Scary video from UCSD

Israel/Palestine
on 112 Comments

A couple of friends have sent me this video from UC San Diego linked there at Commentary’s blog of a confrontation between David Horowitz, the Israel lobbyist, and a purported member of the Muslim Students Association who seems to come out for hunting down Jews. I find it scary and feel that it exposes real intolerance inside the pro-Palestinian movement. It’s a little unclear, because the woman doesn’t get to expand a short statement, and Horowitz, for whom I hold no brief (and who gets Islamophobic in the exchange), controls the exchange; but it’s still ugly. The explanation that she’s a plant is unconvincing to me. I saw hatred toward Israel/Jews in Gaza. I understand where it came from; in many situations I observed, I could not blame them. But in the U.S., at a state school? This is not the way.

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Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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112 Responses

  1. aparisian
    May 17, 2010, 12:24 pm

    I m not sure the girl understood the statement made by Horowitz. I m sure she wanted to say that she would support Hezbollah.

    • LeaNder
      May 17, 2010, 2:38 pm

      It’s easy to be shocked and easy to misuse. The lady obviously is both provocative and defiant. I really can’t blame her confronting that guy.

      Obviously the video uses her “irony” as truth. Palestinians, Arabs = Nazis. How many in the audience can understand her irony? I almost fell for it. But it took me only two links. With Horowitz one better checks:

      MSA member: Good evening, I just wanted to say thank you for coming to campus tonight and presenting your point of view, its always important to have to sets of, ah, views going on at the same time. Um, very useful. My name is [Jimena Imad Musa Ahmal Bahiri](sp) and I’m a student here at UCSD. Ah I was reading your literature, I found that much more interesting than your talk, and I found some interesting things about the MSA, which is an organization that is very active on campus and is hosting our annual “Hitler Youth” week, you should come out to those events. [DS: Horowitz had referred to the MSA's week as a Hitler Youth week.] Um, if you could clarify the connection between the MSA and Jihad terrorist networks, because last time I checked, we had to do our own fundraising, and we never get help from anyone. So if you could clarify the connection between UCSD’s MSA or if you don’t have such information, if you could connect other MSA’s on UC’s, because the connection wasn’t to clear in the pamphlet, just if you could clarify.

    • Sumud
      May 17, 2010, 2:49 pm

      I’m not sure aparisian – I’d like to hear her clarification on what she meant. I don’t think she’s a plant.

      As I said a few days ago when yonira posted this, there’s an inconsistency in her being unwilling to say she supports Hamas (for fear of being arrested under homeland security) yet be willing to advocate genocide against jews. Horrorwitz cuts her off so we don’t get to hear any explanation.

      I think it’s probably it’s a case of Amygdalas Gone Wild.

      This vid is every Israel-firsters wet dream – in the absence of campaign(s) of Palestinian violence incitement is all they’ve got left. Yonira’s got wood.

      • lareineblanche
        May 17, 2010, 3:04 pm

        I don’t think she’s a plant.
        I don’t either. Apparently, she made an unfortunate attempt at humor, as leaNder stated above, mimicking Horowitz’s accusation of the MSA’s event as “Hitler Youth Week” – bad, irresponsible humor to say the least, especially on Horowitz’s part (which is not surprising).
        As everybody knows, all you have to do is associate her image with the word “Hitler”, and the damage is done, posting on websites, etc. Most people won’t bother to check the facts. She got hoodwinked.

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 3:32 pm

        Incitement versus violence – or – What to be scared of, and what not to.

        I’m reminded of the teenage girls driving machine guns by remote control all along Gaza’s border, “Dozens of terrorists have been hit”:

        ‘IDF’s newest heroes: Women spotters on Gaza border’
        link to haaretz.com

        On their say-so Gazans live and die. We saw the wikileaks video from Iraq where a camera was mistaken for weaponry and a dozen people shredded.

        When the Thai worker died from that rocket attack a few months ago the BBC reported 88 Gazans had been killed by the IDF since the end of the Gaza Massacre. I can think of 4 or 5 more since March, the most recent being a 75 year old man just a few days ago. How many of these were killed by the teenage girl spotters? The BBC article:

        ‘Rocket fire from Gaza kills man in southern Israel’
        link to news.bbc.co.uk

        Philip, I don’t think you have much to be scared about, even if you travelled to UC San Diego. Be glad you aren’t one of her people, a Palestinian, especially in Gaza.

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 3:36 pm

        Jumanah Imad Albahri has made a statement, it was linked on the KabobFest link jawad supplied below:

        ‘UCSD Muslim Student Responds to David Horowitz Event’
        link to fortruthforjustice.wordpress.com

      • aparisian
        May 17, 2010, 4:21 pm

        Excellent link Sumud Thanks!

      • Don
        May 17, 2010, 5:17 pm

        I agree, excellent link. I am a bit surprised anyone (especially Phil) would see the that this highly intelligent young woman was being anything other than sarcastic. Particularly given that she was verbally sparring with a right wing extremist racist nut job. I did not perceive any hatred on her part at all.

      • annie
        May 17, 2010, 5:44 pm

        this is as i expected. i know when what it is like to be questioned in front of an audience and get flustered. i assumed when i first heard it she was finally responding to what she assumed was the initial question after evading his earlier requests. it was a loaded question, a do you beat your wife question because not condemning something does not mean we support everything about something.

        also in the article phil linked to was the response of one of her teachers which was entirely consistent with the student’s written response.

        this is a pure goldmine for the rightwing as there is nothing better than proving your ideological opponents are in fact evil genocidal bastards. this student appears very forthcoming. if her inner desires reflected the conclusions made by horowitz i can’t imagine why she would write such a clear denial. i hope her response is distributed thru out the web so we can move past this episode.

  2. yonira
    May 17, 2010, 12:37 pm

    Phil,

    MSU at UCI has had equally ugly exchanges on their campus. Their anual Israel apartheid week brings in speakers filled with immense hatred and intolerance not towards only Israel but towards Jews a whole.

    Here is an article on one of their perennial speakers.
    link to standwithus.com

    • Sumud
      May 17, 2010, 2:29 pm

      So Yonira since you avoided answering my questions about this video when you posted it a day or two ago I’ll ask for the third time.

      1. When she makes reference to Hitler Youth Week do you believe her?

      2. The IDF rules of engagement during the Gaza Massacre enabled combat fitting the legal definition of genocide. For or against the IDF? No need to elaborate, just FOR or AGAINST ?

      The second time I asked, with links to the first:
      link to mondoweiss.net

      • yonira
        May 17, 2010, 5:24 pm

        1.) the 10 day Israel apartheid event @ UCI and apparently also @ UCSD, is not pretty as I linked above. Horowitz called it Hitler Youth Week, I don’t agree with his assessment and I believe she was mocking him.

        2.) I’ve said on countless occasions that I didn’t back Israel’s actions during Caste Lead. Calling it genocidal is careless though. So I guess #2 Against.

      • aparisian
        May 17, 2010, 5:35 pm

        Sumud, i was part of the Zio Hasbara world when i was younger before i convert and i know how Hasbararists like yonira works.
        People like yonira are like snakes, they will tell you whatever you want to hear but they don’t believe on this, they are so extremists, radical in the hearts… so back to whats said above of course yonira and his likes supported Cast lead and still support the Israeli fascist actions against defenceless Palestinian civilians.

