Alan Dershowitz near the U.N.
Andrew Courtney is an artist, teacher and activist for social change. Learn more about his work at Red Hill Films.
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Very nice work. I assume Dersh was there to lead the applause for Netanyahu from the visitors’ gallery. (Or maybe he was just on the lookout for “antisemitism.”)
Bibi again offered Dersh a slot as Israeli’s ambassador to USA? Compare his pic to the guy sitting on the US public bench.
It is nice to see the signs of aging on the face of the Dersh.His whole worldview will die with his generation.
The other pictures are wonderful.
It kind of reminds me of Sesame Street for some reason. I suppose it has to do with the happiness and the multiculturalism… and the fact that there was even a photo of Oscar the Grouch mixed in there.
Speaking of Sesame Street characters…was Witty spotted in the crowds? He’s notably absent from the threads these past few days! Saving his assessment until he’s internalized and navel-gazed it enough?
Dersh looks almost human in that picture.
True, but it does not disguise the underlying ugliness.
It’s the garbage in the background that creates the human effect.
haha
MachahirNews Machahir123
BREAKING: Reports:194 countries with #Palestine and 5 countries againts Palestine at the #UN = Israel,USA, Micronesia, Botswana and Canada.
It’s Sat, 2 pm; this tweet was 5 minutes ago. 194 to 5. I read Bibi was running around the back corridors at the UN trying to bribe a bunch of little desperate 3rd World countries, but all he got is Micronesia & Botswana. Wasn’t Micronesia one of the little desperate swing states the US bribed to get UN recognition for Israel statehood? I think that bid past by 5 swing votes.
citizen, if it goes to committee doesn’t that take weeks or months? it won’t go to the general assembly for awhile, or am i confused? also, can the GA bypasss the security council with with those kinds of votes? for full membership? where’s hostage when we need him. thanks for the update. what’s Machahir news?
Annie, I found this
link to debatepedia.idebate.org
Palestine is trying to become the 194th member state, so 194 + 5 is something of a non-sequitur. They have been counting noses for months, and say they are expecting 150 states. The majority of the others will abstain if history is any indication. That’s well in excess of the 50 percent normally required for observer state status. I would expect the US, EU, and Israel will insist that it is an “important question” that requires a 2/3rds vote, since it implicitly entails granting accession to the ICC and any UN multilateral treaty.
The President of the ICC Assembly of State Parties confirmed to the WSJ that Palestine can become a State Party to the ICC and ask for prosecutions once they have secured that status upgrade from the General Assembly.
The UN membership application has been put on the Security Council agenda for Monday. Ma’an has been reporting that there are 9 SC member states in favor. The US would need those same states to agree to any delay or referrals. I don’t think the US should try to openly game the system and refer a matter to a subcommittee after Obama publicly announced his intention to exercise a veto anyway. Abbas has indicated he would allow the Security Council some time to deliberate the application, but that was before Obama’s snotty speech the other day. He might decide to force a veto, if he has 9 votes against referral to a committee, just so he can press-on with alternatives in the General Assembly. I suspect that he will let things play-out in the SC.
I’ve mentioned before that a state can’t credibly pursue UN membership and non-membership as an observer state at one and the same time. The Palestinian officials have started to explain that to their own press, e.g.
link to maannews.net
Hostage,
Thanks for the post and specifically for the clarification between reports claiming the PA needs 1/2 or 2/3 vote in the GA.
According to this Reuters report Abbas will try to get a decision in the SC in 2 weeks. This carries the implication of the possibility that the PA could go to the GA if the SC vote is delayed further. Do you agree?
link to reuters.com
thank you
Abbas has now said he plans to go to the GA right after the SC vote, which he says should be in 2 weeks..
This carries the implication of the possibility that the PA could go to the GA if the SC vote is delayed further. Do you agree?
Surely. Abbas may want a showdown with the US in the Security Council for tactical reasons, but his strategic goal appears to be a more equal legal standing in international organizations and the international courts, not just a Pyrrhic victory. So, I believe that he will ultimately be going to the General Assembly and getting upgraded status, membership in the ICC, & etc. The UN organization is not ready to abandon the two state solution or to put Hamas in the driver’s seat. So, it’s very likely that they will end-up kicking the can down the road and giving the PA observer state status.
Article 18(2) of the UN Charter requires a 2/3rds majority of the members “present and voting” – even if that’s only 7 of 10 with 183 abstaining – to adopt decisions on any “important question”. There are several important questions that are specifically cited in the Charter, including the admission of a new UN member state. A decision on any other question can be adopted by a simple majority of the members present and voting in accordance with article 18(3).
The US is infamous for insisting that any resolution which it opposes that can be remotely connect in to “the conflict” be treated as an important question “with respect to the maintenance of international peace and security” in accordance with Article 18(2).
Annie, the current president being from Lebanon, has already circulated copies of the petition he had received via Ki Moon to other members of the SC and convened a Council meeting for Monday 3 pm to discuss it. This is probably when the review committee circus will begin before the US brings the curtain down on it. America is probably figuring that in a month or two, the Palestinian tsunami will have been forgotten and a veto will go through unnoticed by the masses. Some Democrat in NYC has called for massive rally by Jews in front of the UN on Monday to protest Palestine’s petition.
also, is australia abstaining? don’t they always vote w/the US?
Nope, on IP issues they usually abstain. Think about it, their nearest neighbor is Indonesia — it is not in their interest to piss off that nation.
