Pamela Geller’s Islamophobia hits new low with Thanksgiving Day smear of dietary laws

on 81 Comments

Fosterer of hatred, Pamela Geller hits a new low in this Thanksgiving post about how your turkey is likely halal. This is the person whom Anders Breivik studied, and it’s no wonder. What is the Jewish commandment about the stranger in your land? What is the Arab tradition of incredible hospitality? Americans, channel those ideals today, not this narrow vicious xenophobia. Thanks to Jack Ross. I’m sorry to run so much of this column, but it must be seen to be believed:

Did you know that the turkey you’re going to enjoy on Thanksgiving Day this Thursday is probably halal? If it’s a Butterball turkey, then it certainly is — whether you like it or not.

In my book Stop the Islamization of America: A Practical Guide to the Resistance, I report at length on the meat industry’s halal scandal: its established practice of not separating halal meat from non-halal meat, and not labeling halal meat as such. And back in October 2010, I reported more little-noted but explosive new revelations: that much of the meat in Europe and the United States is being processed as halal without the knowledge of the non-Muslim consumers who buy it.

I discovered that only two plants in the U.S. that perform halal slaughter keep the halal meat separated from the non-halal meat, and they only do so because plant managers thought it was right to do so. At other meat-packing plants, animals are slaughtered following halal requirements, but then only a small bit of the meat is actually labeled halal.

Now here is yet more poisonous fruit of that scandal.

A citizen activist and reader of my website wrote to Butterball, one of the most popular producers of Thanksgiving turkeys in the United States, asking them if their turkeys were halal. Wendy Howze, a Butterball Consumer Response Representative, responded: “Our whole turkeys are certified halal.”

In a little-known strike against freedom, yet again, we are being forced into consuming meat slaughtered by means of a torturous method: Islamic slaughter.

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81 Responses

  1. tokyobk
    November 24, 2011, 7:56 am

    If she were an animal rights activist looking at kosher and halal practices, yeah, maybe. But she is no rights activist of any stripe.

    • Potsherd2
      November 24, 2011, 11:05 pm

      I suspect that first thing tomorrow the Butterball company will be talking to their lawyers.

  2. eljay
    November 24, 2011, 8:05 am

    1. No one is forcing anyone to consume meat.
    2. If someone were to suggest that kosher-certified tinfoil, laundry detergents and bottled water (among other items) constituted a “little-known strike against freedom”, would she agree, or would she simply cry “anti-Semitism!”

    • tokyobk
      November 24, 2011, 8:43 am


      She and Robert Spencer are two of the least self aware people on planet Earth.

      No agenda, no shtick of their own, just impartial observers of Islam and the West.

      But by the way their are Nazi sites where you can read the same: kosher tin foil is proof of the Zionist Occupied Government.

      • W.Jones
        November 24, 2011, 6:29 pm

        (“But by the way their are Nazi sites where you can read the same: kosher tin foil is proof of the Zionist Occupied Government”)
        Yeah, good point. When I heard those kinds of conspiracy stuff, I just disregarded it, because who cares about tinfoil.

        If the halal sluaghter is worse, like she says, then it seems like it should be labeled. And if kosher methods are more humane than regular methods, then maybe they should be labeled too, and people would prefer to buy the kosher ones?

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 25, 2011, 9:52 am

        “If the halal sluaghter is worse, like she says, then it seems like it should be labeled. And if kosher methods are more humane than regular methods, then maybe they should be labeled too, and people would prefer to buy the kosher ones?”

        From what I understand, halal slaughter and kosher slaughter is functionally identical, and differs only in the meaningless religious mumbo jumbo that accompanies it. (and neither of which are particularly humane, in my opinion, as the animal is not made insensate prior to getting killed.)

        But Geller’s an anti-Muslim bigot and this garbage should be seen as such.

  3. Shmuel
    November 24, 2011, 8:23 am

    The real question is how a patriotic American like Geller can still call it “turkey” (named after an anti-Semitic, terrorist Islamic state seeking world domination – before we knew any better)? Why not “freedom fowl” or “pilgrim pullet”?

    • Abu Malia
      November 24, 2011, 8:37 am

      “freedom fowl” or “pilgrim Pullet”
      Made me laugh so hard I woke up my 9 month old girl…….oh well….. Off to changing diapers!

    • David Samel
      November 24, 2011, 9:20 am

      Shmuel that’s a gem.

      • Shmuel
        November 24, 2011, 10:32 am

        Thanks. Sorry about the baby :-(

      • Mooser
        November 24, 2011, 1:17 pm

        “Why not “freedom fowl” or “pilgrim pullet”?”

        Why do you atheists get the best jokes? I davan, divinely, all day on my divan, (so I can be a “divan bard”?) but does the Almighty One, Praised be He, ever send me any new material? Not a single heavenly sockdolger makes its way to my cell. I’m still stuck here with “Cap’n Billy’s Whiz Bang”.

      • Shmuel
        November 24, 2011, 2:18 pm

        does the Almighty One, Praised be He, ever send me any new material?

        Try a funnier deity.

    • dumvitaestspesest
      November 24, 2011, 10:17 am

      Yeah, why are we being forced ( nobody forces me, though) into consuming a bird named after Turkey??
      You know Turkey , the country ,which supported recent Freedom Flotilla.
      The country, that kicked out the diplomats from “the only” democratic country in the Middle East, ( basically in the wholewideworld)??
      How can we enjoy a quiet celebration of this beautiful Thanksgiving day, and mention this poisonous name, “turkey”, over and over, and over??
      It is a little -known strike against freedom, justice and peace.
      It is a constant , steady slaughter of our minds/senses by using this very name turkey, while sitting at the dinner table.
      “Pass me some turkey” . ” The turkey is sooo good”. “I love this turkey”.
      ” This turkey is the best”. “Everybody in the family just adores turkey”.
      Can it get more torturous??

