My in-laws rented a place in the mountains and this morning I went out to breakfast with some and got in a fight with One of Them about a fact I probably never should have admitted, I am pulling for the Japanese against the American women this afternoon in the World Cup final.
One of Them (OOT) said Well I never mix politics and sports.
I do, I said, and we started in to argue, and I switched into that withering adversarial style my wife can't stand in me (she wasn't at breakfast). What about South Africa during apartheid, would you have rooted for them EVER? And what about the United States during the Vietnam period, when we were going around invading countries and causing incredible suffering, who could be for the United States? Well it's no different now, when we're in 3 or 4 countries we shouldn't be in and causing suffering. Who wants the U.S. to win under such circumstances?
OOT said OOT always supports "my country," OOT learned in law school to separate logic and feeling, it's not the athlete's fault if her country is invading other countries. Did you hear the American coach? Those girls have trained so so hard.
So have the other teams, I said.
The number of people making these dreadful decisions is so small, OOT said; how can you hold that against the people?
But we do all the time, and sometimes maybe we should.
A guy who is leaving construction was selling off all his tools outside the breakfast joint, and in a burst of diplomacy I went out to buy some tools, but the argument began afresh back at the house in the ferns. I found I was in the minority. Even the youth are for the US women, in spite of Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan (let's not talk about Libya). My wife was no help. "I guess I'm for the Americans because of what the Japanese did to us in World War II. Isn't sports about officially being allowed to go with your prejudices." I said I had to find a Japanese flag, and walked away.
I want American power to subside, I want America tamed. I want America taken down a peg. All I care about is the Middle East, and in the Middle East we are still the only game in town. We might be able to muscle the Palestinian Authority on the U.N. statehood resolution on that basis-- because we are the only game in town. I want that era to end, and I am afraid if the American women win it will give more oxygen to American hubris, it will sustain this awful chapter in the Middle East to the detriment of millions of Arabs and Muslims.
And Abby Wambach is cool.
good for you. i wouldn’t have ruined a breakfast over it, myself, as people seem more invested in sports than in politics these days. i love the idea of soccer, as a truly international sport, and got caught up in the hysteria while living in europe. (i was in spain in ’92, i think, when the danes beat the germans in the european cup. you’d think WWII just ended.)
as an american i always feel drawn to the underdog, that is the american myth i embraced, that the little guy always has a chance. but all this beaming claptrap turning reality on its head, about the indomitable spirit of the american team (the favorite to win to begin with) becomes a bit much. like a cup of high fructose corn syrup.
Yep……I am always drawn to the underdog too.
I don’t get any voyeuristic high if the US wins or upset if they lose.
Like horse races I find myself pulling for the one who comes from behind and runs his heart out.
I don’t get it. What fault lies with these girls? Its like blaming all the Jews for the faults of the Israeli government. Or blaming all Americans for the murder of over a million Iraqi non-combatants.
I can root for these kids, because they are the BEST we have to offer, not the worst. Its not Ann Coulter, Jane Harman, Sarah Palin, or Hillary Clinton kicking the ball around on the field.
These kids exhibit the qualities that we lament as missing in Washington DC. These kids are everything these dirtbags in DC are not. Team work, the welfare of the collective. Devotion, singleness of purpose. Hard work to achieve a SHARED goal….
You’re outta line on this one, Phil. I’d like to see you rehink it.
“What fault lies with these girls?”
You don’t think there’s something more than a little insidious about any girl who would, deliberately and knowingly, go out to collect bruises on her shin and calves?
Not to mention women who play croquet with mallets aforethought.
they’re not ‘girls’ or ‘kids’. and, boo hoo, the media and the ‘girls’ are rooting for a victory, which is much more profitable than second place. i love sports, my favorite form of entertainment, but all the hoopla gets nauseating.
So you went to the place in the mountains, and you didn’t have any of those cigarettes which make you nonchalant. Only yourself to blame, and you with all the resources of a great city at hand.
It don’t matter what profession someone is – every decent human being has a duty to oppose injustice and oppression taking place locally, regionally and internationally – and YES this includes athletes too.
Mohammad Ali is a good ‘sports without borders’ kinda example.
Problem is, there’s too much American corpo money about to be lost if the American team loses. That’s what the big fuss is about.
Real football, as opposed to the US version of armored rugby (just how often does foot connect with ball in your game?).
Hmm. Despite considerable prowess, I still think of the US as an underdog in this since it isn’t yet a major sport for you. Here in the UK it’s more important than politics or religion (I’m a footie atheist). I was more bothered by hearing that some of our hopeful Olympians have to compete in Israel sometime soon as part of their qualifiers.
It don’t matter what profession someone is – every decent human being has a duty to oppose injustice and oppression taking place locally, regionally and internationally – and YES this includes athletes too.
Mohammad Ali is a good ‘sports without borders’ kinda example.
Problem is, there’s too much American corpo money about to be lost if the American team loses, just ask Hilary. The msm is selling it as a ‘patriotic’ event so that Hilary’s friends can stay in the swank.
WTF only last week they were saying that the team is still weak with few followers and the investment in women’s soccer has dried out and the soccer team should just forgetaboutit and dissolve. Yeah right!?
To me the whole thing stinks of back-room deals by the axis of evil: Politicians, MSM and the Corpo-Executives.
Mmmmm, I didn’t even know about the pending game. The Japanese did give us Pearl Harbor, and they treated our captured guys barbarically–way worse than the Germans did back then, so I see your wife’s point–to a point. Is there another country more racist than Japan? OTH, big games are political–Jeez, look at the Nazi olympics back in the day. I think I will sit this one out.
What’s the matter with you? Do you have jingoist drivel quota to fulfill?
That’s by the way another reason to root for the Japanese: Not to be in the same camp as people who spout off this type of nationalist garbage on the occasion of international sports events.