I’ll be a bit surprised if Australia does abstain.
The Very Wonderful Julia Gillard’s boyfriend, First Bloke Tim Mathieson, is an Israeli agent.
Action Man Tony Abbot has been bought, and his number two, Julie Bishop (the one with the mad, staring, eyes) is a traitor who supported Israel over Australia on the the passport scandal. She just recently said Australia should vote “No”.
On the other hand, That Nice Mr Rudd allegedly thinks that an abstension would help his bid to get Australia onto the Security Council, and right now TVWJG needs his support.
what’s TVWJG ?
The Very Wonderful Julia Gillard.
TVWTG is Top Sheila
thanks. i had to google the aussie slang dictionary for that.
I have always thought and read that Australia usually votes with the US on Israeli issues. A switch here but in the past I think they are always on the Israeli boat
link to smh.com.au
sounds like Australia have mixed up their votes
“http://aijac.org.au/news/article/un-reformed
”
The record reveals that the Australian government, for the most part, continued to take a principled stand by voting “no” on many of these issues. Moreover, many of these votes occurred in December 2007, after Kevin Rudd and the ALP had already assumed government. These votes reflected no willingness by Australia to return to the tendency to vote reflexively the “European” way, as was explicit policy in the mid-1990s. At the same time, the decision of Australia’s UN delegation to either abstain or even vote “yes” on other resolutions, as well as the fact that Australia’s “no” votes have not proved a catalyst for enough other states to follow suit, demonstrates that there is still work to be done.
Australia’s voting record on the remaining four resolutions was mixed. On a resolution demanding that Israel accept the applicability of the relevant Geneva Convention to the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, Australia abstained. (The resolution passed 169-6-3.) Australia then voted against two resolutions, one criticising Israeli settlement construction in East Jerusalem and demanding that Israel comply with the International Court of Justice’s non-binding 2004 advisory opinion related to the security fence; and another demanding that Israel take certain specific steps in the peace process, such as releasing all tax revenue due to the Palestinian Authority, implement the Rafah Crossing agreement, and stop work on the security fence. (Both resolutions passed, 165-7-5 and 156-7-11, respectively). However, Australia then voted in favour of a resolution calling on Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions related to the Golan Heights. That resolution passed by a vote of 164-1-10, with even the United States abstaining.
Micronesia, aptly named state. Not sure if Israel is too happy a country with such a name supports them. But I guess they’ll take what they can get, lol.
Sadly, this lopsided 194-5 vote may only amount to a small paragraph in the back pages of the MSM. Its just too damaging for Israels minions in the press to allow much coverage. I’ve seen the way past lopsided UN votes have been handled in the U.S. press over the decades: a complete non-event.
Yeah, your right about that, Amar.
I lived and worked in Micronesia for several years and know it fairly well – I was directly exposed to the US foreign aid expenditures to Micronesia as part of certain governmental agencies working for Micronesia’s basic needs
Micronesia was part of old Trust Territories of the Pacific as ‘administered’ (given foreign aid, defended, etc) by the US until forming the ‘Federated States of Micronesia’ in relatively recent times.
Once they became the ‘FSM’ they got a very valuable UN vote that the US could direct any way they wanted. That must have caught the attention of the Israeli Lobby
Their whole government, health care system, telecom system etc is run ENTIRELY on US foreign aid. Nearly the entire GNP is US foreign aid.
The big mystery of the Pro-Apartheid Micronesian is this …
The US just tells Micronesia ‘vote the lockstep US-line on Israel’ or no more ‘Micronesian government buildings, salaries of the often corrupt elected public officials, hospitals, roads, plane flights, etc, etc ‘.
It’s put up or get shut out-time
A subsistence lifestyle is still practiced by many people (some of the islands are ‘high islands’ with plenty of farming and fish and are really self-sufficient paradises) , the thousands of islands are beautiful, and there are a number of different distinct languages and customs. But the average Micronesian knows nothing little of the US, let alone Israel ,and even less about Palestine or it’s struggles.
It’s a bought vote – bought by the US for Israel. This is Israel’s ‘big friend’ besides the US
Sickening….
Citizen
What vote?! No vote is due at the GA before weeks simply because the bid wasn’t submitted to the GA yet.. Also, no news outlet is reporting this.
Sorry, thankgodimatheist, I posted comment when way overtired; just wanted to give info on how vote lining up.
No vote is due at the GA before weeks simply because the bid wasn’t submitted to the GA yet.. Also, no news outlet is reporting this.
Ma’an has an article which explains that you cannot apply to be a UN member state and a non-member state at one and the same time. link to maannews.net
Many of the prospective protections of the UN Charter already apply. The UN Charter prohibits the threat or use of force against any state, not just UN member states. After Cast Lead, Israeli legal experts (e.g. Yaël Ronen) objected to the PA’s acceptance of the jurisdiction of the ICC. Ronen and the others opined that the Palestinians didn’t explicitly claim to be a state. After yesterday, those objections are moot.
Any future Israeli offensive against the West Bank or Gaza would very likely trigger the introduction of a resolution in the GA giving Palestine observer state status and a green light to pursue criminal charges against the responsible Israeli officials in the ICC. So, the Israelis will have to take the new risk factors into account whether the Palestinians approach the General Assembly right away, or not.
