Arab Sources: Hamas on UN bid

Hamas has issued a statement today regarding Palestine’s UN bid. Its interest for me is in the way Hamas describes what it thinks is the Palestinian national consensus. It seems that Hamas’ only substantive objection to going to the UN is its own lack of involvement in the bid and the emphasis by Abbas that the appeal to the UN is part of the negotiations process.

My translation follows. I have changed typographic features of the statement to highlight Hamas’ notion of national consensus.

On the application by the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah for membership of Palestine as a state in the United Nations

Proceeding from the national political program that has been agreed upon by all the Palestinian national force:

  • the establishment of a Palestinian state with real sovereignty on the lines of the fourth of Huzairan/June 1967,
  • Jerusalem as its capital
  • the return of the refugees
  • the dismantling of settlements
  • without recognizing the Zionist entity.

We in the Hamas movement support any effort or political maneuvers that afford international support and solidarity for

  • the right of our people to liberation and self determination
  • the establishment of a fully sovereign state
  • the achievement of Palestinian national rights
  • and that result in the condemnation of the Zionist entity, the rejector of our rights, and reveal its true outlook.

But political maneuvers cannot be at the expense of any of our national rights.

Unfortunately, the application by the brothers in the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah for membership of Palestine as a state in the United Nations has a unilateral character that is far removed from the Palestinian national consensus. Further, it does not come from within the context of a coherent agreed upon national liberationist strategy. It is, however, an extension of the [peace] process and its perspective of insistance on the ideology of negotiations is far removed from the choice of resistance and “owning the power cards” [position of strength].

We emphasize our firm conviction that resistance in its essential sense, and peripherally all forms of political mass struggle, is the true way to liberate our land, to gain our rights, and to establish a Palestinian state with genuine sovereignty.

The urgent need of our people is the actual liberation of our land, so as to establish upon it a truly independent sovereign state of Palestine. [The urgency] is not for continued discussion about a state that does not exist on the ground. [The urgency] is not for the continued preoccupation with symbolic steps with limited impact and [associated] mixed results that are confounded with some risks.

In this occasion we appeal to our brothers in the leadership of the Authority in Ramallah, the brothers in the Fateh movement, and all the Palestinian forces and factions, for dialogue and an in depth political review. With the aim of achieving a strategy that is Palestinian, patriotic, struggle-like, and agreed upon nationally. We will muster for its foundations all of “our power cards” [advantages, positions of strength], principally resistance, to be truly ready to accomplish the right to self-determination, and liberate our land and our national rights from the Zionist occupation, with God’s permission.

Islamic Resistance Movement-Hamas
Media Office
Saturday, 19 Shawwal 1432 H
Approved September 17 / September 2011

 

حول تقدم السلطة الفلسطينية في رام الله بطلب عضوية فلسطين كدولة في الأمم المتحدة

انطلاقاً من البرنامج السياسي الوطني الذي توافقت عليه مجمل القوى الوطنية الفلسطينية، بإقامة دولة فلسطينية ذات سيادة حقيقية على خطوط الرابع من حزيران/يونيو 1967، عاصمتها القدس، مع عودة اللاجئين، وتفكيك المستوطنات، دون الاعتراف بالكيان الصهيوني، فإننا في حركة حماس مع أي جهد أو حراك سياسي يحقق تأييداً ودعماً دولياً لحق شعبنا في التحرر وتقرير المصير، وإقامة الدولة الفلسطينية كاملة السيادة، وإنجاز الحقوق الوطنية الفلسطينية، ويؤدي إلى إدانة الكيان الصهيوني الرافض لحقوقنا ويكشف موقفه الحقيقي، على ألا يكون هذا الحراك السياسي على حساب أيّ من حقوقنا الوطنية.

إن تقدم الإخوة في السلطة الفلسطينية في رام الله بطلب عضوية فلسطين كدولة في الأمم المتحدة يأتي بصورة منفردة – للأسف – بعيداً عن التوافق الوطني الفلسطيني، كما أنه لا يأتي ضمن إستراتيجية وطنية نضالية متكاملة متفق عليها، وإنما كامتداد لمسيرة التسوية، وفي سياق الإصرار على نهج المفاوضات بعيداً عن خيار المقاومة وامتلاك أوراق القوة.

إننا نؤكد على قناعتنا الراسخة أن المقاومة بشكل أساسي، وإلى جانبها كل أشكال العمل والنضال السياسي والجماهيري، هي الطريق الحقيقي لتحرير أرضنا، وانتزاع حقوقنا، وإقامة الدولة الفلسطينية ذات السيادة الحقيقية.

إن حاجة شعبنا الملحّة هي تحرير أرضه فعلياً، ليقيم عليها دولة فلسطين ذات السيادة والاستقلال الحقيقي، وليس استمرار الحديث عن دولة لا وجود لها على الأرض، واستمرار الانشغال بخطوات رمزية محدودة التأثير، بل ملتبسة ببعض المخاطر.

إننا بهذه المناسبة ندعو الإخوة في قيادة السلطة في رام الله، والإخوة في حركة فتح والقوى والفصائل الفلسطينية كافة، إلى حوار ومراجعة سياسية معمقة، بهدف الوصول إلى إستراتيجية وطنية فلسطينية نضالية نتوافق عليها وطنياً، ونستجمع على أرضيتها كل أوراق القوة، وعلى رأسها المقاومة، لنكون بالفعل قادرين على إنجاز حق تقرير المصير، وانتزاع أرضنا وحقوقنا الوطنية من الاحتلال الصهيوني بإذن الله.

حركة المقاومة الإسلامية ـ حماس
المكتب الإعلامي
السبت 19 شوال 1432 هـ
الموافق 17 أيلول/سبتمبر 2011 م

About Simone Daud

A Palestinian academic. A progressive internationalist with a wholly secular outlook. Meticulously pacifist and a militantly anti-reactionary perspective. An interest in progressive advocacy spanning gay rights, refugee rights.
Posted in Israel/Palestine | Tagged ,

{ 177 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. pabelmont says:

    As I read the statement, Hamas doers not envision Palestine ever signing a treaty with Israel. Thus, rejection of negotiation. Struggle. War? Sharing land?

    On the other hand, Hamas desires discussion among the whole Palestinian people (internal negotiation, presumably without struggle). And if the whole people as-such determine to negotiate with Israel?

    • Simone Daud says:

      well it accepts that a state of Palestine be established in the 1967 borders. That this be done without negotiations, and that sovereignty be imposed by Palestinians.

      The idea is that negotiations in the future happen between two states and not between a state and an occupied peoples. I think that much of Fateh agrees with this. That is bilateral negotiations while occupied are useless. There is a need for sovereignty and then we negotiate.

      But there is a consensus on the borders.

      • pabelmont says:

        This I missed somehow. So initially, two states, but no corridor from Gaza to West Bank and no corridor from Israel to wailing wall (or to any other place in the then-previously-occupied Territories. And THEN negotiations about these things and settlements (if any then still stand) and so forth and so on.

        • eee says:

          Pabelmont,

          No, they do not want negotiations afterward, they clearly say:
          “without recognizing the Zionist entity” (the last bullet point in the first list)

          Simone is not correct that Hamas accepts the 67 borders. It sees it as a first step to get rid of the “Zionist Entity” and not as the solution.

        • Cliff says:

          The only side ‘getting rid of’ the other, is Israel with it’s constant colonization of Palestinian land and apartheid practices.

          No rational person (basically anyone who believes people should be judged on the content of their character and not on what religion they are, like Zionist Jews) would accept a State that only exists such as it is because it ethnically cleansed the majority population AND CONTINUES to exist (PRESENT-DAY) such as it is, through the ethnic cleansing of the remnants of said population AND through their subjugation.

          Hamas does accept the 67 borders. You don’t WANT them to, because it’s an EXCUSE for you to keep stealing land while PRETENDING to be opposed to the settlements.

          Given how racist you are eee, your act isn’t convincing.

        • eee says:

          Cliff,

          Enough with the rambling nonsense. Since most Jews accept Israel, according to your view, most Jews are not rational. Now that is not rational.

          Anyone can read what Hamas are saying and judge for themselves. They are clearly saying that they cannot live in peace with Israel. They are clearly saying they want the ROR before there is a final deal. But good to know that you endorse their position.

        • annie says:

          No, they do not want negotiations afterward, they clearly say:
          “without recognizing the Zionist entity”

          eee, if i am not mistaken, like israel, hamas’s points signal this is the position from which they wish to negotiate.

          the establishment of a Palestinian state with real sovereignty on the lines of the fourth of Huzairan/June 1967,
          Jerusalem as its capital
          the return of the refugees
          the dismantling of settlements
          without recognizing the Zionist entity.

          you might ask yourself how is so different from israel’s position going into negotiation? did israel negotiate when it expanded outside that border? did israel negotiate annexing parts of jerusalem in the west bank? did israel negotiate rejecting the democratically elected representatives of the palestinian people? did israel negotiate an ROR solely for jews.

          It sees it as a first step to get rid of the “Zionist Entity” and not as the solution.

          as a supporter of a state whose escalation of settlement expansion threatens the existence of ever having two sovereign states i’m afraid the first step has already been taken, by israel.

        • Cliff says:

          Enough with the rambling nonsense. Since most Jews accept Israel, according to your view, most Jews are not rational. Now that is not rational.

          I’m not rambling. I’m getting right to the point.