I understand the Japanese coaches demanded a daytime game because they wanted to hide the fact that the Japanese team now glows in the dark.
Ugh. Yeah that was in poor taste.
Well, I try.
And I do appreciate the compliment.
And, uh, while we are on it, I see the Chicago Sun Times has an article up headlined…..
“With radiation concerns gone, Japan eager for tourists”
RADIATION CONCERNS GONE????? WTF?????
Amazing, isn’t it, that the corporate whores can match the dishonesty of the zionist ones?
I thought it was funny.
You’re right. Halfway intelligent people who were not in the direct vicinity of Fukushima Daiichi never had any “radiation concerns” to begin with, so it makes no sense to say they’re “gone”.
Mind you, if you head actually read article, it would have neatly explained to you how irrational you are. So I’ll pass on that one.
That easily qualifies as one of the most disingenuous comments I have yet seen on this site, Koshiro. Also, one of the most ignorant.
Truth is, AS YOU WELL KNOW, there is a groundswell of “radiation concerns” among the Japanese people, including many scientists and former workers in the nuclear industry.
The protests speak for themselves in discrediting your assertion, as does the increasing findings of radiation contamination outside the direct proximity of the Fukushima power plant .
Point of fact, I DID read the article, and found it to be little more than an advertisement, a marketing ploy designed to intice tourists into disregarding the VERY REAL nuclear disaster that is unfolding in Japan. This is GLOBAL disaster, with governments and industry whores working feverishly to downplay the extent of the disaster, and the grave consequences this will have on the health of MILLIONS of people. So which are category are you in; government, or industry whore?
link to salem-news.com
S.O.S. From Fukushima: Silence is Deadly in Japan
Tim King Salem-News.com
Newly released video is an International plea for help from Fukushima residents.
(FUKUSHIMA / SALEM) – The people of Fukushima prefecture in Japan, are in trouble. Abandoned by their own government; forced to return to their homes in this city of nuclear contamination, they are fearful for their children’s futures and asking the world community for support.
A man in the video who uses the name Nakate, explains that he represents a network to protect children from radiation.
“It’s been three months since the accident at Fukushima Everyday we discover new things. We know the government is not telling us the truth”.
That is a harsh charge toward the Japanese government, but apparently right on the money from what we can tell.
“We the citizens of Fukushima ask ourselves if this region is habitable, and if our children should continue to live here. We ask for an evacuation order for us and our children. Neither the Japanese government nor the local authorities call for an evacuation. We have to figure it out for ourselves. We need national and international support. Please send us your messages of support to Fukushima, Japan”.
The Russians evacuated the people of Chernobyl after the deadly nuclear disaster there. It didn’t happen fast enough, but once signs of the massive radiation leak reached Europe, the Soviets were forced to acknowledge the disaster and people left the region in droves. The Japanese govt. is now playing second fiddle on the same stage.
Many in the U.S. and Europe have been asking about Japan in recent weeks, wondering how a disaster of this magnitude could have simply disappeared from the news. Of course the myriad terrible stories dominating headlines in places like Israel and Mexico take our eye off the ball. The people in Fukushima however, have not missed a thing, except a peace of mind that once existed there.
It was a natural disaster that led to the destruction of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, but residents are being pushed back to this dangerous place by their government. While the corporate and political spin masters continue to try to reduce the severity of this disaster, the truth, according to one Japanese nuclear engineer, is far worse that what the average member of the public understands.
continues……
As I well know, Western media have been playing up the Fukushima disaster and its effects in a ridiculous fashion, incidentally reducing the tens of thousands killed by the actual tsunami to a mere footnote. The frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria of people who predict the whole country becoming inhabitable is so patently irrational that it really makes me wonder if mere ignorance and stupidity is all there is to it. It may well be that the doomsaying is an expression of wishful thinking.
I won’t bother trying to explain in this place how idiotic this panic-mongering is. I’ve done so elsewhere.
“As I well know, Western media have been playing up the Fukushima disaster and its effects in a ridiculous fashion….”
Gads, you can’t get through this issue without adding MORE BS???? The “western media” has actually downplayed this event, and the ongoing saga of the incompetence and duplicity of the government and TEPCO. Most of the major “western media” entities are pretty much IGNORING IT, as a matter of fact.
“The frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria of people who predict the whole country becoming inhabitable…..”
Well, I have followed this event quite closely since the day of the earthquake, and I have not seen ONE SINGLE person of note, OR media statement that predicts “the whole country becoming (un (sic)) inhabitable”.
So, uh, it appears, Koshiro, that it is YOU that is “frothing at the mouth” in your “hysterical” effort to downplay and misrepresent the gravity of the event at Fukushima Daiichi.
Koshiro, it’s great that Japan is where it is now, and it’s easily one of the most technologically and artistically progressive nations the Earth has ever known — now. But we can’t exactly ignore history. We can move past it, but it isn’t jingoistic to recall historical fact. Citizen said he isn’t rooting for either side.
Anyway, this is a stupid sports game. Why do people invest so much in sports games anyway? I’ll never get that.
First of all, have you perchance not read…
… which either was a very subtle form of self-irony or stereotyping of the most vile type.
Secondly, as eljay has already said: To use ‘What the Japanese did in WW2′ as any kind of yardstick for making judgments in 2011 is incredibly stupid – and of course it’s nationalistic and racist to boot.
I won’t even get started on US atrocities in the Pacific War. I’ll just note that no Japanese people I know hold these atrocities, which far exceed anything Japanese forces ever inflicted on the US, against the current-day United States.
Koshiro,
I don’t personally believe that the Japanese in contemporary Japan are more racist than others–there’s plenty of competition for the top spot if one wants to look closely at the countries around the world. I also agree that using what happened in WW2 as a yardstick for measuring in 2011 is incredibly stupid.