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 5:46 pm

        What part of the Horowitz Game don’t you understand Yonira? You don’t get to qualify your statements.

        “Against.”

        What a liar. You support Israel, therefore you support the IDF, therefore you support genocide.

        And don’t bother to reply Yonira. “You don’t get to make speeches”.

        What a dreadful person you are supporting genocide. I’ll never forget it.

      • yonira
        May 17, 2010, 5:57 pm

        great retort Sumud.

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 11:30 pm

        “great retort Sumud.”

        Actually I felt thoroughly juvenile and disingenuous writing it – but that’s Horowitz for you.

      • Chaos4700
        May 17, 2010, 11:36 pm

        Hey, it’s the only language yonira understands.

  3. Shmuel
    May 17, 2010, 12:42 pm

    Thanks for addressing this, Phil. This video is bound to come up here, there and everywhere in the next little while. I agree, it is ugly. It can be excused, justified and rationalised, but it will still be ugly – and harmful to the cause of just peace in Palestine. One of the most obvious rationalisations is that it’s just one young woman, baited by a racist, and shouldn’t be given much attention. Unfortunately, there is no shortage of racism and fanaticism in the pro-Palestinian camp. It doesn’t help to ignore it or pretend it doesn’t exist. For me, this is another reason to support BDS – although supported by all of Palestinian society (including racists and fundamentalists), it is rights-based and so, inherently anti-racist. The antidote to this kind of extremism is not Islamophobia, but Ali Abunimah and Omar Barghouti. The answer is one state – the position supported by the most moderate and democratic elements in Palestinian society.

    • LeaNder
      May 17, 2010, 2:43 pm

      I am not so sure, Shmuel. How would you react if your student group was called “Hitler’s Youth”? I was shocked first too. But I don’t think we know anything about the girl from what we see here.

      Why doesn’t somebody find out?

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 2:56 pm

        I imagine there’ll be a statement or interview from her soon enough. I hope so.

      • Shmuel
        May 17, 2010, 3:03 pm

        LeaNder

        The “Hitler youth” comment was obviously ironic. The only part of the video that bothered me (apart from just about everything Horowitz said) was the student’s self-assured (ok, defiant) agreement with a revolting statement attributed to Nasrallah. It doesn’t even matter whether the quote is accurate.

        Anyone who follows I/P with a moderately open mind can’t help but notice that there is a racist component on the Palestinian side as well (not to mention some very unsavoury right-wing fellow travellers in Europe and the US), not least from radical Islam. I don’t think it does anyone any good to ignore it.

      • Shmuel
        May 17, 2010, 3:22 pm

        To elaborate a little on one of the reasons I think it’s important to acknowledge the existence of unsavoury views on the “Palestinian side”: The hasbarists seem to think it’s a trump card, invalidating all Palestinian claims and all advocates of Palestinian rights (association fallacy). When we go on the defensive, trying to dismiss, explain, contextualise or justify the “evidence” provided by the hasbarists – apart from diverting attention away from Palestinian rights – we lend legitimacy to their attempts at tarring-by-association.

        Assuming the impression given in the video is accurate, this woman holds some pretty despicable views – as indeed some Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, etc. do. We gain nothing by idealising Palestinians or Muslims.

      • tree
        May 17, 2010, 4:08 pm

        This woman’s views, according to her statement:

        …Insofar as my references to Hitler and the Nazi Youth programs: it was Mr. Horowitz who spent a substantial amount of time referring to the MSA as the “Hitler Youth” and its Justice in Palestine Week as “Hitler Youth Week”— pejorative titles that as a human being, a student of history, and a person of faith, I find disgusting. I uttered them in a sarcastic manner only to point out the ridiculous and slanderous nature of Mr. Horowitz’s labels—Nazis sought the extermination of anyone who was not “white,” and this racial category excludes the vast majority of the Muslim population.

        I asked Mr. Horowitz to explain the purported connection between UCSD’s MSA and “Jihadist Terrorist Networks.” His pamphlet did not mention the organization; rather it focused on other groups like UCI’s MSU and Berkley and LA’s MSA chapters, and offered supporting grounds that can be characterized as shaky at best, with sources that had little credibility. He chose not to engage my question (his opening arguments were the verbatim generalizations made in the pamphlet, though my question asked for specifics) but instead decided to subject me to an interrogation because of my headscarf and Palestinian kuffiyeh. The fact that Mr. Horowitz claimed on a respected national cable news network that the MSA receives forty thousand dollars to put on Justice in Palestine Week, speaks volumes to his status as a gross exaggerator who should not be trusted to deliver opinions on anything. The information can be found here on UCSD’s official website link to as.ucsd.edu.

        Towards the end of the exchange, I became emotional. I could no longer hear Mr. Horowitz speaking and so did not even hear his injection of Hezbollah’s credo of “rounding up” Jews in his last tangent. I could no longer contain my anger at being implicitly and improperly labeled a terrorist, an anti-Semite, and a proponent of genocide. The answer I was coerced into giving grossly misrepresented my beliefs and ideologies.

        My answer, “for it,” in the context in which it was said does NOT mean “for” genocide. I was referring to his initial question that asked me for my position on Hamas, a topic that for his own political reasons he was relentless in pursuing. “For it” was not a legitimization of Hezbollah’s or anyone else’s credo for that matter that Jews should be exterminated. In fact, Mr. Horowitz’s intent was to entrap me with his barrage of questions so that he could avoid answering my question, and construe any answer that I would provide as anti-Semitic, genocidal hate speech in order to further his political agenda.

        I am not a member of Hamas, nor have I ever given support to Hamas, nor do I agree their actions or stances wholesale, but I refused to offer Mr. Horowitz a blanket condemnation of Hamas that night. I felt that doing so would be a blanket condemnation of the Palestinian cause. I refused to throw the baby (the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people) out with the bathwater (Hamas.) In addition, Mr. Horowitz asked me to condemn Hamas as a genocidal organization; which to my limited knowledge on the subject, is another unsupported claim made by Mr. Horowitz.

        My opinion of Hamas is not as simple as condemn or condone, “for it” or “against it.” I firmly believe that the killing of civilians, even as “collateral damage” regardless of creed, politics, sexuality, nationality, or ethnicity is one of the highest crimes in the eyes of God and is morally reprehensible and abhorrent. But I condone Hamas in its ambition to liberate the Palestinian people. I condone Hamas as the duly elected representative government of the Palestinian people granted governance in an election overseen by our ex-President Jimmy Carter; and characterized as fair, open, and fully democratic. I condone Hamas in its desire to end the inhumane siege of the Gazan people. I condone Hamas in its struggle to free the 10,000 Palestinian men, women, and children unjustly locked away in Israeli prisons. It seems that in Mr. Horowitz’s logic, my support of freedom, peace, and justice makes me a “terrorist.”

        David Horowitz can try to erase my history, the history of my grandparents, the history of the Palestinian people, he can call me a terrorist, he can mischaracterize my faith as bloody, and my God as false, but I will NOT allow him to vilify me as a racist or a proponent of genocide and remain silent.

        link to fortruthforjustice.wordpress.com

        One of the lessons of all this is the importance of not being manipulated by such a bigoted and accomplished race baiter like Horowitz. She spoke up, obviously, because of anger at Horowitz’ toxic speech, but anger can make it hard to rationally make one’s point, especially when one is being shouted down and belittled by the object of your anger.

