As worshipers and tourists from all over the world come to Jerusalem this Easter, spare a few moments to think about those Christians who will not be allowed to make the short journey from Bethlehem.
This year’s Easter celebrations will highlight, as they do every year, the effect Israel’s occupation regime has on Palestinian religious freedoms. A Christian tourist from the United States, Russia or Japan will have a better chance of spending Easter in Jerusalem than a Palestinian Christian from Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus. While tourists retrace Jesus’ footsteps in the Old City, Palestinians will be waiting for Israel to grant them a permit simply to visit the city. If they’re lucky enough to receive one, they will have to hope that the soldier at the checkpoint will not find an excuse to deny them
entry.
A few years ago, the Roman Catholic Emeritus Patriarch of the Holy Land, Michael Sabbah, observed that Israel should not insist on defining itself as a Jewish state because “if there is a state of one religion, other religions will naturally be discriminated against.” For more than 60 years, Israel has implemented policies that systematically discriminate against the Christian and Muslim populations of this land, beginning with the expulsion of over 700,000 Christian and Muslim Palestinians from their homes in historic Palestine during Israel’s creation in 1948. Across the country, churches and mosques were razed to the ground along with hundreds of entire Palestinian towns and villages. Following Israel’s occupation of East Jerusalem in 1967, Israeli authorities destroyed part of the Muslim Quarter in the Old City in order to expand the Jewish Quarter.
East Jerusalem, the capital of any future Palestinian state, is a case
study in Israeli discriminatory policies. Organizations such as the
United Nations, the European Union, Amnesty International, Human
Rights Watch, the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, and
B’Tselem, have all confirmed that Jerusalem is being systematically
stripped of its Christian and Muslim identity and heritage.
Over the last two years alone, more than 5,000 Christian and Muslim
Jerusalemites have been deprived of the right to live in the city
where they and their ancestors were born. Since 1967, some 20,000
Palestinian Jerusalemites have had their residency rights revoked.
In addition to the revocation of residency rights, demolitions of
Palestinian homes, and expansion of Jewish-only settlements, Israel
regularly seizes Palestinian properties in East Jerusalem, evicting
Palestinian families and turning over their homes to extreme
right-wing Jewish settlers. Palestinians are also denied equal access
to social services and other benefits. The result of this
discrimination is clear to see; walk through East Jerusalem and you
feel like you are in a third-world country, while West Jerusalem
resembles a European suburb.
Sixty-three years ago Israel was created upon the ruins of Palestine.
Since then, Palestinians have been awaiting the day when we will be
able to exercise our rights and live in freedom. We were told that if
we recognized Israel’s right to exist we would be granted our freedom,
so we complied. Yet more than 20 years later Israel’s illegal
military occupation and colonizing enterprise are more entrenched than
ever in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Today we are told that it
is not enough to recognize Israel, but that we must recognize its
right to exist as a “Jewish state.” In other words, that we must
actively participate in undermining the rights of Palestinians
refugees, the rights of the Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the
rights of Muslims and Christians all around the world who have a
spiritual and religious connection to the Holy Land.
We have faith in the justness of our cause and we will continue to
struggle for our rights using all legal means. At the international
level, we are seeking recognition for the state of Palestine on the
pre-1967 War borders. In September we will ask the United Nations for
admission as a full member. We are fully within our rights pursuing
these measures. The argument that this path will undermine the peace
process has little credibility since it has been already been fatally
undermined by Israel’s unrelenting settlement construction in the West
Bank and East Jerusalem.
A Palestinian priest said at an Easter past, “we cannot celebrate
because our people have died many times and we are still waiting for
our own resurrection as a free nation.” In the months and years to
come, we will continue our struggle for the resurrection of our
nation, and for justice and peace in the Holy Land. We hope the world
will join us on that journey.
Dr. Ghassan Khatib is the Director of the Palestinian Government
Media Center and official spokesperson of the Palestinian National
Authority.
We all await that resurrection. The Palestinians were much beset over the centuries, but never displaced until European Jews decided to take away their country, a project still vigorously under way.
A people that lived until recently according to the rhythms of the seasons now lives according to the rhythms of war, displacement, terror, exile, and statelessness in a world never too tired to talk about their struggle but never sufficiently energized to enforce the humanitarian laws in which Palestinians necessarily repose their hopes.
Pray for truth, justice, and peace.
Sent to my local “bible belt” TV stations. They routinely run “Israel is great for Christians – Fear the Arabs” touristy IMFA Easter spots for US Christian consumption, without any regard for the situation of Christians living under Occupation. Shedding some light locally on this particular hypocrisy is becoming something of an Easter tradition for me.
I mean if Christians really cared about the persecution of other Christians, there might be some light bulbs popping on.
Thanks for pointing this out. Keep at it. It is potentially eye-opening in US flyover country.
link to youtube.com
Could you ask them how they feel about Israel’s own state-run channel mocking the crucifixion of Jesus?
I’d love to know the answer.
