Palestine Papers: Why there will never be a State of Palestine

One core lesson from the “Palestine Papers,” Al Jazeera‘s leak of secret documents on Israeli-Palestinian negotiations from 1999 to 2010, is that there will never be a State of Palestine, living side by side with Israel.  This was known before, but the papers confirm it.  The mainstream narrative–that Israel and the Palestinians have been talking for nearly 20 years and are very close to reaching an agreement but just have to sit at the table for a little more time–is not credible anymore.  Why has Israel refused the Palestinian Authority’s offers, which offered up most of East Jerusalem, major illegal settlement blocs and a complete denial of the rights of Palestinian refugees?

Writing in Al Jazeera, Alastair Crooke offers this explanation:

Zionists are also likely to conclude that a Palestinian state, established alongside Israel, would be active in efforts to generate international support for the principle of minority rights in Israel – and thus threaten the Zionist basis of the state by delegitimizing their state as racist.

Ultimately the issue of differential rights for Jews and non-Jews is not in principle eased by establishing a Palestinian state. Its magnitude may be reduced from 40-50% to 20%, but the inherent contradiction remains unresolved – in either outcome. Against this ambivalent calculus, it is not surprising that the Zionist argument for keeping borders undefined, leaving Palestinians in deliberate uncertainty and hostage to their good conduct, whilst holding on to water and land resources, has trumped other Israelis arguing for downsizing the differential rights problem, and improving the minority’s treatment – albeit short of granting full rights to non-Jews in all matters. This is the calculus that has predominated. This is why we do not have a Palestinian state.

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{ 86 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. MHughes976 says:

    Whether the Palestinians would really accept in a referendum some version of the classic (I use words like classic and hallowed because it’s all been around so long and invested with so much solemn hope) 2SS, which is monstrously unfair, I don’t know. I do feel sure that the Israelis would never propose it because the fundamental idea of Zionism is that there can be no rightful, relevant presence of people who are not Jewish.
    For all that the 2SS is often proclaimed dead (I’d rather say undead) I tend to think that if an American President put forward a fully detailed plan and pressed for a referendum – there would be a chorus of approval all over the world – it would be very hard for anyone, from Likud to Hamas, to refuse to let a referendum be held. What would happen next is harder to predict – a similar plan fell apart in Cyprus – but it’s possible that there would be massive majority on both sides. And then the problem could be put to sleep for a few decades.

  2. clenchner says:

    The Israeli left (which is made up of both Jews and Arabs) has argued for years that an essential reason for going ahead with a two state solution already is the need to address other internal issues. It may be that Kane has identified a reason why some pols will never allow a 2ss. But it also explains why a 2ss is such an important goal. Once it happens, the contradictions in Israeli society around class, ethnicity, the secular/religious divide are sure to escalate, providing the long awaited opportunity for significant political progress.
    A one state solution leap frogs over the need for Israeli society to transform, and instead calls for the abolition of Israeli society.

    • Avi says:

      A one state solution leap frogs over the need for Israeli society to transform, and instead calls for the abolition of Israeli society.

      Israeli society, a term that usually refers to the Jewish majority, has had more than 60 years to transform. In addition, Israeli society, due to its very inherent desire to associate itself with the so-called west, maintain its ties with its European roots and look westward instead of eastward, will NEVER transform. To pin social and political divisions within Israeli society on Palestinians is both unfair and dishonest.

      • clenchner says:

        Only a racist would exclude the 20% of Israelis who are not Jewish. Now, I’m not calling you a racist, only suggesting that for significant parts of Israeli society, including ‘everyone’ and celebrating the multicultural reality, is a positive thing. You might want to join in that.
        This tendency to associate Israel with the west is greatly weakened these days. I look at the role of Shas and Lieberman, the dwindling of the old school Ashkenazi elite, the growth of fundamentalism, and see that truly western values and attachments are quite lacking.
        Finally – I am not blaming Palestinians for anything. Not sure why you wrote that. The occupation is a barrier keeping Israel behind – that’s not exactly a controversial point among opponents of the occupation.

    • seafoid says:

      “A one state solution leap frogs over the need for Israeli society to transform, and instead calls for the abolition of Israeli society”

      Clenchner

      Erez Israel is already a one state solution with new improved bantustans. In your meme above, “Israeli society” is code for “Jewish privilege”.