        Yes, we don’t need to idealise anyone, but we do need to listen and understand before we criticize or condemn.

      • Chu
        May 17, 2010, 4:21 pm

        Shmuel,

        It’s kind of a loaded question, don’t you think?

        The head of Hezbollah has said that he hopes that we will gather in Israel > so he doesn’t have to hunt us down globally.
        For or against it?

        Either way she answers she is guilty.
        1. stay in Israel collectively (to be hunted)
        2. stay dispersed throughout the planet (to be hunted)

        Either way she answers, she agrees with that they should be hunted. To me it is a cheap ruse, and you don’t see it.

      • Shmuel
        May 17, 2010, 4:51 pm

        Chu,

        It was definitely a cheap ruse, but not in the way you suggest. I think an “against it” answer would have been understood as opposing an ostensibly genocidal statement, but it would also have been humiliating for her – forced to “concede” something to this bullying jerk. Someone with more experience could have handled it (I don’t believe Narallah said that, hurry-up yes-no questions are a cheap trick, let me ask you a question …, and so forth). I don’t blame her for that; I don’t think I would have come off very well against Horowitz either, and I’m twice her age, male (the fact that she is a woman certainly played a part), and not visibly Muslim or radical.

        But again, I don’t think this is about Ms. Albahri, who may be fine person. It’s about the ability to deal with real anti-Semitism (and some other nasty stuff in radical Islam) when it is pointed out by Zionists and neocons. It’s a bit tricky, because that’s what they want the whole discussion to be about, but they’ve won if we can’t find it in ourselves to condemn racism and violence on “our side”. Excuse me for bringing Abunimah up again, but time and again he has condemned racism in the “service” of the Palestinian cause – if only because the Palestinians have the moral high ground, and such things undermine the only real advantage they have.

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 5:00 pm

        She could have sidestepped it altogether by saying “I see no reason to kill jews”. Still, there are people who excel at fast verbal comebacks and those that don’t and I’m firmly in the latter camp. I’d make a terrible politician. I don’t know what I would have said if I were in her position, something incoherent probably.

      • aparisian
        May 17, 2010, 5:08 pm

        The MSA must know that the Zionist camp is very good in communication and Hasbara, so MSA people has to learn how to deal with them, because as you see they will try to get them in trouble and it works…

      • Chu
        May 17, 2010, 5:16 pm

        I agree with you that these smelly cases are what Zionists delight in. I’m concerned why Phil needed to post this and label it under ‘S’ for scary.

      • aparisian
        May 17, 2010, 5:22 pm

        Phil got trapped. This is exactly what the Hasbarists are doing with these videos. I wish Phil will be able to read the girls statement. Why MSA dont attack Horrowitz for defamation as he is calling them the Nazi youth?

      • Avi
        May 17, 2010, 6:15 pm

        [...] and not visibly Muslim or radical.

        Waaaaaait a minute. Hold it right there.

        You did mention once, on this very website no less, that you have a long beard.

        YES or NO?

        It’s a simple question.

      • Cliff
        May 17, 2010, 7:00 pm

        Her response is exactly what I wrote to yonira. You could tell she was shaken up and nervous.

      • Shmuel
        May 18, 2010, 12:29 am

        Waaaaaait a minute. Hold it right there.
        You did mention once, on this very website no less, that you have a long beard. YES or NO?

        I would love to answer you, but I refuse to be badgered in this manner. And do you wear glasses? YES or NO? It’s a simple question. You see how it feels? This conversation is over.

      • Shmuel
        May 18, 2010, 12:31 am

        TGIA: Never answer a “yes or no” question. It a law!

      • LeaNder
        May 18, 2010, 1:15 pm

        Anyone who follows I/P with a moderately open mind can’t help but notice that there is a racist component on the Palestinian side as well (not to mention some very unsavoury right-wing fellow travellers in Europe and the US), not least from radical Islam. I don’t think it does anyone any good to ignore it.

        Obviously. But I am not so sure about the other side of the Janus face the Horowitzes, Pipes et al In nuce they offer an alternative Arab, Muslims: “Semite” scapegoat. And it works as far as some branches of the European right is concerned.

        The “Hitler youth” comment was obviously ironic.

        I admittedly didn’t notice. Did you immediately realize “Hitler Youth” was ironic? Or was he in fact realizing that most couldn’t and didn’t understand the irony. Or hadn’t read his books?

        help but notice that there is a racist component on the Palestinian side as well

        I do not know many Palestinians. But I have a slight idea about the repression the context helps to create from anecdotes of Sumaya Farhat-Naser:

        Even as everyday life becomes ever more difficult and Sumaya Farhat-Naser only has little freedom of movement left, she keeps the dialogue with her Israeli co-activists going by email. Sometimes, she smuggles herself through the checkpoints to Israel to hold a talk, at all times observed by her compatriots. A wrong word or an overnight stay with Israeli friends and she would be considered a traitor of the Palestinian cause.

        She seems to be leaving for the US, finally, if I read the web correctly. My encounters with her thaught me a lot about misguided suspicion. … It’s complicated really. But Horowitz et al do their very best produce legions of antagonists. That’s my problem.

        The Palestinians I met over here in Germany are moderate, their family memories aren’t though. My suspicion is the moderates on both sides tend to leave and that is the ultimate tragedy.

        I don’t have much time in the evenings and I want to finish my book.

  4. Chu
    May 17, 2010, 1:05 pm

    Scary? Well, I’m not so sure.

    She ate the seed right from his hand. [will you condemn Hamas right now?] And so she is the stupid one, but he is the racist with the microphone. He couldn’t answer her question, so he baited her and she
    ate it up. She’s a angry novice and he’s the skilled speaker.

    He then proceeds to tell her she wears a terrorist neckerchief. Big man could’ve stopped after her faux pas, but he had to keep going and lob her into the terrorist category. The big mouth gets the last word.

    • LeaNder
      May 17, 2010, 2:53 pm

      Yes, I think she wanted to confront Horowitz racist bias, but failed completely. I think she is defiant. I wish I knew a better word for our German Trotz. It feels she didn’t even get close to what she really wanted to say or address. The difference she alludes to, between his presentation and his writings is the main hint I think. Reminds me of the Horowitz research of David Mills/Undercover Black Man. A must read on Horowitz.

      Bye for today.

  5. Todd
    May 17, 2010, 1:08 pm

    Great! It looks like Balkanization is already under way. Here we have a repesentative of an older group of unassimilated immigrants fighting with a member of a new group of unassimilated immigrants–both of whom would probably rail against traditional America under a rainbow flag.

    And thanks to the Jewish community for bringing this conflict to the United States. You guys are doing a great job as an elite group, and the supreme intelligence is certainly on display. You’ll get hatred in return, and deservedly so.

