Sadly, Americans need permission from Israeli heroes to stick a fork in Zionism

on 25 Comments

Our own State Department said 64 years ago that establishing Israel would just create one war after another in the region. Yes, right up to the Iraq war. Moshe Dayan’s widow Ruth, 95, says the same thing, speaking to Rula Jebreal, at the Daily Beast: (thanks to Nima Shirazi):

“I am a proud Israeli. I’ve lived through every war, endured every moment of suffering, but I never stopped believing in peace. I lost friends and family members. I’m a peacemaker, but the current Israeli government does not know how to make peace. We move from war to war, and this will never stop. I think Zionism has run its course.”

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25 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    November 2, 2011, 10:54 am

    Sometimes DoS gets things right. In the old days, when they still employed (had not yet fired) “old China hands”, old Arab hands, etc., DoS had some useful ideas.

    Now it is all politicized which — in these oligarchic times — means controlled by big money. We tend to notice BIG ZIONISM. OWS notices BIG FINANCE.

    –Off Topic Alert–

    However, BIG OIL is pushing through the so-called Keystone XL pipeline to transfer — from Canada to USA’s ports — very dirty oil from Canada’s very dirty tar sands extraction stations. The prospect for terrible environmental damage to USA from building and running the pipeline is enormous, but DoS is pushing it. Let global warming be damned as well as the more immediate environmental damage.

  2. seafoid
    November 2, 2011, 11:04 am

    It is like raising a child . What sort of values was Israel raised with ?

    After graduating, Raine began his work at Hull, where he did time with murderers, rapists, and pedophiles. “The main thing I learned was that I really can’t change these people,” he says. “It brought me back to kids, to earlier stages, thinking we’ve got to look at the earlier, predisposing factors, when maybe we can do something.” Along with several other researchers, he has pioneered the science of neurodevelopmental criminology, which has established that among adult offenders, juvenile delinquents, and even younger children there are features in the brain that seem to reduce fear, impair decision making, and blunt emotional reactions to others’ distress.

    link to

    • pabelmont
      November 2, 2011, 12:21 pm

      Israel was raised on pogroms and holocaust. at least on stories about them. Then it became criminal to steal from Palestinians, dehumanized them (in Israeli eyes) and further mistreated them. they “gave themselves permission” to misbehave and told themselves stories to justify the behavior. The high schools train the kids for the army with hate and fear.

      Hard to see how people raised this way can change. BDS aims at changing the OLIGARCHY which controls Israel — in the pocketbook. BDS does not aim to change the horrible victimhood-allows-all psychology.

    • Charon
      November 2, 2011, 12:35 pm

      Sociopaths are a product of their environment. I was born in 1980 so if I was Zionist and born in Israel, I would’ve grown up at war with Lebanon which gave way to Hezbollah which I’m told are terrorists who want to kill me.

      There would be the ‘peace process’ that led to one ‘partner’ being assassinated (by a Zionist) and the other being attributed to a wave of suicide bombings. I would have seen Iraq firing missiles at Tel-Aviv, both Intifadas, been told all my life that Arabs don’t want peace and want to push me to the sea (and are mortal biblical enemies of thousands of years).

      The Gaza disengagement, rockets, mandatory military service, Hezbollah war, Cast Lead, Hamas infamous charter, bla bla bla….

      That is in addition to growing up with a constant military presence as being a normal part of life, fictional propaganda as history, the holocaust, being told the world wants to holocaust me given the opportune moment and the price to pay for Israel’s destruction (whether demographic, symbolic, or physical) is another holocaust… I could write a novel but I’ll stop. You get the idea.

      These are not normal conditions. The environment and their propaganda media explanation for these events would turn anybody into a brainwashed sociopath. On the other hand, imagine growing up Palestinian. Zionists can mention baby suicide bombers, rockets, and martyrs all the want. There are significantly less sociopaths on the Palestinian side. Perhaps it is genetic and Zionism is full of psychopaths. Either way there is no cure for either condition.

      • dimadok
        November 2, 2011, 2:37 pm

        What a pile of filth!
        You’ve said “it is genetic” and stopped short. Why would you? Just say it plain and simple- Jews ( aka Zionists) are genetically predisposed to psychopathy. You are disgusting individual.

      • mig
        November 2, 2011, 4:42 pm

        Zionist program has been in use over an hundred year now. And it fits nicely to what Charon said. We are waiting anxiously that Israel starts to act other way. So far no signs of progress in that field.

        You can at any time dimadok proof that human side of zionism….

      • seafoid
        November 2, 2011, 5:08 pm


        That is one sh*t Israeli education system.

        Jews ( aka Zionists) are genetically predisposed

        but Charon wrote

        Sociopaths are a product of their environment

        Compare 10 Israeli Zionist 16 year olds and 10 Reform Jews from Chicago. It’s not about being Jewish. It’s about living in Israel.