    • sherbrsi says:

      A one state solution leap frogs over the need for Israeli society to transform, and instead calls for the abolition of Israeli society.

      Perhaps the abolition of Israeli society (which is at this point, as Avi points out, just another name for the Jewish majority, which has entrenched occupation, settlement and ethnic cleansing as required features of any Israeli regime) is exactly what Israel needs to transform.

      The Palestinians don’t exist to serve as the motivation force for Israelis to improve their society. They have suffered enough waiting for Zionism to mature. Instead, it is devolving more and more into fascism by the day.

    • RoHa says:

      “A one state solution leap frogs over the need for Israeli society to transform, and instead calls for the abolition of Israeli society.”

      Sounds like a good idea to me.

      • clenchner says:

        RoHa, supporting the elimination of someone’s society is tantamount to support for genocide.
        It is more or less the equivalent of folks suggesting that Palestine and Palestinians have no right to exist. Only, suggesting that Palestine shouldn’t exist is right wing hate speech, and suggesting that Israel shouldn’t exist is left wing hate speech. In both cases there is a clear violation of the right to self determination.

        • seafoid says:

          Demanding civil rights for catholics in Northern Ireland wasn t genocide , you moron. Erez Israel will exist for as long as is practical . It may not necessarily always have a Jewish majority.

        • annie says:

          supporting the elimination of someone’s society is tantamount to support for genocide

          so why didn’t you just say “A one state solution leap frogs over the need for Israeli society to transform, and calls for genocide.”

          is that what you meant?

        • eljay says:

          >> … supporting the elimination of someone’s society is tantamount to support for genocide.

          Making such a claim is tantamount to stupidity.

        • clenchner says:

          I don’t rule out a one state solution. It was RoHa that explicitly supported the elimination of Israeli society.
          I don’t think all or most supporters of a one state solution are trying to eliminate Israeli society or that they are plotting various crimes. Supporters of a ‘binational’ state for example are being inclusive of Israeli society.

        • annie says:

          oh stop w/your elimination hyperbole rhetoric. the only person who explicitly used the words elimination or genocide was you, ratcheting it up w/each comment. the framework of an apartheid society should be abolished. she copy pasted your original statement, live w/it.

        • RoHa says:

          “she copy pasted your original statement”

          She?

        • RoHa says:

          ” supporting the elimination of someone’s society is tantamount to support for genocide.”

          No it isn’t. I’m not suggesting that anyone get killed. I’m suggesting that the Israeli society cease to exist and be replaced by a decent society.

          “suggesting that Israel shouldn’t exist is left wing hate speech.”

          (1) Nothing left wing about it. The left in Britain and Australia includes plenty of Israel supporters.
          (2) It isn’t hate speech. It is a judgement based on morality.

          “a clear violation of the right to self determination.”

          The right to self determination does not give the right to choose an immoral project.

  3. eljay says:

    >> … I tend to think that if an American President put forward a fully detailed plan and pressed for a referendum …

    That’s a pretty big if. I don’t think there’s any President – not even Barack “Damn, I’m slick!” Obama – who’d willingly risk his political career, his reputation and possibly his life by taking a moral and just stand against Israel, the Israel Lobby and the countless corporate, industrial and military interests involved in the business that is “a good in the world”. Hell, I don’t think gawd hisself would risk it.

    That leaves the Freedom Fries nations of “old Europe” and the Islamofascist-soaked countries of the Middle East to stand up for what’s right. And if/when Israel becomes a large enough liability, then maybe America will come to believe in “justice and peace” in the region. But not before then.

    In my opinion. :-)

  4. seafoid says:

    It all boils down to money. Israel is first world because the bantustans are third world. What Israeli Jew is going to give up that status ? Even the best of the (very limited) best won’t. The 2 state solution joke is over. What will Israel replace it with ? Israel has never been more vulnerable.

    In retrospect it was very short sighted to go to war in 1967 and then occupy the 22% of Palestine that fell by the wayside in 1948.

    Zionism is an endlessly replicating and expanding model built around one dud assumption- “you don’t belong here”.

