The following is Eric Yoffe's blogpost "I prefer to live with Jews" for the Jerusalem Post. Yoffie is the outgoing president of the Union for Reform Judaism, one of the leading Reform Jewish organizations in the United States. The piece is short, and sorry I couldn't figure out an excerpt, the whole thing seemed worth posting. Be sure to check out the comments:
I have a friend who is a leader of a rightwing Zionist organization. While working with him to oppose the UN resolution on Palestinian statehood, he asked me why I am so passionate in my commitment to a two-state solution.
My answer: I have fought for Israel my entire life. Perhaps someday I will decide to live there. And when that happens I want to be living among Jews. Not entirely, but primarily.
His response: How can you say that?
My response: Ze’ev Maghen, in his book John Lennon and the Jews, talks about “preferential love.” That is what we are talking about here. I care about humankind, but I love my own group a bit more. I am more comfortable with them. I care more about them, just as I care more about my family than other families. Without a two-state solution, Israel will not longer be a state for my group; it will be a bi-national state without a clear Jewish identity. That is not the kind of place where I, or most Israeli Jews, will want to live.
His response: Are you saying you don’t want too many Arabs in the Jewish state?
My response: Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying.
His response: What do you say to your Arab friends?
My response: I tell them that just as I want the Jewish state to be organized around my group, I assume that they want a Palestinian state to be organized around their group. Fine. So be it. In the Middle East, there is little to suggest that other arrangements can work.
His response: You are a bigot. We on the right are perfectly prepared to live with Arabs.
My response: In the first place, I don’t apologize for my views because I don’t apologize for Zionism. . .
Zionism came into being to create a state in which a total Jewish experience would be possible—a place where Judaism belongs to the public domain and Hebrew is the language of everyday. This requires a large Jewish majority. In the second place, I don’t believe you. You say you are prepared to live with Arabs, but the conduct of too many rightwing settlers – the people you call your allies – suggests otherwise. Living with Arabs not only means being around Arabs – after all, I recognize that Israel has, and will always have, an Arab minority – but it means living with them on equal terms. And your movement has not fought for the equal rights of Israeli Arabs, as I have; as for West Bank Arabs, nearly everything you have supported over the years indicates that you want them to remain without a state, without rights, and subservient to Jews.
His response: You are changing the subject. I repeat: you are a bigot.
My response: I repeat: Zionism is about creating a country for Jews and a democratic framework in which Jewish life can flourish. Movements that do not want to do this should not call themselves Zionist.
We then returned to the work of opposing the UN resolution. I did so because of my fear that it would not help in the creation of a Palestinian state, and he did so – I suspect – because of his fear that it would.
Read the comments here.
Sounds like Yoffe would be fast friends with David (“I prefer to live with white folks”) Duke.
This well reflects my experience in US based advocacy for Palestine. In the end the most vehement opposers of Palestinian rights are liberal Zionist, many of whom are reform Jews. I could never understand why.
In the end the most vehement opposers of Palestinian rights are liberal Zionist, many of whom are reform Jews. I could never understand why.
Because they worked with such pride to end racism in the US to the point of claiming they led the early civil rights movement. So it’s: Been there. Done that.
[I'm being sarcastic.]
Zionism is the idea that only Jewish people have true rights (birthrights) in Palestine, liberalism is among other things the belief that rights are not at all affected by race or religion. The opinion of lib Zios is that Zionism is the grand exception, operative only in Palestine, that proves the liberal rule for every other context. So it appears to them that by asserting that Palestinians too have true rights in Palestine you are removing the reason not only for their Zio but also for their lib beliefs.
Mr. Yoffe is interesting because his 2s-ism hovers on the edge of believing that Palestinians have rights comparable to those of Jewish people, though he hasn’t yet drawn the logical conclusions. These are that everything done to create and maintain the Zio state has been wrong and that he is supporting the suppression of the rights of millions of people purely to gratify a feeling of uneasiness that some people have when not with ‘their own kind’, a preference of emotion over right which is monstrous.
His friend is right: He IS a bigot. He wants a Jewish-supremacist state, “primarily” devoid of non-Jews. No heart mousetrap in that man!
Just so. Yoffie is trying to be candid, but what he is refusing to say is that Zionism is bigotry, racist by definition.
I get tired of reading all this nonsense about ARABS and JEWS as if you are an ARAB you by default cannot be Jewish. What he seems to be really implying is he doesn’t like living with ARABS, people originating in the middle east but would rather be living with Europeans or Russians or North Americans. Somewhere in all this conflict it seems clearer and clearer that this has more to do of where you come from than who you are.
Is this a war between Jews, Muslims and Christians or a war between European, Russian, North American “White people who happen to be jewish” and people of darker skin originating in the middle east, Africa, orient who are also jewish but raised in an arabic speaking society.
Whoever said Zionism is not racism does not understand the real conflict…
I think you hit it on the head, BradAllen.
The irony is that around 1/3 of all Jews have Arab DNA and most of these Arab Jews live in Israel. Of course, if you are Jewish you are automatically Jewish by nation so they just kind of ignore the fact that they oppress their distant cousins and erroneously call them their ‘mortal enemies’
Zionists always make it about Arabs and Jews and quote scripture to support it. They make no distinction between a Muslim or an Arab and falsely believe that all the Arabized independent nations are one in the same (ex. Hasbaraists saying ‘why doesn’t Lebanon make the Palestinian refugees into citizens? They’re all Arabs!)
The very fact that an Arab can be Jewish renders their argument invalid. Israel’s Jewish population comes in all colors and shapes and sizes. African Jews with dark skin, Arab Jews, Jews with blonde hair and blue eyes, redheads, dark-haired German Jews, Turkish Jews, Persian Jews, Russian Jews, etc. Of course the more different you look the more discrimination you are subject to. There are also those stories of the Beta Israel sterilization and mysterious dead Yemen Jewish babies that indicate inter-Jewish ethnic cleansing might be carried out in secret.
“Jews with blonde hair and blue eyes”
Palestinians with blonde hair and blue eyes.. link to upload.wikimedia.org I’m sure I could find a better picture if I wasn’t too lazy to look beyond wikipedia.
Especially Palestine has been a melting pot, the Romans settled there, a significant number of Greek, tradespeople from all over.
One thing I don’t get is why people, even on MW, classify Palestinians as “brown-skinned people”. That’s like saying Palestinians are “Muslim people”. Might apply for a significant number of them, still leaves out a significant number of them too, doesn’t it. Understanding the importance of diversity in the Palestinian population is exactly as important as considering the diversity of the Jewish one, too bad I often see the former being neglected. I feel this plays into the hands of the zios and the like who would all too much want to make us believe that Palestinians are indeed one monolithic mass of “foreign Muslims”, which of course is bullshit. I wonder how many more Americans would support Palestine if the plight of the Palestinian CHRISTIANS and their – for the most part very good – relationship with Palestinians of different beliefs (Muslim, Baha’i, atheist, agnostic etc) was highlighted more. Granted, they might be supporting them for all the wrong reasons, but it’s gotta be an improvement over the way it currently is.
“There are also those stories of the Beta Israel sterilization and mysterious dead Yemen Jewish babies that indicate inter-Jewish ethnic cleansing might be carried out in secret.”