          Israel is actively ‘getting rid of’ Palestinians through constant colonization of the OT. Israel is practicing apartheid. Not Hamas. What Hamas says in WORDS, Israel trumps in action.

          You’re an idiot.

          As I said, any rational person who meets the criteria I listed above (judges people equally, and not by whether they are Jewish; judges actions based on basic human decency and fairness; judges actions based on the rule of law; etc.) would not be a Zionist BY DEFINITION.

          If that means most Jews are irrational (according to YOU, because I said ZIONIST Jews not JEWS in general) then SO BE IT.

          I’m a normal guy. I don’t know any Jews or Muslims or Palestinians. I am an American and an Indian. I am a minority. I am a liberal and I believe colonialism is WRONG. I don’t give a DAMN whether you are Jewish or a Klingon. It means nothing to me. I got into this conflict organically from one moment to the next. I can’t help that it happened that way. We all have our paths.

          Don’t involve me in your schizoid thinking, eee. I don’t want to be part of your hysteria.

          Anyone can read what Hamas are saying and judge for themselves. They are clearly saying that they cannot live in peace with Israel. They are clearly saying they want the ROR before there is a final deal. But good to know that you endorse their position.

          Israel doesn’t live in peace with the Palestinians. Israel steals and colonizes from the Palestinians. Israel is SUBJUGATING and occupying the Palestinians.

          Anyone can see that and will, if they are rational and form their politics through fairness and basic human decency – will conclude that ACTIONS are louder than words.

          Especially since your actions are 40+ years long and CONTINUING.

          You are not a victim. The Palestinians are the ones under occupation. NOT YOU.

        • annie says:

          They are clearly saying they want the ROR before there is a final deal.

          eee, they already have ror. yes, they are clearly saying they are not relinquishing it prior to negotiations (obviously). why should they? what is israel relinquishing prior to negotiations? anything?

        • eee says:

          No Annie, what I am saying is that they want the implementation of the return before they start negotiating. That is very different. They not only want the implementation of the return before there is a final deal, they want it even before negotiations start. It is quite clear also that they don’t plan negotiating with Israel ever.

        • kapok says:

          Negotiations. Tripe likes. Rich from a head that runs the table. Hamas knows the score: In order to negotiate from a position of strength, the default, one must be strong. Duh. By strong I don’t mean beefcake or quips. They must be armed and dangerous, just like you, tripe.

        • DBG says:

          Cliff, pick up a history book. you don’t have a clue about what is going on in the ME or what has happened there.

        • eee says:

          Annie,

          What are you doing? Are you trying to justify Hamas’ position? Doesn’t that make you a progressive except when it comes to Hamas?

        • eee says:

          Kapok,

          Hamas are armed and dangerous. They killed 1000 Israelis in the second intifada much more than any other of Israel’s enemies since 1973. Did that help their negotiating position? No, it made it worse. The Israeli public is not willing to make any concessions to Hamas and will support Cast Lead type operations in the future.

          They probably already have rockets that they can hit Tel-Aviv with. Does that make their negotiating position better? No.

        • kapok says:

          When they have armored cars that can snatch away children in the middle of the night from your side of the fence, get back to us, k?

        • Hamas killed a much smaller number than 1000.

          The largest impact of terror was by Al Aqsa Martyrs, which Abbas and the PA was successful in convincing to renounce violence and turn in their weapons.

        • Shingo says:

          Cliff, pick up a history book. you don’t have a clue about what is going on in the ME or what has happened there.

          DBG, every time you give that advice, you end up looking like an idiot.

          When are you going to learn.

        • Shingo says:

          Stop being an idiot eee,

          Hamas’ negotiating position is not better than Fatah’s. Israel is not capable of a peace agreement and don ‘t want one.

        • Simone Daud says:

          It’s a strategy that has found universal acceptance among Palestinians.

          It just does not make sense to bargain over things without having clear property rights.

        • hophmi says:

          ” What are you doing ? Are you trying to
          justify Hamas’ position? ”

          eee, most people here are one with Hamas’s position. Remember, they are more Palestinian than the Palestinians are. They want an end to Israel just like Hamas does.

        • Hostage says:

          Anyone can read what Hamas are saying and judge for themselves.
          The same thing that happened after the war between Japan and Russia. Both states agreed that the state of war had ended, but refused to conclude a formal agreement which would result in belligerent recognition of the other government. If you read the entire chapter in the FRUS on the negotiation of resolution 242, you’ll find several discussions in which the US and others proposed that same approach:

          In terms of the modalities, he [US Secretary of State Rusk] wanted to point out that there were many situations in which there was peace but no peace treaty. For example, between Japan and the USSR.

          link to history.state.gov

          Israel obviously accepted it, because Eban was insulted when the US subsequently brought-up the subject of a formal treaty. I’m certain Israel will not recognize a state of Palestine or sign a valid final agreement after the refugees have been repatriated in accordance with Article 8 of the Geneva Convention in any event, so what are you shreying about?

        • “They are clearly saying they want the ROR before there is a final deal.”

          Duh! Now what’s wrong with that?

        • “Hamas killed a much smaller number than 1000.
          The largest impact of terror was by Al Aqsa Martyrs,”

          Don’t tell this to eee, Witty. He likes to think all Gazans are to blame.

        • Hostage says:

          “They are clearly saying they want the ROR before there is a final deal.”

          Let’s all read what the official commentary on Article 8 of the Fourth Geneva Convention has to say about non-renunciation together once again. It prohibits the local officials from concluding any special agreement with the occupying power which might renounce the protections of the civilian population contained in Article 49(6) against measures of forced eviction or deportation. It explains that the object of Article 8 is:

          to ensure that protected persons in all cases without exception enjoy the protection of the Convention until they are repatriated. It is the last in the series of articles designed to make that protection inviolable

        • Citizen says:

          eee, assuming “most Jews” accept Israel, the Israel they accept is coded, by Witty for example, as “Israel as Israel.” This means a state where Jews have more rights than non-Jews, that is, the current state of Israel.
          OTOH, HAMAS does not accept such a state. Why should it?

      • Redruin says:

        From your translation I got the impression Hamas is not very enthusiastic about the Palestinian bid for statehood. By adding qualifiers and insisting resistance is the means by which a Palestinian state will be secured, Hamas is putting itself on the sidelines. Bodes poorly for Palestinians in the future. There cannot be two leaders for one nation.

        • Simone Daud says:

          Hamas has lost a lot electorally. And sure outside the US where you have parliamentary systems there are many centers of power.

          Hamas sees Gaza as the model for the West Bank.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Well, it sounds like Israel is planning on porting their “success” in Gaza as a model for the West Bank, too, in reaction to the UN vote…

      • Charon says:

        I have to agree with Hamas in that regard. Never quite understood how anybody could take Israel seriously as a partner for ‘peace’ when they continue to build settlements (which have accelerated since Oslo). Remaining occupied will lead to continued resistance. Pointing fingers at this resistance as a reason to stall the process is ridiculous when the occupation is the reason for it (if the resistance is real and not staged by elements within Israel).

        Israel brings too many irrational pre-conditions into negotiation believing it is the Palestinians who need to concede more land and make the sacrifices. From a rational negotiating standpoint, the pre-1967 borders including EJ is Palestinian land. Israel has to make sacrifices if they want to keep that land. The borders are variable but what the Palestinians already have is constant. I do not understand why people don’t get this.

      • Hostage says:

        That is bilateral negotiations while occupied are useless. . . .

        . . . and pointless. Any treaty agreement obtained under threat or use of force is null and void at its conclusion in accordance with article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. link to untreaty.un.org

        Article 8 of the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the local officials from concluding any special agreement with the occupying power which might renounce the protections of the civilian population contained in Article 49(6) against measures of forced eviction or deportation. The official commentary on the article explains that the object of Article 8 is:

        to ensure that protected persons in all cases without exception enjoy the protection of the Convention until they are repatriated. It is the last in the series of articles designed to make that protection inviolable

        The Palestinians leadership can’t agree to cede any occupied territory to Israel until after the refugees are repatriated and the occupation has been brought to an end. A just settlement of the refugee problem in Palestine can’t validate crimes against humanity or war crimes prohibited by Article 49(6), including expulsion or deportation.

        FYI Jordan was one of the signatories of the armistice agreements and a High contracting party to the Geneva Convention exercising jurisdiction over the territory when the most recent conflict began in 1967. The refugees that were created as a result of the conflicts and subsequent occupation precluded Jordan from concluding its own peace treaty without the addition of a safeguarding clause regarding the status of any territory that came under Israeli military control in 1967. See Article 3(2) of the Jordanian-Israeli Peace Treaty. link to kinghussein.gov.jo

        Any final treaty agreement with the Palestinians is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law. See Article 53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties link to untreaty.un.org

        So there is no prospect of negotiating a valid settlement containing the sort of concessions envisioned by Zionists during an occupation. That’s why they have always delayed the withdrawal of their armed forces and the conclusion of a valid one.

  2. Walid says:

    Simone D., other than for his well-known stance on non-violence, can you say where Mustafa Barghoutti fits on all these goings on especially at the UN?

      • Walid says:

        “organizing protests as we speak.”

        The Jazeera article showed the Palestinians holding up a huge poster demanding their rights under UNGA 194. It’s timely, poetic or something since Palestine’s application at the UN, if accepted, would make it member number 194.