The programme is produced and broadcast by the privately-owned Bip channel, not state-run Educational TV. The Ed TV symbol, music and “feel” is part of the programme’s shtick – voice of the brainwashing, racist, consumerist, sexist (hence the girl in the bikini), warmongering establishment. Poor taste, blood, and provocations of all kinds are also part of the shtick.
Here’s an interview (Hebrew) with the programme’s creator – link to mouse.co.il
– who says he was inspired by Team America and Southpark.
Interesting. When I first watched this moronic and offensive production on Kate’s recent post, I immediately thought of the dreck that regularly airs on US television. Another example of ‘shared values’
Sounds to me like a mainstream Israeli fantasy: unlimited Toblerone in the Alps and and sex with Swiss women.
In addition to the crass populism, sexism, religious bigotry and general bad taste, there is also an element of shirking responsibility for being all that.
The Tel Aviv media types that create this junk do not see Jesus as the enemy of the Jews.
The episode’s creator is trying to mock Orthodox, mainstream Zionist prejudice against that, but, at the same time, preserves deniability by “keeping it light”.
It’s standard for the mainstream. It’s all a joke and what do you want from me anyway, I’m just part of the joke too.
I posted the video Avi links to at firedoglake yesterday. Its authenticity and/or relevance was questioned by commenters there. I can’t blame them. Meanwhile, I’m trying to find out more about the program in English. South Park inspiration makes sense, but how much less horrific does that make the video itself? I’ve seen clips of Israeli TV that are full of racist stereotypes, but this goes quite a bit further.
Philip,
I haven’t come across anything about the show (טופי והגורילה – “Toffee and the Gorilla”) in English, but the “concept” is pretty clear from the Hebrew interview I linked to above, and the sketches available online (on youtube and elsewhere – you can cut and paste the Hebrew טופי והגורילה in the search bar).
It’s a parody of some of the shows on Israeli state Educational TV, especially in the ’60s and ’70s (some of the sketches are even in black and white, for added effect). The messages are unashamedly racist (against Arabs, Mizrahim, Christians, etc.), chauvinist and violent, holding up a mirror to Israeli society as it were (albeit from a safe distance – placing such attitudes somewhere in the past). The show’s creator describes its political orientation as “socialist-pacifist”.
The crucifixion sketch is so over the top that it could only be satire, although its utter crudeness is more indicative of a lack of self-awareness than of a desire to provoke in order to bring home an ugly truth.
link to youtube.com
Fascinating. Thanks.
Still trying to get more full info elsewhere too, but yours is the best yet. I’m going to update my fdl post to include this. Hope you don’t mind.
Hope you don’t mind.
No problem.
Is Toblerone not Kosher? I thought you could eat dairy products as long as it wasn’t with meat.
There is multiple levels of kashrut.
Technically, product has to be stamped by a known and respected institution or Rabbi which means it was checked during it’s production stage and fits certain known standards.
link to jerusalemkoshernews.com
This stamp certifies that entire production stage was supervised by Jerusalem Court Of Justice, (despite it’s name the court only deals with HALAHA – Judaism Laws) Haredi (one of Judaism branches) department.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The “levels of kashrut” can get so ridiculous that the rabbis can’t agree how long Jews are supposed to wait between meals that include meat, and meals that include dairy.
Queue
Is Toblerone not Kosher? I thought you could eat dairy products as long as it wasn’t with meat.
The spoof has nothing to do with the kashrut of Toblerone. It’s about foreign decadence. I have an Israel relative who goes to the international airport just to buy Toblerone. It is the delectable portal to Chutz La’aretz, that place that is not Israel, aka the rest of the world.
I’m not sure who that video is really mocking, “Jews” played (or represented) by Toffee, or Jesus, played by the gorilla, I mean, it does sort of reinforce the idea that “the Jews” murdered Jesus
I love helping to put up christmas trees in Israel and the West Bank when I’m there. Efforts by Jewish Israeli officials to block it get more bizarre every year. They mostly don’t want to say no straight out, probably because they know it won’t go down well in the media with those who think that “the only democracy in the middle east” accommodates minority religions. So they try to put us off by placing conditions on the size of the trees, the number of branches, the number of decarations, number of lights, exact placements of decorations and lights, to-the-centimeter placement of the trees, etc. etc. etc. I mean, how exactly is one supposed to move a huge old tree that’s been standing there for decades ten centimeters to the left just for two weeks?
So I was delighted to see the Israeli media coverage of Nazareth Illit’s mayor’s tamtrum last year when he refused to allow christmas trees in Nazareth Illit, calling christmas trees “provocative” and telling us to “do that sort of thing” in Nazareth, not Nazareth Illit. All that is likely to get worse, though, if Arnon Sofer is right that Israel will be a traditional religious state by 2030 and the ultra orthodox will pass a million roundabout that same time. so there’s a lot of work left, not just in dealing with the occupation, but also the rights of palestinians inside Israel.
Christmas Trees is pagan tradition and has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.
Lightbringer April 23, 2011 at 3:41 pm
Christmas Trees is pagan tradition and has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.