I’d be interested in further information on this, if you have links.
a friend from tel aviv once shamelessly related a random story about a class he taught, to middle school age jewish israelis (israeli jews predominantly, or perhaps exclusively, as education is very segregated).
a mizrahi kid was talking sh*t about the arabs, and he told the kid, in a gotcha attitude, “YOU are an arab”. but he was not pointing out the kid’s racism, and the lack of self-awareness…. he was confirming anti-arab sentiments, but let the poor (racist) kid know, he was also of arab descent.
the racism/bigotry/hatred in israeli society cuts so many ways, in so many directions, the place would risk a practical civil war if they were not united in hating arabs/palestinians/muslims/iranians.
and also, regarding zionism versus “living with jews”, the zionist goal was a JEWISH power structure (state), not simply the ability for jews to live with their own. family in sharon, MA lives predominantly with jews. an orthodox aunt lives in a NJ town almost exclusively jewish, and surrounded by some blessed magical string or something so they can fudge rules on the sabbath. i live next to brookline, MA, largely jewish. forget parts of NYC.
it is all about having a jewish power structure, RUN exclusively by jews (the arabs are for show, and chomsky says the rule has been that if arab knesset members would swing a vote, the vote would not be called…. it is about jewish decision making, not real democracy; are arabs ever in the coalition?). oddly, i think with ~40% of jews here in the USA, and ~40% in israel, and the clear power of the american jewish community and AIPAC etc., the zionists should just accept that US represents a de facto jewish power structure itself, but multi-ethnic. the zionists got two states… but if they cannot check israeli arrogance, and stand for a semblance of justice, they stand to loose one or both of these jewish power structures…
You are absolutely correct. It is pure Orientalism at it’s finest — or worst!
Vladimir Jabotinsky, the founder of revisionist Zionism, insisted in his 1930 essay “The Hebrew Accent” that “there are experts who think that we ought to bring our accent closer to the Arabic accent. But this is a mistake.
Although Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages, it does not mean
that our Fathers spoke in [an] ‘Arabic accent.’. . . We are European
and our musical taste is European, the taste of Rubinstein, Mendelssohn,
and Bizet.”
Expressing his anxiety about Moroccan Jews weakening the cultural
metamorphosis of Ashkenazi Jews into Europeans, David Ben
Gurion stated: “We do not want Israelis to become Arabs. We are in
duty bound to fight against the spirit of the Levant, which corrupts
individuals and societies, and preserve the authentic Jewish values as
they crystallized in the [European] Diaspora.”
The source for the above quotes are:
Joseph Massad, The Persistence of the Palestinian Question, Cultural Critique, No. 59 (Winter, 2005), pp. 1-23
My favorite is the Moshe Dayan wannabe (alias One-Eye).
Honest, anyway.
Personally, I prefer not to live with more than a few Jews. En masse, I find them annoying. And Israelis are worse.
“En masse, I find them annoying.”
I bet that if you met me, I could reduce that number considerably.
They’re like jalapeños. A few make things spicy, but too many is too many.
This, of course, is a matter of taste, nothing more.
and let me clarify (as perhaps this joke, which can be antisemitic, depending on the context, might be held up on moderation)-
i find positive and negative things about every religion, identity, country, city, and culture/subculture i interact with. i actually found that my favorite bar scene, in the world, might be tel aviv (specifically florentin). plus israeli food is amazingly diverse and good, as the country was constituted from people from all over.
but israel is an oddity, as drawing from european jewry, it took a particular slice of european society, with certain predominant roles/occupations/outlooks/educational levels and threw them together in a single country. hence in israel, especially among the ashkenazi, there is almost a disproportionate number of people with a certain mindset; dare i say too many at times. they fit well in the diaspora into the fabric of larger nations, but in israel, i think it tipped the scales. hence in israel there is an overwhelming level of frenetic activity… it’s positive in that it yields some abstract zest for life, creativity, achievement, education and economic activity. but it is also overwhelming, as it is often intense, sometimes arrogant, and hyper-competitive.
i guess that is what the elderly swedish jewish lady was encapsulating in her joke. and i have 2 israeli friends who actually cannot take israel anymore. they live abroad, and can only take israel in small doses, for a variety of reasons. for them the high concentration of jews… but more specifically the high concentration of israeli jews, is too much.
but eee loves it despite the negatives (which for him there may not be any negatives), and so to each his own.
wow, i think my joke got moderated… first time getting a comment moderated here. well, here it goes again….
this was told to me in tel aviv, from a swedish descent jewish israeli. his jewish grandmother told him this joke, and i thought it was a little funny, as israel was quite intense….
“the jews are like manure. you spread them around and they make things grow, but pile them together and they start to smell like sh*t”
[this is NOT some sick morbid WW2 antisemitic joke, she is drawing an analogy between manure, and jews in the diaspora vs. jews being concentrated in israel]
she was actually being “prosemitic” (in one part), and noting the beneficial effect jews have had in various places, such as amsterdam. they often served as a trader class, with international connections, and their presence has had notable positive effects on various places (in many areas, but often economics). then she is assumedly alluding to some negative cultural and societal aspects manifested in israel, as so many diaspora jews were all of a sudden thrown into one pressure cooker. i hope this is not moderated again, as i think it was misunderstood. i found the joke very self-deprecating, with an interesting subtext coming from a lady who had lived in two very different words- scandinavia, then israel.
“I prefer not to live with more than a few Jews. En masse, I find them annoying.”
ROFL
The great unspoken/unspeakable question is this: assuming that Jews have a right to a predominantly Jewish state inside Mandatory Palestine — how large (in territory) such a state are they entitled to?
My view is that the more purely ethnically-uniform a Jewish state a Zionist claims a right to, the smaller it should be. The whole population of Israel (and not just its Jewish population) could live within New York City, which has an area far, far smaller than pre-1967 Israel has.
Why small? Because they are excluding Palestinian Arabs from that space, a space in which (some) lived for many generations.
If exclusion (in the sense of displacement of original inhabitants) is to be allowed, then it must also be minimized.
Let “Israel” denote a small, New York city-sized place around Tel Aviv and Western Jerusalem (with a “right-of-return” for all Jews), and let the rest of Palestine become either a (single) bi-national multi-ethnic non-confessional state for all its citizens, Jews and Palestinians alike (with a right of return for Palestinian refugees-of-1948) or two states, one as described and one purely Palestinian-Arab (as Israel would be purely Jewish).
The “Jewish state” should be limited to the territory actually purchased by the Jewish Agency from the legal owners during the pre-state period. All the rest is illegally occupied.
Potsherd2 – I don’t think I’d go as far as legitimizing purchases from absentee land owners then evicting the people living on the land.
It was the law at the time. It may not have been the most just law, but we can’t make up the laws we would rather have. Even today in the US, tenants can be evicted by new owners.
otoh, there is evidence that some of the purchases did not in fact conform to the requirements of the Ottoman law. Such sales would have to be voided and the current tenants evicted.
Living with your own is fine. Expecting the rest of the world to pay for it, not so much.
Nor expecting the rest of the world to accommodate it, either.
And allowing so much of your agenda to be superimposed on the decision making / opinion shaping entities in our own country to the point that it can be thrown about unchallenged that Israel and the US have parallel if not identical agendas and needs. Even if that were true at some point (big, big *if* btw), how would you even recognize those times your needs and agendas seriously diverged and effectively separated your own nation from the consequences of their choices, when everything is geared to propping up the fallacy tat we are somehow jointed at te hip?
Talk about an albatross.
“Living with your own is fine. Expecting the rest of the world to pay for it, not so much.”
Exactly.
Who cares if some or even all Jews want to live strictly with their own kind, I don’t care.
Lots of people ‘prefer’ to live among their own kind,whatever their kind is, for whatever reasons.
But no one owes them a country to do that in.
“Among their own” doesn’t even have to necessarily be racist, as in ‘against’ others.
Jews could have set up their own ‘communes’ in the countries they live in like the Mennonites or Amish who aren’t ‘hostile” to others if all they wanted was to live with their own kind.
