The Globes financial daily, which tends to lean towards free-market libertarianism, puts the word Panic in big, bold letters right over the picture of Netanyahu. (picture thanks to Didi Remez)
Netanyahu does, in fact, have something to panic about. 150,000 Israeli citizens were out in the streets, demonstrating on Saturday evening, up from 30,000 the previous Saturday. Tent encampments are popping up all over Israel, everywhere from the poshest center of Tel Aviv to the most disadvantaged cities in what they like to call “the periphery” - the hastily-built towns outside of the center, which served as place-holders to keep Palestinians from reclaiming their land after 1948, populated by state decree by the Jews brought in from Europe’s Displaced Persons camps and by the Arab Jews brought in with little say about their fate, in collusions by despotic leaders from Muslim countries and the nnw Jewish state, soon after 1948. The first encampment started on Rothschild Avenue, where a disgruntled renter, Daphne Leef, pitched her tent. Leef, a filmmaker unable to make ends meet, declared on her Facebook page that she was moving into the boulevard until economic conditions were livable. A few others joined her, angry about the skyrocketing rents inside Tel Aviv - and the impossibility of transportation outside it with Israel’s rickety and increasingly unreliable mass transit disorganization.
This protest - at the heart of Tel Aviv’s most affluent area, by people who had played by the rules, done the required military service, studied at universities - and couldn’t make end meets even after doing all of that - struck a chord with Israelis everywhere. I counted thirty encamplents on the map here: each pin on the map signifies an encampment, with dozens of tents and slogans demanding one thing: “social justice”.
They weren’t the first group to protest this year in Israel. The doctors and medical residents have been striking for nearly half a year, demanding fair wages and livable working conditions. Dairy farmers have done so as well. University students joined in (protesting fee hikes), as did some 44 of the parliamentary assistants working with Knesset members (reported here on Wednesday) and parents, who pushed strollers in a march of despair, complaining about the high cost of childcare and demanding free education in gov’t supervised creches and preschools. Also in with the protesters were the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, Physicians for Human Rights, several political parties, and Rabbis for Human Rights. These names may seem familiar to readers who have followed the protests against the occupation, but it is far from being a protest about the occupation. The reverse may be true: protesters have repeatedly said that they are “not political” - all they want is some Israeli version of the New Deal (yup. Roosevelt’s New Deal) - and they don’t want to restrict it to what has been traditionally called “the left”, which has been thoroughly rejected by Israelis. The paradigm of talking about justice and what is right to do has collapsed - to the great dismay of the few thousand Jewish Israelis who still see the world through the lens of universal justice. Out of the ashes of humanistic justice, though, one sees a new consensus arise - and one that could help bring justice to Palestine & Israel, for the first time since 1948.
Netanyahu is, as I said, panicking. Chants at the protests made sure to mention the police (notoriously low-paid, and legally prohibited from unionizing) among the sectors that needed a new deal. This so worried Netanyahu that he announced a 40% pay hike for them [http://www.iba.org.il/bet/bet.aspx?type=1&entity=751994&topic=917 - via http://dubikan.com/archives/2023 & @NitayPeretz on Twitter]. Unheard-of steps are being taken to return excess funds by the Israel Water Association, which appears to have overcharged for its services. Silvan Shalom (whose current titles is Minister for Development of the Negev and Galillee and Regional Cooperation) and Coalition Chief Zeev Elkin tried to recruit the Livni Kadima party into the government from the opposition, accusing Kadima of populism. Sunday morning, Netanyahu’s Chief of Treasury (not minister of finance - the general manager of the treasury, a position with (much) more power) quit, due to professional disagreements between himself and Treasury Minister Steinitz. Sunday afternoon, Netanyahu sent his spokesman Roni Sofer to the press, to insist that the protest is “excessive” and that “the society has stopped setting boundaries for itself.” Protest organizers laughed heartily and said that the government doesn’t know what it’s talking about - and called for a nationwide strike Monday.
There is good reason for their assertion. Netanyahu is on film commenting on the Arab Spring revolutions. He says that the entire Middle East is shaking - except for one country, where (according to him) there is a full democracy and equal rights for everyone under the law. Here’s a remix of that clip, with scenes from the demonstrations interspersed, put together by Noy Alushe: So things are lively in Israel. All over Israel. There are tent encampments in Jaffa and in the Levinski Park, with activists from the posher (and more Jewish) areas joining in solidarity. In Qiryat Shmona and in Baqa, in Jerusalem and in Ashdod. Blogger Kikar Hamyoashim (a pseudonym) told me that he has seen more courtesy and consideration in Tel Aviv during the protests than at other times: cars stopped for him when he came to a crosswalk four times on a single afternoon, and people said things like “please” and “thank you” and generally acted like people were not the enemy but rather, members of the same society.
The demonstrations are tweeted with the #j14 hashtag; some of the organization is being done via Facebook, some via twitter, some via telephone and by existing personal contacts. Writer Roni Gelbfish called in some writer-friends, to read to the kids living in the tent encampments. Musicians have joined in. Musicians show up, ask for a guitar (Barry Sacharoff was handed three guitars when he asked for one) and perform either impromptu or scheduled shows. Sanitary facilities spring up, and organization begins to take place, in a mode which described by City Tree activist Assaf Shuhami as a Scale-free network.
What the activists want is nothing less than an entirely new social contract. They want to roll back the Shock Doctrine privatization, and regain a security network for what used to be the middle class, before Netanyahu and the neo-liberals sold off the assets - which had originally been taken over from the Palestinians, between the end of WWI and the 1948.
They don’t just want the government to fall; they want the system to change, from the ground up. They want to see a system which they describe as “fair” - a system where life is a playable game.
What will this mean for Palestine, though? What will it mean for the Palestinian citizens of Israel, and for the Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, or in exile? When the Israeli government falls, and the New Deal protesters are asking for is worked out in detail, Israel will be at a turning point. It can either continue as an apartheid state - or step back and reorganize as the kind of entity Azmi Bishara described as “a state for all its citizens”. The timing, so close to September and the declaration of statehood in the Bantustans of the West Bank, is fortuitous: it would be fairly easy to preempt that, and declare a single state, with a sharing of resources and power among all its citizens - which would allow the resources to be diverted from military adventurism to the sort of state that the protesters are demanding. It is a possible path from here to there, and the very first such possible path I’ve seen. There are, however, other possibilities: Netanyahu could pull out the war card, to galvanize people behind fear of a perceived enemy; or the Israelis might decide that they actually like living in an apartheid environment, and upon rethinking it, decide to maintain that structure.
The protests are radically different from anything I’ve seen in Israel, ever. I am cautiously hopeful that they could lead to one state, with equal rights for all, regardless of ethnicity, and an ingathering of Palestinian exiles. Inshallah.
The tent protests are significant in Israel.
They will not lead to a single state. That is a fantasy.