  5. Taxi says:

    We’re talking about all this fake peace negotiations like israel is gonna survive the next approaching regional war that it’s planning and actually ‘get’ what erzel it wants through it’s next aggression, ie the WHOLE of historic Palestine, keep the Golan and take a slice of southern Lebanon’s Litani River. (Did we really need the Palestine Papers to know that the israelis want EVERYTHING ie, land AND population ‘transfer’?!)

    Like the european colonialists think they can ‘achieve’ a religiously pure state in the mid east in the 21st century remains a sick joke the world has indulged them in long enough!

    I’m sorry to tell you folks but it’s just a question of time before 1.3 billion moslems from fifty countries challenge the european zionists ‘biblical’ claim to the whole of Jerusalem. Let’s see how Livni and Co set up ‘negotiations’ with them non-Palestinian, rich, armed and furious countries.

    Things just aren’t what they use to be anymore – we really are living in anger-flash times where enduring political tables are turned overnight.

    Don’t bank on ‘business as usual’ anymore – we’re in the ‘flux’ phase.

    • eee says:

      Taxi,

      It is because of fantasies like yours that the Palestinians are where they are now. Very soon some mythical Muslim country is going to save them (which one exactly?). They can only count on themselves. You should believe me when I tell you. We Jews learnt this the hard way.

      • Taxi says:

        eee,

        Jerusalem is a global moslem issue, not a Palestinian one. This is what the moslem nations tell us. So it’s you who needs to wake up and smell the moslem coffee that will forever be part of Jerusalem.

        Your impossible to achieve and cruel zionist fantasy is EXACTLY the reason the region is on fire, not my analysis of your imminent demise (due by the way to your systematic and remorseless cruelty).

        Yeah eee dream on believing you really ‘dictate’ the terms of Jerusalem as behind closed doors fundamentalist and nuclear armed Pakistan for instance starts ‘feeling’ the zionist imposition is challenging the integrity and safety of their religious sites therefore their faith therefore their honor.

        Get with the program eee and friends of eee, we’re already in the future!

        Everything you ever thought you ‘knew’ about the middle east you need to throw out the window as of last (Tunisia) week.

        Cuz that’s yesterday’s tapestry. So much so that it’s sudden appearance took even the great powers of America and israel by surprise (where the hell’s our intelligence in the Maghreb, vacationing at the Hamamat with their israeli counterparts?!)

        It just so happens eee that some of us are quick-witted and watching the new weave and weaver, while others are stuck trying to stitch up the filthy old rags of yesterday.

        With EVERYTHING that’s gone on in the region in just the last ten days, ’tis clear that the old status quo is dying – which ultimately leaves zionists and their supporters with dry lips and week bladders.

        • eee says:

          Ok, more trash talk. Good luck with that. And keep counting on Pakistan. That will get you even farther.

        • Taxi says:

          Hey eee, here’s a list of ALL the moslem countries you will soon have to sit down to negotiate Jerusalem with:
          link to en.wikipedia.org

          It’s your choice to remain living in the 20th century.

        • eee says:

          Why didn’t you tell me before Albania is on the list? Now I am really scared. If any Muslim country really supported the Palestinians, they would have shown it by now. Let me remind you that even Hezbollah did not shoot ONE rocket during Cast Lead. No one, absolutely no on, came to their help. Show me some real action and then you can speak trash as much as you want.

        • Taxi says:

          Oh okay let’s have Albania on the list then if it makes you feel more pompous and secure!!

          And you think Jerusalem is only about Palestinians and euro zionists? You don’t ‘believe’ the so called vast moslem umma of 1.3 billion have a ‘say’ in what happens to Jerusalem? Dream on friendo.

          And you think israel can do another ‘cast lead’ without regional interference from the hizb, syria, iran AND quite likely Turkey too? You think the PA still has the power to overtly/covertly cover your behinds from the imminent third intifada?

          I’ll remind you that the above is a promise delivered to the israelis through Nasrallah.

          Ignore these realities and insist on living in your 20th century fluffy bubble at your own risk.

      • Potsherd2 says:

        In some ways, eee is quite correct in his smug conclusions. The Palestinians are doomed, there will be no Palestinian state and no one will come to their aid.