As to the atrocities in the Pacific War of WW2, I do know that war devolved into a very savage, racist war with no holds barred on both sides. Most of the history I have read and watched on, say the History Channel, or Military Channel, conveys the perception that the US was reactive, while Imperial Japan was the initiator of such outright savagery. However, I also know about US propaganda during the war, which was extremly rascist. And I know something about human nature, and as an ex-grunt, I know the limits of choice there. If you recommend a book or film about US atrocities in the Pacific War I will be glad to read it if it is available in English.
You may also like to know that I am aware of the argument that the US did not really need to nuke Japan in 1945, and that the cost-benefit analysis is arguable and remains controversial. (Same as, e.g., Dresden)
I watched the game today; the Japanese team and audience seem just as humanistic as the Americans. And my guess is they are.
Koshiro, are you in Japan? If you happen to have a Kawasaki ZX-10R, the 2011 model sitting around, could you wrap it up and send it my way? Thanks!
The US military did not believe that Japanese troops would willingly surrender and apparently did not believe them when they tried to do so.
Back in the mid 60s I knew a former US naval pilot who, in an emotional moment, described a situation when at the end of the war on one of the Pacific Islands that had been occupied by Japan, its troops came out on the beaches waving white cloths in their arms indicating they were ready to surrender. The US pilots, among them my friend, received the order to mow them down and so they did.
citizen, this is as good a book as any i have read on the subject:
WAR WITHOUT MERCY: RACE AND POWER IN THE PACIFIC WAR by John W. Dower.
Jeffrey B, I have seen lots of documentaries on cable tv indicating that the US troops had good reason to believe the Japanese troops would not surrender, and stories 4 of my uncles told me, and they all fought there, are further eye-witness evidence. OTOH, I don’t doubt there were instances such as the one you describe. At this juncture in my knowledge, it is a lop-sided chicken and egg thing.
Thanks, marc B, I will get the book. Meanwhile, since you read it, what do you think of the review of it here: link to ihr.org
PS: When I read of the Imperial Japanese depiction of Anglos & Americans as “dandruff, ” I could not help thinking of the current establishment Jewish anti-assimilation campaign. Tribal solidarity & all that, selfishly marry a goy, murder your own people, etc. Obviously this is not an “all-American” value, yet it continues here in the USA, protected by freedom of religion.
marc b: Here’s another short review of that book you read about propaganda & the Pacific War–I would be interested in your review of this review too: link to kevincmurphy.com
PS: Now I wonder, does Japanese culture always see things as double-faced, e.g., the concept of kamikaze somebody pointed out to me in this thread (sorry I don’t have time to give identify him now–I thanked him), and in this review, the concept of the Demonic Other of Japanese folklore.
PS: The author of that book and his academic pal seem to have stirred up controversy with their Visualizing Cultures course. Wonder if it covers the I-P conflict too?
Too, get this: “Dower examines a Japanese booklet, The Way of the Subject, which the Japanese handed out to their own soldiers (p. 31):
It was not that the Japanese people were, in actuality, homogeneous and harmonious, devoid of individuality and thoroughly subordinated to the group, but rather that the Japanese ruling groups were constantly exhorting them to become so. Indeed, the government deemed it necessary to draft and propagate a rigid orthodoxy of this sort precisely because the ruling classes were convinced that a great many Japanese did not cherish the more traditional virtues of loyalty and filial piety under the emperor, but instead remained attracted to more democratic values and ideals. At several points, The Way of the Subject said this directly. In other words, what the vast majority of Westerners believed the Japanese to be coincided with what the Japanese ruling elites hoped they would become.”
This looks like a subject for Mooser, yes?
Chicken and egg is right. One of the main reasons the Japanese soldiers fought on so fanatically in hopeless situations is that they had a good idea what kind of treatment they would face from U.S. troops. And that fanaticism of course exacerbated the viciousness with which U.S. troops treated them. Vicious cycle.
This is all described in Dower’s book.
citizen, i’ll try to pull out dower’s book and read the linked reviews. i have a long weekend coming up. i have been reading up social engineering, and one of the examples provided was the humiliating treatment japanese recruits received before they were released on the chinese prior to the start of WWII. lysias makes one of dower’s points below, that japanese fanaticism was in part fueled by marines taking ‘trophies’ and such. one of the other points, not made by dower, is that japanese fanaticism is treated as mindless, antlike devotion to the emperor, while in britain, for example, they sent up the creme of their youth to certain death in the battle of britain, but those sacrifices are seen in a more favorable light. the casualty rates for british pilots are oustanding.
how’s franzen’s ‘freedom’ going? i have it in a short stack from the library, along with teju cole’s ‘open city’ (very good) and shteyngart’s ‘super sad true love story’ (also very good. he was able to tone down a bit of the racism and self-love so grossly on display in ‘russian debutante’s …’
There’s more to it, namely the intense dehumanization of the Japanese, who were – to quote Niall Ferguson – considered to be Untermenschen by many, if not most U.S. soldiers. Terms used to describe the Japanese typically alluded to vermin. The ‘vicious cycle’ you describe is not sufficient to explain the mutilation of dead Japanese soldiers, nor the taking of body parts as souvenirs, nor the mass rapes of women in occupied Japan.
Such actions speak of intense, brutal racism, which is also quite evident from the sources, on all levels of the U.S. military. Of course, it was not universal, but it was definitely widespread.
Btw, in addition to Dower, I’d also recommend Schrijvers’ “The GI War against Japan”.
Sorry, I gave the last one away just yesterday.
Here’s a review of Schrijvers, The GI War against Japan. He apparently wrote a similar book on the GI war against Germany. He has not written a comparison of these two books: link to h-net.org
PS: Interesting to read what he says about the cultural role of the bulldozer in the Pacific War in light of its role in contemporary Israel.
