners of war”.[2] Most of these killings and massacres occurred as villages were overrun and captured during the Second phase of the Civil War, Operation Dani, Operation Hiram and Operation Yoav.[2] The “worst cases” were the Saliha massacre with 70 to 80 killed, the Deir Yassin massacre with around 100, Lydda massacre with around 250, the Al-Dawayima massacre with hundreds and the Abu Shusha massacre with 70.[4]
          According to Morris the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war[2] but Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place. He calculates that 455 people were killed at al-Dawayima including 170 women and children.[5]
          Controversy surrounds the assertion that a massacre by Israelis took place at al-Tantura.[2]

          Bombing attacks
          At the beginning of the civil war, the Jewish militias organized several bombing attacks against cilivans and military Arab targets. On 4 January 1948, the Lehi detonated a lorry bomb against the headquarters of the paramilitary Najjada located in Jaffa’s Town Hall, killing 15 Arabs and injuring 80.[6] During the night between 5 and 6 January, at Jerusalem, the Haganah bombed the Christian owned Semiramis Hotel that had been reported to hide Arab militiamen, killing 24 people including the Spanish Consul, and which may have included Iraqi irregulars (Arab militia) t.[7] (Morris also writes that the Semiramis Hotel bombing was an example of the Haganah “inadvertently employ[ing] terror”.[8]) The next day, Irgun members in a stolen police van rolled a barrel bomb[9] into a large group of civilians who were waiting for a bus by the Jaffa Gate, killing around 16.[10] Another Irgun bomb went off in the Ramla market on February 18, killing 7 residents and injuring 45.[11][12] On 28 February, the Palmah organised a bombing attack against a garage at Haifa, killing 30 people.[13]
          On 22 February 1948, supporters of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni organised, with the help of British deserters, three attacks against the Jewish community in Jerusalem. Using car bombs aimed at the headquarters of the Palestine Post, the Ben Yehuda Street market and the backyard of the Jewish Agency’s offices, they killed 22, 53 and 13 Jewish people respectively.[14][15]
          During the first months of 1948, the railway between Cairo and Haifa was often targeted. On 31 March, it was mined near Binyamina, a Jewish settlement in the neighborhood of Caesarea, killing 40 persons and wounding 60. The casualties were all civilians, mostly Arabs. Although there were some soldiers on the train, none were injured. The Palestine Post and the New York Times attributed the attack to Lehi.[

    • robin says:

      Richard, your ranting here is insane. There is no sense in which the “liberation” of Israeli Jews in 1948 did not constitute a conquest and an ethnic cleansing.

      What is Israel? A state with a majority of Jews, ruled by Jews. If it is not those things, it is not Israel, correct? Without the forcible ethnic cleansing of the vast majority of Palestinians in 1948, there would never have been a Jewish majority, nor a Jewish-ruled democracy in Israel. There is no way to separate the founding of Israel from the horrifying abuses of the Nakba. They are one and the same thing.

      Your refusal to recognize that and insistence on treating that event as cause for celebration — despite being perfectly well-informed of its significance by so many people on this blog — is what shows you to be in fact a violent, unreconstructed racist.

      • Cliff says:

        It’s a variation on the ‘desert bloom’ Zionist meme.

        The foundation of a Jewish State, as it exists in practice is a ‘Jewish democracy’; Jewish majority.

        All that clap-trap that the resident troll/propagandist wrote is bullshit. There is no Israel w/o the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

        The indigenous population was not obliged to accept invaders who stuck to themselves by and large. The instincts of the Arab population were correct – the Jews who immigrated to Palestine had their eyes on the land, and were going to usurp the Palestinians for it. It was the Zionists who drove the Palestinian into the proverbial sea.

        The triumph of pathological liars and narcissists like Richard Witty is how this big lie, desert bloom and yada yada yada Israel, has been consistently reiterated in the mainstream discourse.

        • eee says:

          Mr. Jews Corrupted Congress,

          Have you ever heard of the Indian Removal Act of 1830?

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          The foundation of the US is based on ethnic cleansing. No ethnic cleansing, no modern US.

          And in the end, you honor the ethnic cleanser by putting him on the 20 dollar bill, the most popular one! What a double faced hypocrite you are. Your country is based on ethnic cleansing and yet you dare criticize Israel.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          You don’t actually realize the double reverse irony of your idiotic statement, eee, given that Cliff is of Indian descent. (The double reversal being which “Indies” specifically),

          Are you saying that Israel is at least as barbaric as the United States of over a century ago? I’m hard pressed to disagree.

        • tree says:

          Actually, the US could have easily become a nation without the ethnic cleansing, which makes it all the more sad that it occurred. The US would have been an immeasurably better place without that. However, all Native Americans are now full citizens of the US and have been for nearly 100 years. I thought you claimed that we were the trendsetters and you in Israel jusrt copycatted us. Isn’t time for you to grant full citizenship to those you either rule over or expelled?

        • eee says:

          Tree,
          No problem, we will do that 50 years after we move the Arabs West of the Mississippi, I mean East of the Jordan (sorry got mixed up with the rivers). That way, we will be even quicker than the Americans in granting equality.

          You cannot just look back at all the things the US did in creating what it is today and say that others are not allowed to do them to create a strong nation for themselves. Israel is much more justified in the ethnical cleansing it did than the US. It is just double standards and hypocrisy to beat us on the head with it especially by an American, of any descent.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Israel is much more justified in the ethnical cleansing it did than the US.

          So where does ethnic cleansing waged by the Nazis fit on your scale of “justified?”

          I don’t think it’s hypocrisy for us, as 21st century Americans to criticize you when you yourself equate your behavior to 19th century Americans.

        • tree says:

          eee, you are aware that Hitler used the US treatment of Narive Americans to justify his treatment of Jews and Slavs, aren’t you? If you think it’s OK for the Israelis to do it, then, please explain why Nazi Germany shouldn’t have been allowed to do the same thing. See, what you are arguing for is might makes right, and when you argue that you are accepting fascist arguments.

          If you really want to play out that line of argument, then the ancient Israelites, by their own admittance, engaged in massacres and ethnic cleansing. So therefore, no one can ever get appalled at such things today because Hebrews did them thousands of years ago. Or at least that’s where your twisted logic will lead. Its a stupid argument and its not gaining you any followers. As well it shouldn’t.

        • eee says:

          Of course it is hypocrisy for you to criticize us. You used ethnic cleansing to make your state stronger. Andrew Jackson is considered one of the best presidents. Yet you beat us on the head when we explain that to get a stable state for the Jews, there was no other solution than ethnic cleansing. What does it matter when the cleansing happened? It only matters why it happened. Israel really had no choice as Morris explains well.

          And if time cures everything, then let’s wait.

        • eee says:

          Tree,

          Were the Jews waging a war against Germany and vowing to throw the Germans into the sea? Were they even demanding a national status in Germany? In fact they were loyal German citizens and fought bravely in WWI.

          The Palestinians and Jews were fighting over a small piece of land. The Palestinians for whatever reason, had just rejected UN sanctioned compromise. The Palestinians showed no willingness to accept a Jewish state and so to stop the continuation of the civil war. To get stability some Palestinians had to be removed from their land. This is far different than what the Germans did with the Jews. The situation is completely different. For the Jews the options were really ethnic cleansing or survival. That was not so in the case of the Germans.

        • Shingo says:

          “And if time cures everything, then let’s wait. ”

          Let’s not. Waiting wil just give your pathetic apartheid state more time to kill more Palestinians.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Were the Jews waging a war against Germany and vowing to throw the Germans into the sea? Were they even demanding a national status in Germany? In fact they were loyal German citizens and fought bravely in WWI.

          Rather a non-sequiter, unless you’re arguing that Native Americans were trying to throw Europeans into the sea. Were they?

        • tree says:

          You obviously don’t know your history. Hitler thought that Bolshevik Jews were waging war and had waged war against Germany. The only Jews that Hitler spoke favorably of were Zionists, and he agreed with the Zionists of the his day that Jews didn’t belong in Europe. The fact that his beliefs were untrue and appalling is beside the point, as is your avowal of what Zionists believed. You claim that because the US ethnically cleansed the Native Americans that no one can deny any other nation the “right” to do the same thing. I’m am merely pointing out the utter immorality of your argument.

        • tree says:

          I’m sure that eee would have wished that the US had stayed out of WWII. I’m sure he believes that time would have cured it all.

        • eee says:

          I am claiming that Americans have committed ethnic cleansing and in fact still honor the president that advanced it. I am claiming that the fact that a country did ethnic cleansing does not make the country illegitimate, see the US for example. I am claiming that sometime ethnic cleansing is justified if your survival is at stake. I am claiming that Americans, Australians, Canadians and citizens of several other countries have no moral standing and cannot criticize Israel for ethnic cleansing as their countries used it as a mechanism make their states stronger in cases much less justified than Israel’s.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          I am claiming that sometime ethnic cleansing is justified if your survival is at stake.