They will though shift the Israeli electorate 5 or 10 seats to the left, if the issues remain relevant.
And, that will lead to the prospect of a settlement freeze, restored and fulfilled negotiations with the PA.
The wild card are the two right-wing militant camps, the Baruch Goldstein Israeli right, and the Al Qassam Hamas militia Palestinian right.
Historically, they have both timed violence to distract from progress.
It appears that Bibbi is not the only one panicking.
chuckle.
Sooner or later Netanyahu is going to be desperate enough to take his military and use it against these protests too. Just you watch.
Richard Witty equates the right-wing in Israel to Hamas in terms of ‘time violence to distract from progress.’
Let’s look at an example, the Gaza ceasefire in 2008.
The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling – Johann Hari – The Independent
Source: independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-true-story-behind-this-war-is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html
About those rockets.
IDF admits to overestimating Gaza rocket severity, but warns worst may be yet to come – Haaretz
Source: haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052046.html
Palestinians and Israelis killed during the cease-fire in Gaza killed throughout the cease-fire by Israel.
B’Tselem (Summary by Wikipedia)
Source: btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=1®ion=GAZA
Meanwhile, the Israel MFA report noted of Hamas’s ceasefire conduct:
The Six Months of the Lull Arrangement – Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center
Source: terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf
The Gaza massacre was a blatant example of Israel’s intentions. Only the most shameless partisan, ideological hacks such as Richard Witty would say otherwise.
Zeev Moaz explains the record between Israel and it’s Arab opponents.
Defending the Holy Land : A Critical Analysis of Israel’s Security and Foreign Policy
About the author, Zeev Moaz:
Wiki-leaks memos on the cease-fire:
From the following Wiki-leak memo:
Source: link to dazzlepod.com
Israel is at war with the Palestinian people, everywhere.
The Palestinians will not get on their knees and submit to Zionism. They will not accept a Swiss Cheese State.
Many of the memos sum up the situation perfectly: Israel’s maximum offer to the Palestinians does not reach the MINIMUM that they will begin to think about.
Now, as the Palestine papers have shown, the PA was willing to give up so much in order to appease Israel. Israel refused. Who is the sincere party to peace?
The Palestinians have no bargaining chips except their dignity/existence.
If they give everything up, then Israel will deal. Until then it’s more of the same.
Dick Witty, in typical fashion:
cites no sources
does not refer to the documentary record
And yet, arrives at a general conclusion about the entire situation.
Witty, who supports the settlers and approves of the Nakba as the ‘ends justifies the means’, posts 10,000+ comments on Mondoweiss, and has the gall to slander Phil when there is an apparent ‘opening’ to do so (the DailyKos ban by other like-minded Zionist racists, hypocrites and in general – jerks).
They call for “social justice” but this is actually a movement of selfish justice. The same population that wallows in indifference and apathy at injustice done to others is now up in arms to demand justice for themselves.
It’s not really unprecedented in its nature, although it may be in its scope. There have been similar movements before. Israelis are always taking to the tents. Remember the single mothers’ movement – where are those women now?
I’ll bet that not a one of those demanding “social justice” would blink in protest if the government decided to perpetrate another Land Day and confiscate the rest of Arab land in Israel on which to build more ugly apartments for Jews.
Potsherd points out:
The same population that wallows in indifference and apathy at injustice done to others is now up in arms to demand justice for themselves.
True, true but do not complain. Cracks are appearing in the Zionist paradise, let us sit back and observe.
I glad to say you’d lose your bet. I’ve been discussing this (at length) with various protesters in Israel, and at least some of them have been committed to the struggles in Bil’in, Nebi Saleh, Al Arakib, and Sheikh Jarah (to mention a few.
Is that a mainstream position? No. But what we may possibly be seeing now is a chance for a broad restatement of the principles underlying the state. And if there *is* such a broad restatement, we may possibly see a restatement along the lines of equality for all.
That’s a lot of hedging and “may possibly” and hopefulness, I know. But up until July 14th I had seen no way forward but an ocean of blood. Now I do see a possible way forward. I will seize that hope, for now.
People who were already protesting real social injustice may also be joining the selfishness demonstrations, but I doubt that these are going to be struck with an urge to demonstrate for justice to Arabs. In fact, the protestors seem to bending over to distance their activities from “leftists” who think that justice might apply to non-Jews.
This piece from 972 makes the same point
link to 972mag.com
That’s a serious point – if a little bit of a downer. But very true from where I sit…
What the hell is he worried about??? All he has to do is call them a threat to Israel’s security, and flood ‘em with raw sewage.
…and regain a security network for what used to be the middle class, before Netanyahu and the neo-liberals sold off the assets
It is so right that this protest is directed at Bibi. He was the driving force behind making sure the rich got richer while the poor got kicked in the teeth. His economic legacy is a “strong economy” at the expense of a weakened society.
“He was the driving force behind making sure the rich got richer while the poor got kicked in the teeth.”
But, what about the “genetic markers”? Don’t they prevent that sort of thing among the tribe?
i wouldn’t expect much… but i suppose israel may shift center, or center-left with some real luck. if this helps dislodge the few families and media moguls which help brainwash the israelis into some 1984 hasbara reality, the shift could be good. talk of justice cannot help but make some find common cause with arab-israelis, or even those under occupation.
but i find it sick that gas, cottage cheese, and high rents (mainly in tel aviv) get so much protest, when most all ignored the brutal occupation.
but the big hope is this…. they start to look at the costs of occupation, the costs of perpetual war, and the massive subsidies the illegal settlers get. they may not end the occupation for palestinian’s rights, but out of pure self-interest they may soon turn on the insane, costly occupation (with growing BDS representing another self-interested financial motivator). most israelis do despise the settler subsidies and the religious folks on welfare (and growing with their huge families).
fingers crossed for a coming thought revolution, but not holding my breath. but we must not loose hope, and this could yield some fruit.
the cost of investing all their construction funds on the other side of the greenline and appropriating massive subsidies for people to move into them might be a good place to look.
BDS is a crucial support for Palestinian civil society. It will also help Israeli protesters apply pressure on Israel’s government, but that is just a welcome side effect and not the reason that it is right to commit to BDS.
In a way this feels like the pivotal days of F.W. De Klerk’s rule, with things going very fast and history applying much-needed pressure. If Netanyahu becomes Israel’s De Klerk and gains historical importance for that reason – so be it.
The crucial pressure on De Klerk didn’t come from boycotts, protests, or outside influences, although these things certainly helped. He was forced to reassess his position when there was a successful election boycott in South Africa with only 7% turnout. Once De Klerk saw that he only had 7% support and that his regime could no longer claim to be a legitimate government with the consent of the governed, he had no choice but to begin making concessions.