HI marc b,
Huh. Why would the Imperial Japanes regime humilate its own soldiers just before they embarked on the conquest of China? Do you mean, they were revved up with stories about how the Chinese had humiliated the Japanse in the past? That would make sense as tactical means to end.
At this point, I am not sure if Japanese soldiers learned about American soldiers taking “trophies” before American soldiers learned about the Japanese, e.g., by walking down the path a few of their companions had been sent out to recon, and finding those pal heads on sticks along the path. I do realize you say “in part.” So we’re back to the viscious circle, the chicken-egg thing.
Re the battle of Britain, no doubt those British pilots thought they were the last stand against German air power, which was hurting England. And no doubt the Japanese soldiers and pilots were filled with the same defensive spirit–after a point different than that point in England epitomized by the aerial warfare over England. The Japanese soldiers that attacked China, and those who originally attacked the islands in the Pacific–were they filled with defensive spirit, or offensive spirit, supremist spirit?
I read about 200 pages of Frazen. I was looking for a serious American novel that came after Updike was overtaken by P Roth so to say. (Even a goyish Saul Bellow might do?) I’m not sure Frazen meets me there, but it wasn’t bad. There’s a lot of cultural nuance in his sentences; in fact most of them are chock full, and a fair amount of psychological wisdom too. Perhaps I’m just getting old, but I merely skimmed the latter half of the book. I mentioned that to one of my sisters, who really likes Frazen’s work. She said I should take a look at Cloud Atlas–I have yet to even google it. She also mentioned some other newer American novelist who, e.g., writes a sentence referring to someone wearing Frazen eye glass frames… Perhaps I’m ruined by reading the European and Russian classics way too many year ago. I am ignorant of the other two books, authors you mentioned. Give me a line or two on them. Thanks.
Its a simple fact. Even Jewish GI’s fared better under Germans than Allied prisoners under Japan.
Yes, I think the Battan death march was the first eye-opener for the Americans, yes? And yes, interestingly in light of the NAZI as THE icon of cruelty, no soldier, if they could have chosen, preferred capture by the Japanese or Stalin’s soldiers.
TOKYOBK- “Its a simple fact. Even Jewish GI’s fared better under Germans than Allied prisoners under Japan.”
Right you are! American Jewish POWs on the Western front were treated relatively well. To provide balance, however, you might want to reflect upon how the Nazis dealt with Jewish (and other) POWs on the Eastern front.
citizen, see this also. it is written by a neighbor of mine growing up and a close friend of my parents.
link to amazon.com
Thanks once again, marc b. It appears the book is hard to get & here is the one review on Amazon of it for other interested readers here on MW: link to amazon.com
The most poignant aspect of the review is that it indicated Japanese guards were individuals even within the lock box of being soldiers, as all soldiers are. Some took a risk and covertly did what they could for the Anglo-American POWs. I’m sure this was so on both sides. And it has resonance today, e.g., in the context of the I-P conflict.
Everyone has a choice to be an individual or bury their self as a cog in any given machine. Obviously, all PTB love the path most people take. They count on it. And they are rational to do so. When Americans do it is especially depressing to me as an American because Americans have been given more opportunities than any people to exert moral character without suffering extreme consequences, usually sooner than later.
Here’s some other news besides soccer: Rupert Murdoch’s ties to 9/11 & Likud Israel: link to t.co
>> OOT said OOT always supports “my country,” OOT learned in law school to separate logic and feeling … Those girls have trained so so hard.
For someone who claims they learned to “separate logic and feeling” to follow up their claim with “those girls have trained so hard” (as though, as you rightly pointed out, the girls on competing teams haven’t trained equally hard) is nothing short of laughable. Unthinking, sock-puppet loyalty to anyone or anything is pure foolishness.
>> My wife was no help. “I guess I’m for the Americans because of what the Japanese did to us in World War II.
With apologies in advance to your wife (and to you): Wow, what a stupid thing to say.
Is it? I guess so. But what is the logical approach, not the emotional approach to, “Who do you want to win the women’s World Cup today?” That’s my lawyer question, and I am a lawyer.
For those like me who was not aware of this game today, which is on ESPN commencing now, here’s some quick facts about the women’s World Cup. You will see the USA is favored by the professional gamblers and wanna bees. The Underdog is Japan, and therefore much of the world wants Japan to win on that basis alone: link to blogster.com
And here’s 5 things to watch for during the game: link to newsfeed.time.com
But what is the logical approach …
I imagine the logical approach would be to cheer for the most-skilled and best-prepared team. The OOT does not appear to be taking this approach…and that’s fine, because I understand that sports is more about emotions than logic. But, in that case, it’s pointless to mention the separation of “logic and feeling”.
Agree eljay.
Nuking two Japanese cities and vaporising several hundred thousand Japanese civilians is also a pretty fucking awful thing to have done.
Phil I thought you were joking when you said your wife ran into people who weren’t doing well in her Subaru. Maybe not? Were they Japanese?
“You’re outta line on this one, Phil.”
I think that Phil’s is a rather sane position and a really, really, really brave one. I wouldn’t have dared to “speak truth to family,” i.e., that one doesn’t even have to give a fig about sports, that I think it’s become one more bread-circus corporate con game, verging on pure treacle.
Maybe Mooser’s mountain cigarettes are a good idea, they could have tamped down any preachy edge to Phil’s views but the: “I’m/we’re number 1″ (like this matters much?) mantra deserves to be resisted. Whoa! talk about radioactive subjects…..
When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, our reaction was boycott of the Olympics + support for Afghan killers.
Then we invade Afghanistan…
Why is there no boycott against us?
It’s probably coming. Especially after August, given the way things are going in Congress.
It’s all a matter of timing, Phil. If you ever see it, read The Rape of Nanking. It takes a lot to get elderly Korean or Chinese to talk about what the Japanese did during WWII, and that information is banned and not taught in Japan to this day. And their American military overseers went along with it after the war to help the healing.