Abbas cited the 1988 UDI in the declaration attached to the membership application. Ambassador Christian Wenaweser, president of the ICC Assembly of State Parties, told Joe Lauria of the WSJ that a Palestinian observer state could join the ICC and ask the court to investigate any alleged war crimes and other charges against Israel committed on Palestinian territory after July 2002, including Israel’s 2008-09 assault on the Gaza Strip. You can read more about that subject here: link to mondoweiss.net
What happened to Palau?
Can someone explain to me why the quartet regards negotiations as an alternative to the UN statehood bid. Abbas said he was ready for negotiations, so did Netanyahu, so why are the bid and the talks mutually exclusive.
Also what has the quartet got to do with it anyway? What status does it have and who appointed (?) it. I thought the whole idea of going to the UN was to put the matter in their hands.
Israel and the US created a patent legal fiction after the Zionists extended the application of Israel’s municipal laws to the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. They claimed that Israel had not actually annexed the territory, since it’s status was disputed and could only be determined through negotiations. That really wasn’t true then, and it still isn’t true today.
The Quartet was created during the second intifada at a conference in Madrid. The Security Council adopted resolution 1515 (2003) which endorsed the Quartet Road Map. It’s based entirely upon requirements for a negotiated settlement. However, I don’t believe that Israel has ever honored a single one of its Road Map obligations. For their part, the members of the Quartet have done no better and have turned a blind eye to the 2003 General Assembly Emergency Special Session resolutions and the resulting 2004 ICJ advisory opinion regarding the illegality of the situation in Palestine concerning the establishment of settlements and the construction of the wall. Many experts have questioned the propriety and legality of continued UN participation in the Quartet under those circumstances. See for example the Conclusions of Special Rapporteur John Dugard in A/HRC/4/17, 29 January 2007. link to unispal.un.org
In another report Dugard wrote: Although the Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice is an authoritative statement of the applicable law and is designed to contribute to the framework for peace in the Middle East, it is not legally binding on States. In law, the United States is well within its right to refuse to accept the Opinion in the Quartet. The same applies to the Russian Federation and the European Union – although both have compromised themselves by giving approval to the Opinion by supporting General Assembly resolution ES-10/15 and subsequent resolutions. The position of the United Nations is, however, very different. The International Court of Justice is the judicial organ of the United Nations. Moreover the General Assembly has by an overwhelming majority repeatedly given its approval to the Opinion. This means that it is now part of the law of the United Nations. As such the representative of the United Nations in the Quartet – the Secretary-General or his representative – is in law obliged to be guided by the Opinion and to endeavour in good faith to do his or her best to ensure compliance with the Opinion. If the Secretary-General (or his representative) is politically unable to do so he has two choices: either to withdraw from the Quartet or to explain to his constituency – “we the peoples of the United Nations” in the language of the Charter – why he is unable to do so and how he justifies remaining in the Quartet in the light of its refusal to be guided by the law of the United Nations. The first course is possibly unwise at this time as this would deprive the United Nations of a role in the peace process. This makes the second course essential. — A/HRC/7/17, 21 January 2008 link to unispal.un.org
Thank you, and kalithea! It is only obliquely relevant to this issue, but Tony Blair is in my view one of the most despicable people to walk this earth and anything he is part of either already is or will inevitably become contaminated. No peaceful outcome can possibly emerge from anything he touches. The Palestinians would do better without the quartet.
I watched both UN speeches live on Al Jazeera and I was deeply impressed by Abbas and much moved by his reception. He is not young and he looked very tired, it seemed grotesquely unsympathetic of Netanyahu to throw out his rabble rousing challenge for a meeting here and now when all he had to do was announce a simple cessation of settlement expansion and he could have earned an ovation to rival that given Abbas.
I still find it difficult to imagine how Obama’s idealism which once ignited the world can have melted away into such onanistic self-interest, and I wonder what his daughters who are now at an idealistic age make of it all.
Hostage,
If the Palestinians have access to the ICJ, couldn’t they also request rulings on legality of settlements, legality of annexations (Jerusalem and Golan Heights) all of which are illegal under 4GC?
I think they might also use the ICJ forum to attack the length of the occupation which clearly has been used as a shield for illegal land acquisition. US occupation of Italy, German and Japan ended in 4, 6 and 8 years, respectively with no land grabs even though good arguments might have been made that some land be forfeited for reparations. 44 years seems to be a tad excessive.
Here’s another hare-brained idea: If Israel is found to have exceeded any reasonable length of occupation, wouldn’t Palestine revert back to UN trusteeship?
If the Palestinians have access to the ICJ, couldn’t they also request rulings on legality of settlements, legality of annexations (Jerusalem and Golan Heights) all of which are illegal under 4GC?
Yes and no. The ICJ is an integral part of the UN organization. Article 93(2) of the UN Charter allows the Security Council to play the gatekeeper:
link to un.org
On the other hand, the ICC is not part of the UN. It was created as an independent international body which was then brought into a “relationship with the United Nations system” in accordance with Article 2 of the Rome Statute. Its Statute is open to signature or accession under the “All States formula” contained in Article 125.
link to untreaty.un.org
In practice, that means the UN Secretary General serves as depositary and accepts instruments from any entity that has been unequivocally recognized as a state in a General Assembly resolution. See The “Vienna formula”; the “all States formula”; the practice of the General Assembly in “Summary Of Practice Of The Secretary-General As Depositary Of Multilateral Treaties”.
link to untreaty.un.org
The ICJ already determined that everything you mentioned, except the Golan, is a violation in its 2004 advisory opinion. Those findings were incorporated by references in the UN and Arab League fact finding reports on Gaza. The latter has already been referred to the ICC Prosecutor. Palestine would be able to opt-in to protections against the crime of aggression, including military occupation, when the definition enters into force in 2017. So, the occupation probably has a shelf life.