I doubt if such a thing could happen in Israel (or in the US for that matter), but I will persist in advocating the only proven nonviolent solution I know of. Only when a government sees that it lacks the support of the people, can it be forced to change. As long as people vote, no matter who they vote for, the regime holding the election can continue to do whatever it wants with no fear. Nonviolent protests can be suppressed, violence can be met with greater violence, and economic boycotts can be weathered with the financial support of the big multinational corporations. The only tactic that cannot be dealt with is when a government can’t succeed in getting out the vote.
The last phase of the Rachel Corrie trial was delayed for about 4 months because of a court system workers’ strike. The strike doesn’t appear to have been well covered in English.
I wonder how this will play out. Will Bibi end up using force to end the protests? If so, will the tear gas and assorted sh*t sent to Israel by the US pro-Apartheid regime end up being used against Israeli Jews? (Even more than it is already, when it is used in protests where Israeli Jews are joining Palestinians in protesting the Occupation).
It is usually a mistake to blame a system on its chief spokesperson. Egyptians forced Mubarak to step down but his system remained in place. If Netanyahu is forced out will the Israeli economy be any less reliant upon blood diamonds from the Congo and global arms sales? If not, then the same policies are likely to prevail no matter who is in charge.
Here in the US voters flip frantically back and forth between Republicans and Democrats, hoping for change despite it being obvious that both parties rely on the same corporate interests for funding that they couldn’t get without betraying the interests of their constituents. If an economy is based in large part on war crimes, its leaders will always be war criminals.
Remember all the people who thought that Obama might bring about change from the Bush agenda, only to find that he expanded upon that exact same agenda? The Egyptians who thought that once Mubarak was gone the detention and torture of civilians would stop?
In capitalist countries, the political agenda is set by the wealthiest and most powerful multinational capitalists like the Rockefellers and Rothschilds. They let the ruling political parties know which candidates are most acceptable to them and will therefore get the biggest donations, and which are unacceptable and won’t get any donations. And whoever gets the most money can dominate the airwaves and get the most votes.
A protest that isn’t political isn’t a protest, it’s a temper tantrum.
Excellent post.
Yup. The transnationals have been dictating US foreign and economic policy for 22 years here, and Israel, stupidly and following the same model, thought it would work there.
By transnational (US version) I mean a US company that makes US goods with a US name and sells them here, but operates entirely outside the US in the lowest labor pools in the world and parks its dough and profits offshore as well.
There are just over 100 true US transnationals. They destroyed the US economy (along with getting derivatives unregulated by law on Dec 15, 2000). But the average schmoe knows nothing about this; they’re still calling for anti-immigration fences, and blaming Mexicans, or railing about the debt/deficit with zero understanding of what they are talking about. The only person I know who is addressing the latter in a sane way is Dr. William K Black (Bill Black). He’s one of a handful (has a PhD in it) who understands ‘control fraud’, a legal term. Which means fraud by those in control.
MRW, we sure seem to read the same people. William Black knows a lot about bank regulations, as well he should. Heard him speak on a local radio station and was blown away by his insights, especially on what he called “liar’s loans’. Went to look him up on the web and sure enough he is one smart dude. Wonder why we don’t see more of him on TV. Actually, I don’t really wonder since I know the answer to my own wonderment, alas.
Danaa, the description of those liar’s loans takes your breath away, doesn’t it. I mean, I had no idea until he started laying it out. Why he isn’t in the WH talking to Obama is beyond me, although the crew keeps him isolated.
Do you read Yves Smith? Nakedcapitalism.com. Another smart one.
Dominant nations move in lock-step, the same thing happens all over the globe as a few get richer and the rest suffer. This is the legacy of playing ball in the current global system, the only problem is that the people are still a critical element in Israel – they are needed by the elites to continue to fill their coffers while the rest receive less.
It is a point of critical importance that this current course is exploited, and it will be. The Israelis need to know that they are no more important than the Palestinians and the other surrounding nations which they are directed to bomb by their masters. That if there was no need for them they would do the same thing to them, the net of disenfranchisement grows just like in the states and those who did not face the prospect of poverty have fallen while a few have grown wildly rich.
The key is not to allow that to happen while there is still time, while the few still need the body count, they must be crippled so that there is no remedy to continue the same direction in Israel. Tell them, I won’t do what you told me – and many here thought that there was no inroad though the themes I have spoken about before, you just might be wrong – watch and see, better yet agitate and participate. They will kill their elite dreams in the capitalistic crib, stop and take a look at the Palestinians – there is where you are headed if you do not reverse this.
I WON’T DO WHAT YOU TOLD ME
One of the gaping holes in what you conceive of as resistance is this gap between the rich and poor in Israel. Because of ignoring this theme, which is global in proportion, we miss the critical grip that is needed, the handle, to making inroads in Israeli society. Don’t miss the opportunity, there is a terrible grinding going on economically in the USA, it has a twin in Israel, and it is breaking out globally. By the way, if you think are immune to what is transpiring, think again.
I support israelis living in tents the same way israeli tent dwellers for decades supported Palestinians living in tents.
I’m always pleased when I hear that another scabby corner of Apartheid israeli society has cracked open.
“Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold…” – W.B. Yeats.
omar talked about cracks too.
Perhaps someone might find this of interest. It is not possible to advocate for Palestinians rights at the Huff Post. The reasons are obvious. However in a recent post Noah Ephron did have a post on the housing shortage in Tel Aviv.
I posted the question: I am puzzled about this housing shortage. Israel has been building whole new towns in the West Bank , with subsidized rents and mortgages and advertising for tenants. In the whole nation there is no housing shortage. Why don’t these people move to these new settlements? It national policy to encourage people to move there.
And someone answered:
Toivo, I’m afraid your lack of knowledge regarding Israeli life is showing, but don’t feel bad. It is widely shared by many posters. Tel Aviv and the West Bank are as far apart sociologically as Salt Lake City and Las Vegas. Tel Aviv is a modern secular, vibrant city, with no lack of its share of problems it would share with other cities of its size, as the article indicates. Many are opposed to West Bank settlements, and have no sympathy at all for the ultra orthodox Haredi communities that are dotting the West Bank landscape. It is also a significant distance geographically from the West Bank to Tel Aviv, but the political and religious distance could be measured in light years.
So this Zionist wants us to know that the really civilized Israelis that live in Tel Aviv consider their settlers as heathens. They certainly have no interest in living with them. But alas these settlers are the shock troops that extend Israeli borders ever farther into the wilds of Arab lands.
the ultra orthodox Haredi communities that are dotting the West Bank landscape
Apart from Betar Ilit, Kiryat Sefer/Modi’in Ilit and a couple of settlements in E. Jerusalem (Ramot Polin, Ramat Shlomo), there are no “ultra orthodox Haredi communities” in the West Bank (note the commenter’s use of the hasbaristically-correct term “communities”, rather than settlements or colonies). The large settlements of Ariel, Ma’aleh Adumim and Givat Ze’ev, for example, are mixed (moderate)religious-secular, and the stereotypical settlements the commenter refers to are, for the most part, “national religious”, not haredi.