    • lysias
      November 24, 2011, 12:42 pm

      In Turkish, the bird is called “hindi,” i.e., the Indian bird.

      • W.Jones
        November 24, 2011, 6:25 pm

        In Russian, the word for Indians is “indyeitsi”.
        And the word for turkey (the bird) is “indyuk”.
        It sounds like it come from the same root word (“indy-“)

        But more importantly, why is she saying that halal slaughter is worse than regular ways of slaughtering turkeys?

      • dumvitaestspesest
        November 25, 2011, 9:14 am

        In Polish ,the word for turkey ( the bird) is “indyk”.
        Btw, I ‘ve read that America’s national emblem, instead of an eagle should be a turkey.
        Considered how fat it is, raised to be devoured on the farm , fed with an artificial food, rather naive, ( not that smart and not that proud) the bird is ,
        I agree.

      • jewishgoyim
        November 24, 2011, 10:45 pm

        In French too: “une dinde” which comes from “d’Inde” which means “from India”.

        Are turkeys coming from India?

        Minutes later:
        Well, I did my own research. Conquistadors brought the bird back from Mexico in the 16th century but since they did not have iphones, they thought Mexico was India. Hence the name.

    • libra
      November 24, 2011, 5:06 pm

      Shmuel: “Why not “freedom fowl” or “pilgrim pullet”?”

      Or “Geller’s Gobbler” to use it’s scientific name.

  4. Gaius Baltar
    November 24, 2011, 8:38 am

    She forgot to mention that Muslims drink the blood of Christian children at Ramadan.

    • annie
      November 24, 2011, 2:49 pm

      i’m not very thrilled with that opening paragraph seafoid. so many negative words .

      Unlike the no less challenging civilizations of East and South Asia, the world of Islam suffers from having been a charged opposite to the West. Ever since the seventh century CE, when Muslim armies first spread with baffling ease across the southern Mediterranean and the Middle East, Islamic civilization has been viewed, in Europe and in America, as shot through with an eerie sense of grandeur tinged with menace. The threat posed by Muslim powers on the frontiers of Europe was sharpened by the feeling that Islam itself was not entirely alien. It was seen as a mutation from the common stock of Judaism and Christianity that was all the more disturbing because the family resemblance between the three religions had not been entirely effaced. This attitude has persisted into modern times.

      ‘islam suffers’, ‘tinged with menace’ ‘ threat posed by Muslim powers’ ‘entirely alien’ ‘mutation from the common stock’ ‘all the more disturbing’

      and there’s more i didn’t mention. it is a subliminal framing nightmare.

      • seafoid
        November 24, 2011, 4:43 pm


        For most Westerners I think Islam is alien. There wouldn’t be scope for hatemongers like Geller if it was otherwise. For most Christians, Judaism is weird, probably. Most Israeli Jews hate Europe. It said so in Ha’aretz today. For most Sunnis Shi’ism is nuts. For most Hindus, Buddhists are freaks and so on.

        I remember as a child being enthralled by the Crusaders. The first time I went to the Levant I visited Kerak des Chevaliers, their castle in Syria. But I fell in love with Um Kulthoum. Now I would have more time for Salah ad din. When I went to the Middle East to live for the first time I was struck by how different the stories were. Haytham al Tha’ee is one I remember. The references are all different. The music is different. That is what makes it fascinating. A lot of Westerners can’t process that and they turn away. I was talking to an Indian today about this. He says the same about tourists to his country.

      • annie
        November 24, 2011, 5:20 pm

        seafoid, my image of the ME when i was a child was very exotic. arabian nights and all that. arabic was considered fashionable. towns all over the US had shriners mosques called ‘ancient arabic order of the nobles of the mystic shrine’. this had to have been in fashion i presume. but guys would dress up in these outfits. so there wasn’t this negative stereotype as i recall. i don’t recall any negative stereotype for muslims when i was growing up. it was all about russians under my bed.

        there’s still moorish architecture all over the US, here’s some in the bay area. note frank lloyd wright. that’s the civil center where i live.

        so to reference islamic art like it is somehow foreign to us is nuts. and none of these buildings seem menacing to me in the least. some are historic landmarks. they are so ingrained in the local scene around SF and many people do not even notice they are ‘islamic’. we’ve just been inundated with islamophobia (definitely orchastrated) to the point people think it’s always been like this, it hasn’t and it won’t last. it’s ugly and completely wrong for our culture.

      • seafoid
        November 24, 2011, 6:01 pm


        That exotic thing is what Said called orientalism, isn’t it ?
        Like Rafeef Ziada’s references to bellydancing . It is still other I think.

        I don’t remember political opposition to Islam but the culture was definitely seen as strange. They were all living in the desert. I think we got a load of English influence from the colonial era. Camels.

        I remember the reporting in 1982 from Lebanon. These savages. Especially after they took out that Marines barracks.

        We got all the American stuff about the Soviet Union. Sting had a song “the Russians love their children too” and I thought it was weird that he felt that had to be said.

      • W.Jones
        November 25, 2011, 12:04 am

        In the modern era I think most Americans didn’t really care about Islam or the Mideast until 2001. There might have been some positive images (lawrence of arabia) or negative ones (ideas about women’s oppression in the stricter societies), but most Americans didn’t think much about it, or associate the religion with terrorism until 2001.