I’ll tell you why. Because, once the Palestinians have the bid, the parties will be forced to adhere to the law during negotiations. In other words, Palestinians have been doing their part, fulfilling the prerequisites, pre-conditions that call for non-violence and maintaining security, while Israelis are gorging themselves on Palestinian land, demolishing homes, uprooting trees and building feverishly while they claim to negotiate in good faith. So the bid gives Palestinians insurance, it gives them an ace to play during negotiations to stop Israelis from gobbling up the entire West Bank and forces them to adhere to the law.
It also ensures that Israelis don’t abuse the process by straying too far from previously signed treaties and Resolutions that should guide the terms of a settlement between the parties.
As far as the quartet is concerned, they’re redundant bureaucracy, and Tony Blair and Dennis Ross can kiss my ACE!
Why, oh! why did you have to spoil this beautiful series with a photo of a baseball cap wearing, unprincipled, unethical, monumental liar schmuck?
that was my feeling. But hey letting people know who was there. He looks so happy
Robert Fisk today. What a darkness despair is.
link to independent.co.uk
I like the photo of Dersh with the Bomabardier sign next to him. He is finally recognized as a member of the 101st Laptop Bombardier Brigade.
For crying out loud, can you please warn us next time before you sneak in a disgusting photo among such heart-warming scenes!!
I nearly hurled my lunch all over the keyboard at the sight of douchebag sandwhiched in between those lovely people.
Someone’s yanking our chain.
I know. I was scrolling down and then came crashing down. Sure if Dersh comes here and I bet he does that makes him happy
Sounds like a really strong majority! Wow. I must admit it to be quite impressive.
Syria adds real moral weight to the proceedings as does Sudan and Zimbawe with little Mugabe still at the helm. Like the MW commenters above, the world really “cares” about Palestinian rights. How about Kurdish rights in Kkurdistan? How about the rights of the majority Sunni in Syria with scores culled daily? now, if the resolution is about defaming Israel in the world’s august body, mission accomplished. Will it change the daily life of the Palestinians? You already know the answer for you are frauds at heart.
how about Kurdish rights in Kurdistan? are you advocating disbanding the PDK?
It really bugs you huh that when you tally the number of people around the globe supporting a Palestinian bid, it lies somewhere in the billions?
Yea, what a surprise and it really hurts. Or is it a freaking badge of honor?
The UN has as much legal and moral weight as The League of Nations. A better description might be the League of Scoundrels.
Sudan over a million killed… the UN does nothing.
Syria Over six thousand died in the past several months(the reports only examine the confirmed deaths), not the tens of thousand of vanishings.
Libya, hell don’t get me started, at least the current appears better than the last.
Saudi Arabia… how’s their treatment of the Shia going?
Bahrain… Yeman… Pakistan, that great, non-corrupt with a booming economy and culture ripe with dissent!
Mr. Chavez in all his glory… nuff said
The UN has as much legal and moral weight as The League of Nations.
Correction: The United Nations was responsible for:
*Establishing the UN War Crimes Commission 1943-48. It declared that those who had committed war crimes would be tried and punished. link to books.google.com
*Adopting a criminal statute and establishing an international criminal tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia.
*Adopting a criminal statute and establishing an international criminal tribunal for Rwanda.
*Jointly establishing the Special Court for Sierra Leone.
*Convening the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries on the Establishment of an International Criminal Court at Rome. It adopted a criminal statute and established a permanent international criminal tribunal. 118 countries are States Parties to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
*Adopting a criminal statute and establishing an international criminal tribunal for Lebanon.
So, unlike the League of Nations, the UN has very broad legal powers.
Baaaawaahwaaah….gripe, gripe, gripe. Hey, that sure was a sourpuss look on Susan Rice’s face! I love it when the truth is exposed; everyone turns to stone.
Biorabbi:
_____________________
“The UN has as much legal and moral weight as The League of Nations. A better description might be the League of Scoundrels. ”
_____________________
I’m confused. Isn’t that the same UN that created the Jewish State of Palestine in 1947, that is also referred to in Israel’s declaration of independence? If so, using your logic, the state of Israel has no legal or moral weight as it derives from a UN decision.
Iran… what a wonderful leader you have, showing us the true path on Israel, 911, and the Holocaust. It’s easy to be tolerant of gays when your country doesn’t have any as you purport.
The break-up republics of old Tito… nuff said.
How will they vote on Palestine?
Another thing if I may be so bold to query Phil and the gang about the Palestinians. We all know those dastardly tribal folks like moi, start all the wars, conned us into war in Iraq, when were not procuring organs, but when one looks at contributions to literature, nobel prize winners in philosophy, physics, medicine of every subtype, where are the corresponding arab “thought leaders” (I don’t count Qutb here)? Is their a racial or biological difference? Of course it is not. Might it be a cultural byproduct of a cultural swamp that uses the Jewish people and Israel as a useful deflection point for endlessly corrupt leaders? Is it Islamophobic to ask?