It is also a significant distance geographically from the West Bank to Tel Aviv
Ariel-Tel Aviv: 40 km (good highway and decent public transport).
Ariel-Tel Aviv: 40 km (good highway and decent public transport).
For us Americans who are metrically challenged, that’s 25 miles.
The worst case scenario for Bibi, he goes for early elections. No big deal. Let the demonstrators set up their parties and run and we will see how much support they really have when they need to spell out their populistic ideas. There are some legitimate grievances, especially regarding housing. But what to do? Israel is a very small country and densely populated.
As for the one state solution, another several million refugees coming in will surely solve the housing problem…
eee
“But what to do?”
Uh? Occupation isn’t cheap. End occupation, f&ck off outta Palestine, take your illegal settlers and build homes in Israel.
“eee” I’m glad to see you recognise that some Jews are more equal than others.
How would they go back to Israel when all of Israel is occupied palestinian soil. their is not an inch of Israel that was gained legally.
I’m sorry talk but if we insist that agreements are only valid and have force if we feel like it renders the whole system of international agreements meaningless.
I might be dense but I never read word one of this kind of discontent in Israel and all of a sudden I read there are 150,000 people (!!!) in the streets. How come we never read about this anger before? Or have we and for some reason (slow synapses!) it never previously registered with me?
You haven’t heard about it because our media never speaks of the discontent among Israelis. Moreover, most of the Israelis we do hear from on blogs etc are English speaking, or at least comfortable with English. The average israeli isn’t comfortable expressing themselves in any language other than Hebrew. So, by definition, we only hear from a subset of people – often more politically inclined than the average, more linguistically adept, disproportionately Anglo and disproportionately well and broadly educated. As for the zionist peddlers we meet here and elsewhere – they are all Anglos. Whether they moved to israel as adults or spent some time there and left, or whatever. They claim to speak for israelis, but generally they are breed apart, which explains the extra time they have on their hands to comment here.
I often do hear from israelis who are more in the middle – not active politically, not particularly knowledgeable about the world out there (other than what they see on TV and film), not very curious about other places (except when they get to go there on vacation), not all that into high culture, and more often than not – mired in the day-to-day toil of getting through another day, and having some fun along the way. These people – everyone I know – have been complaining to high heaven for quite a while now. But you only read about the discontent in the Hebrew papers. And frankly, most of us here are more into issues that have to do with the occupation than Israeli’s economic issues.
So I’d say it’s partly the language barrier, partly the cultural-milieu barrier and partly our own preference, that we should have been surprised. I was only amazed at the speed with which the protests took off, maybe because despite my own information sources, not living there means I didn’t know the problems have become so monumental so quickly. I kinda thought they would escalate over a period of years but the huge growth in the proportion of young people has probably accelerated things quite a bit.
the huge growth in the proportion of young people has probably accelerated things quite a bit.?
Thanks, Danaa.
I remember reading that it is not only the Haredim ad the National Religious who have large families (it is not uncommon to see families of 7+ children), but that in secular, affluent North Tel Aviv, the fashion these days is to have 4 children.
Elliott, I hear similar information about the preference for larger families among the secular. Until not too long ago, three was de rigeur number of children for the Ashkenzi seculars, with a few settling for two. A one child family was quite uncommon, and often unintentional unintentional. But there has been undercurrent building that seculars should try to do their share of “fertilizing” the land, if only because of the fear that they’ll be swept away by the Haredi and the national religious, not to mention the Arabs.
Problem is, the country is too small and the better jobs too concentrated in too few areas (defense leading the way + high tech), so the country can’t really sustain the huge increase in population given it’s rate of economic growth. And that before we even mention the disproportionate outlay of resources to sustain the occupation on the one hand and a rapidly growing welfare dependent population on the other hand (the yeshiva-sitting, non-productive Haredi especially). All in all, in such a tiny country and despite the substantial assistance they get from the US, things are bound to come to a head. sooner or later.
Personally I find the country too crowded, with way too many ugly high rises, apartment buildings and shopping malls. It’s kind of turning, IMO, into a Hong Kong like overly built up, shopping dependent, megatropolis. But israelis seem to like rubbing against each other – ie, when they are not complaining about everyone encroaching on everyone else’s space.
Maybe I see it all through my own specially coated lens(es). Don’t mind it at all were others to call it a bit differently. Actually, I kind of wish more Israelis commented here (I mean real ones not the faux Israelis a-la our loyal Hasbara crew cf eee, LLI etc).
But there has been undercurrent building that seculars should try to do their share of “fertilizing” the land, if only because of the fear that they’ll be swept away by the Haredi and the national religious, not to mention the Arabs.
My wife and I are often told half-jokingly that the “demographic balance” in our families is indicative of the country’s future, and that we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
To illustrate, here are the demographics for our two families:
Us (secular – emigrants): 1 child
Brother (secular – centre-left): 2 children
Sister (haredi – Lubavitch): 10 children
Sister (haredi – Shas): 9 children
Sister (national-religious – settler): 6 children
not to mention the Arabs
Us (secular – emigrants): 1 child
Oy! Looking at the rest of the list, no wonder you left.
Shmuel – you guys gotta get yourselves a few more kids pronto! however they come about….
Your statistics is actually shocking, but then most of us find it impossible to imagine having to raise an entire soccer team!
Question: how can anyone afford so many kids? I mean, the piano lessons alone would be bankrupting, not to mention the tennis and swimming and the chess club. What about little league (or equivalent?) or summer camp, baby-sitters and a decent wardrobe for the girls? I guess at least when it comes to English and/or Italian they got you as a tutor and you give them a little discount (not too much, now!). And I assume you’ll help editing those college essays too, right?
You know, here in the US, the way it works with the good [public] schools is that they have effectively drafted the parents (unbeknownst to the latter) as home school co-teachers. ie, the projects are assigned – and homework – in the full knowledge that one or more parents will take charge and do what needs to be done- which, I’m afraid to say is a lot, unless you are content to raise little barbarian Huns (I once got a ribbon for my science project…oops …my daughter’s. And it like so deserved more than a ribbon! what can I say, the competition was mighty stiff. if you need a good one (science project) for your one and only let me know – I still got a treasure trove of ideas somewhere – quite practical and mighty time consuming, the lot of them. Will trade you for Italian lessons? or maybe history,,,or little Talmud so I could flash something clever out for this site now and then?). Having gone through some of this ordeal I keep imagining your poor sister(s) + hubbies trying to keep up with the Asian kiddies in say, the israeli equivalent of Cupertino High School or Lorel in SF. Now that conjures up some funny pictures. really. Oh – and since she is haredi, I almost forgot the Jewish after-school and the Jewish day camps. By my reckoning they each need to earn at least 200K/year just to keep up with the Joneses (I mean the Chengs and Dos and the Ngs).