    • DICKERSON3870
      May 17, 2010, 1:54 pm

      RE: “And thanks to the Jewish community for bringing this conflict to the United States.” – Todd

      “All generalizations are dangerous, even this one.” – Alexandre Dumas, French dramatist & novelist (1802 – 1870)

      • Todd
        May 17, 2010, 2:03 pm

        Is this one generalization that is forbidden? Hasn’t Phil repeatedly made the point that the Jewish elite is driving this issue in the U.S.? And within the Jewish community, the pro-Israel gatherings appear to be much larger than the anti-Israel gatherings–remember the videos of the pro-Israel parades and festivities posted on this site about a year ago? I’d say the shoe fits, or at least appears to fit. Besides, the issue goes beyond Israel and Zionism. Phil himself admits that he has never really assimilated. What should non-Jews think of such talk when issues like the American Jewish role in Palestine, and the trouble it brings to America, are so obvious?

      • Chu
        May 17, 2010, 3:16 pm

        Todd,
        I get the sarcasm and it’s good a bit.
        In truth, I’m actually surprised Phil posted this rubbish, esp. after LeaNder’s first researched post on the Hitler Youth joke
        (post #2+/-). It’s like you get them all riled-up with Hitler Youth digs and then you post the useful clips for the cause (see, I told you they hate us Joos).
        That’s called a victory for the team; Commentary Style.

    • Avi
      May 17, 2010, 6:21 pm

      You know, Todd, it’s not as though you are a Native American.

      So, quit this unassimilated immigrant vs. older group of unassimilated immigrant bull. OK?

      I don’t care what your racist version of “assimilated” happens to be, but you certainly don’t get to set the bar, nor should there be any assimilation on anyone’s part. The US is a land of immigrants, each with his and her own traits, traditions and norms.

      Furthermore, assimilation implies some kind of abnormality that needs to be shed or adjusted to fit in with what the dominant group seeks to impose. You don’t like it, I know.

      Deal with it.

      • Todd
        May 17, 2010, 9:22 pm

        Blow it out your ear, Avi! And while you’re at it, why don’t you look up the word racism before you start throwing it around. Save the land of immigrants B.S., too. I suppose a man named Avi is supposed to set the bar for me??? You didn’t actually address anything that I stated.

      • andrew r
        May 18, 2010, 3:05 am

        Let’s say his name was Todd…

      • Todd
        May 18, 2010, 10:21 am

        “Let’s say his name was Todd…”

        Well, Andrew, Todd knows the meaning of the word racism, and doesn’t hide behind phoney charges when discussing ethnic or racial politics himself. Todd also doesn’t speak for American Indians in order to promote a bogus political agenda that harms real people along racial and ethnic lines, while claiming not to see race or ethnicity himself.

  6. Colin Murray
    May 17, 2010, 1:26 pm

    I think this stems a conflation of Judaism with Zionism, in no small part by Zionists cultivating pre-existing Gentile ignorance. It is not enough to aggressively confront hate speech of this kind, although that should certainly be done. That is merely treating the symptom.

    I think a rise in antisemitism is inevitable as long as American Jewish institutional political activity, i.e. the Israel Lobby, supporting Israeli occupation, ethnic cleansing, colonization, is perceived as being Jewish, rather than Zionist.

    American Jews need to get past the ‘circle the wagons’ mentality and be willing to criticize, ostracize, and politically attack Jewish extremists. I get a sense of unwillingness to even acknowledge the existence of Jewish extremists much less be publicly confrontational ‘because if we admit that some of us are bad apples, Gentiles will all think that all of us are’ when the social dynamic is IMO acting in the other direction.

    Is it any wonder that some people hate Jews when they think that nearly the entire Jewish people support what is happening in Israel/Palestine? Imagine what Protestants and Catholics thought of each other after the horror of the Thirty Years War, if they believed that all members of the other religion supported the murder, torture and dispossession of their families and communities?

    The Zionist narrative needs to be supplanted.

    • Colin Murray
      May 17, 2010, 1:28 pm

      oops, forgot my example in first sentence: … conflation of Judaism with Zionism, e.g. calling Israel ‘the Jewish state’, …

  7. DICKERSON3870
    May 17, 2010, 1:39 pm

    RE: “I saw hatred toward Israel/Jews in Gaza. I understand where it came from; in many situations I observed, I could not blame them. But in the U.S., at a state school? This is not the way.” – Weiss
    MY COMMENT: I agree.

    Friday, March 21, 2003
    Students protest cartoon of Rachel Corrie
    Newspaper’s editors refuse to apologize for running it
    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
    COLLEGE PARK, Md. — A sit-in continued for a second day yesterday over a college newspaper cartoon describing the actions of the Olympia peace activist killed by an Israeli bulldozer as the definition of stupidity.
    The cartoon depicts a woman sitting in front of a bulldozer with the dictionary definition of the word “stupidity” listed below, along with an additional definition: “3. Sitting in front of a bulldozer to protect a gang of terrorists.”
    Rachel Corrie, 23, a student at The Evergreen State College, was killed Sunday as she tried to stop an Israeli bulldozer from destroying the home of a Palestinian physician. Witnesses said Corrie knelt in front of the machine, which kept coming and crushed her. The Israeli military said the driver didn’t see her in time.
    More than 60 students gathered for a sit-in Wednesday after the cartoon appeared in The Diamondback, the student newspaper at the University of Maryland-College Park….
    ….A telephone call and e-mail by The Associated Press seeking comment on the cartoon from the newspaper’s editorial staff and cartoonist Daniel Friedman were not returned yesterday….
    ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to seattlepi.com

  8. Oscar
    May 17, 2010, 1:47 pm

    Not so scary . . . The worst of it was when she made the disturbing “joke” about her group sponsoring an annual “Hitler youth” week. But remember she just endured a David Duke like anti-Muslim screed that basically calls her entire race as subhuman and violent.

    On another cheery note, has anyone else seen Glenn Greenwald’s observation of how the neo-cons are absolutely freaking out that an Arab-American won the Miss USA pageant? The hyperventilating is nearly comical, I mean, imagine if this vitriol was aimed at a black or Jewish winner of the pageant??
    link to memeorandum.com

    Gosh, maybe there’s a few speed bumps on the superhighway to the Clash of Civilization. . .

    • Sumud
      May 17, 2010, 3:53 pm

      Whoa Oscar that link is toxic.

      Compare and contrast this hyper-sensitive post at HuffPo:

      “Anti-Semitism Rears Its Head in Attacks on Elena Kagan’
      link to huffingtonpost.com

      For those who’ve sworn off HP this is the statement that is decried by Ari Rabin-Havt as anti-semitic (he bolds this section):

      “She comes from that background. I grew up in New York, she grew up in New York. I’m very familiar with the sort of Jewish socialist culture in New York, which has an enormous pedigree, has done wonderful things in promoting a way of life and developing American society, but at the end of the day is still socialist.”

    • marc b.
      May 17, 2010, 4:30 pm

      50 lashes with a wet noodle, oscar, for linking to malkin. boy but is she repulsive.

      • Oscar
        May 18, 2010, 7:19 am

        Marc b, I hope you got a chance to read Debbie Schlusser’s column on the topic (also on the same link). You want to talk about hate speech, this is one of the most appalling pieces published on the Internet. It’s oozing with skin-crawling raw hatred for an entire race. I can’t believe such voices are tolerated in 2010.