Of course it is and nobody worships a tree, it’s simply a happy event. I’m Muslim and I wouldn’t let a Christmas go by without putting up my tree. If you think about it, most of the rituals of Jews, Christians and Muslims are rooted in pagan traditions, especially the spooky garb the clerics wear. But if these make people happy, what do you care?
And this Catholic says…you are a very cool guy, Walid.
شقيق السلام
Worship of Jahweh is a pagan tradition too. Probably baptism, circumcision and most monotheistic rites come from pagan traditions. Although, maybe I shouldn’t include passover as being from a pagan tradition since the story of Moses is probably fictional.
Before he was removed from his seat in Congress, Henry Hyde took a moment to deplore the treatment of Palestinian Christians in the “Holy Land.” This did not translate, however, into lessening his support for the Israeli occupation of Palestinian Christians’ land.
Grew up Catholic but left the church at 18. Still left with some of the core beliefs pulsing through my veins “All born in the image and likeness of God”
One has to think if a guy named Jesus ever really walked the earth and he was as compassionate, loving, forgiving as he was alleged to be. He would be throwing a damn pissy fit in regard to what is going on in his neck of the woods today. The hatred, the treatment of the Palestinians, the death and destruction.
Oh yeah Zogby hits another one out of the park over at Huff Po
link to huffingtonpost.com
“There have been on again, off again negotiations for 20 years, all to no avail. With the Palestinians holding no cards and having no leverage, they come to the table more as supplicants, than negotiators. And the Israelis who, for their part, hold all the cards, and declare, in advance, which cards are “off the table”; they do more dictating than negotiating. ”
And with Dennis “Israel’s lawyer” Ross in there not negotiating not much is going to change
Zogby “How, one might ask, can the Israelis and their supporters in the U.S. denounce this Palestinian diplomatic push for recognition as an “unhelpful unilateral act”, while ignoring Israel’s settlement and annexation program in Jerusalem and the West Bank?”
Nails it again
“Oh yeah Zogby hits another one out of the park over at Huff Po”
Kathleen, first, I’d like to say that I like Zogby. But I also have to say that for years, he was and probably still is, on the Democratic Party’s payroll as a pollster, consultant and overall taker of the pulse of the 5 or 6 million Arab-Americans. That means that everything he writes has to be looked at in light of that political relationship even as in this current article that on the surface appears pro-Palestinian and almost anti-Obama if the US decides to block the UN Palestinian recognition. He sent quite a few bouquets Fayyad’s way when everyone is asking how far the guy’s collaboration with Israel has gotten. I could be mistaken and I hope I am, but I saw in his article a lot of “buttering up” and setting the scene of some gizmo Obama is about to pop to somehow delay the Palestinian’s call at the UN this September. Keep in mind that the UN human rights agency was about to vote on the Goldstone Report when Abbas stepped in at the last minute and asked to have the vote taken off the agenda. Expect a similar delaying move in September but this time the US is laying the groundwork to make it appear legitimate and I think that Zogby’s article is part of that groundwork.
I wonder if you are confused about Zogby. You know that there are two Zogby’s, one is a Democratic pollster, the other is head of the Arab American Institute, right?
Same thing, Clenchner, 2 companies, 2 brothers but one objective from a CS Monitor article in 2002, “Monitor Breakfast: John and James Zogby”:
“.. John Zobgy is president and CEO of the polling firm Zogby International. James Zogby is founder and president of the Arab American Institute, the policy and political research arm of the Arab American Community. They discussed their new 10-country poll that tracks how adults in Arab and Muslim/non-Arab countries feel about American people and culture.”
i received the following email a week ago. i have changed the names and some of the place names:
Dear cousins: Once again a normal and lovely Spring day turns into another nightmare for one more Palestinian family. Suzy and Sammer, although born in Palestine, have lived most of their lives in the USA and hold an American citizenship. They are currently living in the Palestinian Territories, and they both are university professors. Last Sunday they were looking forward to the visit of their daughter who was doing her graduate work in Paris, and was planning to visit her parents during the Easter holidays. But as usual under a military occupation, the unpredictable never fails to turn up, and she was denied entry and returned to Paris. Hanna an only child, and a young soft spoken beautiful young woman, was not only denied entry, but treated aggressively by the security officers at the airport and denied access to a telephone conversation with her parents.
Why I continue to wonder? What is behind the justification for denying Palestinian Americans from visiting. I am sure if an American Israeli would be denied entry to the USA, hell would break loose and all the world media will hear about it. Unfortunately Hannan is one of hundreds who have been exposed to this measure, and the American Consulate in Jerusalem is unable to do anything about it. That is not surprising when the President of the USA himself so often had to cave in to Israel. Of course Israel can always use the security as justification. But unfortunately nobody has able to challenge that aspect and demand proof. The only proof seems to be the Palestinian origin.
Lydda – Sorry to hear that. Your story brings home the human cost of our double standards. Full U.S. citizenship does not extend to Israel/Palestine unless you are an Israeli Jew too.
link to salon.com
Jumping over to Israeli-Palestine, the Palestinian Authority is now talking about going to the U.N. in September, either through the Security Council or the General Assembly, and seeking recognition as an independent state. News reports suggest that the Obama administration has tried to dissuade them, but it seems like they’re going forward. How do you think the administration would handle that move if the Palestinians do try to do this?