Sorry, got carried away. Imagination…it’s such a curse.
lol, this is insane. do you know all their names?
Danaa,
Your presumption of a middle-class lifestyle is pretty funny. Only one of the large families has anything resembling a middle-class lifestyle, thanks to the huge benefits they get as settlers (and 1 relatively well-paying government job). The state national-religious education system (hyper-privileged and very well-funded on the settlements) does require a lot of parent input but, fortunately, my sister writes a mean term paper (BTW, have you ever read Marcel Aymé’s Le proverbe – about a father who does his son’s homework). For the piano, tennis, swimming, etc., they do the best they can, and much is state-subsidised, again due to the “strategic” location of their villa.
The other two families are haredi. They live extremely modestly (one actually in poverty – availing themselves, inter alia, of the extensive intracommunal support system). The boys receive a minimal general education (a few hours a day until grade 8), and wouldn’t know a science project if it hit them on the prayer book. After grade 8 they board at a yeshiva and study Talmud full time (assuming they’re not playing hooky). Needless to say, no parental help required. The girls get a high-school education, but nothing fancy, followed by professional training (paid for or heavily subsidised by the government). What’s a piano, and does a tennis have split hooves?
My daughter is about to start the seventh grade, and we seem to have a handle on things so far. I’ll let you know if we need anything, and you can have the Italian and Talmud lessons for free. It’s the least I can do to help you in your heroic struggle against the Ngs (whose Italian and Talmud are probably better than mine anyway).
lol, this is insane. do you know all their names?
They have this little trick, you see. Every time I think I’ve got the kids’ names straight (at least 2 names per child – haredi custom), they go and have more. The kids have already started having kids (although the parents haven’t yet called it quits), which makes it even more confusing for a poor (great-) uncle. My daughter is very proud of the fact that she has 27 first cousins. No one in her class even comes close :-)
I would guess Netanyahu would use this as a reason for more settlements.
Just send the protestors to those thousands of new units he is building in settlements.
He’ll have a even larger settler army then.
What we’ve got here is some honest reporting of whats going on in Israel nowadays and some anti-zionist hate talk.
Dena writes:
the hastily-built towns outside of the center, which served as place-holders to keep Palestinians from reclaiming their land after 1948, populated by state decree by the Jews brought in from Europe’s Displaced Persons camps and by the Arab Jews brought in with little say about their fate, in collusions by despotic leaders from Muslim countries and the nnw Jewish state, soon after 1948.
If my late grandmother which immigrated from Tunisia on 1948 could hear you now, she would have LOL in shock. There is nothing more remote to the truth than referring to her as an “Arab Jew” who was brought in with little say about her fate.
First of all, they were Zionist long before the state of Israel was established. Second, They did not see themselves as Arab at all but rather as belonging to the Jewish people who will some day be lucky enough to return to their homeland.
Finally, they were not brought in to one of these “hastily-built towns outside of the center” but actually ended up in Yaffo.
BTW, There were other reasons for building these towns, you know. Its not all about doing evil to the Palestinians but also about providing shelters for immigrants. As Americans, you should know something about absorbing your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
Dena also writes:
before Netanyahu and the neo-liberals sold off the assets – which had originally been taken over from the Palestinians, between the end of WWI and the 1948.
What would you think of an American complaining about George W. Bush selling the economy’s assets which were taken over from the Native American Indians?
Well, Dena’s statement about Israel sounds just as disconnected from reality. Some of Israel’s land was stolen from the arabs, just as American land was stolen from the Indians but 2 generations before my generation worked VERY HARD in the fields and factories to build up the assets which Israel has today.
All that is not to say we should not bravely look at our past and present, admit our sins and search for reconciliation with the Palestinians.
Also Dena, as an ex-Israeli who probably still has family and friends in Israel, have you ever thought about considering what the Israelis desire and not only what the Palestinians desire? A Just solution to the conflict would be one that would consider the national aspirations of both peoples therefor the only viable solution is still the 2 states solution, no matter how foolishly the current government is trying to bury it.
Welcome Tal,
It’s great to see another pro Israeli voice joining the forum.
What do you mean by “long”? Zionism was only about 70 years old by the time Israel was established. As the Mizrahi in Israel will attest to, most of hem migrated to Israel for messianic reasons, but seeing as Zionism was (and always has been) a secular political movement, they were not Zionists.
How they saw themselves is irrelevant. The designation of Arab can apply to any religion.
Yes we know – though stealing land, stealing resources and ethnic cleasing.
y.
What’s disconnected from reality is your inability to akowledge that back in the days when the US stole anythin from the Native American Indians, such acts were not considered crimes against humanity as they are today. Much like slavery.
It’s truly pathetic listenign to you lame brained Israeli apologists try to hark back to the 19th century and realier to justify the crimes Israel continues to commit to the present day.
And once you’ve done that, you should also be pricipalled enough to pay compensation and reperations for such crimes.
Are you serious? That’s like arguing that a thief or a rapist wants the same thing that their victims desire – to be happy.
A just solution is going to require Israel to make amends for it’s past crimes and return what does not belong to it. Israel is not capable of such justice.
Welcome Tal,
It’s great to see another pro Israeli voice joining the forum.
Thanks but I’ve been posting on and off for a couple of months now
What do you mean by “long”? Zionism was only about 70 years old by the time Israel was established. As the Mizrahi in Israel will attest to, most of hem migrated to Israel for messianic reasons, but seeing as Zionism was (and always has been) a secular political movement, they were not Zionists.
They were in their 20′s when Israel was established. They saw themselves as zionists long before that. The fact that you dismiss their self perceived identity does not change that.
How they saw themselves is irrelevant. The designation of Arab can apply to any religion.
Oh, i get it. Who cares about how they see themselves. Who cares that their ancestors did not come from the Arabian peninsula. Your’e the educated white person from America and you know better.
That’s what we tell the so called “Palestinians” in Israel. We try to explain to them that they are Israeli arabs but they just dont listen.
BTW, There were other reasons for building these towns, you know.
Yes we know – though stealing land, stealing resources and ethnic cleasing.
Right. That’s all we do. Steal.
What’s disconnected from reality is your inability to akowledge that back in the days when the US stole anythin from the Native American Indians, such acts were not considered crimes against humanity as they are today. Much like slavery.
Oh I get it. At the time there wasn’t a law against it so i guess your ancestors are not criminals like mine. Also, there wasn’t a law against genocide at the time of the Nazis so…
It’s truly pathetic listenign to you lame brained Israeli apologists try to hark back to the 19th century and realier to justify the crimes Israel continues to commit to the present day.
What makes you think i’m justifying these crimes? I think its the other way around – You are justifying American crimes by claiming that there was a law against them at the time.