If it is, then it must be anti-semitic to correctly note that the “success of the Jews” always occurs in the context of rejection or freedom from, not of religion. This is why the IB Singer’s of the world reject religion in all its guises(especially his own). For the Phil Roths, the IB Singers of the world were liberated from the religious establishment. The great failure of progressives(liberals, communists, socialists with few exceptions) it they “know” this when it applies but wear blinders when Islamists protest freedom of speech due to a cartoon of their prophet. This is but one example and, indeed a metaphor for cultural amnesia and deflection for radical Islam. The victims here are not Jews or Christians but rather jobless arab youth, often well educated but without any prospects in their own society, forced to move to the west for work or education like some of the 911 hijackers.
For if it is correct to describe the mentality of Baruch Goldstein as warped by fundamental Judaism with a nationalist bent, why does the left cry Islamophobia loudest when many apt cases of normal individuals blowing themselves up to achieve paradise based on the inculcation of a warped fundamentalist version of Islam?
when Islamists protest freedom of speech
amusing framing
Religious cartoons mocking the prophet Mohamed is my reference. It is odious behavior, but should it be prosecuted? Is it cultural appeasement>
biorabbi said:
“cartoons mocking the prophet Mohamed is my reference. It is odious behavior, but should it be prosecuted? Is it cultural appeasement>”
cartoons mocking the Holocaust is my referece. It is odious behavior. but should it be prosecuted? Is it cultural appeasement>
So I take it you, biorabbi, will be the first to march into the parts of Europe where people are thrown in jail over holocaust history laws and demand the release of those currently imprisoned and compensation to those who have been imprisoned in the past so as to show that you are steadfast in your support of freedom of expression, is this correct?
Yes, this is the law in Germany and nearby counties. You frame it correctly, these laws should be abolished. First, such laws cannot be enforced, they are unjust and violate freedom of odious speech, and their existence are used to show the power of the lobby or whatever, thereby reinforcing vilification of a group. For one to claim the Holocaust never happened, to mock Mohamed with a suicide belt, are the same thing. Freedom of speech is an absolute unless you say post the address of an abortion provider on the internet or something like that. You are correct. Such holocaust laws are not the result of Jews or Jewish power, but rather based on the collective guilt of German/European society. A quick review of Youtube shows thousands of videos denying the murder of Jews in world war II, denying the armenian genocide, blame the Jews for 911(directly)and so on. Such videos should be legal. In germany there are additional restrictions of speech with certain symbols and even uniforms; that’s ridiculous.
Will you be writing letters of support for the 11 Muslim students who were convicted yesterday in Southern California for interrupting the speech of the Israeli US ambassador?
I think one of the most pernicious effects of the current wave of so-called antisemitism efforts here in the US is that it is an attack on our First Amendment rights justifed by claiming so-called antisemitic hate speech when in fact much of it is anti-Israeli policies speech. They (the lobby) now have gotten the EEOC to join in so that any remarks or publications that express distaste for Israeli policies are “delegitimizing” Israel which is therefore, ipso facto, antisemitism. That’s pretty scary to me, particulary since Jews have had a long history supporting First Amendment rights.
This Israel mess is really doing great harm to Jews in this country and is tarnishing what used to be a pretty noble brand. Hopefully more Jews will start standing up as have Tom Friedman, Peter Beinart and others. Jewish exceptionalism can be a force for great good or great harm. German exceptionalism of the 1930s certainly turned south. Jews need to start waking up to the fact the their Israel experiment is way south of south and that all the atrocities are being done in the name of Jews everywhere.
In germany there are additional restrictions of speech with certain symbols and even uniforms; that’s ridiculous.
The Supreme Court here in the US has ruled that burning a cross on your own private property is not protected speech under the First Amendment when it constitutes a “true threat” meant to frighten or intimidate an individual or group of individuals. Every year the US State department publishes a litany of reported abuses of humanitarian and human rights in the occupied Palestinian Territories by the State of Israel.
Michael Oren and the blue and white Star of David shouldn’t be allowed on our state facilities here in the US so long as there are Israeli state officials publicly claiming that troops who show mercy to the enemy will be ‘damned’ – or that the proper way to fight a moral war against the Palestinians is to destroy their holy sites and kill their men, women, children, and cattle. It’s just that f*cking simple.
The break-up republics of old Tito… nuff said.
How will they vote on Palestine?
Golda Meir’s was posted to serve as liaison to Uncle Joe Stalin’s USSR. The Evil Empire was subsequently the first state to extend de jure recognition to Israel. Nuff said. What does this pilpul bullshit have to do with the case for Palestine?
“We all know those dastardly tribal folks like moi, start all the wars, conned us into war in Iraq, when were not procuring organs, but when one looks at contributions to literature, nobel prize winners in philosophy, physics, medicine of every subtype, where are the corresponding arab “thought leaders””
Umm, a few problems with your line of argumentation:
1. American/Dual National Zionists were absolutely instrumental in the run up to the Iraq war, this has been documented over and over by eminent scholars like Petras, Sniegoski, Walt, Mearsheimer, etc.
2. The organ harvesting story which had Zionists screaming for bloody murder and acting in such a way as to economically strangle the newspapers who reported it mirrored the boycott efforts of the (admittedly idiotic) Muslims who did the same thing following the Danish cartoon row. Further than that, the organ harvesting stories turned out to be true.
3. You want to play the game of “count the jews” when it comes to Nobel prizes but you throw out absurdities like the two noted above in an effort to buttress your own case when in fact they comport to and provide evidence which supports the claims of your detractors.