  9. javs
    May 17, 2010, 2:09 pm

    NOT any different than the little girls writting on live bombs that are to dropped on gaza, “for the children of gaza”. Maybe the interment or concentration camp which is now Palestine does not look similar along with so many other aspects of in humane treatment of people whom have had their asses handed to them in a major way for 60 + years…..how long was the holocaust…? which countries took part in the holocaust beside germany??
    and if there were any did they too use the terrorism stance??? Is there no comparison?…oh I forgot only one type of people matter in this world because of the fable of blind faith that something called god gave it exclusively to only one group. Yes and I will sell you a plot of swamp land too.
    shed some light on this for me can you?

  10. javs
    May 17, 2010, 2:24 pm

    whorowitz is just another schmuck, whom had the stage and unfortunately the young lady was in fear of spurting out the facts which could have backlashed against her and her family. The majority know the facts of all intentions of the rogue aparthied people. She should have asked him to have god come down and show the world the deed or at least tell the world in exact
    terms, I give this to only them ! why does he not, well there is not a god that ever did such a thing in the first place and it is all controls that are in the favor of the aparthied people, the media , the usa government, the list goes on too long to write it here.

  11. jawad
    May 17, 2010, 2:52 pm

    KabobFest’s take (particularly on Nusrallah’s statement)
    link to kabobfest.com

  12. Oscar
    May 17, 2010, 3:16 pm

    Here’s the statement from the woman at UCSD. She feels she was gamed.
    link to fortruthforjustice.wordpress.com

    First of all, she was not a plant. She was duped. Horowitz was waiting for someone like her to come along so she could be unwittingly turn into a neo-con Internet meme. The production value of the video was excellent — two cameras and a technical director that switched back and forth with crystal clear sound. How many of the on-campus exchanges we’ve seen had horrible quality, and a handheld jitteriness to them? Not this one.

    Read the Kabobfest takedown of this scam. and why is no one outraged by Horowitz’s offhand and deeply offensive insult about her scarf?

    • Shmuel
      May 17, 2010, 3:35 pm

      why is no one outraged by Horowitz’s offhand and deeply offensive insult about her scarf?

      Horowitz is a racist scumbag. Personally I am outraged by everything the man stands for, and this particular performance was no different. The fact remains however, that Ms. Albahri appears to have stooped to his level. I accept her explanation and am happy she felt the need to offer one. I don’t know whether her remark in the video truly represents her beliefs. Are there no Muslim racists? No Muslims who would support genocide?

      • Oscar
        May 17, 2010, 3:44 pm

        Shmuel, I have great respect for your sensibilities and your contributions to this blog. That said, don’t you believe that this student could have been set up by Horowitz? And even so, look, I agree with you that it wouldn’t excuse a racist, genocidal worldview, if that’s what she holds.

        I’m not convinced that she’s the radical that the neo-cons are braying about. Still, I don’t want to be eyes-closed about phil’s important point that there is some degree of anti-Semitism that lurks beneath some of the activism. It’s just that I don’t believe that’s the case here.

      • Shmuel
        May 17, 2010, 3:58 pm

        Oscar,

        Ms. Albahri was obviously out of her league (a compliment, in this case). She was manipulated into saying something she might not have meant or might not have meant to say out loud, by a master manipulator. The point that Horowitz was trying to make and the reason the hasbarists are flogging this video is fundamentally anti-Muslim, anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian.

        Having said that, I was bothered by the automatic defence mechanism that seems to have kicked in – which seems to me to imply that Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians can do no wrong, and if the Zionists attack, we must defend “our own” (which also kind of reminds me of some of their other tactics). This piece of propaganda is out there and should be dealt with (I think Phil did right). Apologetics are not necessarily the best way of going about it.

      • Oscar
        May 17, 2010, 4:05 pm

        Well put, Shmuel. I’d like to see Horowitz ask the same question of Ali Abunimah and watch his ass get intellectually kicked.

        Those of us passionate about the I/P situation are very sensitized to the concept that criticism of Israel = anti-semitism. The defenders of Operation Cast Lead are growing more desperate as the facts inconveniently neutralize the hasbara. I think this video — while giving everyone an opportunity to dispassionately discuss the sensitivity of campus radicalism — is more about David Horowitz’s shocking racism than it is about a 20-something college student who couldn’t swim in the deep-end of the pool with this guy.

        Taking candy from a baby, comes to mind.

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 5:12 pm

        “Having said that, I was bothered by the automatic defence mechanism that seems to have kicked in”

        Shmuel – Yonira posted a link to the vid a few days ago so there has been some discussion already you might not have seen:

        link to mondoweiss.net

      • edwin
        May 17, 2010, 3:50 pm

        Muslims are just as as human as everyone else is. Of course there are Muslim racists. The news here, though, is Horowitz, not some unknown Muslim.

        When Finklestein did the Nazi salute that was interesting and worth discussing. Talking about a racist comment some unknown Muslim made while being bated by Horowitz is part of the process of vilification of Muslims. The purpose is to spread hate, not to confront racism.

        If Philip wants to do a FEELING THE HATE with a whole bunch of Muslims, then that would be worth reporting and talking about.

      • Sumud
        May 17, 2010, 5:06 pm

        “Are there no Muslim racists? No Muslims who would support genocide?”

        But who is claiming there isn’t?

      • Shmuel
        May 17, 2010, 5:17 pm

        But who is claiming there isn’t?

        Those who may be a little too quick on the apologetics draw when confronted by Zionist propaganda. It’s another easy trap to fall into: if Horowitz says all Muslims are genocidal, I must argue that no Muslims are genocidal. Besides it’s really hard to stomach the fact that such a liar may actually be right once in a blue moon.

      • Cliff
        May 17, 2010, 7:05 pm

        There are Muslim racists, Muslims who support genocide. Basically, ‘bad Muslims’. I agree – I think that’s common sense.

        I think we may take this girl to be a symbol of ‘our side’ versus racist, fanatics like Horowitz – so perhaps we’re giving her too much credit, when the simple answer could be that she is indeed a racist.

        However, I really think, based on her changing composure towards the end of the exchange, that she was just super nervous and tense. I don’t get that vibe from her in the video. She’s in the Lion’s den too…I dunno. I believe her explanation.

        If this entire ordeal is an opportunity to reflect upon genuine Jew-haters in the pro-Palestinian camp, then so be it. It’s a legitimate issue.

    • David Samel
      May 17, 2010, 4:01 pm

      Oscar – thanks for the link to the woman’s statement. I found it entirely credible and consistent with the videotape. I had cringed when I first saw the exchange, but even then, thought it highly unlikely that this woman would have uttered those words herself, instead of defiantly (and foolishly) agreeing with something the more composed Horowitz challenged her with. I have no trouble believing her claim that she did not actually register Horowitz’s statement when supposedly agreeing with it. On the other hand, there is no doubt that the video is unsightly and will have far greater exposure than the woman’s explanation.

      Horowitz, of course, is a total schmuck who has no trouble lying and engaging in offensive racist rhetoric himself. The Nasrallah quote is extremely dubious on its face, and was ripped apart by Charles Glass, as annie (I think) linked on another thread. I have seen the quote spread far and wide, including in the New York Times (a book review, as I recall), and the only firsthand source of it is this shady reporter named Chayban. It is akin to the rumor of a few years ago that Iran’s Jews were going to have to wear a yellow star, only this one has much more staying power. It is a favorite talking point of the Dersh. We should all be far more concerned with the deliberate proliferation of such lies than this woman’s ill-advised answer to Horowitz’s loaded question. Nevertheless, the damage to a certain extent has been done. The video will be accepted as proof of the genocidal intent of Palestinians.