          The ends justify the means? Where have we heard that before, hmm?

        • eee says:

          Every case needs to judged on its own merits. If killing someone can be justified in self defense then obviously just moving him from his land could also be justified by self defense.

          I am not generalizing that the ends justify the means. I am saying that the ethnic cleansing in Israel’s case is justified and also more justified than the ethnic cleansing done by the US.

        • tree says:

          ….obviously just moving him from his land could also be justified by self defense.

          If the reason that you fear someone is because YOU are taking HIS land away, then that does not justify you taking his land. Actually, this is exactly the SAME justification that was used more than a hundred years ago by those taking the Native Americans’ lands away. People don’t like to have their land and livelihood stripped from them. They rightly get angry and usually fight back. This causes fear and resentment
          among those that are stealing the land. You’ve created a circular logic again.

        • Sumud says:

          “Israel is much more justified in the ethnical cleansing it did than the US. ”

          Ethnic cleansing cannot be justified, anywhere, at any time.

          Your morals are seriously fucked up.

        • Cliff says:

          Survival? Shut up you Nazi. Why should the Palestinians make way for your Jewish State?

          Ben-Gurion knew there would be no Jewish State without a Jewish majority. Fuck this BULLSHIT about ‘survival’.

          You’re a fucking criminal.

        • Shingo says:

          “If killing someone can be justified in self defense then obviously just moving him from his land could also be justified by self defense.”

          If you have the means to move someone from their land and do so agaisnt their will, then it’s in no way an act of self defense, it’s an act fo domination and agression.

          Still, you remonstrate that liberal or right wing, ethnic cleansing and murder is in the Zionist DNA.

        • Shmuel says:

          “Sometime(s) ethnic cleansing is justified … If killing someone can be justified in self defense then obviously just moving him from his land could also be justified by self defense.”

          Wow! Just when you think you’ve heard every stark-raving hasbara excuse in the book, someone comes up with something like this: “ethnic cleansing in self-defence”. It’s even better than the “it’s our turn to eradicate indigenous populations now” defence. International law (“just one tool in the service of the national interest”) sure does need some revising to keep up with these people. I suggest a conference on “Legal Justifications for Ethnic Cleansing” at a leading US university (offering “ethics” credits, of course).

        • Shmuel says:

          I suggest a conference on “Legal Justifications for Ethnic Cleansing” at a leading US university (offering “ethics” credits, of course).

          Conferences like this one, discussed by Max Blumenthal here.

      • Mooser says:

        Robin, you don’t understand anything! You’re so stupid! Listen, fool, ever eat a bagel? Is there anything else quite like it? Of course not! That’s cause it’s Jewish!! And it’s the same thing with Zionism: With bagels, Jews can bake a roll with boiling water, amazing! Well with Zionism, Jews can take land, establish a Jewish supremacy, and drive off the current inhabitants without hurting anybody!! In fact, the Palestinians will be the better for it!
        You want proof? It’s easy! Has eating a bagel ever, ever hurt anybody? Ha! Case closed!

        • RoHa says:

          A compelling argument!
          Never seen it done better. I’m certainly convinced, especially since I like good bagels. (Hard to get them in Brisbane)

    • Citizen says:

      “Jewish statehood was achieved through the ethnic cleansing of another people. ”

      Witty: This is false.

      Jewish statehood was achieved by settlement, hard work over decades, institution building, community building, struggle with a native population that partially accepted them, partially sought to ethnically cleanse them.

      And can we say the same for American settlers? I think so.
      Does that make it right? No. The difference is a matter of many decades, especially the fact of the Nuremberg Trials (and the trials of Imperial Japanese leaders–subject of a lot less verbiage since anti-semitism was not involved, not that any Chinese, for example, would
      agree with the severely disproportionate media attention over the decades), which set out new international standards for sovereign states, themselves comparatively recent arrivals on the world stage. Yes?

      Witty: The wars in 47-48 were only a culmination, a single struggle point. The generalization that even those wars were wars of intentional ethnic cleansing is to conflate a number of incidents and the intentional strategy of very few, into the defining characteristic of a nation.

      It just ain’t so.

      To boot out approximately 733, 000 Palestinian arabs, and/or scare them to leave by multiple massacres–even before the Arab armies invaded the Palestinian portion of the UN partition proposal, is a mere “matter of conflation?” Huh.

      Witty: I’m sorry is called for, but walking guilt, including the naming of Israeli Independance Day jointly al-Naqba day is a falsehood, an exageration.

      Mmmm, so how is July 4 celebrated in England? And don’t forget the tip-off if you want to go back to the old days–the war of 1812. Going on in history, I think it is rationally arguable that the doughboys were sent into WW 1 to make sure US corporations and banks got a return on their investment in England–it really was in doubt there–those U boats were a curse for the US moneybags; and don’t forget, WW1 treaty led directly to WW2….

      Witty: Further, the walking guilt, as distinct from the proportional acknowledgement harms both the current Israeli and Palestinian community, in delaying the PRESENT reconciliations necessary.

      Yeah, right Witty–care to spell who walks with guilt? Also, should they do so?

      Witty: It is necessary for Israelis and solidarity Jews to see that there were consequences to others from our liberation and gathering, and to make the subsequent consequences as right as we can, but a sign on our breasts, “I am a dirty Jew/Zionist” is too far.

      So, Witty, you think Phil or Adam, for example are American guys
      who wear a sign on their chests every morning, proclaiming, “I am a dirty Jew”? You think so little of those two guys? No wonder they rarely directly answer you on their blog.

    • Shingo says:

      Jewish statehood was achieved by settlement, hard work over decades, institution building, community building, struggle with a native population that partially accepted them, partially sought to ethnically cleanse them.”

      This is false.

      There would have been no state without ethnic cleansing of another people and lots of terrorism thrown into the mix.

      Sunny how you refer to that ethnic cleansing as “ethnic cleansing of another people”.

      “I’m sorry is called for, but walking guilt, including the naming of Israeli Independance Day jointly al-Naqba day is a falsehood, an exageration.”

      Nakba denier.

    • Donald says:

      By that “logic”, Richard, white people didn’t steal land from the Indians. They were idealists, builders, lovers of freedom, apple pie, motherhood, and so on. Any Indian displacement that occurred was just the actions of a few, not intentional, no, it couldn’t have been, look at what America has accomplished, look at the beautiful ideals, blah, blah, blah.

      Basically, because you see good in Zionism you refuse to see the evil. Susan lives up to the finest traditions of Judaism and you sit there telling us that she is uttering falsehoods.

      You could, if you chose to, try and get people here to empathize more with the Zionists in that time period, to point to the pressures they were under, and to those among them who might have wanted to live alongside Arabs in peace, but instead you choose to put your head in the sand and say “No, it didn’t happen, my beloved Zionist ideology could not have been responsible for the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arabs from their homes.” Well, it was, and you ought to stop lying to yourself. And one of those “few” involved in ethnic cleansing was Ben Gurion.

      You want reconciliation based on lies, because there are truths here you can’t face.

      • Shingo says:

        “You want reconciliation based on lies, because there are truths here you can’t face. ”

        Superbly put. It explains why Witty is so fearful of justice and actiivism. He can’t bear the throught of a light being shone on the sheletons in the Zionist closset.

    • “Jewish statehood was achieved through the ethnic cleansing of another people. ”

      This is false.

      Jewish statehood was achieved by settlement, hard work over decades, institution building, community building, struggle with a native population that partially accepted them, partially sought to ethnically cleanse them.
      —————————-
      I can’t believe you wrote that. Gloves off, asshole!

    • Sumud says:

      On your proposition that the expulsion of 3/4 million Palestinians was the outcome of ” the intentional strategy of very few” – if that were so then why would Israel not permit return of the refugees after the dust had settled?

      Nakba was and *is* government policy.

  4. I like the invocation to “find another path”.

  5. Chaos4700 says:

    Right, your son will grow in the US where he will discriminate against blacks and gut pregnant women.

    Because I think what eee said bears repeating, especially to those among us who are Jewish Americans and do not see being Jewish and being American as mutually exclusive.

    This is what Israel is saying about you.

    • Are you really sure that you want to get into loyalty issues, Chaos?

      Do you think the lynch mob will assess your politics as loyal or disloyal?

      • Chaos4700 says:

        Do you consider your children to be Americans, Witty? Does what eee said apply to you? Or do you consider them Israelis, potential if not actual — which is what I am implying?

        What means more to you, Witty? The United States? Or Israel? A fellow American like myself, or an actual fanatic like eee?

        • Mooser says:

          Chaos, Richard has got his kids so fucking scared of being Americans that when his son faced the kind of puerile, adolescent social anti-Semitism that is nothing compared to the tremendous and deadly discrimination faced by just for example, darker-skinned people, the kid ran away from America modernity and rationality.