Are you serious? That’s like arguing that a thief or a rapist wants the same thing that their victims desire – to be happy.
It takes an ex-thief-rapist-en-slaver-murderer to know one
A just solution is going to require Israel to make amends for it’s past crimes and return what does not belong to it. Israel is not capable of such justice.
Was America able to return all the land its stole to the native american Indians? Hmmm.. yes. It gave them reserves.
Hmmm.. yes. It gave them reserves.
and citizenship
Palestinians in Israel (Sorry, I meant “Israeli Arabs”) also have citizenship. Its worth just a bit more than what citizenship for blacks in the US before the 60′s was worth… so I guess they have hope…
As for the west bank – I don’t consider it Israel. I hope people there will soon enough become the citizens of a free Palestine.
tal, let’s speak honestly. your earlier context, the one i responded too, was in relation to all the land its stole to the native american Indians, not 10% of the native americans but all the survivors. i’m not talking about ‘palestinians in israel’, you know that. i’m talking about the palestinians whose land was stolen. many are still living as refugees with no rights or votes or representation in the goi, the apartheid government that rules over then.
tal, do you recognize any arab jews or do you think the terms ‘arab’ and ‘jew’ contradict eachother?
Annie, there is a very small elite of intellectuals in Israel (I would send you to the Kedma.co.il site but its in hebrew) who consider themselves arab-jews. Besides that exist very small communities of jews left in some arab countries. I guess some of them would consider themselves arab-jews. Besides these very small numbers, Nada. The terms do not contradict. It’s reality which contradicts.
Annie, regarding the palestinian refugees (actually most of them are sons and daughters of the 48′ refugees) who are not the citizens of Israel – i think that they should be compensated by Israel and some of them should have the choice to become Israeli citizens, all of them would probably have the right to become citizens of Palestine. surely most of them will not be allowed to become Israeli citizens. It makes no sense to establish 2 palestinian nation states (3 if you count Jordan).
It makes no sense to establish 2 palestinian nation states (3 if you count Jordan).
is that like saying It makes no sense to establish a jewish nation (2 if you count the US)?
tal, snarking aside (re your jordan smear) and what does and does not make sense re one or two states
i think that they should be compensated by Israel and some of them should have the choice to become Israeli citizens, all of them would probably have the right to become citizens of Palestine
fine, i would just like to say it is not comparable at all with full citizenship offered by the same people responsible for their ethnic cleansing. no comparison. and it offers nothing in terms of sacrifice for israel, nothing. the land left over already belongs to palestinians so it is not a concession for israel (other than their aspirations for all the land which does not constitute ‘giving up’ because most legal bodies don’t recognize ‘dreams’ or ‘what i intend to steal tomorrow’ as part of someones legal property) it represents no cost to israel. as far as being ‘compensated’ why don’t you give me a ballpark figure in dollar terms what you think jews might accept in exchange for land inside (say…jaffa or haifa), and then we can talk compensation realistically.
If they were only 20 at the time Israel s established, then they woudl have only understood what Zionism meant for about 10 years, so it was anything but LONG beore Israel was created.
Their perceived identity was likely based on juvenile perceptions.
Indeed who cares. I can see myself as the best lay that Angelina Jolie never had, but reality doesn’t conform to that perception.
Neither did the Palestinians.
Every day.
Justifying crimes again are you? Are you still bemoaning the fact that slavery has been abolished , or do you suggest it be re introduced?
Still justifying crimes I see. What is it with you Zionists are your blood lust? There is now, or are you bemoaning the fact that the world stood up to Hitler?
I think you’re a lying sociopath.
1. Those crimes took place centuries ago. At the time they took place, it was seen as legitimate.
2. No one is justifying those crimes. Those that were asacred cannto br rbought back
3. They are today considered illegal and Americans have accepted and are compensating the progeny of the victims
4. Unlike Israel, they are not happening today.
In which case, ‘ll defer to your experise on that matter.
It gave them full citizenship, full rights, paid reperations and owned up to those crimes.
as IU thought, you;re just an apologist for mass murder, ethnic cleasing and crimes against humanity. A true Zionist to the core.
The US did not expell Indians and then deny them return or citizenship.
Only just, but it’s regressing. It’s still apartheid.
But didn’t you just insist that no state has ever returned land it won in a war? And seeing as you;re not the Israeli Prime Minister, it doesn’t really matter what you consider to be Israel.
So which is it Tal? Are they Arab Jews because they perceive themselves as Arab Jews or are they not, becasue you know better?
Why would they not be allowed to become Israeli citizens Tal? Why are you opposed to justice? Woudl you accept your land being stolen for someone else’s benefit? And why woudl that make Israel a Palestinian nation? Didn’t you argue that nations don’t require states to exist?
this may come as a surprise to you but what you think is irrelevant. the choice to accept compensation or return to their country and property is solely the refugees to make. you literal have no legal say in the matter. and they shouldn’t have to become Israeli citizens they should be able to be palestinian citizens any where in palestine fore river to sea.
The German Nazi’s also worked VERY HARD to kick defenseless Jews out of their homes and steal their belongings. They also worked VERY hard to make those concentration camps that they put these pesky Jews in.
The ONLY just solution if for Israel to be disbanded – and returned to the Palestinians and the Jews who lived together before Zionism. Which, in terms of it’s entity, Israel, has been with us for only 60 years – the German Nazis only lasted maybe 15 – so Israel has done well for itself.
Wake up before you lose everything…
The ONLY just solution if for Israel to be disbanded – and returned to the Palestinians and the Jews who lived together before Zionism
OK.
Right after the USA and Australia are disbanded and returned to the native Americans and native Australians.
the German Nazis only lasted maybe 15 – so Israel has done well for itself.
You are lasting more than 200 years so I guess all we have to do is wait enough time and our sins will be whitewashed like yours.
BTW, ever heard of Godwin’s law? The discussion with you is over.
OK.
Right after the USA and Australia are disbanded and returned to the native Americans and native Australians.
tal, your answer implies what’s good enough for america and australia is good enough for israel. is that what you mean?
Sure.
Actually the Palestinians will gain more than what the native american indians and native australians gained – they will gain a sovereign state on part of what was once their land.
the Palestinians will gain more than what the native american indians and native australians gained
and you think a sovereign state on less than 20% of your homeland is worth more than being an equal citizen in all your modern day homeland. sheesh, what are you smokin’ there tal?
wrong. its not a matter of time but a matter of law. given that your an Israeli supporter its understandable you have trouble with the concept.
firstly the native peoples in the americas and Australia have made agreements dealing with the sins and in doing so sadly gave up legal right to pursue further action.
2 the land had to traceable or knowable ownership so it couldn’t be returned unlike the palestinians who know exactly where their stolen lands and homes are.