        But the fault of this belongs entirely to the Zionists and their US enablers, and it is a measure of eee’s depravity that he gloats about it instead of expressing shame, but Zionists know no shame.

        • Taxi says:

          Why the gloom and doom Potsy? Tunisia, the Palestine Papers, the new Lebanese government, tangible stirrings of revolution on the streets of Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, etc – all this is good news for the Palestinians and bad news for the zionists and the corrupt status quo supporters.

          We maybe seeing a regional ‘intifada’ in the making.

          Because there is no other option left for the downtrodden masses.

          I know there’s a cost to this ‘change’, but there’s also a grave cost to living under the old status quo too.

        • eee says:

          Potsherd2,

          I appreciate your willingness to face the truth. But it seems that you want to call people names instead of moving forward. There can still be a 2 state solution, the Palestinians need to keep negotiating. They will not get a more supporting US president than Obama. The Palestinians just have to accept that they are negotiating from a very weak position and to make the most of it.

        • Taxi says:

          “There can still be a 2 state solution, the Palestinians need to keep negotiating”.

          Bwahahhahahahaaha!

        • Potsherd2 says:

          The only “forward” is the Israeli drang nach osten to the Jordan.

          It’s obvious from the leaked reports, as it was obvious before them, that Israel will not accept any Palestinian proposal and will continue to refuse to propose any of its own, other than “we take it all and you get squat.” It is obvious also that Obama is determined to quash any remaining scrap of Palestinian independence.

          When evil triumphs, the only thing left is to name it evil.

        • Potsherd2 says:

          Taxi, within two months we will see all these popular uprisings crushed with nothing to show for them but blood running in the gutters. The US government will not tolerate the emergence of freedom anywhere in the mideast.

          The intifada will have to begin at home.

        • seafoid says:

          And it is time to open Jerusalem to Muslim pilgrims. Jewish hegemony has been a disaster. The city has become a shoddy magnet for poverty. Compare it to Mecca FFS.

        • Taxi says:

          Pots,

          The Arab bird wants to be free. And it ain’t dying with it’s children in the same old cage.

          That’s what the stirred arab street is saying.

          I’ve seen the footage and the banners, I’ve heard the hoarse voices of demonstrators articulating/yelling into tv cameras.

          We have not heard this mass loud call-out before, simultaneously from several arab countries under dictatorships.

          This is just the beginning of the breaking of the seam.

          “The status quo is unsustainable”.

          Never a germane and sage phrase eh?

        • pjdude says:

          I agree but that is no reason to let the thugs get away with it.

        • sherbrsi says:

          The Palestinians just have to accept that they are negotiating from a very weak position and to make the most of it.

          There are always people who will insist on imposing their own facts. Seems like you are one of those people, eee.

          What you don’t realize is that even if the Palestinians were to accept the so-called two-state solution at this point, what Israel will have made for them are tiny “bubbles” (the Israeli term for Bantustans) with limited Palestinian control and Israeli-army occupation. The fact on the ground made by the Israelis is that they have laid the foundation of a de-facto and full-fledged apartheid state. Listen to your leader, Olmert, who said the same thing when leaving his term: Israel has to abandon the settlements or accept its status as an apartheid state. The ones who will lose the most by imposing this two-state solution are the Israelis, who won’t be able to use the lack of Palestinian sovereignty or authority to make land grabs or steal water with impunity as they do today. Nothing will drive BDS faster than the state Israel has envisioned for the Palestinians, you can be sure of that.

      • Citizen says:

        Oh, yes, eee, we see you’ve learned more than one thing from the Germans.

        • eee says:

          “Oh, yes, eee, we see you’ve learned more than one thing from the Germans.”

          I hope so, there are many good things to learn from Germans. I especially like their vocational training system.

  6. eee says:

    The two state solution is far from dead. The negotiations will continue as there is no other solution. If they abolish the PA, they will lose all international monetary support. If they don’t cooperate with Israel, the West Bank will deteriorate just as quickly as Gaza. It took the Palestinians 62 years to put themselves into this pickle, but there you have it. They have no military option, they are not united and there is no viable alternative in the wing waiting to replace Fatah or Hamas.