No, Israel is about more than simply wanting to live together or even for ptoection, it’s a hostile to ‘everyone else’ ideology with a big ‘V’ for vengeance and G for greed and power.
Don’t say I said this, but frankly, I have always felt that being in a small minority was one of the privileges of Judaism.
What incredible damage Zionism is doing to Judaism and Jewishness. If you can’t stand as an individual, you can’t make it as a group. Well, unless, of course, you go around the world looking for people to bully.
I’m not so comfortable with the idea of living with my own. What is it but building a ghetto?
“I’m not so comfortable with the idea of living with my own. What is it but building a ghetto?”
Sorta depends, don’t it, on whether you see yourself as one of the “leaders” in the ghetto, free to do what you want with no outside interference, or whether you see yourself as the victim of those people, with no recourse.
Eric Yoffie wrote:
“Without a two-state solution, Israel will not longer be a state for my group; it will be a bi-national state without a clear Jewish identity. That is not the kind of place where I, or most Israeli Jews, will want to live.”
And here is Eric Yoffie not long ago about *American* anti-immigrationists: “anti-immigrant hysteria has reached new heights; the language used every day to describe the 12 million immigrants who are here illegally is vicious, hateful, and utterly shameful.”
So here, I gotta believe, must be the secret little personal mantra of Eric Yoffie:
One rule for thee
Another for me
With the explanation that be
Is that I’m Chosen, you see
… You miserable stupid little goyim
No wonder that the nightmare of folks like Yoffie is a resurgence of American patriotism.
That is not the kind of place where I, or most Israeli Jews, will want to live.”
ha! he can’t say “That is not the kind of place where I, want to live.” he has to preface it with ‘will’ want to live. for if he doesn’t want to live in a multi cultural society why is he living here?
This is the most offensive and unfair type of place holder. A Palestinian Arab with an actual and established *recent* and essentially unbroken history with the land (until being illegally and imorally run off of it – if not being killed outright in a murderous attempt to severe the connection), has no right of return because…um…because of Catch-22 (i.e. those that took it fear any demographic shift that reduces their control), but any Jew on the planet at any time has a right of return without expiration date, even when not seriously considering acting on that option.
It’s as if Israel was an airliner or cruise ship that will not release stand-by seating or accomodations to a Palestinian Arab (that has an actual investment in the ship or aircraft), and would rather fly/sail with empty spaces than allow a Palestinian Arab to justifiably claim desired “passage” (the “proof” being patiently persistent from the “stand-by” area and ready to board once allowed to do so), than risk the mere potential for some Jew from wherever, deciding whenever that they *may* want to book passage so it is their ultimate right as a victimized minority to hold these spots open in perpetuity.
Sticking with the analogy, their main fear is the change in passenger tribal ratios will inevitably doom the entire passage as they cannot be trusted to exercise majority rule, but the favored tribe (favored by “them” and chosen by no less than god – or G_d, if you will) is so accomplished and skillful, at the risk of hubris might even say considers themselves so superior, that their mastery of minority rule is proof enough of their contentions.
Their carrier’s slogan would be somewhere along the lines of, “We consider it when none of *our* people get hurt or inconvenienced a *perfect”* safety record because we know you do too!
We know you have many choices in nation-states (at least those who count do – those who don’t? Sucks to be you) to choose from, and appreciate you enabling the worst and most heavy-handed aspects of ours, even when merely a theoretical construct and you have no intention of moving here whatsoever. And we value your willingness to do harm to your host nation in pursuit of maintaining our own hegemony.
ISRAEL – We are the people who count, and the people who count who counts! (Going against us is the same as going against G_d) *
* True fact! – it says so in our book!
>> * True fact! – it says so in our book! <<
True fact, that book says lots of inconvenient things. Especially inconvenient to all those Israeli pretenders who deny its author or misuse his name to justify what they have done.
Their Israel is no promised land or safe haven but an idol that's become their golden calf.
I have fought for Israel my entire life. Perhaps someday I will decide to live there. And when that happens I want to be living among Jews.
what we have here is a person who has chosen, as his priority, a life contrary to the one is likes to keep on reserve in case he changes his mind someday. when he says ‘when that happens’ what he means is when he perhaps changes his mind about where he wants to live, he wants that place to be free of us. the same ‘us’ he’s chosen to spend his life living amongst and the same ‘us’ who, as a matter of course, regard him as our equal for we are inclusive. we regard him as one of us, an american.
why should this opinion of his matter to me? in a world where so many people cannot even achieve their first choice, to be living with equal rights where they live in the here and now..why should i care about preserving the ethnicity of a place he perhaps may want to go someday?
Exactly.
Of course, if he decides he wants to live in a place made for Jews, He doesn’t have to go to Israel. He’s got the other choice.
link to jewishmag.com
I feel exactly the same. I want all my affairs handled exclusively by Jews, and wouldn’t trust anybody except Bernie Madoff with my investments.
And for baby sitters, nobody but the Nussbaums!
As usual, doing the research after the comment, I think maybe Steinberg is the babysitter. Phil, I’m sure, remembers the case, it was extensively reported in NY.
Mooser: “I…wouldn’t trust anybody except Bernie Madoff with my investments.”
Don’t tell us who your accountant is.
libra, you know what they say: “Jesus saves, Moses invests”
The best investment I ever made was in my accountant, tax person and financial adviser, that is, my wife.
Israelis and Zionist Jews seem contented to operate under the maxim that Joseph Heller used to define Catch-22. He said, “Catch-22 means that people have the right to do to you anything which you cannot prevent them from doing to you.” (From cable TV’s “Great Books” series – premium History Channel?)
It’s effectively “the shorter” even for the Hasbara standard talking points (i.e. They suck, you suck, everything sucks).
“Might makes right” is one phrasing, but I think the nuances of Catch-22 does a better job highlighting the surreal aspect of it. I used to think Heller should have added “people *think* they have the right”, but have since realized that it’s not about thinking you can or can’t, it’s doing it and getting away with it, as in the concept of history is written by the victors.
There is no Arab state I would like to live in. There is nothing racist about saying this. There is also no Russian state I would be happy to live in. Or Chinese or Indian for that matter. I would not like to live in Singapore either or Germany or Switzerland. And my list is very long. I want to live in a Jewish state because that is where I feel comfortable.
I agree with you eee. Your argument is not racist but in light of your other comments about Palestinians and Arabs, I think you harbor racist feelings and opinions.
“And my list is very long. I want to live in a Jewish state because that is where I feel comfortable.”
And God forbid a Jew should ever be uncomfortable! In fact, isn’t that what God said when He kicked us out of the Garden of Eden…. oh, sorry, I forgot, you’re an atheist. That’s right, to you the Scriptures have no significance except as a land deed.
Good lord, what a freakin pathetic Jewish joke you are, “eee”.
Mooser,
I am sure that everyday you ask yourself what to do in order to make yourself as uncomfortable as possible. I am no different than 5 million other Jews in Israel. Perhaps Mooser it is time for you to reach the conclusion that you are not a Jew? I certainly don’t view you as a Jew. Why don’t you take Taxi’s advice and just be a human?
And by the way, the Bible is not a land deed. A land deed in Israel is a legal document respected by the courts, just like in the US. The only “right” (whatever that is) I have to my house is because I have a deed that will stand in court, just like you in the US.
You’re very confused about what I said eee. I ain’t asking you folks to discard your religious label like a bad habit – I just find it annoyingly limiting that it has to prefix EVERYTHING in your lives!
You yourself have an acute case of tribalism eee: the type that rejects even its own and turns violently against them while smiling. Weird kinda tribalism you practice eee.