          Me, I always considered that kind of event an opportunity for mutual connection and learning. Mostly my fists connected with their head, and they learned just how unacceptable their behavior was. Well, that’s if they were unlucky enough to be smaller than me. For those times I was subjected to anti-Semitism from those who had a physical advantage, I carried a water bottle and quickly baptised myself. That mooted the whole argument, you know? I figgered the Saving Power of Jesus Christ wore off when the water dryed up, but one of those times when my head was still soaked, I met a pretty non-Jewish girl, and well, you know.

      • Chaos4700 says:

        Although of course, that you’re already assessing the patriotism of Jewish Americans as a “lynch mob” is pretty indicative of your thoughts, I think.

    • eee says:

      “Because I think what eee said bears repeating, especially to those among us who are Jewish Americans and do not see being Jewish and being American as mutually exclusive.

      This is what Israel is saying about you.”

      This what I am saying about your arguments, except that you have serious reading comprehension problems. I am just parodying the arguments you are making to show how ridiculous they are.

      • Chaos4700 says:

        Way to backpedal. I suspect it’s a might too late, though.

        • Mooser says:

          Careful, Chaos! Good Lard, what if he left and never came back? How would you feel then? I wouldn’t want a man’s (well, a spineless invertebrate’s, anyway) death on my conscience!

          Just remember, Chaos, if eee decides there is too much anti-Semitism here, he will leave!! What would we do then? We’d be so screwed, huh?

    • Shingo says:

      “Right, your son will grow in the US where he will discriminate against blacks and gut pregnant women. ”

      Imagine replacing the words US with Israel and blacks with Muslim? eee woudl be qualiaing liek a banshee at the blood libel, especially seeing as Israel is more guilty of gutting people and stealing their organs than anyone.

  6. I cannot speak for other Jews and Zionists, but I can speak for myself. There was a time when I took offense at the term “nakba” and I must admit that the sight of the Palestinian flag (let alone the flag of Hamas) still sets my teeth on edge. I doubt that one can celebrate Yom Ha’atzmaut and Nakba Day at the same moment. One “solution” would be to celebrate Yom Haatzmaut on its Hebrew (lunar calendar) date and Nakba day on its solar calendar date. But searching for a solution to this problem through the calendar is obviously beside the point. As long as there is no peace, as long as the occupation continues and it remains an occupation of settlement rather than an occupation of security, there will be enmity between Zionists and Palestinians that will be reflected in the Independence versus Nakba dichotomy.

    Many years ago I toured the city of Tiberias and was confronted by a Palestinian youth who was filled with anger and violent intentions. I asked him if he (his people) came from Tiberias and were kicked out and he answered yes. I reacted in silence and contemplation, as if to say, “I don’t know how we will fix these facts of history.” He seemed to understand my contemplation and this disarmed his anger.

    Obviously this is no answer. In fact peace is far away and the occupation of the west bank is an occupation of settlement and not security. Part of me believes that if there is good will a compromise can be found. Currently there seems to be a lack of good will and there seems to be a high probability of much more bloodletting on the horizon.

    I do not wave the Israeli flag these days. Yet when I hear condemnation of the flag it raises my ire. And I do have pride in the birth of Israel and in its 62nd birthday. But the problems are too many to let that pride last more than a few moments.

    • MRW says:

      Thoughtful comment, WJ. I liked it.

    • Taxi says:

      This is a good example of how to disarm people by NOT DENYING THEM THEIR PROFOUND INJURIES.

      Thanks WJ for your earnest story.

      • Will you practice that?

        You’ve been insulting and threatening crudely and malevolently, even moreso than your norm.

        You do get that the holocaust, the Arab attempts at forced removal of Jews in 36-39, 47, 48, 73, the few hundred terror incidents intimately and gruesomely killing Israeli civilians, were profound injuries?

        • Taxi says:

          But doctor Witty,

          The holacaust occured in fucking Germany not the mideast!

          p.s. yes you’re right i have changed tactic today – i fucking feel like it today out of frustration at you and your members of the hebron fund bingo club who CAN NEVER stick to the points of the fucking thread.

          If ‘sabotage’ is your game – I’m fucking good at that too!

        • Yes,
          You are very good at making things fall apart faster than necessary.

        • Taxi says:

          And you’re lousy even at psuedo intellectual racism – trying in one of your posts above to equate Arab reaction to the invading violent european Khazars with the REAL holocaust that occured in Germany. Shame on you!

          Fucking slimey snakes on this thread are all over the place today.

        • Donald says:

          Witty, you see the difference between you and WJ? WJ loves Israel , but he isn’t denying the Nakba–he sees the moral complexities. You, OTOH, whenever you are faced with the subject of the most serious Zionist crimes against Palestinians, can’t help but try and change the subject to Hamas’s terror or Hamas’s alleged responsibility for the Gaza massacre or the ethnic cleansing done by Arabs. It’s reflexive. I have yet to see you admit that the Zionist side committed ethnic cleansing–whenever the subject comes up you slip around that and say that the Arabs were the real ethnic cleansers, just as you think that Hamas was the one really guilty of war crimes in the Gaza massacre. Israel was only guilty of “excessive targeting”, as you put it once.

          You are so committed to your Zionism it completely cancels out your moral sense on this subject. And on a practical level, I can imagine Palestinians being able to negotiate a peace with someone like WJ–with you I think it would be much harder. There’s too much irrationality at work. You are the rough equivalent of a Hamas leader who might be willing to negotiate peace, but when push comes to shove also believes that suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic. Pushes often come to shoves in this conflict, and so long as it is the atrocity-deniers on each side who are in charge, a just peace is going to be hard (though maybe not impossible) to reach.

        • Sumud says:

          “If ’sabotage’ is your game –”

          I think you’ve got it there Taxi. RW = white noise.

    • Chaos4700 says:

      I grudgingly acknowledge that I understand why you sometimes manage to earn respect on this blog, WJ. Your wrote an honest piece and it’s something I can respect. Something I can agree with even, mostly.

    • Mooser says:

      “He seemed to understand my contemplation and this disarmed his anger.”

      Oh, go fuck yourself, asshole. I notice you’re not suggesting that Israel actually do anything, actually make any meaningful compromises, let alone reparations.

      Ahh, but you shot and kvetched a little, so it’s all good.
      What a slimy little fucker you are.

      “Good will”? Oh, give it a rest, clown! “Good will” just means Israel gets to screw everybody, boith the Palestinians, of course, but us Americans too, right in the keister. “Good will” is wasted on Zionists.

    • Shmuel says:

      Thanks, WJ, for a very thoughtful comment.

      There was a post yesterday about an article (by Sam Green) criticising young, non/anti-Zionist Jews for cutting themselves off from their communities, on which I remarked that I felt that my community had cut me off, making it impossible for me to identify and participate.

      The anniversary of my father’s death is the day after Yom Ha’atzmaut, and every year, when I go to the synagogue to say kaddish on that day, I find the sanctuary decorated from the previous day’s celebration (eg. the everyday curtain on the ark is replaced with a giant, embroidered Israeli flag). I have stopped going, although my father was a very religious man, and my saying a prayer in his memory is important to me. Were the community to at least acknowledge the Nakba in some form, I think I could handle the physical evidence of a celebration that deeply offends me. Without such recognition however, and considering the community’s jingoistic support for Israel, I have no choice but to avoid such a “house of ill repute” (to paraphrase Isaiah).

      An alternative, “liberal” community was founded last year. Initially, I took an interest, but soon found that the word “liberal” referred only to matters of ritual. A couple of us asked the rabbi about the new community’s views on Israel, and he replied that support for Israel is a sine qua non of modern Judaism. The “liberal” community’s lay leader later published one of the most shameful defences I have seen, of Israel’s massacre in Gaza.

      • Shmuel- Thanks for your reaction.
        Many years ago when driving a cab in NYC, my partner on the cab (I drove days and he drove nights) was a Palestinian. There was one point when I realized that he spoke Hebrew and I tried to talk to him in Hebrew, but he rebelled against this. It became clear to me that Hebrew to him was a language of the cops, of the soldiers, of the occupier. His raw reaction alerted me to an exposed nerve, to the rawness of the situation.
        Obviously it will require more than good will. When defusing a bomb, it is enough to pull the wires apart, or in some movies to choose which wire to cut and if you choose right (50-50) the problem is solved. The problem is not nearly that simple in this case.

        • WJ
          What adds insult to injury, what hurts even more so, is that the Palestinian all along has been and is denied a justification for his actions/reactions violently or not (see Richard’s abject comment!). People love “their” victims to be of the cute and compliant kind, a la Tibetienne. Now you’re talking of lovely ones who warrant support!

        • The violent approach has been tried, and has failed miserably. It has driven Palestinians further and further from any definition of their goal.