I have a Japanese friend who was born in the US and so was his Dad after his grandparents emigrated to the US. They run restaurants. But his Dad wound up in an American internment camp during WWII; he lived his teenage years there. His father is deeply bitter and unforgiving about what was done to him as an American citizen, apparently still apoplectic. My friend was too (picking up the family fight) until he married a Korean-born woman 10 years ago. When he talks to me late at night at his restaurant about what he found out from her, what happened to her family, he’s shattered. He had never heard of such barbarity during the 20th C.
What I’ve heard from old Chinese in Singapore takes your breath away.
Just FYI: That is nonsense.
As are large parts of Chang’s book, according to the overwhelming majority of the scholarly community, by the way. Japanese Historians who were working to increase awareness of the Nanking massacre in Japan were actually damaged by its publication – because their position came to be identified with such a sloppily researched, unscholarly book which could be easily picked apart by their critics. Revisionists like Shūdō Higashinakano had a field day with it.
Hey, Koshiro, give us one example of how Chang’s book was so sloppy, just so we have a clue. Thanks.
Placing the unification of Japan in the wrong century. Presenting a picture of Chinese bandits executed by Chinese forces as victims of the Nanking massacre. Using false Japanese names and confusing military rank designations with names. This kind of thing.
I don’t want to be overly harsh. Iris Chang was a journalist, not a historian. She did not speak Japanese and thus did not and could not use the bulk of Japanese sources and literature – that alone pretty much disqualified her from writing an authorative work on the subject.
What she accomplished was to bring the topic to greater attention in the West. In addition, she made a major contribution by using John Rabe’s diaries as a source.
Thanks, Koshiro, for your input. For those like me who are ignorant about this subject, and never heard about John Rabe, here’s an interesting brief discussion of the Nanking massacre weaving in Rabe to some extent: link to geoffinwuhu.blogspot.com
Koshiro,
I spoke to elderly Chinese in Singapore who lived through it. They described to me in graphic detail what life was like when Japanese soldiers roamed the streets during their occupation. The soldiers sliced the fetus off one their sisters as she walked by and used it as a football in the street. It wasn’t a one-off event. It was a common occurrence.
I spoke to a 24-year-old from there who went to Japan for university. He said none of his fellow students knew anything about that history and they dared him to prove it. So when he went home for the holidays, he brought back biographies written by some of these Chinese about what happened in the war. He found out from his fellow students that that history was banned after the war. My Japanese friend here told me the same thing.
If he “found that out”, he’s wrong. There is no such thing as “banning” history in Japan. It’s not China. There are numerous works published in Japan on the subject of Japanese war crimes, including the Nanking massacre. Contrary to Western beliefs, the vast majority of textbooks used in schools acknowledges the Nanking massacre and other war crimes.
Even Chang’s book, by the way, was published in Japan, in spite of its errors and in spite of the author’s unwillingness to have them corrected. “Banned to this day”… how do you suppose that would even work? Do you think Japan is a North Korean type police state?
On the other hand, what I can never forgive is this:
link to rawstory.com
What we did in Hiroshima & Nagasaki after the Japanese had surrendered was beyond unconscionable. Truman was a truly horrible man in my book to have allowed this, worse than any tyrant. The consequences of his actions are still with us.
But look at that link. Greg Mitchell, former editor of Editor & Publisher, wrote a book about the coverup, about the military footage that Americans were never allowed to see, and Google has just suspended an ad for Mitchell’s book, calling it an incitement to violence.
This is just one more reason why these genocides have to see the light of day. All of them. And discussed and combed over and argued about until it shakes out society. And that includes all the details of the Holocaust too, what are they hiding that it can’t be discussed; the European law is a disgrace.
I feel you but history almost never leaves us clean lines in which to neatly place our present morals.
Just for one: the grandmothers of this team voted for the first time in 1946 at the direction of the Allied Forces.
The occupation was humiliating and the Americans were pompous and hypocritical but many landless and urban poor and Korean stateless minorities welcomed the Americans as an answered prayer and were certainly happy to negotiate with the rebuilding of a new Japan.
But, root away for Japan, its a great country and this is a great team.
RE: “I switched into that withering adversarial style” – Weiss
MY COMMENT: Oh Phil! That brutal compulsion for the truth once again. That stinky old “Red Sox” at the loathsome Daily Kos is going to be so P.O.’ed!
Daily Kos: Mondo Strikes Again as Weiss Counts More Jews – link to dailykos.com
RE: “OOT learned in law school to separate logic and feeling”
CORRECTION: OOT mistakenly believes that she learned in law school to separate logic and feeling.
Logic and feeling can’t be completely separated unless OOT is an android or perhaps a Klingon. Any law school that teaches its students that “logic” and “feeling” can be “separated” by ostensibly human beings should immediately be “shuttered”. No wonder our country is such a mess.
RE: “The number of people making these dreadful decisions is so small, OOT said; how can you hold that against the people?”
MY COMMENT: Because it makes me feel better about my the frustration of not being able to have any ‘say so’ with the people making those dreadful decisions (despite this country supposedly being a representative democracy). So when the ads come on the tele asking me to contribute to the USO so that our boys and girls fighting in Afghanistan will have plenty of flat screen TVs and video games in their rec rooms I yell, “Hell no!”!
RE: “I want that era to end, and I am afraid if the American women win it will give more oxygen to American hubris…”
MY COMMENT: I agree. I’m so G_ddamned tired of hearing: “We’re number one!” “We’re number one!” “We’re number one!” “We’re number one!” “We’re number one!” [ad nauseam]
P.S. There now, I feel a wee bit better!
Well, as we irradiate the Middle East with tons and tons of DU, Japan has chosen a more direct route to gift mankind with an unearthly glow.
I seldom understand these “We’re slimier than you are” debates. Its just the flipside of “We’re number one!!!! We’re number one!!!!”