  5. seafoid
    November 24, 2011, 9:01 am

    Kettle calls pot black

    Israeli PM claims ‘Islamic, anti-western, anti-liberal, anti-Israeli, undemocratic wave’, vindicates tough stance with Palestinians
    While back in Israel

    Netanyahu must choose the rule of law over Lieberman Lieberman’s position symbolizes gross contempt for the rule of law in Israel, but it seems there is nothing really new about that.

    • john h
      November 24, 2011, 3:42 pm

      In seafoid’s link to the guardian, Netanyahu for once actually says something true:

      “Reality is changing all the time, and if you don’t see it, your head is buried in the sand.”

      But he also said:

      “I ask today, who here didn’t understand reality? Who here didn’t understand history?”

      He is not changing at all, so the answer is blowin’ in the wind.

      Reality is to take the easy way of learning from the mistakes of history, or to take the hard way of being destined to be the one repeating them.

      He has chosen to bury his head in the sand and does not see what is up ahead. That history is Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and apartheid South Africa.

      When will they ever learn?

  6. Chaos4700
    November 24, 2011, 9:40 am

    If something’s halal, isn’t it effectively kosher as well? Or vice versa? I don’t know the finer points of both sets of dietary restriction, but from what I understand there’s some overlap, isn’t there?

    And even if there isn’t as much congruity as I think there is, what makes kosher rules any less alien? And why stop there, what about “papist” dietary requirements during Lent?

    Why is Israel a magnet for religious intolerance?

    • Potsherd2
      November 24, 2011, 10:08 am

      No. In almost every case, kosher requirements are stricter than halal. Muslims can eat kosher food, but frum Jews will not eat halal food. The methods of slaughter are similar, though the prayers at slaughter are different. Islam is a branch of Judaism in this and many other respects.

      • lysias
        November 24, 2011, 12:45 pm

        Islam is so much like Judaism that I’ve never understood why Jews regard Jews who convert to Islam as apostates. What’s so objectionable to them in the doctrines of Islam? Muslims can’t be accused of polytheism the way Christians are, because of the doctrine of the Trinity. How is it contrary to Judaism to believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God?

      • tokyobk
        November 24, 2011, 2:53 pm

        Judaism is aware of this. According to Maimonedes a Jew can pray in a Mosque for the reasons you mention,

        Still it is reasonable. For any faith to draw its doctrine and requirements no less Judaism or Islam.

      • GalenSword
        November 24, 2011, 3:29 pm

        There are communities in which the husband pretends to practice Islam but the wife remains Jews. I ran into this phenomenon in Egypt in the 1980s. Generally, Muslim jurisprudents were aware of the possibility of this subterfuge, and there are many fatawa to discourage such semi-conversions.

        For example, if a Jewish employee has a work contract that allows him not to work on the Jewish sabbath and if he converts to Islam, that clause must be voided (a substitution is allowed) in order to prove the veracity of the conversion.

    • Avi_G.
      November 24, 2011, 10:15 am


      One of the requirements for meat to be Halal is that it has to be slaughtered in a certain way so as to facilitate the drainage of all blood. The same applies for Kosher meat in Judaism.

      I suppose if there is logic to be found in religious practices, then in this case the logic is that it removes many of the blood-born pathogens.

      However, there is one main difference between Halal and Kosher in that Kosher food is supposed to have been prepared with strict adherence to the separation of meat from dairy.

      And Kosher food involves far more requirements than Halal food. That is why Kosher certification has become a job of well-trained professionals. My nephew is a Kashrut inspector. It’s a good gig.

      • American
        November 24, 2011, 11:35 am

        He might need to start looking for another job. I don’t know Avi, this kosher thing has always sounded more like a racket to me, how do you make mustard and paper towels kosher?

        New York State Agriculture Department Dismisses Its Kosher Law Enforcement Inspectors
        By Devra Ferst
        Published January 05, 2011, issue of January 14, 2011.
        New York state, which represents the largest kosher market outside of Israel, announced in a January 3 statement that its 85 food safety inspectors will assume the responsibilities of the Division of Kosher Law Enforcement.

        The statement came two days after the 11-employee kosher law enforcement division was whittled down to just its director, Rabbi Luzer Weiss. The Department of Agriculture and Markets, which oversees the division, says that the layoffs will save the state nearly $1 million this year.

        The division’s “main purpose was to make sure that any product or institution that represented itself as kosher was kosher,” said Menachem Lubinsky, who runs a kosher-focused consulting firm. “If it wasn’t, [the agency] had the ability to issue fines. Sometimes just by virtue of the publicity of such a fine, it caused establishments to correct the problem.”

        The state argues that the kosher inspectors and the division are irrelevant since a 2004 court case ruled unconstitutional a law that required the agency to perform religious kosher inspections. Since then the division has continued to ensure that kosher businesses register with the state and adhere to the kashrut standards that they report upholding
        Read more:

        I agree it’s unconstitutional for a taxpayer funded gov agency to provide any kind of regulation, much less enforcement, for any religious groups dietary practices. If FDA inspections and regulations aren’t good enough, (not that they are as far as I am concerned) then the religious folk need to start their own food industry to serve themselves, not impose it on the gov or the non Jewish or non Muslim industry or whatever.

      • Potsherd2
        November 24, 2011, 2:36 pm

        I dunno. It’s a question of fraud. If I claim that my chickens are organic but they don’t meet the standards for organic production, I’m defrauding my customers. Why not the same for halal and kosher chickens? Seems like a proper function of the government.

      • Charon
        November 24, 2011, 11:48 pm

        Geller is hypocritically singling out Islam when the same kind of fraud happens in Kosher slaughter and any kind of special food preparation.

      • American
        November 25, 2011, 10:18 am

        Well Pots you do have a good point there. I just react to anything involving religion being part of the gov duties.