And besides, isn’t tribalism essentially a kinda micro communism in action?
It just don’t sound like a modern person can reach their full potential while willfully chaining themselves to an archaic tribal structure.
Why the hell should he allow an immoral, illogical, sophist like you to dictate Jewishness?
You go on to say that land ownership is defined by land deeds.
Israel is founded on stolen Palestinian land, and communities.
link to api.ning.com
You have already said something like, ‘Israeli Statehood is legitimate because it won the 48′ War.’
Everyone here knows, from your constant chest-thumping, that you believe in might over right.
Zionism has no moral high-ground. Israel exists because it ETHNICALLY CLEANSED the Arab majority.
Here’s a video on ‘Ethical Individualism’:
link to youtube.com
Taxi,
I know that is why Jews are not so successful, it is because they can’t reach their full potential while willfully chaining themselves to an archaic tribal structure. We will just have to learn to live with our limitations.
As for Phil and Adam, if they are not cultural Jews, what are they? Religious Jews? No. Zionist Jews? No. So what is left except for this weird contraption “cultural Jew” that you rightly ridicule? You are right, they view themselves as humans and only marginally as Jews while for me the Jewish component is much more important.
Unfortunately, Israel does not respect the land deeds of the Palestinians it evicted in 1948, when it confiscated their land.
eee,
Ever entertained the idea that you guys coulda done EVEN better for yourselves by allowing more individuals to blossom and flourish?
I don’t think for a minute you know who you really are, let alone Adam or Phil. Your ideas about judaism are more akin to a cult than to a spiritual persuasion.
eee, your brand of Judaism is a cult and a nationalism. Nothing more.
Here I though, religion was for everyone who found some truth in it.
For you, it’s a weapon because YOU are a WEAK, petulant, child.
Taxi,
You mean we could have assimilated ages ago, right Taxi? Because if everyone is a Jew, no one is a Jew. How is the fact that I am Jewish not allowing someone else to flourish? One is not connected to the other. People all over the world flourish based on what they do, not on what the Jews do.
Taxi, I really don’t care what you think about me, because thanks to Israel, there is nothing much you can do about it.
Wow, eee takes the Spanish Inquisition and turns it on its head. (Jews are still the ones in the hot seat though, apparently.)
eee,
I wonder if your children will be “thanking israel” in five years’ time.
Then why the hell are you here? We aren’t on a Zionist blog. You came to MW, and are a joke.
“I certainly don’t view you as a Jew.”
I knew I was on the right path, but thanks for the confirmation.
I must admit there is one area in which Israel does beat all comers. Are you sure Ponce de Leon’s waterworks aren’t located there? You seem to have discovered the secret of eternal youth, or at least learned how to prolong a screwy adolescence. You are fifty-six (or so you say) but sound like a 16 year old from 1950′s Mississippi
“I certainly don’t view you as a Jew.”
So says the atheist.
” Because if everyone is a Jew, no one is a Jew.”
You know, I’ve never heard a better, more succinct description of Israel. Thanks, “eee”, and you may be secure in the knowledge that I will use it constantly.
“I am sure that everyday you ask yourself what to do in order to make yourself as uncomfortable as possible”
I used to, yes, but now-a-days I don’t have to waste time wondering, I know! I just come over to Mondoweiss, to see what sort of asinine blather you’re putting down today. Believe me, the feeling of discomfort that there are “Jews” like you in charge of a country of their own is better than self-flagellation, or even watching TV, and a whole lot less exertion
This Iraqi Jew saw what Zionist Jews did to poison the standing of Jews in Arab countries to further their own agendas -
link to inminds.com
~ Naeim Giladi — THE JEWS OF IRAQ
debunked ~ link to highbeam.com
You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. “The Princess Bride”
You provide a pay site with a contention without substantiation and I guess that because the source is a Jew not skeptical of any Zionist motivations that it is acceptable. “Confirmation” of this is implied by declaring it falls in the “blood libel” category.
So does the “blood libel” of poisoning the wells, except there are official Israeli sources to corroborate this as a tactic against the town of Acre. Your abuse of the language is at least as severe as your abuse of the Palestinians because you would expand the definition of “blood libel” to include whatever it is that you’ve put forth the gargantuan effort to deny, regardless of facts that could be determined beyond the filter of bias.
I ask all to join me in this thought exercise? What would be the MOST dangerous weapon conceivable in regards to Israel’s status quo and undeniably an existential threat to the very existence of the nation state?
The answer would be a “way back machine”, like a real world Tivo machine, that could go back and verify, let’s pick an arbitrary period of one year, whether the myriad of “my word against yours” claims could e substantiated, or in fact were part of a regular tapestry of lies. I don’t pretend that the Palestinians, desperate for any movement in their favor, would be shown to be free of their own misrepresentations, but I would hazard a guess that so many of the disputes dismissed on the basis of not much more than “they lie, we don’t” would hinge on the fact lies are routinely utilized as they work.
Israel (as would any corrupt nation hiding their misdeeds behind a veil of secrecy because they have the power to declare “truth” and facts by fiat), rather than accept the impartiality of a device analogous to the NFL using the replay cameras as a means for a team to challenge a call, would pull out every stop to see that this technology is destroyed, neutralized, or controlled.
Even more so if the technology could go back further than a year. Even if it was a “read-only” view; you couldn’t change anything, just observe/verify. This hatred of facts not as separate from their agenda but rather a concept that can be quantified as good or bad based on its alignment with the official narrative.
[for illustration, an excerpt of an exchange involving Isaac Asimov and Elie Wiesel from his book "I, Asimov" - link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com ]
[begin excerpt]I once heard a lady speak passionately about the Gentiles who had done nothing to save the Jews of Europe. “You just can’t trust them”, she claimed.
I let it pass for a while, and then I suddenly asked: “And what are you doing to help the Blacks achieve their civil rights?”
“Listen”, she retorted. “I have enough problems of my own”.
And I said: “That’s exactly what the Gentiles of Europe said”. I saw a complete lack of comprehension in her face. She couldn’t see what I was getting at. What can we do about it? The whole world seems to be permanently waving a banner that reads: “Freedom! … but not for others”.
I publicly expressed my view on this only once, and in delicate circumstances. It was in May 1977. I was invited to a round-table discussion whose participants included Elie Wiesel, who survived the Holocaust and hasn’t spoken about anything else since. That day, he irritated me by claiming that you couldn’t trust academics, or technicians, because they had helped make possible the Holocaust. What a sweeping generalization that is! And precisely the kind of remark that antisemites might make: “I don’t trust Jews, because once, Jews crucified my Savior”.
I let the others argue for a moment while I brooded over my resentment; then, unable to contain myself any longer, I spoke up: “Mr. Wiesel, you’re wrong; the fact that a group of people has suffered appalling persecution does not mean it is inherently good and innocent. All that the persecution proves is that this group was in a position of weakness. If the Jews were in a position of strength, who knows if they wouldn’t become persecutors?”
To which Wiesel replied, very angrily: “Give me one example of the Jews persecuting anyone!”
Naturally, I was expecting this. “At the time of the Maccabees, in the second century BCE, John Hyrcanus of Judea conquered Edom and gave the Edomites the choice of conversion to Judaism, or death. Not being idiots, the Edomites converted, but afterwards they were still treated as inferiors because even though they had become Jews, they were still originally Edomites”.
Wiesel, even more upset, said: “There is no other example.”
“There is no other period in history where Jews have exercised power”, I replied. “The only time they had it, they behaved just like the others.”
That put an end to the discussion. I would add however that the audience was entirely on the side of Elie Wiesel.