Well if the Palestinians go to the United Nations General Assembly in September to seek some kind of recognition, the United States is in no position to stop it. We don’t have a veto in the General Assembly. The real question is, will it make any difference? And the answer is no. The administration has long held that this move would be not productive and probably counterproductive for the Palestinian cause. That has been our advice to the Palestinians publicly and privately, and I don’t see that changing. There’s still time to try to get a direct negotiation restarted, but there’s little evidence that there’s the kind of productive dynamic between President Abbas and Prime Minister Netanyahu that would give a lot of hope. There are speeches coming up — the prime minister is coming to the United States to talk to Congress. Secretary Clinton has indicated the president may give an address on the situation sometime soon, but the real problem is not a [lack of] desire by the United States to push this forward, the problem really is the lack of any rapport between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority that would give you any hope of progress.
Even if President Obama gives a speech, are you expecting to see any sort of major initiative from the administration on this, or do you think they’re in a holding pattern?
My personal view is that Prime Minister Netanyahu, recognizing that a Palestinian move at the U.N. in September would put Israel in a difficult political situation, has to be the first to try to change perceptions of where things are now. He may try to do that in his upcoming address in the United States. A lot of people are pointing to his speech here, but if he’s actually going to put on the table a dramatic move, he would do that before his own people, not before the American people. I personally don’t see any immediate prospect for a breakthrough.
A happy Easter to all Christians, especially the oppressed Christians of Palestine; el-Massih Kam.
Dr. Khatib is well placed to provide accurate statistics; I wish he’d provide the number of Christians that were still in Jerusalem and the occupied Gaza and West Bank in 1967 and today’s Christian population to show the effects of the Zionist ethnic cleansing of the Christians. The Christians of Bethlehem had another problem at Christmas with Israel’s travel restrictions on Christian Palestinians wanting to visit Christ’s birthplace and the forbidding of Christian trees in the region. Zionist disinformation would have people believe that the diminishing number of Christians is due solely to Muslim harassment.
I’m sure Dr. Khatib will be able to provide statistical information proving anything.
I’d just like you to answer 2 (two) simple questions:
1 – How many Christians have Jews/Israelis killed during last 10 years.
2 – How many Christians have Muslims killed during last 10 years.
Can we adjust per capita?
“I’d just like you to answer 2 (two) simple questions:
1 – How many Christians have Jews/Israelis killed during last 10 years.
2 – How many Christians have Muslims killed during last 10 years.”
If I had the numbers, I’d gladly give them to you but I don’t, Lightbringer; would you kindly share them if you have them? My question to Dr. Khatib was about the diminishing number of Christians from the harassment by the Zionists that is making them leave. Travel restrictions don’t necessarily kill but they encourage the Christian’s emigration, which is what my question was about. I already have details of church burnings and of destruction of the Christian libraries of Jerusalem, of swastikas drawn on tombstones, of the stoning of the Mormon choir that wanted to perform the Messiah and the list is very long of Israeli crimes.
I do not have numbers so what I can do best is run who search queries on Google.
link to google.com
link to google.com
Search results speak for themselves.
As of burning libraries, drawing swastikas and stoning choirs – can I have some names and dates?
P.S. If someone thinks that Google is not objective because it is invented by a Jew, try to search on Yahoo.
link to search.yahoo.com
link to search.yahoo.com
Gee, that’s academic. “Some random guy I found on Google told me so it’s true!” If there was ever a second very good reason to support academic boycott of Israeli institutions, there it is.
Everybody is random guy on Google.
Lightbringer, those links you provided about mass killings of Christians by groupies of a few Muslims was a lame attempt on your part because these have nothing to do with Muslims killing Christians in Palestine.
There is no doubt the Christians were persecuted by Muslims in Palestine but this was done by fanatical Muslims that took their lead from Israeli Jews. Israel has been hindering the upkeep of historic churches for decades by refusing them permits to do their repairs (do you want details on those?). Guides for religious tourists and pilgrims have to be Israeli in spite of a 1981 agreement to the contrary and the Ministry of Religious Affairs (now Services) held campaigns and seminars to coach Jews on converting Christians to Judaism. The High Rabbinate in 1985 wrote in its “Hamodia” journal, “rivers of Jewish blood have been spilled by Christians incited by of their clerics that considered it a ritual duty to persecute the Jews and to humiliate them into dust. It is impossible to forgive them” This tells you that Christians are hated even more than the Muslims.