        Back to Barghoutti, what are your feelings about the man? I’m picking your brain here to get some insider news about him.

        • Simone Daud says:

          I take the opportunity of extending the prohibition on Lashon Hara to this Barghoutti.

          I’m not impressed by him. Though usually I am not impressed by individuals. I like institutions/political parties/groups. For instance there isn’t a single activist in the US that can be more impressive than say al-awda.

          But the more we have of independent thinking individuals willing to criticize the better.

        • Walid says:

          Thanks, Simone D.

        • GalenSword says:

          FYI, lashon hara is a sort of butchered Yiddish-Modern Israeli Hebrew-Yinglish form. Proper MIH would say the phrase לשון הרע as ləshon hara/leshon hara. In construct the qamatz (קָמַץ) must be reduced to a shwa.

  3. Potsherd2 says:

    It seems like Hamas remembers who actually won the last Palestinian elections.

    • Hostage says:

      It seems like Hamas remembers who actually won the last Palestinian elections.

      Abbas won the last election for President. Hamas won 45 percent of the popular vote, while Fatah won 41 percent. It was an election for the PLC, not a dictatorship.

      Hamas launched an extralegal preemptive attack on the PA’s Security Services in Gaza. FYI, former presidential candidate Mustafa Barghouti reminds in an interview with Maan News Agency that both the caretaker cabinet in the West Bank and the de facto cabinet in Gaza are illegal. link to palestinianbasiclaw.org

      • Potsherd2 says:

        But the election for the presidency came before the parliamentary election, iirc.

        Given that that Fatah faction of the PA had been in the process of preparing an illegal coup to oust Hamas from power, I’m not inclined to call the actions of Hamas “extralegal.”

        • Hostage says:

          Given that that Fatah faction of the PA had been in the process of preparing an illegal coup to oust Hamas from power, I’m not inclined to call the actions of Hamas “extralegal.”

          Then you are not very familiar with the Basic Law of 2003 and its amendments:

          At the same time, the enactment and ratification of this law by the Legislative Council does spring from the fact that the Palestine Liberation Organization is the sole and legitimate representative of the Arab Palestinian people.

          link to palestinianbasiclaw.org

          BTW, Hamas opposed the Basic Law both before and after the elections. In addition, there is ample evidence that, despite the fact that 1.3 billion dollars of PLO assets were frozen as a result of past Hamas terror attacks, Abbas tried to form a government coalition with the faction for about a year and a half.

          The Vanity Fair article illustrates that he ignored several calls from the US State Department to withdraw confidence and hold new elections – and that there was no Fatah-wide conspiracy against Hamas. Then as now, Hamas refused to explicitly renounce terror and worked to alienate the sources that were funding essential public services. Then as now, they functioned as a boat anchor and tried to drag down the PLO program for a 2ss. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but let’s stop pretending that they were committed to working within the system or embraced secular democratic ideals over their religious ones. The Wikileaks documents revealed that Israeli officials had said they would be happy if Hamas seized control of Gaza, because then it could be treated as a hostile state.

  4. homingpigeon says:

    I must say that this UN statehood bid for Palestine is one of the most bewildering situations I have seen on the conflict.

    On the one hand we observe that Israel, the United States, American TV, talking heads, American politicians, and other members of the pro-Israel Amen chorus are against it. Many people who wish to acknowledge Palestinian rights are for it. On a superficial level the case serves as a dividing line between “pro-Israel” and “anti-Israel” factions.

    Yet on the other hand it seems that implicit in UN recognition of Palestinian bantustan statehood would be Arab recognition and acceptance of Israel, a step towards the two state solution, a step away from the one country solution, a step towards relieving Israel of the “Palestinian demographic bomb,” a step away from the Right of Return, and overall a step in the interests of the Zionist state. And within the Palestinian community there seems to be a notable lack of enthusiasm, not just from Hamas but from those who take a dim view of the Palestinian Authority.

    This whole mini statehood idea seems such a step backwards and such a capitulation for the Palestinians that I cannot see what possible advantage there is in it. (We know that “returning to the negotiating table” is code for “let us swindle and outwit you some more,” so that is an insincere suggestion made by people who are not friends of the Palestinians).

    So is the pro-Israel camp taking an objectively anti-Israeli position while the pro-Palestinian camp is taking and objectively anti-Palestinian position?

    Oh Guide to the Perplexed, where are you? Some one help me.

    • Simone Daud says:

      First a majority of Palestinians seem to support the UN bid

      link to maannews.net

      Look imagine that you are negotiating over anything and the ownership of that thing is disputed. WHo get’s what in that case? It’s not clear. What this UN bid is doing is defining ownership as Palestinian. This way any future negotiations will be on that basis. Each inch of land Israel wants to keep has a price.

      If you were Israel would you want clarification who who owns the occupied territories before we begin negotiations? Certainly not.

      • eee says:

        The UN bid also defines what is not Palestinian. And anything beyond the 67 line is not Palestinian and owned by Israel.

        • GalenSword says:

          Poland was still Poland even when occupied by the Hohenzollern Empire, the Czarist Empire, and the Habsburg Empire.

        • Shmuel says:

          The UN bid also defines what is not Palestinian. And anything beyond the 67 line is not Palestinian and owned by Israel.

          This is precisely the impression it gives “outside” – regardless of internal, Palestinian impressions. Which is why any supporter of a 2ss (theoretically including the “honest broker”) would be mad not to embrace it, and the implications of rejecting the bid should be crystal-clear: No interest in a two-state solution of any kind.

          It feels like the Arafat gambit that unravelled at Camp David. He had given the Israelis and the Americans the impression (without Palestinian popular support) that he could deliver a 2ss without ROR. When it came to actually signing away that right (Barak’s “end of conflict” clause), he balked, knowing full well that he could not pull it off. Abbas is a little safer, because the chances of ever signing anything are far more remote today, but the entire move strikes me as counterproductive in terms of the education of westerners regarding the history and core issues of the conflict. This would seem to be at cross purposes with the strategy of BDS.

        • annie says:

          eee doesn’t see this as any kind of concession. he points out defines what is not Palestinian but checking the time stamps he says this 3 minutes after writing Simone is not correct that Hamas accepts the 67 borders. as if he can have it both ways..

        • eee says:

          Annie,

          Of course it is a concession by the PLO or PA and not by Hamas. That is why Hamas does not support the UN move by Fatah. The Palestinians are so divided anyway that no one really speaks for them.

        • pjdude says:

          wrong. all of palestine is palestinian. just because you steal something and convinve a body to break its own rules to rubber stamp it doesn’t make it legally yours.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Not like Israelis who seem to be united by their hatred of the Palestinians, at any rate.

        • Hostage says:

          The Palestinians are so divided anyway that no one really speaks for them.

          That fact wasn’t lost on anyone when the UN adopted the first international convention that called for the establishment of an international criminal tribunal. They assumed that it would allow the Banstustan victim states to prosecute their persecutors and obtain justice.

          Palestinian membership in the International Criminal Court obviously only requires the UN move by Fatah. Ambassador Christian Wenaweser, president of the ICC Assembly of State Parties, said in an interview that a Palestinian observer state could join the ICC and ask the court to investigate any alleged war crimes and other charges against Israel committed on Palestinian territory after July 2002, including Israel’s 2008-09 assault on Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

      • Potsherd2 says:

        It would have been nice if a plebiscite had been held before all this was resolved, so the people could have had an official voice.

        972.com posted this today, said it was from Ramallah:

        The lyrics in English:

        The blue chair

        This is the story of a magical blue chair… A blue chair that will
        travel, soar and fly!
        It comes in dark blue…and in white, Palestine, is drawn (2X)

        This chair…is not just any chair (2X)
        This chair is an extraordinary and magical kind!

        This blue chair…can rise high
        This blue chair…can achieve
        It can a bring us a state
        This chair is one magical blue chair!

        This is the story of a magical blue chair…a blue chair that will
        travel, soar and fly
        It comes in dark blue…and in white, Palestine, is drawn
        This Chair…is not just any Chair (2X)
        This chair is an extraordinary and magical kind!

        This blue chair… a chair for our refugees
        This blue chair…will give us our “Right of Return”
        This chair…will give us back Jerusalem and Palestine

        This is the story of a magical blue chair…a blue chair that will
        travel, soar and fly
        It comes in dark blue…and in white, Palestine, is drawn
        This Chair…is not just any Chair (2X)
        This chair…is of an extraordinary kind

        We’ve got our blue chair…with its own number too
        An enemy to the settlements it serves

        We are the Palestinians…with our magically dangerous blue chair
        We are people…not like any other people
        We are people… who have fallen in love with chairs!

    • MHughes976 says:

      I’m no Rambam such as homingpigeon seeks but I would like, through the mists of my perplexity, to see ‘statehood’ succeed because I think that it contradicts the basic Zionist premise that shares in the sovereignty of Palestine or any part thereof belong only to Jewish people and to those to whom Jewish grace and generosity is extended. The basic reason why no 2ss has ever really been offered is, I think, is that 2ss would in principle concede that the Palestinians have an intrinsic right, a birthright, to be there, and that that concession would in time expose and undermine the monstrous unfairness of the partition that 2ss – ie statehood within the miserable pre-67 borders – embodies. So I think it’s logical for Israel to oppose it and also logical for the Palestinians to be unenthusiastic – it might be something but it’s not enough, a step towards ending injustice but not justice.