    All the time, Israel becomes even more important to the US as it is the only ally it can count on long term in the area. Lebanon is being taken over by Hezbollah and the Arab dictatorships are wobbly and if they are replaced will be replaced by anti-American regimes.

    • RoHa says:

      “Israel becomes even more important to the US as it is the only ally it can count on long term in the area.”

      And what has this “ally” ever done to help the US?

      “Lebanon is being taken over by Hezbollah and the Arab dictatorships are wobbly and if they are replaced will be replaced by anti-American regimes.”

      If the Americans started supporting the Arab people, anti-American regimes would evaporate.

      “Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.” (Attributed to John Sheehan, S.J.)

      • eee says:

        Even Walt and Mearsheimer agree that during the cold war Israel was a very valuable ally to the US. And as the US relative power wanes and the world becomes more multi-polar, the value of a trusted ally always goes up. Eisenhower forced Israel, the UK and France out of the Sinai in 1956. Yet, the majority of the Arab world still preferred the Soviet Union to the US in the Cold War and turned their back on Eisenhower. The hostility of the Arab world to the US is much more complex than you portray it to be.

        • Philip Weiss says:

          i love it that you’re quoting w&m. i have long said that supporters of the 2ss need walt and mearsheimer, j street needs them for any coalition to take on the lobby

        • eee says:

          As the geopolitical situation changes, even realists will have to admit that Israel is valuable as an ally. How does that help your cause?

        • pjdude says:

          Israel’s creation prolonged the cold war. any alleged benefit most be viewed through that lens

        • RoHa says:

          “Even Walt and Mearsheimer agree that during the cold war Israel was a very valuable ally to the US. And as the US relative power wanes and the world becomes more multi-polar, the value of a trusted ally always goes up. ”

          And what has this “ally” ever done to help the US?

          “Eisenhower forced Israel, the UK and France out of the Sinai in 1956. Yet, the majority of the Arab world still preferred the Soviet Union to the US in the Cold War and turned their back on Eisenhower.”

          Ike did one good thing. But the USSR worked hard at winning over the Arab world by, for example, helping to fund the Aswan High Dam.

    • Light says:

      It’s over eee. The whole world can see the negotiations were a fraud. I’d say Israel missed the opportunity. The Palestinians agreed to everything and it still wasn’t enough for Israel.

      • eee says:

        Light,

        The negotiations were not a fraud at all, and that is clear from the papers. There was no concrete proposal that Israel rejected. Listen to Ben-Ami on Aljazeera. There is really nothing new in these papers. You now what, prove me wrong. What peace proposal did Israel reject? And how can you say in one breath that the Palestinians agreed to everything and that the Palestinian (street or people) reject these proposals? Which one is it?

        The papers show what is obvious anyway that the Palestinians are super weak compared to Israel. Well, 62 years of mistakes brings you to that position.

    • seafoid says:

      “All the time, Israel becomes even more important to the US as it is the only ally it can count on long term in the area. ”

      Great powers have only interests. The Us will betray Israel. Israel will betray the settlers. Hey, bad things happen to people all the time !

    • Jim Haygood says:

      ‘It took the Palestinians 62 years to put themselves in this pickle.’

      One could just as well say that it took the Israelis 62 years to put themselves in their own hellish pickle identified by Alistair Crooke — ‘the issue of differential rights for Jews and non-Jews is not in principle eased by establishing a Palestinian state. Its magnitude may be reduced from 40-50% to 20%, but the inherent contradiction remains unresolved.’

      Israel is the world’s only state which enshrines ethnic privilege in law, while working tirelessly to demographically marginalize its minorities. Sorry, but Israel really can’t get away with this in the 21st century, and the devalued Shoah trump card no longer suffices to purchase a moral indulgence for Israeli exceptionalism. It’s over.

      • eee says:

        Jim,

        Yeah, more trash talk and short sightedness. Israel is light years ahead of all its neighbors in giving rights to minorities. Again and again Arabs living in Israel would not change their status for anything, they like living in Israel because they know how much better it is than any Arab country. But keep demonizing Israel.