In the 80s, 5,000 Israelis demonstrated against the building of a university on Mt Scopus by Mormons until they agreed to have orthodox Jews sit on the university commission to monitor its activities. Yeshiva students stoned attendees at the recital of Haendel’s Messiah by the Utah Oratorio Society that they suspected of proselytizing and the same happened to Christians gathered at Hotel Nitzan at Tiberias where the hotel was set on fire. At Nahariya, the town rabbi threatened to withdraw the kosher license of 2 hotels if they didn’t stop taking in Christians. 3 Christian libraries in Jerusalem were looted by Kach people and the Baptist Church on Narkis Street was set on fire. Another fire was set at the Russian convent of Ain Kerem and swatiskas drawn on the walls of the Our Lady of Zion convent. An iron chain was used to barricade the entrance of the Church of Dormition to prevent the Midnight Mass. The Mt Zion cemetery keeper and 2 Russian nuns were killed by religious fanatics.
That was a short list of physical activities by Israelis. There s an ultra long list of other things done in education, social services and stuff like that.
interesting questions, LB. i would add:
3 – how many muslims have jews killed in the last 10 years;
4 – how many muslims have christians killed in the last 10 years.
a comment not addressed to LB, but to others:
my 10-year old daughter has recently announced that she is ‘an atheist’ and will no longer attend easter or christmas mass (the only times we regularly attend) until i can provide her with scientific proof of god’s existence. but she just spent the weekend coloring eggs. strange what happens to beliefs and traditions.
on Easter and every other religious holiday which gets a lot of focus I remember that it is we clear-minded and unclouded atheists who get a holiday celebrating our faith everyday – we are free from the silly superstitions that afflict so many of our fellow humans and lead to so much conflict and suffering … and that we see through the haze of dogma and propaganda so easily to the rabid zealots beneath who want power … and when it comes to israel and Jerusalem we see oh so clearly what monsters lie at the heart of zionism
I love it when Christians preach to us about tolerance of other religions. Yup, their history is just overflowing with tolerance.
Yeah, why judge each human by his or her own merits when w can just lump him or her together with a “group” and act accordingly. Spoken like a true Israeli. [spit]
That’s funny, that’s exactly what you do with Israelis.
Funny how scorching babies into corpses beyond recognition with white phosphorous tends to tarnish a nationality.
why don’t you take your hasbara somewhere else? there is NO history of Palestinian Christians oppressing other religions.
We have to love those who totally irritate us, you know, Lydda. Though maybe we could find a way to ignore them with a hint of love.
Greetings from a Western to an Eastern Christian. I must say that the silence of the Western churches is screamingly shameful.
i was loving him to the door :)
and yes the silence of Western churches is pulling my hair out shameful. when i studied in seminary in the USA i was discouraged from doing my research on Dispensationalism/ Christian Zionism. i was nice, obedient young student then. i’m older now and know better than to be silenced so easily.
Lebanese Christians who have massacred Palestine Muslims in Sabra and Shatila count?
Do you mean after the brutal Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon? Let’s check up on the report from the Kahan Commission, how does that sound.
Do you need me to help you find it? Or are you going to just smash buttons on “the Google” until something comes up?
Are you serious? You mean the Phalangist tools of the Israelis who massacred those Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila under the command of Sharon. Do you really want to bring this up?
Yeah, I mean Christian Arabs massacred Muslim Arabs.
Bring it up if you please.
i specifically said Palestinian Christians.
you’re just trying to incite people. so much for being a “Lightbringer”.
My apologies.
Those committed the massacre in Sabra & Shatila were not Arabs but rather Assyrians.
As of Palestinian Christians – they’ve been oppressed throughout history and, apparently, have never caused any harm to anybody.
P.S. Interesting, why Custodians of the Holy Sepulcher are Muslims?
“P.S. Interesting, why Custodians of the Holy Sepulcher are Muslims?” (LB)
LB, Your statements grow more stupid by the day; why don’t you look up why this ritual was started over 800 years ago and why the same Palestinian family (the Jaoudehs)from generation to generation since 400 years has been the symbolic custodian of the whole waqf that includes the key to the church that is used only at Easter? Yes, the Palestinians that Zonists call the non-people have been around for many many hundreds of years.
*yawn*
You still haven’t answered my question.
P.S. One family hardly represents any ethnicity or nation.
I love it when Zionist spew their Christian hate. But it does’t seem to deter you from extending your greedy claws begging for money from us.
Palestine News Network has video news report about celebrating Easter in Bethlehem, for those who are interested. Once you go to the link, which is a print story, look to the left under “Video” for the accompanying video report.
Phil, I’m glad you have Dr. Khatib here. He’s a great, smart guy, and overall a good antidote to some of the crazies. His ‘journey’ has been interesting, as a man of the left, academic, ngo’nik and PA apparatchik.
That’s all you have to say in light of the fact that Palestinian Christians currently suffer and will continue to suffer in a state that defines itself as Jewish?
And you say so despite this
Then you go on to put forth the same false argument that many advocates of ‘Jewish, but Equal’ support.
It is more “realistic” from your perspective simply because you are content with the power imbalance, one where Israel dictates to the Palestinians what they should or should not accept.
No. Your interests have always been Is it good for the Jews?
Despite being aware of the fact that your positions are both morally and legally incompatible with the 21st century, you hide behind the psudo-vertuous position that is an alleged concern to curb “violence”. That is no different than the Orwellian language the United States uses to invade other countries when it claims to, “advance democracy”.