    • john h says:

      It seems to me, homingpigeon, it is a step backwards because, as you say, it is a step in the interests of the Zionist state.

      It forfeits the 1947 borders, which are the only legal ones. But much worse, it cements in two states by “defining ownership as Palestinian”and thus forfeits the one state solution, which is the only way to achieve justice.

      So my view is that what you say is not too far from the truth; it is “such a capitulation for the Palestinians”.

      Hence I share your perplexity. Especially as it appears this strategy and this situation is actually supported by Palestinians and their advocates.

    • “I must say that this UN statehood bid for Palestine is one of the most bewildering situations I have seen on the conflict.”

      Welcome to the club. Never before, as far as I can remember, NO was as convincing as YES and vice versa.

  5. I am an Israeli, and I don’t really see a problem with UN recognition of a Palestinian State. The questions arise as to what next:

    What does Fatah do next? Do they engage in State building, creating institutions and processes of a State to the benefit of it’s citizens, or do they use this as a cudgel against Israel while maintaining the status quo on how they run things vis-a-vis their people?

    Where does Hamas fit in? The so-called reconciliation is a house of cards.

    Will Iran allow the situation to move towards a peaceful resolution? Nope, you can be damn sure they will work to create a crisis to torpedo any chance for the next step, direct negotiations between Israel and the newly recognized Palestinian State.

    It’s sort of similar to when Hamas was elected. Yes, it was a democratic process, but Hamas is not democratic by a long shot.

    • GalenSword says:

      Well, I guess it takes one to know one. Zionism was about as undemocratic a movement as one can find, and apologists for Zionism shouldn’t throw stones.

      • Citizen says:

        Longliveisrael, How democratic was it when the UN swing voting states were pressured economically by US (& Australia?) to legitimize the self-declared state of Israel? Did the people most effected, have a note on that?

        Doesn’t Israel use itself as a cudgel against it’s own Arab citizens and their brothers in the OT while maintaining the status quo on how it runs things vis-a-vis its own Jewish people?

        Will Israel allow the situation to move towards a peaceful resolution? Nope, you can be damn sure it will work to create a crisis to torpedo any chance for anything but a rump Palestinian state sovereign only to the extent Israel requires to keep the natives penned in under any configuration. False flags & instigations abound in Israel’s history.

        eee, what you fear from a full sovereign Palestine state are your own projections filled with guilt.

        One state solution brings up a more conscious Jewish Israeli fear: apartheid is bad PR for Israel, turns Israel into the black sheep among nations, rather than a nation among the nations.

    • Mndwss says:

      The (LLI) questions arise as to what next:

      What does Likud do next?

      Where does Yisrael Beiteinu fit in?

      Will USA allow the situation to move towards a peaceful resolution?

      It’s sort of similar to when Bush was elected. Yes, it was a democratic process, but USA is not democratic by a long shot…

      • DBG says:

        there will be an election in a few years, how about for Hamas and the PA?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Where? Your friends bombed the Palestinian parliament building and Israeli commandos have isolated villages from one another with checkpoints. How are Palestinians supposed to vote when their in virtual concentration camps?

    • Walid says:

      LLI, you say that ou’d want to see a Palestnian state, BUT:
      What does Fateh do next? Will it continue in its terrorizing ways?
      Where does Hamasy fit in? What about the reconciliation?
      What will Iran do? Will it torpedo this and that?

      You have so many demons in your head, I’m glad I’m not you. There is no limit to your paranoia.

      • eee says:

        Walid,

        What you call “paranoia” is actually called by most people “planning ahead”. And perhaps the Palestinians would have been in a better position if they did a little “planning ahead”.

        As Andy Grove famously said: Only the paranoid survive

        • annie says:

          Palestinians would have been in a better position if they did a little “planning ahead”.

          sounds like they are catching up for lost time. taking eee’s advice no doubt.

        • Walid says:

          I’m always planning ahead myself, eee, but contrary to your Zionist type, mine does not involve dispossessing my neighbours or causing them any harm. In fact, planning alleviates paranoia. What you have is paranoia pure and simple.

        • eee says:

          Of course Walid. The one thousand Israelis killed in the second intifada are a figment of our imagination. The belligerent talk coming from Hamas are a figment of our imagination. The years of rockets from Gaza are a figment of our imagination.

        • libra says:

          eee: “As Andy Grove famously said: Only the paranoid survive”

          What Andy Grove said in full (from Wikipedia):

          “Business success contains the seeds of its own destruction,” explaining that “Success breeds complacency. Complacency breeds failure. Only the paranoid survive.”

          He meant situations change and you if you don’t spot that in time but keep on (quite literally in Israel’s case) bulldozing ahead you don’t survive. He could equally have said:

          “Zionism contains the seeds of its own destruction,” explaining that “Zionism breeds complacency. Complacency breeds failure. Only the paranoid survive.”

          Though eee, it does put all your comments here on MW in a new light. Given the way things have being going recently for Israel, it would seem that you are not paranoid enough. And that’s something I never thought I’d write.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          SEVERAL thousand Palestinians were killed in the years prior to the Second Intifadah. I think the only one with the fevered imagination is you, eee — you like to pretend that Palestinian lives don’t matter.

        • eee says:

          Libra,

          You don’t understand what Grove is saying. Business is a competitive endeavor. Zionism is an ideology. The two are totally different. The competition for the same piece of land between the Jews and Palestinians is the endeavor worth being paranoid about.

          Zionism does not contain the seeds of its destruction nor does Zionism breed complacency. You either believe the Jews should have a country in mandatory Palestine or you don’t. Preserving and ameliorating the Jewish state is not the same as Zionism. Naturally, it is something that Zionists do because they believe a Jewish state is a worthy goal, but this process should not be conflated with the ideology of the people behind it. Another example: An entrepreneur is likely to be a capitalist, but entrepreneurship, the process of starting a new business, should not be conflated with capitalism.

          So no, Grove would never have said what you said because he was talking about a on going process, not about an ideology.

        • Shingo says:

          The one thousand Israelis killed in the second intifada are a figment of our imagination

          …and the thousands killed by Israel, along with the occupation, ethnic cleansing, oppression is a figment of ours.

        • eljay says:

          >> The one thousand Israelis killed in the second intifada are a figment of our imagination.

          Blowback from an ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.

          >> The belligerent talk coming from Hamas are a figment of our imagination.

          Blowback from an ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.

          >> The years of rockets from Gaza are a figment of our imagination.

          Blowback from an ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.

          Hmmm…I’m starting to see a pattern here.

        • GalenSword says:

          The Third Reich was paranoid but did not survive.

        • Citizen says:

          eee,
          Your “planning ahead” is short-term; I imagine that’s what the Iranian guy meant when he said the Zionist entity will eventually end up in the dustbin of history (like the USSR). The AIPAC-minded US regime has been thinking short term like the Israeli regime. That’s the real meaning of Beiden’s “no light between US & Israel.” If the US press was true to its mandate to inform all US citizens, Obama would have been forced to indict Shrub & his necons for fraud in the inducement of wars, and Dennis Ross would be a bad name on the tongue of every American instead of a virtually unknown lackey of AIPAC–AIPAC itself would be registered as an orchestration agent of a foreign government.

    • kapok says:

      What next? Hopefully the Palestinians get their hands on some decent anti-aircraft and anti-tank tools. Maybe a few drones for good measure. You know, for the balance.

      • Hey Kapok, I thought you activists were all about peaceful solutions. So having the Palestinians armed better is going to make their situation better, right?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Peaceful activism won’t stop Israelis like you from killing Palestinian men, women and children. You’ve proved that several times over with your military’s penchant for inflicting head trauma on unarmed protesters.

          If you’re going to make peace impossible by arming settlers and turning every Jew in Israel into a warrior for Zionist extremism, then you are going to have to live with the consequences of your decision to embrace terror and violence.

        • kapok says:

          LOL, are YOU barking up the wrong tree! Israel didn’t get where it is by handing out sponge cake.

        • Simone Daud says:

          The right to self defence is sacrosanct right?

        • Simone, you have my respect so far, so glad to delve into this with you. Kapok and company want to fight to the last Palestinian just like Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran etc.

          So, the Palestinians get more and better missiles, guns etc. What’s the end game and how will this benefit the Palestinians other than leading to even more vicious battles? Will going down the path the Kapoks of the world and the mullahs of Iran want you to bring you peace, justice, security, a thriving economy etc?

        • Eva Smagacz says:

          The right to self defence is sacrosanct unless its against us, and then it is terrorism or provocation or lawfare or delegitimazation or Pallywood or Anti-Semitism or all of the above.

        • Ya know, Eva, I know you love the Palestinians and are there for them and all, against us evil Jews, but I am pretty certain that Simone is well capable in responding to the above, if he so desires.

        • kapok says:

          On the whole, I’d rather fight than offer up my neck peacefully for strangulation.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “us evil Jews”

          Jesus Christ, can’t you give that fucking bullshit a rest for even one minute? No one hates you because you’re Jews. People hate what you are doing; the fact that you are Jews is irrelevant. But you, out of brainlessness, a gigantic victimization complex or some other defect of character seem convinced that it all has to be because you’re Jews.

          That is such a lame excuse and is really pathetic. If you knocked off the fucking evil bullshit you do to the Palestinians, no one would bother to even notice you. But no, you don’t get a pass to do evil shit simply because you’re Jews. You get judged just like everyone else: by your acts.