I could have gone further. Alluded to the fate of the Canaanites at the hands of the Israelites in the time of David and Solomon, for example. And if I’d been able to predict the future, I could have mentioned what is happening in Israel today. The Jews of America would have a clearer understanding of the situation if they could imagine the roles reversed: with Palestinians governing the country and Jews throwing stones at them with the energy of despair.
[end excerpt]
Jerusalem Post. Riiiiight.
“debunked” Ah, yes. The technical term for disputed.
“the fact that a group of people has suffered appalling persecution does not mean it is inherently good and innocent. All that the persecution proves is that this group was in a position of weakness. If the Jews were in a position of strength, who knows if they wouldn’t become persecutors?”
To which Wiesel replied, very angrily: “Give me one example of the Jews persecuting anyone!”
That first line–just because a people is persecuted doesn’t mean it is inherently good and innocent–is one of those utterly obvious points that some people manage to miss. Wiesel sure has.
I want to live in a Jewish state because that is where I feel comfortable.
And these folks want to live in “British state” because that’s where they feel comfortable: link to youtube.com
You shall be known by the company you keep. -N49.
Which of course cuts both ways, eee.
Just to be provocative: maybe all the expulsions from countries over the centuries were because the host country citizens felt as you do: they did not want their countries remade into something they did not want to live with? Ever think of that?
BTW, eee, you’re talking about culture, not a State.
In fact, Zionists invaded an Arab “state,” ethically cleansed the Arabs so you could take their houses, and it’s the same state you’re so happy living in right now.
I’m sick of all people who incessantly identify themselves with a religious tag – including the secular Phil and Adam who refer to themselves as ‘cultural jews’.
What the heck is THAT?!!
Can no angle on life be seen WITHOUT some kinda ‘jewish’ prism for you guys?
Can I go around calling myself a ‘cultural’ agnostic without being laughed at and accused of perverse levels of pseudo intellectualism? Grandiose narcissistic absurdism!
I reckon it’s PRECISELY this obsession with religious ‘tag-ism’ that’s creating conflict – and more importantly, creating a de-sensitiving of the ‘other’ where even self-declared ‘liberal’ jews prefer to live only with other kindsa jews even crazy apocalyptic rabbis, instead of living next-door to an average decent goy. And let’s not forget here the frothing right-wing jews who prefer an Apartheid system to an inclusive democracy. So like either way you slice it, the religious tag ‘jewish’ seems to set strict boundaries for all you guys’ behavior, be you liberal or religious jews.
From the article:
“His response: Are you saying you don’t want too many Arabs in the Jewish state?
My response: Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying.
His response: What do you say to your Arab friends?”.
TAXI’s butting-in response: Well heck there’s friends and then there’s PREFERENTIAL FRIENDS my dears, based of course of YOUR religious tag.
Yeah I’ll confess I practice ‘preferential’ friendships too, BUT NOT BASED ON A RELIGIOUS TAG, but based on the quality of ‘niceness’ of the person.
Sorry folks not meaning to offend nobody here but sometimes it seems that the self-attached religio-tribal label of ‘jew’ is a rusty old ball-and-chain: the biggest obstacle to your progress and your to your peace of mind.
Couldn’t agree more with Taxi. Really Phil and Adam. Stop calling yourself Jews and get with the program. You are not Jews, just humans, don’t you know that?
I don’t think you’re in a position to point the finger at Phil or Adam. You’re included in my summation eee: go re-read the line that includes the word “frothing” in it – that one’s yours.
A little food for thought regarding the bigger picture:
link to philosophyoffreedom.com
Taxi,
I am in a position to point my finger at them as I don’t hold their strange positions. I think universalism is BS. I think saying you care for everybody the same way means you care for nobody. I never saw progressives do anything useful on the international front. They did not stop one genocide, they did not stop one tyrant, they did not stop one famine. Your philosophy is so useless, it doesn’t allow you to accomplish anything in the real world.
I think tribalism should be cherished as it has great benefits. For example, raising kids in a tribe is much easier than raising them on your own, especially for single parents.
NO eee YOU ARE NOT in a position to point the finger at Phil and Adam, simply because you are a proven hypocrite zionist who hasn’t got a clue about raising a BETTER future generation.
And you’re STILL confused mister – yes I linked to a video but I NEVER said I was a ‘universalist’, though I do find some of what they say most reasonable and fair. Universalists are pacifists and I assure you eee I AIN’T A PACIFIST! You talk about Universalism like you’re an ‘expert’ on the subject when really, clearly, you’re full of BS. How much does universalism have in common with your zionism then – do please pontificate, I’d love to hear all about it, LOL!
Okay so let me just say it and be done with this nag: eee you’ve NEVER been a tribesman – a real one – and NO being in the idf doesn’t count as being in a tribe. Now the Bedouin in the Negev for instance, they’re a REAL tribe, living their ancient traditions – whereas you live in one of those ugly zealot-only tenements built on occupied Palestinian land, fenced-in in more ways than one. You’ve simply attached yourself to a POLITICAL IDEOLOGY called zionism, that’s all you’ve done in actual practice, eee. I don’t believe for a second you’re an authentic jew. A real zionist yes, but a real jew? Not according to my experience of jewish people who unlike yourself, usually don’t spout naziesque poetry every chance they get.
You’re intellectually challenged and morally puny. You suck at realism and philosophy and you are intellectually rigid because your brains have been fossilized by the dogmas and myths of zionism.
Some traditions and aspects of the old tribes yes are good and valid, but let’s face it, a heck of a lot of stuff is just superstitious, xenophobic, and downright closed-minded. But I guess you really like those bits huh eee?
The world used to be full of tribes. No more is this the case eee. Ask yourself why huh?! So much for your pursuit of (pseudo) tribalism!
I got news for you: the world has already left you behind. The future belongs to the global EVERYBODY, not the fenced-in few.
I find it easier to indulge and tolerate Phil and Adam’s abstract ‘cultural’ jewishness than I do your disgustingly racist zionism.
To me they’re jews, whereas you’re a zionist.
I love hearing the Israeli perspective. It takes a village to raise a child, but apparently, it takes a whole, manufactured from whole cloth nation to brainwash that child.
I think tribalism should be cherished as it has great benefits.
Tribalism was a social mechanism to get through the Bronze Age. To persist with this anachronistic mode of self-organisation is to drink the backwash of history. -N49.
Taxi,
You are hilarious as you cannot see the reality in front of you. I am second generation born in Israel. I am part of the Jewish tribe that you want to abolish in your fantasies. The world is full of tribes, it is just that you are unwilling to acknowledge them because that will bring your worldview crashing down. It is like Phil believing that the US model is the way of the future when in fact in most of the rest of the world the exact opposite is happening.
As for being intellectually rigid, I think those that dismiss the views and arguments of millions of Jews worldwide deserve that title. Listen to yourself and your supporters on this blog. While I take what Palestinians say very seriously and respect their position (that does not mean I agree with it), you cannot bring yourself to accept that millions of other people have different views from you and their views need to be respected.
That is why your whole strategy is funneled to hoping Zionism ceases to exist because you cannot bring yourself to the realistic conclusion that Zionism has to be compromised with. You are just as bad as the people that say Palestinians do not exist or hope they disappear. And therefore you are an extremist as most people on this blog are. You are not helping find a solution, you are an impediment to it.
Snap outta your hallucinations eee.
The world is NOT governed tribally – there are political systems in place that govern us now – and it’s been this way for a few hundred years.
And so what that you claim to be second generation israeli – your forefathers are regarded as foreign settlers and you should certainly not be rewarded for their ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
It ain’t just me who’s against zionism eee, it’s MOST OF THE WORLD, and for good reason – they’ve seen your crimes with their own eyes on youtube.