Its the rare global player that isn’t dealing shit to mankind. Fukushima is gonna prove to be an extremely tall and odorous pile. And I see Conoco Philips has decided to see if they can one-up BP on the “We Are Real Corporate Dirtbags” resumes of environmental disasters.
Its a shame some of you can’t separate these athletes from such despicable displays of state and corporate sponsored evil. They’re playin’ their hearts out, with an effort few of us match in our lifetimes.
Oh well, Japan won. That young lady on the American team can now go back to her little town, where her mom works as a waitress & moved heaven & earth to help her sports-minded daughter, and scrimped and saved so she could be there today in Germany, to watch her daughter play. And the Japanese girl can go back home, no longer wondering if Providence hated her people and so sent really bad weather (they use to think the divine winds favored them, remember?).
Pathetic. And not the good kind of pathetic.
Hi Citizen,
kamikaze:
kami – divine, hair and paper
kaze – wind
Nothing about favor. You should study the ‘koto dama’ of words, my friend. It works both ways.
Sorry, Koshiro. I wrote that in haste–I was on the way out the door. They were talking about the girl (& her mother) on the American team. Will you explain why my comment was so pathetic? Thanks.
Thanks for the information, DR. I did know kamikaze in the sense the Imperial Japanese regime used it as propaganda to build the morale of the people and calm them. That was something, not nothing, about favor, yes? Or was that BS I was taught?
A heartwarming sob story about the American girl vs. a WW2 allusion displaying your ignorance about the Japanese girl.
Yes, Koshiro, you are correct. I apologize. I am trying to become less ignorant but its a tough job,
I like this critique of law school (from a retired law prof):
‘We admit these the very bright young students and then spend the next four years beating their innate common sense out of them.’
That could be another way of saying that law schooling works to separate logic from feelings.
Did you ever read, or see The Paper Chase, ToivoS? The socratic method, as practiced when I was in law school was very brutal on first year students. OTOH, the intricacies of case law text revealed as much about the fallacies of “common sense” in a complex world as they did the obtuseness or insensitivities of legal advocacy (in an adversarial judicial system), case precedent (stare decisis), etc. Sorting “the wheat from the chaff” to determine the legal issues involved and their relationship or not from the given facts, and applying the ostensibly relevant legal principles, or not–depending on priorities of relevancy of both facts and legal principles, did not always work to separate logic from feelings. Sometimes it worked to make one more aware of feelings of others, worked to allow one to imaginatively put one’s self into the shoes of another, rather than remain tied to one’s own.
Efforts are often made in “Western” legal systems to promote the use of “logic” and diminish the influence of “feelings” (especially on the part of the arbiter/judge who decides/interprets/applies “the law”). The black-robed judge on an elevated platform. The marble courtroom. Architecture borrowed from ancient Greece. Notions of precedence (stare decisis). And other things discussed in “Jurisprudence 101″ – including Kafka, Kierkegaard, Dickens, Wittgenstein* etc. But “Jurisprudence 101″ also taught that “feelings” cannot be entirely eliminated (even in the areas of legal process where they are considered most undesirable). Consequently, a trial lawyer emphasizes “feelings” in persuading the jury to adopt his version of the “facts”, and he/she emphasizes “logic” in persuading the judge to adopt his/her version of the “applicable law”. But he/she will (wittingly and/or unwittingly) also (best covertly) appeal to the judge’s “feelings” even when arguing a “point of law”.
A rambling, elderly (emeritus-type) law professor suffered a “digression” during class one day and told us about an case in the early 1950s (which might have been actual, metaphorical, imagined or G_d only knows what).
The Ga. Supreme Court had decided a case that appeared to contradict what had been thought to be “established law” in Georgia. Virtually no explanation was given by the court for the decision and many of the “fancy pants” Atlanta lawyers were “up in arms” trying to figure out what the hell had gone on (whether everyone had been “mistaken” as to what had been the “established law”, or whether the court had overturned the old “established law” and established new “established law”).
Shortly after the aforementioned decision had “come down” from our “high court”, the professor (not then nearly so elderly) happened to be at a poker game where one of the justices was also a player. So he asked the justice to explain the “rationale” for their decision. The justice replied that the “widow woman’s” erstwhile husband had been a WWII veteran (a “fact” completely “irrelevant” to the case at the trial level, and especially “irrelevant” on appeal where errors of “law” made by the trial judge are supposedly the issue). In other words, the decision was akin to the U.S. Supreme Court’s 2000 decision in Bush v. Gore and was not meant to be considered as legal precedent. It’s just that the 1950s Ga. Supreme Court, unlike the 2000 U.S. Supreme Court, had not had the chutzpah to admit it.
* Ledeen takes Wittgenstein to the delusional extreme (in my very biased – yet humble – opinion) – link to nationalreview.com
Well, yes Dickerson, any trial lawyer will pull out all the stops, appealing directly to logic, and/or false logic, as well as directly and/or indirectly to legally irrelevant feelings. That’s justified under the adversary process in the USA. All of Jurisprudence 101 comes into the game for no law is respected as law if it’s here today, gone tomorrow, especially as to cases before the court similar to past cases in applicable legal principles and their rationals. And, as to appeals cases and bench trials, ultimately, the judge is just another human, some with considerable moral/ethical-mental integrity, some with quite little. Nursed biases and feelings are considerable under the judicial robes. And, even when judges are elected, most voters pick purely by party or name as they have little real information about the candidates even when the few voters bother to check it out.
RE: “OOT learned in law school to separate logic and feeling”
FROM Phil Rockstroh:
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to consortiumnews.com
It’s just a game folks.
It’s not like the outcome will create war or world peace.
I just hope the American audience doesn’t paint their faces red, white and blue, go shirtless and wear feathers.
Or otherwise show their asses like so many of our ‘sports fans” do today.