          So either knock off the pathetic, shitty insinuations that people are opposed to Israel because of antisemitism or shut the fuck up.

        • RoHa says:

          Don’t hold it in, Woody. Say what you really think.

        • annie says:

          I know you love the Palestinians and are there for them and all, against us evil Jews

          are you speaking for yourself and your ‘ilk’ lli? because many of us don’t think you represent the jewish community, at all. i’d say there’s a new jew in town but we all know they’ve been around all this time. jews i want to emulate, jews i admire, jews who friggin rock. you don’t own jewishness and you don’t represent jewishness, not to me anyway.

          And Jews who are more Jewish-community-oriented than I am are going to be making a stand now–Donna Nevel, for instance, who organized the forum at which Weinstein spoke, and who wrote on this site last week explaining why she thinks it’s important to spend energy inside the Jewish community.

          Weinstein and Nevel are deeply compassionate people on the left who are trying to save the Jewish community from marrying Jim Crow. And just watch, their voices are going to get louder and louder.

          So I thank the Palestinians for shaking my community up.

          (my bold)

          move on over, others are taking the reins and speaking for the jewish community. and they definitely are not evil.

        • “No one hates you because you’re Jews

          Right. Why, because Woody says so. In other words, hatred towards Jews is only and only because of the situation in the Middle East.

          Either I as a Jew and Israeli agree with Woody or I should shut up.

          Woody, you didn’t get the memo. We Jews are no longer all ghetto Jews. We don’t walk in the gutter when the non-Jew walks by. We don’t; tremble in fear when non-Jews come at us as they have for centuries.

          In fact, when people like you attack us, we fight and we fight to kill. I know that pisses you off, it’s not fun not having the little Jew boy to kick around any more. Now, though, you can rant away at us just by saying it’s Zionism and since you are doing it on a Jews blog, it’s all kosher.

        • No annie, that’s the old Jew, the ghetto Jew, the ones who try desperately to be liked by the non-Jew, who want to “belong” and assimilate and be just like everyone else. They cringe when they see stuff on here about how we Jews cause all the wars, and how we caused 9/11 and own the banks etc etc. But, they say, look, we are not that kind of Jew. We are progressive Jews. Please believe us.

          Look, we will even support boycotting Israel. We are the nice Jews. Never mind that they are less than a minuscule part of the Jewish people.

          annie, it would be a cold day in hell before I care about being the right kind of Jew for you.

        • annie says:

          bloviate enough lli?

        • annie says:

          Never mind that they are less than a minuscule part of the Jewish people.

          only in your friggin dreams tool. they rule. time will tell. how do you think jews have survived and thrived for so long? wake up. they are your saving grace, embrace them. they are..moral.

        • Simone Daud says:

          “We Jews are no longer all ghetto Jews. We don’t walk in the gutter when the non-Jew walks by. We don’t; tremble in fear when non-Jews come at us as they have for centuries.”

          I have never met a Jewish person like that in my life. In fact, I’ve been active with very leftist humanists Jews in Israel and they were tough. Tougher than anything I’ve ever seen. And many of the tougher ones where non-Zionists. Amazing group of leaders in the Palestinian civil rights movement.

        • Cliff says:

          Get over yourself lli. We are regular people and we care about the Palestinians. Its part of your sick ideology to twist opposition to Zionism as random Jew hatred.

          Give that bullshit a rest! Come up with new material you hack.

        • Cliff says:

          Fight to kill? Are you mentally ill? Don’t issue threats to other commentators you freak.

          Woody is right too. You’re just plain stupid and repulsive. A total loser. That’s why people don’t like you, Zionist. It’s your behavior not something arbitrary like your religion.

        • Longlivemyfoot
          Why do you keep bringing Iran into the discussion? Do you think we’re too blind, too stupid to see the strings pulling that thing?

        • MRW says:

          Ohh Mooser, ♫ ♫ we need you.

          We Jews are no longer all ghetto Jews. We don’t walk in the gutter when the non-Jew walks by. We don’t; tremble in fear when non-Jews come at us as they have for centuries.

          In fact, when people like you attack us, we fight and we fight to kill. I know that pisses you off, it’s not fun not having the little Jew boy to kick around any more. Now, though, you can rant away at us just by saying it’s Zionism and since you are doing it on a Jews blog, it’s all kosher.

          when non-Jews come at us as they have for centuries
          when people like you attack us
          you can rant away at us
          since you are doing it on a Jews blog

          Just think, the timeline from the centuries down to this screen.

        • ““us evil Jews”
          Jesus Christ, can’t you give that fucking bullshit a rest for even one minute? ”

          Woody..The short answer is no. The long one is: Why should we when it helps us garner sympathy to the cause from the unsuspecting and the naive, preferably Americans?

        • “Either I as a Jew and Israeli agree with Woody or I should shut up. ”

          I, too, am asking you to give up this pathology or shut up.. We don’t hate the Jews. We (I, to be accurate) hate people like you who use this victim sleight of hand in order to draw sympathy to your cause. It’s vomit inducing. Give it up. It’s lame. Mendacious actually.

        • Shmuel says:

          We Jews are no longer all ghetto Jews. We don’t walk in the gutter when the non-Jew walks by. We don’t; tremble in fear when non-Jews come at us as they have for centuries.

          What a load of anti-Semitic crap: the snivelling, weak “diaspora” Jew vs. the proud, muscular, “normal” Zionist Jew. Do you really hate Jews that much?

        • Maybe you also consider Miko Peled, a strong critic of Israeli policies, not your kind of Jew. One of the small, insignificant minority? What’s your opinion longlive, because I’m going to listen to him next Sunday.

        • Sumud says:

          What’s your opinion longlive, because I’m going to listen to him [Miko Peled] next Sunday.

          Hey, I’m going to his Melbourne talk tomorrow (Tuesday) night.

          If there’s any other people in Australia interested in hearing him talk he has upcoming dates in Canberra, Brisbane, Sydney, Newcastle, Adelaide and Perth.

          Info is on the Australians for Palestine site:

          link to australiansforpalestine.net

          Scroll down to the ‘Events in your state’ sidebar on the right to see the dates.

        • Hostage says:

          We Jews are no longer all ghetto Jews.

          No, I’m a secular Jew who lives in fly-over country here in the US.

          We don’t walk in the gutter when the non-Jew walks by.

          It appears to me that Israelis have brought their gutter mentality with them and pretty much ruined the neighborhood where they live. They are funding the construction of hundreds of kilometers of walls and fences around themselves and are scared of: their own shadows; members of humanitarian relief convoys; children of migrant workers; foreign NGOs; Iranians; Hezbollah; Hamas; the Muslim Brotherhood; or little kids in the state next door arming themselves with a few rocks. Israelis have recalled their Embassy staffs from Egypt and Jordan, and they’ve been tossed-out of Turkey. Did I forget anything?

        • Citizen says:

          kapok, exactly. Ironic, eh? That’s the problem in a nutshell: The world knows what Israel has handed out to get where it is. Israel views this situation as a PR problem. The world see it as a problem of morality and post Nuremberg/Geneva violations. Not to mention Israel has never filled the conditions precedent in Balfour nor has it fulfilled the conditions subsequent in UN recognition. It’s been a rogue state from the beginning. Shoah guilt can only justify so much for principled folks.

        • Citizen says:

          It appears Affirmative Action is a notion only of Western nations.

        • andrew r says:

          “We Jews are no longer all ghetto Jews. We don’t walk in the gutter when the non-Jew walks by. We don’t; tremble in fear when non-Jews come at us as they have for centuries.”

          I don’t know if it’s still common among Zionists to say, “like sheep to the slaughter,” but LLI reminded me of that slogan. Basically, he’s blaming the extermination of the European Jews on their own weakness. That’s not only anti-semitism, it’s the equivalent of Nazi thinking that the Jews were destined to suffer “historical death” due to their weakness.

        • andrew r says:

          “In fact, when people like you attack us, we fight and we fight to kill.”

          LLI, allow me to ask a question you are 100% guaranteed to ignore: Did Zionists attack the enemies of the Jews in Europe, outside of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which did not involve any mainstream (i.e. Labour or Revisionist) leadership? Or did they just go to Palestine and kill Arabs with the British? Maybe you can show me one paramilitary struggle against anti-semites in Europe led by Zionists.

          It could be you know of such an event. As far as I know, Zionists struggled to colonize Palestine and set up their armed activities in a place from where no one went to Odessa and Kishinev to kill Jews. They were not interested in defending Jews in Europe. And they couldn’t have, because all Zionist leaders sought the backing of imperial powers – it would’ve been beyond the pale for Britain and Germany to back armed struggle by Jews in Tsarist Russia.

          You disagree with this version of events, show me I’m wrong. Until then, Zionists have always been cowards who can only hit defenseless targets.

        • pretty much ruined the neighborhood where they live.

          I like this one the most. Why, the Middle East was like Switzerland before Israel. Wonderful, tolerant, democratic societies, till those nasty Jews came along.

        • What a dumb question. You are saying that Jews finally realized that they had to get out of Europe, it was never going to change, and that the objective was their total annihilation and therefore Israel was a key option. No, they should have stayed in Europe and fought the Nazi machine.

          You don’t agree, but Israel is our homeland, legally and historically.

        • annie says:

          You are saying that Jews …. should have stayed in Europe and fought the Nazi machine.

          i think he was responding to your assertion: ““In fact, when people like you attack us, we fight and we fight to kill.””

          you say “when people like you attack us”, yet those who posed the most dire threat to jews, the nazis, did zionists fight and fight to kill? or did they fight and kill for palestine?