    • Citizen says:

      So the Palestinians put themselves into this pickle? And Israel is the only ally the US can count on in the area? The Palestinian sin is to be born in Palestine. The US sin is to literally act like that is a crime; this is because its leaders are bribed, courtesy of AIPAC and a giant defect in the US political campaign system. The cold war has been over for awhile. It’s fantasy replacement, the war on terror, clash of civilizations, will be seen for what it really is, PNAC rhetoric, in due economic time. The Crusades eventually ended. China, India, Brazil are biding there time. And Iran will also still be there for the next century. Tunisia is an early symptom.

      • eee says:

        Citizen,

        Decisions have consequences. The Palestinians have made bad decisions over 62 years. These things add up you know. One huge bad decision was not remaining united. Another was always following extremists from 1948 till the death of Arafat. Another was trusting the Arabs. Another was underestimating Israel and predicting its early demise, which you are also doing.

        • pjdude says:

          Only a person as sick as you could blame people for standing up for their rights. they haven’t made bad decisions they just underestimated the greed and willingness to be evil on the part of zionism. I don’t know why I am saying this. your thug and always will be one just like ISrael

    • pjdude says:

      its are only ally because we screwed over all the other countries that wanted to be friendly with us to give your faith rights it doesn’t have and property that it stole

    • pjdude says:

      No the reason the US supports Israel has nothing to do with it being a good ally( its not its killed more americans than probably almost every other country in the region and hell out side wars it has killed the most) and everything to do with the jew vote. the day the arab/muslim vote becomes more important than the jew vote the support will fade away

  7. sherbrsi says:

    The documents have revealed a salient but often ignored point that while Israel’s remaining Arab Palestinians historically served as the token minority population (a display of the tolerance and rights accorded by the “Jewish state”) the existence of Palestinian-Israelis has become a burden on Israel. It is not enough that Israel be a Jewish state (which requires the cleansing of its majority Arab population), it must now also be a ethnically homogeneous Jewish state (requiring that Israel become virtually Arabrein). The settlers have made their strategic asset clear: a bargaining chip for Israel to give up a few settlements here and there, and have Palestine accept the Arabs Israel wants to rid itself off.

    I wonder how the “liberal” Zionists will respond to Livni’s offer of an ethnic transfer, who throw a tantrum on the invocation of the apartheid parallel. Her elaborations on her proposal are even more racist, and a tacit admission that Zionists cannot ideologically or willfully accommodate non-Jews.

    • Jim Haygood says:

      ‘The settlers have made their strategic asset clear: a bargaining chip for Israel to give up a few settlements here and there, and have Palestine accept the Arabs Israel wants to rid itself off.’

      That’s a monstrous assertion, you know. But it makes more sense than any other explanation. Occam’s Razor strikes again!

  8. If anything, I think that the Palestine Papers indicate that the two-state solution is more likely as a result.

    Primarily for the removal of the illusion that the PA was uncooperative.

    The division within the Palestinian community remains (a large obstacle to the two-state solution). And the rational and opportunistic recalcitrance of Israel to negotiate remains.

    It may be that the Palestinian community distrusts the PA, and that Alex and others urge (beyond merely observing).

    • Donald says:

      “Primarily for the removal of the illusion that the PA was uncooperative”

      Cooperative understates it. It was the Israeli dream come true–Palestinian leaders stab their own people in the back. And if this proposal had been made, there would have been overwhelming pressure from the US (and maybe Europe and maybe Saudi puppets) to accept it. If the Palestinian people rejected it they would have become the villains.

      It’s fascinating to see the PA vociferously denying that these documents are authentic. It shows what they think their people think of what they offered. I guess they were counting on outside help (including lots of US money for security forces to suppress dissent) to make the deal go through. But the Israelis tossed it all aside.

      • seafoid says:

        The PA is recognising the papers as genuine today.

      • I think “cooperative” is the descriptive term.

        The sequence, if the current Israeli administration intended peace, would have been:

        1. The representatives defined a proposal
        2. The proposal is submitted to the communities for ratification.

        The proposal designed would have to be consented by each representative party, AND by each ratifying.

        The attempt to malign the PA trivially, is also an attempt to prohibit the Palestinian (and Israeli) people from getting the opportunity to ratify a proposal.

        When Erakat describes the documents as “lying”, it is because quotes were taken out of context, not that quotes weren’t quotes.