          What has proceeded towards their goal is the undeniable work of institution-building and reconciliation that Fayyad and Abbas have led, facing great and unnecessary obstacles from the likud government.

          But, the approach of terror and violence has resulted directly in the exagerated Israeli responses of border closure, very violent military attacks, roadblocks, etc.

          It is addictive to repeat an approach that results in 3 steps backward for every step forward. How much further backwards can you suggest that Palestinians go?

    • Sumud says:

      Yes, thoughtful, in fact I agree with your sentiments mostly, and am happy to hear that you are “alive” on the issue of I/P and open to changing your views upon new information. I can also see where Mooser’s rage is coming from.

      Where I’d question your post wondering jew, is that you frame the Nakba as an historical event when it is not, it is very much alive today, for all Palestinians. Not white hot as in 1948, but still: the refugees and their descendants are denied their rights, those in the West Bank/East Jerusalem are under constant threat by the occupation and it’s nefarious apparatus, Gaza is under siege and unable to even begin recovering from the Massacre, and the “lucky” Palestinians who are Israelis citizens are a third class, discriminated against in law and beyond, and who by definition are outsiders in the jewish state – which happens to also be their historic homeland.

      To your statement “I don’t know how we will fix these facts of history”. Do you really not know? Do you want to fix these facts, or is Mooser correct? History can’t be changed, duh, but the Nakba must end. Are you working to bring that about?

      On pride. I’ll tell you, while I know there’s a lot Israel has to be proud of, I’m not interested in hearing *anything* about it, not when it is deployed as a weapon. Israel is a colonial power, the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and everywhere else with hasbara.It’s one kind of colonialism designed to conceal another. There’ll be plenty of time for string quartets, after.

      • “Deployed as a weapon”. I guess some approach their accomplishments in that light.

        Dismissing that generally, “I’m not interested”, is a way to deny the existence of the other. It is not a just approach, only an approach oriented to some victory, and in this case of set as either/or, then at some other civilians’ expense.

        I hear in your post “I’m not interested”, a repetition of what you assert you oppose. Am I hearing accurately?

        I appreciate that you have a present-forward attitude. What is your goal?

        You asked me why I post here, which I answered candidly. Why do you post here?

        • Sumud says:

          No, you are not hearing accurately.

          You missed the “if/when”. If it is to be deployed as a weapon – and it is, then I am not interested. That is not a denial of the other, it is a refusal to participate in the intended deception. There are Israelis who I admire greatly: those working to bring about the end of the occupation: the human-rights activists and demonstrators, the journalists, the bloggers, the soldiers who say “no”, the lawyers and so on. By their actions they do much more to combat anti-semitism than some obsolete blowhard like Abe Foxman.

          I do anticipate a victory, that of [trumpets] justice over tyranny. It isn’t a new struggle, nor is it unjust. My goal most broadly is the resolution of the I/P conflict, based on a common framework of international law. I believe this is the only way deliver justice will be delivered to the Palestinians, without it there will be no peace.

          I post here I because I find the content / discussion generally interesting, more engaging than many of the other online fora. As an aside I’m an atheist of christian heritage (ie not a lot of contact with judaism), so I appreciate hearing some jewish voices and perspectives.

          I’ve responded elsewhere in this thread as to what I see are your motivations. A text search for “motherhood” will get you there.

  7. My pride lasts during my entire life, even at others’ work.

    Apology and pride can exist in the same moment, the same thought even.

    The pride and hope can motivate solving the problems. One thing about despondency, resignation, guilt, is that it is disempowering.

    A portion of radical dissent is intended to get you to give up, to not seek reform, to not invest in the current improvement of Israeli condition and character.

  8. Avi says:

    Now I am seen as one of “those people” who insists on bringing up the “N” word each year as we plan for Yom Ha’Atzmuut (Israel Independence Day).

    I understand the centrality the concept of a Jewish state may play in your life and the lives of many Jewish Americans who need that illusion, but why would you actually celebrate a foreign country’s independence day as if it were your own?

    One would hope you celebrate the fourth of July (assuming of course you’re an American).

    Personally, I commemorate Bastille Day which falls on the 14th of July each year as it is a reminder of the centrality personal freedom plays in our lives.

    And on the 14th of May I make a donation to a Palestinian human rights organization to offset the atrocities facilitated by the cash flow from America’s dual loyalists to Israeli apartheid.

  9. Take Action NOW: Support Divestment at UC Berkeley‏
    From: US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation ([email protected])
    Sent: Tue 4/13/10

    Tomorrow the Associated Students of the University of California Berkeley (ASUC) will cast its final vote on whether to divest from two corporations profiting from Israeli occupation and apartheid. This means that you have one last chance to support the divestment resolution by asking ASUC student senators to overturn their president’s veto of the resolution.
    To send a message urging ASUC student senators to support divestmentlink to salsa.democracyinaction.org

  10. olive says:

    ‘Among the Righteous:’ Arabs Saving Jews in the Holocaust | The Middle East Channel

    Among the Righteous: Lost Stories from the Holocaust in Arab lands,” is a new documentary I made in partnership with MacNeil-Lehrer Productions, airing tonight on PBS. It retells largely forgotten stories from World War II in North Africa of Arabs who saved their Jewish neighbors from the Holocaust — a story which Holocaust historiography has largely left untouched. The documentary digs into history to uncover not only cases of Jewish persecution in North Africa similar to the Jewish experience in Europe, but also stories of the “righteous” Arabs that protected Jews. Filmed in eight different countries stretching from Morocco to Israel, the documentary reveals surprising discoveries about the past that can help challenge how Arabs and Jews alike view this part of Holocaust history.

    The documentary airs tonight on PBS at 10 p.m. eastern time.

    taken from link to yursil.com

    • Thanks for doing so. There was a period when Muslims frequently courageously and unconditionally offered Jews sanctuary from assault.

      That happens sometimes now, but far far far less frequently.

      The oppossite occurs more frequently, that Muslims feel justified in assaulting or harming Jews, individually or en masse, because of their sympathy with Israel, amazingly.

      That someone would bear that degree of remote hatred is beyond me.

      I hope it restores. I hope that Muslims and Jews come to recognize that their common worship of the ONE, is more profound and reliable than their differences over where whom settles.

      I don’t know if Islam will rise to the challenge, or if they will permanently regard Jewish presence in Jerusalem as a rock in their shoe.

      Individual neighbors may provide sanctuary, but the community of Islam no longer has that reputation of universal and unconditional generosity.

      • Chaos4700 says:

        The oppossite occurs more frequently, that Muslims feel justified in assaulting or harming Jews, individually or en masse, because of their sympathy with Israel, amazingly.

        Refresh our memory. How many Jews did Arabs push into gas chambers last year?

        You’re little more than a watered down Islamophobe, masquerading as a peace activist when what you really are, is someone who has an irrational fear of a Muslim hatred for Jews that never existed at the intensity you imagine. Or if it has, you aren’t willing to confront the fact that the anger comes as a reaction to the atrocities that Zionist militants commit in the name of Judaism.

        • eee says:

          How quickly the Hebron Massacre is forgotten. What was the motive then?
          link to en.wikipedia.org

          Or how about the massacres after the Damascus affair in 1840?
          link to en.wikipedia.org
          Massacres of Jews by Muslims were recorded in Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901-02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901-07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874) – these are just key cases.

          Were these also because of militant Zionists you pathological liar?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          From the article on the Damascus affair:

          In the economic struggle between the Jews and the Christians, each side needed the backing and support of the Muslim majority, and tried to incite the Muslims against the opposite group. The Christians in Damascus complained about cruel treatment by the qadis. Fearing a wave of Muslim violence following the return of the Ottoman regime to Syrian rule, they enlisted priests from Catholic orders, including the Franciscans and the Capuchins. The priests brought with them the blood libel myth.

          So who are you blaming, again?

        • eee says:

          The countless massacres of Jews by Muslims is the blame of the Jews of Damascus because they wanted to be more successful in business than the Christians. Yeah, right.
          How can you even equate economic struggle with murder?
          Do you even read what you post?

        • Shingo says:

          “How quickly the Hebron Massacre is forgotten. What was the motive then?”

          Some posted this recently:

          ” As best as I can tell from various sources, the massacre had its origin in fear and resentment towards the Zionists. Hebron was a reaction to the violence that erupted in Jerusalem a few days prior to it, which was created by tensions between the indigenous non-Jewish population and the newly arrived Zionists, and reached a deadly boiling point after a Zionist demonstration at the Wailing Wall which included the raising of the Zionist flag. Both Arabs and Jews were killed in nearly equal measure in the few days of violence that consumed Jerusalem, but hasbarists won’t mention that because it doesn’t fit the narrative of poor innocent Jews slaughtered by Arabs, since both sides engaged in horrendous acts there.