      Shmuel is concerned that truly anti-Semitic attitudes are well represented in the Palestinian rights movement. Maybe so, but I have seen enough admissions by befuddled witnesses under cross-examination to see that this woman did not mean what she appeared to say. However, this is the very reason I reacted sharply to Psychopathic God’s suggestion that the arrogant behavior of European Jews contributed to the Holocaust. There are people who scour the available media looking for evidence to tar anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, and actual expressions of anti-Semitism should be confronted and not excused or rationalized. The woman in the video provided such evidence, but she is guilty only of naivete and perhaps carelessness. Horowitz’s sins are infinitely greater, and morally repulsive as well.

      • Oscar
        May 17, 2010, 4:19 pm

        David, great reply, well articulated. I’m convinced this woman is humiliated, upset that her words were twisted for a purpose she could not have possibly imagined.

        The rise of pro-Palestinian sentiment on US campuses must keep David Horowitz awake at night. He must have had an epiphany as to how he could neutralize the movement. It was to get some deer-in-the-headlights questioner with a scarf to be on the receiving end of his no-win question. See my previous post where I think it’s suspicious that they had a two-camera coverage with exceptional production quality for an event at UCSD that drew maybe 14 people.

      • David Samel
        May 17, 2010, 4:38 pm

        Oscar, I’m one of those people who blithely accepted the excellent production quality without thinking about it until you pointed it out. I did notice the sparse audience, which I suppose is encouraging, but this may have been at the end of a long lecture and question period. But I don’t agree that it was a no-win question. It did have a simple answer. “Of course, I disagree that Jews should be hunted down.” I don’t think Horowitz could have expected agreement with the (false) statement of Nasrallah. I really think that she appeared a little nervous and simply missed what he said. Her written statement, on the other hand, was quite impressive.

        While Shmuel is right, and one should not excuse true expressions of anti-Semitism among those who advocate for Palestinian rights, the fact is that people like Horowitz will grossly exaggerate, and even fabricate, such incidents. I am a long-time Horowitz watcher (but I’ve been much less masochistic in recent years) and remember his outlandish accusation that the crowd at an ISM conference at U Michigan chanted “Kill the Jews.” He rightly calculates that people predisposed to believe this shit, even people who are otherwise fairly intelligent, will gullibly swallow such tales. The reason some believed this woman might be a plant (which she clearly was not) is that such tactic is not beyond Horowitz and his ilk.

      • Donald
        May 18, 2010, 10:48 am

        “remember his outlandish accusation that the crowd at an ISM conference at U Michigan chanted “Kill the Jews.” He rightly calculates that people predisposed to believe this shit, even people who are otherwise fairly intelligent, will gullibly swallow such tales.”

        That’s almost certainly the case. It’s standard among my friends to joke about anti-semitism and to mock it and to assume that it’s a constant undercurrent. I was bothered about a year ago when two friends of mine were mocking the Hamas Mickey Mouse show advocating hatred of Jews–as Shmuel says, there is real anti-semitism in some parts of the Palestinian rights movement (obviously), but what bothered me is that they didn’t stop to think about whether it takes much propaganda in Gaza to feel hatred or to notice that the line between “Jews” and “Israel” is one that is intentionally blurred by Israel and many Jewish supporters.

        Liberals in America lean over backwards to avoid even the slightest appearance of anti-semitism. It is a tightrope–I think there’s occasional genuine anti-semitism in the comments at this blog and it should be called out, but the mainstream liberal attitude in the US is to be hypersensitive about any criticism of Israel and to avoid like the plague any hint that Zionism itself might be at fault. People feel like they have to soften any criticism they make of Israel by carefully limiting its scope and by accompanying any criticism of Israel with equally harsh (or harsher) criticism of Palestinian violence. I think that accounts for the real power of the Israel lobby, at least among liberals.

      • Richard Witty
        May 18, 2010, 10:53 am

        I don’t think its a good idea to claim that “to notice that the line between “Jews” and “Israel” is one that is intentionally blurred by Israel and many Jewish supporters” as an excuse for anti-semitism.

        EVERY party has stimuli to their prejudices. It is the parties themselves that bear the prejudices, and the responsibilty to clarify them. If the prejudices enter into the political organizing, then they are naked and do not serve the movement (at least any movement that I would support).

      • Chu
        May 17, 2010, 4:28 pm

        David,

        It is kind of a loaded question.

        El Pregunta:
        “The head of Hezbollah has said that he hopes that we will gather in Israel > so he doesn’t have to hunt us down globally.”
        “For or against it?”

        Either way she answers she is guilty.
        1. stay in Israel collectively (to be hunted)
        2. stay dispersed throughout the planet (to be hunted)

        This is a winner for Horowitz, the Muslim Hater he is.

      • David Samel
        May 17, 2010, 4:41 pm

        I don’t think so, Chu, as I answered Oscar above. “Against it” is an unambiguous answer, and if she had been less nervous and more comfortable with her public challenge of a bullying a-hole, that’s what she would have said.

      • Chu
        May 17, 2010, 4:45 pm

        David, I’m going to have to agree with you.

  13. edwin
    May 17, 2010, 3:18 pm

    I understand where it came from; in many situations I observed, I could not blame them. But in the U.S., at a state school? This is not the way.

    This is not the United States / west that I know. The United States/West publishes cartoons of Muslims as sexual deviants, with big hook noses and as money grubbers. The United States/West that I know singles out Muslims for special scrutiny based on religion.

    Muslims are routinely vilified in the United States/west with mainstream groups like B’nai Breth openly engaging in hate propaganda. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DfCoy_kQh08/SvimLqkykHI/AAAAAAAABPo/Pybp5ZU–lY/s1600-h/Unholy+Alliance.jpg for example)

    No, it is not the way. Unfortunately it is the way that Muslims are treated in the West. The extreme right wing puts forward a `clash of civilizations`, and it at times becomes what they desire.

    It is amazing how people tend to live up to our expectations of them – for better or worse, and the US/west is in today`s world specializing in worse.

    • Sumud
      May 17, 2010, 11:43 pm

      I like how B’nai Brith put a little claim at the bottom of their “muslims are coming to kill everybody” poster “Responsible Jewish advocacy”. What a load of..

      • andrew r
        May 18, 2010, 3:52 am

        If someone was confronted about that poster, you just know they’re going to point out the ‘moderate Muslims’ marquee below as if that was a mitigation. The racism comes from a) finding genocidal ideologies only among Muslims and not in the enlightened world they supposedly threaten; b) denying Muslims the right to mobilize and take arms while not questioning western states’ rampaging through Muslim countries at their leisure and c) dividing Muslims into your enemies and ‘moderates’.

  14. The Hasbara Buster
    May 17, 2010, 3:45 pm

    I’d like to deconstruct a bit this young woman’s intervention. Of course it’s ugly and a huge victory for Hasbara, but is it actually as scary as you, Phil, claim it to be?