      • gamal
        November 24, 2011, 12:00 pm

        yes as to the meat and dairy stuff its entirely the canaanites fault their descendants, in lebanon, still prepare Immos with lamb, the name implies cooked in its mother milk, yuk, i sympathize with the jews so freaked they wouldn’t let the merest bit of milk or its derivatives near their fleisch, as usual our barbarism is to blame. strangely turks call them ‘hindi’ which i guess means indian, and cook them in youghurt, with turks its always yogurt and imperialism.

        geller and pipes appeared as responsible commentators on muslim integration on a radio 4 program, uk, called beyond belief with ernie ray, i did it with a rabbi called conh-shertok years ago, his thesis was that one should not forgive unless the person repented, very sensible but not very spiritual, anyway forgiveness is overated, its not one of my convictions. we traveled back to london on the train together and i protected him from boisterous pathans who just kept talking and talking, the rabbi slept i ministered to my co-religionists. i got loads of priestly fan mail, even some from ahmadiyyas. aslo i recal now that i did some pastoral care when approached on one occassion by an Israeli reservist colonel whose daughters boyfriend was a vlack muslim jazz musician, he was funny turned with a huge encylopedia judaica open at a page about some 17th century egyptian rabbi who he said was his ancestor, he didnt look it and i guess he just wanted to fit in even though we were in london, his daughter had and told him to go to hell, despite my best efforts.

        everyone is everywhere.

      • Mooser
        November 24, 2011, 1:20 pm

        “That is why Kosher certification has become a job of well-trained professionals.”

        See Failed

      • Potsherd2
        November 24, 2011, 2:38 pm

        Kosher certification has become a racket, part of the yeshiva full employment act. They don’t hand out those certificates for free.

  7. American
    November 24, 2011, 9:49 am

    Had to look up halal, it says Islam approved food. How is that any different from kosher or Jews who abstain from pork or shellfish?

  8. Avi_G.
    November 24, 2011, 9:55 am

    So having Kosher certified everything, from salt to candy, pasta and bread is OK. But, oh the horror when meat is Halal. Wow.

    During the Cold War, the propaganda machine threw everything it could at the Soviet Union. By the end of the Cold War, many realized that propaganda was based on lies.

    Now that the enemy du jour is the Middle East, then Islam must be vilified. Alas, it just so happens that the empire’s propaganda overlaps with Israel’s propaganda. So, it’s good times for Zionist Americans.

    • dumvitaestspesest
      November 24, 2011, 11:08 am

      You are very correct Avi_G.
      It’s all a big part of a simple, yet very effective, working for ages, Propaganda Machine. You develop a label, a “brand-name”, and you start using it (like a stamp), possible in whatever and whenever situations.
      Geller is using interchangeably ,a few labels : islam=terrorist, islam =slaughter, islam=intolerance etc. She sticks this label in whatever and whenever situations.
      Even in poor, dead, innocent Butterball ,oh my gosh ,”t-u-r-k-e-y”.
      Now, the ” turkey” advanced to the status of a scary “boogieman”
      in the eyes of many.

  9. Potsherd2
    November 24, 2011, 10:00 am

    I’m dubious about Butterball turkeys being truly halal. Is the name of Allah invoked at the moment of the slaughter of each bird? I doubt it.

    But the fact is that kosher slaughter, which Geller does not condemn, is even more “torturous” than halal.

    If Butterball turkeys are not kosher [they aren’t], it’s because of the post-slaughter processing required.

    • dumvitaestspesest
      November 24, 2011, 10:20 am

      Geller does not condemn “kosher”, because she is Jewish.
      So kosher has to be kosher.

      • dumvitaestspesest
        November 24, 2011, 10:46 am

        Btw , those kosher or halal practices made a lot of sense back then, many years ago ,when refrigerators didn’t existed, but the outside temperatures were as hot, as they are now.
        Draining blood of an animal was a very important part of the ritual, because blood borne pathogens can be very dangerous and ,especially at that time, they were deadly.
        People used to say prayers before killing an animal because food in general wasn’t someting that would come easy.
        They had to work hard to get it.
        In Poland, many older people still kiss a bread and make a sign of the cross on it , before cutting the first piece off it. Out of respect for the basic food that kept many alive, in times , when the food was very scarce. They wouldn’t throw, willingly, even a tiny crumb of it, to waste. If it got stale or dry, they would give it to farm animals. People ,who went through a war or some other tough times ,appreciate and are thankful for a basic daily food.
        Our generations take it for granted. They waste so much of it.
        On the other hand , the quality of the food that we eat now is so much worse ,than many years ago.
        Most of the time we eat pure junk, stuffed with so many preservatives, chemicals, and what have you ,that even calling it
        “the food” is offensive.

    • seafoid
      November 24, 2011, 12:08 pm

      But the fact is that kosher slaughter, which Geller does not condemn, is even more “torturous” than halal.
      link to


  10. FreddyV
    November 24, 2011, 10:24 am

    More anti Islam rubbish.

    Something similar came out in the UK earlier this year, so I did a bit of research.

    Halal butchery is important for Muslims, doesn’t apply to Jews as they eat kosher and is irrelevant for atheists. The only difference between Halal and Kosher as I understand is that Halal butchers say a prayer whilst slaughter and Kosher butchers don’t. The blessing is made at the table.

    But this woman is just trying to upset Christians who don’t know their Bibles and create more divisions between Christians and Muslims.

    Here’s what the Bible says on the matter: Christians are at liberty to eat anything under New Testament instruction. There are passages that state when it is inappropriate, but those passages refer to causing offence to others, causing weaker brethren to stumble in their faith, (see 1 Corintians 8) or in the case of someone presenting food to you and telling you it’s origin specifically to offend you, you should refuse for the other person’s sake.