      • Potsherd2
        November 2, 2011, 7:30 pm

        So, dimadok, you must therefore agree with Charon that growing up in Zionist Israel produces sociopathy?

        Is that the origin of your paranoia, too?

      • tod
        November 2, 2011, 3:36 pm

        It’s pretty hard to show you’re a sociopath when you have no power. Who are you going to abuse?
        But abuse breeds abuse, and if Israel falls one day there will be bloody retaliations for sure and probably all kind of inhuman treatment. The difference here would be that Palestinians would have some motive for their actions, the Israelis do not.

  3. Dan Crowther
    November 2, 2011, 11:04 am

    Me too, Ruth.

    I wonder if Ruth’s idea of peace is like that of her late husband:

    We don’t have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and will see how this procedure will work out. For now, it works out. Let’s say the truth. We want peace. If there is no peace, we will maintain military rule and we will have four to five military compounds on the mountains, and they will sit ten years under the Israeli military regime.
    - Moshe Dayan

    • seafoid
      November 2, 2011, 11:34 am

      “you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go”

      That is what the YESHA project was based on. Treat them like dogs and they will leave. Except they never left. Israeli policy assumes they have left. Which is why UNESCO is such a headwrecker.

      The Palestinians learnt the lesson of the Nakba. Even if it was just a room in a refugee camp it was better than being a successful businessman in Michigan. The Israelis can never understand that. They never had a homeland, did they ?

      • Citizen
        November 2, 2011, 12:18 pm

        I dunno, but Dayan’s widow says Jewish Israelis are voting with their feet out of Israel in a brain drain. Also, she remembers she split from her hubby after he put Arab women in jail & she went to the jail to get them out to make rugs.

  4. tod
    November 2, 2011, 11:17 am

    Translation: “I’ve suffered a lot while pushing Arabs outside Israel, but now I’m old and I think we should be kind with our neighbours and let them have the crowded, bombed ghettoes they live in. It’s pretty clear they’re not going to leave anyway.”

    • Citizen
      November 2, 2011, 12:20 pm

      That’s not a fair comment, tod, at least to my mind after reading what she said. Please go read the piece in Daily Beast. If you have, then maybe your reading between the lines is true? I don’t know. I never read anything about her before.

      • Taxi
        November 2, 2011, 3:24 pm

        tod is right.

        She’s like when army generals speak their truth about war the day after they’ve retired.

        It’s of course always a good thing for the soul to make good honest confessionals. But really, one cannot escape the fact that she was married to one of the most heinous colonialist war criminals of the 20th century – the dude came with an eye-patch, symbolically. She mated with him despite knowing of his murderous racism.

        It’s the fear of god that’s speaking her words. Not the genuine love of Palestine – which in case you forget, is actually Historic Palestine and not the post Nakba Palestine.

      • tod
        November 2, 2011, 6:31 pm

        I also had a comment on Citizen’s opinion but it din’t got approved. I was pretty much saying what you said, probably in a very bad way.

      • seafoid
        November 2, 2011, 6:37 pm

        Americans need to go back to sleep

        link to

        Let Israel take care of everything

      • Taxi
        November 3, 2011, 12:02 am

        Citizen is a good man. He already told us he don’t know much about madam Dyan. He just for a moment fell for the sentimental – not the realmental.

  5. lobewyper
    November 2, 2011, 3:00 pm

    I think we have to give Ruth Dayan (in contrast to Mr. Goldstone) a great deal of credit for refusing to compromise her principles and values. She is a courageous and good person who has managed to maintain (and probably–enhance) her personal integrity over the course of her long life thus far. Ruth obviously values human beings generally instead of a particular subset of the species. Ruth, you are a true role model and inspiration!

  6. Richard Witty
    November 2, 2011, 8:51 pm

    She did not renounce Zionism in the slightest, but urged its reform.

  7. thetumta
    November 2, 2011, 11:12 pm

    So Phil, have you got past all of this? It could be?You don’t need permission from Israeli heroes to stick a fork in Zionism? Do you?


    • annie
      November 3, 2011, 2:33 am

      You don’t need permission from Israeli heroes to stick a fork in Zionism?

      wtf? he sticks a fork in zionism 24/7 and he doesn’t do it anonymously like you do. why are you interrogating him. it’s offensive and rude.

  8. Frankie P
    November 3, 2011, 12:35 am


    While he doesn’t need permission from Israeli heroes, he surely feels the pressure from the tribe. In addition, Phil Weiss claims that putting his identity as an American before that of being a Jew represents “the achievement of my life”. Do you feel the weight of that statement? And yet, on a thread yesterday or the day before, when tod said that no Jews should be involved in the investigation of Israel (I’m paraphrasing), Phil showed up on the comments board, upset about such a comment. How could a man who considers putting his identity as an American before that as a Jew the achievement of his life question why a non-Jew would be skeptical about giving responsiblity for investigating Israel to another member of the “elite identity” tribe? How many American Jews are unable to make such an earth-shattering achievement, Phil? From the horse’s mouth:

    “I believe all people act out of self-interest. And Jews who define themselves at some level as Jews — like myself for instance — are concerned with a Jewish self-interest. Which in my case is: an end to Zionism. A theory of political life based on altruism or concern for victims purely is doomed to fail.”