    It’s interesting to note Horowitz’s own reflection: “What’s shocking is not so much that she holds such views, but rather that she was willing to admit it.” Translation: these Muslims have a lot to learn in the way of hypocrisy. I recall that when the Twin Towers were blown up, many, many people in Argentina were exultant. The general comment in the bars and on the street was: “serves them right,” “it was about time they tasted their own medicine.” But the media said not a word about the public’s reaction. We’re a Catholic country, we don’t hate, and if we do, we sweep it under the rug. Horowitz knows that the West hates, too, and what he objects to is not the hate itself, but the candor with which it’s expressed.

    But getting into a deeper layer of analysis, is it actual hate? Does this “For it” represent the student’s actual thinking? Or does it belong in the realm of “I’ll say this to piss you off”? Would she spontaneously support the Hamas chief’s statement (which itself is just words, as attested by the regime’s attitutde towards Jewish intellectuals who support the Gaza struggle?), or did she first think about it at Horowitz’s prompting?

    Are there any indications that this Muslim student ever engaged in Jew-hating? Horowitz was debating dishonestly. A more experienced activist would have reacted differently; they would have responded “I’m asking a question, and questioning the questioner is an ad hominem attack,” or some such. Clearly the student’s “For it” reflected her frustration at not being able to identify the fallacy and defuse it rather than an inner desire to kill all Jews. (Very much like the morning I found two intoxicated teenagers scribbling graffiti on the hood of my car. Told them “I’m gonna kill you. I’m gonna get a piece of wire and hang you both from that light pole.” Didn’t.)

    If anything is scary here is the Muslim students’ lack of preparation, rather than an evidently nonexistent genocidal design.

    • David Samel
      May 17, 2010, 4:09 pm

      Ibrahim – Warm regards from this side of the Equator, my friend. Hope your trip went well.

      As good as your analysis is here, take a look at Oscar’s link to the woman’s statement.

    • Avi
      May 17, 2010, 5:38 pm

      But getting into a deeper layer of analysis, is it actual hate? Does this “For it” represent the student’s actual thinking? Or does it belong in the realm of “I’ll say this to piss you off”?

      I’m leaning toward that explanation. It was clear from her tone of voice that she merely wanted to annoy him, but she wasn’t smart enough to realize the consequences of that action. Her body language and the choppy voice at the beginning are proof of her nervousness. That is to say that when nervous, many people tend to revert to their basic instincts instead of thinking clearly and logically.

      If I were in her position I probably would have retorted with a question about the settlers, the JDL (Gas the Arabs) or the Hebron fund. Ask him “Yes” or “No”? Because at that point the exchange is not about intellectual honesty anymore (not that it ever is with D. Horowitz), but merely an opportunity to score rhetorical debate points.

      Unfortunately for her, he used her for his own propaganda purposes.

      Was Phil trying to test the waters, get some feedback about the video by posting this, or is he truly scared?

      I think Phil is giving the student too much credit.

      • Avi
        May 17, 2010, 5:45 pm

        [...] revert to their basic instincts instead of thinking clearly and logically.

        And when I say “tend to revert to their basic instincts” I mean that her emotions got the better of her at which point her primary focus became annoying Horowitz.

      • andrew r
        May 18, 2010, 2:48 am

        Horowitz would’ve spun that around and scored more points by distancing himself from extremist settlers. She would have to be more agile at that point, maybe ask why he feels the need to do so. Is it because of the Israeli occupation and illegal settlements that these extremists are even there to write their hateful grafitti? And are you trying to excuse it? Something like that.

      • andrew r
        May 18, 2010, 2:49 am

        Trying to excuse the occupation, that is, not the grafitti.

  15. Oscar
    May 17, 2010, 7:07 pm

    This just in . . . Major BDS victory. Elvis Costello pulls out of Israeli tour dates:
    link to elviscostello.com

  16. matter
    May 17, 2010, 7:30 pm

    Horowitz is a witless whore for Zionist racism.

  17. thankgodimatheist
    May 17, 2010, 10:05 pm

    Never answer a “yes or no” question. It a law!

  18. robin
    May 18, 2010, 12:33 am

    Absolutely disgusting behavior by Horowitz. Why in the world should she have to answer any question from him — a man who is getting paid to write and speak about his opinions — let alone one so loaded and offensive? With that and the keffiyeh comment, he is the real racist in the video (with a written record to confirm that). Unfortunate that so many people will not read the woman’s explanation, and will persist in a backwards interpretation of the video because of how it fits into their worldview.

    Interesting discussion above about disavowing nasty views in “our camp” or in the Arab/Muslim world. I think it is useful to articulate things we oppose in principle — genocide, discrimination of any kind, for example. But I don’t think that obligates us to accept bigoted premises, like, “sure many Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims/leftists support genocide/hate Jews, but I/my organization oppose that.” We can condemn, at the appropriate time/place , specific statements (like Horowitz’s quote if it had been real) or actions. But we should not be a party to generalizations, misrepresentations, and the general demonization of our own movement and of the people whose rights we are defending against ongoing violations.

    The stereotypes they are working with here may be irrational, but they can certainly be effective in getting people to identify with a “side” and support them politically. Without counter-stereotyping, I think there is value to our cause in combating these images and generalizations. I think there is value in arguing against (as I personally would) the notion “there is no shortage of racism and fanaticism in the pro-Palestinian camp”. (How many Palestinians compared to Israelis are actually armed combatants?) It serves us well to point out the remarkable tolerance of so many Palestinians in the face of hatred, even as we stress that the basic rights of a people do not hinge on the political correctness of all its members.

  19. Shmuel
    May 18, 2010, 1:15 am

    Robin: I think there is value in arguing against (as I personally would) the notion “there is no shortage of racism and fanaticism in the pro-Palestinian camp”. (How many Palestinians compared to Israelis are actually armed combatants?) It serves us well to point out the remarkable tolerance of so many Palestinians in the face of hatred, even as we stress that the basic rights of a people do not hinge on the political correctness of all its members.

    Robin,

    My “no shortage” remark was not meant to characterise the Palestinian camp as a whole, and in other contexts, I too would argue against it (and have). I agree absolutely with your last two remarks. I have found remarkable tolerance both among ordinary Palestinians and among Palestinian intellectuals – so very far from the false image Zionists and neocons have tried to create in order to conceal/defend their own intolerance.

    even as we stress that the basic rights of a people do not hinge on the political correctness of all its members.

    That was my main point. Horowitz (and those disseminating the video) tried to do two things: to imply that all Arabs/Muslims/Palestinian activists are racists (“this happens every time”), and that Palestinians have thus somehow forfeited their basic rights. The best way to deal with this is to recognise racist statements as such, denounce the generalisation as no less racist, and assert that the basic rights of a people do not hinge on the political correctness of all its members.

    When we bend over backwards to explain and to rationalise, we accept the premises of the Horowitzes that a racist comment by a Palestinian somehow detracts from the justness of the Palestinian cause.

  20. Chaos4700
    May 18, 2010, 1:37 am

    I find it rather obscene that apparently the tap dance yonira did on the Nakba memorial thread actually worked, considering here we have a topic on just that now. (“Mondolies” still, hmm yonira?)