    1 Corinthians 10:25-30

    25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”

    27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

    So putting this in a modern day context, if a turkey is marked as ‘Halal’, don’t buy it. They only market produce as Halal for that specific market, which is specialised so no problem. If no one is telling you it’s Halal, you’re all good.

    Stick that one in your pipe and smoke it Pamela Geller!

    • Potsherd2
      November 24, 2011, 11:35 am

      The schochet does indeed say a prayer at slaughter.

      • john h
        November 24, 2011, 2:25 pm

        But this woman is just trying to upset Christians who don’t know their Bibles and create more divisions between Christians and Muslims.

        The objection to halal meat by Christian right-wingers has nothing to do with alleged animal cruelty. It boils down to the fact that “an Islamic prayer is recited” while the animal is killed.

        halal meat is that one which comes from animal who is butchered by cutting its throat while citing verse start in the of God and he is mighty.

        Simply said by saying those verses we are bowing before the authority of God and saying that God has the power to give and take life we are nothing but his creation.

        There is nothing strange with halal food only verses are cited thats all its like saying in the name of God master of life and death i am slaughtering this animal for benefit i.e food. (comment from Hasham)

        It is not “offered in sacrifice” in this prayer, and although Jews, Muslims and Christians see God in a different way, it is still the same god, and not in that sense a false god or idol, so Christians can have no valid objection.

      • FreddyV
        November 25, 2011, 5:13 am

        I agree totally with what you say with regard to the same God, although many Christians believe (incorrectly) that Allah of the Qur’an is a pagan god from pre-islamic times. This is irrespective for us as Christians as we are at liberty to eat anything. 1 Corinthians basically says that you can eat what you want, but in keeping with New Testament teaching, it asks you to consider the position of others. To paraphrase 1 Corintians 10:28, it’s basically saying that if someone puts food in front of you and tries to upset you by challenging your faith, then don’t eat it. Not for your sake, but for their sake.

        I hope that makes sense and I hope you all enjoyed Thanksgiving.

    • Mooser
      November 24, 2011, 1:25 pm

      “Christians are at liberty to eat anything…”

      Is their something in the New Testament which requires Christians to guzzle every goddam drop of booze in the house when you invite them over? I mean, I’m all for hospitality, and we keep open house (especially since the front door fell off during a fall storm) here at Moosehall, but sometimes I wonder if I am being taken advantage of.

      • FreddyV
        November 24, 2011, 2:09 pm

        Interestingly enough, I have a friend who is really involved in AA. Apparently, one of the largest demographics is Plymouth Brethren. They don’t have technology, so much of their time is spent socialising, which involves a lot of drinking.

      • piotr
        November 24, 2011, 11:35 pm

        “They wouldn’t throw, willingly, even a tiny crumb of it, to waste.”

        dumvitaestspesest forgot to mention that this reverence extends to other grain products, and also to potatoes and their liquid derivatives. So make it “They wouldn’t throw even a tiny drop of it to waste.”

        Importantly for you, Moose, this attitude does not extend to wine, Try to stock a case of that (starting a 2.99!):

        Manischewitz Cream Red Concord Kosher NV

        A sweet but balanced wine with a velvety mouth feel. The distinct aroma and flavor of fresh Concord grapes with confectionery notes.

      • Keith
        November 25, 2011, 12:45 am

        MOOSER- “Is their something in the New Testament which requires Christians to guzzle every goddam drop of booze in the house when you invite them over?”

        If you want to put a quick stop to this serve Mogen David.

  11. GalenSword
    November 24, 2011, 10:54 am

    At least some of the slaughterhouses that produce glatt kosher meat sell as halal the meat that does not meat glatt kosher standards. If I am not mistaken, this practice was fairly common throughout North African and the ME among Jewish Arabs. (Generally slaughter among non-Ashkenazi Jews meats the glatt [basar halaq] standard.)

  12. American
    November 24, 2011, 11:06 am

    Well damn, now they are trying to steal Thanksgiving..LOL

    “Newly presented historical information, however, may swing the annual autumnal pendulum back in favor of participation in what now appears to have begun as a holiday with both a patent Jewish theme and associated rituals.”

    Gawd!…Time for another history lesson. The ‘first’ real American Thanksgiving took place at Jamestown, Va in Dec., 1619, to give thanks after a year of the English colonist almost starving to death. The second ‘Thanksgiving” took place at Plymouth in 1921, a year after the Dutch pilgrims landed, about 13 years after the Jamestown settlement. The Plymouth fall date instead of the Dec date was the was we ended up using for whatever reason.

    Jamestown and Plymouth

    Traveling aboard the Susan Constant, Godspeed and Discovery, 104 men landed in Virginia in 1607 at a place they named Jamestown. This was the first permanent English settlement in the New World.

    Thirteen years later, 102 settlers aboard the Mayflower landed in Massachusetts at a place they named Plymouth. With these two colonies, English settlement in North America was born.


    Jamestown offered anchorage and a good defensive position. Warm climate and fertile soil allowed large plantations to prosper.

    Plymouth provided good anchorage and an excellent harbor. Cold climate and thin, rocky soil limited farm size. New Englanders turned to lumbering, shipbuilding, fishing and trade.


    Economic motives prompted colonization in Virginia. The Virginia Company of London, organized in 1606, sponsored the Virginia Colony. Organizers of the company wanted to expand English trade and obtain a wider market for English manufactured goods. They naturally hoped for financial profit from their investment in shares of company stock.

    Freedom from religious persecution motivated the Pilgrims to leave England and settle in Holland, where there was more religious freedom. However, after a number of years the Pilgrims felt that their children were being corrupted by the liberal Dutch lifestyle and were losing their English heritage. News of the English Colony in Virginia motivated them to leave Holland and settle in the New World.