WAKE UP and smell the corpse for Pete’s sakes!
“I am in a position to point my finger at them as I don’t hold their strange positions.”
No sir, nothing strange at all about an “atheist Jew”! You know, now that I think about it, I bet there’s a whole shitload of you in Israel.
But then, there are crass, amoral opportunists everywhere.
eee: You are not Jews, just humans, don’t you know that?
Just humans? Nice. Do you take cream with your supremacist worldview? Or do you prefer it black? -N49.
N49,
Is saying that one is a Jew or being proud of the fact being a supremacist? How extreme can you guys be?
>> eee September 19, 2011 at 12:49 pm
What a rather pathetic human being, who can only feel comfortable living in a supremacist “Jewish state” with people of like-minded bigotry and hatefulness.
I know, I and the other 5,5 million Jews in Israel are “pathetic human beings”. The millions of Jews in the US that are comfortable living in Jewish communities are “pathetic human beings”. Just say it out loud. You believe a large percentage of Jews are “pathetic human beings”.
>> I know, I and the other 5,5 million Jews in Israel are “pathetic human beings”.
Not at all. It’s just you, and other people who are as hateful and immoral and xenophobic as you are.
>> Just say it out loud. You believe a large percentage of Jews are “pathetic human beings”.
1. I have no reason to say something I don’t believe.
2. I find it interesting that you consider most of the worlds Jews to be as hateful and immoral and xenophobic as you are. Why would you want to drag so many good people into your pathetic little world?
As I am not saying anything different than what most Jews say, that they want to, like to, are comfortable living in a Jewish community. And therefore, as much as you want to deny it, you are calling most Jews “pathetic human beings”. You really need to examine your world view.
>> … you are calling most Jews “pathetic human beings”.
Once again, I’m not saying that at all. You are. The only people that I am actually calling pathetic are you and people who are as hateful, immoral and xenophobic as you are.
And, again, I find it very interesting that, unlike me, you actually consider most of the world’s Jews to be as hateful, immoral and xenophobic as you are. It’s almost as though there aren’t enough people like you around and, so, you want to surround yourself with more of them in order to justify your hatefulness, your immorality and your xenophobia.
Very sad. :-(
And of course “eee” knows all this because he has lived several lifetimes in all of those states. He’s not just regurgitating what he’s been told. Oh no, not “eee” the “atheist Jew”
Oh, c’mon, you gotta admit, “cultural jew” is a pretty hazy description (a self serving as all heck, if you ask me) but “atheist Jew”? Now that’s the way to go!
Eljay,
Yes, you are calling most Jews “pathetic human beings” since you take mainstream values and beliefs of most Jews and say that they are “hateful, immoral and xenophobic “. It is quite simple. My views are mainstream among Jews in Israel and the US. Yet you call me “hateful, immoral and xenophobic “. That is just a round about way of calling most Jews that. Except that you are not willing to admit it.
Show me ONE view of mine that is not common among Jews in Israel or the US and is “hateful, immoral and xenophobic “.
>> eee September 20, 2011 at 12:43 pm
Dude, you’re killin’ me here! I’ve already stated twice that I don’t accept your assertion that “most of the world’s Jews” are as hateful, immoral and xenophobic as I find you to be…and yet, for some inexplicable reason, you keep trying to convince me that they are!
You have a strange way of standing up for your “collective”…
You don’t have to accept anything. The reality is that most of the world’s Jews support Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. You disagree with them and think they’re Nazis. We get it.
>> You don’t have to accept anything. The reality is that most of the world’s Jews support Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. You disagree with them and think they’re Nazis. We get it.
You appear to be suffering from “common sense”, so let me repeat myself yet again, just to be as clear as I possibly can: I do not believe that “most of the world’s Jews” are hateful, immoral and xenophobic people like I find eee to be.
eee, on the other hand, seems to think they are. Apparently, so do you. I find this very puzzling.
“You appear to be suffering from “common sense”, so let me repeat myself yet again, just to be as clear as I possibly can: I do not believe that “most of the world’s Jews” are hateful, immoral and xenophobic people like I find eee to be.
eee, on the other hand, seems to think they are. Apparently, so do you. I find this very puzzling.”
You appear to suffering from bad faith. Most Jews, including eee and I, are not hateful, immoral, or xenophobic. You simply disagree with the premise that Jews have a right to self-determination, which you deem to be hateful. We get it.
I find this very puzzling.
What is more, they seem to believe that even those who live outside of Israel negate the diaspora. And they call us “self-haters” …
Oh please. A wikipedia article which is marked “neutrality disputed” and is sourced from a single source? You’ll have to do better than that.
hophmi,
The Wiki article was merely intended to provide a brief explanation of the term to those who are not familiar with it. The concept of “negation of the diaspora” is central to Zionism, and with a little googling (or research method of your choice) you can find out as much or as little as you like about it, from any perspective you choose.
It is part of the Zionist ideology I was raised with, although as an adult, I have come to the conclusion that the future of Judaism necessarily lies outside of Israel – unless Israel can be de-(political)-Zionised.
You simply disagree with the premise that Jews have a right to self-determination, which you deem to be hateful.
Actually, YOU simply disagree with the accepted meaning of “self-determination” and consider the ethnic cleansing and oppression of other ethnic /religious groups as part and parcel of “self-determination”, when such actions are totally counter to the term. And ethnic cleansing and oppression of other ethnic/religious groups is hateful. That’s where your blind spot is.
>> Most Jews … are not hateful, immoral, or xenophobic.
I’m glad you agree with me. I hope eee is able to come to the same conclusion.
“I hope eee is able to come to the same conclusion.”
He might, but I’m sure he will consider it his halachic obligation to move them as far as he can in that direction.
If you only want to live among Jews, it’s probably a bad idea to plant your Jewish state somewhere with such a big non-Jewish preexisting population.
Now that is, Diane, what I call an incisive comment!
xD
Very good observation.
Especially when there already was a Jewish state in Eastern Russia starting in 1929: the Jewish Autonomous Oblast of the Soviet Union. Hebrew and Yiddish are the official languages.
link to eao.ru
Photogallery
link to eao.ru
Considering that the width of Russia goes from Seattle to Tehran, there was lots of room there. The Oblast was safe from WWII.
2010 article about it here:
link to csmonitor.com
Ok Diane,
Where would you have put the Jewish state? Only realistic options please.
And if you your point is that there should be no Jewish state except on Mars, then why not just say that a Jewish state should not have been created?
“If you only want to live among Jews, it’s probably a bad idea to plant your Jewish state somewhere with such a big non-Jewish preexisting population.”
Very true. You got an alternative given the historical circumstances at that time? And will you be calling for returning America to the Native Americans? Why, in your anti-nationalism crusade, would you start with the Jews?
Pure. Simple. Racism.
It’s all very interesting. Eric Yoffie says he wants one place on earth to have a Jewish majority (not Jewish exclusivity). The vast majority of the countries on Earth, including the several dozen Islamic countries, maintain an ethnic or religious majority of some sort. No one would dare ask them to give it up. Only Israel. It’s a double standard.
So what do you propose? Killing Muslims and Christians outside of Israel and Palestine, in addition to killing them inside Israel and Palestine?
What exactly are you proposing, hophmi?