          According to all accounts, the massacre in Hebron was mostly instigated by those living outside of Hebron, apparently on having heard rumors of Jews killing Arabs in Jerusalem. (Which were true, but Arabs were likewise killing Jews as well at the same time.) Over a third of the dead were yeshiva students from a Lithuanian yeshiva set up in Palestine in 1924. The majority of dead were Ashkenazi (European Jews), but there were a few Sephardic Jews killed as well. Most of the Jews of Hebron survived by seeking shelter with Arab friends and their families. Most of the 400 or so Jews left immediately after the massacre, but many had returned by 1930. The British were the ones who ordered all Jews out of Hebron in 1936, claiming that they could not protect them in Hebron during the Arab Revolt that started in that year. One Jew remained, unmolested, until he decided to leave in 1947 in the wake of the Partition Plan which alloted Hebron to the Arab State.

          As far as I have read, there were no bans on Jews remaining in the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli citizens were not allowed, but there were no restrictions on Jews, per se, living there, as there were for Palestinians living in what became Israel. I don’t think you can call what happened to the Jews in Hebron ethnic cleansing. It was a murderous riot but it was not ethnic cleansing.

          In any case, in the early ’90s, Hebron’s mayor issued a formal invitation to the descendants of Hebron’s Jews to reclaim any property they lost and live freely in Hebron. Israel has so far stubbornly refused to take the same simple step.
          I still find it rather surprising that so many Israelis can be so un-empathetic (or is it narcissistic?) that they can’t understand why the indigenous population would be antagonistic towards foreigners who declare that they want to rule the country as a Jewish state when most of its inhabitants weren’t Jews. Its really a simple concept to understand, and yet it seem beyond most Israelis and even many American Jews ability to grasp.”

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Why did you link the article? You linked analysis that you now denounce?

        • eee says:

          The Arabs killed in Jerusalem were NOT by the Jews. They were killed by the British. The Hebron Jews were murdered for NO JUSTIFIED reason. Resentment and fear are no reason for murder.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Agreed.

          So why did your grandparents try to kill the Palestinians and wipe out hundreds of their villages? Why do you think it’s justified when Jews use that motivation to commit acts of violence?

        • Shingo says:

          “The Arabs killed in Jerusalem were NOT by the Jews. They were killed by the British.”

          Yes they were.

        • tree says:

          Tom Segev,

          Arab spokesmen reported acts of terror perpetrated by Jews, including the lynching of Atab passersby and the murder of womenand children. In a few cses, the Arabs claimed, Jews attacked people who had given them refuge. The Jewish Agency investigated some of these charges and conclude that “in siolated cases” there were Jews “who shamefully went beyond the limits of self-defense.” One memorandum reporting that Jews had boken into a mosque and set sacred books on fire bears a scribbled note: “This unfortunately is true.” When the violence finally subsided, 133 Jews and 116 Arabs were dead; 339 Jews and 23 Arabs were injured.

          from “One Palestine Complete”.

          Resentment and fear are no reason for murder. I;d say they are common reasons, but not acceptable justifications. You however, have cited fear and resentment as a justification of the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine, which included many massacres of Palestinians. Your double stnadard is showing yet again.

        • eee
          Muslims are a blood thirsty lot, especially for Jewish blood. Go and have a rest or a cup of coffee now, all this frothing must have dried up your mouth…

      • olive says:

        Witty, one of the reasons why I posted that link (the date for it airing has passed, btw) was to show the absolute ingratitude of many Jews for the protection that Muslims gave them before and during the Holocaust.

        I suspect many Zionists wish that Muslims had the kind of historical baggage that Christian Europe had. That way, Zionists could escape the uncomfortable reality of biting the hand that feeds you. Of course, this is not to say that the Muslims never had crazy Caliphs and silly Sultans, either.

        I only wish that Jews who are now in a position of political and military power, would reciprocate that historical Muslim compasion. You cannot pretend to be the victim forever.

        • olive says:

          I will also admit that one can now find many Muslims in the world believing in old Jewish stereotypes. This, of course, is due to Israeli actions. I mean, do you remember the anti-Japanese rhetoric that was very popular during WW2. Now imagine what kind of anti-Japanese rhetoric one would find in the US if the Japs actually won the war and annexed over 80% of the United States?

        • eee says:

          Beautiful. Justifying Muslim antisemitism because of Israel’s actions.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          You have claimed that Israel was justified to ethnically cleanse around 500 Palestinian villages. Even your statement was true (it’s not) how would you be any different?

          Oh that’s right. Because you’d be party to an actual pogrom rather than merely talking about another group of people.

        • I too wish that Jews and Israelis could protect individual and collective Muslims that are threatened.

          Its difficult when such hatred is stated towards Israel.

          The hatred expressed is too often independant of the individuals’ actual experiences.

          When many conclude that they indivdiually have the right to hold others “accountable”, without trial, the revenge exceeds even an eye for eye.

          Collective punishment in a word.

        • olive says:

          I don’t think I’m justifying Muslim Jew-hatred. I am merely providing a contex for some of these attitudes. To me, condemning Muslim anti-Semitism is the same as condemning the anti-Germanism of Polish Jews: The attitude is bad, but it would be really unhelpful on our part to demand that they drop this attitude before resititution by the oppressor is done.

        • olive says:

          With that said, eee, I wonder what you have to say about Islamophobia and anti-Arabism among many Jews?

        • I can see Palestinians whose families have been directly affected being angry.

          I don’t understand the anger, the hatred to the point willing personal violence, of those that have never been affected negatively by Israelis and/or Jews.

          How do you understand that in any sympathetic way?

        • tree says:

          How do you understand the anger and hatred of Jews who have never been personally affected negatively by non-Jews? I suspect you understand it quite well. Your problem is that things that you can understand perfectly when Jews do them you find utterly baffling when non-Jews do them. The motivations, surprise, surprise, are usually universal. Jews are no special case.

        • It happened in North Africa during WW2, AND the oppossite happened, where Jews were intentionally turned in to the naziis.

          I know people that were sheltered in Europe by Poles and Hungarians, even as a large number of Poles and Hungarians turned in Jews that were hiding.

          Its important for Jews to hear about. Its also important for you to be proud of, not resentful about. It dishonors the individuals charity. I’d be VERY surprised if the individuals didn’t remember the help gratefully all of their and their children’s lives.

        • olive says:

          I think these feelings stem from the Messenger (peace be upon him) saying:

          “The Muslim Nation is like one body. If the eye is in pain then the whole body is in pain and if the head is in pain then the whole body is in pain”.

          And I must say that Israel really is one BIG pain….

          Besides, using your logic Witty, we should be baffled at why American Jews hate Palestinians so much since they have not personally been at the brunt of any violence by the Palestinian resistance…

        • So, you’re saying that Muslims have the right to express hatred violently towards Jews out of sympathy for something that they believe was done to another Muslim somewhere in the world?

          Jews did not take revenge out on Germans even though they hated them, and you know very well that genocide was far far far more extreme, arbitrary, brutal, than what Palestinians experience.

          Palestinians sufferings, traumas, angers are real and justified. Their violence is not.

        • Good switch.

          The math of that logic is that the 200 million Muslims then have religious authoritative permission to apply violence in response to a wrong by 1ooo Jews.

          That is the formula for mass genocide, justification.

          Sympathy for unity is one thing. Permission to violence is another thing entirely.

        • yonira says:

          Much of that ‘pain’ comes from within Olive. Israel has become the scapegoat for the entire Muslim world.

        • olive says:

          “Jews did not take revenge out on Germans even though they hated them”

          Are you aware of the Jewish Nazi-hunters post WWII, like Simon Weisenthal?

          “and you know very well that genocide was far far far more extreme, arbitrary, brutal, than what Palestinians experience.”

          I will paraphrase Norman Finkelstein who says that it is “demented” to compare a Jewish girl being incinerated in an oven and a Palestinian girl being incinerated by white phospherous. He said that only mentally “demented” people would try to quantify this type of suffering.

          “Palestinians sufferings, traumas, angers are real and justified. Their violence is not. ”

          Even the UN says that occupied peoples have a right to self-defence.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          That is the formula for mass genocide, justification.

          As opposed to Zionism, Witty? As opposed to the belief that Israel must be made “clean” and ready for Jews, by ANY MEANS NECESSARY, as eee as expressed?

        • Mooser says:

          “Beautiful. Justifying Muslim antisemitism because of Israel’s actions.”

          Damn, what a mistake I made when I rejected Zionism! It’s the ultimate get-out-of-jail free card! See, mosts Zionist are Jewish, so if anybody anywhere for any reason, ever objects to a Zionist action, well boys, you know the drill!

        • tree says:

          Jews did not take revenge out on Germans even though they hated them…

          Not true. There were Jews who took revenge against Germans after the war, and those who attempted to.