    Jewish tribalism 1, honest debate 0.

    • Shmuel
      May 18, 2010, 1:45 am

      Chaos,

      Why do you think this is about Jewish tribalism, and do you really think that there was no honest debate in this thread?

      • Chaos4700
        May 18, 2010, 1:48 am

        Point taken, there was some really good discussion on this thread but you can’t tell me you haven’t notice that even the faintest whiff of making someone out to be an anti-Semite sends Mr. Weiss running into hand-wringing, circle-the-wagons around the Jewish people territory.

        You’ll forgive me if I’m bitter that he just jumps on yonira’s bait while that yahoo runs around making homosexual hate speech at me undeterred whenever I call him out on his shitty arguments.

      • Shmuel
        May 18, 2010, 2:17 am

        I’m not sure that yonira’s link was the reason Phil decided to post this (he says he got it from a couple of friends). In any case, I think he did well to address this latest hasbara offensive. I almost feel sorry for the next poor troll who tries to post this propaganda anywhere frequented by Mondies. Forewarned, forearmed and all of that.

        You may be right about the “scary” part.

  21. Richard Witty
    May 18, 2010, 7:31 am

    The question was a set-up by Horowitz.

    “Do you condemn Hamas/Hezbollah?” should have been “do you condemn x action, or y attitude?”

    • aparisian
      May 18, 2010, 7:37 am

      The question i ‘d tell him i condemn violence but Mr Horowitz

      “Do you condemn the Jewish Zionist terrorists acts on unarmed Palestinian civilians from 1948? Do you condemn the illegal occupation, and the apartheid policies of Israel? The war crimes committed in Gaza and Lebanon?”

      The girl is stupid, she was emerged by the emotions and the ugly Zionist Horowitz got her.

      • Richard Witty
        May 18, 2010, 7:41 am

        The girl didn’t do that. She stepped right into it.

        Who knows what she really meant? Know one can know from the exchange.

      • Richard Witty
        May 18, 2010, 7:43 am

        I’ve seen and heard much worse at Palestinian solidarity demonstrations, though with no genocidal implications, just active unconditional and uncontrolled hostility.

      • aparisian
        May 18, 2010, 7:47 am

        Yes Witty.. The problem of Arab organisations that they are not good in communication as Zionists.
        I read her statement after the incident and i really think she is sincere. The antisemites actions/speech we see from times to times in the Arab world is more motivated to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, its unlike the anti-semite acts we know in Europe. The Arabic anti-semites have no problem with rich Jews nor with assimilation etc..

      • Sumud
        May 18, 2010, 8:08 am

        ” just active unconditional and uncontrolled hostility.”

        A wordy way of saying “irrational hatred” a la yonira.

        “Who knows what she really meant? ”

        She (Jumanah Imad Albahri) has made a public statement on the event, it’s linked like 3 times in the comments. Miss it?

      • aparisian
        May 18, 2010, 8:13 am

        Sumud, Zionists will use this video for the next 2 decades lol

      • Richard Witty
        May 18, 2010, 8:24 am

        Sumud,
        Stop the potshots. “Who knows what she really meant? ” followed by “you couldn’t tell from the clip”.

        You’ve never seen unconditional and uncontrolled hostility at Palestinian solidarity demonstrations? I have, close up.

      • Chaos4700
        May 18, 2010, 9:51 am

        The woman steps on a rhetorical land mine set by a Zionist.

        Predictably, Witty blames the victim. She’s just not Jewish enough to be a real victim, huh.

      • Chaos4700
        May 18, 2010, 9:52 am

        Where’s your infamous “This is out of context” tack, Witty?

        Something else you want to make Jews-only?

      • aparisian
        May 18, 2010, 10:22 am

        Well witty i have seen/heard unconditional and uncontrolled hostility in Jewish community here in Paris behind the doors, i have also seen how Israel is teaching this culture of unconditional and uncontrolled hatred to the new generations as you can see it at link to instablogsimages.com

      • Richard Witty
        May 18, 2010, 10:29 am

        I have as well. It sickened me, and an in a few cases, I confronted Jewish leaders on it.

        But, in my way, not in yours.

      • Chaos4700
        May 18, 2010, 10:41 am

        Meaning, you wrung your hands, fretted about it, then went back to coming up with excuses of how Geneva Conventions don’t apply to Palestinians and how maybe there are some situations were it’s OK to use an F-16 to level a refugee camp.

  22. MuslimCommenter
    May 18, 2010, 7:43 am

    Phil, there’s nothing scary about it. That girl asked a valid question: where is your proof that my organization is tied with anyone? He dodged the question.

    I think her saying “For it” was nothing more or less than a “Fuck you.”

    A terrorist neckerchief? What if she had said, “Where is your terrorist yarmulke?” Would Commentary have understood the irony?

    Horowitz goes around peddling the idea that all Muslim organizations are tied to a global network bent on world domination loyal only to themselves. Sound familiar to anyone here?

    • Chu
      May 18, 2010, 9:54 am

      I’m surprised Phil posted this garbage, with the title ‘scary’ in it.
      This man baited a novice in the audience, and then calls her a
      terrorist.
      Antisemitism? Really…

  23. stevieb
    May 18, 2010, 10:07 am

    There isn’t, and never has been, any reason not to support Hezbollah or Hamas.

    They are, and will remain -until there is a satisfactory conclusion to this conflict for the Palestinians – legitimate governments and government members resisting Israeli colonialism. The Palestinian solidarity movement isn’t here to criticize or upset victims in their battles for freedom and recognition.

    Everything else is nonsense..

  24. stevieb
    May 18, 2010, 10:17 am

    Anti-Semitism is definitely quite popular in Palestine – for reasons that are too obvious to mention. The way to fix that particular problem – the problem as it pertains to Palestine – is to fix the racist, apartheid state that continues to hold the world hostage while realizing it’s fascist goals.

    No more “Jewish” state. Because there is no need for one , and the one there is an immoral, illegal construction. The ones’ that can’t live in peace with others can leave. Or be forced out…

  25. stevieb
    May 18, 2010, 10:27 am

    Cor, Phil – Michael Totten ?

    The Israel Lobby’s man on the beat in Iraq? You’ll be wanting to steer clear of this particular neoconservative liar – if you are still trying to be part of a solution , that is.

  26. Richard Parker
    May 18, 2010, 11:15 am

    stevieb is quite correct; both Hamas and Hezbollah are legitimately elected majorities (or pluralities, at least) of their respective peoples in Occupied Palestine and Lebanon. I’m not sure that such a majority, if any majority at all, was won by Netanyahu’s Likud.

    There is absolutely no reason to condemn either.

    Now, if either Hosni Mubarrak or King Abdullah was to allow free elections, with the voters’ majority gaining power, then Israel would have 3-4 ‘terrorist’ groups surrounding her, and might have to come to a sensible accomodation instead of continuously screaming ‘VICTIM!’

    • Chaos4700
      May 18, 2010, 11:21 am

      Certainly there is no logic to putting Hamas and Hezbollah on a terrorist watch list that excludes the Mossad, Shin Bet and more than half of Israel’s political parties as represented in the Knesset.

      • aparisian
        May 18, 2010, 11:23 am

        Hezbollah is not on the terrorist organisations in Europe for ex.

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