3 in the US the tribes are recognized as sovriegn entities. you do know the Iroquis nations can travel on their own Iroquis passports
your just another thug trying to excuse thuggery. all of palestine needs to be returned to its legal owners the palestinians.
don’t you mean ‘ 2 generations before my generation worked VERY HARD in the fields and factories to build up some of the assets which Israel has today while much of those assets were stolen from palestinians.’?
why reference the theft at all if you follow it with a declaration that implies the toil of earlier generations earned all they reaped? they didn’t.
No Annie. Its not true that most of these assets were stolen.
The land of Israel/Palestine is very poor in natural resources including land and water, so we didn’t have much to steal from. Israel’s high-tech Industry, Agriculture, Bio-tech, Science etc. are our own achievements.
Reading the comments on this site I wonder why is it that intelligent people feel they need to portray their rivals as pure evil instead of pointing out the evil deeds and honestly acknowledging the good deeds.
pure evil? don’t jump the shark on me tal, i don’t think you’re pure evil nor do i think israel, israelis or jews are pure evil. why dial it up when we can just discuss it?
so we didn’t have much to steal from.
it isn’t past tense tal, do you mean ‘so we don’t have much to steal from’? shall we discuss water or the quarries in the west bank for which there would be a seriously challenged construction industry for israel today if they couldn’t steal from (which is against international law btw) or the agro business in the WB 1/2 owned by the goi. let’s rock, take your pick.
You’re usually fair and honest, annie, but many of the people here express themselves in the most hateful way when they talk about Israelis and/or Zionists. Do i have to give you examples? Just read a comment above you remarking the fact that we have done even better than the Nazis.
No Annie. Its not true that most of these assets were stolen.
try not to strawman me tal, let’s be honest w/eachother.
just answer the question tal. don’t jump the shark and pretend i said ‘most’, that is not the conversation we’re in tho it might be a worthwhile one in the future.
Sorry, I thought you said most.
But even “much” is exaggerated. Israel’s achievements reflect in its GNP which has little to do with land and water resources,
tal, why are you diverting the topic to what ‘many people do’ on this thread and ramp up the dial w/inflammatory ‘pure evil’ discourse in the middle of discussing some of the assets which Israel has today?
you want us or me to “acknowledging the good deeds” of israelis while discussing the nakba? or the theft of palestinian lands? or the occupation? or what? let’s get back to the topic tal. do you or do you not acknowledge generations before your generation worked VERY HARD in the fields and factories to build up only some of the assets which Israel has today while much of those assets were stolen from palestinians ?
or are you going to stick w/this lingo the assets israel has today they have because previous generations worked hard for them?
I think that Israel would have been doing financially even better without these stolen resources from the west bank.
Its the immorality of these acts which we should be discussing. I agree that its disgusting.
thanks for the acknowledgement of your misread, appreciated.
so water’s like..no big deal? it would sure as hell reflect in the GNP if it israel had to friggin PAY for it. do you think we are idiots? what about the guarries? if israel had to pay market value for all the construction stones do you think it might impact their GDP, or when it comes for free that doesn’t really…matter.
what percentage of the land belonged to jews in 1947 tal. before we start arguing about much and most. and what about all those factories and industries built on palestinian land in the WB, no impact on the GDP? that doesn’t make sense tal.
annie, its beginning to sound like im on trial with you here. You cant force your logic on me. You BELIEVE that much of Israel’s assets are stolen. I BELIEVE that most of its assets (reflected in its GNP) were honestly achieved in hard work and brains.
We can’t force ANY logic on you, Tal. You’re irrational. You want to believe it’s OK to pick up a davidka, run out a whole village, bulldoze it over, build a Jews-only gated community and then demand largess from the United States so you can afford to run your bloated colonial enterprise.
Wrong. a it was funded by other countries. and anything based of stolen prtoperty is forever tainted as without the theft it would have never happened. Israel has no good deeds. 90% of Israel was stolen.
you can work hard and use brains ans still not have your assets considered yours if the investment that funded them came from theft. no no thinks that Israel didn’t work hard to make the most of the resources it stole. but that they worked hard and used intellignece doesn’t change the fact that those achievments happened because of the theft.
“might shake foundations of occupation”?
Prediction : Israel will not end occupation until Palestine is an independent state.
References
1) The Declaration for the Establishment of the state of Israel. “THE STATE OF ISRAEL … it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel;”
2) Deuteronomy 20:15
3) link to wp.me
Tal,
Don’t be shocked but your Tunisian grandmother really is an arab jew and I just don’t understand how you can avoid this fact – especially in Apartheid Ashkenazim-ruled israel.
Arab jews are the original/first jews, nothing to be ashamed of and everything to be proud.
Apartheid Ashkenazim-ruled israel.
What have you been smoking? Too much Anti-Zionist Hasbara stuff.
Also I see that like your buddy above, you are also a wise white American who knows better than my grandparents about their cultural and genetic identity.
So like ‘sober’ me up Tal – who the heck then is ruling Apartheid israel? The Iranian jews? The Moroccan jews? Iraqi jews? Yemeni jews? Ethiopian jews? The Palestinian jews?
Kinda looks like you should be smoking what I’m smoking actually: a big fat cigar called FACTSOFREALITY!
the GOI rules the state of Israel. Some of them are of Ashkenazi origins and some are Sfaradaim origins.
Sure the Ashkenazim have more of the resources. Kinda reminds of WASPs in the USA. Remind me, Taxi, how many non protestant presidents in America did you have? like 1 right?
Your example is moot. Go get a ‘constitution’ before you blahblah about America.
And thanks for admitting the ruling elites of Apartheid israel are Ashkenazim.
Sure the Ashkenazim have more of the resources. Kinda reminds of WASPs in the USA.
you don’t say, is that reflected in forbes 500?
This phenomenon is occurring pretty well everywhere except that in some countries it is ‘the’ government, although still not government itself. One can speculate on far it will go before it settles, not as far as some might hope, perhaps, but still a significant distance. An optimist might see it as the silver lining of globalization, a growing sense of unity and interdependence among ordinary peoples.
The Israeli economy is pretty fragile. There is an interesting piece here in Haaretz this morning illustrating the extent to which the Israeli economy feeds off the Palestinians. (Don’t read the comments below the piece many of which are disgusting. I sometimes wonder if anti-Semitism isn’t in part a mirror of the way some Jews look at the rest of us.)
Of course these protests are to be welcomed, but U.S. history offers lots of examples of protests and even powerful movements among less well-off members of the favored race that left the system largely intact, with them still under the heel of the ruling class, because at the crucial moment they chose whiteness over freedom.
The reality is that Israel is not immune to the global financial and economic crisis we are facing. In fact, like Egypt was, Israel may be particularly vulnerable to rising food prices etc. because of it’s heavy reliance on the US dollar.