Once upon a time the US was welcomed with open wine bottles as a liberator. Today those bottles are thrown at ‘US.’
It’s all your fault Phil! I hope you’re happy!
link to nytimes.com
world-cup.html?hp
THUS SAITH I: In my humble opinion, Julian Schnabel’s film Miral (2010) was superb. Virtually flawless. The Blu-ray was dazzling. A veritable feast of colors. With an excellent musical score.
Miral, 2010, PG-13, 112 minutes
After she rescues dozens of children who survived a massacre in Jerusalem in 1948, Palestinian Hind Husseini (Hiam Abbass) establishes an orphanage that helps thousands of other children left homeless by violence. But the success of her peace-through-education institution is tested when pupil Miral (Freida Pinto) gets a taste of radical politics in the region’s refugee camps. Julian Schnabel directs this film that co-stars Willem Dafoe.
Netflix Availability: DVD and Blu-ray
NETFLIX LISTING – link to movies.netflix.com
P.S. REFERRED TO BY SCHNABEL IN THE ‘DIRECTOR’S COMMENTARY’ TO MIRAL:
The Battle of Algiers (La Battaglia di Algeri) 1966 NR 121 minutes [Streaming available from Netflix until 7/22/11]
One of the most influential films in the history of political cinema, Gillo Pontecorvo’s The Battle of Algiers focuses on the events of 1957, a key year in Algeria’s struggle for independence from France. Shot in the streets of Algiers in documentary style, the film vividly re-creates the tumultuous Algerian uprising against the occupying French. The violence soon escalates on both sides in this war drama that’s still astonishingly relevant.
Netflix Availability: Streaming and DVD (Blu-ray from 8/9/11, streaming until 7/22/11)
NETFLIX LISTING – link to movies.netflix.com
P.S. Might also be available on YouTube.
Huh. Dickerson, I watched part of Miral yesterday after the World Cup–up to the point where the girl was molested and fled, became a belly-dancer in a depraved bar–my sister had just remarked that they could have cut the lingering on her swiveling navel by half, when a storm knocked out our electricity. I noticed the rating of the version I was looking at was R, not PG-13 & I wondered why. I may finish seeing the film tonight at my sister’s home.
the best reason to support the japanese this year is because they’ve had a spectacularly horrendous year. i can’t believe that didn’t enter your mind phil. the whole universe should be rooting for japan simply because of that. think globally!
that said, no i don’t blame the US team for our atrocious middle east policies. but i think there’s a time to root for the japanese and that would be now. i am glad they won.
The “empire” must be humbled in every way…sports included. I agree with this opinion 110%. JAPAN WON…good.
I really enjoyed the match. It could have gone either way. The male announcer on ESPN was dreadful.
I wish we lived in a peaceful, healthy world where 1,000 times as many young women were able to participate in tournaments like the World Cup or the Olympics.
I wish all religions exalted women in public activities such as sports, and where all governments protected talented young female athletes from any sort of discrimination.
The players on the pitch showed more courtesy today toward each other than some of the commenters here today showed toward others commenting.
My only comment about Japanese and World War II is that my Aleut friend, long-since passed away, who was captured and interned by the Japanese in 1942, was better treated in Hokkaido than were the Aleuts interned from the Aleutians to SE Alaska. According to him, a higher percentage of Aleuts interned by the Americans during WWII died (mostly from disease in the abandoned canneries where they were stashed) than did Aleuts put to work in Japanese mines after their removal from the Aleutians.
I had 4 uncles who fought in the Pacific War; they had some dreadful stories–one of them is still alive.
I could be mistaken, but wasn’t the big problem with the Japanese pre-WW2 and WW2 the way they treated the Chinese people and other peoples in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere?
When OOT said s/he never mixed politics and sport, s/he was being a little disingenuous. The fact that women are playing in a game organized into teams representing national states is highly political.
And Hope Solo is cooler.
It was a close game. The Japanese play nicer football though. The American game is all about their extra physical presence, they were much stronger, but it’s a bit “route 1″. Pass and move, like the Japanese played is better to watch. I knew the Japanese would won the shoot-out when I saw the team-talks at the end. They didn’t look like they were feeling much pressure, the Americans looked petrified of losing “to the Japanese”.
mikeo, yes the Americans were about their physical presence, but not all about it. They exerted themselves and played a good game of control too, the talent the Japanese team is famous for. Also, the Americans racked up a whole bunch of shots early on, but none made it into the net–some of that was not due to sloppy shooting, but was just a matter of lack of any luck. The Japanese knew all the moves the Americans might make in the shoot-out; in contrast, the Americans had no prior viewing to study the Japanese ahead of time; they were thus handicapped there. It’s true the Japanese kept their composure (except near the end, when it looked like the Americans would take it with time runnng out fast) as compared to the Americans.
Yeah I was a bit unfair. After the 1st half I thought the US would go on to win easily. They created better chances and were bullying the Japanese. But the Jaoanese play more composed football. Once they got a foothold in the game and started to create chances it was panic stations at the back for America. The Japanese never let their heads drop, the Americans seemed rattled that they got back into it twice… Anyway good game, both good sides, I just prefer the style of play of the Japanese.
I find it extremely difficult to get worked up about sports and flags and related chest beating and cheering.
Who cares?
My dream game would be when Israel and the U.S. face off in a match. I would love to overhear conversations at the Whitehouse and in Congress about that game and it’s hoped-for outcome. Any predictions about how that will go? “Well our minds are with the American team but our hearts are with the Israelis”… etc.. etc..
If Israel lost to the U.S. team the next morning Congress, in an effort to placate any hard feelings, would pass an emergency bill authorizing an increase in military aid to kill more Palestinians. The President will call it a victory for both countries. Etc. etc.,
If Israel won, then the same increase will be called a reward. But aid will increase never the less.
I think I found this quote on this site and just love it.
No better argument for how primitive we humans still are.