        They were smiling because they felt that they were negotiating with individuals that regarded their concerns as important, that they were approaching a serious and sincere actual peace, not just a cease-fire.

        Solidarity that expresses, “Stay at war” is NOT expressing a progressive slogan or sentiment.

        • Donald says:

          “Solidarity that expresses, “Stay at war” is NOT expressing a progressive slogan or sentiment.”

          Who said anything about “staying at war”? Is the PA shooting at the Israelis? News to me. We’re not even talking about Gaza. We’re talking about the West Bank and East Jerusalem. I’m criticizing the PA for conceding too much and you think that’s equivalent to war? Well, of course you do. You stack the deck 95 percent in favor of Israel and you think you’re a peace proponent because the Israeli government stacks the deck 100 percent in that direction.

        • Solidarity is saying “stay at war”. The PA is being condemned for making the jump to “we desire to reconcile”.

          Your solidarity colleagues are not saying “adjust your position” (as if you know what the PA position is from the selected disclosures anyway). They are saying “Abbas is traitor”.

          Rather than doing what it takes to form an actual proposal to bring to the people, solidarity is saying “don’t”.

    • sherbrsi says:

      Negotiations, their sincerity and perceptions, are meaningless when the Israelis have no state to give (by means of relinquishing illegal hold on Palestinian territories) and the Palestinians no state to gain (by grovelling endlessly to Israeli demands).

      If the prospects of the two-state solution were held alive by the peace process, then you can resoundingly declare them dead now, after the publishing of these papers.

      Those who don’t learn anything from their revelation (either by confirmation or discovery of previously known information) will forever be in denial.

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “And the rational and opportunistic recalcitrance of Israel to negotiate remains.”

      Oh, please, explain what, exactly, “rational recalcitrance” means, when talking about a state that claims to have been begging for peace for 60 years while, but which, on the one hand rejects out of hand (out of spite? bigotry?) what amounts to Palestinian abdication, while, at the same time, this very same state kills innocent Palestinians (including children) by the bushel. Really. What does “rational recalcitrance” mean in that context?

  9. seafoid says:

    A key lesson from the papers is the total dependence of Israel on American patronage. Only America has kept the settlement project going for 44 years.

    ” Livni: The idea behind our desire to annex Ariel settlement was not to get more water but because thousands of people live there. We want to have an answer for those who have lived there for forty years. ”

    Never mind the veracity. Livni is the Jew who Rabbi Kook knew 40 years on would tell the Arabs that Jews had been living in that place for 40 years and could thus not be moved. The people of Ariel stay for as long as the US supports Israel.

    Israel is now in the space where political miscalculations lead to homelessness. Fluid borders work both ways.

  10. Potsherd2 says:

    The White House is still crafting the lies with which it will respond to these developments.

  11. David Samel says:

    Crooke makes an excellent point, that the creation of a Palestinian state would bring into focus the problem of minority rights within Israel itself. I would add this. Some proponents of the 2ss suggest that some Jewish settlers may remain where they are and become citizens of the Palestinian state. If that were to happen, surely the settlers, Israel and the rest of the world would all insist that Jewish citizens have full equality with Christians and Muslims in Palestine. That is clearly achievable – why not? But the contrast with Palestinian citizens of Israel would be stark and impossible to ignore, because non-Jews in a Jewish State can never obtain the same equality that would be demanded for Jews in Palestine. Palestine could truly guarantee equality, while its neighbor Israel would be subject to more scrutiny than ever before.

  12. I don’t think you guys realize how bad things can get for Palestinians if the peace talks are declared dead, and by Palestinians.

    There is no other viable approach. The tensions that exist in the middle east exist largely independantly of Israel/Palestine.

    • sherbrsi says:

      I don’t think you guys realize how bad things can get for Palestinians if the peace talks are declared dead, and by Palestinians.

      Give us a clue Witty, how are things going to get worse? More killings, settlements, starvation, Judaization of EJ? Anything else you want to add?

    • eljay says:

      >> I don’t think you guys realize how bad things can get for Palestinians if the peace talks are declared dead, and by Palestinians.

      Yeah, it’s a shame the Palestinians aren’t serious about peace. Oh, wait a minute, they are! It’s the Zio-supremacist state that’s been jerking them – and the rest of the world – around.