You know that the dual national zionists are not necessarily zionists or certainly dual national types(I assume you are arguing with their spirit and not passports). An example would be Paul Wolofowitz. I do not believe he is necessarily zionist, or has a dual passport with Israel, but had a utopian idea of “bringing democracy to the arab world.” As far as his personal life is concerned, I believe he married a Muslim woman and rarely speaks out on much of anything, or if he is nobody’s listening. Perle is another one of David Duke’s favorites, also obsessed with the utopian neoconservative ideal of democratizing the arab world. The organ harvesting story? The Albanian thing I presume you are referring to with an Israeli or a Jew and several Muslims from Albania took place in organ harvesting, or is it Matza story? Anybody who uses such examples is not interested in the war of ideas, but on ideas, but he certainly has full rights in my book to spout off on this idea. As for 3, the counting of the Jews. LOL. the numbers are even “worse” when you get into the half-Jewish “element” for Nobel Prize Winners. On behalf Jewish mothers everywhere, we’re sorry for producing such men. But you are right, this is counting the Jews which is what “others” love to do…. in Hollywood, Business(why is Murdoch always mentioned btw?), and the law. Others love to distinguish Jews based on behavior…. good Jews of Walt/Mersheimer, and bad Jews or apartheid Jews of Walt/Mersheimer(or is that Mersheimer and Walt).
My own definition that I use I’m an American of Mosaic abstraction. I think it is accurate, embracing of others like Muslims, and is a historical metaphor for the events of March ’68 in Poland. Nothing new is under the sun.
Well Bio, I generally agree with most of the beginning of your argument, but why do you insist on tarring Mearsheimer and Walt with the same brush as David Duke. That’s not a fair or honorable argument. Who do you think you are, Jeffrey Goldberg?
I think there is a rational, non-antisemitic argument that can be made about the Perle/Feith/Wurmser/Wolfowitz group (which also included several well known non-Jewish neocons) that came up with the Iraq war idea in the early 90s and then ran with it when they came to power with the other neocons. I think these were people who care deeply about Israel, who are also loyal Americans, who felt it would be good for Israel to eliminate Saddam Hussein and also good for America. The problem is that their analysis was flawed in a variety of ways (some mentioned by you) and that their fear for and strong attachment to Israel may have influenced and flawed their judgment, thereby doing grave harm to both Israel and the US.
That kind of well-meaning dual loyalty can be a very bad thing. At one point it was a problem with Irish-Americans who were getting a bit too chummy and supportive of the IRA. Fortunately, there were some influential and courageousIrish-Americans who stepped forward and nipped that in the bud.
If I were a David Duke, I would love to join in and adapt this argument for my own nefarious purposes, but just because the David Dukes out there join in doesn’t mean the underlying rational argument is antisemitic, or that all people that make are antisemites.
I think a lot of the non-Jewish neocons were intellectual lighweights who came to power and brought along a lot of their evangalistic minions who were fairly easy to manipulate by a much brighter, much more determined and dedicated group. That group’s close attachment to Israel made them a poor choice as US policy makers. They grave harm they caused was not because they were unpatriotic Americans, but because their conflicted loyalties made them make well-meaning but bad decisions that were not in the best interests of their own country.
“Its very strange that one says Wolfowitz was not influenced by the Israeli agenda when he was caught passing documents to Israel in the 1980s”
James Petras
About Wolfie–
This is the standard line about Wolfowitz. That he’s really a universalist with his heart in the right place. But here’s a few more data points on the man who, more than anyone else, pushed the administration to launch the Iraq war and became the Jerusalem Post’s Man of the Year for 2003:
-He lived in Israel in his youth. He has relatives living there today.
-He was under investigation in 1978 for passing classified information to Israel.
-His career was always very closely intertwined with the most explicitly tribalist of the neocons. He started out as the protege of Richard Perle. He was Scooter Libby’s mentor. He was the one who brought Feith into the OSP.
None of these points “proves” anything. But they’re clues to how large Israel might loom in his mind. Dual loyalty (which remember is NOT a crime, but CAN be talked about) is a matter of degrees. They help us try to understand the mindset. Just as Doug Feith’s portrait of Theodor Herzl on his office wall helps us to understand him.
ICCDN11 and PTJ,
Do you have some links or cites to this stuff? I need them for something I’m writing.
thanks.
Details of his personal life are based on a story in NYT Magazine by Bill Keller, summarized here–
His run-in with US counter-intelligence has been widely reported in the alternative press, based on the work of Stephen Green; see–
The closest this story ever got to mainstream media is this–
On the incestuous interlinking of the neocon’s careers, see–
I think ICCDN11 is right, there was a second wrist-slap in the eighties associated with his role in the Israeli transfer of weapon technology to the Chinese, but I’ll have to look for the link.
Good stuff! Thanks.
you might also like kamal nasser.
“Do you have some links or cites to this stuff? I need them for something I’m writing.”