Even subconsciously you can’t help but Judaize — East European style — another Palestinian’s resume.
thanks for hitting on something I think really needs to be addressed and that ius neither the one state nor the state solutions as envisanged by jews, Israel, and ISrael supporters are realistic because they quite simply do nothing to address the root causes of the conflict.
ngo’nik and PA apparatchik
yes, signs of disgust and
maximum demand
mirrors
You can’t help yourself…. always the accusation that someone else things, wants, knows things that you yourself put there.
“Your interests have always been Is it good for the Jews?”
This is an accusation that I am a Jewish supremacist, who things that the Jewish interest can and should take priority over others. Of course, that’s entirely false; I support my version of self-interest, which does not accept that it deserves greater rights than the Palestinians or anyone else.
“you are content with the power imbalance’
Bullshit. I am not content with the power imbalance, and my career as an activist has always been to apply pressure against the occupation and for Palestinian statehood.
“ngo’nik and apparatchik”. As an Israeli Jew, if I use ‘nik’ or words like chutzpah, I’m entirely within my linguistic rights. For your logic, when a Palestinian uses the word ‘machsom’ are they committing some linguistic pro-occupation crime as well? ‘Apparatchik’ comes from the Russian term for a member of the governing elite. It’s not ‘Jewish’ at all. In your eagerness to prove a false point (I’m judaizing Dr. Khatib?) even the most benign utterances are grist for the mill.
Finally, there’s the darkest of urges to take an admiring content about the selection of this piece to pick at what isn’t said. This is the method of the prosecutor, to use what isn’t even there to draw damning conclusions. I didn’t express support for Christians, so perhaps I’m against Christians! It’s a paranoid, inquisitorial mindset. And look, in this very reply I’m not denouncing the wall, the assassinations in Gaza or the mistreatment of Arab American’s in Ben Gurion. Perhaps I am secretly in favor of all that as well?
You’ve reached a kind of fever pitch: poking at my accent, claiming know precisely the outlines of my ignorance and life history, assessing my motives like an archeologist sifting through the clues left in pottery shards. That’s you, kneeling in the dirt, struggling to come up with meanspirited and damaging things to say about people you don’t know and don’t care about. What a squalid vision of what it means to engage in debate over matters of genuine import.
“You’ve reached a kind of fever…/…. squalid vision of what it means to engage in debate over matters of genuine import.”
Wow, talk about a sore loser. But we have intention of debating whether imports are genuine or not. Drive whatever you want.
“Phil, I’m glad you have Dr. Khatib here. He’s a great, smart guy, and overall a good antidote to some of the crazies. ”
I’m glad too but a bit disappointed that his article started about the Christians with its eye-catching title but it soon quit the Christian issues and developed into a general complaint about the oppression of all Palestinians. Most of the Christians’ current hardships are of course caused by the occupation as Dr. Khatib noted but to say that the Muslims are totally innocent would be inaccurate. Elliott below mentioned the Kairos Palestinian statement that didn’t fizz on the western churches and the cold reaction to it must have surely had had an Israeli hand in it like in everything the Palestinians do, even outside the territories and Israel.
Palestinian can’t budge an inch without Israel getting in their way. Last October, at the Vatican bishops’ synod to discuss the Middle East’s dwindling Christian populations, US Bishop Bustros of Newton Mass. (Lebanese roots, of course) told journalists that the occupation must end and that the Zionist claim of the land having been given to them by the Bible was no longer relevant, he said, “For us Christians, you can no longer speak of a land promised to the Jewish people. The coming of Christ showed that Jews are no longer the preferred people, the chosen people; all men and women of all countries have become the chosen people.”
This provoked an immediate reaction by Dany Ayalon that the 180 bishops (8 from Israel)were turning the synod into an anti-Israel bashing and he asked for a retraction to avoid the spoiling of relations between Israel and the Vatican, which naturally was practically a veiled threat by Israel. The bishops backed off a bit with a statement that said that Bustros was speaking only for himself but stuck to its earlier position that said Jews couldn’t use the Bible to justify injustices.
About Muslim involvement, Robert Fisk in summarizing the Rome synod of last October in The Independent wrote:
“…One anonymous prelate at the Rome synod, quoted in one of the synod’s working papers, took a more pragmatic view. “Let’s stop saying there is no problem with Muslims; this isn’t true,” he said. “The problem doesn’t only come from fundamentalists, but from constitutions. In all the countries of the region except Lebanon, Christians are second-class citizens.” If religious freedom is guaranteed in these countries, “it is limited by specific laws and practices”. In Egypt, this has certainly been the case since President Sadat referred to himself as “the Muslim president of a Muslim country”.