Easiest thing in the word to do as you have shown quite convincingly in Gaza. Just continue to draw to circle in a smaller and smaller area so as to only encompass Jews and others until Jews are the majority (so much simpler than actually *being* a majority). You woudn’t get near as many complaints by maintaining your majority by reducing your boundries, rather than the current practice of expanding your boundries and “relocating” the uncooperative demographically unacceptable “ratio-killers”. As a survival strategy (avoiding all eggs in one basket), maybe the tribe needs to assert that it is always justified to ensure that any collective of its people must be provided with sufficient favored status to enable a majority self-determination that trumps a current “minority” status group before the predetermined outcome gerrymandering.
Any request for supporting arguments to justify alterations of previously predominant diversities will always be the same…
“You know…[points to the word written on the noteboard and shrugs]…Holocaust.”
It’s not about “giving up” a majority of some kind. (Through more ethnic manipulation, or what?) It’s about simply not putting in place barriers to integration and change that violate individual and national (if you believe in such a thing, as Israelis do) rights. No state should be doing that.
“I assume that they want a Palestinian state to be organized around their group.”
He assumes they are as bigoted as he is? Could he, perhaps, try asking them to find out?
RE: ‘I prefer to live with Jews’ ~ Yoffe
MY COMMENT: I think it all goes back to goddamn tower!
Babel (Trailer 2006) – link to youtube.com
“I want the Jewish state to be organized around my group, I assume that they want a Palestinian state to be organized around their group. [...] In the Middle East, there is little to suggest that other arrangements can work.”
No. There is nothing to suggest that this arrangement can work. Is there a more fundamentally dysfunctional political situation in the Middle East? In the world? We are talking about more than 100 years of continuous conflict since the advent of ethno-nationalist political organizing.
Instead of putting all this energy into brutally separating people from each other and from land they hold dear, why not work on finding ways to live together based on rights and mutual respect? Fairness is a much more stable basis for political order than sameness.
Really interesting “conversation” as far as left-right dynamics in Israel, though. (For a leftie’s story, the right comes off as relatively attractive.)
Also, American is right to point out that people can and do find ways to live among their own kind in multicultural (and largely nondiscriminatory) societies. There are endless examples, including some extremely close-knit Jewish communities.
Much as Yoffe is repugnant here, the right-wing fellow is following an established tradition of Jabotinsky-ite discourse. Ze’ev wrote in “The Iron Wall” that no Arabs need to be expelled, yet Etzel followed the Haganah’s lead in Jaffa and elsewhere. Of course DBG said the same thing at points, the difference being that he would not demand lands not readily available and preferred to build up in land already under Zionist possession. Yoffe’s friend above is simply using bi-nationalism as an excuse to possess all the land; when it comes down to the “Arab question” he’ll be on the side of expulsion, that’s a promise.
“Instead of putting all this energy into brutally separating people from each other and from land they hold dear, why not work on finding ways to live together based on rights and mutual respect? Fairness is a much more stable basis for political order than sameness.”
Oh, shush. You’re being reasonable.
The good people of Abirim also “prefer to live with Jews” (and not because “Perhaps someday [they] will decide to live there”):
link to haaretz.com
And another plan for people who “prefer to live with Jews”:
link to haaretz.com
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
Do these people look “unsucessful”? Do they look like they aren’t there?
Oh BTW, I can mention one thing Israel hasn’t done! Know what it is? Just this: It hasn’t managed to be good enough for Hophmi to live there!
But of course, you having lived several lifetimes in all the places you mentioned, you know whereof you speak.
See, I’m not like you, “eee”. Anyplace I hang my head is home.
Interesting coming from a person that never lived in Israel and doesn’t want to. How did you form your opinion from afar?
I have lived in several countries and was not comfortable as in Israel.
eee: “I have lived in several countries and was not comfortable as in Israel.”
Now that I can believe. But eee, if you can’t pull that two-state solution out of the fire you’re not going to like what comes next. Though your children may grow to love it.
Libra,
You are well intentions but so naive. Let’s talk once there is ONE successful Arab country. So far all the Palestinians have to offer is Hamas or Fatah. Even your progressive children will not be happy in either kind of state.
Well of course! It’s good to be the king, huh?
And here comes the race hatred and bigotry we’ve come to expect from Israelis.
And who is responsible for what Palestinians have to offer?
Without Zionist Israel there would not have been any Hamas or Fatah or PLO. It is beyond your puny imagination what Palestine would have been without Zionists coming to rob them of their heritage and their dignity, creating millions of refugees, and oppressing them with daily injustices.
That is what you did and do in your one shot in modern times at being a successful country. It has been nothing but an utter disgracing of the name Jew and the name Israel, let alone the name of the god you deny or misuse.
Or, Chaos, as Hostage wrote here: link to mondoweiss.net
“Let’s talk once there is ONE successful Arab country.”
Whether “Arab” states are “successful” or not has very little bearing on what happens to Israel. A “successful” Arab state is not a prerequisite to Israel failing.
“A “successful” Arab state is not a prerequisite to Israel failing.”
For once I agree with you. However, a successful Arab state would make the idea of the one state solution a little less crazy. That is my point.
Can you measure the success of an Arab country by this kinda scene:
link to youtube.com
Or how ’bout MEMRI’s take on clubbing in Beirut:
link to youtube.com
How ’bout this funky number too:
link to youtube.com
And the piece-de-resistance:
link to youtube.com
Eat your hearts out zionist fools!
John h,
The Palestinians are responsible for what they have to offer and what they are.
That is just common sense. Nobody forces them to support Hamas and Fatah.
The Muslim Brotherhood by the way is a feature of most Arab countries, so why do you think it would not have been a feature of Palestinian society without Zionism?
Taxi,
Are you joking? Lebanon, a country that underwent a brutal civil war in which 150,000+ Lebanese were killed is a successful country? A country that was controlled by Syria till 2005 directly and now indirectly by Syria and Saudi is successful? A country that is clearly sectarian with political posts allocated by law to specific religions is successful? And I can continue.
It was zionism that radicalized the middle east eee – not islam, not christianity and most certainly not local judaism.
Yes please continue with your MEMRI list eee, do tell us some more about Beirut, I mean we all know you’re an ‘expert’ on the place cuz you’ve been there and personally destroyed a few Lebanese lives already.
And yet with ALL it’s faults eee, Beirut is still regarded by the world as the ‘jewel’ of the middle east, easily winning over the decrepit and racist tel aviv, an ugly germanic city built by force on the mediterranean, with bad air and angry zionist people drowning their racist fears in after-hours drugs and alcohol, instead of like the Lebanese: CELEBRATING today like its their last day on the planet.
Given the choice, I know who I’d rather have a beer with: a spirited Lebanese and not a manic-depressive arrogant zionist.
And one last point eee: prepare to pay reparations for the 23,000+ Lebanese lives lost during the zionist summer invasion of 1982 – and that’s just for starters. You ain’t getting away with NONE of your well-documented crimes just because a decade or two in time may lapse.
“It was zionism that radicalized the middle east eee – not islam, not christianity and most certainly not local judaism.”
Are you joking? Zionism has nothing to do with Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism. It has nothing to do with the Sunni-Shia divide. It had nothing to do with the awful rule of the Ottoman empire. It had nothing to do with the Sykes-Picot agreement and the selling out of the Arabs and their national aspirations. It had nothing to do with the tons of lies the British and French sold the Arabs over decades. It had nothing to do with the French support of the Maronites and the catastrophe that became Lebanon. It had nothing to do with the fact that tyrants ruled Arab countries and could not meet the hopes and aspirations of their people.
eee, who do you suggest they support if not, Hamas or Fatah?
I’m gonna bet that you think they should be transferred
to Jordan.
“It was zionism that radicalized the middle east eee – not islam, not christianity and most certainly not local judaism.”
Oh please. This is an excuse. There are lots of reasons, and Zionism is a very small part. In fact, I’d say the Arab attitude toward Israel is a symptom of radicalization, not a cause.