      No worries, though: If things get worse, there’s always ethnic cleansing to help set things right. Just “hold your nose” as you cheer on your co-collectivists – that way, the stench of immorality won’t perturb you.

      • Gambling on “hail Mary” insurrection rather than negotiation.

        If you are not American “hail Mary” refers to a play in American football, in which at the last minute they attempt a long long pass with the receiver surrounded by defenders. Its a low probability effort, a desparation effort.

        The legal and rational response to militancy, to terror if that is revived, is military. And, that is not good.

        Sobriety is a much more courageous stance than either complicity or militancy.

        Eljay,
        Its a tragedy that you don’t read my posts, as some of your points that you claim I oppose, I make as well.

        • eljay says:

          >> Eljay,
          >> Its a tragedy that you don’t read my posts, as some of your points that you claim I oppose, I make as well.

          Actually, I do make an effort to read your posts, but if the boredom instilled by paragraphs of pretentious, pseudo-intellectual bafflegab doesn’t get to me, the sheer hatefulness of your Zio-supremacism does.

          More to the point, it’s hard to take seriously anyone who:
          - claims he is a “humanist” who also actually approves of and makes justifications for ethnic cleansing (when “necessary”…as though such immorality can ever be considered necessary); and
          - reveres an oppressive, colonialist state (charmingly termed “a good in the world”) while, essentially, condemning its victims for not being more accommodating.

    • seafoid says:

      “how bad things can get for Palestinians if the peace talks are declared dead, and by Palestinians”

      Gaza to be starved to death ?
      All first born Palestinian children to have a limb amputated?
      And Israel to continue exporting to the EU?

      ” The tensions that exist in the middle east exist largely independantly of Israel/Palestine”

      Egypt is a dictatorship because of Israel. So is Jordan.

  13. Kathleen says:

    At Counterpunch
    We Told You So!
    The Palestine Papers and What They Reveal About the US/Israeli Agenda
    By KATHLEEN CHRISTISON

    Many people told them so — told them, meaning told the United States and Israel and even the overeager Palestinian leadership, that the Oslo agreement in1993 wasn’t fair, that it made too many demands of the Palestinians and virtually no enforceable demands of Israel; that the United States, no honest broker or neutral mediator, was looking out only for Israel’s interests and cared nothing for Palestinian concerns; that the peace process breakdown at Camp David in 2000 was not the fault of the Palestinians but was the responsibility of President Clinton and his “Israeli lawyer” advisers for representing only Israel’s needs; that while Clinton demanded Palestinian concessions, he was winking at Israel’s steady expansion of settlements and land grabs in Palestinian territory; that Clinton’s two successors did the same.

  14. yourstruly says:

    The question now is what will be the Palestinian people’s response to the documents that prove that the PA is a complete sellout on the longstanding demands in regards to Jerusalem, doing away with these settlements and the right of return? It’s likely that at least the Palestinian youth are debating whether or not to issue a call for a Third Intifada. Seems to me that the timing is perfect for such a call, what with a revolution now unfolding in Tunisia, the energy of which is being felt even in faraway Yemen. Add a Palestinian uprising to the Tunisian revolution and what do we have? The beginning of the transformation of the entire Arab/Islamic world, that’s what. As this happens, will the U.S. still cling to its special relationship with the settler-entity? And if so, would not such intransigence bring forth the long sought for and much needed Intifada, American style?

    • Citizen says:

      The US had a very mild intifada, initiated by Tea Party on the backs of the Ron Paul troops; it attracted a sizable following which put a few people into Congress; those people are now being taken over by standard Republicans who join standard Demcratics to assure the status quo continues; hence assure, inter alia, full support of Israel no matter what it does. The US masses had onc chance to really fix itself; it blew it with the relatively smooth passage of the bank bailouts. I guess you have to be Icelandic to have a real democracy.

      • seafoid says:

        The tea party was no intifada. Intifada means healthcare for all and a repeal of tax breaks for the rich.

      • Woody Tanaka says:

        The problem in the US is that its political system is intentionally designed to quelch popular opinion. Unless the Congressional/Presidential system is overthrown and replaced by a parliamentary system, in which smaller factions can have greater power, there will never be anything but rule by the rich and connected in the US.