“Man is not a rational animal, man is a rationalizing animal.”
CigarGod ~ of HP fame?
I used to comment on HP regularly until it was revealed that two of the nastiest zionist regulars (StC and LG) were running a blog instructing people how to have pro-Palestinian HP’ers banned, and the HP mods declined to ban them, despite them being in violation of HP terms of service. I left in disgust.
I saw your name a few weeks ago and want to say a belated WELCOME! Great to see you here.
Me and chaos were kicked out of the Huff and we bear that badge proudly. I don’t remember you being there Sumud – did you post under this name on HP?
No Taxi it was under a different name: hemara. I started on HP in time to catch the end of Chaos as Memory Alpha.
Aaaaah the old days of ‘Memory Alpha’. Yes, yes, genius posting by Chaos in them days: such guru-wit, so astonishingly succinct: perfect little zio-bashing haiku’s.
Actually Chaos and I got kicked out several times over and kept coming back under a different name. For months we did this. We were so outnumbered in them days – which is cool if your sleeves are already rolled up and you’re ready to rumble :-)
Then what seemed like overnight at the huffington post, old (ignorant) moderators were replaced by many evil little Denis Ross-es who wouldn’t even allow Wikipedia links if they favored Palestine, not even a link to a map of historic Palestine – always allowed zio personalized attacks and always censored all responses to these attacks: always gave the last word in any argument to the zios. We were clearly targeted by a buncha hysterically bad moderators for a so-called ‘liberal blog’ (gag!)! But heck we were relentless, we had FACTS on our side and frankly we were smarter than the rest of ‘em and managed to get them chasing their own tails for hours in public – woohooo!
Anywayz, several days after me and chaos got kicked out, separately but for the same reason, we found each other again here on mondo :-)
So like you were ‘hemara’? How was it for you? And did you earn the honor-badge of getting kicked out too? LOL! I hate the huffffffffington post, I hate the huffington post so much and it’s so unbelievably pleasing to feel this way LOL! Have a nice day Sumud :-)
Hi Taxi, LOL, good to vent that emotion :-)
No I wasn’t kicked out but left in disgust, see my comment above to CigarGod about why. I found the moderators to be pretty strict and wouldn’t let all kinds of comments through for no apparent reason – they had their agenda obviously!
I actually didn’t know much about Israel/Palestine when I first started reading HP. I paid very close attention to the Iran election articles at HP when that occurred and that inevitably led to I/P because of the zio-trolls, whose rhetoric was always way over the top. I was fresh back from a few years living in the Middle East and their islamophobia was exceedingly obvious.
I’d also been in Jordan not long before that and met Palestinians, so at a certain point I decided that I needed to properly understand the situation and read into it a lot – an incredibly shocking experience actually, when you realise the monumental scale of the deceptions the press and others have undertaken.
You’re right, none of the zios at HP are much chop, but it was actually very useful to read their crap, then go and research the facts before responding. I had a crash course in hasbara-busting, so to speak :-)
I did get a warning from one of the HP mods once, who took it upon himself to access my email details and let me know he didn’t like me using the term “jewish terrorists” to describe the Irgun, Lehi etc., despite the fact that the contemporary press reports from the late 1940s all referred to them in that way. The mods never seemed to have a problem with referring to muslims like that. Not just particular groups of muslims, but all of them…
Anyway, all’s well that ends well, and the end is nigh. Without HP I might never have found Mondoweiss.
Most athletes are very nationalistic themselves…and lean to the right.
This is especially true of National Team level.
They get housing, food, travel, training, etc., all on the team budget.
Granted, some team budgets are tiny, and the road to being a NT member can be largely financed by the athlete, but once there, they want to stay there and the NT system is very “patriotic”.
That is the best I can do to lay any justification for world politics on an athletes door.
Phil, if I wanted to, I could argue against the Japanese team because of their whaling. treatment of women,…any number of issues.
But, the real point and enjoyment of the WC, are athletes trying to be the best of each nation trying to be the best they can be on any given day.
What did the poet say about mixing ones vocation with ones avocation?
WOW! Phil – You created a firestorm. I do love seeing the Japanese win. I could care less about these teams, though. Corporate US pays for everything and those awful commentators were so biased it wasn’t funny. I only watched the last bits of the semis and the final at a friends house.
Keep up your outrage .. that’swhat is GREAT about your blog.
Have you read Dave Zirin’s stuff on sports and politics? I bet you’d like it. for instance:
link to amazon.com
Both teams played incredible football. It was a joy to watch, a heart-stopping one at that. My thoughts, for better or worse, were only with the women on the pitch, not any fans or governments. And I have to say, they both played with incredible class. Even after hard fouls (when the men’s teams would have been in each other’s faces or faking injuries), they just helped each other up — I even saw a Japanese player apologize once, and the American player waved it off as if to say, “Just part of the game.”
And afterwards, the American women didn’t pity themselves or say they deserved it — they simply said Japan played amazingly and are now the world champions, and if they had to lose to anyone, they were pleased it was such a great team.
This is why women should rule the world. :)
“This is why women should rule the world”
Its ok with me.
I always kinda wished I could kick back and eat grapes while you gals did the heavy lifting.
Oh yeah, cuz we’re just kicking back eating grapes over here… ;)
[That's sarcasm, in case the punctuational wink didn't come through]
“I always kinda wished I could kick back and eat grapes while you gals did the heavy lifting.”
Too late, pal. I married that one, and we look like going all the way to par. Had our 22nd Anniversary on July 15.
It’s always been a happy marriage, even more so after I learned to duck.
Had our 22nd Anniversary on July 15. It’s always been a happy marriage
super congrats mooser, that’s quite an accomplishment in this day and age. even if you have to duck once in awhile.
;)
Kudos, Mooser. That’s quite an accomplishment these days, even for married couples who come from the same backgrounds. Do you two have kids?