    Inexperience, unwillingness to work, and the lack of wilderness survival skills led to bickering, disagreements, and inaction at Jamestown. Poor Indian relations, disease, and the initial absence of the family unit compounded the problems.

    Cooperation and hard work were part of the Pilgrim’s lifestyle. Nevertheless, they too were plagued with hunger, disease, and environmental hazards.


    The settlers at Jamestown were members of the Anglican faith, the official Church of England.

    The Pilgrims were dissenters from the Church of England and established the Puritan or Congregational Church.


    In 1619, the first representative legislative assembly in the New World met at the Jamestown church. It was here that our American heritage of representative government was born. Since New England was outside the jurisdiction of Virginia’s government, the Pilgrims established a self-governing agreement of their own, the “Mayflower Compact.”


    The Virginia colonists settled in the territory of a strong Indian empire or chiefdom. English relations with the Powhatan Indians were unstable from the beginning. Vast differences in culture, philosophies, and the English desire for dominance were obstacles too great to overcome. After the Indian uprising in 1622, the colonists gave up attempts to christianize and live peacefully with the Powhatans.

    Prior to the Pilgrims’ arrival, an epidemic wiped out the majority of the New England Indians. Several survivors befriended and assisted the colonists. Good relations ended in 1636 when the Massachusetts Bay Puritans declared war on the Pequot Tribe and Plymouth was dragged into the conflict.


    On December 4, 1619 settlers stepped ashore at Berkeley Hundred along the James River and, in accordance with the proprietor’s instruction that “the day of our ship’s arrival … shall be yearly and perpetually kept as a day of thanksgiving,” celebrated the first official Thanksgiving Day.

    In the fall of 1621, the Pilgrims held a celebration to give thanks to God for his bounty and blessings. This occasion was the origin of the traditional Thanksgiving celebration date as we know it today.


    The growth and development of these two English colonies, though geographically separated, contributed much to our present American heritage of law, religion, government, custom and language. As Governor Bradford of Plymouth stated,

    “Thus out of small beginnings greater things have been produced by His hand that made all things of nothing, and gives being to all things that are; and as one small candle may light a thousand, so the light here kindled hath shown unto many, yea, in some sort, to our whole Nation.”

    The charter of the Virginia Company stated,

    “Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the giver of all goodness, for every plantation which our father hath not planted shall be rooted out.”


    Bradford, William. Bradford’s History. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1908.

    Breen, T. H. Puritans and Adventurers. New York: Oxford University Press, 1980.

    Hatch, Charles. The First 17 Years. Virginia 350th Anniversary Celebration Corporation, 1957.

    Jennings, Francis. The Invasion of America. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1975.

    Robbins, Roland W. Pilgrim John Alden’s Progress. Plymouth, Massachusetts: Pilgrim Society, 1969.

    This is a good site for learning about Jamestown, the first permanent colony in America and seat of the first organized American government, with links to the names of the Englishmen from the London Virginia Company who landed at Jamestown. Also great link that shows the timeline of all the previous attempts at establishing colonies in the new world.

    Happy Thanksgiving.

    • annie
      November 24, 2011, 11:48 am

      american, this new allegations about thanksgiving, according to your article, is based on a 2010 book by british banker turned historian nick bunker
      Making Haste from Babylon: The Mayflower Pilgrims and Their World: A New History/ Knopf. it is his first book. it offers to shed new light on thanksgiving. last year he wrote this daily beast article The Real Story Behind Thanksgiving

      from the horses mouth, here’s bunker:

      [The Pilgrims] said Thanksgiving psalms like Jews, sometimes they fasted and sometimes they ate and drank, and like their British cousins they puffed themselves up with national pride.

      Up to a point, questions such as these arise because the Pilgrims said so little about that first venison dinner in 1621. In this case, their narrator was Edward Winslow. Usually a diligent observer, nonetheless Winslow skimmed over the episode in two sentences. By leaving so much unspoken, he created a gap that historians have filled with speculation.

      Can we do better than that? Certainly we can. Terse though he was, Winslow tells us that 90 Wampanoags took part. So the English settlers definitely shared in a Native American nickommo, whatever else it may have been. We can also restore the meaning of early Thanksgivings in New England by coming at it from another angle, equally authentic. We find it in Judaism and the Hebrew scriptures.

      If you were English, and you wished to express gratitude to God, you would turn to one majestic Biblical text before any other. It speaks about the wilderness of the Sinai, about danger and deliverance, about the journey of the Israelites across the Red Sea, and about the duty to give thanks when the exodus is complete. The text is Psalm 107. In the reign of Elizabeth I, when the realm survived a plot, a plague, or the Spanish Armada, her subjects went to church and gave thanks to the Almighty, using the same psalm: “ We will offer unto him the sacrifice of Thanksgiving: and tell out his works with gladness.”

      So at Provincetown, when the Mayflower first dropped anchor in 1620, the Pilgrims did likewise. For them, the psalm possessed a still deeper resonance. Keen scholars of Hebrew, which they saw as the original language of God, the Pilgrims knew that Psalm 107 was the source of the Jewish thanksgiving prayer, the birkat ha-gomel. They owned books by an English scholar, Henry Ainsworth, who used the Jewish philosopher Maimonides to show that this was so. The birkat ha-gomel was the prayer that every devout Jew should say, upon safe arrival after a dangerous voyage. The Pilgrims said it too.

      more at the link

      so, it is hypothetical. and this is how myths are made and develop over the years.