Oh yeah darlin! Ask and you shall receive:
link to bloomberg.com
“The 36-year-old’s undercover work in political and religious communities in New Jersey and New York makes Dwek the main link between the three mayors, two state assemblymen, five rabbis and one alleged human organ dealer taken into custody in the sweep…..”
link to nytimes.com
“the visit of Mr. Dwek to the Brooklyn home of Levy-Izhak Rosenbaum, who prosecutors say traffics in illegal organ sales. Mr. Dwek introduces an undercover F.B.I. agent as his longtime secretary whose uncle is in need of a kidney…”
link to bloomberg.com
“Levy-Izhak Rosenbaum, 58, of Brooklyn, was accused of conspiring with others to acquire and trade human organs for use in transplantation. Rosenbaum, who was “purportedly” involved in real estate, was approached by a cooperating witness and an undercover FBI agent about buying a human kidney from a human organ broker…”
oh heaven’s this is nothing irancontra. try googling ‘kidneygate’ or ‘netcare’ or ‘Ilan Perry’ or all of them together. it was a huge scandal in durban south africa and a trial and they sued the health insurance company. hundreds of israelis traveling down there for operations. completely out of the press here for obvious reasons.
Annie:
“You might also like Kamal Nasser.”
My god what a powerful poem. Hard to keep my eyes clear to continue reading. What a piercing piece of work.
Thank you.
here’s more about nasir, an extremely well loved individual. scroll.
sorry, i just realized i have been spelling his name incorrectly. terrible.
“It’s easy to be tolerant of gays when your country doesn’t have any as you purport.”
I don’t have access to the Farsi original, and it wouldn’t help me if i did, but the translation of his remarks is “We don’t have homosexuals like in your country.” (Emphasis mine.)
I interpreted that as “We don’t have homosexuals parading through the streets in weird costumes, or proclaiming their sexuality in public.”
In Iran, homosexuals face the death penalty. Some are, indeed, executed.
The alternative is to ask for a sex-change operation. This seems to be pretty easy to get, and is paid for by the state. After the operation, the person is legally a woman.
Since Ahmedinejad would certainly be aware of both these facts, it seems unlikely that he simply meant that there were no homosexuals.
You are effective at knocking down the straw men you erect. No one who attacks Islamophobia is attempting to protect “… cases of normal individuals blowing themselves up to achieve paradise…”. The problem is that the despiction of these abnormal deviants seems to extend to, or is offered as evidence of the perfidy of all 2 billion Muslims in this world. It is sort of the inverse of your claims against Jewish labeling, or Judophobia. Neither is acceptable.
“when one looks at contributions to literature, nobel prize winners in philosophy, physics, medicine of every subtype, where are the corresponding arab “thought leaders” (I don’t count Qutb here)”
Those Jews you’re alluding to who contributed as much made their contributions as citizens of countries (mainly western European/American) and not as separate entities as “Jews”. The credit should be given to the level of education and advancement they were likely to benefit from as westerners. To compare them to Arabs’ achievements in countries that cannot be compared in any shape or form to more technologically advanced countries. Your comparison, apart from being odious on many accounts is rather silly if not moronic..
Finally. If you only have heard of Qutb as a “distinguished” author( only to discount him with which I agree) than that’s probably your problem not the fact that there are no Arabic contributions! There are hundreds of superb Arab authors who unlike your Jewish folk, had the bad taste of writing in Arabic and not in German, English or French. As such they could not have the same chance of being translated, recognised and widely published. That you cannot see the difference is staggering and it really shows the depth of odious racism you wallow in .
My contention is that Arabic poetry (to name only one tiny branch of intellectual endeavour), whether “classical” or modern is amongst the most beautiful pieces of literature ever written in any language anywhere! That you never knew of its existence should be counted on your ignorance rather than it’s non-existence. Name me one Israeli poet that could reach to the knees of the likes of Darwish, Adonis or Assayyab (to name only a few). I read most of them. Apart from Aharon Shabtai, they are abysmally insignificant.
Maybe an overkill to expand on this but being the amateur of poetry (in four languages I can read) that I am, As-Sayyab’s ‘Rain Song’ is among the most beautiful poems ever written, old or new. If few know of it or of him, the reason is obvious. It was written in Arabic:
link to dhfaf.com
Rain Song (Unshoudatol Matar)
Excerpt:
I can almost hear Iraq husbanding the thunder,
Storing lightning in the mountains and plains,
So that if the seal were broken by men
The winds would leave in the valley not a trace of Thamud.
I can almost hear the palmtrees drinking the rain,
Hear the villages moaning and emigrants
With oar and sail fighting the Gulf
Winds of storm and thunder, singing
“Rain . . . rain . . .
Drip, drop, the rain . . .
And there is hunger in Iraq,
The harvest time scatters the grain in-it,
That crows and locusts may gobble their fill,
Granaries and stones grind on and on,
Mills turn in the fields, with them men turning . . .
Drip, drop, the rain . . .
Drip
Drop
When came the night for leaving, how many tears we shed,
.We made the rain a pretext, not wishing to be blamed
Drip, drop, the rain
Drip, drop, the rain
Since we had been children, the sky
Would be clouded in wintertime,
And down would pour the rain,
And every year when earth turned green the hunger struck us.
Not a year has passed without hunger in Iraq.
Rain . . .
Drip, drop, the rain . . .
Drip, drop . . .
In every drop of rain
this poem was my first introduction to arabic poetry. during the iraq war from an iraqi blogger. how could not start it from the beginning!
Yes Annie..my thinking was that starting with the beginning would give the impression of a love poem which is not. The excerpt I posted touches to the very relation of man to his land (Iraq). Poignant, painful even, which never fails to draw tears from my eyes. To read it in Arabic is a unique experience that cannot be expressed any other way. Only Neruda I found, IMHO, has such depth and magnitude.