          Survivor reveals 1945 plan to kill 6 million Germans

          You keep wanting to ascribe to Jews some kind of exceptionalism that implies that all Jews are somehow incapable of acting out of the kind of hate and malice that is one of humanity’s most universal defects. Jews can be just as base and vengeful as anyone else, and yet you make excuses for Jews that you would never countenance for non-Jews. You excuse Jewish violence as the result of trauma, and fear, but won’t extend the same understanding to non-Jewish violence.

        • The plan was not done. The plan to kill as many Jews in terror attacks around the world and in Israel WAS done by Hamas, Hezbollah (earlier), other factions over an extended period of time.

          And, what do you urge, knowing that your match might be the one that ignites the gasoline?

          Or, does that motivate you to be more careful, more sensitive in your use of language, your invocation of emotions, in consideration of complex historical facts.

        • tree says:

          The plan to poison was done in its lesser form. It was just not as successful as the perpetrators had hoped. This was not the only attempt, but it was perhaps the largest scale effort and certainly one of the most famous. You claimed it never happened, because no Jews sought revenge on Germans, and yet you are wrong, it did happen . And your reaction to hearing that it happened is to minimize it and to insist that I should not have mentioned it.

          You are doing it again, acting as if Jews are not like any other humans, that they can not be consumed by revenge, or engage in hate, while simultaneously implying it is second nature to non-Jews. I am pointing out that you made a false statement. You find that uncomfortable because it conflicts with your belief in Jewish exceptionalism. I am not “invoking emotions”, I am acknowledging and urging you to acknowledge that Jews are no worse or better than any other group of humans. Their violence is no more excusable than anyone else’s. I have no match, there is no gasoline. I would only ask you to be more sensitive to the truth and not seek to whitewash it. It is you who is playing with matches by seeking to place Jews on a pedestal where they don’t belong. Jews as a group belong at the same level as anyone else, no higher, no lower.

        • If Jewish energy had not been focused in the direction of creating a state (which involved terrible consequences to the innocent Palestinians), there would have been (in my opinion) a far more extensive vengeance campaign against the German people from the Jewish people.

        • Palestinians sufferings, traumas, angers are real and justified. Their violence is not.
          Richard
          ———————–
          It’s true that they should have turned the left cheek. Damn them violent bastards.

        • Olive,
          If it is demented to equate quantitatively suffering that is equally psychologically traumatic, it is certainly demented to justify in any way, any pride or acceptance, of the collective punishment enacted in the name of Muslim unity/sympathy.

          You saying “I don’t apologize for some Muslim’s cruelty. I wouldn’t do it (I hope)”, is exactly what I am called names for here.

          We both lie low periodically, rather than effectively and sensitively compel (more than urge) the best in our communities.

        • Its true that they should have found a non-ruthless method to assert themselves.

          The distinction between anger and crime is that crime is enacted.

        • “If it is demented to equate quantitatively suffering that is equally psychologically traumatic”
          ———
          Gee, I wish I, too, were on psycho babble crack. I would sound as “smart” and “articulate” as Witty..

        • The distinction between anger and crime is that crime is enacted.
          ——————
          Hang on a sec. Where is that sick bag when you need one?

        • Its true that they should have found a non-ruthless method to assert themselves.
          Richard W
          ——————
          It would have only made the job for the Israelis much easier.. violence/non violence and whatnot, all that is accessory; the aim, the goal and the intent was clear from the beginning. Land land land . ALL of Palestine..The “Arabs” were more or less a nuisance, “un accident de parcours”, a deflated tyre on the road to absolute domination..

        • Shingo says:

          “Much of that ‘pain’ comes from within Olive. Israel has become the scapegoat for the entire Muslim world. ”

          On the contrary. The Muslim world has become the scapegoat for Israeli and Western crimes.

        • Shingo says:

          “‘The plan to kill as many Jews in terror attacks around the world and in Israel WAS done by Hamas, Hezbollah (earlier), other factions over an extended period of time.”‘

          False. No Jews were killed by Hamas outside fo Palestine or Hezbollah outside of Lebanon.

        • Your digging for petty things to question.

          The content was of decades of terror by Palestinians to draw attention to Palestinian issues, then to terrorize for some odd unknown reasons, all severely calling into question the willingness of Palestinians to treat Jews and Israelis as human beings.

          Hezbollah was accused of a large bombing in Argentina, which is not conclusive whether it was Hezbollah, or an independant sympathizer. There were other reported incidents of Hezbollah attempted terror attacks on Israelis.

          In the 70′s there were multiple terror attacks, a few dozen plane hijackings, Munich, embassy bombings, and other.

          Terror is terror. It is unreasonable to rationalize for it. Better for Hamas and other factions to apologize for it.

        • You think?

          Its not what I hear from your comments, from others, from actions.

          You believe that the Muslim world has an appreciative and respectful attitude towards Jews and towards Israel?

          Or, is are many many unrelated problems in the Muslim world blamed on Zionism?

        • Donald says:

          On the subject of Munich, I’ve provided a link to the “Angry Arab’s” review of that movie, where he goes into the history of Israeli brutality before Munich.

          You talk as though Palestinian terror occurred in a vacuum–it occurred in a context where 700,000 Palestinians were expelled and not allowed back and when thousands had been murdered.

          I think Palestinian groups involved in terror should apologize for their terrorism, but coming from you this is rich–you can’t even bring yourself to admit the Nakba (it’s only Arabs you condemn as ethnic cleansers) and you think Hamas was more guilty of war crimes in the Gaza massacre than Israel. You ask why others post here–I think you post in part because of some obsessive need to rewrite history, to scream against truths that hurt you to see acknowledged.

          angry arab review of Munich

        • Sumud says:

          “I don’t understand the anger, the hatred to the point willing personal violence, of those that have never been affected negatively by Israelis and/or Jews.”

          Who and where are the Palestinians who have not been effected negatively by Israel?

        • Sumud says:

          “Survivor reveals 1945 plan to kill 6 million Germans”

          Shocking article. I note Ben-Gurion’s objections weren’t to do with wanting to murder 6 million people, only that it might complicate his plans for Israel.

        • That was in the wider Muslim world. The 1 billion that have by sympathy or by religious inference or decree, the implied permission to harm Jews in the general world, because of the presence of Zionism in the world.

          Where Zionism is the stimulating motive or rationalization for attacks on individual Jews, that is what is stated and apologized for.

        • Thankfully only a very small minority adopt that maximalist sympathy.

          But, there is very little public Muslim condemnation, very little visible urging by leaders and/or activists, to NOT act violently.

          I’m sure it is discussed at dinner tables, as was commented on earlier on a question “What should we talk about this Passover?” around Jewish tables. I hope so at least, in the name of OPPOSING collective punishment.

        • Donald,
          I think my analysis of the significance of Hamas actions in the Gaza war of 2008, is accurate.

          It is a little different than your description of “blaming Hamas” again through your window of judgement of others rather than examination into choices, and recommendations for more effective ones.

          The basis that Hamas will come to be regarded as a viable and respectable and respected organization, will be based on the choices that it makes.

          I think it made bad ones, ones motivated by anger more than strategy in 2008. I think that it had learned prior, in mostly keeping to the cease-fire, and has learned since, in restraining shelling of Israeli civilians.

          I think Israel made bad ones as well, and thank those that have pointed that out in the context of bad decisions, rather than the context of criminal judgementalism.

          By the standard of criminality, Arafat would never have been a viable political leader, or Begin or Shamir, elected or not.

          I don’t know the personal history of Haniyeh or Meshal (not elected), to comment.

          I think Hamas was morally guilty of shifting the status of the skirmishes to overt war by escalating shelling incrementally but continuously until Israel responded militarily. I think it exposed civilians to punishment by hiding after baiting Israel to attack.

          I see the truths that you wish that I see (most of them, my reading is limited to a lot, less than everything, everything relevant even). I see more complexity though, that makes me not add up the truths in the manner that you judge, and then willingly condemn and ridicule.

          If you are interested in making change, changing willing behaviors, then you have to take into your math the attitudes of those that you are dissenting against, how and why they come to their stubborness.

          In the case of Israel, it is analyzable, traceable. And, a very very large portion of that is Hamas gruesome terror, really intimate, intentional.

          And, because it is traceable, it is also possible to unknot, if that is intended.

          I don’t believe that it is possible to cut the knot. Israel is too powerful militarily, and rationally politically. (The idiocies of right-wing thinking create exceptions to fundamental sympathy, but not fundamental delegitimazation.)

          There is no possibility of a mass BDS movement for example that remains humane to be effective in this context.

          It can only happen by persuasion, including frank and determined dissent, but not punitive dissent.

        • Sumud says:

          Actually Donald that was me that initially asked RW his reasons for posting at MW, at this article:

          link to mondoweiss.net

          I asked because, his presence is rather nebulous at MW. He issues motherhood statements and mouths word of peace, which I have come to believe are not genuine. He questions uncontroversial facts eg. telling me he didn’t believe the UN refer to the 22% as the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

          Over time I’ve come to see his role is to interrupt, not contribute. The depth of discussion suffers in his presence. It is a white noise disturbance. I see no “daylight” between the Israeli obsession with incitement and his peculiar position that it is in fact peace activists who are preventing a resolution of the I/P conflict. Resistance of any sort is not permitted within Palestine, or without apparently.