      • gloopygal
        November 24, 2011, 12:06 pm

        Annie and American,

        Zionist Jews might well be correct in linking Thanksgiving to their theological ideas:

        “In 1637, over 700 Pequot men, females and kids gathered for their Green Corn Festival. In the predawn morning, they have been surrounded by Dutch and English mercenaries who ordered them to come outside. These who obeyed have been shot or clubbed to death even though ladies and youngsters huddled inside the longhouse and had been burned alive. The next day the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony declared this travesty ‘A Day of Thanksgiving’ given that helpless individuals were murdered.”

      • annie
        November 24, 2011, 12:24 pm

        gloopy, thanksgiving ‘belongs’ to all americans. religious ones make it about their religion, secular ones like to think of it as a non religious holiday, and then there are the realists.

      • American
        November 24, 2011, 1:41 pm

        “and then there are the realists”

        Count me among the realist.
        You know people who wnat to can make anything out of the bible….and when Jews want to claim something as Jewish they resort to the bible for ‘a connection’ because christians also use the bible. I can promise you that none of the Church of England Jamestowners in any way associated their Thanksgiving cermony with anything remotely in the Jewish tradition.
        There are even people who claim the first Thanksgiving in the new world was had by the Spanish when they had big feasts after being on board ships for long period and thanking their God for being safely delivered to land.. And then others who say the first American type Thanksgivings should be credited to the native Indians who use to have periodic feast to thank the Great Spirit for giving them the fruits of the earth.

        We always have wannabe groups or wannabe individuals who want to take credit or claim or associate themselves with some tradition. Many societies and people have similar traditions to others that have nothing to do with the others traditions, aren’t based on others, are naturally occuring based on events in their own time and circumstances.
        At the Jamestown Museum there is a painting of an Indian offering a bird and ears of corn to the colonist. To me if the American Thanksgiving should be related to anything other than what it is it is probably the American natives and their feast in honor of the earth’s bounty.

      • MHughes976
        November 24, 2011, 2:26 pm

        In 1623 the extraordinarily precocious Puritan John Milton wrote his powerful hymn ‘Let us with a gladsome mind’, choosing Psalm 136 over 107 as his basis. Best semi-original poem by a 15 year old? 107 is actually less nationalist and more universal in spirit than 136. The Psalms could inspire a Platonist like George Herbert – ‘the Church with psalms must shout, no door can keep them out. But above all the heart must bear the longest part’. But the nationalist/imperial theme was certainly there too. I’ve just been having a look at Cotton Mather’s ‘Wonders of the Invisible World’ which refers to New England as a land reclaimed from the devil, very much recalling Israel in Palestine.

  13. dahoit
    November 24, 2011, 11:07 am

    The Woodmere Witch of terror hasn’t been droned yet?
    And of course everything is a double standard in our hypocrisy filled world,as Kosher is never addressed in the same light as halal.
    And that statement of good times for Zionism is whistling in the dark,as the world has woken up to its inherent contradictions of moral turpitude and malevolent actions.
    Only the Zionists might feel that way,but they are obviously insane or mentally deficient.(the nerve!)

  14. annie
    November 24, 2011, 11:57 am

    krauss, i found this comment in the comment section of geller’s article

    I am not a Jew so please dear Jewish readers correct this if incorrect. From Wikipedia

    “Shechita is the ritual slaughter of mammals and birds according to Jewish dietary laws. The act is performed by severing the tracea, esophagus, carotid arteries and jugular veins usingan extremely sharp blade (“chalef”) and allowing the blood to drain out.”

    Is this not identical to Halal slaughter? Mohammad incorporated a lot of rituals from the Jewish faith into his religious creation, Islam. Should we call for a boycott of Kosher meat also? I think not.

    also this link

    Most of the time it is seen that Muslims and Jews tend to believe that Kosher is similar to halal and vice versa. In linguistic terms, both the terms kosher and halal are almost similar. Kosher is a Hebrew word that means proper or fit and Halal is an Arabic word that means permissible. However, kosher and halal are two different entities that have difference in their meaning and spirit.

    Kosher and halal are mainly associated with the food of Muslims and Jewish people. Though kosher and halal are food laws, it also has great significance in other rituals that they both follow in their life. Kosher and halal have their roots in their respective scriptures, Kosher is identified in Holy Bible and Torah and Halal is mentioned in Quran.

    First of all lets see the difference in slaughtering of animals in kosher and halal. Though the slaughtering is the same, Jews, who follow kosher, do not pronounce the name of God on each animal they slaughter. They think that it is wasteful to utter the name of god out of context. They only perform prayers on the first and last animal that they slaughter. Muslims who follow halal rituals always pronounce the name of God on each animal that is slaughtered.

    it sounds to me like the only difference between the two is who prays over the animal and how often.

  15. Sheldonrichman
    November 24, 2011, 12:00 pm

    I am certainly not thankful for people who find advantage in fanning other people’s bigoted hysteria.

    • Chaos4700
      November 24, 2011, 12:12 pm

      It’s disgraceful. It’s like the only thing that’s ever on the minds of these Zionist neocon warmonger freaks is KILL KILL KILL brown people with funny accents, and if you can’t do that at home, then find reasons to jail ’em and humiliate them and mock their culture.

      I’m sick of it. It’s just about gotten to the point where I have almost nothing to be thankful for because these lying nihilistic militant freaks have chewed up and gorged themselves on everything that was great and good about America, and now we’re left with what they blow out their other end when they’re done with the hate mongering and the war profiteering.

      I’m going to have nephews now who will grow up not knowing anything BUT war because of people like Krauss and Witty and hophmi and eee. It’s disgraceful.

  16. Potsherd2
    November 24, 2011, 12:15 pm

    iirc, halal slaughter allows a limited stunning that renders the animal unconscious but not dead, which is more humane than kosher slaughter, which does not. Otherwise, the processes are the same, given that halal laws were based on Jewish laws.