As-Sayyab visiting Beirut in the 60s, read this poem to a gathering of poets (among whom were Adonis, Al Khal and Al-Maghout) members of the collective/Magazine Sh’ir (poetry). It was in a cafe. When he finished, there was a deafening silence for long minutes as if thunder has struck. Never ever before, in their collective admission had they heard anything like it. It was not only new to them, it was novelty itself. A new chapter in Arabic poetry has been written just there and then! I would have given everything to be just there!
I can, and probably would one day, forgive you anything you’ve done to us, biorabbi and other Zionist ilk, but will never forgive you the attempts at belittling us or our culture. Never..
thankgtodimatheist,
I went to bed last after a day of more or less petty MW exchanges, mine and others and awoke to continue the dialogue. But what do I find? Poetry, and a world I had no connection to, Arabic poetry. You have introduced me to a different spin to the dialogue, the spin of emotional, lyrical description instead of the constant harping of imperfect logic and stupid attempts at humor and sarcasm.
Thank you.
“My contention is that Arabic poetry (to name only one tiny branch of intellectual endeavour), whether “classical” or modern is amongst the most beautiful pieces of literature ever written in any language anywhere!”
I agree. I personally am a fan of Mahmoud Darwish, despite losing so much in translation, the poems are still beautiful. (I applaud Fady Joudah in particular for doing such a fantastic job translating Darwish) I look up to him as a person, too. A man of intelligence and integrity, may he rest in peace.
it is a whole amazing world irishmoses, like nothing else imaginable.
Ok annie (and thankgodimatheist), but where to start? I am an amateurish writer of fiction and know little to nothing of poetry , let alone Arab poetry so I am a real neophyte.
In terms of learning more about that “whole amazing world” of Arabic and Muslim culture, my wife and I have just decided to take 10 days over Thanksgiving to visit the Middle East. We looked at going the West Bank but it seemed way too complicated having to go in and out through Israel. We think we will go to Istanbul (not Arab obviously, but certainly a major Muslim country and major player in the IP issue). Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome.
i would start here.
read darwish and tawfiq. read pride and fury and sermon on the mount.
Ooh, nice bit of casual liberal racism, there biorabbit. So urbane.
Dershowitz and Bombardier (in the background) our planes may soar (and bomb and kill people) but our trains fly…
IranContra, as you might infer from my rantings, I care so deeply for the love of Weiss, Horowitz, and MJ Rosenthal. I yearn for their approval. I yearn for the loving approval of the good professors Walt and Mersheimer. I kvell for the loving, soft approval of Andrew Sullivan when he wades into the dirty waters of classical anti-semitic portraits of Obama’s Treasury guy Larry Summers. It deeply matters to me what the world thinks about me and I care very deeply what they think. BTW, what would any good talk about the Juden be without a tacit mention about the good ship SS Liberty? LOL.
Ah, but you left out that great Israeli patriot and hero Jonathan Pollard who has been treated so unfairly by what once was his own country. I might suggest otherwise and provide evidence to the contrary but I quake at the thought of being labeled an antisemitic Juden-Hater.
For someone who clearly has a sharp mind and whose heart is in or close to the right place on First Amendment issues, your resort to mass sarcastic labeling is or should be beneath you. While there is some over-the-top on both sides on MW, generally the quality of argument is pretty decent and thoughtful. Focusing on the easy extremes diminishes your effectiveness. I would like to see more analytic material from you, as in your first amendment response. But then, who am I but just another shanty Irish goy yelling out from back in the cheap seats.
Pollard did it for the money, contacting first other countries before putting his services of disloyalty up for bidding. He then proceeded to coke it up with his loot. He, it is my belief, is using his religion as cover for his greed. Just this week, it surfaced he went to New Zealand and tried to offer up his services…. I believe Pakistan and S. Africa as well. He was found guilty of treason and the book was rightfully thrown at him. While I am sensitive to the charge of dual loyalty and reject the generalization of this concept, if the bastard spies on America, put him away forever.
Good answer, same one Marty Peretz gave. God Bio, if you keep this up I may end up liking you.
Ireland is a wonderful country, great people, writers. I’m unfamiliar with the term Santy Irish Goy. Is it ok to stereotype the Irish, like the Italians, are wonderful artisans, crafting products by hand of true beauty. I agree with your points. I like to mock anti-semites with vane attempts at humor sometimes. As opposed to a heated argument, sometimes the Mel Brooks approach is called for, but I ain’t no Mel Brooks.
Hey Bio, you got some Mel Brooks promise, I can see it. I agree with humor as a way to make some points. Logic gets tiresome afterwhile.
I am US born Irish. Back in the day, when Irish were detested, particularly in New England, Shanty Irish was the big put down. Lots of other Irish-based expressions that were once put downs. e.g. Mulligan in golf is a reference to Irish dishonesty. We pretty much fought the civil war for the north, particularly later in the war when the word was out that it was a pretty bloody business. People could avoid service but paying some dumb Mick to take his place.
Some of my distant Maguire kin were hung for trying to organize the coal mines, the so-called Molly Maguires. It was tough to be Irish back in the day. Fortunately lots of Italians and European Jews came along and took the pressure off us.
Dershowitz on the cell phone advising Bibi … use hasbara manual – tactic #1, #2, #3 … and …eh…eh… those peace loving Israelis are the victims & those Palestinians are a threat to Israel’s security… good luck…Bibi!