    Atzmon: Openly and bluntly, Weiss confirmed what many of us have been saying for a very long time: it is not solely ‘altruism’ or concern for Palestinians victims that motivates some of the most prominent Jewish campaigners and organisations, but it is also, as Weiss freely admits, ‘Jewish self-interest.’ I confessed to Weiss that I was overwhelmed by his frankness. I think that Weiss may well be the first Jewish activist to admit , or even to define the Judeo-centric impetus behind the Jewish- progressive political discourse. I decided to press it further, asking Weiss whether he considered himself to be ‘tribal’?

    And once again, Weiss’ answer was brave and honest, though he did start to express some frustration. He answered, “Yes I do at some level. And what bugs me about stuff you send me (I guess that Weiss was referring to Nahida’s article) is that I end up in the end inevitably and predictably at some site trashing Jewish religion, to which I have very little connection, though yes I feel some core ‘Id’** and this makes me think in the end, that dialogue with you will not help ME because I am interested in frying different fish. While you seem out rather reductively to prove the degeneracy of a religion which I’m sure is deeply problematic, as Islam is and the Church of Pedophilia…( sic)”

    However, I still do not grasp why Weiss thinks that I am interested to reductively ‘prove the degeneracy of a religion’ — I am not really interested in criticising the religion of Judaism, or any other religion for that matter: in fact, I am far more concerned with Jewish secularism and Jewish secular ideology.

    However, it was at that stage that I realised that Weiss was a perfect candidate for an interview. He certainly embodies the Jewish-progressive school of thought: a unique mixture of righteousness, charming self-love, mixed together with some deep intolerance towards other people’s belief systems.

    I went on to ask Weiss: “What does the word ‘Jewish’ mean for you?”

    Weiss was short and precise in his response : “My mother, my father, my grandparents, a family feeling, us-ness, in distinction to the Them.”

    I pressed Weiss further , asking him, “this ‘us-ness’ does it really extend beyond family and friends? Do you for instance, feel ‘us-ness’ with an Iraqi Jew?”, I wondered.

    ‘I think identity is multi-factorial,’ Weiss replied, ‘I feel American before I feel Jewish. I think that’s the achievement of my life, to have flipped those identities, and Jewish is second. I see Jewish as this great civilization that I am part of. That transcends borders, and it’s not Zionist. Zionism is like Shabbetai Tzvi, It’s a big chapter in a long story. Jews will survive this one too. Jews is: a sense of difference, yes, inevitably of elite identity, that’s part of Jewish history and one I struggle with. Jewish is a Story, a myth…’

    • annie
      November 3, 2011, 2:29 am

      And yet, on a thread yesterday or the day before, when tod said that no Jews should be involved in the investigation of Israel (I’m paraphrasing), Phil showed up on the comments board, upset about such a comment.

      showed up? who do you think minds this place, he’s frequently around! tod ask him a question so he responded and it did not seem to me he was upset in the least. tod ask phil “why should anyone trust anything that a Jew says regarding this subject?” and phil answered very non-upset and realistically:

      Philip Weiss November 1, 2011 at 6:19 pm [edit]

      why do you trust this website? many jews write on this website. most all of them are very clear about their attachments or non attachments to zionism, including even some zionists among the commenters

      tod should have asked ‘why do you trust any zionist on this subject?’ i don’t think it is fair to consign all jews to some box where they cannot be trusted wrt israel. that is ridiculous. day in and day out phil and adam focus on this blight of humanity as do scores of other very trustworthy jews. frankly it is just insulting anyone would even make this statement of the trust of jews (in general) when we know there are a multiptude of moral jewish voices.

      yes it bothers me questions about israel should solely be consigned to the jewish community AS IF others cannot be trusted, but that’s not the same as positing no jews should be trusted on the topic. it’s myopic and crazy. face the facts, probably the most informed people on the topic aside from palestinians are jews of the non zionist variety.

      and then to take away from the exchange he was upset? ridiculous! he stepped right up to the plate and responded absolutely appropriately. seriously, if you don’t trust phil and adam’s judgement or intent go elsewhere. they put their life into this as do countless other jews. i would trust them as i would phyllis bennis or cecile surasky or max or countless others. seriously, just cuz goldstone caved..really get over it.

      • annie
        November 3, 2011, 2:39 am

        oh and one more thing. for all you naysayers this IS news. when dayan’s wife says to stick a fork in zionsim that’s news regardless of whether you like her or not. it is news. and lots of people listen to her even if ya’ll could give a shit. it represents the tide turning. that’s news, get it? this site brings us the news.

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