  17. Taxi
    November 24, 2011, 12:19 pm

    “Forced halal is not what this country ought to be about.”

    “Forcced” halal?!


    What a turkey!

    Please DO NOT tell us what you think this “country ought to be about”.

    Okay enough ’bout you krauss.

    Hey mondo folks how can y’all be talking ‘turkey’ and forget all ’bout this classic:

    • lysias
      November 24, 2011, 3:26 pm

      If eating halal is forced, it’s not forced by Islam, which doesn’t care what non-Muslims eat, but by capitalism, which finds it more cost-efficient to market foods that Muslims are as willing to eat as others. And this country is very much about capitalism.

  18. justicewillprevail
    November 24, 2011, 12:25 pm

    Terrorist turkeys! Yikes. Those goddam muslim turkeys, surely Geller should install a metal detector in her kitchen, just in case, y’know. Who knows what’s inside those suicide turkeys.
    It’s so hysterical, but as usual, the nonsense reveals a typical mindset – anything associated with Islam is by definition terrorist, savage etc etc. Anything associated with Judaism, like kosher, even though effectively the same practice with some minor differences, is all sweetness and light. What tripe. Actually, there’s an idea for her, eat tripe for Thanksgiving, kind of a ritual eating of your own words.

  19. iRevolt
    November 24, 2011, 1:33 pm

    Geller is a complete and utter loon. I do not see how eating halal meat will in any way hurt you. The argument shouldn’t be that you don’t “have to” eat the turkey but that the halal turkey is in no way detrimental to your health. If you’re a crazed religious fanatic like Geller it may pain you to chew and swallow the turkey. I wonder how many of her insane followers are now crying in their bathrooms after finding out that butterball whole turkeys may be “halal”

    • dumvitaestspesest
      November 24, 2011, 2:56 pm

      Nothing will satysfiy Mrs Geller.
      We may only hope that a piece of turkey will not get stuck in her ,tight with anger and hatred throat , otherwise we’ll hear (or not) that she was forced to consume that “halal meat” with a “torturous “method applied by a surgeon.

  20. Mooser
    November 24, 2011, 2:15 pm

    Of course, I follow a very, very strict set of dietary laws. I only eat food I like, and refuse to eat things which don’t taste good. Yes, it’s a big sacrifice, but my religious scruples demand it!

    • Mooser
      November 24, 2011, 2:16 pm

      And I don’t care what anybody says, scruple is pretty good stuff. I believe it started as a Pennsylvania Dutch dish.

  21. Robert Werdine
    November 24, 2011, 6:24 pm

    I wonder if Ms. Geller knows that it was from the Mishna and the halakah the Prophet derived many rituals of diet and hygiene, such as ceremonial purification before prayer.

    “O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.” (Sura v, 6)

    Or that Mohammed adopted the Jewish institution of the Sabbath, marking Friday as the Muslim day of prayer.

    Or that the Qur’an, like the Mosaic Law, forbids the eating the blood and flesh of swine, or dogs.

    “Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression.” (Sura v, 3)

    Or that Jewish and Muslim eschatology—devils, angels, Satan, hell, heaven, the resurrection, the Last Judgment—are virtually the same. Mohammed accepts the principal revelations: the Pentateuch to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and, of course, the Qur’an to Mohammed. The Prophet evinces agreement of the Qur’an with the Bible as evidence of his holy mission.

    Not that anyone will reciprocate, but Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

    • Frances
      November 25, 2011, 1:43 am

      Eh, I doubt Ms Geller gives a damn about being right. Her job is to fear-monger.

      Happy Thanksgiving.

  22. Whizdom
    November 24, 2011, 7:23 pm

    Of course, the Agriprocessors Rubaskin’s did label their processed meats as produced in accordance with religious standards. . All the difference in the world. The American way, immigrant child labor and unsanitary and inhumane (for both the workers and the animals) conditions. That’s free enterprise and free markets

  23. Amar
    November 24, 2011, 11:06 pm

    I think Geller knows perfectly well that Halal = Kosher, but also knows that most people reading her rubbish are not as well informed. So she is merely taking advantage of her readers ignorance.

    • Charon
      November 25, 2011, 12:01 am

      Reader ignorance is their number one tactic, especially in Israeli PR. To paraphrase a Mitch Hedberg joke, why do they advertise Casinos with people winning money when winning is what happens the least?

  24. piotr
    November 25, 2011, 12:21 am

    Check this:

    As xenophobic rants go. this is indeed in the league of Manishevitz Concord Cream rather than Lafite-Rotschild.

    It is absurd on so many levels that it is hard to start (but check the link above). First, if I buy Pamela’s story lock, stock, and barrel, I find it immensely distressing: not only my favorite bird is raised in inhumane overcrowded condition and fed unpalatable factory diet, but its suffering are prolonged by extra few second by an illiterate migrant worker from El Salvador he mumbles “Bismillah” in the process. And this remains secret.

    It is so infuriating that next year I will hunt my own turkey (they are surprisingly numerous in these parts, although I have neither skill nor equipment; once I was practically assaulted by a particularly cheeky individual).

    There is not way to phatom jihadist logic so it may be more fruiteful to answer: why now? who?

    Why now part is easy: recently Butterball got a new corporate master, the share hitherto owned by Smithfield Foods was purchased by Seaboard, which is a majority owned subsidiary of Seaboard Flour, which is owned by the Bresky family. No doubt, Bresky’s are some suspicious swarty Middle Eastern types.

    Seaboard is a majority owned subsidiary of Seaboard Flour, which is owned by the Bresky family.

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