        • eee says:

          Andrew,

          There were uprising in several ghettos, not only Warsaw. And Jews joined many partisan units. But that is beside the point. What the Jews did was buy land in Palestine and move there. Both under the Ottoman empire and the British mandate.

          You talk as if the Jews had an option to choose Kent or Bavaria as places for their homeland and chose Palestine in spite of the other offers. The Jews took what was given. And Palestine was given because of the Judeo-Christian tradition that identifies the Jews with Palestine.

        • Mooser says:

          “No annie, that’s the old Jew, the ghetto Jew, the ones who try desperately to be liked by the non-Jew, who want to “belong” and assimilate and be just like everyone else.”

          Aw c’mon LLI, it’s early, call me later. I’m too busy right now cooking breakfast (with pork sausage) for my Christian masters.

        • Mooser says:

          “Ohh Mooser, ♫ ♫ we need you.”

          Sorry, I’m with the Mennonites now, can’t socialise with you people!

          Actually, I still feel the way I felt over a year ago. I think Phil ought to adopt Mark Elf’s (of Jews Sans Frontieres) comment policy: He bans “liars, time-wasters, and bigots” after three warnings.

        • Mooser says:

          “No, they should have stayed in Europe and fought the Nazi machine.”

          Gee, an awful lot of brave people did, why couldn’t the Jews make common cause with the partisans and resistance?

        • andrew r says:

          First of all, I’m not saying Jews should have stayed in Europe and faced certain death fighting the Nazis. Since we’re on the subject, evacuating all European Jews was not a Zionist objective, either. Israel proponents like you use the Holocaust as a justification for Zionist attacks on Palestinians, yet the Zionists did nothing to rescue Jews in Europe on a mass scale nor was there anything they could have done.

          The question is, before the Nazis were around, what did Zionists do to fight their enemies in Europe? The answer is not much of anything. Their goal was creating a new society for a select group of Hebrews in Palestine. That required replacing the people already living there with an Ashkenazim majority and thus conflict with them, a fact recognized as early as the early 1910′s by the press of Poalei Tzion and Hapoel Hatzair.

          Any Palestinian attack on the Zionist project becomes a pogrom or attempt at extermination and thus, you can hallucinate fighting your persecutors in Europe even though this project is the aggression in Palestine and is the persecution that should be fought.

        • andrew r says:

          “The Jews took what was given. And Palestine was given because of the Judeo-Christian tradition that identifies the Jews with Palestine.”

          eee, on the off chance you learn to care about facts, here are some:

          -90% of the second aliyah (1904-1914) did not remain in Palestine

          -Most of the children of the first aliyah emigrated back to Europe or the States

          -According to J. Goldstein in “The Attitude of the Jewish and the Russian Intelligentzia to Zionism in the Initial Period (1897-1904)” (Cited in Etan Bloom’s thesis on Ruppin), 60,000 Russian Jews identified with Zionism with no more than 8,000 directly active and only a small fraction of that immigrating to Palestine. 3-4% of all Jews who left E. Europe before WWI went to Palestine with 2 million going to the US.

          -Of course the British also offered Uganda which was shot down by the WZO, but don’t let that get in the way of your “Judeo-Christian” nonsense.

          -The Palestine Office/Jewish Agency screened out potential olim for physical prowess and enthusiasm. Jewish laborers were often sent back if they fell ill and only their immediate families could go with them. The first aliyah moshavot were not intended as a refuge, either; their owners did not care if the Jewish workers returned from whence they came.

          Even if the Zionist program succeeded on its own terms before 1933, there’s no reason to believe it would have openly taken in as many European Jews as possible. Weizmann himself only expected to settle a million Jews there in 20 years after the British occupation.

          While you are correct that the Zionists wanted to get Jews out of Europe, what you need to realize is that they only wanted to populate Palestine with a select subset of Jews whom they saw as capable of restoring the Jewish volk to its ancient soil, which means they were not interested in saving European Jewish communities as such. In other words, they wanted to save an abstract Jewish people from dying in Europe as opposed to physically saving each and every last individual. The Palestine Office/Jewish Agency/MAPAI leadership did not care what happened to the Jews they left behind.

        • MRW says:

          andrew r, great point. The Zionists did zip to help the Jews in Europe, and compounded it by covering their tracks after WWII. They made it illegal to discuss what they did.

          Here’s Yakov Rabkin a few months ago here at Mondoweiss.
          link to mondoweiss.net

          Reliance on imperial support is a congenital trait of Zionism. From the end of the 19th century, Theodore Herzl systematically approached Berlin, London, Saint Petersburg and Istanbul in his efforts to create a Zionist colony in Palestine. The idea of dealing with indigenous inhabitants of the country would be utterly alien to the founder of Zionism and his disciples, and, indeed, a bizarre notion in the epoch of triumphant European colonialism. Herzl wrote that he wanted the future Jewish State to become “a part of the wall of civilization” against Asiatic barbarism.

          When Britain assumed control of Palestine, the Zionists came to rely on Britain to pursue a path of separate development: establishing settler colonies instead of joining the then existing pluralistic society, a true mosaic of dozens of ethnic and religious groups. This settler project received a decisive boost in 1947, when, under pressure from the United States and the Soviet Union, the United Nations General Assembly decided to partition Palestine, allocating 55% of it to the Zionists, who then constituted about a third of the population of Palestine and owned but 7% of the land. More significantly, this decision was made in spite of the opposition of the majority of the country’s population and of all the surrounding nations. In this sense, the United Nations embraced the dismissive attitude expressed by Lord Balfour in 1919: “Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, and future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.”

    • Shingo says:

      …and how long will Israel allow those insiturions to stand before bombing them?

      BTW. The IP conflict has NOTHING to do with Iran.

      • Yes, Shingo, a typical blurted out statement from you.

        1) Why would Israel not want there to be a well functioning government that manages the affairs of the Palestinians to the total benefit of the Palestinians, which includes peace and security for them and their neighbours?

        2) If you can make a statement that Iran has nothing to do with this conflict, then what are your opinions based on, because basic knowledge of the forces involved is beyond you.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Yes yes yes, because EVERYTHING can be blamed on Saddam Hussein Ahmedinejad in Iraq Iran, huh, LLI?

        • Cliff says:

          Iran has nothing to do with. It is an excuse in a long line of excuses for Zionist goons like you to deny the Palestinians basic human rights.

          You are a Zionist first and foremost. It would be antisemitic to recognize you as a Jew based on your hatefulness and narcissism.

        • MRW says:

          longliveisrael,

          How old are you?

        • annie says:

          good question mrw

        • Longlivemyfoot
          It bewilders me that you’re putting this victimhood sickness on show at the very moment when you’re stealing more land destroying more houses, building more facts on the ground, ethnic cleansing what you have slated to be your greater Israel and denying people their basic rights. Flabbergasting chutzpah! How do you manage to do both, weep and laugh at the same time?

        • Citizen says:

          Iran does not have a track record of aggressive or “preventive” or preemptive war. Israel’s record there is # 1. Considering Iran’s memory of CIA installation of the Shah, US & Israeli support of Saddam when he was “one of our guys,” and fact of US Military bases surrounding Iran and US nuclear-armed ships, subs, and aircraft carriers nearby, seems to me its very rational for Iran to “plan ahead” & develop nukes since US & Israel have plenty of them–Iran’s stealth support of others in its region is most minimal self-defense measure. Iran is waking up, same as Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, etc. Tyrants will no longer have it easy in the ME.

        • MRW, not that it matters, but I’m 56.

        • Mooser says:

          “MRW, not that it matters, but I’m 56.”

          And you are six-foot-five, and your body is one solid mass of rippling muscles and kreplach. And your head is a blueberry blintz. He’s a super-Jew! An uber-Jew.
          And he’s gonna tell all the rest of us what to do, or he’ll write to the Pope and get us excommunicated.

        • DBG says:

          you are a hero for the Palestinian people Mooser.

        • Mooser says:

          “It would be antisemitic to recognize you as a Jew based on your hatefulness and narcissism.”

          That’s funny, that’s exactly what I kept on telling the Rabbi and my parents, but they made me go through with the bar-mitzvah anyway.
          But then again, how many people had their bar mitzvah and reception photographed by Arthur Swoger? In B&W no less, which enraged my Mother no end. (‘For the amount he drank, we should have gotten color!’)

        • Moooser, Shingo, Cliff, Annie Chaos et al.

          link to elderofziyon.blogspot.com

          Oh dear, will this woman now have evil Zionist thoughts, given that she had an Israeli Jewish heart transplanted?

        • DBG says:

          c’mon LLI, we all know the heart was only donated for Hasbara purposes.

        • Citizen says:

          The heart is a mechanical pump. It has no thought nor indoctrinated need for a special identity label to work fine if it’s physically healthy.

        • annie says:

          lli, i went to the original article in arabic and translated it. it is beautiful indeed. why would you want to politicize such a personal human story of two families?

          Meeting very moving between the girl’s family donor and the family of Samara was a Saturday in the House of Mrs. gesture of Samara in Nazareth, in return for an intimate warm unable to pen and described, as the rival girl’s mother Liz Ayyash (of Moroccan origin) hugs with the carrier, the heart and lungs of her daughter and mixed with tears of sadness and joy in the eyes of members of two families and two sides exchanged words of love, appreciation and gratitude.