Which part of “radicalized” do you not understand eee?
rad·i·cal·ize: To make radical OR MORE radical. (www.thefreedictionary.com)
Okay mister zionist, let’s put this question in another way shall we:
What the heck’s israel ever done for the region except murder, steal and hate?! Did peace break out or broken out since it’s darned inception? A big fat zionist NO is yer answer! You guys came from europe with your blood boiling and you still don’t know how to chill with the neighbors.
Yes there definitely were ALWAYS some fundamentalists living in the region, same as ANYWHERE else in the world, but my dear eee they certainly weren’t armed and stirring up shit like they are now, their numbers have increased and more and more ordinary people are becoming more RADICALIZED because of continued israeli crimes and because of no accountability has been slapped on the criminal.
So STFU eee, go tell the tooth fairy how nicee-nice Apartheid israel really is.
If it were down to me, I’d have zionists locked up instantly for their racist hate crimes against… good grief the list is too long to mention!
As per usual, eee, you exonerate your own from any responsibility for what they have done that affects the other. But then, common sense is generally absent from much of what you write.
Get more informed on the Muslim Brotherhood and stop using it as a bogeyman; surprise yourself and us:
“Since its inception in 1928 the movement has officially opposed violent means to achieve its goals.[5][6] The MB’s non-violent stance has resulted in breakaway groups from the movement, and been criticized by al-Qaeda for its support for democratic elections rather than armed jihad.[7]
in 1992 following a military coup d’état… The Muslim Brotherhood in Algeria subsequently also refused to join the violent post-coup uprising by FIS sympathizers and the Armed Islamic Groups (GIA) against the Algerian state and military which followed, and urged a peaceful resolution to the conflict and a return to democracy. It has thus remained a legal political organization and enjoyed parliamentary and government representation.” (Wikipedia)
“What the heck’s israel ever done for the region except murder, steal and hate?! ”
It’s the most economically successful state in the region. It’s the freest state in the region in terms of civil liberties, voting rights and social policy. And you talk about hate. There is so much more hate for the Jews by the Arabs than is for the Arabs by the Jews.
You guys came from europe with your blood boiling and you still don’t know how to chill with the neighbors.”
Please. Half of Israel is from the Middle East. And it is not a crime for a person from Europe to move to the Middle East.
“their numbers have increased and more and more ordinary people are becoming more RADICALIZED because of continued israeli crimes and because of no accountability has been slapped on the criminal.”
Excuses, excuses. These people are radicalized because they come from a poor part of the world that offers them little opportunity. They see other parts of the world doing better than them, parts that exploited them in previous generations, and they want revenge. The idea that this is about Israel is like saying World War I was about the killing of Franz Ferdinand. Israel is for them a symptom of the West, not the cause of their problems. And frankly, their form of Islam, while celebrating Jews in part, clearly delineates them as not equal, which only adds to their humiliation.
“If it were down to me, I’d have zionists locked up instantly for their racist hate crimes against… good grief the list is too long to mention!”
Yeah, I’m sure you would. And you know what? Things would be NO BETTER for you or for the Arabs of the Middle East.
Are you tone-deaf Hophmni?!
I most certainly didn’t ask what has israel done for ITSELF! But what has it EVER done for the REGION!!!!!!!!!
Murder, steal and hate IS your answer.
Or you wanna tell me the eating of cherry tomatoes inspires peace in people?!
And you’re mistaken – the world WOULD INDEED be a better place without racist Apartheid-loving zionism!
“But what has it EVER done for the REGION!!!!!!!!!”
For the region? Pray tell, what has Saudi Arabia done “for the region?” What has Iran done “for the region?” What has Lebanon done “for the region?” What did Saddam Hussein’s Iraq do “for the region?” What has Syria done “for the region?” What has Egypt done “for the region?”
One day, all of these countries, if they choose to establish ties with Israel, will benefit from the robust Israeli economy, which will serve as a market for their products, Israeli technical knowhow, which will help their development, and Israeli democracy, which will help them form their own democracies.
What will Israel get from these countries? Not much.
Well, Saddam invaded Kuwait, that’s right, and had a war with Iran in which hundreds of thousands were killed. Saudi Arabia exports terrorism. Yemen exports terrorism. Iran exports terrorism. Syria dominates Lebanon. Egypt has mostly exported repression and terrorism.
Yeah, these countries do a lot for the region.
Good grief hophmni! Just answer the frigging question!
Otherwise I’ll take from your constant digressions that you AGREE with me! Apartheid israel has contributed sweet eff ay to the region but for mass murder, mass theft and unending hate.
And by the way, the countries you mention as being ‘worse’ than Apartheid israel, they’ve been around for thousands of years longer than israel – read up on their history: you’ll find plenty of good deeds for the region these countries at various times have contributed.
Apartheid israel is the worst neighbor any country can have. Why if I lived next door to them, I’d fight their disgusting racism till the end of time!
“That is my point.”
I don’t know why you feel the need to keep on reiterating your anti-”Arab” racism. We get it, we get it, they’re not as good as Israelis, in any way shape or form. Don’t worry, we take that as a given, every time you post.
“It had nothing to do with the tons of lies the British and French sold the Arabs over decades.”
Is he talking about the Balfour “declaration” again?
“Yeah, these countries do a lot for the region.”
Hey, I know, why don’t we just say this:
1) Israel Rocks!
2) Arabs Suck!
3) You Suck!
4) The Whole World Sucks!
One thing you gotta admit, they’ve got consistency!
“Apartheid israel has contributed sweet eff ay to the region but for mass murder, mass theft and unending hate.”
That’s a question? Why would I answer a statement?
“Otherwise I’ll take from your constant digressions that you AGREE with me! ”
You go right ahead and think whatever you want to think (or more accurately, what you thought before). Whatever you need to tell yourself to keep from going out and rummaging through the neighbor’s garbage can.
“And by the way, the countries you mention as being ‘worse’ than Apartheid israel, they’ve been around for thousands of years longer than israel ”
I believe my question was what these countries have contributed to the region, since we are talking about what Israel has contributed to the region. Apparently, now, in addition to taking care of Israel, Israel now has an obligation to provides something to “the region”, a region which has outwardly rejected its existence. Since you’ve provided no examples of anything other countries have done “for the region” (apparently, your answer is “they have been there longer”) (?) I’ll take it that you agree that asking what Israel has provided “for the region” is another one of those double standards.
“Apartheid israel is the worst neighbor any country can have. ”
Oh no! A new entry for my pro-Palestinian hyperbole book. Ask the Kuwaitis circa 1990 whether they prefer having Israel as a neighbor or Iraq. Ask the Iraqis whether they prefer Israel or Iran. Ask the Kurds whether they prefer Turkey/Iraq or Israel. I could go on.
“Why if I lived next door to them, I’d fight their disgusting racism till the end of time!”
Feel free to set yourself on fire in protest in any free place in the Arab world you can find. Maybe Saudi Arabia.
Who knows? Hophmi is a right wing crank.
“and Israeli democracy, which will help them form their own democracies. ”
LOL. Israel has turned half the population of the land under its control into vote-less serfs based on their ethnicity. That’s not a “democracy,” hoppy, that’s Apartheid.
If you were my neighbor hophmni I’ll kick yer ass if you so even THINK about touching my house. And hands down there’s NO DIFFERENCE for me between living in Saudi Arabia and living in Apartheid israel: two sides of the same evil coin.
You’re not impressed with your neighbors cuz you know shit ’bout their history. And you ain’t NEVER gonna know ’bout them cuz you’re too racist and too mentally lazy to look into it.