          On this thread he’s been a little vicious, exposing his islamaphobia. It’s ugly if at least a little more real than the faux-dove posing.

    • RoHa says:

      I love the implied definition of “righteous”!

      • Shmuel says:

        I love the implied definition of “righteous”!

        Sticks in my craw too. The official “righteous of the nations” (incorrectly borrowed from Maimonides) bugs me even more.

    • Sumud says:

      It’s based on a 2006 book by Robert Satloff.

      link to amazon.com

      The Washington Post review @ Amazon is worth a read for the mental gymnastics:

      “Robert Satloff is a man with a mission. He believes that if contemporary Arabs knew about Arabs who rescued Jews during the Holocaust, they would reject the Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism that are now so prevalent in the Arab/Muslim world. This book tells of his quest to track down the history of those Arabs’ deeds.”

      My thoughts on reading that were along the lines of “some of Israel’s muslim-hating fans would benefit from a read also”. Perfect timing: in the final third the reviewer sticks the knife in both muslims and author Satloff. The range of opinions in the muslim Middle East on the holocaust ranges “from crude Holocaust celebration (in which Hitler is a hero) to Holocaust denial.” Anybody who has left their armchair will see the fiction in that. The author is “naive” for even trying, it is impossible to counter “irrational hatred” and the telling of history “will not change the minds of those whose views of history are rooted in unreasoning bigotry”, though the history is real and denies that unreasoning bigotry.

      • Danaa says:

        There was actually a program on TV (forget which channel now) that featured Satloff and his quest for the “righteous arabs” – mostly in Tounisia. It did mention that by and large the relationaship between Jews and arabs there were quite good – up until 1950 or about, when Israel soured it all. Interestingly, there was no mention in the program of any “anti-semitism” in Tounisia or Morroco on the part of the residents in those countries, who appeared quite resistant to the Germans in general. I know little about what happened in North Africa during those years so I found the program interesting, and didn’t find too much to fault – up until the end, when there were the obligatory quips by Arabic descendents of the “righteous” about “living in peace”, blah, blah.

        One other interesting thing near the end – Satloff campaigned to get the Arab righteous included in the garden of the righteous at Yad Vashem. Without success, apparently – something about not enough proof, etc. but no details were given as to what the road blocks may have been. Cut out to Peres, quoted saying that he would be quite “happy” to recognize arabs who may be righteous. And some other israeli saying the same. Isn’t this great of them? then, at the very end, there was a ceremony in a synagog at DC where a memorial stone to the Arabic righteous person (Khader? forgot the name now) was added – as a result of Satloff’s efforts.

        And thus was peace in the world restored…..

        I think that some of Satloff’s more incendiary comments about arab “anti-semitism” may have been left on the cutting room floor. The program was not too bad, all in all.

  11. Les says:

    Is it conceivable that at this year’s Yom Kippur the names of the Palestinians killed by Israel during the year may be read aloud?

    • eee says:

      Is it conceivable that in the US on memorial day you will aloud all the names of native Americans you killed? If not, why not?

      • Chaos4700 says:

        If you actually knew anything substantial about American history, you’d know that on Memorial Day we also honor Navajo code talkers, among others.

      • Taxi says:

        You think that your constant pointing of finger at Americans actually distracts from Israeli war crimes?

        Your hatered of America and all things American, eventhough YOU ARE an American, is evident.

        Your best friend with Osama by any chance?

        You sure got a lot in common with him and his merry pilots. (Taken any flying lessons lately?)

        • eee says:

          It certainly shows how hypocritical you are. Concentrating on Israel’s “crimes” while what you did and are doing is much worse. FIX YOUR OWN HOME. Why do you even think you have the moral standing to criticize anyone while your troops are gutting pregnant women?

        • Taxi says:

          Like Reagan was once famous for saying, my self-hating Khazarian friendo:

          “There you go again”. And again and again and again….

          The reality is: no one is questioning America’s right to exist within it’s current borders except jelous zionist American zealots. Yet MOST OF THE WORLD TODAY IS QUESTIONING ISRAEL’S RIGHT TO EXIST.

          Khazars in the holy lands will soon face the same choice that the Algerians gave the French: “The suitcase or the coffin?”

        • eee says:

          Who would question the world’s superpower?

          Israel has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries. Very few people question our right to exist.

          Since 1948 the Arabs have been offering us “The suitcase or the coffin”. If these will be the only options, we choose the coffin, but not for us. Don’t say afterwards you were not warned about giving this ultimatum. Instead, let’s try getting the two state solution off the ground. With violence you will achieve nothing.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Who would question the world’s superpower?

          Your country does. All the time. The Obama administration has been veritably humiliated, and Israel’s lack of cooperation with the nuclear disarmament talks will likely cause them to fail.

          Since 1948 the Arabs have been offering us “The suitcase or the coffin”.

          Maybe that’s because in 1948, your people put over half of the Arabs in your country in suitcases, or coffins?

        • Taxi says:

          I thought Arabs since ’48 have been offering to push you into the sea?

          Make yer topsy-turvy mind up will ya!

          Global poll after global poll registers Israel as the most hated country – because of their crimes against humanity!

          I’d like to see your hebron fund bingo club NOT PACK their suitcases when chemical and biological warfare hits the hills in the holy land. You’re misguided to think this ain’t coming. Oh it’s coming, not because I say so but because the real semites of the region will do everything in their power to get their Jerusalem back – even if you settle the whole city & WB, you think it stops there fool?

          They’re setting you up for the big one in such a way that the whole world will understand and support their eventual action.

        • eee
          Off topic alert!!
          What does that have to do with what this site posts or is about? Let me state it here for you eee. From Mondo’s ‘raison d’etre’ that you can find clicking on “about”:

          “About Mondoweiss

          Mondoweiss is a news website devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish perspective.

          It has four principal aims:

          1. To publish important developments touching on Israel/Palestine, the American Jewish community and the shifting debate over US foreign policy in a timely fashion;

          2. To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues;

          3. To foster the movement for greater fairness and justice for Palestinians in American foreign policy;

          4. To offer alternatives to pro-Zionist ideology as a basis for American Jewish identity.”
          ———–

          So just to make it clear eee, that you’re a troll of the worst kind and a parasite with the sole motive of stifling debate and corrupting discussions!

        • Chaos4700 says:

          I’d like to think, Taxi, that it won’t come to chemical or biological warfare. Or at least, I have a pretty good idea who actually has massive stockpiles and the lack of moral courage to not use them, especially in the Holy Land.

          But I do get the sense the Israel has made peace impossible. They have been a bloody spear lodged in the side of international rule of law as well as consensus, twisting themselves every now and then to get what they want from the rest of us.

          One way or another, that won’t last.

        • Taxi says:

          Chaos,

          The region is a massive arms depot with every conceivable weapon ready to be fired at the enemy.

          The next war will be big and quick and brutal, the people of the region are already referring to it as the ‘great sweep’ where ALL weapons will be on the table.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Which is a shame, because the United States is largely responsible for that.

          I wonder if history will ever forgive us.

        • OOOPS! This post was meant to be for another thread, obviously..Where eee keeps harping on “fix your country first” canard trying to obstruct and obfuscate what is legitimately topical commentary.

        • Shmuel says:

          Well said, TGIA, but reasoned argument will not do the trick. We’ll just have to wait until 3e runs out of steam.

        • Sumud says:

          “The suitcase or the coffin?”

          I don’t think it was posed as a question Taxi!

        • Sumud says:

          ” Instead, let’s try getting the two state solution off the ground. With violence you will achieve nothing.”

          It’s been off the ground for 3 decades. All nations are waiting for the navel-gazing to stop in Israel and “tough jew” antics to stop.

        • eee says:

          “The region is a massive arms depot with every conceivable weapon ready to be fired at the enemy.

          The next war will be big and quick and brutal, the people of the region are already referring to it as the ‘great sweep’ where ALL weapons will be on the table.”

          What could be worse than Gaza according to you? Yet no one lifted a finger to help the people there. Hezbollah did not shoot anything at Israel, nor Iran, nor Syria. Egypt and Jordan were actually happy. In short, there is not going to be a war because no country wants to be destroyed for the Palestinian cause. Get used to it. The Palestinians stand alone and are weak and divided. Violence is not the solution and dreams of an apocalypse will not get you anywhere.

        • Sumud says:

          ” The Palestinians stand alone”

          That’s why Israel is having kittens about Apartheid Week/BDS and Goldstone right?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Yet no one lifted a finger to help the people there.