          Moments affecting the bend before any talk Haaratne and give her all the sensations and feelings and emotions, when they cried or girl, listen carefully to the words of a sign coming out of breath and lungs of her daughter, when I asked her gesture, if her daughter like laughing a lot and like to enjoy life and people, Vojaptha mother Liz and tears, eyes that All she said was from Safat her daughter, and also said it since he entered the house and Tmant in the sight of a sign I saw a cute daughter and she’s feeling a strange feeling to say that her daughter (longs) is not dead and still her heart beating and lungs breathing, and then sent Liz her words the husband Mohammed Samara said his voice tremulous that it is now sponsored and maintained his wife more and meet all her wishes to heart beats (longs) long years, because the gesture is the Queen of the families and must be protected.

          emotional stories like this give me much hope.

        • Cliff says:

          Heart of Jenin

          link to pbs.org

          Watch the documentary.

          longliveisrael and DBG,

          No one here takes you serious enough to be injured by your hysterics.

          You use that woman’s heart as a weapon against the Palestinian cause.

          It follows that we would first have to accept the premise that we think Jews are evil inherently and we don’t.

          YOU are disliked because of YOUR actions. YOU do not represent JEWS in and of themselves as an abstraction.

          YOU, longliveisrael, an old senile hateful fart, are disliked because you’re an old senile hateful fart. You JUST HAPPEN TO BE Jewish.

          Jewishness is NOT your identifier.

          Maybe you should spend the next 56 years of your miserable life developing some humanity.

        • Cliff says:

          You’re disgusting.

          And apparently you agree with hophmi that ‘Palestinians supported Hitler’ (and hence, suffer the ‘consequences’ – vague, but the idiot said both statements anyway).

        • Cliff says:

          Anything from ElderofZiyon is going to be framed within a dishonest context.

          I’ll read that story elsewhere, because I’m sure it happened. I won’t accept the hateful, Zionist editorial accompanying it.

          You never stop to give yourself PR, do you, freak?

        • DBG says:

          Cliff you don’t think the same goes for Mondoweiss? both are guilty of propaganda and biased ‘reporting’

    • “Do they engage in State building, creating institutions and processes of a State to the benefit of it’s citizens”

      How can they engage in state building when the said state itself is occupied and more and more of its lands are taken away? Hum?

      “Will Iran allow the situation to move towards a peaceful resolution?”

      Ok, I give up. What good is there in engaging a child who’s convinced there’s a monster under his bed?

  6. pabelmont says:

    What happens next is first, and surely, [a] occuopation is (so far) uninterrupted and second, and far less surely, [b] the UNGA (or, with much luck the UNSC) resolve that Israel must comply with law at least so far as removing all settlers and dismantling all settlements and wall, and making this resolution (so far merely echoing UNSC-465 (1980)) EFFECTIVE by supplying a regime of sanctions which go into effect if Israel fails to meet deadlines implied by the resolution. Also, perhaps action in ICC or ICJ.

    • eee says:

      Just as there was a regime of sanctions to force Israel and its “settlers” out of the Golan. And just as Syria successfully petitioned the ICC and ICJ. You are dreaming. If any of these things had a chance of working, Syria would have tried them.

      • Chaos4700 says:

        It hasn’t occurred to you that a state like Syria needs to avoid the ICC and the ICJ like the plague? For the same reasons your country has to, eee?

      • “its “settlers””

        Why putting quotation marks? You don’t think they are?

        Besides, don’t even think for a second that the Golan is all point, set and match, eee. You haven’t seen anything yet. You’ll have to spit it out like a got potato pretty soon enough.

        • Shmuel says:

          Why putting quotation marks? You don’t think they are?

          Of course he doesn’t think the Golan settlers are settlers. 3e is a great believer in democracy, and if a majority of Israeli citizens – and by extension, the entire Jewish people (who are free to come to Israel, obtain Israeli citizenship and vote, at any time) – doesn’t consider them settlers, then they are not settlers. After all, international law is only relevant when it serves “the national interest”.

        • And apart from the eminently democratic ‘might macht right’, any other reason he might have for pilfering the Golan? I wonder..

        • Citizen says:

          Schmuel, yes; who but ignorant Americans do not see gigantic irony when Israel points to the UN as legitimizer of Israel as a nation among nations, a state among official states, and simultaneously points to the UN as an evil delegitimizer when it tries to hold Israel accountable for its illegal activities in the OT?

        • eee says:

          Shmuel,

          I couldn’t have said it better.
          How can you keep babbling about international law when the UNSC cannot get one resolution regarding Syria? When Russia and China are the countries upholding this “law”? It is nothing but a sick joke and it is only applied to very weak countries or entities without allies or natural resources.

          As for the Golan, Israel annexed it and of course for me Israeli law trumps any other law.

        • eee says:

          Citizen,

          It is no the UN that legitimized Israel. Israel became legitimate because it won the 1947-48 war. If it would have lost that war, it would not exist. All the UN declarations are just pieces of paper that count for nothing.

        • Shmuel says:

          I couldn’t have said it better.

          So if you want to take a vacation or something, don’t worry, I’ve got things covered for you over here, honest ;-)

        • Cliff says:

          Every resolution counts and it’s precisely because of those resolutions and their origins that people are motivated to work for the Palestinian cause.

          We KNOW you don’t care. Why do you come to this blog and pound your chest? I assure you we don’t care.

          People are focused on the cause. Your indifference and pride is sad. We aren’t over at some Zionist blog. You came here. Remember that, you goon.

        • eee says:

          Cliff,

          What exactly have you done about the plight of the 160 million Dalit in India:
          According to William A. Haviland, however:
          Although India’s national constitution of 1950 sought to abolish caste discrimination and the practice of untouchability, the caste system remains deeply entrenched in Hindu culture and is still widespread throughout southern Asia, especially in rural India. In what has been called India’s “hidden apartheid”, entire villages in many Indian states remain completely segregated by caste. Representing about 15 percent of India’s population—or some 160 million people—the widely scattered Dalits endure near complete social isolation, humiliation, and discrimination based exclusively on their birth status. Even a Dalit’s shadow is believed to pollute the upper classes. They may not cross the line dividing their part of the village from that occupied by higher castes, drink water from public wells, or visit the same temples as the higher castes. Dalit children are still often made to sit in the back of classrooms.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          So Cliffy, have you solved that much bigger problem and are now interested in Zionism? Or do you only bother to call Israel an “apartheid” state when it is clear that India is an apartheid state?

        • Hostage says:

          What exactly have you done about the plight of the 160 million Dalit in India

          I for one don’t allow Israelis to delegitimize the progress brought about through the work of the UN Human Rights Council treaty monitoring bodies. Article 3 of the ICERD prohibits apartheid and the CERD panel of Experts periodically identifies any serious problem areas and requests that governments take corrective action.

          Since the Indian government ratified the ICERD in 1968, the government of India has implemented many anti-discrimination measures recommended by the UN expert panels, “such as the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act (1989) and the monitoring of acts of discrimination and violence against members of scheduled castes and scheduled tribes, including the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment, the Union and State Parliamentary Committees on Social Justice, the Ministry of Tribal Affairs, and the National Commissions on Scheduled Castes and on Scheduled Tribes.”

          Unlike the official position of the government of Israel, many of the the responsible Indian officials readily admit the problem exists. For example, the Indian Prime Minister addressed the Dalit- Minority International Conference in New Delhi on 27 December 2006 and said that “the only parallel to the practice of ‘Untouchability’ was Apartheid in South Africa.” The CERD panel of experts have recommended that the government aggressively prosecute cases of Untouchability:

          13. The Committee notes with concern that, despite the formal abolition of “Untouchability” by article 17 of the Indian Constitution, de facto segregation of Dalits persists, in particular in rural areas, in access to places of worship, housing, hospitals, education, water sources, markets and other public places. (arts. 3 and 5)
          The Committee urges the State party to intensify its efforts to enforce the Protection of Civil Rights Act (1955), especially in rural areas, including by effectively punishing acts of “Untouchability”, to take effective measures against segregation in public schools and residential segregation, and to ensure equal access for Dalits places of worship, hospitals, water sources and any other places or services intended for use by the general public.

          Try reading the periodic review reports. See CERD/C/IND/CO/19, link to www2.ohchr.org

        • Chaos4700 says:

          So, eee, how long are you going to keep dodging what I pointed out? That Israel and Syria are basically in the same boat for the same sort of crimes?

  7. GalenSword says:

    I am not convinced that text like وانتزاع أرضنا وحقوقنا الوطنية من الاحتلال الصهيوني بإذن الله is merely limited to the Occupied Territories nor am I certain that liberate is really a good translation of انتزاع in this context. I would use extract, remove, snatch or grab.

    There is a real material difference between the language of hamas and that of the PA.

    • Potsherd2 says:

      There is a real material difference between the circumstances of Hamas and those of the PA.

    • Simone Daud says:

      You mean the language of Hamas and the language of Fateh?

      انتزاع

      was difficult. in the context I liked liberate better because the meaning is to grab by force.

      Of course, if the opportunity arose to open Haifa or Jaffa to their original inhabitants, I’m not sure any Palestinian would bulk at that or hesitating in grabbing that particular opportunity.

      What is important here is that Hamas sees the 1967 borders and a state within those borders a strategic priority. So do most Palestinians.