The rising price of food in Egypt was due to the fact that Egypt is reliant on US aid and the US dollar is falling in value. The US is now exporting inflation and it is leading to risign prices everywhere.
Bibi is busy making a new list for a new speech, in which he will lay the blame on the door step of the Palestians, Iranians, leftists and other various forces of evil, and hope to turn the mobs energy to his use.
What sickens me about this is that the average Israeli has life far, far better than, say the average resident of Detroit or New Orleans.
Such pampered, spoiled brats. You know sooner or later the government is really going to panic and deal with these protests the same way they deal with other “threats to the Jewish state.”
I think the best analogy here is the with the war in Iraq. American public opinion did not sour because of a sudden pang of conscience about the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. The opinion changed because it was too expensive. Likewise, the quality of life on the West Bank or Gaza appears to not interest the average Israeli who has bought the line that Gazans are rich despite having twice the unemployment of the Great Depression, cf. also the AIPAC talking point that the West Bank economy grew at 16%. Their own quality of life is a different story.
Because we do care and since Hasbara is tailored to the audience we get people trying to fluff both the Israeli and Occupied Territory economies well past any sense of reality. The latter gets tactically changed when discussing BDS when the Hasbarists get suddenly concerned for Palestinian welfare.
What this says is BDS should go full stem ahead. The Israelis want economic security and the Palestinians want dignity. Furthermore, the Palestinians appear to be willing to sacrifice the former for the latter. I come to this conclusion because BDS comes from Palestinian civil society and not us and they know the costs of the strategy. This also parallels the Egyptian protests where they know that getting rid of Mubarek will create — temporarily they hope — more economic instability.
The last dynamic is another people who also lack empathy, the Christian Zionists. A member of my tour group was disgusted with the “socialistic” support of the Haredi. I saw and noticed the doctor’s strike while in Israel in April, but no one else in my group noticed. The story just hit American shores this weekend. Jewish American supporters of Israel have always been tolerant of socialism in Israel but the Christian Americans hate it with a passion. (This despite the incipient socialism found in the book of Acts where believers shared all their possessions with each other.) What this means is Netanyahu will not get Christian support to prop him up here.
Again, this marks a real opportunity to make occupation extremely expensive. The Israeli economy is in tatters and the Christians in the U.S. will not come to the rescue this time not only because of the lack of empathy but we also have our own serious economic problems. Thus, BDS may be able to push the Israeli public opinion against occupation not because they necessarily care but because it’s too expensive just like American public opinion turned against the Iraq war.
And what our aging white men in government have failed to understand is that it’s called social media.
Tehran Times
Thanks, NickJOCW.
Good article.
The reason why rents are so high in Tel Aviv is because too many people want to live there.
But rachel, don’t they deserve a discount because of their “genetic markers”?
Nice to know that capitalism trumps Judaism, I guess.
What makes you think rachel knows that there’s a difference, Mooser? She doesn’t act like she thinks there is one.
“What makes you think rachel knows that there’s a difference, Mooser? She doesn’t act like she thinks there is one.”
You know, I think you’re right.
The reason why rents are so high in Tel Aviv is because too many people want to live there.
Economic genius. Not.
Dena Shunra,
Thanks.
So your share the concern for the future between both Jews and Palestinians alike?
Does it sound realistic that these protests will lead to the founding of bi-national state? Does the author see anything that indicates that -I assume she reads Hebrew. The protests are very significant, for me as an Israeli citizen and I do support them fully. However, it started as he call for social reform, and any attempts form the political movements to swindle it into the change of national identity or the future of Israel as Jewish state will reduce the public support significantly.
will reduce the public support significantly.
you mean totally.
True that and New Israel foundation support is extremely destructive.
Why are we supposed to care, again? It’s not like you’re going to stop bulldozing homes or dismantle any checkpoints or let enough food or medicine through your Warsaw/Gaza blockade. Who cares? The Knesset will just pass another law suppressing dissent, your Supreme Court will make a half-assed ruling against it, that will go completely ignored and you’ll go right back to business as usual.
Nothing changes in Israel.
This sounds analogous to Thomas Franks’ “What’s the Matter with Kansas?”. According to Franks, in Kansas religious identity (evangelical and conservative Catholic) and the politics behind it kept many Kansans from acting in their own economic self-interest. At least how Dimadok describes it the Israelis are the same here where protection of their Jewish identity keeps them from truly acting in their economic self-interest. Recently we found out that this effect is not absolute as shown by the NY-26 race (which is only marginally less red than Kansas). Once they saw that the ideology takes away their Social Security it can change even the most rabid ideologue. Identity means very little when you cannot put food on the table or house your family.
Correction: I meant Medicare rather than Social Security but the latter continues to be the so-called third rail of politics.
*would be interesting to see what Pro-Israel Republicans think of Israelis that want a “welfare state”
*curious what the Free Market Republicans would say about the Israeli gov’t control of 93% of the land
*curious how the Republican anti-immigration types in the USA see the huge proportion of European immigrants to Israel as part of the growth/ housing situation/ increase in cost of living. May that lesson be extended …
of course they wouldn’t criticize Israeli gov’t policies that brought about this mess.
i confess that i am feeling a tiny bit of schadenfreude in this latest development. the irony of all of this is that this is a problem that Israeli gov’t policies created in trying to control the population.
As Israel discovered when its military was in Gaza the cost of controlling a population is too costly.
“May that lesson be extended …”
is clearly not where i intended it/ typed it. not sure how that happened?!
From Haaretz:
The long-term prospects are not good – an excellent prospect!
I don’t really follow the logic that says these protests will lead to a single state. That seems a bit of a leap. Why would a protest against the lack of affordable housing in Israel lead Jewish Israelis to stop being Zionists? I think the best we realistically can hope for is that something might click in the minds of those protesters, connecting the fact that successive Israeli governments have failed to provide affordable housing for Israelis in Israel because they have blown $20bn subsidizing cheap housing for Israelis colonizing land beyond Israel’s recognized borders.
That would be a fantastic outcome. However, I can’t be optimistic about that at all.
It is hard to wrap my head around the idea that someone living in an apartheid society would devote energy to protesting on behalf of bohemians who can’t afford apartments in their favorite posh neighborhoods.
anonymouscomments: “but the big hope is this…. they start to look at the costs of occupation, the costs of perpetual war, and the massive subsidies the illegal settlers get. they may not end the occupation for palestinian’s rights, but out of pure self-interest they may soon turn on the insane, costly occupation (with growing BDS representing another self-interested financial motivator).”
American tax-payers are financing a huge chunk of Israel’s occupation. Israeli’s may think they’re paying for it but they have yet to come to grips with the real costs.
If my tax dollars(meager as they are) were not supporting Apartheid, I’d move on. Not really, because we have yet to face the decades of the damage our tax dollars have created. It’s really quite simple if you think about it. No need to go on and on.
Hej!