… Nor can the church ignore Saudi Arabia, where Christianity is banned as a religion just as much as the building of churches. Christians cannot visit the Islamic holy cities of Mecca or Medina – the doors of the Vatican and Canterbury Cathedral are at least open to Muslims – and 12 Filipinos and a priest were arrested in Saudi Arabia only this month for “proselytism” for holding a secret mass. There is, perhaps, a certain irony in the fact that the only balance to Christian emigration has been the arrival in the Middle East of perhaps a quarter of a million Christian Filipino guest workers – especially in the Gulf region – while Patriarch Twal reckons that around 40,000 of them now work and live in Israel and “Palestine”. “
walid thank you for this rich comment
Why don’t ‘Western Christians’ care about Christians in Palestine?
To the Christian Zionists at least, and they’re the great supporters of Israel, Palestinian Christians aren’t really Christians. Orthodox Christians and Catholics don’t count. Only a certain kind of evangelical Protestant is a ‘Christian’.
Why don’t ‘Western Christians’ care about Christians in Palestine?
To the Christian Zionists at least, and they’re the great supporters of Israel, Palestinian Christians aren’t really Christians. Orthodox Christians and Catholics don’t count. Only a certain kind of evangelical Protestant is a ‘Christian’.
The Western churches response to the Palestinian Kairos document is a case in point.
link to oikoumene.org
Like Judaism, Western Christianity too has a litmus test for the faithful: Zionism. Palestinian Christians are not really Christian because they are not pro-Israel.
Zionism is an extension of Christianity. Jewish Zionism is an extension of Christian Zionism. Palestinians are the outsiders in this cozy love fest.
“Orthodox Christians and Catholics don’t count. Only a certain kind of evangelical Protestant is a ‘Christian’.”
a lot of evangelical Protestant churches do ecclesiology, that’s a big word for church, in a historical vacuum. ever since some sweet, old Dutch lady in West Michigan, the Northern buckle of the Bible Belt, asked me when I converted from Islam I have taken it upon myself to exclaim that we semitic Palestinian Christians “we’re from where Jesus’ ministry began, you know Bethlehem? Jerusalem? Nazareth?”
i know for some it is tempting to credit Chuck Smith/ Calvary Chapel, Harvest Crusade and all the other popular Christian, mass marketed, easy to digest grand profiteers with starting it all, but it was Jesus, born of a semitic woman in Palestine.
so given the historical and geographical angle of Christianity’s beginnings it’s really not that bizarre to meet Christians from Palestine.
and a lot of the Christian Zionist crowd are supremacists to some degree:
“A Supremacist believes his religion, particularly his version and interpretation, is supreme over all others. Being a believer puts one in a special position, allowing him to impose his will on others, even to kill innocents in order to further his supreme cause. The Supremacist thinks that any wrongs suffered by his group or any flaws of the inferiors entitle the Supremacists to attack and destroy members of the other groups, howsoever innocent individuals may be.
Supremacists of all religions have this common belief system, and the particular religion they espouse is really only incidental. Their core belief is that they are the true religion, that they are supreme over others, and are entitled to impose their will on all others, and that the slightest wrongs committed by others are sufficient for the Supremacists to destroy the inferiors.”
Jesus was born to a Jewish woman and Jewish man in Roman province of Judæa
p.s. Toponym “Palestina” appears on Roman maps about 150 years after Crucifixion.
p.p.s. modern day Arab Christians could not possibly be descendants of first Christians.
and your proof is what?
Lydda Four Eight
A bit more proof:
Toponym “Palestina” appears on Roman maps about 150 years after Crucifixion.
p.p.s. modern day Arab Christians could not possibly be descendants of first Christians.
Just a little bit of history:
According to Cassius Dio, 580,000 Jews were killed, and 50 fortified towns and 985 villages razed.[12][13] Cassius Dio claimed that “Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore, Hadrian, in writing to the Senate, did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors: ‘If you and your children are in health, it is well; I and the army are in health.’”[4]
Hadrian attempted to root out Judaism, which he saw as the cause of continuous rebellions. He prohibited the Torah law and the Hebrew calendar, and executed Judaic scholars. The sacred scroll was ceremonially burned on the Temple Mount. At the former Temple sanctuary, he installed two statues, one of Jupiter, another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea or Ancient Israel, he wiped the name off the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina (after the Philistines, the ancient enemies of the Jews[citation needed]), supplanting earlier terms, such as “Judaea” and Israel. Similarly, he re-established Jerusalem but now as the Roman pagan polis of Aelia Capitolina, and Jews were forbidden from entering it, except on the day of Tisha B’Av.[14]
link to en.wikipedia.org
By the middle of second century CE Judea – now Syria Palestina – were quite Jew-free.
During the late 1st century, Judaism was a legal religion with the protection of Roman law, worked out in compromise with the Roman state over two centuries.
Observant Jews had special rights, including the privilege of abstaining from civic pagan rites.
Christians were initially identified with the Jewish religion by the Romans, but as they became more distinct, Christianity became a problem for Roman rulers.
Circa 98 the emperor Nerva decreed that Christians did not have to pay the annual tax upon the Jews, effectively recognizing them as distinct from Rabbinic Judaism.
This opened the way to Christians being persecuted for disobedience to the emperor, as they continued to refuse to worship the state pantheon. It is notable that from c. 98 onwards a distinction between Christians and Jews in Roman literature becomes apparent.