          You mean besides all the aid shipments Israel has stolen and all the boats Israel has hijacked over the past few years? And then the one you guys tried to sink outright, which had journalists and even American and Irish politicians on it.

      • I think it would be a good ritual to read the names of Palestinian children killed, and offer an appropriate prayer in their honor.

        I would hope that Muslims would do the same for Jews harmed historically, say joining in the holocaust memorial services.

        I don’t know of any occassion where that has occurred simply, compassionately.

        Hopefully soon.

        • Mooser says:

          “I think it would be a good ritual to read the names of Palestinian children killed,”

          Yeah cause after they’re Bar Mitzvah they become full-fledged terrorists, and their lives aren’t wort a damn!

        • Danaa says:

          Witty, the equivalent of palestinian children murdered by israel is Israeli children murdered by palestinians. The muslims have absolutely no reason to atone for the crimes of the germans, or the spanish or the romans. Unless, of course, Israel would like to atone also for the crimes committed by the US against the Iraqi people and the Lebanese people. Let’s see- in Iraq alone that would be how many dead kids? 100 K? long time to read all them names.

    • Les says:

      For American Jews opposed to US support for occupation and ethnic cleansing, this could be an especially meaningful Yom Kippur. It would be offensive to Zionists but surely not to Judaism.

  12. MHughes976 says:

    And we should not forget that the Ottomans gave a refuge to Jews expelled from Spain after the final Christian Reconquest, which King Ferdinand had persuaded the Jews to finance.

  13. RoHa says:

    Aplogising and taking responsibility for the Naqba would be a start, but the main wrong is the very idea of a Jewish State. That whole concept has to be rejected.

    • Mooser says:

      I still wanna see somebody who can give me any good reason why Judaism priovides the basis for a State. Man, you would have to be insane or desperate to turn over your life fortune and sacred honor to a place run by Madoffs and Rabbis. Yeah, that’ll work.

      And of course, the proof is that whenever Jews are given the rights of other citizens, they absolutely refuse to leave a Jew-only community, and won’t make a move without consulting the Jewish leadership.

      • I still wanna see somebody who can give me any good reason why Judaism priovides the basis for a State.
        Mooser
        ————-
        I, in my corner, was wondering if we, all atheists like my respectable and “persecuted” self, could be allotted some piece of land somewhere we could “practice” our (ill) faith in quiet and peace of mind. If the “Jews” were given the OK for it why not us? Anywhere nice and suitable you can think of people? I heard Switzerland is empty, a land without people, for a people without faith! Whadyah you think, Mooser?

        • Danaa says:

          TGIA – how about Alaska? I heard it’s populated quite sparsely. Well, there is that village of Wasilla, but surely, they’ll be glad to relocate the church – a little east to, say, Montreal?

        • Danaa says:

          And did you all know that Wilhelm Tel and his brave son were actually secret practicing atheists? they were forced to pretend to be believers, and when found out were severely persecuted, and Tel Jr. almost came to dire end, but for the exquisite archery skills of Tel Pere.

          I mean, what’s better than a ready made legend?

          I do like “Next year in Luzanne” – isn’t that what we all say every winter looking out on our snowless, lakeless landscape? I say this every year – especially to my travel agent.

        • eee says:

          “I still wanna see somebody who can give me any good reason why Judaism priovides the basis for a State.
          Mooser”

          Because Judaism is first and foremost a nationality and then a religion. I am an atheist Jew and there is no contradiction in that. Herzl was most probably an atheist. All the socialist and communist Jews that were the backbone of the immigration to mandatory Palestine were atheists.

          Some tribes have sweat lodges and totem poles and dances around the fire. The Jews have the Halacha. Our religion is our customs. You don’t have to follow the customs of the tribe to be of the tribe. But you do have to care about the welfare of the other tribe members and have solidarity with them.

        • eee says:

          “I do like “Next year in Luzanne” – isn’t that what we all say every winter looking out on our snowless, lakeless landscape? I say this every year – especially to my travel agent.”

          First its spelled Lausanne and it is a pretty dull city with wicked winds from the lake. You should go to Villars-sur-Ollon. (Switzerland is less than 4 hours flight from Israel and that is where many Israelis go skiing).

          The Swiss are not a good example of atheists. Did you ever think why the Pope uses Swiss Guards? There are quite a few fanatic Catholics among them. Furthermore, you might know though I doubt it that Calvinism is from Geneva.

        • Danaa says:

          eee “You don’t have to follow the customs of the tribe to be of the tribe. But you do have to care about the welfare of the other tribe members and have solidarity with them.” ouch….

          But what if part of the tribe has gone over the deep? like they became a cult? of zionism-gone-sour? what’s to be done with the errant sect?

          Ah, the good old testament to the rescue….when the 10 tribes of Israel split off from the remaining two, it was for a reason – and god was quite annoyed at all this idolatry too. So. off they went from the pages of history.

          I have a feeling god is kind of pissed off again….not good, eee….

          And I do too like Luzanne which I’ll continue to spell the american way. Thanks for sharing to which slope I must not flock.

      • RoHa says:

        It’s the ethnic particularity rather than the Judaism per se that is wrong. Of course, I can’t see a basis in Judaism either.

        But Switzerland for the atheists is tempting, espcially if the money, chocolate, and Swiss Army Knives are still there when we take it over.

        • Shmuel says:

          I’m all for Switzerland (seeing as it’s currently uninhabited and all), but I can’t help thinking that Godzone would be a far more poetic choice for the atheist homeland. Atheist National Fund anyone?

        • RoHa says:

          Once we have eased the natives (not that there are any) over the borders we can call it what we like. (“Nogodistan” is my choice. ) No harm would be done. After all, Switzerland has never been a real country. Just a bunch of cantons loosely tied together. Never had a single language. And treated women badly, too. No votes for women till 1971.

          And the “natives” are really just a few Frenchmen, Germans, and Itralians who wandered in to take advantage of the economic boom we atheists are bringing to the place. (We are making the Alps bloom. Look at our glorious fields of eidelweiss.) They will be much happier when they are back with their own kith and kin.

        • Shmuel says:

          Absolutely, Roha. After all, there are 49 other European countries, in which these few recent interlopers could easily join their brethren. By the way, I’ve discovered an ancient and very secular atheist book, which mentions “The Land of the Swizz” (or something very similar) as the site of the first, second and seventh Atheist Commonwealths (respectively). And everyone knows that Switzerland is the very land that atheists have not mentioned in prayer, since time immemorial.

        • Donald says:

          These are very compelling moral arguments. Perhaps some outside power could be persuaded to put out a declaration endorsing Switzerland as the atheist homeland.

          And once you get the thing up and running, I’m willing to chip in my share of the several billion per year that you’ll need for bombing recalcitrant yodellers and other terrorists.

        • Sumud says:

          Everyone knows the swiss are a bunch of chocolate-making terrorists. The first terrorist bombs all had clockwork movements, a Switzerland speciality. And they actively supported Nazis during the war. There are already atheists in Switzerland paving the way. They’ve been welcomed with open arms [naturally] because we come in peace.

  14. Peter in SF says:

    Disregarding the fierce back-and-forth in the comments section, I’d like to comment on something in the original post:

    Jewish statehood was achieved through the ethnic cleansing of another people. To celebrate Israel without regard for its impact on the indigenous people of Palestine is un-Jewish.

    I don’t get it. The book of Joshua is all about achieving Jewish statehood through the ethnic cleansing of another people. This important part of the Jewish Bible is all about celebrating Israel without regard for its impact on the indigenous people of Palestine. Many Jews today may not like it, but to call it “un-Jewish” doesn’t seem historically correct.

    • peter- There are about 24 books in the Bible, (if you count the lesser prophets as one.) Joshua is certainly one of the books that many people would like to forget. I take pride in the sayings of Amos and Isaiah and am rather embarrassed by the book of Joshua. There is truth in your comment, but also religions should be allowed to evolve.

      • Also, it is the story of a single moment, not of a continuing theme.

        One of the great tragedies in the fascist flavors of neo-religious Zionism is that of regarding those urges of that single moment to be general, applying to all moments, and particularly to this one.

      • Sumud says:

        So you condemn Geert Wilders “Fitna?”

    • The book of Joshua is all about achieving Jewish statehood through the ethnic cleansing of another people. This important part of the Jewish Bible is all about celebrating Israel without regard for its impact on the indigenous people of Palestine. Many Jews today may not like it, but to call it “un-Jewish” doesn’t seem historically correct.
      Peter
      ——————–
      Shhhhh Peter..Not so loud! Someone might hear you…

      • But, in the context of protecting a people from ethnic cleansing. Which is worse, the condition or the response?

        Surely, the humanistic prescription cannot be “stay there and die”. Never again is a positive reaction to that passivity.

        The art is to find non-harmful forms to assert oneself, hence the two-state solution constructed so that both communities are viable and healthy.

        Not either/or.