      The ideological perspectives of Hamas and Fateh and the other groups of course differ and share this old notion of striving for justice for the Palestinian people.

      • GalenSword says:

        You are correct. I meant the language of Hamas and the language of Fateh.

      • john h says:

        SD, you seem to be saying that “the 1967 borders” are a satisfaction of “this old notion of striving for justice for the Palestinian people.”

        How can it be that “most Palestinians” see it this way? Is that on the principle that half a loaf is better than none? Enlighten this perplexed person!

      • GalenSword says:

        BTW, I assumed that
        انتزاع
        was used in order to imply “grab what can be grabbed now” but liberation will come later. After all Arabic has words much closer in meaning range to the English word liberate.

      • jimby says:

        S.D., What about Marwan Barghoutti? Would he still be a stabilizing force for the Palestinians? There was a time that he seemed to be someone acceptable to the different factions.

        • Simone Daud says:

          There is no Question that should Marwan Barghoutti be released he will be well equipped in terms of popular support to lead the Palestinians.

          Though I have to say that Mahmoud al-Zahar seems to be happy being in charge of a blockaded, quasi-independent, Gaza.

        • annie says:

          they won’t release Marwan Barghoutti, he is too powerful. unless the situation creates a peace and reconciliation commission or something down the road. i do believe in his lifetime he will be released but not anytime soon.

  8. “Its interest for me is in the way Hamas describes what it thinks is the Palestinian national consensus. It seems that Hamas’ only substantive objection to going to the UN is its own lack of involvement in the bid and the emphasis by Abbas that the appeal to the UN is part of the negotiations process.”

    Thanks for that acknowledgment. I had a similar impression.

    They want a veto on every effort. So, they have that veto relative to the UN. Their position could actually sway enough European states away from the petition, still enough numbers to pass it, but without real consent.

    Its like they are in the pay of the US state department, removing an element of contreversy from the US opposition to the petition.

    A shadow of likud.

    • Chaos4700 says:

      “Without real consent.” Just how far are you willing to take a crap on democratic principles in order to move those goalposts and make EVERYTHING Israel does “legal” and EVERYTHING Palestinians do “illegal?” I fucking swear, Witty, you are the most heartless and callous bastard I’ve ever encountered. At least people like eee grew up being brainwashed by a police state. What’s your excuse for your utter contempt and hatred of Palestinians?

      • Citizen says:

        Witty thinks that whatever Israel does it is justified to preserve the Jewish people’s insurance policy against the DNA defective goys, which is most of the world. He points to his in-law elders’ experience as proof positive of his deduction. He is the victim by collective proxy. He’s reading from the same page as other hasbara bots here who have decided they are only being wise, “planning ahead.” They wouldn’t want to find themselves in the situation they have put the Palestinian people in… Dissent=pogrom in the bushes of America.

    • Mooser says:

      “an element of contreversy

      Yup, that’s our Witty. Third grade Ideas, and forth grade spelling. (I apologise to all those with competent third and fourth grade students in the family)
      And that’s the second time he’s made this same misspelling.

  9. Remax says:

    he (Bill Clinton) believed Washington would veto a the proposal at the Security Council since it is “committed to Israel’s security.”

    link to haaretz.com

    Then we apparently have his wife announcing that the US supports the Two-State Solution and therefore opposes any UN vote recognizing a Palestinian state.

    link to avnery-news.co.il

    Leaving aside for a moment the merits of the UN bid, I cannot understand in what way the UN vote by itself threatens Israel’s security.

    The only way these positions make sense is if recognition would provoke something negative to Israel’s security. But what? Whatever it is must be more important than the damage the veto will do the US with the Arab world, or the good that would arise from an abstention. Is it possible that these statements reveal that to the US hierarchies the occupied territories are actually Israel?

    • john h says:

      What they’re really scared of is the legal ramifications, especially the ability it will give Palestine to go to the ICC. That’s where their insecurity is.

      • DBG says:

        The ICC thing goes both ways JH

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Oh indeed. And NOTHING the Palestinians have EVER done compares with the scope of human suffering that Israel inflicts on a daily basis. So nobody’s really that worried.

        • john h says:

          I know, DBG, but that doesn’t water down what I said one iota.

        • eljay says:

          >> The ICC thing goes both ways …

          So let it go both ways. All criminals must be held accountable for their crimes.

        • DBG says:

          the ultimate victim huh Chaos? you should really get a good book on the conflict, I assure you the Palestinians have perpetrated their fair share of human suffering over the last 60 years. If you can’t admit that then you are only hurting the your cause.

        • Charon says:

          And just what would you consider a good book on the conflict, DBG? A biased one-sided narrative written by Zionists?

          If you peel back the mythology and lies that have muddied the conflict, the actual truth is there in plain sight for anybody to see and it disproves 99.9% of everything that you say.

          Cause and effect, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Now apply that to the conflict. How dare those Palestinians actually fight back?! How dare they continue to resist under occupation?! You can’t point to the conclusion and use it as an excuse without examining the cause. They did not cause this, Zionists caused it. Zionists are responsible for the status quo. Zionists are responsible for failed negotiations. I’ve read the Palestinian papers and that Abbas nearly considered accepting a botched state proves that Israel is a thuggish ‘negotiating’ partner.

          Consider this, Gaza, the WB, and EJ are occupied Palestinian territory. Those are the cards that the Palestinians brought to the table. There was nothing generous about the Barak generous offer and the fact that the Zionist expectation was the Palestinians must concede territory and got nothing in return defies rationality. Yeah sacrifices must be made on both sides obviously, but if Israel wants to keep any of the settlements in the WB, Israel would have had to make sacrifices of equal value in return and they never did this. Not once. That destroys the myth of Palestinians responsible for failed negotiations.

          You Zionists do not understand your own conflict. Rejecting facts and believing a lie will never make that lie into the truth. Yes firing rockets at civilians is cruel and should be condemned. Not by taking out other civilians with extreme force. When Israel has been caught multiple times faking or planning to fake such attacks, how can anybody trust them anyways?

        • DBG says:

          ok name 3 times Israel has been caught ‘faking’ attacks.

        • Hostage says:

          ok name 3 times Israel has been caught ‘faking’ attacks.

          The Labor Zionists denied:
          *Responsibility for the Patria bombing. For years they blamed the victims for scuttling their own vessel.
          *Unit 101 involvement in planning and conducting the Qibya massacre. They claimed it was a spontaneous reprisal carried out by civilians.
          *The Lavon Affair. Self explanatory.
          *Initiating the Six Day War. They falsely claimed in their initial comments to the Security Council that Israel had come under attack.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Ooh! I’ll start!

          1) Lavon affair

          Who’s got the next one?

    • Remax says:

      However, a senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a Palestinian ICC recourse “would be worrying, given that it would demonstrate that they seek to perpetuate conflict instead of seeking peace.”

      But the official also believed that “Israel has little to worry about in this case as it has not ratified the Treaty of Rome recognising the authority of the ICC, and is not therefore bound to implement its rulings.”

      link to zawya.com

      Ah, I see, they don’t want all their dirty linen aired in public. Makes sense. Thanks, jh.

      • Hostage says:

        But the official also believed that “Israel has little to worry about in this case as it has not ratified the Treaty of Rome recognising the authority of the ICC, and is not therefore bound to implement its rulings.”

        Who cares if Israel implements its rulings? The overwhelming majority of its 117 member states will. Scores of them have extradition treaties with non member states. When the Rome Statute entered into effect, Supreme Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein was the Attorney General. He warned that the decision not to ratify would reduce the danger represented by the court, but could not eliminate it. That was back when there were only a handful of member states.

        Deputy Attorney General Rachel Sukar explained that non-ratification does not provide immunity from prosecution by the court and that the court also does not recognize diplomatic immunity, so even a sitting prime minister could be indicted. See A-G: New Hague court may indict settlers for war crimes. That is especially true when the swaggering idiot approves construction of thousands of new units in illegal settlements before jumping on a plane to lobby EU members states to vote against the Palestinian bid in the UN.

      • john h says:

        Like you Remax, I’m new here, and it took me a little while to figure out if I am answering someone I click on their “reply” before I write. If you had this time, yours would have appeared just under mine and before eljay, rather than here. Cheers.

  10. And we have Bill Clinton today stating that Palestinian statehood will not change the “reality of the ME”, and simultaneously arguing against it for that reason.

    If Bill Clinton is correct, then why Israel’s apoplectic fit about it?

  11. homingpigeon says:

    Just when I am bewildered by all the news read this. Now how will we explain this to a refugee? Ya LaTiif, Ya Daliil al Mutahayyireen!

    link to ca.news.yahoo.com

    TEHACHAPI, Calif. – Most people have been on a plane with a few jackasses before. But 10 dozen donkeys on one flight?
    One hundred and twenty donkeys have arrived at a sanctuary in California on a plane from Hawaii chartered by the Humane Society of the United States.
    Tracy Miller, manager of Peaceful Valley Donkey Rescue in Tehachapi, said Sunday the donkeys are “none the worse for wear” after the long flight and a two-hour drive Saturday that followed it.
    They are descendants of donkeys brought to Hawaii’s Big Island to work coffee plantations then cast aside when they became obsolete.
    Recent drought conditions have brought hundreds of donkeys down from the mountains into developed Hawaii, where they have disrupted traffic and made other trouble for humans, inspiring a search for new homes.