For example, Pliny the Younger postulates that Christians are not Jews since they do not pay the tax, in his letters to Trajan.[105][106][107]
link to en.wikipedia.org
More proof?
Remind us again how Zionists aren’t right there at the core of pushing America (and to a lesser extent Europe) into a “clash of civilizations” between Muslims and Christians by adding a layer of pseudo-historical bullshit to their propaganda.
And where did Muslims come from? Mars?
“Jesus was born to a Jewish woman and Jewish man in Roman province of Judæa”
So we’ve sunk to straight-out blasphemy? He’s not the Son-O-God?
Could not Son of Blessed One be Son of Man at the same time?
Last October, at the Vatican bishops’ synod to discuss the Middle East’s dwindling Christian populations, US Bishop Bustros of Newton Mass. (Lebanese roots, of course) told journalists that the occupation must end and that the Zionist claim of the land having been given to them by the Bible was no longer relevant, he said, “For us Christians, you can no longer speak of a land promised to the Jewish people. The coming of Christ showed that Jews are no longer the preferred people, the chosen people; all men and women of all countries have become the chosen people.”
Walid:
Last October, at the Vatican bishops’ synod to discuss the Middle East’s dwindling Christian populations, US Bishop Bustros of Newton Mass. (Lebanese roots, of course) told journalists that the occupation must end and that the Zionist claim of the land having been given to them by the Bible was no longer relevant, he said, “For us Christians, you can no longer speak of a land promised to the Jewish people. The coming of Christ showed that Jews are no longer the preferred people, the chosen people; all men and women of all countries have become the chosen people.”
This provoked an immediate reaction by Dany Ayalon that the 180 bishops (8 from Israel)were turning the synod into an anti-Israel bashing and he asked for a retraction to avoid the spoiling of relations between Israel and the Vatican, which naturally was practically a veiled threat by Israel. The bishops backed off a bit with a statement that said that Bustros was speaking only for himself but stuck to its earlier position that said Jews couldn’t use the Bible to justify injustices.
This is the blueprint for handling uppity Palestinian Christians. I have seen the American Jewish rabbinate operate in the same manner. Rabbis faulting bishops for anti-Semitism because the bishops assert that Christians have supplanted Jews as God’s chosen ones.
As a Jew I don’t care for the Christian rivalry with Jews but I also know that we Jews have a reciprocal rivalry with Christians. Every faith gets to have its own set of beliefs. It’s no business of mine if their beliefs make them right and me wrong.
Just ask my Orthodox Jewish relatives what they think about me.
Proof of what is what?
Let’s go one by one.
“Jesus was born to a Jewish woman and Jewish man in Roman province of Judæa”
Because otherwise the whole story has no sense from Judaism point of view.
I hope you are not going to dismiss the fact that Jesus was sent to save Jews at first place,(Matthew 10:6; Matthew 15:24;Romans 15:8 all) 12 Apostles were Jews and first Notzrim (Christians in Hebrew) were mostly Jews.
Now lets see how exactly New Testament relates to Old Testament
Matthew 5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
— Law of the Prophets – is TANAH. One of books named so. Besides that all forefathers considered prophets from Judaism point of view.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
—Whatever is to be accomplished is written in TANAH
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
—Pharisees – Mefarshim – “Interpreters” in Hebrew. Interpreters of TANAH of course. They still exist until today. You know, these classical looking Jews in black coats and fur hats. That’s what they do until today: learn to interpret, live by mitzva. You know, 613 commandments of the Law. However because there is no temple today they – and every Jew, technically, has to fulfill only 300 commandments or so.
You see, Christianity is, so to say, an upgrade to Judaism.
Lighter, nicer, user-friendly.
Pharisees – Mefarshim – “Interpreters” in Hebrew.
No, Pharisees – perushim – “those who are separated” in Hebrew. Different root. The black-coat/fur-hat guys represent only one of the types of Judaism that evolved from Pharisaism. One might even argue that Christianity also evolved from Pharisaism (considering the similarity between many of Jesus’s teachings and those of the rabbis of the Talmud, and the Pharisaic background of Saul/Paul of Tarsus).
Thanks, good to know.
You see, Christianity is, so to say, an upgrade to Judaism.
Lighter, nicer, user-friendly.
As is contemporary Judaism.
It was the early rabbis, the contemporaries, teachers and fellow students of Jesus and his followers who brought Biblical Judaism to a new comfort zone.
For example they did away with the Bible’s
1. an eye for an eye
2. no burning fires or candles in the home on the Sabbath
and many other user-friendly innovations.
Check out the Talmud. It’s full of them.
“Different root.”
Shmuel, if you ever saw the American TV show “Get Smart!” you know what comes next. “Light bringer” replies and says “Different root, huh? Okay. Well, would you believe….?”
Oy, I had such a crush on Babara Feldman (Agent 99) she was so svelte and angular.
“and every Jew, technically, has to fulfill only 300 commandments or so.”
Feats, do your stuff!